gourds-msg – 12/15/14 gourds, pumpkins, squash. Which varieties were period. Recipes. NOTE: See also the files: root-veg-msg, peppers-msg, vegetarian-msg, turnips-msg, rec-leeks-msg, peas-msg, beans-msg, vegetables-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Uduido at aol.com Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Watermelon In a message dated 97-05-02 03:46:37 EDT, Linneah writes: <> The Luffa gourd (sponge) is an Old World plant and is extremely edible when it is very young (less than 6 inches). I have used (and continue to use) this gourd when when gourds are called for in a period recipe. Both winter and summer squashes are New World according to all the references I have read.. Lord Ras From: david friedman Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: SC - Watermelon >I have been told and read that all the squash we commonly eat is New >World. I, too, would like to know what the 'guord' referred to in >various recipes is. > >Clarissa From the Miscellany: Pumpkin, Squash, Gourd It seems to be well established that at least three of the four cultivated species of Cucurbita (C. pepo, C. moschata and C. maxima) existed in the New World long before Columbus; the fourth (C. ficifolia) is "ordinarily not thought of as a cultivated plant" (Whittaker), but apparently has been cultivated in the past. Whitaker argues, on the evidence of the absence of these species in the fifteenth century European herbals and their presence in the sixteenth century ones, that they were introduced into Europe from the New World. A variety of C. pepo similar to the squash now known as "Small Sugar" is illustrated in an herbal of 1542. What appears to be a field pumpkin is illustrated in 1560, with other varieties appearing in later herbals during the century. Whitaker concludes that "none of the cultivated species of Cucurbita were known to the botanists of the Western world before 1492." If so, all varieties of pumpkins, squash, and vegetable marrows are inappropriate before 1492; some were known in the sixteenth century, but may or may not have been sufficiently common to be used in feasts. There is, however, a plant translated as "gourd" in both Italian and Islamic cookbooks before 1492. The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti, which is 14th century, shows a "Cucurbite" that looks exactly like a green butternut squash-a fact of which Whitaker seems unaware when asserting the absence of all varieties of Cucurbita from pre-sixteenth century sources. It seems likely, however, that his conclusion was correct, and that what is shown in the picture and used in the recipes is not C. pepo but Lagenaria sicereia. "The white-flowered gourd, Lagenaria sicereia," seems to "have been common to both Old and New Worlds" (Whitaker). I am told that the Italian Edible Gourd is a species of Lagenaria and available from, among others, J.L. Hudson, Seedman (P.O.Box 1058, Redwood City, CA 94064). Simoons describes a Lagenaria still used in modern Chinese cooking. We have obtained what we think is the right gourd from a Chinese grocery store and used it in period recipes with satisfactory results. The taste and texture are somewhat similar to zucchini but less bitter. The Chinese, or perhaps Vietnamese, name for one variety, which the grower assured us had white flowers, is "opo." David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ From: Lasairina at aol.com Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:43:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Watermelon > I have been told and read that all the squash we commonly eat is New > World. I, too, would like to know what the 'guord' referred to in > various recipes is. > > Clarissa I found a recipe in the book "How to Cook Forsoothly," by Mistress Katrine de Baillie du Chat called -Gourdes in Potage- which recommends either zuchinni or cucumbers as the "gourd." I have made it several times at wars with the cucumbers, and there is never any leftovers... Lassar Fhina From: Uduido at aol.com Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:38:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC - Lagenaria << the Italian Edible Gourd is a species of Lagenaria and available from, among others, J.L. Hudson, Seedman (P.O.Box 1058, Redwood City, CA 94064). >> This is the species that I referred to as the Luffa Gourd (sponge). J.L. Hudson is an excellent source for exotic seeds from all over the world! Highly recommended! Their catalog is a reference source that is invaluable to any serious horticulturist/gardener. Luffa seeds are also carried by local sores and all major seed companys including Burpee. Lord Ras From: david friedman Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: SC - Watermelon >I found a recipe in the book "How to Cook Forsoothly," by Mistress Katrine de >Baillie du Chat called -Gourdes in Potage- which recommends either zuchinni >or cucumbers as the "gourd." I have made it several times at wars with the >cucumbers, and there is never any leftovers... > >Lassar Fhina The Chinese gourds we found, which we think are Lagenaria sicereia (sp?), which we think is the most likely candidate for the old world gourd, taste not unlike zucchini. Zucchini, of course, is Cucurbita pepo, and New World. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:26:52 -0500 (CDT) From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt) Subject: Re: SC - Columbus menu II From what I understand from the book and from what other people have posted, the squash family... (zucchini, pumpkins, winter squash are new world. The type that is old world is the gourd family which included luffa, chinese squash (obo) and gourds. I've eaten young luffas and gourds ( before they harden). zucchini it seems (as well as some of the others) were quickly accepted once they were introduced. They are within period but are not from the Old World. It appears that the old world gourds fell into disuse (maybe they do not taste as well, who can say) I don't you would be inaccurate to substitute zucchini for any gourd in a recipe since they started doing it within period. Clare St. John Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:47:17 -0400 (EDT) From: DianaFiona at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Squash << Can anyone tell me if 1) Squash is period 2) If so any recipes for them Lord Ragnar MacHardy of Clan MacHardy >> Well, technically, no. Squash as we think of them (Zucchini and yellow squash, and winter types) are New World critters. But there are Old World gourds that were eaten in the Middle East and Mediteranean in period and zucchini makes a reasonable substitute for those. Look for recipes in Roman food, Middle Eastern cookbooks like those in Cariadoc's collection, and later period Italian recipes. The gourds have a firmer, less watery texture than zucchini, so keep that in mind and adapt any recipes as needed. I've done "gourds" at least a couple of times for feasts, but I don't think any of the recipes can be imported to e-mail easily right now or I'd send them........ Ldy Diana Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:30:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Uduido at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Squash << Can anyone tell me if 1) Squash is period 2) If so any recipes for them Lord Ragnar MacHardy of Clan MacHardy >> No squash is not European period. It is a New World introduction. "Gourds" were used in period . The most probable candidate is the Luffa gourd which is very tasty when eaten young. Another candidate might be cucumbers that have been allowed to mature. This is also very edible when cooked properly. Because of the fuzzy nature of gourd and squash references and lack of documentation some cooks do use zucchini or winter squashes in place of guourds in the period recipes that call for such ingredients. This practice is at best questionable, IMHO. Lord Ras Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:04:44 -0400 (EDT) From: DianaFiona at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Squash << Because of the fuzzy nature of gourd and squash references and lack of documentation some cooks do use zucchini or winter squashes in place of guourds in the period recipes that call for such ingredients. This practice is at best questionable, IMHO. Lord Ras >> I don't know---I've grown a variety of the edible Italian gourds and they and zucchini are pretty interchangable for cooking puposes. Yes, the texture of the gourds is firmer, and the flavor is stronger, but recipes for one seem to generally work for the other. And since you can't, to my knowledge, easily buy any of the edible gourds in sufficient quantities to serve at a large feast, I think it's a reasonable substitute. I like it better than just tossing all the recipes for gourds out the window because we can't get the real item. Rather like using modern carrots for period ones.......... Ldy Diana, who would love to be able to grow the food for her feasts, if she just had enough space! Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:05:46 -0500 (EST) From: Jenne Heise To: SCA Arts list Subject: Pumpkins? Yes, I know this isn't strictly arts & sciences, but I'm _afraid_ to get on the Cooks' list-- too much traffic. In research a presentation on medieval use of herbs, I came across about four mentions of 'pompions' or 'pumpkins' supposedly in period. Rosetta Clarkson quotes 7th century monk Walafrid Strabo, on the uses of pumpkins, including being emptied, dried and used as a "bushel". Sophie Knab says they were on the menu at the wedding of Jadwiga of Poland and Jagiello of Lithuania in 1390-ish. Culpeper also mentions them. Aren't pumpkins a new world veggie? If so, what was Strabo talking about and what were Jadwiga and Jagiello eating? It would have to be a fairly LARGE gourd, to be used as a bushel basket or measure... I can't think of any that would qualify offhand. Help! This is driving me nuts! Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, aka Aunt Bunny, mka Jennifer Heise jenne at tulgey.browser.net Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:18:52 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Schuldenfrei To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Pumpkins? In research a presentation on medieval use of herbs, I came across about four mentions of 'pompions' or 'pumpkins' supposedly in period. Rosetta Clarkson quotes 7th century monk Walafrid Strabo, on the uses of pumpkins, including being emptied, dried and used as a "bushel". Sophie Knab says they were on the menu at the wedding of Jadwiga of Poland and Jagiello of Lithuania in 1390-ish. Culpeper also mentions them. Check out the page from Cariadoc's Miscellany: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/cooking_from_primary_sources.html Tibor Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 19:33:18 -0500 (EST) From: ALBAN at delphi.com To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Pumpkins? Jadwiga Zajaczkowa asked >>n research a presentation on medieval use of herbs, I came across about four mentions of 'pompions' or 'pumpkins' supposedly in period. Rosetta Clarkson quotes 7th century monk Walafrid Strabo, on the uses of pumpkins, including being emptied, dried and used as a "bushel". Sophie Knab says they were on the menu at the wedding of Jadwiga of Poland and Jagiello of Lithuania in 1390-ish. Culpeper also mentions them. Aren't pumpkins a new world veggie? If so, what was Strabo talking about and what were Jadwiga and Jagiello eating? It would have to be a fairly LARGE gourd, to be used as a bushel basket or measure... I can't think of any that would qualify offhand. << I just checked the Oxford English Dictionary; the earliest use of either "pumpkin" or "pompion" (both referring to the same type of plant/ squash) was in the mid 1500's. Now, whether or not they referred to a New World or an Old World plant I have no idea - but the plant is, at the very least, a period beastie. Alban From: John or Fraya Davis To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Pumpkins? Pumpkins are strictly New World. The only references I've found to them are as follows from "Food" by Waverly Root: "In 1540 or thereabouts, Hernando de Alvarado, acting as a scout for Coronado's penetration of the American Southwest, reported to his chief that the territory he had explored grew melons. They could not have been melons, Old World fruits which did not exist in American until the Europeans brought them there." "In 1584 Jacques Cartier reported from the St. Lawrence region that he had found there 'gros melons', translated into English not as 'big melons' but as 'pompions', pumpkins. As early as 1586, English botanists began writing about 'melons' and 'millions' as meaning pumpkins. They had picked the word up, perhaps, from Thomas Hariot, who in the same year had reported the presence in Virginia of vegetables 'called by us pompions, melons, and gourds, because they are of the like forms of those kinds in England'. 'The Europeans who encountered squashes and pumpkins in America had to compare them to melons or some other European vegetable or fruit because they had never seen anything quite like them before and had no word for them...we may make bold to assert that squashes and pumpkins are uniquely American and were completely unknown to the Old World before the time of Columbus." "I have one translation of [Charlemagne's recipe for squash soup] in French and another in English. The French translation of the word Charlemagne used is courge, 'squash'; but the English translation is 'gourd'." "Despite their speedy entry into botanical literature in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, squashes did not reach European tables in any numbers until the nineteenth. There is one reference (in a French source) to the introduction of the vegetable marrow into Enland about 1700, but the English themselves did not seem to be aware of it." Hope that helps. This books is invaluable to me when deciding what foods were eaten in period. I never realized potatoes were not eaten in England until the 1700s. Gillian Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:20:11 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - pumpkins The word "pumpkin" predates the introduction of the New World vegetable that now goes by that name. My guess is that it referred to some other edible gourd, probably Lageneria Sicereia (sp?), the white flowered gourd, which is our (my and Betty's) best guess at what the early cookbooks mean by terms such as "gourd" and "pumpkin." David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:30:49 -0400 From: llewmike at iwaynet.net Subject: Re: SC - Pumpkins (was: Needing help with a class....) Castelvetro published his work in England in 1614 after years of research. I have read several other sources on what he meant by pumpkins and have concluded that he may have meant the "white pumpkin" of the cucurbitas family. The full title is Brieve racconto di tutte le radici, di tuttte l'herbe et di tutti i frutti, che crudi o cotti in Italia si mangiano. LLEW Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 11:28:23 -0400 From: llewmike at iwaynet.net Subject: Re: SC - Pumpkins (was: Needing help with a class....) The "white pumpkin" was a large gourd of the Lagnaria family (not cucurbitas as I previously mentioned). It is a large white gourd introduced into Europe during Roman times according to Jane Grigson. After a little more research, I have come to the conclusion that what he meant were the old world variety because he describes not only making pies out of them but also cutting them into strips for eating. LLEW Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:05:53 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - gingered butternut squash soup (Was: Italian Ren Feast) > Seannach asked... > >I just found a modern recipe for gingered butternut squash soup that has > sweet potatoes in it, and am making it tonight to test out.....is there > any way this could be period?< > > Prolly not. It has sweet potatoes in it. But then, I have gotten somewhat > confused as to the legitimacy of yellow potatoes in late period Italy. > Some of us are saying that they were there, and others are saying nay. > > Since I was the original poster for the question of butternut squash being > period (can't find it in Culpeppers or other sources) I too would be > interested in this. > > Micaylah The references I have available suggest that the sweet potato (Ipomoea batatas) entered Italy about 1528 with haricot beans as part of a presentation to Pope Clement VII from Cortez's expedition into Mexico. The butternut squash (Cucurbita moschata) is much more of a problem. Cucurbita moschata is found in Africa, Asia, and both Americas. The genus contains winter squash, some pumpkins, and some gourds. Of particular interest are bottle gourds, which have been found in Egyptian and Mesoamerican tombs. While I have not been able to confirm it, I suspect butternuts are modern variants and bottle gourds or Japanese pumpkin would have been more likely to be used in period. Bear Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:31:26 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - gingered butternut squash soup (Was: Italian Ren Feast) > 1. I'm pretty sure C. Moschata is New World. > > 2. Isn't bottle gourd Lageneria sicereia (sp?). > > David/Cariadoc > http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ The Langenaria used to be the Old World gourds and the Cucurbita were primarily New World squashes, so you are probably correct. There have been some changes in taxonomy, but I haven't been able to tell if they are commonly accepted or under debate. Several sources commented on differences in taxonomy, but provided little specific information. The source I was quoting places C. moschata in Africa, Asia, and both North and South America and places the bottle gourd in C. moschata. It appears to be thorough, authoritative and accurate, however it may represent a particular academic heresy or I may have misread the information. I'm interested in determining a chronology for the variants of the species of Cucurbita, so I will be looking at this further. Bear Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:38:28 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - gingered butternut squash soup (Was: Italian Ren Feast) ddfr at best.com writes: << 2. Isn't bottle gourd Lageneria sicereia (sp?). David/Cariadoc >> Bottle gourds, bird's nest gourds, snake gourds and luffa gourds are all legenaria, SFAIK. They are all also very edible when picked young. In fact, I passed out several snake gourds at Pennsic to interested parties but have recieved no input about their experiments so far. My own experiments from those grown in my garden show luffa, bottle and snake gourds to be very tasty and they produced good results when used in all the period gourd/squash/pumpkin (e.g. pompion) recipes that I tried. Ras Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:41:35 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: SC - Pumpkins/gourds (Was: gingered butternut squash soup) Cariadoc said: >> 1. I'm pretty sure C. Moschata is New World. >> >> 2. Isn't bottle gourd Lageneria sicereia (sp?). >> and Bear replied: >The Langenaria used to be the Old World gourds and the Cucurbita were >primarily New World squashes, so you are probably correct. There have been >some changes in taxonomy, but I haven't been able to tell if they are >commonly accepted or under debate. Several sources commented on differences >in taxonomy, but provided little specific information. The source I was >quoting places C. moschata in Africa, Asia, and both North and South America >and places the bottle gourd in C. moschata. It appears to be thorough, >authoritative and accurate, however it may represent a particular academic >heresy or I may have misread the information. > >I'm interested in determining a chronology for the variants of the species >of Cucurbita, so I will be looking at this further. > >Bear About ten years ago I dug into the botanical literature looking for what gourds, squash, pumpkin, etc would have been used in period. I had a picture from a pre-Columbus _Taciunum Sanitatas_ of some that are green-skinned and shaped somewhere between butternut and zucchini (i.e. long with some swelling toward the bottom end), and the plants have white flowers. I found, among others, the following article: Whitaker, Thomas W., "American Origin of the Cultivated Cucurbits," Annals of the Missouri Botanical Garden, 1947. His conclusion, on a variety of evidence ranging from what seeds and rinds have been found in what ancient garbage dumps to what the 15th and 16th century herbals show, is that all or almost all squash you find in the grocery belong to one of three New World species of the genus Cucurbita (there is one Old World species of that genus, but it isn't cultivated). Cucurbita pepo includes zucchini, the standard orange pumpkin, yellow summer squash, (I think) acorn squash, and various others. Cucurbita moschata includes butternut and some others I don't remember. Cucurbita maxima includes Hubbard squash and some others that get really big. He didn't really go into the question of what Europeans ate before the New World squashes come in, but he did mention the White-Flowered Gourd, Lagenaria sicereia, as something that people have eaten. (At least some, and maybe all, of the New World species have yellow flowers.) A few years later we came across the book _Food in China_ by Frederick J. Simoons, CRC Press, Boca Raton 1991. He listed Lagenaria sicereia (calling it the bottle gourd) as still eaten in China, and had a line drawing consistant with the _Taciunum Sanitatas_ picture mentioned above. So armed with his book, we visited Chinatown. We had a Latin name and an English name and a picture and the people in the store had a Chinese name and a Vietnamese name, so I won't swear we got the right thing, but we took it home and tried it in some of Platina's recipes. The taste was probably closer to zucchini than any other common squash I know, but not as bitter. We have found the same thing since sold by Chinese or Vietnamese merchants; the name at least one of them gave it is "opo" and he told us it had white flowers. I have also seen white-flowered gourd grown in a Farm Park near Cleveland, though I didn't get to taste those. One of the neat things about the SCA is the chance to do research on thoroughly off-the-wall topics. Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:50:57 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - Period squashes SMaynard at qtrndss1.telstra.com.au writes: << Is there a period alternative? Willianm=-) >> Well, that's a tough question. Elizabeth has just about covered it in a previous post. There is also the small matter of whether the 'pompion' recipes from period are referring to a squash that resembles our winter squashes. Most people erroneously assume that this is the case because of circumstantial evidence or modern observations. I tend to think that the white flowered edible gourds are the squash/pumpkins being referred to. I also feel that the name for our pumpkins was not applied because the fruits resembled those grown in Europe but rather because the plant resembled that which was grown in Europe. Edible gourds can be used in all the period recipes calling for 'pumpkins' or gourds. Most call for the vegetable to be 'sliced' or 'chopped' unlike modern pumpkin recipes which call for mashing. When the bird's nest, bottle, snake or loofa gourds are used in period recipes, the end result is very good. The fact that most modern recipes use winter squash is irrelevant because there are modern recipes that use zucchini and patty pans, which are summer squashes that have a flavor very similar to the edible gourds. Ras Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:54:00 EST From: Seton1355 at aol.com Subject: SC - my medieval dinner party - long Last night I had some mundane friends over and served them a medieval feast. They really enjoyed it and were interested in the background of the recipes. The evening went off well so I thought I'd post the recipes I used. Phillipa ***Winter Squash or Pumpkin Soup*** The Medieval Kitchen Redon, Sabban, Serventi University of Chicago Press 1998 SQUASH. For squash, Peel them and cut them into slices. Remove the seeds if there are any and cook them in water in a pan. Then drain them and rinse them in cold water. Squeeze them and chop them finely. Mix with some beef and other meat broth and add cow's milk and mix half a dozen egg yolks. Put through a seive into the broth and milk. On fast days use the cooking water from dried peas or almond milk and butter. 5 1/2 lbs winter squash or pumpkin 4 C almond milk - made with a little more than 4 cups of water and 2/3 C almonds 4 Tbsp butter salt to taste Peel the squash and remove the seeds. Cut into 1" chunks and cook on boiling salted water for 10 minutes. The squash must remain firm and must not fall apart. Drain and press gently through a seive to remove excess water. Chop to a coarse puree with a knife or food processor. Place the puree in a sauce pan, add the almond milk and butter and bring to a boil. Check for salt before serving This was the Lenten recipe. It was OK, but it didn't "send" me. My guests, however, had 2 helpings! The texture of the finished product was like eating pumpkin straight out of the can. I just found another pumpkin soup recipe in this book that I like better. I'll try that next time. Anyway, this was my menu...oh yes, I also made fried potatoes, no recipe. Everyone liked everything, includeing my picky son! Phillipa Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 17:21:03 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - where do you get these gourds , Please? Seton1355 at aol.com wrote: > I did not know, until after I made the meal, My Lord, and all I had was canned > pumpkin anyway...BUT.....I wanted to try the soup again using a different > squash so thank you for pointing me in the right direction! But where do you > get these gourds? I've never heard of them. Do they go by another name? > Thank you, > Phillipa I believe they're known as long squashes, and I _think_ they're the same as what the Chinese call the fuzzy or hairy melon; while they're shiny on the surface, they do have a faint layer of peach fuzz. You can often find them at Asian markets. Adamantius Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:35:33 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - where do you get these gourds , Please? Seton1355 at aol.com writes: << But where do you get these gourds? I've never heard of them. Do they go by another name? Phillipa >> You can get these gourds from my garden in season or you can go to Agway or any other garden center and buy the seeds of 'Italian Edible Gourds' or the seeds of 'Luffa sponge' gourds. As you know from personal experience, our local makets are not noted for supplying anything that smacks of food that the majority of the world's population eats except on rare occasions so the closest thing you will probably find at our local markets is zucchini (also new world) which has a texture and taste similar to white flowered gourds. This year I plan on putting some of these up in the freezer so Guild members will have them to 'play' with in the off season. Ras Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:09:44 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - where do you get these gourds , Please? At 3:03 PM -0500 3/14/99, Seton1355 at aol.com wrote: >I did not know, until after I made the meal, My Lord, and all I had was canned >pumpkin anyway...BUT.....I wanted to try the soup again using a different >squash so thank you for pointing me in the right direction! But where do you >get these gourds? I've never heard of them. Do they go by another name? >Thank you, The old world gourds are still used in Chinese cooking, and we have gotten what we think are Lagenaria from chinese grocery stores. I say "think" because we had a book on the history of Chinese cooking with an English name and a latin name and a picture, and the people in the grocery store had gourds and a Vietnamese name (and maybe a Chinese name--it was a while ago), so we aren't sure we got the right thing. One possibility, if you can talk to someone familiar with growing the gourds, is to ask what color the flowers are. I think the "Italian edible gourds" that one sometimes sees in seed catalogs are lagenereia too. What you are looking for are edible gourds with white flours and scientific name Lagenaria sicereia. We have been told that one source for the seeds is J.L. Hudson, Seedman (P.O.Box 1058, Redwood City, CA 94064). The ones we found tasted more like zucchini than any of the other squashes, so that might be a good substitution. On the other hand, most of the familiar pumpkin/squash things are one species (Cucurbita pepo), which demonstrates how wide a variation you can get with a single species; for all I know there are Lagenaria equivalents of pumpkins etc. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:43:29 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - Gourds troy at asan.com writes: << Most obvious thing that comes to mind is the hairy/fuzzy melon, a.k.a. white-flowered gourd, a.k.a. long squash, which is apparently the medieval European cucurbit gourd. Adamantius >> In this we must disagree. Medieval illuminations which show pictures of 'guords' most often illustrate them as long and skinny or bottle shaped or cucumber shaped. The Italian ediblre gourd, the luffa gourd and the bottle (or bird's house) gourd are all edible when young . These are the most likely candidates. On what evidence do your base your belief that fuzzy gourds from the Orient would have been used? Cariadoc also mentions fuzzy. I suspect that the relative ease of finding that type in US markets is the major criteria for your suggestion. Please correct me if I am wrong and provide greater details supporting your position. Ras Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 11:39:35 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Gourds LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > << hairy/fuzzy melon, a.k.a. > white-flowered gourd, a.k.a. long squash, which is apparently the > medieval European cucurbit gourd. > > Adamantius >> > > In this we must disagree. Medieval illuminations which show pictures of > 'guords' most often illustrate them as long and skinny or bottle shaped or > cucumber shaped. The Italian ediblre gourd, the luffa gourd and the bottle > (or bird's house) gourd are all edible when young . These are the most likely > candidates. > > On what evidence do your base your belief that fuzzy gourds from the Orient > would have been used? Same evidence as you, probably. Do you mean Orient, by any chance? White-flowered gourds, fuzzy or hairy melons, are more or less indigenous to the Eurasian landmass, and appear, and did appear, in the cuisines of the Far East, India, Persia, etc. The illustrations (we're probably talking about the same ones) show pale green oblong fruits, somewhat fatter at the flower end than at the stem, sometimes slightly curved. Also small white blossoms. Up close, the melons have a slight down on them, more akin to the fuzzy stuff you can rub off the skin of a quince than to peachfuzz, hence the appellation, fuzzy. > Cariadoc also mentions fuzzy. I suspect that the > relative ease of finding that type in US markets is the major criteria for > your suggestion. Please correct me if I am wrong and provide greater details > supporting your position. Consider yourself offically corrected: if that were the case, I would suggest the period European gourd was in fact frozen peas ; ) My position is based on the fact that the melon/gourd could easily, from a scientific standpoint, have been grown in period Europe, and looks quite a lot like the illustrations in several different versions of Tacuinum Sanitatis. While this doesn't prove that they _were_ the period European gourd, it allows for a possibility equally viable to that of the various Italian gourds, which are possibly of the same species anyway. I should point out, though, that bottleneck gourds (which a man down the street from me grows) really don't look too much like the period illustrations I've seen. There may have been a bit of intervarietal hybridization to enhance that bottle shape in the intervening years. Some confusion may be caused by the fact that Tacuinum Sanitatis occasionally depicts items with which the illustrator was not personally familiar, so we can't always rely 100% on the illustrations (the bananas are cute, though). The similarities between the gourds as illustrated and fuzzy melons are pretty uncanny, however. But yes, it's true that fuzzy melons may be more available in the commercial ethnic markets than Italian gourds, which is probably why I often see people looking as if they might be Italian buying fuzzy melons in the Indian and Chinese markets near me. Of course they could be sauteeing them with beef in oyster sauce... ; ) . One never knows, do one? Adamantius Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:01:12 -0400 From: Angie Malone Subject: Re: SC - cordials + Borage If you have a local farm and garden store try there. In NY we have places called Agway, where they have borage seeds. I ordered mine from Shumway seed company a few years ago, but haven't planted more since. I also like Pinetree Seeds. http://www.superseeds.com You can order smaller seed packets from them to try different things and the seed packets are about half the price of the larger ones. They also have some interesting possibly period seeds. They have the edible gourd seeds. They are in the italian vegetable seed section and here's the blurb: IT66. CUCUZZI (55 days) Italian edible gourd. You can tell that these are truly gourds from the leaf shape and the white flowers, but when harvested young, the uses are identical to zucchini. The flavor is stronger, however--difficult to describe. Vines are long and spreading. As with the zucchetta tromboncino, if you don't harvest them young, these will grow to a remarkable length, close to 4 feet. 20 seeds .55 Angeline Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:34:29 +1000 From: "HICKS, MELISSA" Subject: SC - Gourds: Live and growing Greetings all, This is from Rowan who is unfortunately unsubscribed at the moment. She is growing langanaria sicaria (sic). Mel. > Adamantius wrote: > >> << Most obvious thing that comes to mind is the hairy/fuzzy melon, a.k.a. > >> white-flowered gourd, a.k.a. long squash, which is apparently the > >> medieval European cucurbit gourd. > > Ras said: > >> In this we must disagree. Medieval illuminations which show pictures of > >> 'guords' most often illustrate them as long and skinny or bottle shaped or > >> cucumber shaped. The Italian ediblre gourd, the luffa gourd and the bottle > ... > > Well, I've just grown one from seed (thanks Drake) and you are both right! > The vine had white flowers, about half the size of zucchhini flowers, but > otherwise grew rather like a pumpkin - it was a climber. The resulting gourd > is long and skinny, rather like a lebanese cucumber. I picked the sole > result when it was 18" long. It has a bright mid green shiny skin, covered > in little hairs - it is definitely fuzzy, but in a delicate way. It's > sitting on my bench at home right now, waiting for me to decide how I'll > cook it... > > I will try to take a photo and post it, if it works out... > > Rowan Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:06:07 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Gourds troy at asan.com writes: <<..........The illustrations (we're probably talking about the same ones)>> I don't think so. The illustration in the herbal clearly shows a bottle shape that is globular at the stem end thinning in the middle and widening to a fatter globe on the flower end. In the background are long skinny objects which could be interpreted as very long cucumbers or Italian edible gourds. Interspersed throughout are rather samller objects that could be cucumbers but the pointing ends suggest luffas to me rather than the former. Both Italian edible gourds and bottle gourds have a dense fuzz covering them when they are young. I haven't grown luffas in a while so I can't say if they have fuzz when young or not. One other point that might be taken into consideration is that although the growing season for all 3 types of gourds mentioned above is rather long, the fuzzy melon takes a considerably longer season to mature. Apparantly this is an area that needs more study. :-) Ras Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 22:48:01 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Gourds: Live and growing "HICKS, MELISSA" wrote: > This is from Rowan who is unfortunately unsubscribed at the moment. She is > growing langanaria sicaria (sic). Mel. > > > > Well, I've just grown one from seed (thanks Drake) and you are both right! > > The vine had white flowers, about half the size of zucchhini flowers, but > > otherwise grew rather like a pumpkin - it was a climber. The resulting > > gourd > > is long and skinny, rather like a lebanese cucumber. I picked the sole > > result when it was 18" long. It has a bright mid green shiny skin, covered > > in little hairs - it is definitely fuzzy, but in a delicate way. It's > > sitting on my bench at home right now, waiting for me to decide how I'll > > cook it... > > > > I will try to take a photo and post it, if it works out... And in the mean time, check this out: http://www.nre.vic.gov.au/trade/asiaveg/thes-34.htm for a photo of fuzzy melons. One possible source of confusion might be that simply knowing the supposed botanical/taxonomical name of something living doesn't necessary enable you to distinguish it from something else, since frequently a species will have more than one genus name on record, and sometimes even more than one entire species designation. So, for example, knowing that the fuzzy melon is benincasa hispada isn't especially helpful when others know it as cucurbita hispada, and other sources refer to the winter melon (an entirely different squash and looking nothing at all like the fuzzy melon, being more or less spherical) as both the fuzzy or hairy melon _and_ as cucurbita hispada. Seems as if even some of the botanists are somewhat confused on this point, but the lagenaria and benincasa genera seem to have nearly identical specimens of cucurbit gourds. As Ras says, more research is indicated, but at the end of the research trail one may find that it makes little difference in the end, and there may actually be no "one, true Gourd", provided that one understands the basic concept that neither zucchini nor bumpy New World ornamental pumpin-type gourds are what the medieval European recipes are talking about. Adamantius Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:33:41 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - New World Foods-list > I have a question regarding Pumpkin. In Apicius, there are many recipes that > specify pumpkin. (Book III) The latin word they use is cucurbitas. Granted, > whatever "pumpkin" they are referring to in those recipes is not what we > have today. There are references to green string beans, and "marrow" as > zucchini squash. This may be where the problem lies in determining what is > and is not "period". How do we tell the difference between what the original > recipe said, and the language the translaters use? > > Aldyth > Aldyth at aol.com The curcubitas referred to in Apicius are almost certainly members of the genus Lagenaria, which contains calabashes, dipper and bottle gourds. The Lagenaria are believed to be of African origin and spread to Asia and Europe in prehistoric times. They are found in New World archeological sites beginning around 7000 BC. The dispersion to the New World is believed to have been by current drift from Africa or Asia, although the Diffusionist claim it as evidence of commerce between the New and Old Worlds in prehistoric times. The Lagenaria and the genus Cucurbita are both members of the family Cucurbitaceae. The Cucurbita are the squashes and pumpkins from the New World. While there is a botanical theory that some of the Cucurbita have an Asian origin, none are found in Europe and there is no evidence that any reached Europe prior to Columbus. I tend to believe they were transported as seed from the New World and quickly adopted to replace the Old World gourds in cooking. Vincenzo Campi's The Fruit Seller (circa 1580) shows a green pumpkin-shaped squash (which was identified as a "marrow" in accompanying text) and what is probably a pumpkin (stem hidden, making actual identification impossible. While the marrow squash is a large, watery version of the zucchini, the identification on the above squash as a marrow makes me think the Brits may use the term very loosely. BTW, your string bean is probably a yard long bean, which is of Old World origin. Bear Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 10:52:01 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Period Pumpkin Recipes? lilinah at earthlink.net writes: << Are there any authentic (obviously late) "period"recipes for pumpkin? >> This depends on what you mean by 'pumpkin.' The word was used for old world varieties of several gourd species some of which looked little liked the New World food which also received the old world name of 'pumpkin.' Many period recipes exist for squash or pumpkin. If you have Scully's The Medieval Kitchen, there is a nice one for a broth-squash based pottage that you might find useful for your purposes. I have tried it using several species of old world 'pumpkin' including immature bushel basket, birdhouse, Italian Edible and loofa gourds with excellent results. The translated and original recipes from Libro de arte coquinaria by Maestro Martinoas as they appear in Scully follows: Mondale como vogliono essene, et poi cocile con brodo di carne, overo con acqua et mettevi un pocha de cipolla secundo la quantita che tu vorrai fare. Et quando pareca cotta cacciala fore, et passa ogni cosa per la cocchiara straforata, overo pistale molto bene, et metteli accocere in una pignatta con brodo grasso, et con un pocho d'gresto. Et siano un pocho gialle di zafrano; et quando sono cotte toglile dal focho et lasciale un pocho refredare. Dapoi togli di rossi d'ova secundo la quantita et sbattili con un pocho di caso vecchio et gitaggli in le ditte zucche menando continuamente col cocchiaro accio che non si prendano: et fa le menestre et mectevi sopra spetie dolci. To cook squashes, peel them as they should be, and then cook them with meat broth or water; add a little onion according to the quantity you want to make. And when they seem cooked, take them out and put them through a strainer or pound them very well; and cook them in a pot with rich broth and a little verjuice. And they should be slightly yellow with saffron, and when they are cooked, remove them from the fire and leave them a while to cool. Then take egg yolks according to the quantity and beat them with a little aged cheese, and add them to the squash, stirring constantly with the spoon so that they do not stick; dress your bowls, and top with sweet spices. Ras Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:11:51 -0600 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Period Pumpkin Recipes? Someone wrote (I'm picking this one up second hand) > >Even if it isn't New World pumpkin, are there any European cookbooks > >that actually refer to pumpkin or pompon or pompion? The OED entry under pompion quotes Tusser, 1570 or so, as saying (I think) that it is boiled or cooked in butter in May. But that doesn't sound like pumpkin, given the date, and the West Kingdom contest is fall, not spring. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:04:50 -0600 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Period pumpkin recipes At 10:34 AM -0500 3/1/00, Robin Carroll-Mann wrote: >I've been checking through the Spanish sources, since they seem likely >to contain late-period pumpkin recipes. the trouble is that the Spanish >word for pumpkin "calabaza" also refers to various gourds and >squashes. I did find one recipe that looks promising. It's various ways >of stuffing calabazas. The first variation calls for scooping out the >insides of the calabaza, and filling it with a mixture that includes ground >veal or pork, bacon, cheese, eggs, raisins, spices, small chickens, and >stuffed pigeons. Is there anything in the cucurbita family that's large >enough to accomodate this assortment, other than a pumpkin? Why are you limiting yourself to the cucurbita family--all of whose members are, I think, New World. _The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti_, which predates the discovery of the New World, shows large edible gourds, presumably Lageneria Sicereia (sp?). Given how wide the range of size is in C. Pepo, I wouldn't be surprised if there were lageneria big enough for what you describe, but I don't know. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 01:46:03 +0100 From: Thomas Gloning Subject: SC - Period Pumpkin Recipes? << but so far nothing with a name even vaguely like pumpkin. ... are there any European cookbooks that actually refer to pumpkin or pompon or pompion? >> The OED (1933 vol. X 117a) quotation s.v. "sugared" might lead to a recipe: 1600 Surflet Countrie Farme 252 To make cucumbers or pompions sugred, you must steepe the seed in water that is well sweetned with sugar or honie, .. and so sowe them. The quotations s.v. "pumpkin" are beginning only 1647. The entry "pompion" has quotations from 1545 onwards, e.g. 1587 Harrison ... An acre of ground .. whereon to set cabbages .. pompons, or such like stuffe. 1573 Tusser ... Herbes and rootes to boile or to butter. .. Pompions in May. (OED1 Vol. VII 1104b). Alas, there are not recipes, but the latter quotation at least seems to mention a kind of preparation (depends on what was left out in the quotation). The German "Rheinfr‰nkisches Kochbuch" (c. 1445) has a recipe for "K?rbes musz", and there are several recipes for "zuche" in the 15th (or 14th?) century Anonimo Veneziano published by Faccioli and Frati... But I assume these are not the species you are looking for. The variety of species and names in this family is really impressing. Is there an inventory of the different species and of the European expressions for these species somewhere? Best, Thomas Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:29:48 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: SC - period pumpkin recipes? In response to Thomas Gloning, i'm forwarding a message that Christine A Seelye-King was kind enough to send me. It has been slightly edited for layout, but i have not changed the content. >--------- Forwarded message ---------- >From: khkeeler >To: herbalist at Ansteorra.ORG >Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:09:30 -0500 >Subject: Re: HERB - the period pumpkin > >RAISYA wrote: >> I've been working on figuring out what the period pumpkin is, and I'd like >> to hear from other people. >> There's an illumination of the period pumpkin in the 14th century TACUINUM >> SANITATIS. Both the leaves and fruit of the plant look like a butternut >> squash. The modern pumpkin and most squash belong to Cucurbita pepo and >> Cucurbita maxima which originated in N. and S. America, while the butternut > > squash belongs to Cucurbita moschata. > > > I think the butternut squash makes the most sense, but maybe there's something >> I haven't come across. Has anyone else looked into this? >> Raisya Khorivovna > >My sources are >NW Simmonds, Evolution of crop plants (Longman 1976) >JF Hancock, Plant evolution and the origin of crop species (Prentice Hall 1992) >BB Simpson and MC Ogorzaly Economic botany: plants in our world >(McGraw-Hill, 2nd ed. 1995). > >As you say, New World plants are >Cucurbita pepo (summer squash, marrow, pumpkin, zuccini, acorn squash, >crookneck, spaghetti, ornamental squashes) >but also >C. moschata (winter squash, butternut squash, pumpkin) >C. maxima (winter squash, pumpkin, winter marrow) >C. mixta (winter squash, hubbard squash, turban squash, pumpkin) >C. ficifolia (fig-leaf gourd). >Simpson and Ogorzaly suggest ways to distinguish the above (p. 126). > >Totally separate and much more complicated are Old World members of this >family (Cucurbitaceae). >Cucumis sativus (cucumber) originally from India, >Cucumis melo (muskmelon, cantalope) Africa, India, >Citrullus lanatus (watermelon) South Africa , >Languinaria siceraria (white-flowered gourd) Africa, the Americas >Luffa acutangula, L. cylindrica (luffa) Asia. >Watermelons are very old: appear in Dioscorides, were being grown in >China by 1200 AD >Cucumis melo doesn't occur in Egyptian or Greek writing, does in texts >from the end of the Roman empire--current varieties include cantaloupe, >Perisan, musk, Cranshaw and honeydew melons >Cucumbers are known from ancient Egypt, were widely dispersed across the OW >white-flowered gourd - known from Ecuador and Peru 7,000 yrs ago, Egypt >3,000 yrs ago- currently thought to be a natural disjunction with the >plant naturally occurring both places. >Simpson and Ogorzaly call the Old World cucurbits "dessert foods", the >New World "staple foods" which fits the distribution given above. But >is a problem for interpretting Period pumpkins. >On the other hand, the Simmonds book makes a casual reference to a firm, >hard greenish watermelon called citron, used for feeding livestock (but, >likely in S. Africa)- so there may be more varieties of these fruits >than my sources deal with. > Good question, I'll see what less direct references suggest. >Agnes deLanvallei, Mag Mor, Calontir >-- >mka Kathy Keeler >kkeeler1 at unl.edu Some other messages in the thread indicate that "family" is used where "genus" should have been used. Also as there has been some botanical reorganization, some plants appear in more than one species, because they were so listed in different books. If i am understanding correctly, the long, pale green Italian gourd is a Languinaria. Please, anyone, correct me if i have confused things. The plant that Pinetree Seeds is selling under Italian Vegetables - Gourds-Edible - --- from on-line catalog --- IT66. CUCUZZI (55 days) Italian edible gourd. You can tell that these are truly gourds from the leaf shape and the white flowers, but when harvested young, the uses are identical to zucchini. The flavor is stronger, however--difficult to describe. Vines are long and spreading. As with the zucchetta tromboncino, if you don't harvest them young, these will grow to a remarkable length, close to 4 feet. 20 seeds .55 - --- end quote from catalog --- I could find no gourds on-line at Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds. Anahita al-shazhiyya Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:52:35 -0500 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" Subject: Re: SC - Period pumpkin recipes And it came to pass on 1 Mar 00,, that david friedman wrote: > At 10:34 AM -0500 3/1/00, Robin Carroll-Mann wrote: > >I've been checking through the Spanish sources, since they seem likely to > >contain late-period pumpkin recipes. the trouble is that the Spanish > >word for pumpkin "calabaza" also refers to various gourds and squashes. [snip] > >Is there anything in the cucurbita family > >that's large enough to accomodate this assortment, other than a pumpkin? > > Why are you limiting yourself to the cucurbita family--all of whose > members are, I think, New World. ::sigh:: That's what comes of relying on my memory, especially when I'm feeling fuzzy-headed. I was mistakenly thinking that all the Old World and New World gourds/squashes were different varieties of cucurbita. Thank you for the correction. > _The Four Seasons of the House of > Cerruti_, which predates the discovery of the New World, shows large > edible gourds, presumably Lageneria Sicereia (sp?). Given how wide the > range of size is in C. Pepo, I wouldn't be surprised if there were > lageneria big enough for what you describe, but I don't know. In looking at the other recipes that I have access to, it's become even clearer that the term calabaza is used generically to refer to that category of vegetable. Some of the recipes do specify that the calabaza should be large or small or tender, according to the requirements of that particular dish. The recipe for Torta de Calabazas says that one can cook all varieties of calabaza in this manner. So I reluctantly conclude that there is no way for me to know which (if any) of the calabaza recipes refer to pumpkin, or a pumpkin-like gourd. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 21:12:35 ESTFrom: LrdRas at aol.comSubject: Re: SC - Re: period pumpkin seed sourcesalm4 at cornell.edu writes:<< I'll let people know because I plan on ordering the seeds from Baker's and trying to grow them. >>Great. We can compare notes. :-) Regarding the time from seed to harvest. This time is until the first gourds bearing 'hard' shells are ready. The time until harvest would be considerably shorter for use as food. All gourds should be used when young as they are inedible when they reach a mature hard shelled size. Also the skins are tender and thin until they start to mature. Basically, if you cannot puncture the skin easily with a fingernail the gourd is too large to use for food purposes.Ras Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 22:45:29 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - period pumpkin recipes? TerryD at Health.State.OK.US writes: << Pardon Ras, but you have a terminology error. Gourds are members of the family Cucurbitaceae. They are not part of the genus Cucurbita. >> Yes, that is what I meant. Also, loofas are very edible when young. Very good in fact. Ras Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 22:00:12 -0500 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" Subject: SC - Stuffed gourds Here's the maybe-pumpkin recipe from Granado. Source: Diego Granado, _Libro del Arte de Cozina_ (Spanish, 1599) Translation: Lady Brighid ni Chiarain (Robin Carroll-Mann) PARA RELLENAR DE DIVERSAS MANERAS LAS CALABAZAS -- To stuff gourds in various ways If you wish to cook the gourds, diligently clean them of their rinds, taking care not to break them. Make a round opening at the part where the flower is, and the stem, and with a knife remove all that is inside. And stuff it with a mixture made from lean meat of veal, or of pork chopped with an equal amount of lean and fatty bacon, and adding cheese, eggs, raisins, common spices, and saffron. And have small chickens and pigeons, stuffed, and put them in the gourd with the said mixture, and when it is full cover it with some round slices of the same gourd. And put it in a proportionate vessel, in such a way that it cannot move, with enough broth to come up to more than halfway, covered with streaky bacon cut into slices, or with salted pig's belly. This is done so that the gourd should take on flavor and should not be insipid. And in the broth put pepper, cinnamon, and saffron. And cause it to cook over the coals, keeping the vessel covered so that it cannot breathe, and when it has boiled a little while, just until the mixture has compressed, add more broth and let it finish cooking. And when it is cooked, strain the broth from the same vessel, and put the gourd on a plate and serve it hot with the bacon all around. You can also fill the gourd with milk, beaten eggs, sugar, and streaky bacon cut into bits. You can also make it in another manner. And that will be, having made an opening without taking off the rind, remove the interior and with dexterity arrange slices of lean bacon inside, on the bottom as well as on the sides, and have ready uncooked yellow stuffings cut up, or truly just the mixture, and make a layer of it on the bottom. And take pigeons, chickens, and quail, and other small birds cut up, the entrails and the bones removed, and sprinkled with pepper, cinnamon and cloves and nutmeg. And put them one by one in the gourd, fitting them with the same mixture of stuffing for intestines. And at the end, upon these birds put a slice of veal sprinkled with the said spices, which should cover all the mixture. Then cover the opening with the same part of the gourd that you took out, and wrap the gourd in a fold of paper and tie it with a thread, and put it in the oven which is somewhat less hot than if you were going to cook bread in it. After two hours take it out and untie the paper and serve it hot. Note: stuffings (rellenos) are mentioned in many other recipes. They seem to be a mixture of chopped meats and seasonings, sometimes formed into various shapes and sizes, sometimes used to fill intestines in the manner of a sausage. Fennel is a seasoning in many of these stuffing recipes, so Italian sausage mixture might work for redacting this recipe. I believe that a yellow stuffing would have saffron in it, but that's only a guess on my part. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 15:47:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Jenne Heise Subject: SC - gourds and pompions Oh HELP! I've been trailing this question for years, and I'm still no closer to a coherent explanation. What _is_ the period European 'pompion', aka 'pumpkin'? It appears before Columbus, and Walafrid of Strabo (10th century) notes that the big ones are suitable for making 'bushels' -- bushel baskets-- out of. Which means that they were somewhat globular and also big enough to carry stuff in when hollowed out. They were also eaten; they appear on the account books for the reign of Jadwiga and Jagiello in Poland (1386-1399). Does anyone have any kind of lead on this? Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne at tulgey.browser.net Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 15:25:51 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - gourds and pompions Prior to Columbus, the gourds and pompions are probably members of the genus Lagenaria (including calabashes, dippers, and bottle gourds). The Lagenaria are believed to originate in Africa and are found in both the New and Old Worlds. The New World Lagenaria are believed to have been brought to the Americas from Africa by accidental dispersion via ocean currents. In general, gourds are members of the family Cucurbitaceae having hard, durable shells. The squashes and pumpkins of the New World are members of the genus Cucurbita. The common names of similar members of the Lagenaria were applied to them when the Europeans found them. The similarity probably led to the rapid adaption of the Cucurbita in Europe, as evidenced in a number of 16th Century paintings dealing with food stuffs. There is a scientific debate as to the possible Asian origin of some members of the Cucurbita, but it is a fairly safe bet that the ones in Europe arrived from the New World after 1492. Other genera of the Cucurbitaceae are Cucumis, containing the cucumbers and the melons (except the watermelon), Citrullis, the watermelons, and Luffa, loofahs. All of these are of Old World origin. Bear Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 00:54:14 +0200 From: Thomas Gloning Subject: Re: SC - gourds and pompions << What _is_ the period European 'pompion', aka 'pumpkin'? It appears before Columbus, and Walafrid of Strabo (10th century) notes that the big ones are suitable for making 'bushels' -- bushel baskets-- out of. Which means that they were somewhat globular and also big enough to carry stuff in when hollowed out. They were also eaten; they appear on the account books for the reign of Jadwiga and Jagiello in Poland (1386-1399). >> AHH! Walahfrid Strabo! I was rowing around his island, the Reichenau in the Bodensee, in 1989, thinking: "Here is where Walahfrid lived more than 1100 years ago". A fine author. He died in 849; he once was abbot at the Reichenau. _Strabo_ means 'the cross-eyed, the squinting'. The "cucurbita" described in his 'Hortulus' is a bottle-gourd, according to Stoffler, the editor of the Hortulus, and according to Marzell, who compiled a multi-volume dictionary on German plant names and who wrote a short article about "Die Pflanzen des 'Hortulus'" (The plants of the 'Hortulus'). Only in case both of us talk about the cucurbita-chapter, I wonder if the _vasum_ in the passage "... in assiduos formarier usus // Vasorum poterit ..." could be rendered as "'bushels' -- bushel baskets"; the rest of the passage speaks about how to make a vessel/ bottle from the gourds, to preserve wine for some time. Cucurbita is also mentioned in the plant list of the 9th century Capitulare de Villis; Günther Franz translates "Flaschenkürbis" (bottle gourd), thereby relying on older authors on the question, too. In addition, at the beginning of the capitulare there is sort of an anti-corruption passage, and in this passage "buticulas" are mentioned as a kind of gift to officers that is allowed. Now, there is some dispute, what "buticulas" are, but _one_ interpretation is 'bottles made of bottle gourds (together with some content)'. Later on, the picture versions of the Tacuin sanitatis have a chapter on "cucurbite". E.g. the socalled "Hausbuch der Cerruti" in the National library of Austria shows bottle gourds under the heading "cucurbite". [BTW, this source also says something about soft and hard cheese in winter/summer, etc.] Then there are all the herbals. The Hortus sanitatis 1485 e.g. has a picture together with references to ancient authorities. Leonhard Fuchs 1543 in chapter 138 ("Von Kürbs" 'Of pumkin/gourd') distinguishes several kinds & gives pictures. About the biggest ones, he says: "Vnd würt zwar dise frucht zuo zeiten so groß/ als ein zimlicher kübel" (and, truely, this plant grows at times as big as a quite big tub/pail). ... Then there are the dietetic texts ... << I've been trailing this question for years >> This comes as no surprise. Go ahead. Th. Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:51:14 -0700 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Pumpkins in Period? At 8:02 PM -0700 9/19/00, I wrote: >The word "pompon," according to the OED, has nothing to do with >pumpkins or gourds. But glancing through Thomas Dawson (1597), I find him using "pompon" for some kind of vegetable (an alternative to melon or cucumber), so it looks as though Lady Eileen is probably right that one of its meanings is an alternate form of "pumpkin." The recipe, incidentally, does not give me confidence in Dawson. He is soaking seeds in sugar water mixed with rose water, then drying the seeds and planting them, in order to produce such melons, the like of which have never been seen. And if you mix musk into the sugar water ... . - -- David/Cariadoc http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:41:20 -0700 From: david friedman Subject: RE: SC - Pumpkins in Period? At 11:16 PM -0700 9/19/00, Susan Browning wrote: >Does anybody know of any recipes for pumkin (old world) in period? There are several recipes in the Miscellany that use gourds, and are from before Columbus. I don't remember any of them using gourds called "pumpkins" or any variant. - -- David/Cariadoc http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 08:22:58 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Pumpkins in Period? > I recall seeing pumpkins in pictures of paintings included in > the Art and Recipe cookbook that was recently discussed here. > olwen New World squashes and pumpkins appear in very late 16th Century paintings. Campi's The Fruit Seller (about 1580) displays two or three varieties which suggests that they were being marketed, at least in Italy. A number of Italian painters included them in still lifes dating from about 1570 to 1620. Bear Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 08:45:00 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Pumpkins in Period? > True. But as far as can be determined, I believe this list came to > conclusion that all gourds in period were varietals of the same plant, > only in different shapes and sizes... > > Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise I think it might be more correct to say most are members of the genus Lagenaria and many are varieties of Lagenaria siceraria (bottle gourds). The bitter gourd or balsam pear (Momordica charantia) was known and eaten in period and I don't believe it is a member of the family Cucurbitacaea. Bear Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:58:59 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Pumpkins in Period? lilinah at earthlink.net writes: << We had a good discussion of this back when I first learned of the cooking competition. >> Also remember that while bushel basket gourds do resemble the fruit of the American pumpkin, the basis for calling the New world fruit a pumpkin was not necessarily based on the appearance of the fruit. It most probably was based on the appearance of the plant which is similar to several plants of the gourd family. The 2 I have seen pictured in manuscripts are clearly NOT bushel basket gourds but are Italian edible gourds and birdhouse gourds respectively. while bushel basket gourds are a good candidate, I think it would be a shame to restrict the definition to that particular plant alone based on similar fruit appearance. Ras Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:50:31 -0700 From: david friedman Subject: RE: SC - Pumpkins in Period? At 8:22 AM -0500 9/20/00, Decker, Terry D. wrote: >New World squashes and pumpkins appear in very late 16th Century paintings. >Campi's The Fruit Seller (about 1580) displays two or three varieties which >suggests that they were being marketed, at least in Italy. A number of >Italian painters included them in still lifes dating from about 1570 to >1620. According to Whittaker (I think), what appears to be a field pumpkin is illustrated in 1560. Whitaker, Thomas W., "American Origin of the Cultivated Cucurbits," Annals of the Missouri Botanical Garden, 1947. I don't know where the illustration is, however, and don't have a copy of the article at hand. - -- David Friedman ddfr at best.com http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:47:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Jenne Heise Subject: RE: SC - Pumpkins in Period? > In any case, we don't know, or at least I don't, whether the early > variants of "pumpkin" referred to a gourd. It might have been > something else whose size and shape was sufficiently similar to what > we call a pumpkin for the name to have been transferred, such as some > kind of melon. I think it is a mix. The one Strabo talks about isn't a melon, as it dries with a hard rind and could be used as a bushel basket. The References to pompions at the wedding of Jadwiga and Jagiello, however, may well be a mistranlations of the word for melon, as Knab mentions it and Dembinska mentions melons... Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne at tulgey.browser.net Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:48:22 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Pumpkins and such... There are many varieties of period pumpkins (i.e., gourds) still available today: Italian Edible Gourds, Loofa Sponges, Bushel Basket Gourds and Birdhouse Gourds immediately come to mind. Of these, the bushel basket gourd comes the closest to looking like what we know as a 'pumpkin' today. Most period recipes using gourds are savory rather than sweet. So far as size is concerned, manuscript pictures showing bird house gourds appear to show them no different from today. Ras Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 14:16:15 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Pumpkins and such... > Everyone points ot htese tiny unripe green gourds as the period pompions, > but I still wonder about Strabo's bushel-basket size pompions. > -- > Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise There is a picture from the Tacuinum Sanitatis (14th Century) showing some large yellow-orange fruit (probably gourds) hanging from a lattice. Here's an interesting site with pictures: http://www.bloomingdaletel.com/~sandlady/ Here's some information on cultivation: http://www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~ohioline/hyg-fact/1000/1630.html And here are some basket gourds, being used as art: http://www.vdest.com/santafe/KivaFineArts/sf023712.html Bear Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:50:41 -0700 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: david friedman Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] squash recipes >I am looking for some sort of recipe for squash for a feast in a >couple of months. I have tried to look up different recipes but I >think I must lack the magic touch. > >Can any one out there give any ideas for a summer feast with >squash?? There will be beef and turkey served as the main meat >dishes. 1. Squash is a New World vegetable; while it is possible that there are period recipes for it, I don't know of any. Turkey is a New World animal; I believe there is good evidence that turkeys were being eaten in Europe before 1600, but I don't know if there are surviving recipes for them or not. 2. There are, however, old world gourds which are reasonably similar, and for which there are period recipes. You may be able to find the old world gourds (Lageneria sicereia (sp?)--the white flowered gourd) in a chinese grocery store, since they are still used in Chinese cooking. I think they are sometimes called "Opo" gourds. Alternatively you can do a period gourd recipe with out of period gourds--the period ones we have found are not all that different in taste from zucchini. 3. Here are some period gourd recipes, from the _Miscellany_. The part at the beginning is the original recipe, the rest is how we do it with comments. Gourd in Juice Platina p. 123 (Book 7) Cook a gourd in juice or in water with a few little onions and after it is cut up, pass it through a perforated spoon into a kettle in which there is rich juice, a little verjuice and saffron. Take it from the hearth when it has boiled a little. After it has been set aside and cooled a little, put in a little aged cheese ground up and softened with two egg yolks; or keep stirring it with a spoon so that lumps do not spoil it. After you have put it into saucers, sprinkle with spices. 2 3/4 lb zucchini squash=097 threads saffron 1/2-3/4 lb onions=095 oz cheddar cheese 1/2 c rich juice: canned beef or chicken broth=092 egg yolks verjuice: 4 T verjuice or 2 T wine vinegar=09spices (cinnamon, ginger or nutmeg) Peel squash, remove seeds, slice; coarsely chop onions. Cook 10 minutes in water to cover. Drain and mash. Mix broth, vinegar, and saffron and add mashed squash. Heat, then add egg yolks and cheese. Sprinkle with one of the spices: cinnamon was considered best. We have also made this using gourds from a Chinese grocery store which we believe were bottle gourds (Lagenaria siceraria), our best guess at the gourd used in period; see the discussion at p. 152-153 below. The recipe we worked out is: Double the quantity of onions and beef broth, keeping the other proportions as in version with squash. Peel the gourd, boil it with whole small onions for an hour, then discard the onions (which seems to be what the original recipe implies). Slice gourd, mash through strainer (or use a potato ricer). Add beef broth and verjuice, heat 15 minutes on low, let cool 10 minutes, add grated cheese and egg yolks. Sprinkle with cinnamon and serve. Fried Gourd Platina p. 119 (Book 7) Scrape off the skin from the gourd and cut it sideways in thin slices. When it is boiled once transfer it from the pot onto the board and leave it there till it has dried out a little. Then roll it in salt and good white flour and fry it in oil; when it is done and put on a platter, pour a garlic sauce over it, with fennel blossoms and breadcrumbs so dissolved in verjuice that it looks thin rather than thick. It would not be amiss to pass this sauce through a strainer. There are those, too, who use only verjuice and fennel bloom. If you like saffron, add saffron. 1 1/8 lbs gourd (see p. 152-153)=091 c flour 1 t salt=09enough olive oil to fry: ~1/4" in pan Peel gourd and slice very thin, boil in water 7 minutes, spread out and let dry for 40 minutes. Mix flour and salt, dip gourd in it, and fry for ~4 minutes per batch in hot olive oil. See under sauces for Platina's garlic sauce. Torta from Gourds Platina p. 136 (book 8) Grind up gourds that have been well cleaned as you are accustomed to do with cheese. Then let them boil a little, either in rich juice or in milk. When they are half-cooked and have been passed through a strainer into a bowl, add as much cheese as I said before [a pound and a half]. Take half a pound of belly or fat udder boiled and cut up or, instead of this, if you wish, take the same amount of either butter or liquamen, add half a pound of sugar, a little ginger, some cinnamon, six eggs, two ladles of milk, a little saffron, and blend thoroughly. Put this preparation in a greased pan or in a pastry shell and cook it over a slow fire. There are those who add strips of leaves, which they call lagana, instead of the upper crust. When it is cooked and set on a plate, sprinkle it with sugar and rosewater. 1/2 lb gourd (after peeling) (see p. 152-153)=091/8 t ground ginger =096 threads saffron 1/2 c milk to cook in=091/2 t cinnamon=09double 9" pastry shell 8 oz cheddar cheese=091 egg=092 T sugar sprinkled on top 2 oz butter=091/2 c milk=091 T rosewater 1/4 c sugar Grind gourd finely with a grater and boil in milk for six minutes on low heat while being stirred; drain in strainer and throw away liquid, then force squash through strainer. Grate or cut up cheese; mix with gourd, butter, sugar, egg, milk, ginger, and cinnamon. Put in pie shell and cover with top crust. Bake in 350=B0 oven for 65 minutes; at this point it is bubbly and needs to set for a while. Sprinkle top with sugar and rosewater. Makes one 9 inch pie. -- David/Cariadoc http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] squash recipes Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:08:49 -0500 > 1. Squash is a New World vegetable; while it is possible that there > are period recipes for it, I don't know of any. While I know of no recipes for squash, squash appears in Vincenzo Campi's The Fruit Seller (1580) suggesting that squash was commonly for sale around Milan in the late 16th Century. It may be that no specific recipes for squash exist, because they served as a replacement for gourds. > 2. There are, however, old world gourds which are reasonably similar, > and for which there are period recipes. You may be able to find the > old world gourds (Lageneria sicereia (sp?)--the white flowered gourd) > in a chinese grocery store, since they are still used in Chinese > cooking. I think they are sometimes called "Opo" gourds. > -- > David/Cariadoc Lagenaria siceraria (I checked the quick ref to make sure, since I have a propensity for mis-remembering taxonomic names). They also appear as bottle or calabash gourds. The latter occasionally get confused with the fruit of the calabash tree. Bear From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] squash recipes Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:13:54 -0500 Gourds have round stems and the stems in the picture are ribbed (a feature found in the Cucurbita and a point used in determining species). The squash in the painting closely resemble the Japanese pumpkin. Other sources have identified them as squash, so I'm comfortable with the identification. There is a second rather large pumpkin shaped fruit in the picture, but the stem is hidden under a plate placed upon it, so it may be either a pumpkin or a basket gourd. Still Life with Fruit, which I believe is a Carravagio from roughly the same period has a more gourd-like fruit which can be identified as a squash. Bear > How do you know it is squash? The picture of an edible gourd in _The > Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti_, which is from before Columbus, > looks rather like a modern squash. Different varieties of C. Pepo > vary a lot, and I presume the same would be true for the old world > gourds. > -- > David/Cariadoc From: Devra at aol.com Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 23:14:10 EDT To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks digest, Vol 1 #59 - Squash Recipe (finally) >From Pleyn Delit, referenced to Forme of Curye Take young gowrds; pare hem and kerve hem on peeys; cast hem in gode broth, and do ther-to a gode party of Oynons mynced. Take Pork soden; grynd it and alye it her-with and with zolkes of ayren. Do ther-to saffron and salt, and messe it forth with powder douce. 'Gourds' may mean gourds, squash, pumpkin, or even cucumbers. In this case, squash seems an appropriate choice, but pumpkin is perfectly feasible. SQUASH IN BROTH 2 lb squash or pumpkin, peeled, seeded, and cut into chunks (I used yellow squash, since I detest zuccini) 3-4 onions, minced 3 C meat broth (approx) 1/2--1 C ground, cooked pork 2 egg yolks (or 1 whole egg), beaten pinch saffron or turmeric salt to taste 1/8 t each: cinnamon & ginger 1 t sugar Boil the squash in the broth with the onions. Stir in ground pork & seasonings when almost done. Take off the fire and beat in egg or egg yolks just before serving. A variation offered is that you can sprinkle the saffron threads over the squash as a decorative touch...she quotes the Menagier that this is called "fringed with saffron". I've cooked this for mundane friends. It's a little different, but not "weird". Devra the Baker Devra Langsam www.poisonpenpress.com From: "Terry Decker" To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Marrow (Long) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:06:23 -0500 > Yes, the marrow in question should without doubt > have been that of bone marrow for the recipes > that were under discussion. Several people had > responded on the list already that it was bone > marrow, prior to my posting. > In my posting, I was just answering the second > part of the query regarding what a vegetable > marrow is vis a vis a zuchini in the modern world. > Yes, of course, modern zucchini or vegetable marrows > post WWII are new world squashes of the same > family as pumpkins. > > As to when they were first used in the UK, and their > nomenclature in the OED, I did some further checking. > Gillian Riley uses the terms "Marrows (zucchini)" > in her translation of Giacomo Castelvetro's manuscript > from the early 17th century. (He died in 1616, so the > mss. dates from between 1614-1616.). Not knowing what > terms were used in the original Italian text, it's hard to > say whether Riley used the modern term "marrow" for zucchini > or used "marrow and "zucchini" when the original term was > say courgettes. If in fact, Castelvetro was talking about > growing zucchini or marrow (cucurbita pepo) then this > would put them into gardens and use shortly after the > 1600 cutoff. Riley on page 160 indicates that Castelvetro > meant the lagenaria family in the entry on "pumpkins." > If this applies also to the entry on "marrows" on page > 96, then why use the terms "marrows" and "zucchini" when > the plant being discussed was an old world gourd? > See The Fruit, Herbs and Vegetables of Italy for this problem. "Courgette" is used to describe both gourds and squashes. The same problem occurs in French. Prior to 1492, it is almost certain that gourds are being referenced and by 1700 the common usage is for squash, if I understand the usage correctly. New World squashes were being grown and sold in Italy by the latter half of the 16th Century. These are identifiable in various paintings from the ribbed stalk. Gourds and melons have unribbed stalks. Gillian Riley could correctly use either gourds or squashes, but unless there are other indicators in Castelvetro's work, it may not be possible to determine precisely which he meant. Squashes appear to have supplanted gourds in the cooking with little change in the immediate recipes. Renaissance Recipes is not particularly scholarly and does not provide translation information suggesting that the translations were not done by a classicist with an eye to the precision of the language. > > C. Anne Wilson in Food and Drink in Britain > also says "Cucumbers, marrows, garden > asparagus and cardoons (a form of globe artichoke) may have > been grown in Britain's villa gardens, but they were too > tender to survive the end of the Roman occupation. (326) > On page 327, she says "Apicius has several recipes for > vegetable marrows, boiled, fried or mashed..." > This would indicate to me that the term "marrow" and > in the case of Wilson "vegetable marrow " is also > being used for the old world gourd used in Roman recipes. > And indeed, the Flower and Rosenbaum edition of Apicius under > the title The Roman Cookery Book (originally published > in England in 1958) uses the term "Marrow" for the Latin > "Cucurbitas" on pp.74-75. This leads one to conclude that > the same words indicate not one but two, (possibly even three plants > if one includes the Marrow kale as given below) > totally different plants. Below, the OED gives the definition of marrow as "A kind of gourd, the fruit of Cucurbita ovifera, used as a table vegetable." The OED is saying gourd, marrow, and squash are synonyms. Scientifically, geographically (origin) and temporally, they are not. Wilson and Flower and Rosenbaum are being imprecise by not translating to taxonomic terms. "Cucurbita ovifera" is more correctly Cucurbita pepo var. ovifera. It refers specifically to a group of New World ornamentals which Apicius would never have seen. The Latin word "curcubita" means "gourd." In Apicius' time it would have referred to members of genus Langenaria or the bottle gourds. IIRC, the Tacuinum Sanitatis shows "cucurbita" which are specifically Langenaria. The taxonomic Cucurbita does not equate to the Latin "cucurbita." Basic taxonomy was established between the 16th and 18th Centuries and while taxonomy uses Greek and Latin names, they follow the conventions established by the taxonomists rather than the conventions of the language. In relation to gourds, pumpkins, squashes, etc., the family is the gourd family or Cucurbitaceae, while the genus for New World squashes and pumpkins is Cucurbita. > > Even the OED 2nd online which I have access to gives an > 2 odd entries as follows: > > "marrow-stemmed kale. 1598 Sylvester Du Bartas > ii. i. i. Eden 537 Their *marrow-boyling loves." Brassica oleracea var. medulla (IIRC). This particular cabbage has a stalk with a soft pith which is removed and cooked, I hear stir fry is nice. Cabbage is easily modifiable and I haven't tried to chase down the age of this varietal. I don't recall any early references so it may be a variety developed in the 16th Century. > > Under marrow one finds as Bear quoted the 1816 date & quote: > " vegetable marrow: > a. A kind of gourd, the fruit of Cucurbita ovifera, > used as a table vegetable. > 1816 J. Sabine in Trans. Hort. Soc. (1822) II. 255 > (title of paper) A Description and Account of the Cultivation of a > Variety of Gourd called Vegetable Marrow." > > So is OED talking about a "gourd" or a "squash"? > If it's just a squash, why the reference to gourd at all? > Or does OED intermingle squash with gourd and gourd with squash? Curcubitacea or gourd family. All members can be referred to as gourds or cucurbits, but the usage is confusing scientifically. Genus and species are more precise. Squash specifically refers to members of genus Cucurbita. The word derives from the Narragansett "askutasquash." > > The Middle English Dictionary also > gives this as one of the definitions for "marrow" > (a) The kernel or meat of a nut, seed, grain, or fruit; > the soft inner part of bread contained by the crust, crumb; > ~ of whete, heart of wheat, fine flour; (b) the heart > of a tree; also, tender growing shoots of a tree. The quotes > refer mostly to marrow of wheat. > > (I did check the Florilegium entries on marrow and note that > Bear brought up this nomenclature question back in 1998.) Yes, and I've spent a lot of time looking at the issue > > Having not seen the original recipes being discussed, > is it beyond the realm of possibility that the mention of > "marrow" in pre-1600 recipes might have been "marrow kale", > the old world gourd being called a marrow or more likely > "bone marrow"? > If it is a translated recipe and an English author ...????? > > Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis And just to throw a monkey wrench in the works about the Cucurbita, there is a botanical argument that at least some of the Cucurbita may have originated in Asia. Since it appears to be tied in with some of the diffusionist arguments I take it with a grain of salt. As far as I can tell, there is still no evidence that the Cucurbita were known in Europe before Columbus. Bear > > Terry Decker wrote:> > > The problem is genus Cucurbita is of New World origin. The > Cucurbita > > replaced the Langenaria, or bottle gourds, on European > tables beginning in > > the 16th Century.> > > The OED places the first use of marrow as referring to a > cucurbit in 1816. > > Thus pre-17th Century cooking references to marrow are > almost certainly > > referring to bone marrow.> Bear > > > > >Yes, British vegetable marrows are part of the > > >marrow/zuchini group of Summer squashes or > > >cucurbita pepo. Alan Davidson notes that the > > >British have for some time taken to growing them > > >to extreme sizes and dimensions for contests and > > >exhibitions.Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway > > > > > >Linda Peterson wrote: > > >> We're discussing marrow and it's use in puddings and > rissoles. I think > > >> it's refering to bone marrow, but someone suggests > squash. Can anyone > > >> expound on which is most likely and if the brittish > vegetable marrow is > > >> really what we think of here as an overgrown zuchinni? Mirhaxa From: "Hrolf Douglasson" To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] your assistance needed/gourd drying Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 23:54:31 -0000 From: CHERYL A ROBERTSON > In our efforts to do a great garden we grew the best crop of gourds I've ever seen (several bushels full!!!) > > Now I would like to know if anyone knows how to dry these gourds I've tried the internet (no luck). I've asked relatives that say, "my grandmother used to do that but don't know how she did it" (thanks much!!!!). > > Mst. Cecilia Depending on type try hanging them in a stocking in a warm dry airy type place. Tie the stocking between each gourd to prevent them touching. this works for the hard skin type vara Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:35:07 -0800 From: Wolfe Evernham To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks digest, Vol 1 #1132 - 15 msgs > My newest apprentice, Wolfe von Pater, won honorable > mention for her entry in the Best Use of Winter > Vegetables contest also at Altavia Yule. She made > pumpkin soup from King's Taste, which she served in a > pumpkin shell soup tureen. > Huette The recipe for the "Squash in Potages" modified to be purely vegitarian is as follows. ( I did the modification because our Baroness doesn't do meat or even much dairy.) Bake 2 smallish pumpkins, 1 delicata squash and 1 golden acorn squash until fairly tender. Then peal and chunk all 3 types, reserving about a third. Dump the chunks into your trusty crock pot, add about 2 tablespoons fresh chopped ginger. Also add 3 tablespoons brown sugar, 1 teaspoon each cinnamon, nutmeg and course salt. Cover to the top of your crock pot with bottled water. Cook overnight or about 10 hours. Finally puree the contents for your stock. Add the remaining chunks about an hour or two before your ready to serve. As for the pumpkin tureen, cut open the pumpkin and scoop out the guts, scraping the sides until smooth. Now I poured boiling salt water into mine and put the top back on. I left it for about 30 minutes. I think I should have done a second set of boiling water as the fresh uncooked pumpkin flavor leached into my soup. Which I am told was appealing but unexpected. Wolfe From: "Terry Decker" To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period squash Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 06:00:36 -0600 >How can you tell if they are squash or melons? And if not melons, is >there a way of telling whether they are c. pepo or c. moschata, which >most of what we call squash are, or c. lageneria (sp?), white >flowered gourd, which is old world, hence more likely to be in use in >Europe that early? >-- >David/Cariadoc Ribbed stems. This is one of the taxonomic features of genus Cucurbita. IIRC, the number of ribs (5 or 7) provides a major division in the genus. Identifying the species from a painting is more difficult and may be impossible, but I believe the Pre-Columbian distribution of the various species makes C. pepo the probable choice. Gourds, melons, cucumbers, etc. have round, unribbed stems. Lagenaria is a genus rather than a species, so the gourds would be named L. siceraria. Bear From: "Mercy Neumark" To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 12:34:35 -0800 Subject: [Sca-cooks] re: period squash >I bought some "flying saucer" squash at the local farmers market last >summer. They were about 6" - 8" across. This didn't seem too big, as the >seeds had not matured inside. But they were bitter, bitter, bitter. >Inedible. Nasty. Awful. I will try again this summer, and maybe save the >seeds. You're better off picking up the squash in the autumn (start in September, depending on your area) when they are in season (I believe squashes are an autumn harvest NOT a summer). That's probably why it was bitter in taste (and the seeds not fully mature). Most squash are best at this time. I know right now in Southern California the squash (many varieties) are all very tasty now and plentiful! Side note on naming veggies: I posted awhile back www.territorialseed.com website...you can check out their online catalog (I believe it is up) and look over the varieties they sell. You might be able to find the exactname of the veggies you are looking for...or at least one that might be close. --Farmer Arte of the green thumb Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 15:57:06 -0600 (CST) From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] re: period squash On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, Mercy Neumark wrote: > You're better off picking up the squash in the autumn (start in September, > depending on your area) when they are in season (I believe squashes are an > autumn harvest NOT a summer). That's probably whey it was bitter in taste > (and the seeds not fully mature). Most squash are best at this time. I > know right now in Southern California the squash (many varieties) are all > very tasty now and plentiful! Patty-pan squash is a summer squash, though, and if it's too green when it's picked it can be bitter. IIRC, a ripe patty-pan is more of a very pale green rather than white, although there might be white varieties that I haven't met yet. When ripe you should be able to slice it and eat it raw like a yellow summer squash, which it does vaguely taste like. I like it gently fried with a touch of butter, myself. Winter squashes, 'tis true, are ready much later in the season and last longer after being picked. Margaret, who has a black thumb but is very fond of squash Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:52:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Subject: [Sca-cooks] illustrations of lagenaria gourds To: Hm.. this looks very interesting: http://www.americangourdsociety.org/FAQ/types/chart.html -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Mon 16 Feb 2004 19:53:33 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] new/old world gourd To: "Cooks within the SCA" Zucchini is also a New World squash. The pumpkin Platina was referring To is likely a basket gourd, Lagenaria siceraria. New World squash came into use in the early 16th Century. The ones I've seen in 16th Century illustrations ar pumpkin-like or watermelon-like. Acorn squash, Japanese squash or a small sugar pumpkin are closer to what is shown than zucchini or butternut squash. Bear > I just had this horrible image. A pie cooked with something like avegetable > marrow cooked with pumpkin pie spices. Or maybe not so horrible. I like > zucchini bread. > > Berelinde Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:33:49 -0600 From: "Terry Decke" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Winter Squash To: "Cooks within the SCA" > We may have been through thisbefore--I'm not sure--but how can you > tell they are New World (presumably C. Pepo) rather than Lagenaria? > Do the paintings show the color of the blossoms? The Curcubits (New World Squashes) have heavy ridged stems (five or seven ribs, IIRC), while he gourds and the melons have smoother, almost round stems. The botanical drawings in various herbals and some of the highly detailed Renaissance paintings show the difference. It might also be possible to identify them by flower or leaf, but it's Not my area of expertise and I tend to find them in paintings which don't show those. I obviously need to spend more time digging through herbals. > Also, while I agree that Lagenaria is a likely guess for the medieval > "pumpkin," do we know that it ismore than a guess? _The Four Seasons > of the House of Cerruti_ and related books do have pictures. > -- > David/Cariadoc I don't think there is any definitive proof. Linguistic evidence and artistic evidence suggest the transference, but I haven't encountered a full reasoned exposition. Bear Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:00:10 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Winter Squash To: "Cooks within the SCA" The green skinned pumpkins you are describing are often called Japanese pumpkins (because several new varieties have been produced in Japan). They are New World squashes related to the acorn squash. Flesh color tends to be yellow to orange, but some varietals have a light green flesh. They appear in some late period paintings, most notably Campi's "The Fruit Seller." The painting is used as an illustration in a fairly recent edition of Elizabeth David's work on Italian cooking and they are identified as marrows in the caption of a detail illustration. I suspect the term "marrow" is being generalized in this case as the shape is wrong for Cucurbita ovifera. If you can't find these big green squashes, I would suggest substituting acorn squash. Bear > The orangy pumpkin squash is a new world squash, but in many parts of the > world they have a similar type squash with a greenish skin that is also > called pumpkin. Some types are a richer colour of orange inside and a much > richer flavor. You can usually find these types of squashes in a latino > store or international market, either whole or cut into pieces as they can > get to be quite large. There is one or two types with a slightly different > skin colour that is more yellow inside and less flavorful than even our > orange pumpkin. Probably Bear will give a rundown on all the name and place > facts. > Olwen Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:30:00 -0500 From: Barbara Benson Subject: [Sca-cooks] Period Gourds To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org We have in the past discussed what the actual period gourds that would have been used in the recipes for gourds and their lack of availability. I am uncertain whether the conclusion was reached on this list or elsewhere - but I believe that the gourd that would have been used is commonly known as the Chinese Bottle Gourd. Many have lamented it's lack of availability here in the US, so I thought I would post my finding here. Apparently it is relatively easy to grow! I found a source for seeds in my garden planning and if anyone else might desire to grow them here is the link: http://www.evergreenseeds.com/evergreenseeds/calgouropo.html Serena da Riva Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:52:15 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Gourds To: "Barbara Benson" , "Cooks within the SCA" > We have in the past discussed what the actual period gourds that would > have been used in the recipies for gourds and their lack of availablity. > > I am uncertain whether the conclusion was reached on this list or > elsewhere - but I believe that the gourd that would have been used is > commonly known as the Chinese Bottle Gourd. > Serena da Riva Rather than the Chinese Bottle Gourd, I would suggest the Cucuzzi or White Flower Gourd. http://onaleeseeds.scifstore.com/module/store/viewentry/8138/ The shapes of gourds I have seen pictured in period sources are dippers, cylindricals, and basket (bushel). The following site provides some pictures (not as good as I would like, but useable). http://www.gourdfarmer.com/ For a little artistic look at some of the gourds, try this site discussing the botanical bounty of Caravagio. The illustrations are not all by Caravagio, but the painters are identified in the text. http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/caravaggio/caravaggio_l.html A little more help identifying gourds and squashes: http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubcd/B1180.htm Bear Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:22:47 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Gourds To: Cooks within the SCA And there's this presentation too from the same site-- Erotic Use of Lagenaria in Renaissance Art http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/newCrops.html#projects Johnnae Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:18:18 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pumpkin To: "Cooks within the SCA" If you are working from Apicius, the pumpkin will actually be a bottle gourd, or possibly, a melon (pepo in Latin, now used as the genus name for squashes) similar to a honeydew. The New World squash we call pumpkin gets to Europe about 1000 plus years after the recipes were first collected. Modern cooks tend to use squash rather than trying to locate gourds. If you choose to use New World pumpkin a small variety around two pounds is probably close to those common in the 16th Century. Bear > I am working on a feast menu for January based mostly on Apicius. > There are several recipes calling for Pumpkin - > > Just what sort of pumpkin should I be looking for? Big Orange > Jack-o-lantern just seems wrong. Isn’t it a new world thing? > > Vitha Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:12:47 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pumpkins To: Cooks within the SCA Speaking of pumpkins, Martha Stewart featured 300 varieties of pumpkins and squash today on her show. They came from: The Great Pumpkin Patch The Great Pumpkin Patch is located two miles south and 1/2 mile west of the village of Arthur (pop. 2200). The 63-acre pumpkin patch is in the middle of the largest Amish settlement in Illinois. The village of Arthur and the neighboring towns offer a variety of shops, dining and hotels. Phone: 217-543-2394 For maps and directions, go to www.thegreatpumpkinpatch.biz They are also the feature article beginning on page 128 in the October 2005 issue of Martha Stewart Living. They say "If you are interested in ordering seeds, please visit www.revolutionseeds.com." This farm is located about 15 miles miles west of where I grew up in central Illinois by the way. Johnnae Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:49:36 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pumpkin To: "Cooks within the SCA" >> I am working on a feast menu for January based mostly on Apicius. >> There are several recipes calling for Pumpkin - >> >> Just what sort of pumpkin should I be looking for? Big Orange >> Jack-o-lantern just seems wrong. Isnt' it a new world thing? > > All of our standard pumpkins and squashes are New World. There are old > world vegetables that look rather like some squashes. At least some of > them are Lagenaria Siceria (sp?), the white flowered gourd, which is still > used in modern Chinese cooking and I think perhaps in Italian. > > What translation of Apicius are you using? The fact that it translates the > relevant word as "pumpkin" is at least some evidence that it may be an > unreliable one. I gather that Vehling is about the least reliable > of the translations, Flowers and Rosenbaum the best. > -- > David/Cariadoc Vehling translates Apicius Book III (the Gardener) Chapter IV as being "Pumpkins, Squashes." Flower and Rosenbaum translate the same section as "Marrow." The Latin text is "Cucurbitas." Vehling appears to be using the Linnean taxonomy to translate the word, while Flower and Rosenbaum are using a term in English usage specifically for some New World squashes. Neither of these is a correct translation given the history of the genera Curcubita and Lagenaria. I would suggest that the Mary Ella Milham translation might be the best for precisely (as possible) determining the translation from the Latin. According to my notes, in Latin "cucurbita" can be generally used to describe gourds, cucumbers and melons, in the specific it tends to refer to gourds, "cucumis" to cucumbers, and "pepon" to melons. The precise usage may vary according to the source. Looking at the recipes, they appear to be for some variety of Lagenaria siceraria AKA bottle gourd, calabash, birdhouse gourd, white flowered gourd, basket gourd, etc. Bear Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:17:13 -0500 From: "margaret" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pumpkins? To: "Cooks within the SCA" Opo (also referred to a a long calabash) is definitely a bottle gourd. It may also appear in Italian markets as cucuzza. Bottle gourds do vary widely in size, shape and color but are one species. Bear > Our (Betty and mine) current guess is the White Flowered Gourd, Laganaria > Sicreia (sp?). There is a gourd called "Opo" available in Chinese grocery > stores which we think is probably Laganaria, but we aren't sure. > > The opo we have cooked tasted rather like zuccini. But most of our > familiar gourds and pumpkins are a single species--C. Pepo--so it may well > be that different varieties of Laganaria differ just as they do. > -- > David/Cariadoc Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:06:04 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The pumpkin/gourd debate (again) from theapothecary's workshop To: "Cooks within the SCA" All members of genus Cucurbita are of North American origin, including those found in Asia and Africa. Gourds and melons are of Old World origin. A quick way to tell the difference is to look at the stem. Cucurbita have deeply ribbed stems, the gourds and melons have round, relatively smooth, lightly veined stems. Bear Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 08:53:14 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The pumpkin/gourd debate (again) from theapothecary'sworkshop To: , "Cooks within the SCA" >> All members of genus Cucurbita are of North American origin, including >> those found in Asia and Africa. Gourds and melons are of Old World origin. >> A quick way to tell the difference is to look at the stem. Cucurbita have >> deeply ribbed stems, the gourds and melons have round, relatively >> smooth, lightly veined stems. > > Now, I'm confused. Cucumbers are genus Cucurbita, but their presence in > Europe pre-dates any significant contact between Old and New Worlds. Do > we have an explanation for that? I didn't find one anywhere. > -- > -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Cucumbers are genus Cucumis, Squashes, gourds, melons, watermelons, cucumbers and luffas are all members of the family Cucurbitaceae. Bear Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:19:47 -0500 From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise Subject: [Sca-cooks] something about Gourds To: Cooks within the SCA , MedievalGardening at yahoogroups.com We talked about gourds at one point, and I think it was on one of these lists I said that I would try to get the stuff about them from the 9th century text. Here it is: Gourds, from Walafrid Strabo's _Hortulus_ The gourd too aspires to grow high from a humble beginning... ... Even so my gourd, rising on brittle stems, Welcomes the props that are put there for it, hugging the alder in the grip of its curly tentacles. It's so determined Not to be wrenched away by even the wildest storm That it thrusts out a cable at every joint and, each Extending two strands, siezes support on this side and that. It reminds me too of girls spinning, when they draw The soft heaps of wool to their spindles, and in great twists Measure off the endless thread into trim balls-- Just so The wandering thongs of my gourd twist and cling; quick To wrap their coils round the smooth sticks set as ladders for them They learn to use borrowed strength and, with a swimmer's thrust, Climb the steep rooms of the covered cloister. Oh, who now Can praise as he ought the fruits that hang from its branches Everywhere? They are as perfectly formed from every angle As a piece of wood that is turned and shaved on a lathe. They hang on a slender stalk and swell from a long, thin neck Into huge bodies, their great mass broadening at the flanks. They are all belly, all pauch. Inside That cavernous prison are nourished, each in its place, the many Seeds that promise another harvest as good as this one. At the approach of tardy autumn, while yet they are tender And before the hidden moisture that is sealed inside them dries To leave but the withered shells, we often see the fruit Handed round among the good things of the dinner-table and soaking up the rich fat in a piping-dish; For often these juicy slices, served as dessert, Delight the palate. But if you let the gourd stay Enjoying the summer sun on its parent tree and only Set your blade to it late in the year, then after scooping The flesh from its ponderous belly and shaving the sides On a nimble lathe, you can put it to practical use as a vessel. A pint this mighty paunch will sometimes hold, sometimes Half a gallon or more; and if you seal your jar With gummy pitch it will keep wine good for many a day. Translated by Raef Payne. (Pittsurgh, PA: Hunt Botanical Library, 1966) -- -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:37:52 -0400 From: Robin Carroll-Mann Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Butternut squash? To: Cooks within the SCA Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise wrote: >> Are butternut squash period? When I see recipes for squash tart, >> are we talking about summer squash or winter squash? > > Neither, actually, in most cases: the period 'squash' or 'gourd' is > the white-flowered lagenaria gourd... (bottle gourds) from africa I have bought this variety of gourd from local Asian grocery stores. The taste is rather like summer squash, though the texture is firmer. I think summer squash would be a reasonable substitute (peel skin and remove seeds). -- Brighid ni Chiarain Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 20:41:10 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Butternut squash? To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Are butternut squash period? When I see recipes for squash tart, > are we talking about summer squash or winter squash? > > Grace The modern butternut squash is a hybrid developed by Antoine-Auguste Parmentier in the 18th Century, IIRC. Parmentier is also the fellow who gave you the modern commercial strawberry (a cross between Chilean and Virginia strawberries) and got France into potatoes as a food crop. A little postscript, prior to 1492, squash refers to bottle gourds. After 1492, squash can be interpreted as bottle gourds or New World squash. Based on Leonard Fuchs's Herbal of 1543, New World squash were fairly widely spread around the Mediterranean by mid-century and they appear in a number of Italian paintings before the end of the century. Bear Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:28:41 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cookbook - need some help To: "Cooks within the SCA" New World squashes appear in Leonard Fuch's herbal of 1541. They were apparently in use in Europe for some time before that. There is no evidence for genus Cucurbita being known in the Old World before Columbus. Cucumis and Citrullus (cucumbers and melons, which are a little mixed in taxonomy) are both Old World. The Langenaria, the Old World bottle gourds which are the Medieval squashes and pumpkins, are found in both the New and Old Worlds. Bear <<< That goes into more detail on the origins of the various species in the Gourd family. Yet it does not get into when the New World Gourds were introduced into Europe. Euriol >>> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:49:00 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] squashes/pumpkins To: "Cooks within the SCA" They are a variety of bottle gourd (Langenaria siceraria). There are a wide range of sizes, and colors in both the gourds and the squashes, so they often resemble one another. Since the New World squashes don't show up in Europe until after Columbus, if the source predates 1500, you can safely assume that it's a gourd. After 1600, you can probably assume it's a squash. The 16th Century is the real headache, because there is no linguistic differentiation between the gourds and the squashes. Pictorally, look at the stem. Cucurbita have deeply ribbed stellate stems. Langenaria have relatively smooth round stems (if you feel them they have a slightly rough texure with several very fine and almost unoticeable ribs). Bear <<< I've wondered about the pumpkin/squash/gourd/marrow thing, too. In the Viennese codex "Tacunium Sanitatis," a 13th?-14th? century health manual, there is an illustration of people harvesting what the translator calls "pumpkins." The pumpkins look like hubbard squashes. The particular translation I have access to is called "The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti," and I believe does not include the entire codex. Any nutritional anthropologists out there? Talana >>> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:35:04 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] squashes/pumpkins Fuchs To: "Cooks within the SCA" >> New World squashes appear in Leonard Fuch's herbal of 1541.Do you >> mean the chapter "Von K?rbs" in Fuchs's New Kre?terbuch 1543? > > http://imgbase-scd-ulp.u-strasbg.fr/displayimage.php?album=24&pos=363 > > The Latin herbal used to be online as well at Koblenz Library but > it seems to be no longer there. > > E. I tend to work with a webbed version of the plates from the 1545 edition at http://www.med.yale.edu/library/historical/fuchs/ The first reference I have to publication lists 1541, but the 1542 and 1543 editions seem to be more common. Pages 209-211 list Cucurbita major, Cucurbita minor and Cucurbita oblonga. These are all gourds. Pages 401-406 list Cucumis sativus vulgaris, Cucumis turkicus, Cucumer marinus, Cucumer citrullus, Pepones and Cucumer sylvestris. Cucumis sativus vulgaris is the common cucumber. Cucumis turkicus and Cucumer marinus show the deeper ribbing on some of the stems that suggest they are actually New World squashes. The naming conventions suggest that Cucumer citrullus and Pepones are melons. Cucumer sylvestris appears to be related to the cucumber and I wonder if it may not be Ecuballium elaterium (squirting cucumber). Relating a New World squash to Turkey would be consistent with the nomenclature relating maize to Turkey and capsicum peppers to India. Bear Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 13:06:14 -0400 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Preserving pumpkin To: "Cooks within the SCA" On 7/19/08, Jennifer Carlson wrote: <<< Stefan asked how to preserve pumpkin. A traditional method is to cut the thing up, thread the pieces on string, and hang to dry. >>> A 16th c. Spanish agricultural manual by Gabriel Alonso de Herrera says that gourds can be preserved by slicing them and drying them in the sun. -- Brighid ni Chiarain Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 09:28:32 -0700 From: David Friedman To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Is Zuccnini Marrow? <<< So you could use zucchini in any medieval recipe that calls for young gourd. But zucchini is much wetter than white flower gourd, so you may have to adjust the cooking time and the amount of liquid in the recipe. >>> A lot of different varieties of our modern squash are all the same species-C. Pepo-and the same seems to be true of C. Lagenaria (white-flowered gourd aka ... ). _Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti_, which is an illustrated text of the _Tacinum Sanitatis_, shows period edible gourds which don't look all that much like the Opo we've bought. I found a page online that shows a whole lot of varieties of what they describe as "Calabash Gourd (OPO Gourd, Bottle Gourd)," very different looking: http://www.evergreenseeds.com/calgouropo.html So although the opo gourds in the local grocery stores may be the best guess we have at period gourds, I don't think one can be sure that they represent the same variety, or the same detailed characteristics, as the gourds in period cookbooks. -- David/Cariadoc Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 13:31:17 -0700 From: K C Francis To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Is Zuccnini Marrow? I have grown Zucchetta Rampicante and this year I have Zucchetta Trombolina. They are a climbing summer squash that produces a long skinny, pale green fruit. The seeds are only in the bulbish end. They cook up like zucchini, but do NOT get mushy. Mild flavor, some say artichoke like. The picture shows a VERY large one. I harvest them at about 10-12 inches, then chop and saute them. Check out: http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/udine/90-01.html for pictures of Lagenaria siceraria (Molina) Standley var. longissima, Cucuzzi, bottle gourd, which I have also grown, but I prefer the zucchetta for my own table. Katira al-Maghrebiyya From: johnnae at mac.com: <<< Zucchini, as grown in the USA today, are summer squash and would have come to the Old World after 1492. What was already in the Old World was "The white-flowering /zucca rampicante/ (vining gourd) or /zucca a tromba/ (trumpet gourd) is an Old World cucurbit (/Lagenaria siceraria/) that has been grown in the Mediterranean region since ancient times. The edible baby gourds, shown here, were known as /zucchette/ or /zucchini/ in Italian and were the breeding model for the New World squash grown today under the name of zucchini." The squash bore a resemblance to other cucurbits known to the Romans, although they belonged to other plant species. It received the name of /calabash/ and a false identity as /zucco/ from Syria. From this comes its present-day name, zucchini. See Maynard, David and Donald N. Maynard. "Squash and Gourds." _Encyclopedia of Food and Culture_. >>> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:09:24 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Squash in Scappi's Opera To start, Mistress Helewyse has a paper that details new world vegetables in 16th century Italian cookery and cookbooks. A time for change: new world foods in old world menus Taught at Pennsic 35 by Mistress Helewyse de Birkestad, The paper is online on her website under classes. http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/#Classes (BTW, Mistress Helewyse is cooking an Italian Feast tomorrow. Menu is posted here- http://www.catteden.com/pouncefeast&food.html ) Another way to look at the question of squashes and gourds is through art. Through the years we've played the 'id that fruit or vegie game in this painting' a number of times and I've tried to save those posts. Here are some sites we've uncovered that provide images of squashes or gourds. http://www.agriculture.purdue.edu/agricultures/past/fall2008/Features/Feature%205.html http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/caravaggio/caravaggio_l.html Early Evidence for the Culinary Use of Squash Flowers in Italy http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:LfO8qEW9hm0J:www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/squashflowers.pdf+Jules+Janick+purdue+squash&hl=en&gl=us [this is the site with this fun paper Erotic Use of Lagenaria in Renaissance Art To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Squash in Scappi's Opera <<< Early Evidence for the Culinary Use of Squash Flowers in Italy http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:LfO8qEW9hm0J:www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/squashflowers.pdf+Jules+Janick+purdue+squash&hl=en&gl=us >>> As far as I can see, the buds are closed, so you cannot see the color of the flowers--white or yellow. So how can one tell if they are C. Pepo (New World) or lageneria (Old World)? Is the shape of the buds different? -- David/Cariadoc ---------------------- In this case, the ovaries are ribbed which is indicative of genus Cucurbita. Genus Lagenaria tend toward smooth ovaries. If you can get a close look at the stem, most, if not all, Cucrbita have a deeply ribbed stem. Lagenaria (at least all those I have observed) have a round, smooth stem with fine almost thread-like ribs. I'm more taken aback by their identification of the big yellow cucurbit in the middle of the painting as being C. pepo. I don't know how they are making the taxonomic differentiation. In my view, it could be either a basket gourd or a pumpkin. Bear Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:09:47 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Squash in Scappi's Opera Professor Janick is the author of such papers as: Janick, J. (2008). Giant pumpkins: Genetics and cultural breakthroughs. Chronica Horticulturae, 48(3), 16-17. Janick, J., & H. S. Paris (2008). Cucurbitaccae 2008 (33-41). INRA. Janick, J., S. S. Renner, J. Scarborough, H. Schaefer, & H. S. Paris (2008). Cucurbitacceae (273-280). INRA. Janick, J. (2008). Reflections on linguistics as an aid to taxonomical identification of ancient Mediterranean cucurbit. Curcurbitacceae 2008 (43-51). INRA. Janick, J., & R. E. Paull (2008). Encylopedia of Fruits & Nuts. CAB International. This was just reviewed in the most recent issue of Gastronomica. By all accounts he's considered to be an expert on the subject. I suspect he may well be able to look at a flower and tell if they are squash or not. You could of course write the authors at Purdue University and ask. They can be contacted at janick at purdue.edu. Johnnae On Sep 18, 2009, at 5:58 PM, David Friedman wrote: <<< Early Evidence for the Culinary Use of Squash Flowers in Italy http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:LfO8qEW9hm0J:www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/squashflowers.pdf+Jules+Janick+purdue+squash&hl=en&gl=us >>> As far as I can see, the buds are closed, so you cannot see the color of the flowers--white or yellow. So how can one tell if they are C. Pepo (New World) or lageneria (Old World)? Is the shape of the buds different? -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 22:29:54 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Squash in Scappi's Opera Scappi is about 1570 and New World cucurbits appear in Fuchs' herbal of 1540, so squash were known and probably eaten in Scappi's day. As to Scappi, common squash is probably a bottle gourd. Hairy squash is almost certainly one of the hairy gourds or loofah. The description of Savona squash in Scappi makes me think it is a gourd. The instructions for storing Turkish squash, the instructions for harvesting and the name make me think this is a New World cucurbit, specifically a variant of C. pepo. Genoese is completely open to question. There is not enough information to determine whether this is a squash or a gourd. Bear <<< On one of the local culinary lists I'm on a discussion came up about squash, whether they were found and used in pre-1700 Europe, and if so, what breeds. I've been going through not only all of the great recipes in Scappi, but the extremely useful indexes as well. In the index listing all ingredients by type squash are listed under vegetables and herbs above ground: Squash (common, hairy, Genoese, Savona, Turkish). But I don't know what any currently available equivalents might be, any thoughts on what appropriate substitutions might be? As for how they would have been cooked in renaissance Italy, listings for squash in the index under preparations include: squash, in a think soup in lent, in a thick soup with almond milk, in a think soup with meat broth, stuffed in lent, squash and onions in a thick soup, stuffed boiled and oven baked, fried, tourte without cheese, and rinds. Sounds like some potential ideas for a wonderful fall meal, vegan or carnivore options as well. :) Raffaella >>> Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 04:45:14 +0000 From: CHARLES POTTER To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Squash in Scappi's Opera Scully translates the native zucca as pumpkin which is wrong, it should be translated as gourd. Many times they will call New World zucca as zucca from India or Turkey. All squashes (yellow flower) are New World and the zucca they had in period are gourds (white flower). They have both in the Opera as Scappi will tell you. This is a very confusing area for us in SCA because the scientists that work with taxanomic classification of squashes and gourds have had a tough time with this as well. Basilius Phocas <<< I'm also not sure which edition the Scappi translation is based on, but I do have some translation questions, here and there. :) It looks like the name Scully is translating from his source document as "squash" is zucca, and in one case he says "the name of a dish is Spanish, deriving from carabazza, the spanish word for Scappi's zucca, Squash." He also says the qualifier "local" identifies crook-neck squash. There are 4 "squash" recipes in a row in book II, from 218-221, and most of them are for soups. Raffaella >>> Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 15:40:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Louise Smithson To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Squash in Scappi's Opera Rafaella wrote: It looks like the name Scully is translating from his source document as "squash" is zucca, and in one case he says "the name of a dish is Spanish, deriving from carabazza, the spanish word for Scappi's zucca, Squash." He also says the qualifier "local" identifies crook-neck squash. Johnnae already pointed out my class on new world foods in old world menus, which is also in the florilegium. And the fantastic Villa Farnesia paper, and a heck of a lot more sources I have to now bookmark. This particular translation was another place I had an issue with Scully. In the original Italian it is easy to tell which is which, they are given as Zucche nostrale and Zucche Turchesche - or to put it another way, Gourds (most likely snake gourd which are still grown and eaten in Italy), i.e. old world squash, and Turkish or new world squash, which scappi himself then says "and you can make any dishes of these that you make of the gourd". Which pretty much gives you a whole lot of leeway. The images from the Villa Farnesia are absolutly one of the biggest indicators that squash travelled quickly and took over quickly. The agricultural information (translation given in the above mentioned class) also seems to indicate that new world squash were quickly adopted, as they grow pretty much the same and are used in almost exactly the same way as old world squash. Book 2 - meats recipe 218 - per far minestra di zucche nostrali con brodo di carne in diversi modi - To cook a dish of gourds with broth in many ways Recipe 219 - per far minestra di zucche, & cipolle in diversi modi, dal vulgo detto carabazzata - to make a dish of gourds and onions in many ways, commonly called carabazzata Recipe 220 - per far minestra di zucche truchesche - to make a dish of Turkish squash (aka new world squash) Recipe 221 - Per alessare and cuocere in forno le sopradette zucche intere, ripiene in diversi compositioni - to boil and cook in the oven the above said whole squash (turkish) filled with various stuffings (this is a fun recipe a pumpkin is hollowed out and stuffed with meat and sausage meat then baked). The big one for me is recipe 220 which gives the description of squash as follows: Take squash in it's season which starts in October and lasts all through April. Book 3 lenten recipes Recipe 225 - Per far minestra di zucche nostrali in giorno di quaresima - to make a dish of our gourds in lenten days ( also includes Marine squash which are New world) Recipe 226 - Per empire zuchhe nostrali in giorno quaresimale - to stuff our gourds in lenten days Recipe 227 - per friggere zucche nostrali - to fry our gourds (also references zuchhe marina, which has to be parboiled before frying). Recipe 228 - per cuocere scorze di zucche dal vulgo dette Zazzere - to cook skins of gourds, commonly called Zazzere. For this reason I cooked butternut squash this weekend for the feast I did. Parboiled for 5 minutes and then fried on a griddle with lots of butter. Oddly enough a lot of people wanted the recipe claiming it was the best squash they'd ever eaten, don't know why something so simple appears to be so popular. But there you go. Helewyse still not unpacked yet, Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 05:47:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Louise Smithson To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] Squash was Re:Helewyse's latest feast I suggest that "Helewyse's latest feast" would have been a more accurate and less alarming subject line. Also, I didn't follow all of the discussion of Squash in Scappi. Do we know that New World squash was cooked in the fashion Helewyse describes? -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com ============================ The mode of preparation is mostly taken from the lean day recipe for squash and also from comments in Castelvetro and also Mattioli (full refs below). Essentially I left out the flouring bit, due to feast mass production considerations and substituted butter for oil as it wasn't a feast day. From Mattioli we have (emphasis mine in bold): Gourds One can find other than these of ours (gourds) in Italy those that are served all the winter, of various sizes, shapes and colors. These new (as they are called) came from the Indians; some of these, called sea gourds, have been in Italy for longer. All of them, however have the shape of a melon, but some are very large, others large, others small, and others medium, some are segmented like melons, and others have ribs inside the floret, they are borne on stalks, well lifted and distinct, and a strong shoot, and several are round, others flat, others tending towards long, of various colors, the which of them there are truly so many of note today that I cannot possible describe them all. All these species produce leaves somewhat larger than ours, coarser, and ragged like a hand, attached by large and rigid stems, and of a similar form to living leaves. They have tendrils which are large, sharp, angled and hairy, which slide across the ground for a long way and vine (like beans) up into trees, hedges and trellises like ours. The flowers are similar to the lily, only yellow and much larger. One harvests them in the autumn and serves them then all the winter in food. They produce large seeds, like almonds, flat and white, and within is a meat which is sweet and gentle. They taste sweet and not bland like ours, but they are tasty without seasoning them with condiments and aromatic spices. Excerpted from Castelvetro section on pumpkins: The small ones can be cooked whole in salted water then cut up and put in a covered pot with melted butter and salt and pepper and left to soak up the flavors. Everyone enjoys them this way. From Scappi, To make various dishes with Turkish squash, Chapter 220, 2nd book, Scappi Take the Turkish squash in its season, which begins in the month of October and lasts through all of April, and clean it of the skin and of the innards. Cut it into pieces and parboil it, when it is parboiled chop it with a knife and put it to cook in good meat broth, thicken and enrich it with grated cheese and beaten eggs. One can also prepare it with onions in the same way that one prepares our squash as described above. Be aware that if the squash is firm it will be much better, and to store them one should put them in a dry and airy place. And they (the squash) should not have any holes in them anywhere, because air will lead them to putrefaction. In this way one can make dried skin of Savonese squash, after they are parboiled in hot water and left to soak in cold water. To fry our gourds Chapter 227, 3rd book, Scappi Take the tender smaller gourds, peel them gently then cut in slices across, and when they are cut sprinkle with fine salt and let them rest for a bit above a table. Press out carefully all the water and flour with fine flour and fry in oil and serve hot thus dry with sugar above or with pounded verjuice grapes, with sprouts of fresh fennel, a clove of garlic and bepper, and if you don't have new verjuice used aged. One can also cover them with a sauce made of basil shoots, and sweet fennel and walnuts tempered with verjuice. In this way you can make the marine squash (new world) after they are cut in thin slices and parboiled in water and salt. Mattioli, P., I discorsi di M. Pietro Andrea Matthioli,... nei sei libbri di Pedacio Dioscoride Anazarbeo della materia medicinale. 1597: Felice Valgrisio. Castelvetro, G., Brieve racconto di tutte le radici, di tutte l'erbe e di tutti i frutti che crudi o cotti in Italia si mangiano. 1614, In Londra, M.DC.XIV. Scappi, B., Opera : (dell' arte del cucinare). Reprint. First published: Opera di M. Bartolomeo Scappi. Venice, 1570. 1981, Bologna: Arnaldo Forni. [20], 436 leaves [ca. 888 p.], [28] p. of plates. Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 20:18:55 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] So, just what was a Pumpion? 'Tis the season... for this to come around again on the gee-tar: On our local cooks list, people have been asking for both period and non-period pumpkin recipes. According to my limited research, the first documented written use of the word "pumpion" was in 1526, although i don't known where. Apparently it was first defined in the 1545 edition of Sir Thomas Elyot's dictionary as "a kynde of Melones called Pompones" The word itself, now "pumpkin", comes from Middle French "pompon" and "popon", from Old French "pepon", from Latin "pepo", referring to a kind of melon, from the Greek "pepon" meaning "ripe". It remains unclear to me if in the 16th c. "pompion" (as i've seen it written) refers to a melon, a round gourd, or to some New World squash. Helewyse has demonstrated that New World squashes were used in Italy in the 16th century, but i don't known about elsewhere, or whether gourds and squashes were used interchangeably, or if there was a preference for one over the other, and which kinds of squashes were known in Europe. -- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:25:12 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: [Sca-cooks] So, just what was a Pumpion? And the Florilegium doesn't satisfy their requests for recipes? I think spelling varies as does what plant was being referred to at any one time or in any one place. ------ OED defines it as "The large fruit of a cucurbitaceous plant (Cucurbita Pepo); a pumpkin; also the plant itself. 1545 Elyot Dict., Pepo,..a kynde of Melones called Pompones 1555 Eden Decades 127 Gourdes melones cucumers pompons citrons. 1587 Harrison England ii. xiii. (1877) i. 259 An acre of ground..whereon to set cabbages..pompons, or such like stuffe. 1601 Holland Pliny xix. v. 14 Now when they exceed in greatnes, they be called Pepones, i. Melons or Pompons. 1573 Tusser Husb. (1878) 95 Herbes and rootes to boile or to butter... Pompions in May. ------------ Florio in 1598's A vvorlde of wordes, or Most copious, and exact dictionarie in Italian and English, collected by Iohn Florio, includes: Zucca, a pompion, or a gourd. Also a salt-boxe, for that in Italie they vse to make of dried gourds saltboxes, bottles, or lanternes. It is also taken metapho|ricallie for a mans pate, head, braine, skonce, or nole, or skull. Also a kinde of wyne-measure. Also a skull, a head|piece, or steele-cap. Also a kinde of drinking glasse. Zuccata, a meate made of pompions or gourds. Also a flim-flam tale, a tale without ryme or reason, or without head or foote. Zucchetta, a little gourd or pompion. ----- The herball or Generall historie of plantes. Gathered by Iohn Gerarde of London Master in Chirurgerie very much enlarged and amended by Thomas Iohnson citizen and apothecarye of London. Gerard, John, 1545-1612., Johnson, Thomas, d. 1644,, has this chapter. In part: CHAP. 345. Of Melons, or Pompions "1 Pepo maximus oblongus. The great long Pompion. 2 Pepo maximus rotundus. The great round Pompion. 3 Of this kinde there is also another Pompion like vnto the former in rough stalkes, and in gashed and nicked leaues: the floure is also great and yellow, like those of the others: the fruit is of a great bignesse, whose barke is full of little bunnies or hillie welts, as is the rinde of the Citron, which is in like manner yellow when it is ripe. 4 The fourth Pompion doth very much differ from the others in form: the stalks, leaues, and floures are like those of the rest: but the fruit is not long or round, but altogether broad, and in a manner flat like vnto a shield or buckler; thicker in the middle, thinner in the compasse, and curled or ??? in certaine places about the edges, like the rugged or vneuen barke of the Pomecitron; the which rinde is very soft, thin, and white: the meat within is meetely hard and dureable. The seed is greater than that of the common Cucumber, in forme and colour all one. ? Macocks Virginiani, sive Pepo Virginianus. The Virginian Macocke, or Pompion. ? This hath rough cornered straked trailing branches proceeding from the roor, eight or nine foot long, or longer, and those againe diuided into other branches of a blackish greene colour, trailing, ???, or running alongst the earth, couering a great deale of ground, sending forth broad ??? rough leaues, on great grosse, long, rough, hairy foot-stalks, like and fully as big as the leaues of the common Pompion, with clasping tendrels and great broad shriueled yellow floures also like those of the common Pompion: the fruit succeedeth, growing a longst the stalkes, commonly not neere the root, but towards the vpper part or toppes of the branches, somewhat round, not exten|ding in length, but flat like a bowle, but not so bigge as an ordinarie bowle, beeing seldome foure inches broad, and three inches long, of a blackish greene colour when it is ripe. The sub| stance or eatable part is of a yellowish white colour, containing in the middest a great deale of pulpe or soft matter, wherein the seed lyeth in certaine rowes also, like the common Pompion, but smaller. The root is made of many whitish branches, creeping far abroad in the earth, and perish at the first approch of Winter. 3 Pepo maximus compressus. The great flat bottommed Pompion. 4 Pepo maximus clypeatus. The great buckler Pompion. 5 Pepo Indicus minor rotundus. The small round Indian Pompion. 6 Pepo Indicus angulosus. The cornered Indian Pompion. ----------------------- Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America states "Pumpkins The pumpkin (Curcurbita pepo) is thought to have originated in Central America about 5500 b.c.e. It was widely disseminated throughout North America in pre-Columbian times. With its thick shell and solid flesh, the pumpkin can be stored through the winter. Native Americans also preserved pumpkin by slicing and drying it. Pumpkins were introduced into the Old World shortly after the first European explorations of the New World. They are mentioned in European works beginning in 1536. They were originally called pompions, or large gourds, and they were cultivated in England by the mid-sixteenth century, well before Thomas Hariot mentioned them in his Briefe and True Report of the New Found Land of Virginia (1588). Hence, English colonists were familiar with pumpkins prior to settling in North America and immediately began growing them when they arrived. Although pumpkins are related to squash, American colonists carefully distinguished between them and used them culinarily in different ways." Recipewise 44 - Doce de ab?bora. from A Treatise of Portuguese Cuisine from the 15th Century (Portugal, 15th c. - Fernanda Gomes, trans.) The original source can be found at Lochac Cooks' Guild Website begins in translation "Pumpkin Compote. Obtain a very hard pumpkin, and cut it into pieces, whatever size and shape you like, peeling and cleaning them very well inside." ----------- Pompion seeds or kernels are called for in the 1659 The Queens closet opened. ----- The queen-like closet; By Hannah Wolley or Woolley. 1670. XCIII. To make a Pompion-Pie. Having your Paste ready in your Pan, put in your Pompion pared and cut in thin slices, then fill up your Pie with sharp Apples, and a little Pepper, and a little salt, then close it, and bake it, then butter it, and serve it in hot to the Table. XCIV. To fry Pompion. Cut it in thin Slices when it is pared, and steep it in Sack a while, then dip it in Eggs, and fry it in Butter, and put some Sack and Butter for Sauce, so serve it in with salt about the Dish Brims. ----- http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/PieHistory/PumpkinPie.htm I worked on this entry, corrected it and supplied recipes to the entry a couple years ago. At one point they had credited Countess Alys with the 1655 Compleat Cook. Johnnae Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 22:01:29 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gourds was Re: Seljuk/Rumi/Sufi Cuisine On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:25 PM, wrote: << (sarcasm on) She also includes such 13th century Anatolian favorites as butternut squash and zucchini, both New World in origin. (sarcasm off) Is she suggesting them as substitutes for the period 'gourd'? I've seen This done before (and done it myself, upon occasion). I would have no problem with that, although getting various edible gourds is not that difficult if one lives where there are Middle Eastern, South Asian, Southeast Asian, or East Asian markets. And now that i have been using them, i find them far preferable in flavor and texture to zucchini, which is very watery by comparison. >> <<< What are they called in the stores? Any chance you have pictures of them? We have a variety of grocery stores around, but identifying what I might want is harder :-) Eyrny >>> Commonly calabash, dipper and bottle gourds. You might also find them under the names upo, cucuzza, lau, lauka, tapara, qara, bak, etc., etc., etc. They come in shapes and colors similar to New World squash, but can be easily differentiated by the stem. New World squash have deeply ribbed stems. Old World gourds have round stems with very fine, almost unnoticeable ribs. The term gourd can be used to describe all members of the cucurbit family (Cucurbitaceae) or true gourds (genus Lagenaria), so don't trust that what is called a gourd to be a true gourd. Bear Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 23:05:03 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Seljuk/Rumi/Sufi Cuisine On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:42 PM, Kathleen Gormanshaw wrote: <<< What are they called in the stores? Any chance you have pictures of them? We have a variety of grocery stores around, but identifying what I might want is harder :-) Eyrny >>> http://www.epicurious.com/articlesguides/seasonalcooking/farmtotable/visualguideasianproduce A Visual Guide to Asian Fruits and Vegetables Everything you need to know about produce from China, India, Malaysia, and other regions Text by Esther Sung; photos by Chris Astley Read More http://www.epicurious.com/articlesguides/seasonalcooking/farmtotable/visualguideasianproduce#ixzz0mSFm442L Johnnae Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 21:49:46 -0400 From: Guenievre de Monmarche To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: [Sca-cooks] Melons, cucumbers and eggplants, oh my! Given our many conversations on the list regarding cucumbers, melons, and eggplant, the attached may be of interest to some... http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/TS_aob.pdf (*The Cucurbitaceae and Solanaceae illustrated in medieval manuscripts known as the Tacuinum Sanitatis)* Guenievre Edited by Mark S. Harris gourds-msg Page 59 of 59