gourds-msg - 2/22/08 gourds, pumpkins, squash. Which varieties were period. Recipes. NOTE: See also the files: root-veg-msg, peppers-msg, vegetarian-msg, turnips-msg, rec-leeks-msg, peas-msg, beans-msg, vegetables-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Uduido at aol.com Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Watermelon In a message dated 97-05-02 03:46:37 EDT, Linneah writes: <<One more thing, I keep hearing about/reading about gourds. What are they? I had been taught that the winter squash we eat are also New World.>> The Luffa gourd (sponge) is an Old World plant and is extremely edible when it is very young (less than 6 inches). I have used (and continue to use) this gourd when when gourds are called for in a period recipe. Both winter and summer squashes are New World according to all the references I have read.. Lord Ras From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: SC - Watermelon >I have been told and read that all the squash we commonly eat is New >World. I, too, would like to know what the 'guord' referred to in >various recipes is. > >Clarissa From the Miscellany: Pumpkin, Squash, Gourd It seems to be well established that at least three of the four cultivated species of Cucurbita (C. pepo, C. moschata and C. maxima) existed in the New World long before Columbus; the fourth (C. ficifolia) is "ordinarily not thought of as a cultivated plant" (Whittaker), but apparently has been cultivated in the past. Whitaker argues, on the evidence of the absence of these species in the fifteenth century European herbals and their presence in the sixteenth century ones, that they were introduced into Europe from the New World. A variety of C. pepo similar to the squash now known as "Small Sugar" is illustrated in an herbal of 1542. What appears to be a field pumpkin is illustrated in 1560, with other varieties appearing in later herbals during the century. Whitaker concludes that "none of the cultivated species of Cucurbita were known to the botanists of the Western world before 1492." If so, all varieties of pumpkins, squash, and vegetable marrows are inappropriate before 1492; some were known in the sixteenth century, but may or may not have been sufficiently common to be used in feasts. There is, however, a plant translated as "gourd" in both Italian and Islamic cookbooks before 1492. The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti, which is 14th century, shows a "Cucurbite" that looks exactly like a green butternut squash-a fact of which Whitaker seems unaware when asserting the absence of all varieties of Cucurbita from pre-sixteenth century sources. It seems likely, however, that his conclusion was correct, and that what is shown in the picture and used in the recipes is not C. pepo but Lagenaria sicereia. "The white-flowered gourd, Lagenaria sicereia," seems to "have been common to both Old and New Worlds" (Whitaker). I am told that the Italian Edible Gourd is a species of Lagenaria and available from, among others, J.L. Hudson, Seedman (P.O.Box 1058, Redwood City, CA 94064). Simoons describes a Lagenaria still used in modern Chinese cooking. We have obtained what we think is the right gourd from a Chinese grocery store and used it in period recipes with satisfactory results. The taste and texture are somewhat similar to zucchini but less bitter. The Chinese, or perhaps Vietnamese, name for one variety, which the grower assured us had white flowers, is "opo." David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ From: Lasairina at aol.com Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:43:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Watermelon > I have been told and read that all the squash we commonly eat is New > World. I, too, would like to know what the 'guord' referred to in > various recipes is. > > Clarissa I found a recipe in the book "How to Cook Forsoothly," by Mistress Katrine de Baillie du Chat called -Gourdes in Potage- which recommends either zuchinni or cucumbers as the "gourd." I have made it several times at wars with the cucumbers, and there is never any leftovers... Lassar Fhina From: Uduido at aol.com Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:38:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC - Lagenaria << the Italian Edible Gourd is a species of Lagenaria and available from, among others, J.L. Hudson, Seedman (P.O.Box 1058, Redwood City, CA 94064). >> This is the species that I referred to as the Luffa Gourd (sponge). J.L. Hudson is an excellent source for exotic seeds from all over the world! Highly recommended! Their catalog is a reference source that is invaluable to any serious horticulturist/gardener. Luffa seeds are also carried by local sores and all major seed companys including Burpee. Lord Ras From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: SC - Watermelon >I found a recipe in the book "How to Cook Forsoothly," by Mistress Katrine de >Baillie du Chat called -Gourdes in Potage- which recommends either zuchinni >or cucumbers as the "gourd." I have made it several times at wars with the >cucumbers, and there is never any leftovers... > >Lassar Fhina The Chinese gourds we found, which we think are Lagenaria sicereia (sp?), which we think is the most likely candidate for the old world gourd, taste not unlike zucchini. Zucchini, of course, is Cucurbita pepo, and New World. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:26:52 -0500 (CDT) From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt) Subject: Re: SC - Columbus menu II From what I understand from the book and from what other people have posted, the squash family... (zucchini, pumpkins, winter squash are new world. The type that is old world is the gourd family which included luffa, chinese squash (obo) and gourds. I've eaten young luffas and gourds ( before they harden). zucchini it seems (as well as some of the others) were quickly accepted once they were introduced. They are within period but are not from the Old World. It appears that the old world gourds fell into disuse (maybe they do not taste as well, who can say) I don't you would be inaccurate to substitute zucchini for any gourd in a recipe since they started doing it within period. Clare St. John Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:47:17 -0400 (EDT) From: DianaFiona at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Squash << Can anyone tell me if 1) Squash is period 2) If so any recipes for them Lord Ragnar MacHardy of Clan MacHardy >> Well, technically, no. Squash as we think of them (Zucchini and yellow squash, and winter types) are New World critters. But there are Old World gourds that were eaten in the Middle East and Mediteranean in period and zucchini makes a reasonable substitute for those. Look for recipes in Roman food, Middle Eastern cookbooks like those in Cariadoc's collection, and later period Italian recipes. The gourds have a firmer, less watery texture than zucchini, so keep that in mind and adapt any recipes as needed. I've done "gourds" at least a couple of times for feasts, but I don't think any of the recipes can be imported to e-mail easily right now or I'd send them........ Ldy Diana Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:30:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Uduido at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Squash << Can anyone tell me if 1) Squash is period 2) If so any recipes for them Lord Ragnar MacHardy of Clan MacHardy >> No squash is not European period. It is a New World introduction. "Gourds" were used in period . The most probable candidate is the Luffa gourd which is very tasty when eaten young. Another candidate might be cucumbers that have been allowed to mature. This is also very edible when cooked properly. Because of the fuzzy nature of gourd and squash references and lack of documentation some cooks do use zucchini or winter squashes in place of guourds in the period recipes that call for such ingredients. This practice is at best questionable, IMHO. Lord Ras Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:04:44 -0400 (EDT) From: DianaFiona at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Squash << Because of the fuzzy nature of gourd and squash references and lack of documentation some cooks do use zucchini or winter squashes in place of guourds in the period recipes that call for such ingredients. This practice is at best questionable, IMHO. Lord Ras >> I don't know---I've grown a variety of the edible Italian gourds and they and zucchini are pretty interchangable for cooking puposes. Yes, the texture of the gourds is firmer, and the flavor is stronger, but recipes for one seem to generally work for the other. And since you can't, to my knowledge, easily buy any of the edible gourds in sufficient quantities to serve at a large feast, I think it's a reasonable substitute. I like it better than just tossing all the recipes for gourds out the window because we can't get the real item. Rather like using modern carrots for period ones.......... Ldy Diana, who would love to be able to grow the food for her feasts, if she just had enough space! Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:05:46 -0500 (EST) From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net> To: SCA Arts list <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu> Subject: Pumpkins? Yes, I know this isn't strictly arts & sciences, but I'm _afraid_ to get on the Cooks' list-- too much traffic. In research a presentation on medieval use of herbs, I came across about four mentions of 'pompions' or 'pumpkins' supposedly in period. Rosetta Clarkson quotes 7th century monk Walafrid Strabo, on the uses of pumpkins, including being emptied, dried and used as a "bushel". Sophie Knab says they were on the menu at the wedding of Jadwiga of Poland and Jagiello of Lithuania in 1390-ish. Culpeper also mentions them. Aren't pumpkins a new world veggie? If so, what was Strabo talking about and what were Jadwiga and Jagiello eating? It would have to be a fairly LARGE gourd, to be used as a bushel basket or measure... I can't think of any that would qualify offhand. Help! This is driving me nuts! Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, aka Aunt Bunny, mka Jennifer Heise jenne at tulgey.browser.net Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:18:52 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at MATH.HARVARD.EDU> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Pumpkins? In research a presentation on medieval use of herbs, I came across about four mentions of 'pompions' or 'pumpkins' supposedly in period. Rosetta Clarkson quotes 7th century monk Walafrid Strabo, on the uses of pumpkins, including being emptied, dried and used as a "bushel". Sophie Knab says they were on the menu at the wedding of Jadwiga of Poland and Jagiello of Lithuania in 1390-ish. Culpeper also mentions them. Check out the page from Cariadoc's Miscellany: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/cooking_from_primary_sources.html Tibor Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 19:33:18 -0500 (EST) From: ALBAN at delphi.com To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Pumpkins? Jadwiga Zajaczkowa asked >>n research a presentation on medieval use of herbs, I came across about four mentions of 'pompions' or 'pumpkins' supposedly in period. Rosetta Clarkson quotes 7th century monk Walafrid Strabo, on the uses of pumpkins, including being emptied, dried and used as a "bushel". Sophie Knab says they were on the menu at the wedding of Jadwiga of Poland and Jagiello of Lithuania in 1390-ish. Culpeper also mentions them. Aren't pumpkins a new world veggie? If so, what was Strabo talking about and what were Jadwiga and Jagiello eating? It would have to be a fairly LARGE gourd, to be used as a bushel basket or measure... I can't think of any that would qualify offhand. << I just checked the Oxford English Dictionary; the earliest use of either "pumpkin" or "pompion" (both referring to the same type of plant/ squash) was in the mid 1500's. Now, whether or not they referred to a New World or an Old World plant I have no idea - but the plant is, at the very least, a period beastie. Alban From: John or Fraya Davis <gameroom at infowest.com> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Pumpkins? Pumpkins are strictly New World. The only references I've found to them are as follows from "Food" by Waverly Root: "In 1540 or thereabouts, Hernando de Alvarado, acting as a scout for Coronado's penetration of the American Southwest, reported to his chief that the territory he had explored grew melons. They could not have been melons, Old World fruits which did not exist in American until the Europeans brought them there." "In 1584 Jacques Cartier reported from the St. Lawrence region that he had found there 'gros melons', translated into English not as 'big melons' but as 'pompions', pumpkins. As early as 1586, English botanists began writing about 'melons' and 'millions' as meaning pumpkins. They had picked the word up, perhaps, from Thomas Hariot, who in the same year had reported the presence in Virginia of vegetables 'called by us pompions, melons, and gourds, because they are of the like forms of those kinds in England'. 'The Europeans who encountered squashes and pumpkins in America had to compare them to melons or some other European vegetable or fruit because they had never seen anything quite like them before and had no word for them...we may make bold to assert that squashes and pumpkins are uniquely American and were completely unknown to the Old World before the time of Columbus." "I have one translation of [Charlemagne's recipe for squash soup] in French and another in English. The French translation of the word Charlemagne used is courge, 'squash'; but the English translation is 'gourd'." "Despite their speedy entry into botanical literature in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, squashes did not reach European tables in any numbers until the nineteenth. There is one reference (in a French source) to the introduction of the vegetable marrow into Enland about 1700, but the English themselves did not seem to be aware of it." Hope that helps. This books is invaluable to me when deciding what foods were eaten in period. I never realized potatoes were not eaten in England until the 1700s. Gillian Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:20:11 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - pumpkins The word "pumpkin" predates the introduction of the New World vegetable that now goes by that name. My guess is that it referred to some other edible gourd, probably Lageneria Sicereia (sp?), the white flowered gourd, which is our (my and Betty's) best guess at what the early cookbooks mean by terms such as "gourd" and "pumpkin." David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:30:49 -0400 From: llewmike at iwaynet.net Subject: Re: SC - Pumpkins (was: Needing help with a class....) Castelvetro published his work in England in 1614 after years of research. I have read several other sources on what he meant by pumpkins and have concluded that he may have meant the "white pumpkin" of the cucurbitas family. The full title is Brieve racconto di tutte le radici, di tuttte l'herbe et di tutti i frutti, che crudi o cotti in Italia si mangiano. LLEW Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 11:28:23 -0400 From: llewmike at iwaynet.net Subject: Re: SC - Pumpkins (was: Needing help with a class....) The "white pumpkin" was a large gourd of the Lagnaria family (not cucurbitas as I previously mentioned). It is a large white gourd introduced into Europe during Roman times according to Jane Grigson. After a little more research, I have come to the conclusion that what he meant were the old world variety because he describes not only making pies out of them but also cutting them into strips for eating. LLEW Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:05:53 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - gingered butternut squash soup (Was: Italian Ren Feast) > Seannach asked... > >I just found a modern recipe for gingered butternut squash soup that has > sweet potatoes in it, and am making it tonight to test out.....is there > any way this could be period?< > > Prolly not. It has sweet potatoes in it. But then, I have gotten somewhat > confused as to the legitimacy of yellow potatoes in late period Italy. > Some of us are saying that they were there, and others are saying nay. > > Since I was the original poster for the question of butternut squash being > period (can't find it in Culpeppers or other sources) I too would be > interested in this. > > Micaylah The references I have available suggest that the sweet potato (Ipomoea batatas) entered Italy about 1528 with haricot beans as part of a presentation to Pope Clement VII from Cortez's expedition into Mexico. The butternut squash (Cucurbita moschata) is much more of a problem. Cucurbita moschata is found in Africa, Asia, and both Americas. The genus contains winter squash, some pumpkins, and some gourds. Of particular interest are bottle gourds, which have been found in Egyptian and Mesoamerican tombs. While I have not been able to confirm it, I suspect butternuts are modern variants and bottle gourds or Japanese pumpkin would have been more likely to be used in period. Bear Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:31:26 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - gingered butternut squash soup (Was: Italian Ren Feast) > 1. I'm pretty sure C. Moschata is New World. > > 2. Isn't bottle gourd Lageneria sicereia (sp?). > > David/Cariadoc > http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ The Langenaria used to be the Old World gourds and the Cucurbita were primarily New World squashes, so you are probably correct. There have been some changes in taxonomy, but I haven't been able to tell if they are commonly accepted or under debate. Several sources commented on differences in taxonomy, but provided little specific information. The source I was quoting places C. moschata in Africa, Asia, and both North and South America and places the bottle gourd in C. moschata. It appears to be thorough, authoritative and accurate, however it may represent a particular academic heresy or I may have misread the information. I'm interested in determining a chronology for the variants of the species of Cucurbita, so I will be looking at this further. Bear Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:38:28 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - gingered butternut squash soup (Was: Italian Ren Feast) ddfr at best.com writes: << 2. Isn't bottle gourd Lageneria sicereia (sp?). David/Cariadoc >> Bottle gourds, bird's nest gourds, snake gourds and luffa gourds are all legenaria, SFAIK. They are all also very edible when picked young. In fact, I passed out several snake gourds at Pennsic to interested parties but have recieved no input about their experiments so far. My own experiments from those grown in my garden show luffa, bottle and snake gourds to be very tasty and they produced good results when used in all the period gourd/squash/pumpkin (e.g. pompion) recipes that I tried. Ras Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:41:35 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: SC - Pumpkins/gourds (Was: gingered butternut squash soup) Cariadoc said: >> 1. I'm pretty sure C. Moschata is New World. >> >> 2. Isn't bottle gourd Lageneria sicereia (sp?). >> and Bear replied: >The Langenaria used to be the Old World gourds and the Cucurbita were >primarily New World squashes, so you are probably correct. There have been >some changes in taxonomy, but I haven't been able to tell if they are >commonly accepted or under debate. Several sources commented on differences >in taxonomy, but provided little specific information. The source I was >quoting places C. moschata in Africa, Asia, and both North and South America >and places the bottle gourd in C. moschata. It appears to be thorough, >authoritative and accurate, however it may represent a particular academic >heresy or I may have misread the information. > >I'm interested in determining a chronology for the variants of the species >of Cucurbita, so I will be looking at this further. > >Bear About ten years ago I dug into the botanical literature looking for what gourds, squash, pumpkin, etc would have been used in period. I had a picture from a pre-Columbus _Taciunum Sanitatas_ of some that are green-skinned and shaped somewhere between butternut and zucchini (i.e. long with some swelling toward the bottom end), and the plants have white flowers. I found, among others, the following article: Whitaker, Thomas W., "American Origin of the Cultivated Cucurbits," Annals of the Missouri Botanical Garden, 1947. His conclusion, on a variety of evidence ranging from what seeds and rinds have been found in what ancient garbage dumps to what the 15th and 16th century herbals show, is that all or almost all squash you find in the grocery belong to one of three New World species of the genus Cucurbita (there is one Old World species of that genus, but it isn't cultivated). Cucurbita pepo includes zucchini, the standard orange pumpkin, yellow summer squash, (I think) acorn squash, and various others. Cucurbita moschata includes butternut and some others I don't remember. Cucurbita maxima includes Hubbard squash and some others that get really big. He didn't really go into the question of what Europeans ate before the New World squashes come in, but he did mention the White-Flowered Gourd, Lagenaria sicereia, as something that people have eaten. (At least some, and maybe all, of the New World species have yellow flowers.) A few years later we came across the book _Food in China_ by Frederick J. Simoons, CRC Press, Boca Raton 1991. He listed Lagenaria sicereia (calling it the bottle gourd) as still eaten in China, and had a line drawing consistant with the _Taciunum Sanitatas_ picture mentioned above. So armed with his book, we visited Chinatown. We had a Latin name and an English name and a picture and the people in the store had a Chinese name and a Vietnamese name, so I won't swear we got the right thing, but we took it home and tried it in some of Platina's recipes. The taste was probably closer to zucchini than any other common squash I know, but not as bitter. We have found the same thing since sold by Chinese or Vietnamese merchants; the name at least one of them gave it is "opo" and he told us it had white flowers. I have also seen white-flowered gourd grown in a Farm Park near Cleveland, though I didn't get to taste those. One of the neat things about the SCA is the chance to do research on thoroughly off-the-wall topics. Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:50:57 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - Period squashes SMaynard at qtrndss1.telstra.com.au writes: << Is there a period alternative? Willianm=-) >> Well, that's a tough question. Elizabeth has just about covered it in a previous post. There is also the small matter of whether the 'pompion' recipes from period are referring to a squash that resembles our winter squashes. Most people erroneously assume that this is the case because of circumstantial evidence or modern observations. I tend to think that the white flowered edible gourds are the squash/pumpkins being referred to. I also feel that the name for our pumpkins was not applied because the fruits resembled those grown in Europe but rather because the plant resembled that which was grown in Europe. Edible gourds can be used in all the period recipes calling for 'pumpkins' or gourds. Most call for the vegetable to be 'sliced' or 'chopped' unlike modern pumpkin recipes which call for mashing. When the bird's nest, bottle, snake or loofa gourds are used in period recipes, the end result is very good. The fact that most modern recipes use winter squash is irrelevant because there are modern recipes that use zucchini and patty pans, which are summer squashes that have a flavor very similar to the edible gourds. Ras Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:54:00 EST From: Seton1355 at aol.com Subject: SC - my medieval dinner party - long Last night I had some mundane friends over and served them a medieval feast. They really enjoyed it and were interested in the background of the recipes. The evening went off well so I thought I'd post the recipes I used. Phillipa ***Winter Squash or Pumpkin Soup*** The Medieval Kitchen Redon, Sabban, Serventi University of Chicago Press 1998 SQUASH. For squash, Peel them and cut them into slices. Remove the seeds if there are any and cook them in water in a pan. Then drain them and rinse them in cold water. Squeeze them and chop them finely. Mix with some beef and other meat broth and add cow's milk and mix half a dozen egg yolks. Put through a seive into the broth and milk. On fast days use the cooking water from dried peas or almond milk and butter. 5 1/2 lbs winter squash or pumpkin 4 C almond milk - made with a little more than 4 cups of water and 2/3 C almonds 4 Tbsp butter salt to taste Peel the squash and remove the seeds. Cut into 1" chunks and cook on boiling salted water for 10 minutes. The squash must remain firm and must not fall apart. Drain and press gently through a seive to remove excess water. Chop to a coarse puree with a knife or food processor. Place the puree in a sauce pan, add the almond milk and butter and bring to a boil. Check for salt before serving This was the Lenten recipe. It was OK, but it didn't "send" me. My guests, however, had 2 helpings! The texture of the finished product was like eating pumpkin straight out of the can. I just found another pumpkin soup recipe in this book that I like better. I'll try that next time. <snip of ***Chicken Ambrogino With Dried Fruit*** recipe> <snip of ***Green Poree for Days of Abstainence*** recipe> <snip of ***Mashed turnips and parsnips*** recipe> <snip of ***Gingerbread*** recipe> Anyway, this was my menu...oh yes, I also made fried potatoes, no recipe. Everyone liked everything, includeing my picky son! Phillipa Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 17:21:03 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - where do you get these gourds , Please? Seton1355 at aol.com wrote: > I did not know, until after I made the meal, My Lord, and all I had was canned > pumpkin anyway...BUT.....I wanted to try the soup again using a different > squash so thank you for pointing me in the right direction! But where do you > get these gourds? I've never heard of them. Do they go by another name? > Thank you, > Phillipa I believe they're known as long squashes, and I _think_ they're the same as what the Chinese call the fuzzy or hairy melon; while they're shiny on the surface, they do have a faint layer of peach fuzz. You can often find them at Asian markets. Adamantius Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:35:33 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - where do you get these gourds , Please? Seton1355 at aol.com writes: << But where do you get these gourds? I've never heard of them. Do they go by another name? Phillipa >> You can get these gourds from my garden in season or you can go to Agway or any other garden center and buy the seeds of 'Italian Edible Gourds' or the seeds of 'Luffa sponge' gourds. As you know from personal experience, our local makets are not noted for supplying anything that smacks of food that the majority of the world's population eats except on rare occasions so the closest thing you will probably find at our local markets is zucchini (also new world) which has a texture and taste similar to white flowered gourds. This year I plan on putting some of these up in the freezer so Guild members will have them to 'play' with in the off season. Ras Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:09:44 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - where do you get these gourds , Please? At 3:03 PM -0500 3/14/99, Seton1355 at aol.com wrote: >I did not know, until after I made the meal, My Lord, and all I had was canned >pumpkin anyway...BUT.....I wanted to try the soup again using a different >squash so thank you for pointing me in the right direction! But where do you >get these gourds? I've never heard of them. Do they go by another name? >Thank you, The old world gourds are still used in Chinese cooking, and we have gotten what we think are Lagenaria from chinese grocery stores. I say "think" because we had a book on the history of Chinese cooking with an English name and a latin name and a picture, and the people in the grocery store had gourds and a Vietnamese name (and maybe a Chinese name--it was a while ago), so we aren't sure we got the right thing. One possibility, if you can talk to someone familiar with growing the gourds, is to ask what color the flowers are. I think the "Italian edible gourds" that one sometimes sees in seed catalogs are lagenereia too. What you are looking for are edible gourds with white flours and scientific name Lagenaria sicereia. We have been told that one source for the seeds is J.L. Hudson, Seedman (P.O.Box 1058, Redwood City, CA 94064). The ones we found tasted more like zucchini than any of the other squashes, so that might be a good substitution. On the other hand, most of the familiar pumpkin/squash things are one species (Cucurbita pepo), which demonstrates how wide a variation you can get with a single species; for all I know there are Lagenaria equivalents of pumpkins etc. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:43:29 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - Gourds troy at asan.com writes: << Most obvious thing that comes to mind is the hairy/fuzzy melon, a.k.a. white-flowered gourd, a.k.a. long squash, which is apparently the medieval European cucurbit gourd. Adamantius >> In this we must disagree. Medieval illuminations which show pictures of 'guords' most often illustrate them as long and skinny or bottle shaped or cucumber shaped. The Italian ediblre gourd, the luffa gourd and the bottle (or bird's house) gourd are all edible when young . These are the most likely candidates. On what evidence do your base your belief that fuzzy gourds from the Orient would have been used? Cariadoc also mentions fuzzy. I suspect that the relative ease of finding that type in US markets is the major criteria for your suggestion. Please correct me if I am wrong and provide greater details supporting your position. Ras Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 11:39:35 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Gourds LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > << hairy/fuzzy melon, a.k.a. > white-flowered gourd, a.k.a. long squash, which is apparently the > medieval European cucurbit gourd. > > Adamantius >> > > In this we must disagree. Medieval illuminations which show pictures of > 'guords' most often illustrate them as long and skinny or bottle shaped or > cucumber shaped. The Italian ediblre gourd, the luffa gourd and the bottle > (or bird's house) gourd are all edible when young . These are the most likely > candidates. > > On what evidence do your base your belief that fuzzy gourds from the Orient > would have been used? Same evidence as you, probably. Do you mean Orient, by any chance? White-flowered gourds, fuzzy or hairy melons, are more or less indigenous to the Eurasian landmass, and appear, and did appear, in the cuisines of the Far East, India, Persia, etc. The illustrations (we're probably talking about the same ones) show pale green oblong fruits, somewhat fatter at the flower end than at the stem, sometimes slightly curved. Also small white blossoms. Up close, the melons have a slight down on them, more akin to the fuzzy stuff you can rub off the skin of a quince than to peachfuzz, hence the appellation, fuzzy. > Cariadoc also mentions fuzzy. I suspect that the > relative ease of finding that type in US markets is the major criteria for > your suggestion. Please correct me if I am wrong and provide greater details > supporting your position. Consider yourself offically corrected: if that were the case, I would suggest the period European gourd was in fact frozen peas ; ) My position is based on the fact that the melon/gourd could easily, from a scientific standpoint, have been grown in period Europe, and looks quite a lot like the illustrations in several different versions of Tacuinum Sanitatis. While this doesn't prove that they _were_ the period European gourd, it allows for a possibility equally viable to that of the various Italian gourds, which are possibly of the same species anyway. I should point out, though, that bottleneck gourds (which a man down the street from me grows) really don't look too much like the period illustrations I've seen. There may have been a bit of intervarietal hybridization to enhance that bottle shape in the intervening years. Some confusion may be caused by the fact that Tacuinum Sanitatis occasionally depicts items with which the illustrator was not personally familiar, so we can't always rely 100% on the illustrations (the bananas are cute, though). The similarities between the gourds as illustrated and fuzzy melons are pretty uncanny, however. But yes, it's true that fuzzy melons may be more available in the commercial ethnic markets than Italian gourds, which is probably why I often see people looking as if they might be Italian buying fuzzy melons in the Indian and Chinese markets near me. Of course they could be sauteeing them with beef in oyster sauce... ; ) . One never knows, do one? Adamantius Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:01:12 -0400 From: Angie Malone <alm4 at cornell.edu> Subject: Re: SC - cordials + Borage If you have a local farm and garden store try there. In NY we have places called Agway, where they have borage seeds. I ordered mine from Shumway seed company a few years ago, but haven't planted more since. I also like Pinetree Seeds. http://www.superseeds.com You can order smaller seed packets from them to try different things and the seed packets are about half the price of the larger ones. They also have some interesting possibly period seeds. They have the edible gourd seeds. They are in the italian vegetable seed section and here's the blurb: IT66. CUCUZZI (55 days) Italian edible gourd. You can tell that these are truly gourds from the leaf shape and the white flowers, but when harvested young, the uses are identical to zucchini. The flavor is stronger, however--difficult to describe. Vines are long and spreading. As with the zucchetta tromboncino, if you don't harvest them young, these will grow to a remarkable length, close to 4 feet. 20 seeds .55 Angeline Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:34:29 +1000 From: "HICKS, MELISSA" <HICKS_M at casa.gov.au> Subject: SC - Gourds: Live and growing Greetings all, This is from Rowan who is unfortunately unsubscribed at the moment. She is growing langanaria sicaria (sic). Mel. > Adamantius wrote: > >> << Most obvious thing that comes to mind is the hairy/fuzzy melon, a.k.a. > >> white-flowered gourd, a.k.a. long squash, which is apparently the > >> medieval European cucurbit gourd. > > Ras said: > >> In this we must disagree. Medieval illuminations which show pictures of > >> 'guords' most often illustrate them as long and skinny or bottle shaped or > >> cucumber shaped. The Italian ediblre gourd, the luffa gourd and the bottle > ... > > Well, I've just grown one from seed (thanks Drake) and you are both right! > The vine had white flowers, about half the size of zucchhini flowers, but > otherwise grew rather like a pumpkin - it was a climber. The resulting gourd > is long and skinny, rather like a lebanese cucumber. I picked the sole > result when it was 18" long. It has a bright mid green shiny skin, covered > in little hairs - it is definitely fuzzy, but in a delicate way. It's > sitting on my bench at home right now, waiting for me to decide how I'll > cook it... > > I will try to take a photo and post it, if it works out... > > Rowan Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:06:07 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Gourds troy at asan.com writes: <<....<snip>......The illustrations (we're probably talking about the same ones)>> I don't think so. The illustration in the herbal clearly shows a bottle shape that is globular at the stem end thinning in the middle and widening to a fatter globe on the flower end. In the background are long skinny objects which could be interpreted as very long cucumbers or Italian edible gourds. Interspersed throughout are rather samller objects that could be cucumbers but the pointing ends suggest luffas to me rather than the former. Both Italian edible gourds and bottle gourds have a dense fuzz covering them when they are young. I haven't grown luffas in a while so I can't say if they have fuzz when young or not. One other point that might be taken into consideration is that although the growing season for all 3 types of gourds mentioned above is rather long, the fuzzy melon takes a considerably longer season to mature. Apparantly this is an area that needs more study. :-) Ras Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 22:48:01 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Gourds: Live and growing "HICKS, MELISSA" wrote: > This is from Rowan who is unfortunately unsubscribed at the moment. She is > growing langanaria sicaria (sic). Mel. > > > > Well, I've just grown one from seed (thanks Drake) and you are both right! > > The vine had white flowers, about half the size of zucchhini flowers, but > > otherwise grew rather like a pumpkin - it was a climber. The resulting > > gourd > > is long and skinny, rather like a lebanese cucumber. I picked the sole > > result when it was 18" long. It has a bright mid green shiny skin, covered > > in little hairs - it is definitely fuzzy, but in a delicate way. It's > > sitting on my bench at home right now, waiting for me to decide how I'll > > cook it... > > > > I will try to take a photo and post it, if it works out... And in the mean time, check this out: http://www.nre.vic.gov.au/trade/asiaveg/thes-34.htm for a photo of fuzzy melons. One possible source of confusion might be that simply knowing the supposed botanical/taxonomical name of something living doesn't necessary enable you to distinguish it from something else, since frequently a species will have more than one genus name on record, and sometimes even more than one entire species designation. So, for example, knowing that the fuzzy melon is benincasa hispada isn't especially helpful when others know it as cucurbita hispada, and other sources refer to the winter melon (an entirely different squash and looking nothing at all like the fuzzy melon, being more or less spherical) as both the fuzzy or hairy melon _and_ as cucurbita hispada. Seems as if even some of the botanists are somewhat confused on this point, but the lagenaria and benincasa genera seem to have nearly identical specimens of cucurbit gourds. As Ras says, more research is indicated, but at the end of the research trail one may find that it makes little difference in the end, and there may actually be no "one, true Gourd", provided that one understands the basic concept that neither zucchini nor bumpy New World ornamental pumpin-type gourds are what the medieval European recipes are talking about. Adamantius Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:33:41 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - New World Foods-list > I have a question regarding Pumpkin. In Apicius, there are many recipes that > specify pumpkin. (Book III) The latin word they use is cucurbitas. Granted, > whatever "pumpkin" they are referring to in those recipes is not what we > have today. There are references to green string beans, and "marrow" as > zucchini squash. This may be where the problem lies in determining what is > and is not "period". How do we tell the difference between what the original > recipe said, and the language the translaters use? > > Aldyth > Aldyth at aol.com The curcubitas referred to in Apicius are almost certainly members of the genus Lagenaria, which contains calabashes, dipper and bottle gourds. The Lagenaria are believed to be of African origin and spread to Asia and Europe in prehistoric times. They are found in New World archeological sites beginning around 7000 BC. The dispersion to the New World is believed to have been by current drift from Africa or Asia, although the Diffusionist claim it as evidence of commerce between the New and Old Worlds in prehistoric times. The Lagenaria and the genus Cucurbita are both members of the family Cucurbitaceae. The Cucurbita are the squashes and pumpkins from the New World. While there is a botanical theory that some of the Cucurbita have an Asian origin, none are found in Europe and there is no evidence that any reached Europe prior to Columbus. I tend to believe they were transported as seed from the New World and quickly adopted to replace the Old World gourds in cooking. Vincenzo Campi's The Fruit Seller (circa 1580) shows a green pumpkin-shaped squash (which was identified as a "marrow" in accompanying text) and what is probably a pumpkin (stem hidden, making actual identification impossible. While the marrow squash is a large, watery version of the zucchini, the identification on the above squash as a marrow makes me think the Brits may use the term very loosely. BTW, your string bean is probably a yard long bean, which is of Old World origin. Bear Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 10:52:01 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Period Pumpkin Recipes? lilinah at earthlink.net writes: << Are there any authentic (obviously late) "period"recipes for pumpkin? >> This depends on what you mean by 'pumpkin.' The word was used for old world varieties of several gourd species some of which looked little liked the New World food which also received the old world name of 'pumpkin.' Many period recipes exist for squash or pumpkin. If you have Scully's The Medieval Kitchen, there is a nice one for a broth-squash based pottage that you might find useful for your purposes. I have tried it using several species of old world 'pumpkin' including immature bushel basket, birdhouse, Italian Edible and loofa gourds with excellent results. The translated and original recipes from Libro de arte coquinaria by Maestro Martinoas as they appear in Scully follows: Mondale como vogliono essene, et poi cocile con brodo di carne, overo con acqua et mettevi un pocha de cipolla secundo la quantita che tu vorrai fare. Et quando pareca cotta cacciala fore, et passa ogni cosa per la cocchiara straforata, overo pistale molto bene, et metteli accocere in una pignatta con brodo grasso, et con un pocho d'gresto. Et siano un pocho gialle di zafrano; et quando sono cotte toglile dal focho et lasciale un pocho refredare. Dapoi togli di rossi d'ova secundo la quantita et sbattili con un pocho di caso vecchio et gitaggli in le ditte zucche menando continuamente col cocchiaro accio che non si prendano: et fa le menestre et mectevi sopra spetie dolci. To cook squashes, peel them as they should be, and then cook them with meat broth or water; add a little onion according to the quantity you want to make. And when they seem cooked, take them out and put them through a strainer or pound them very well; and cook them in a pot with rich broth and a little verjuice. And they should be slightly yellow with saffron, and when they are cooked, remove them from the fire and leave them a while to cool. Then take egg yolks according to the quantity and beat them with a little aged cheese, and add them to the squash, stirring constantly with the spoon so that they do not stick; dress your bowls, and top with sweet spices. Ras Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:11:51 -0600 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - Period Pumpkin Recipes? Someone wrote (I'm picking this one up second hand) > >Even if it isn't New World pumpkin, are there any European cookbooks > >that actually refer to pumpkin or pompon or pompion? The OED entry under pompion quotes Tusser, 1570 or so, as saying (I think) that it is boiled or cooked in butter in May. But that doesn't sound like pumpkin, given the date, and the West Kingdom contest is fall, not spring. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:04:50 -0600 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - Period pumpkin recipes At 10:34 AM -0500 3/1/00, Robin Carroll-Mann wrote: >I've been checking through the Spanish sources, since they seem likely >to contain late-period pumpkin recipes. the trouble is that the Spanish >word for pumpkin "calabaza" also refers to various gourds and >squashes. I did find one recipe that looks promising. It's various ways >of stuffing calabazas. The first variation calls for scooping out the >insides of the calabaza, and filling it with a mixture that includes ground >veal or pork, bacon, cheese, eggs, raisins, spices, small chickens, and >stuffed pigeons. Is there anything in the cucurbita family that's large >enough to accomodate this assortment, other than a pumpkin? Why are you limiting yourself to the cucurbita family--all of whose members are, I think, New World. _The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti_, which predates the discovery of the New World, shows large edible gourds, presumably Lageneria Sicereia (sp?). Given how wide the range of size is in C. Pepo, I wouldn't be surprised if there were lageneria big enough for what you describe, but I don't know. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 01:46:03 +0100 From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE> Subject: SC - Period Pumpkin Recipes? << but so far nothing with a name even vaguely like pumpkin. ... are there any European cookbooks that actually refer to pumpkin or pompon or pompion? >> The OED (1933 vol. X 117a) quotation s.v. "sugared" might lead to a recipe: 1600 Surflet Countrie Farme 252 To make cucumbers or pompions sugred, you must steepe the seed in water that is well sweetned with sugar or honie, .. and so sowe them. The quotations s.v. "pumpkin" are beginning only 1647. The entry "pompion" has quotations from 1545 onwards, e.g. 1587 Harrison ... An acre of ground .. whereon to set cabbages .. pompons, or such like stuffe. 1573 Tusser ... Herbes and rootes to boile or to butter. .. Pompions in May. (OED1 Vol. VII 1104b). Alas, there are not recipes, but the latter quotation at least seems to mention a kind of preparation (depends on what was left out in the quotation). The German "Rheinfr 0nkisches Kochbuch" (c. 1445) has a recipe for "K?rbes musz", and there are several recipes for "zuche" in the 15th (or 14th?) century Anonimo Veneziano published by Faccioli and Frati... But I assume these are not the species you are looking for. The variety of species and names in this family is really impressing. Is there an inventory of the different species and of the European expressions for these species somewhere? Best, Thomas Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:29:48 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: SC - period pumpkin recipes? In response to Thomas Gloning, i'm forwarding a message that Christine A Seelye-King was kind enough to send me. It has been slightly edited for layout, but i have not changed the content. >--------- Forwarded message ---------- >From: khkeeler <kkeeler at unlinfo.unl.edu> >To: herbalist at Ansteorra.ORG >Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:09:30 -0500 >Subject: Re: HERB - the period pumpkin > >RAISYA wrote: >> I've been working on figuring out what the period pumpkin is, and I'd like >> to hear from other people. >> There's an illumination of the period pumpkin in the 14th century TACUINUM >> SANITATIS. Both the leaves and fruit of the plant look like a butternut >> squash. The modern pumpkin and most squash belong to Cucurbita pepo and >> Cucurbita maxima which originated in N. and S. America, while the butternut > > squash belongs to Cucurbita moschata. ><snip> > > I think the butternut squash makes the most sense, but maybe there's something >> I haven't come across. Has anyone else looked into this? >> Raisya Khorivovna > >My sources are >NW Simmonds, Evolution of crop plants (Longman 1976) >JF Hancock, Plant evolution and the origin of crop species (Prentice Hall 1992) >BB Simpson and MC Ogorzaly Economic botany: plants in our world >(McGraw-Hill, 2nd ed. 1995). > >As you say, New World plants are >Cucurbita pepo (summer squash, marrow, pumpkin, zuccini, acorn squash, >crookneck, spaghetti, ornamental squashes) >but also >C. moschata (winter squash, butternut squash, pumpkin) >C. maxima (winter squash, pumpkin, winter marrow) >C. mixta (winter squash, hubbard squash, turban squash, pumpkin) >C. ficifolia (fig-leaf gourd). >Simpson and Ogorzaly suggest ways to distinguish the above (p. 126). > >Totally separate and much more complicated are Old World members of this >family (Cucurbitaceae). >Cucumis sativus (cucumber) originally from India, >Cucumis melo (muskmelon, cantalope) Africa, India, >Citrullus lanatus (watermelon) South Africa , >Languinaria siceraria (white-flowered gourd) Africa, the Americas >Luffa acutangula, L. cylindrica (luffa) Asia. >Watermelons are very old: appear in Dioscorides, were being grown in >China by 1200 AD >Cucumis melo doesn't occur in Egyptian or Greek writing, does in texts >from the end of the Roman empire--current varieties include cantaloupe, >Perisan, musk, Cranshaw and honeydew melons >Cucumbers are known from ancient Egypt, were widely dispersed across the OW >white-flowered gourd - known from Ecuador and Peru 7,000 yrs ago, Egypt >3,000 yrs ago- currently thought to be a natural disjunction with the >plant naturally occurring both places. >Simpson and Ogorzaly call the Old World cucurbits "dessert foods", the >New World "staple foods" which fits the distribution given above. But >is a problem for interpretting Period pumpkins. >On the other hand, the Simmonds book makes a casual reference to a firm, >hard greenish watermelon called citron, used for feeding livestock (but, >likely in S. Africa)- so there may be more varieties of these fruits >than my sources deal with. > Good question, I'll see what less direct references suggest. >Agnes deLanvallei, Mag Mor, Calontir >-- >mka Kathy Keeler >kkeeler1 at unl.edu Some other messages in the thread indicate that "family" is used where "genus" should have been used. Also as there has been some botanical reorganization, some plants appear in more than one species, because they were so listed in different books. If i am understanding correctly, the long, pale green Italian gourd is a Languinaria. Please, anyone, correct me if i have confused things. The plant that Pinetree Seeds is selling under Italian Vegetables - Gourds-Edible - --- from on-line catalog --- IT66. CUCUZZI (55 days) Italian edible gourd. You can tell that these are truly gourds from the leaf shape and the white flowers, but when harvested young, the uses are identical to zucchini. The flavor is stronger, however--difficult to describe. Vines are long and spreading. As with the zucchetta tromboncino, if you don't harvest them young, these will grow to a remarkable length, close to 4 feet. 20 seeds .55 - --- end quote from catalog --- I could find no gourds on-line at Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds. Anahita al-shazhiyya Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:52:35 -0500 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: Re: SC - Period pumpkin recipes And it came to pass on 1 Mar 00,, that david friedman wrote: > At 10:34 AM -0500 3/1/00, Robin Carroll-Mann wrote: > >I've been checking through the Spanish sources, since they seem likely to > >contain late-period pumpkin recipes. the trouble is that the Spanish > >word for pumpkin "calabaza" also refers to various gourds and squashes. [snip] > >Is there anything in the cucurbita family > >that's large enough to accomodate this assortment, other than a pumpkin? > > Why are you limiting yourself to the cucurbita family--all of whose > members are, I think, New World. ::sigh:: That's what comes of relying on my memory, especially when I'm feeling fuzzy-headed. I was mistakenly thinking that all the Old World and New World gourds/squashes were different varieties of cucurbita. Thank you for the correction. > _The Four Seasons of the House of > Cerruti_, which predates the discovery of the New World, shows large > edible gourds, presumably Lageneria Sicereia (sp?). Given how wide the > range of size is in C. Pepo, I wouldn't be surprised if there were > lageneria big enough for what you describe, but I don't know. In looking at the other recipes that I have access to, it's become even clearer that the term calabaza is used generically to refer to that category of vegetable. Some of the recipes do specify that the calabaza should be large or small or tender, according to the requirements of that particular dish. The recipe for Torta de Calabazas says that one can cook all varieties of calabaza in this manner. So I reluctantly conclude that there is no way for me to know which (if any) of the calabaza recipes refer to pumpkin, or a pumpkin-like gourd. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 21:12:35 ESTFrom: LrdRas at aol.comSubject: Re: SC - Re: period pumpkin seed sourcesalm4 at cornell.edu writes:<< I'll let people know because I plan on ordering the seeds from Baker's and trying to grow them. >>Great. We can compare notes. :-) Regarding the time from seed to harvest. This time is until the first gourds bearing 'hard' shells are ready. The time until harvest would be considerably shorter for use as food. All gourds should be used when young as they are inedible when they reach a mature hard shelled size. Also the skins are tender and thin until they start to mature. Basically, if you cannot puncture the skin easily with a fingernail the gourd is too large to use for food purposes.Ras Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 22:45:29 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - period pumpkin recipes? TerryD at Health.State.OK.US writes: << Pardon Ras, but you have a terminology error. Gourds are members of the family Cucurbitaceae. They are not part of the genus Cucurbita. >> Yes, that is what I meant. Also, loofas are very edible when young. Very good in fact. Ras Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 22:00:12 -0500 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: SC - Stuffed gourds Here's the maybe-pumpkin recipe from Granado. Source: Diego Granado, _Libro del Arte de Cozina_ (Spanish, 1599) Translation: Lady Brighid ni Chiarain (Robin Carroll-Mann) PARA RELLENAR DE DIVERSAS MANERAS LAS CALABAZAS -- To stuff gourds in various ways If you wish to cook the gourds, diligently clean them of their rinds, taking care not to break them. Make a round opening at the part where the flower is, and the stem, and with a knife remove all that is inside. And stuff it with a mixture made from lean meat of veal, or of pork chopped with an equal amount of lean and fatty bacon, and adding cheese, eggs, raisins, common spices, and saffron. And have small chickens and pigeons, stuffed, and put them in the gourd with the said mixture, and when it is full cover it with some round slices of the same gourd. And put it in a proportionate vessel, in such a way that it cannot move, with enough broth to come up to more than halfway, covered with streaky bacon cut into slices, or with salted pig's belly. This is done so that the gourd should take on flavor and should not be insipid. And in the broth put pepper, cinnamon, and saffron. And cause it to cook over the coals, keeping the vessel covered so that it cannot breathe, and when it has boiled a little while, just until the mixture has compressed, add more broth and let it finish cooking. And when it is cooked, strain the broth from the same vessel, and put the gourd on a plate and serve it hot with the bacon all around. You can also fill the gourd with milk, beaten eggs, sugar, and streaky bacon cut into bits. You can also make it in another manner. And that will be, having made an opening without taking off the rind, remove the interior and with dexterity arrange slices of lean bacon inside, on the bottom as well as on the sides, and have ready uncooked yellow stuffings cut up, or truly just the mixture, and make a layer of it on the bottom. And take pigeons, chickens, and quail, and other small birds cut up, the entrails and the bones removed, and sprinkled with pepper, cinnamon and cloves and nutmeg. And put them one by one in the gourd, fitting them with the same mixture of stuffing for intestines. And at the end, upon these birds put a slice of veal sprinkled with the said spices, which should cover all the mixture. Then cover the opening with the same part of the gourd that you took out, and wrap the gourd in a fold of paper and tie it with a thread, and put it in the oven which is somewhat less hot than if you were going to cook bread in it. After two hours take it out and untie the paper and serve it hot. Note: stuffings (rellenos) are mentioned in many other recipes. They seem to be a mixture of chopped meats and seasonings, sometimes formed into various shapes and sizes, sometimes used to fill intestines in the manner of a sausage. Fennel is a seasoning in many of these stuffing recipes, so Italian sausage mixture might work for redacting this recipe. I believe that a yellow stuffing would have saffron in it, but that's only a guess on my part. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 15:47:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net> Subject: SC - gourds and pompions Oh HELP! I've been trailing this question for years, and I'm still no closer to a coherent explanation. What _is_ the period European 'pompion', aka 'pumpkin'? It appears before Columbus, and Walafrid of Strabo (10th century) notes that the big ones are suitable for making 'bushels' -- bushel baskets-- out of. Which means that they were somewhat globular and also big enough to carry stuff in when hollowed out. They were also eaten; they appear on the account books for the reign of Jadwiga and Jagiello in Poland (1386-1399). Does anyone have any kind of lead on this? Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne at tulgey.browser.net Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 15:25:51 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - gourds and pompions Prior to Columbus, the gourds and pompions are probably members of the genus Lagenaria (including calabashes, dippers, and bottle gourds). The Lagenaria are believed to originate in Africa and are found in both the New and Old Worlds. The New World Lagenaria are believed to have been brought to the Americas from Africa by accidental dispersion via ocean currents. In general, gourds are members of the family Cucurbitaceae having hard, durable shells. The squashes and pumpkins of the New World are members of the genus Cucurbita. The common names of similar members of the Lagenaria were applied to them when the Europeans found them. The similarity probably led to the rapid adaption of the Cucurbita in Europe, as evidenced in a number of 16th Century paintings dealing with food stuffs. There is a scientific debate as to the possible Asian origin of some members of the Cucurbita, but it is a fairly safe bet that the ones in Europe arrived from the New World after 1492. Other genera of the Cucurbitaceae are Cucumis, containing the cucumbers and the melons (except the watermelon), Citrullis, the watermelons, and Luffa, loofahs. All of these are of Old World origin. Bear Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 00:54:14 +0200 From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE> Subject: Re: SC - gourds and pompions << What _is_ the period European 'pompion', aka 'pumpkin'? It appears before Columbus, and Walafrid of Strabo (10th century) notes that the big ones are suitable for making 'bushels' -- bushel baskets-- out of. Which means that they were somewhat globular and also big enough to carry stuff in when hollowed out. They were also eaten; they appear on the account books for the reign of Jadwiga and Jagiello in Poland (1386-1399). >> AHH! Walahfrid Strabo! I was rowing around his island, the Reichenau in the Bodensee, in 1989, thinking: "Here is where Walahfrid lived more than 1100 years ago". A fine author. He died in 849; he once was abbot at the Reichenau. _Strabo_ means 'the cross-eyed, the squinting'. The "cucurbita" described in his 'Hortulus' is a bottle-gourd, according to Stoffler, the editor of the Hortulus, and according to Marzell, who compiled a multi-volume dictionary on German plant names and who wrote a short article about "Die Pflanzen des 'Hortulus'" (The plants of the 'Hortulus'). Only in case both of us talk about the cucurbita-chapter, I wonder if the _vasum_ in the passage "... in assiduos formarier usus // Vasorum poterit ..." could be rendered as "'bushels' -- bushel baskets"; the rest of the passage speaks about how to make a vessel/ bottle from the gourds, to preserve wine for some time. Cucurbita is also mentioned in the plant list of the 9th century Capitulare de Villis; Gnther Franz translates "Flaschenkrbis" (bottle gourd), thereby relying on older authors on the question, too. In addition, at the beginning of the capitulare there is sort of an anti-corruption passage, and in this passage "buticulas" are mentioned as a kind of gift to officers that is allowed. Now, there is some dispute, what "buticulas" are, but _one_ interpretation is 'bottles made of bottle gourds (together with some content)'. Later on, the picture versions of the Tacuin sanitatis have a chapter on "cucurbite". E.g. the socalled "Hausbuch der Cerruti" in the National library of Austria shows bottle gourds under the heading "cucurbite". [BTW, this source also says something about soft and hard cheese in winter/summer, etc.] Then there are all the herbals. The Hortus sanitatis 1485 e.g. has a picture together with references to ancient authorities. Leonhard Fuchs 1543 in chapter 138 ("Von Krbs" 'Of pumkin/gourd') distinguishes several kinds & gives pictures. About the biggest ones, he says: "Vnd wrt zwar dise frucht zuo zeiten so gro/ als ein zimlicher kbel" (and, truely, this plant grows at times as big as a quite big tub/pail). ... Then there are the dietetic texts ... << I've been trailing this question for years >> This comes as no surprise. Go ahead. Th. Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:51:14 -0700 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - Pumpkins in Period? At 8:02 PM -0700 9/19/00, I wrote: >The word "pompon," according to the OED, has nothing to do with >pumpkins or gourds. But glancing through Thomas Dawson (1597), I find him using "pompon" for some kind of vegetable (an alternative to melon or cucumber), so it looks as though Lady Eileen is probably right that one of its meanings is an alternate form of "pumpkin." The recipe, incidentally, does not give me confidence in Dawson. He is soaking seeds in sugar water mixed with rose water, then drying the seeds and planting them, in order to produce such melons, the like of which have never been seen. And if you mix musk into the sugar water ... . - -- David/Cariadoc http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 0