lettuce-msg - 3/18/03 Lettuce in period. Recipes using lettuce. NOTE: See also the files: salads-msg, beets-msg, vegetables-msg, cabbages-msg, leeks-msg, onions-msg, lovage-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Question about period food Date: 7 Jan 1995 22:12:10 -0500 Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. Moreach asks, > GR> adds lettuce to the list explicitly, and catmint -- yes, catnip -- > >Is it a correct assumption that this lettuce would be more like one of the >modern leaf lettuces, such as red or romaine, instead of iceberg heads? I would tend to go with red or green leaf, endive, romaine, or something of the kind, but with the exception of endive, my authoritative source for the preference is, well, thin. Here's what my translation (sadly, I do not have a copy of the Latin with me up here) of Platina says under "On Preparing Lettuce": ... There are several varieties of this vegetable. Lacticaulis, sessilis, and crispa are praised above all others. It is planted all year in rich, damp, fertilized places, yet it is right to scatter the seed in winter cold. [This is Italy, remember.] .... There is serralia lettuce, which is wild, named from the saw, because on its back it is serrated. This is perhaps endive. Under "On Preparing Endive" he says I count endive among the varieties of lettuce.... I don't have with me any of the resources I'd usually use, either to trace the origin of iceberg lettuce (I have a vague sense that it's a relatively recent thing, but no conscious idea where I get that sense from) or to try to run down lacticaulis, sessilis, and crispa to find out exactly what they are. At any rate, iceberg lettuce is probably no worse a substitute for Platina's lettuce than ordinary supermarket carrots are for the Menagier's.... It's a general problem. Cheers, -- Angharad/Terry Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: destry at netcom.com (Fellwalker) Subject: Re: Question about period food Date: Sun, 8 Jan 1995 04:38:00 GMT Greg Rose (greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu) wrote: : Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. Moreach asks, : > GR> adds lettuce to the list explicitly, and catmint -- yes, catnip -- : > : >Is it a correct assumption that this lettuce would be more like one of the : >modern leaf lettuces, such as red or romaine, instead of iceberg heads? : I would tend to go with red or green leaf, endive, romaine, or something : of the kind, but with the exception of endive, my authoritative source : for the preference is, well, thin. .....snip........ : I don't have with me any of the resources I'd usually use, either to : trace the origin of iceberg lettuce (I have a vague sense that it's : a relatively recent thing, but no conscious idea where I get that : sense from) or to try to run down lacticaulis, sessilis, and crispa : to find out exactly what they are. : At any rate, iceberg lettuce is probably no worse a substitute for : Platina's lettuce than ordinary supermarket carrots are for the : Menagier's.... It's a general problem. This from an intensive library search...because I've been laying awake at night wondering.... The kind of Iceberg lettuce sold in grocery stores is just one type of Iceberg (and just one type of head-ed lettuce).Before the Middle Ages all lettuces (and cabbages) were loose-leaved types. During the Middle Ages as lettuces were increasingly grown in cooler climates they developed a more tightly furled set of inner leaves (the "head"...which was surrounded by loose leaves, like an unfurling rose. Like modern Iceberg types, the outer leaves would be dark green, and the inner leaves blanched from lack of exposure to sun).The same goes for cabbages. These were in turn selected and grown more often in those cold climates because of their increased resistance to the cold and their increased storage life. The loose leaved lettuces and Cos lettuces (like Romaine) were also grown. I'd say it would be safe to use any kind of lettuce that suits your fancy....(but what do I know? I am but a humble gardener... :) ----Max -- ...with rings on her fingers and bells on her toes... From: kathy.duffy at buckys.com (Kathy Duffy) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Question about period lettuce Date: Sun, 8 Jan 1995 15:59:00 GMT D>: Is it a correct assumption that this lettuce would be more like one of the >: modern leaf lettuces, such as red or romaine, instead of iceberg heads? D> I wish I had more reference on this,(I'm still working on that >carrot issue). Since there are at least 6 more types of lettuce than >I've ever seen in a grocery store, and since the types that are sold in >the US aren't the types that are popular in Europe (where most lettuces >were developed anyway)...it's probably not safe to assume that one (leaf) >is more period than the other (iceberg) without checking it out. For all >I can tell there's one that 's a crunchy leaf-head lettuce (not Romaine) that >could be older than either of them. (If anyone comes up with any info >please let me know and I'll add it to the research I come up with) From "Medieval English Gardens" by Teresa MacLean "The only vegetable that almost everyone grew, besides leeks, onions and garlic were pot vegetables, of which the most important was cabbage." Medieval vegetable gardening was largely and exercise in porray production. It has to be admitted, with regret, that the standard English method of cooking greens until they are a soggy mess is historically correct." ..."All kitchen gardeners grew kale of one sort or another, which cannot be said of any other vegetable outside the allium family." Then under the heading "Minor Pot Vegetables" she writes "For those of a hot humour who wanted to be cooled down after an overdose of 'hot' herbs like sorrel, there ws another herb and porray vegetable that was appropriately purpose grown: lettuce. Its medicinal value led the author of the southern English legends to write in 1290 'a fair herb,that men call lettuce' and this fair herb was made into syrups and plasters for the cure of 'hot' complaints. Herbal plasters were made of shredded lettuce leaves, bound together with eggs or a sticky paste, and applied to the affected area of skin. Lettuce plasters, like lettuce syrups and drinks were usually prescribed to cure liver and digestive disorders. The plants were pulled up, roots and all, to thin them out, and their seeds went into the medicine store." " Wild lettuce that fieldmen call skariols was easily picked and eaten, either in porray or with bread, but it doesn't have the same narcotic properties as lettuce, and was not brought into cultivation. The Romans ate lettuces raw, with salad dressing as we do today but the medievals grew them primarily for medicinal purposes and secondarily as porray, particularly as an addition to pea soup." "Endive grew wild in Southern England, but was cultivated for its strong, bitter flavor. The most common variety was the broad leaved chicory endive, which was used the same way as lettuce." It would appear from her writings on these vegetables that kale, white beets and cress were used, the way we use lettuce today. I tried to only quote the most relevant passages. Another source entitled In a Monastery Garden by Elizabeth and Reginald Peplow and written to be a popular source and not the scholarly work of MacLean's book merely states "The familiar green salad vegetable which in medieval days grew in loose-leaved formation provided the basis of the vegetables enjoyed by the monks for their main meal of the day. It was also used as a mild sedative for insomnia or restlessness." I did not see it mentioned in Hortulus another great medieval source. Lady Deirdre Ui Mhaille EK, Shire of Barren Sands kathy.duffy at buckys.com From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Question about period lettuce Date: 8 Jan 1995 22:27:32 -0500 Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. Lady Deirdre Ui Mhaille cites: >From "Medieval English Gardens" by Teresa MacLean > >"The only vegetable that almost everyone grew, besides leeks, onions and >garlic were pot vegetables, of which the most important was cabbage." > >Medieval vegetable gardening was largely and exercise in porray >production. It has to be admitted, with regret, that the standard >English method of cooking greens until they are a soggy mess is >historically correct." ..."All kitchen gardeners grew kale of one sort >or another, which cannot be said of any other vegetable outside the >allium family." Does Ms. MacLean cite any sources for her claim about the standard way of cooking greens? It is not supported by the (few) recipes I have seen for porray; it is also not supported by any other period sources of which I am aware. I would be very interested in seeing a primary source that supports this claim. Cheers, -- Angharad/Terry From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Question about period lettuce Date: 10 Jan 1995 05:24:55 -0500 Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. Lady Deirdre Ui Mhaille responds to me, responding to her: > >>Medieval vegetable gardening was largely and exercise in porray > >>production. It has to be admitted, with regret, that the standard > >>English method of cooking greens until they are a soggy mess is > >>historically correct." ..."All kitchen gardeners grew kale of one sort > >>or another, which cannot be said of any other vegetable outside the > >>allium family." > >G>Does Ms. MacLean cite any sources for her claim about the standard > >way of cooking greens? It is not supported by the (few) recipes > >I have seen for porray; it is also not supported by any other period > >sources of which I am aware. I would be very interested in seeing > >a primary source that supports this claim. > >Well, I've lived in England and they still cook 97% of their vegetables >into a soggy mass. Her primary source bibliography is 5 pages long with >the most likely answers to question residing in the following: Lady Dierdre, neither of these observations answers my question. That the English today cook a certain way says almost nothing about what they did in period. I, too, have lived in England; and almost nothing I ate there bore any very great resemblance to any of the staples of medieval English cuisine. This is true of "traditional" cookery in general, both in terms of ingredients and in terms of techniques, whether English, continental, or wherever-else. As to her primary bibliography: you seem to think that I was attacking the overall scholarship of the source you cited. What I was asking, was whether the author cited any specific sources for _this specific datum_. It should not be necessary to point out that a book-length work that is, overall, highly researched, may nonetheless contain a single claim that is not strongly substantiated. That is why scholarly works include not only general bibliographies, but also footnotes. If the answer is that the author did not indicate the source for this particular claim, a simple "no" will suffice. I understand that that does not mean, necessarily, that the author had no source. BTW, I find it unlikely, given my experience of sources of the kind you cited, that any of those you mentioned would contain substantiation from this particular view. Accounts of priories and abbeys, for instance, are excellent sources on what was grown, where, when, in what quantity, and of how much of what was eaten when, but generally thin to non-existent on how it was prepared. Estate books are little better, and exchequer records hopeless. Herbals don't talk about ordinary cookery, as a rule, nor do books on medicine. In general, what you have shown are good sources on gardening, but lousy sources on cookery. The claim was a claim about cookery, not gardening. Experts on medieval cookery (Hieatt, Scully, etc.) sometimes make claims about gardening. Unless they are carefully substantiated, claim-by-claim, I take them with a grain of salt: expertise in cookery does not entail expertise in gardening. I am not familiar with the experts in gardening, but I would be surprised if the converse were not also true. Cheers, -- Angharad/Terry Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 15:42:28 GMT From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann) Subject: Re: SC - period salads On the questions about salads in period I can only offer what I have on Renaissance Italian styles. I had posted a couple of months ago what Castelvetro wrote on salads, so I will not repeat that again. (If you really want that post I can e-mail it privately for those who had not seen it.) That was just slightly post period (1614) and probably quite relevant for a late 16th century salat. He does list lettuce varieties of capucina and romana (or Cos) lettuce. Purslane and endive appear to be popular lettuce-like substitutes or additions for use in salads. So, now I will pull it back to Platina (Venice, Italy, 1475).In his "On Honest Indulgence and Good Health" he covers a bit on lettuce stating that there are several varieties available and that Lacticaulis, Sessilis and Crispa are the best. (All lettuce is considered cold and damp, for those that care). He also lists goat-lettuce and Serralia lettuce. He states that lettuce can, and often is, eaten plain with a sprinkle of ground salt, a little oil and a little more vinegar. "There are those who add a little mint and parsley to this preparation, so that it does not seem too bland". I'll skip the bit about cooking lettuce. Platina then goes on to endive, which he considers a type of lettuce. It is also prepared in the same way as lettuce. He also lists a wide variety of other raw leafy vegetables and how to prepare them, but our interest is more on: "On preparing a salad of several greens. A preparation of several greens is made with lettuce, bugloss, mint, catmint, fennel, parsley, sisymbrium, origan, chervil, cicerbita which doctors call teraxicon, plantain, morella, and several other fragrant greens, well washed and pressed and put in a large dish. Sprinkle them with a good deal of salt and blend with oil, then pour vinegar over it all when it has sat a little; it should be eaten and well chewed because wild greens are tough. This sort of salad needs a little more oil than vinegar. It is more suitable in winter than in summer, because it requires much digestion and this is stronger in winter." For those of you who think you can better figure out the ingredients from the original Latin: "CONDITUM Padodopum. It item cenditu pandodopu ex lactuca: buglesso: meno: ceripholio: cicerbita: qua teraxicon: laceda: qua arnaglossam medici uocat: morella: foeniculi flore: ac plersiq; alus odoriferis herbis: bene lotis: expressisq; pa tina ampla requnut: sale perfuso ubi paululum resederit: eau? syluatica durities comedenda: ac bene dendibus coterenda sunt. Hoc coditu plusculu olei & minus aceti requirit. Hieme magis q aestate conuenit: qa plus concoctionis: quae hieme valida est requirit." My copy is tough to read and I don't know Latin, so assume any transcription errors above are mine. On a related note about the boiled onions, Platina says this about preparing onions, for those that might be interested: "The onion is also cooked under the ashes and coals until all the rawness is steamed out of it; when it has cooled it is chopped finely and put in a dish with salt and oil and defrutum, or rolled in must. There are those who also sprinkle the onion with pepper or cinnamon." Castelvetro in 1614 wrote this of onions: "Cooked onions: When there are no spring onions, we make a salad of roasted onions seasoned with crushed pepper. This is tastier and more wholesome than eating them boiled. Onions without pepper are excellent for clearing up the sort of bad cough that lingers after a cold." I hope that some of you find that useful! Honos Servio, Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra (mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX) zarlor at acm.org Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:59:45 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Sigh. (was- shish > Maybe somebody with one of those wonderful food/herbal books could just nix > the existance of modern salad lettuce (leaf and "iceburg") all together? > -brid Lettuce does end the meal that with lettuce has had its beginning, Lettuce, which too was wont to close the meals of their fathers.' [Martial ep. Xiii] Of lettuce (De lactuca): Bartholomaeus Anglicus, On the Properties of Things, Book 17, Chap. 92 XVII.xciii. (Bart.) Sorry, here are a couple of citations which make it impossible to wish lettuce away. Apparently, lettuce has been under cultivation so long, the original plant can't be determined. It does not prove the existence or non-existence of lettuce salad, although I am of opinion lettuce would be treated in the same manner as any other green, whatever that manner is for the particular society and time. Bear Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:14:36 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Sigh. (was- shish >Maybe somebody with one of those wonderful food/herbal books could just nix >the existance of modern salad lettuce (leaf and "iceburg") all together? >-brid Cress From Gerard's Herball - pages 249-251. "Nasturtium hortense.Garden Cresses. ...Galen saith that the Cresses may be eaten with bread Velutiobsonium, and so the Antient Spartanes vsually did; and the low-Countrie men many times doe, who commonly vse to feed of Cresses with bread and butter. It is eaten with other sallade hearbes, as Tarragon and Rocket..." Lettuce from Gerard - pages 306-308. "Lactuca. Lettuce. ...Lettuce maketh a pleasant sallad, being eaten raw with vineger, oyle, and a little salt: but if it be boyled it is sooner digested, and nourisheth more. It is serued in these dayes, and in these countries in the beginning of supper, and eaten first before any other meate: which also Martiall testifieth to be done in his time, maruelling why some did vse it for a seruice at the end of supper, in these verses... Tell me why Lettuce, which our Grandsires last did eate, Is now of late become, to be the first of meate? Notwithstanding it may now and then be eaten at both those times to the health of the body: for being taken before meat it doth many times stir vp appetite: and eaten after supper it keepeth away drunkennesse which commeth by the wine; and that is by reason that it stayeth the vapors from rising vp into the head." Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu renfrow at skylands.net Author & Publisher of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More, A Collection of 15th Century Recipes" and "A Sip Through Time, A Collection of Old Brewing Recipes" Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:15:54 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Soup > now, somewhere I learned that iceberg lettuce was developed in the early days > of the california mega-farm industry. It was developed to be shipped east by > train in cars kept cool with huge chunks of ice. I'm pretty sure that butter > crunch and boston lettuce are recente developments as well. What might be a > more period choice? Romaine? Endive? > > Bonne Iceberg went into commercial production in 1894, but it was grown prior to that and was known as Crisphead lettuce. According to Root, the Anglo-Saxons did not cultivate lettuce, but gathered it wild. Charlemagne directed that it be grown in his gardens and apparently it has been grown in French gardens all through period, but that during the Middle Ages, watercress was more preferred and grown commercially. In 1574, four kinds of lettuce were being cultivated in France; the small, the common, the curled, and the Roman. The Roman is Romaine. The curled is a loose head lettuce of which Butter lettuce is a variety. Common is probably leaf lettuce and, as a guess, small lettuce is a small head lettuce. I tend to use leaf or Romaine when I cook, but that's more from flavor than any sense of history. Bear Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:53:35 +0100 From: "Yeldham, Caroline S" Subject: SC - Lettuce In the Fromond list of plants (over 100 designated) for the garden (English, c 1500) lettuce is a pot-herb (ie to be cooked), not one of the salad herbs. Has anyone tried this? Personally I don't like cooked lettuce and tend to go with Markham and use it in the salad. I tend to use cos and lollo rosso types, being non-headed types of lettuce. Caroline Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 14:23:47 -0400 From: Marilyn Traber Subject: Re: Lettuce (was Re: SC - Citron and Potato) Ya know, if you were to use the wild lettuice, which ic a long tlall stalky plant, 4' tall with long skinny leaves and bitter as sin, with all the water changes would give you the thin stalks of a candy with the bitter gone and just the syrup and spices taste. anybody know when they made the change from the wild lettuice form to the sweet little things we grow now? margali and they are also a source of an opiate like latex sap, used for eye trouble and sleep disorders....candy before bed perhaps? From: "Barbara Benson" To: Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:06:49 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Lettuce (Welserin) As long as we are still fixated on lettuce here is one I have found from Sabina Welserin: 90 If you would like to make chicken on head lettuce Then take a pot and lay a handful of lettuce in it and a chicken on top, again a handful of lettuce and a chicken and so forth. Take after that good broth, which should be rich, and put a good piece of butter into it and salt it and boil it, until you think that it has cooked enough. Put a little mace into it. One must, however, use head lettuce and it should be washed clean beforehand, then it is ready. I think it is interesting that she specifies Head Lettuce and not Loose Leaf. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Serena da Riva From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Lettuce (Welserin) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:18:45 -0600 Devil's advocate time. Is the translation correct? If so, what is meant by "head lettuce?" The title line of the recipe is, "Jtem wilt=FA hener jn ain kepffleten sallat machen." "Kepffletten" is being translated as "head lettuce." "Kepff" (or "kepf" as it later appears) for "kopf." A reasonable translation if there is no other possible meaning for "kepff." So does "head lettuce" mean what we think it means? If you check Leonard Fuchs's Herbal under Latuca (the Latin and genus name for lettuce): http://www.med.yale.edu/library/historical/fuchs/170-1.gif The illustration on pg 171 is labeled Latuca capitata. And not a bowling ball shaped head of lettuce in sight (although, if you look below the branchs, there is a close cluster of leaves which probably represents a "loose" rosette). The German subtitle is "great or white lettuce." This suggests, in the absence of better information, that "kepfletten" is a lettuce with a well defined but loosely wrapped rosette, possibly similar to a modern butterhead. Bear > As long as we are still fixated on lettuce here is one I have > found from Sabina Welserin: > > 90 If you would like to make chicken on head lettuce > Then take a pot and lay a handful of lettuce in it and a > chicken on top, again a handful of lettuce and a chicken and so > forth. Take after that good broth, which should be rich, and > put a good piece of butter into it and salt it and boil it, > until you think that it has cooked enough. Put a little mace > into it. One must, however, use head lettuce and it should > be washed clean beforehand, then it is ready. > > I think it is interesting that she specifies Head Lettuce and > not Loose Leaf. Seems pretty straightforward to me. > > Serena da Riva Edited by Mark S. Harris lettuce-msg Page 11 of 11