cabbages-msg – 12/ 6/11 Period cabbages. Broccoli, cauliflower, Brussel sprouts. Recipes. NOTE: See also the files: vegetables-msg, root-veg-msg, artichokes-msg, eggplant-msg, asparagus-msg, salads-msg, peas-msg, mushrooms-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:59:29 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Cook's/peer fear (longish) > what vegebles in the "brocolli" family, if any, are period? They are all > technically mustards aren't they? Yes, they are. Related to cabbages, I believe, also. I remember a huge argument about this on the UseNet newsgroup rec.food.historic fairly recently. Modern broccoli seems to be a fairly recent (19th century or so) development on the part of plant breeders, probably American. The rumor that it was "invented" by a family named Broccoli is simply untrue. The plant we now call broccoli-rabe is probably period, though, although I don't recall any recipes for it offhand. You might check Platina (I don't own a copy---horrors!) and perhaps the Tacuinum Sanitatis, which is sort of a medical manual which talks about almost every conceivable food product available in the late medieval Mediterranean basin. You may find that the leafy, headless cabbages are the closest you will get: things like kale and collard greens. Brussels sprouts, though, are period, I understand. I know that takes a load off your mind ; ) ! Adamantius Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:55:08 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Cauliflower Uduido at aol.com wrote: > << But I have seen several period recipes for cauliflower. >> > > Where have you seen these? It was my understanding that a lady in England in > the 1800's went to her garden and spotted a 'white' broccoli among her > regular broccoli plants. Being the intelligent country gardener that she was, > she let the plant go to seed and planted the sed the next year producing > couliflower. From that simple experiment all cauliflower today is descended. > > Lord Ras There are recipes for boiling cauliflower (variously spelled) in late period sources. Without going through my bookshelves for the specific sources, I think that such recipes would be found in things like Dawson's "The Good Huswife's Jewell", Markham's "The English Housewife", Murrell's "New Booke of Cookerie", or perhaps either Hugh Plat or Digby. I believe both broccoli and cauliflower are plants of the Mediterranean Basin, long ignored as weeds, and finally cultivated by the Italians, originally. Adamantius Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:53:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Russell Gilman-Hunt Subject: SC - cauliflower [(Oliver de Serres' Le Theatre d'agriculture, 1600)] includes instructions for growing the less common kinds [of cabbage] including cauliflower (cauli-fiori), 'as the Italians call it' which are still rather rare in France... Wheaton, _Savoring_The_Past_, 1996, p 66 Conchobar AoA, WOAW, A&S Champion of Three Mountains Apprentice to Ollamh Lono of Adiantium Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 00:49:47 GMT From: korny at zikzak.net (Kornelis Sietsma) Subject: Re: SC - Broccoli & Fennel On Mon, 4 May 1998 04:20:17 EDT, Kallyr wrote: >Oh. Please share this recipe. It sounds perfect & simple. Just the original >is fine. Ok - this is from the text reprinted in "The Original Mediterranean Cuisine", so the copyright for the translation may belong to the author of that book... The author also made the assumption that "tips of fresh cabbage", in a recipe entitled "Green Cabbage" probably meant something akin to broccoli... Green Cabbage with meat (Cauli Verdi con Carne) - - Libro Della Cocina - ---------------- Take the tips of fresh cabbage, and throw them into the boiling pot with the meat, and boil them; then take them out and put in cold water. Then take another lot of stock in another pot, and add the white part of fennel; and when it is time to eat, add the said cabbage to the previous pot, and bring it to the boil, and then add chicken stock, or oil. - ---------------- I boiled 2 heads of fennel with about 500g of broccoli per table, in a huge pot of stock. I boiled them for abour 5 minutes, removed them, washed them under cold water, and then put them back into the same stock for another 5 minutes. I assumed that the change of stock was superfluous with modern washed vegetables :) The second batch of broccoli and fennel I cooked didn't get parboiled first - - it just took too much time - but they still tasted fine. - -Korny - -- Kornelis Sietsma http://zikzak.net/~korny icq: 2039172 e-mail: korny at zikzak.net or korny at a2.com.au Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 09:27:49 EDT From: LrdRas Subject: Re: SC - Broccoli & Fennel allilyn at juno.com writes: << I have often heard prople say that broccoli is not period. If someone has actual documentation for broccoli >> This isn't exactly documentation but it works for me. :-) In "Food" by Waverly Root it says that the word "broccoli" once meant 3 things> 1. Brassica oleracea italica, 2. B. oleracea botrytis, 3. The flower stalk that pushes up from the center of any cabbage at the end of it's life (it is edible). No.1 is broccoli as we know it. No.2 is cauliflower. No.3 is still referred to as "broccoli" in France. Apicius was noted for his skill in handling broccoli. Drusus, son of Tiberius was accused of overindulging in it. Introduced into France by Catherine de Medici. First known use of the word broccoli in French was in 1560. Broccoli did not arrive in England until 1720. Ras Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 09:12:16 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Broccoli & Fennel Broccoli (Brassica oleracea italica) appears to have been used in Ancient Rome. Catherine de' Medici is attributed with bringing them to France, where they became popular in the 17th Century. They became popular in England in the 18th Century. Related vegetables are cauliflower (Brassica oleracea botrytis) and brussel sprouts (Brassica oleracea gemmifera). Cauliflower has been grown since Roman times. Brussel sprouts are an 18th Century creation. The primary source for this is Trager's The Food Chronology, so take it with a grain of salt. I haven't checked Apicius yet, but I would say both broccoli and cauliflower are period in the context of an Italian meal. Bear Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:04:19 -0700 From: david friedman Subject: RE: SC - Broccoli & Fennel At 9:12 AM -0500 5/6/98, Decker, Terry D. wrote: (comments on broccoli snipped) >Brussel sprouts are an 18th Century creation. > >The primary source for this is Trager's The Food Chronology, so take it with >a grain of salt. However, Menagier mentions something which sounds pretty similar: "Heads of cabbage, at the end of grape-harvest. And when the head of this cabbage, which is in the middle, is removed, pull and replant the cabbage stalk in new ground, and there will come out large spreading leaves: and a cabbage holds great place, and these are called Roman cabbages, and eaten in winter; and from the stalks, if they are replanted, come little cabbages called sprouts which are eaten with raw herbs and vinegar; and if you have plenty, they should be well cleaned, washed in hot water, and put to cook whole with a little water: and then when they are cooked, add salt and oil, and stir it up thick without water, and put olive oil on in Lent." Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 19:13:38 +1000 From: Robyn Probert Subject: SC - RE: Recipes as promised (long) TOMC = The Original Mediterranean Cuisine Fennel and Leek TOMC "Take the white part of the fennel, finely chopped, and fry with a little white of leek, finely chopped, with oil or salted pork, and add little water, saffron and salt, and bring to boil, and add beaten egg if desired." 'Salted pork' is pancetta. Broccoli with Fennel TOMC "Take the tips of green cabbage, and throw them into the boiling pot with the meat and boil them; tghen take them out and put in cold water. Then take abnother lot of stock in another pot and addthe white part of fennel; and when it is time to eat, add the said cabbage to the previous pot, and bring it to the boil and then add chicken stock, or oil." Note the blanch-then-cold-water technique! This one could be easily adapted fopr vegetarians by using vegetable stock (as per previous discussion). As an aside, you can add body and "mouth feel" to a veggie stock by using the cooking water from a pot of beans as a starter/additive. Also adds nutritional value (the protiens are what make the stock thicken). Rowan Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 00:40:33 EDT From: KKimes1066 at aol.com Subject: SC - Coleworts---- Caroline help! << Or are you thinking of ancestral coles? If so, they still grow wild along the coasts of England. >> This is not the information I have. Sylvia Landsberg, in her book "The Medieval Garden" states: "The lack of a suitable small headed cabbage is not so important as the loss in England, only recently, of the colewort, ubiquitous in medieval it's nearest relative being a non-curly kale." I have found her cross references to by well above par and regard her as an expert in this field (or garden in this case). If Ras is right then I don't need to do this project, if he is mistaken then it's full steam ahead. Percival Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 06:48:29 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Coleworts---- Caroline help! > This is not the information I have. Sylvia Landsberg, in her book "The > Medieval Garden" states: "The lack of a suitable small headed cabbage is > not so important as the loss in England, only recently, of the colewort, > ubiquitous in medieval it's nearest relative being a non-curly kale." > > Percival I think you will find Ras is correct. Cabbage is one of the oldest cultivated plants, so old that a number of variants were in existence by the time Rome became a world power. Because they are so wide-spread and all the same species, the loss of a type of cabbage in English gardens does not denote its extinction, merely a change in English tastes. Bear Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:52:56 -0700 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" Subject: Re: Re[2]: SC - Italian Ren Feast Hi all from Anne-Marie Micaylah sez: > Turnips YEEEEEEAAAACK! One of my three "nightmare" vegetables. Cauliflower > (in any form) and Brocolli (it's ooookay raw). now, usually I hate it when someone says this to me but.... You haven't tried MY cauliflower! :) Robert May tells us to boil the collies in milk, which turns the slightly bitter taste into a delightful sweet nutty flavor. I converted several collie haters with this one! May dishes it up with boiled chicken and a tart egg-lemon sauce. Yum! --AM Madrone/An Tir Seattle/Madrone Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 22:01:51 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - Broccoli-a new world food? HICKS_M at casa.gov.au writes: << My allergy (avocado) and most of my sensitivities are new world foods (tomato, broccoli etc.) so I don't generally bother informing SCA cooks. >> I strongly suggest that you do inform the cook if broccoli or cauliflower are a problem with you. Thay are both Old World and period, dating back to at least Roman times. Ras Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:43:45 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Broccoli-a new world food? > I knew Cauliflower was - wasn't sure about Broccoli. Was it refered to > as Broccoli or did it have another name? > > Meliora. They're all varieties of cabbage. I don't have my notes handy, but memory says they are all believed to be descended from sea kale found on northern European coasts. Leafy forms with very small heads came first, then selective breeding produced cauliflower and broccoli, followed by head cabbage. Brussel sprouts are the newest variety. There is some question about the precise introduction of Brussel sprouts, but there is evidence to support its existence in period. Bear Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 07:33:34 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: Broccoli - was: SC - Sir Loin... LYN M PARKINSON wrote: > So, Master A., did they eat broccoli leaves--which taste like > broccoli--or eat no broccoli--or...??? Probably what they ate, if at all, was a wild variant along the lines of broccoli-rabe. Neither Platina nor any Tacuinum Sanitatis I've seen, nor Apicius, mention broccoli. (There are references to cauliculae in Apicius, which Flower and Rosenbaum translate as cabbage, but why wouldn't Apicius use brassica? I suspect cauliculae, which really translates as "little cabbage stalks", refers to what we call Brussels sprouts.) More likely broccoli wasn't widely eaten until the 16th or 17th century, with the big florette-y broccoli probably coming into being in California in the late 19th century. Adamantius Crown Province of Østgardr, East Kingdom Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 19:45:36 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Minces >Hello list, > >Could someone please tell me where in Le Menagier de Paris is found the >recipe for Minces? My copy (by Falconwood Press) is missing several >pages, most notably page 255, where I suspect the recipe might be, but >I'm not positive. > >Minces is the recipe for brussel sprouts; it's been reprinted in Pleyn >Delit, but I'm interested in finding the original receipt. The index for >Le Menagier has no mention of minces, but Pleyn Delit (version 1) says >its recipe comes from Le Menagier de Paris. Their version reads: > >"Minces. Little cabbages called minces are eaten with raw herbs in >vinegar; and if one has plenty, they are good shelled, washed in hot >water, and cooked whole with a little water; and when they are cooked, >add some salt and oil and serve thick, without water, and put olive oil >on them in Lent." > >My thanks! Feel free to write me privately if you'd like to avoid >cluttering up the list with extra mail! > >BTW, is there anyone from Falconwood Press on this list? > >Master Huen >-- >A Boke of Gode Cookery >http://www.labs.net/dmccormick/huen.htm Hello! It's on page 143 of Pichon's edition: [page 142] "Porée de minces26 est en saison, de Janvier jusques à Pasques, et encore après. Et nota que à faire porée au lait d'amandes, le lait ne doit point estre coulé par l'estamine; en aucuns autres potages ou à boire, si fait. Porée noire est celle qui est faite à la ribelette de lart; c'est assavoir que la porée est esleue, lavée, puis mincée et esverdée en eaue boulant, puis fritte en la gresse des lardons; et puis alaier27 d'eaue chaude frémiant (et dient aucuns, qui la laveroit d'eaue froide, qu'elle seroit plus laide et noire), puis convient mettre sur chascune escuelle deux lardons. CHOULX sont de cinq manières: les meilleurs sont ceulx qui ont esté férus de la gelée, et sont tendres et tost cuis; et en temps de gelée ne les convient point pourboulir, et en temps pluyeux, si. (Et commence à iceulx pour ce que ce sont de celle année les premiers crus, scilicet puis Avril,28 et puis va en descendant vers vendenges, Nouel et Pasques.) [page 143] Choulx blanc sont en la fin d'Aoust. Pommes de chou , sur la fin de vendenges. Et quant la pomme d'icelluy chou , laquelle est ou milieu, est ostée, l'en arrache et replante en terre nouvelle le tronc de ce chou, et en yssent larges feuilles qui s'espandent: et tient un chou grant place, et l'en appelle iceulx choulx nommés29 choulx Rommains, et sont mengiés en yver; et des troncs, se ils sont replantés, yssent de petits choulx que l'en appelle minces, que l'en mengue avec les herbes crues en vinaigre; et qui en a foison, ils sont bons esleus, lavés en eaue chaude, et tous entiers mis cuire avec un petit d'eaue: et puis quant ils sont cuis, mettre du sel et de l'uile, et dréciés bien espois sans eaue, et mettre de l'uille d'olive dessus en karesme. Puis y a autres choulx que l'en appelle choulx pasquerés pour ce que l'en les mengue en Pasquerez,30 mais ils sont semés dès Aoust; et quant après la semence ils sont percreus demy-pié de hault, l'en les arrache et plante-l'en ailleurs, et sont souvent arrousés. Aussi tous les choulx dessusdis sont premièrement semés, puis quant ils sont creus à demy-pié de hault, sont ostés et replantés. Et premièrement des pommes, est assavoir que quant icelles pommes sont effeuillées, eslites et mincées, il les convient très-bien pourboulir, et longuement plus que les autres choulx, car les choulx Rommains se veullent le vert des feuilles dessirer par pesches,31 et le jaune, c'est assavoir les arrestes ou veines,32 [p. 144] escachées33 ou mortier, puis tout ensemble esverder en eaue chaude, puis espraindre et mettre en un pot et de l'eaue tiède, qui n'a assez eaue de char: et puis servir du plus gras et34 de l'eaue de la char, et plusieurs y broient du pain. Et sachez que choulx veulent estre mis au feu dès bien matin, et cuire très-longuement et plus longuement que nul autre potage, et à bon feu et fort, et doivent tremper en gresse de beuf et non autre, soient pommes ou choulx ou quels qu'ils soient, excepté minces. Sachez aussi que eaue grasse de beuf et de mouton y est propre, mais non mie de porc; celle de porc n'est pas bonne fors pour poreaux. Après, l'en fait choulx, à jour de poisson, après ce qu'ils sont pourboulis, cuire en eaue tiède: et mettre de l'uille et du sel." The notes for this section are: [p. 142] 26 Voy. pages 48 et 143. 27 Délayer. 28 On sait que l'année commençoit alors à Pâques. Les années 1392, 1393 et 1394, dans lesquelles on [p. 143] peut fixer l'époque de la composition du Ménagier (ainsi que je crois l'avoir démontré dans l'Introduction), commencèrent toutes trois en Avril. top of page 29 Les trois manuscrits portent nommés; je crois qu'il faut lire pommés ou pommes. 30 Temps de Pâques. 31 Déchirer par pièces. 32 Cotons. [p. 144] 33 Écrasés. 34 Et paroît être de trop. Greg Lindahl & I are slowly webbing Pichon's edition at: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/menagier/ Cindy (the two-fingered typist) Renfrow/Sincgiefu renfrow at skylands.net Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 06:31:06 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - BrusselsSprouts > I was wondering if you could give me some help on Brussel Sprouts. > My question to the wise amongst us is > are the sprouts in question really the "minces" as claimed in Pleyn Delit?, > and if you think they are do they appear in any other sources apart from > this. I know that they were grown in Belgium in the middle ages but were > they plentiful anywhere else? > > Heather Since Belgium was established in 1831, I doubt Brussel Sprouts were grown in that country in the Middle Ages. Root states the Belgians (members of said tribe) were growing them around 1200. IIRC, Belgium at the time was part of Burgundy. Also, according to Root, Brussel sprouts did not appear in England until the 19th Century. This would make the identification of "minces" as Brussel sprouts questionable. Again, IIRC, they are probably of Mediterranean origin and were fairly common in the Germanic states in period, where they were known as Rosenkohl (rose cabbage). Bear Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 08:38:57 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - BrusselsSprouts tamamsk at hotmail.com writes: << do they appear in any other sources apart from this. >> I am not convinced that they are 'minces' but I have no evidence to the contrary. :-( Another source of Brussels sprout recipes would be Apicius, IIRC. There are also allusions to cabbage 'sprouts' in other manuscripts. I think one of the main problems we have in identifying the various Cole varieties in period (specifically medieval) manuscripts is the apparent lack of specific terms for individual varieties. For instance, cabbage 'flowers' could be broccoli or cauliflower or possible actual flowers of cabbage. Cabbage leaves could be kale or sea kale, collards, or the leaves from any other Cole variety. Depending on whether you are using the first or second edition of Pleyn Delit will depend on how many grains of salt you take. The first edition has errors which the second edition corrected so the latter could be taken with fewer grains than the first. Even today it is difficult to wade through the Cole family since every one has the same scientific name whether it be Brussels sprouts or collard greens. Ideally the cultivar name is attached to the scientific name so you can generally understand what is being referred but this is not always the case. The best sources of modern information use common names for the coles which allows you to readily identify the particular Cole being discussed. If you have access to a variety of forms and maturities of coles, you might try the recipe using various possible forms (e.g., cabbage leaves, sea kale, kale, collards) when a reference is vague. The best tasting result would be the best choice, IMO. I hope this has not been too confusing but it does illustrate the uncertainty regarding specific varieties used in any particular period recipe. with regard to certain plant types. Ras Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:11:20 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - BrusselsSprouts Heather Payton wrote: > I was wondering if you could give me some help on Brussel Sprouts. I am > catering a period feast and wanted to give them a go as there will be mostly > adults and they usually like them. My question to the wise amongst us is > are the sprouts in question really the "minces" as claimed in Pleyn Delit?, > and if you think they are do they appear in any other sources apart from > this. I know that they were grown in Belgium in the middle ages but were > they plentiful anywhere else? The only actual period reference to Brussels sprouts I can think of offhand is the same one Hieatt, Butler and Jones use: Le Menagier de Paris, roughly 1390 C.E. In Eileen Powers' partial translation, it states, "Cabbage hearts at the end of the vintage. And when the heart of the cabbage, which is in the midst, is plucked off, you pull up the stump of the cabbage and replant it in fresh earth, and there will come forth from it big spreading leaves; and the cabbage takes a great deal of room and these cabbage hearts be called Roman cabbages and they be eaten in winter; and when the stumps be replanted, there grow out of them little cabbages which be called sprouts and which be eaten with raw herbs in vinegar; and if you have plenty, they are good with the outer leaves removed and then washed in warm water and cooked whole in a little water; and then when they be cooked add salt and oil and serve them very thick, without water, and put olive oil over them in Lent." I believe Powers translates "minces" as "sprouts" not because the word is a direct translation, but because the process seems to be pretty much that by which we get Brussels sprouts today, and so we'll know what Le Menagier is talking about. I just checked Platina for any reference to such sprouts, but found none, and I'm pretty sure there are no references to them in any of the 14th -15th century English sources. I'd say, as a general statement, that Brussels sprouts were known in parts of Europe, but not grown in all, possibly due to a shorter growing season in the more Northern parts of Europe. Adamantius Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 08:54:19 PDT From: "pat fee" Subject: SC - Requested recipe for Cabbage with leeks and Bacon Here is the recipe for Cabbage with leeks and baccon. I'm sorry it took so long, but I have been investigating the preservation of my family's recipe book. Cabbage with leeks and Bacon 1 head cabbage(green or red your choice) core removed and sliced 1/2 to 1 inch thick 4 slices of good Bacon the book calls for "side" meat, chopped and cooked slowly until the bits are crisp and there is a pool of Bacon fat in the bottom of your pot. 4 or more good big leeks sliced, white and 1/2 inch of the green. I suppose you could use onion for this if you wish. Use a good big one. Layer the leeks and cabbage in the pot on top of the Bacon bits and fat until it reaches an inch or so below the top, or until you run out of ingredients. Pour 1 1/2 cups of liquid. water works, but ale or beer is better over the cabbage ect. Cover tightly, place over heat source and let gently steam for about 20 minutes. Uncover and stir well. Serve Lady Katherine McGuire Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 01:02:50 EST From: allilyn at juno.com Subject: Re: SC - To make a tarte of Medlers Thomas mentions: If this recipe does not please you ("Medlers that be rotten"), there are other recipes, e.g. in the "Rheinfr‰nkisches Kochbuch" #31 in the RK is for cabbage, but says you can also do medlars, pears, etc. The same cabbage you can also prepare, in this put sweet spice powder and figs that are simmered in boiling water (or possibly just plumped rather than cooked). Give into it wine vinegar, strew raisins and almond kernels over it. You can also do medlars, pears and all the other ingredients (types of fruits or vegetables?) as you choose and not only the beet greens, but also slices of the beets from which the beet greens were taken. This is a fairly loose translation. I take it to mean that the medlars, pears, or other fruits could be used in place of the figs and/or raisins. I steamed a whole Savoy cabbage for High Table, interleaved it with steamed chard, making a nice contrast of pale and dark green leaves, and stuffed bits of figs, raisins, almonds and wine into the crevices of the leaf bases. Threw nasturium petals over, to jazz up the looks. The hollowed center of the cabbage was full of a sort of large meatball, taken from Gwen-Cat's 'pumpes' from her translation of Rumpole. King Christopher loved it. Other folks got the pumpes, but we didn't cook the chopped cabbage--too late and everybody full. Allison, allilyn at juno.com Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:52:23 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Garden Advice > By the way, what _is_ sea kale (besides some type of herb;-), ie what does it > look like, does it have any other names, what type of flavouring does it have, > & what types of dishes would you use it in? > > Thanks, Lorix Sea kale (Crambe maritima) is a cabbage-like plant found along the coast of Northern Europe. It is related to the Brassica (cabbages) and some authorities believe it to be the closest relative of the ancestoral cabbage. It resembles kale, a non-heading cabbage. Bear Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:35:30 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler Subject: Re: SC - Brussel sprouts The recipe I've been promising for the Brussels Sprouts is: Herbed Brussels Sprounts Brussels sprouts 1 10 oz pkg. frozen (actually, I use fresh ones...) Onion, 1 small, thinly striped. Butter, 1 tbsp. Garlic, 1 clove, minced Thyme, 1/4 tsp. Oregano, 1/4 tsp. Salt 1/4 tsp. Pepper, 1/4 tsp. Steam sprouts and onion slices for about 10 minutes. In a sauce pan melt butter. Saute the garlic until brown. Add the steamed sprouts and onion, thyme, oregano, salt and pepper. Cook, stirring ooccasionally, for 4-5 minutes, until vegetables are heated through. I hope you all enjoy...I know I do! Kiri Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 00:06:46 +0200 From: Thomas Gloning Subject: SC - Brussels sprouts, Rosenkohl // What is "Tyffan"? // Bohemian cookbook 1591? << ... I make brussel sprouts with sauteed onions and bacon diced, salt and pepper, honey and vinegar. ... It is similar to the treatment for hot German potato salad I learned from a Czeck butcher. Basically a sweet and sour taste. I have not really studied the German texts, maybe Thomas could tell us if that treatment is period? >> As far as I can see brussels sprouts were not known in 16th century Germany and before. Therefore, the treatment of brussels sprouts in the way you described it, would not be period, too. "As far as I can see", here means: I did some _quick_ diving around in: - -- German dictionaries (Grimm'sches Wˆrterbuch, Paul/Henne/Objartel, Alphabetisches Verzeichnis deutscher Pflanzennamen, Weigand/Hirt, Tr¸bner, Kluge/Gˆtze, the old culinary dictionaries of Marperger 1716 and Amaranthes 1715), - -- herbals (Tabernaemontanus 1731, which often includes references to the earlier herbals), - -- cookbooks (my electronic collection of German texts 1350 onwards), - -- dietary texts (Elsholtz' Diaeteticon), - -- books on culinary and food history (Moriz Heyne, Wiswe) but could not find anything indicating that brussels sprouts (and the aforesaid treatment of brussels sprouts) were known before 1600. There is one book which made me wonder. The German translation of "The book of ingredients" says on one page, that brussels sprouts were cultivated only something more than a hundred years ago (18th century), but on another page that (someone said) they were cultivated first in the Netherlands in the Middle Ages ("ROSENKOHL. Er soll erstmals in den im Mittelalter bl¸henden G‰rtnereien der Niederlande gez¸chtet worden sein"; p.240; "soll" ~ 'someone said/wrote that'). Up to now, I did not see medieval recipes for brussels sprouts in this thread, rather several people marked their posts with "OOP". Is there any evidence for brussels sprouts in the Middle ages somewhere? As always: I will keep my eyes open & : mistrust everything I said, I might have looked for the _wrong_ German word (there were other dialectal forms or words for brussels sprouts, e.g. _kohlsprossen_, on the other hand, the expression _Rosenkohl_ was earlier used for a kind of broccoli, too) ... More questions than answers. Sigh. Thomas Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:30:44 EDT From: ChannonM at aol.com Subject: SC - Re: Brussel sprouts in Period- Le Menagier In a message dated 4/7/00 9:08:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Thomas writes: << Up to now, I did not see medieval recipes for brussels sprouts in this thread, rather several people marked their posts with "OOP". Is there any evidence for brussels sprouts in the Middle ages somewhere? >> According to the Menagier, Cabbages are of five kinds; the best are those which have been touched with frost etc... snip Head of cabbage, at the end of grape harvest. And when the head of this cabbage, which is in the middle, is removed, pull and replant the cabbage stalk in the new ground, and there will come out large spreading leaves; and a cabbage holds great place and these are called Roman cabbages, and eaten in winter, and from the stalks, if they are replanted, caome little cabbages called sprouts which are eaten with raw herbs and vinegar, and if you have plenty they should be well cleaned, washed in hot water and put to cook whole with a little water and thebn when they are cooked add salt and oil, and stir it up thick without water, and put olive oil on in Lent. Then there are other cabbages......... My Laurel has created a recipe using brussel sprouts in vinegar and herbs, when I find it I'll post it. Hauviette Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:51:37 -0500 From: "Michael F. Gunter" Subject: SC - Brussel sprouts > Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to prepare brussel > sprouts in such a manner that this lady will like (and eat) them. > > /UlfR As an avowed Brussel Sprouts hater I actually came up with one that I like. Take brussel sprouts that are slightly opened. Boil them until a fork inserted in the base goes in fairly easily. Transfer the sprouts to a small, high-sided pan. (I use a pie tin). Add 1/2 stick butter and a generous sprinkling of minced garlic (About 2 cloves) and a bit of salt and pepper. Top with seasoned bread crumbs mixed with parmesian cheese. Broil until the tops of the sprouts begin to turn brown. Most of the bitterness has either been removed in the boiling or is covered by the flavors of garlic and parmesian. Very nice. > Par Leijonhufvud Gunthar Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:28:26 -0400 From: "Jeff Gedney" Subject: Re: SC - Brussel sprouts For me, when it comes to Brussel Sprouts, Simplicity rules. I like them prepared this way: with the tip of the knife, slit the stem ends in a cross, steam until just tender, and serve with a judicious splash of Balsamico. Even my _kids_ love them this way. brandu Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:08:56 -0400 From: Christine A Seelye-King Subject: SC - Brussel Sprouts Using a recipe I got from a Garde Manger chef I used to work with, I make brussel sprouts with sauteed onions and bacon diced, salt and pepper, honey and vinegar. It is the most amazing thing to see non-brussel sprout eaters lick the pan clean! It is similar to the treatment for hot German potato salad I learned from a Czeck butcher. Basically a sweet and sour taste. I have not really studied the German texts, maybe Thomas could tell us if that treatment is period? Christianna Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:04:07 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Brussels sprouts > but could not find anything indicating that brussels sprouts (and the > aforesaid treatment of brussels sprouts) were known before 1600. > > Thomas I have some conflicting references (tertiary and quaternary sources at best) for brussels sprouts which place them anywhere from the 13th Century to the 18th Century. The best potential reference I have seen is that brussels sprouts and kohlrabi are first mentioned in Rembert Dodoens' (Dodonaeus) "Cruydeboek" of 1554. I have not been able to locate a copy of this work to verify the statement. The original work is in Dutch. Bear Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:55:37 EDT From: ChannonM at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Brussels sprouts, Rosenkohl // What is "Tyffan"? // Bohe mian cookbook In a message dated 4/11/00 4:53:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,Bear writes: << The best potential reference I have seen is that brussels sprouts and kohlrabi are first mentioned in Rembert Dodoens' (Dodonaeus) "Cruydeboek" of 1554. I have not been able to locate a copy of this work to verify the statement. The original work is in Dutch. Bear >> I just saw a reference to kohlrabi in I believe a much earlier (maybe 12 C) list of stores or goods available from the grounds of the French King at the time. I'll check it out again and report back. I was thrilled at the list of food items, but was researching 12th C Ireland at the time and skipped it (I knew I should have saved) It's on a web site of Medieval manuscripts. Hauviette Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:55:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: RE: SC - Brussels sprouts, Rosenkohl // What is "Tyffan"? // Bohe mian cookbook 1591? - --- "Decker, Terry D." wrote: > I have some conflicting references (tertiary and quaternary sources at best) > for brussels sprouts which place them anywhere from the 13th Century to the > 18th Century. > > The best potential reference I have seen is that brussels sprouts and > kohlrabi are first mentioned in Rembert Dodoens' (Dodonaeus) "Cruydeboek" of > 1554. I have not been able to locate a copy of this work to verify the > statement. The original work is in Dutch. > > Bear It was translated into English in 1578 and called "A Nievve Herball, or Historie of Plantes" Lots of libraries have various editions of this in English, Dutch, and French. You can find this in these libraries: Yale Harvard Library of Congress Brigham Young Univ. Univ. of Minnesota Univ. of Syracuse Univ. of Rochester, NY Univ. of Chicago Univ. of Calif. Berkeley Stanford Univ. Univ. of Iowa Columbia Temple Univ. Univ. of Pennsylvania Brown Univ. Univ. of Michigan Univ. of Florida British Library There is a library in Missouri that has this also, but they are new to RLIN and are not on my list of RLIN subscribers yet. This book also has been translated into Japanese and is called "Ensai Dodoneusu Somokufu"! Huette Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 15:38:56 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: SC - Three Easy Pieces, or Verjus Redux The Shire of Crosston, with whom i camp, has a period pot-luck feast at every Crown Tournament (3 per year in the West). There are always guests, so there are around 2 dozen diners or so, and frequently other folks show up looking for food and we feed them, as well. Generally, there's plenty. At The West Kingdom March Crown Tourney just passed, I made three dishes from Barbara Santich's "The Original Mediterranean Cuisine" for the Saturday night feast. I didn't use her "redactions" for any of them, just referred to the originals and the translations. VERJUS REDUX I have now used the Fusion brand Napa Valley Verjus that i bought from Whole Foods and i thought it was quite nice. I tasted a spoonful of it before pouring some into the dish i was cooking - i'm weird, i probably could have drunk a juice glass of it - it was tart and fruity, but not bitter. I used it in a recipe for garbanzo beans cooked in almond milk. This was not the unpleasant white grape Fusion brand verjus that Niccolo di Francesco wrote about. I used the Fusion red verjus, which was a lovely purplish red color and was neither unpleasantly tart nor at all bitter, as Niccolo says the Fusion white was. I don't have the recommended Navarro brand to compare it with, but the Fusion red was quite good. PIECE ONE Ciurons Tendres Ab Let de Melles (from Sent Sovi) PIECE TWO Cauli Verdi con Carne (from Libro della Cocina) ORIGINAL: Togli le cime de' cauli sane, e gittale nelle pentola bugliente con le carne, e falli bullire; e cavali e metti nell'aqua fredda. Et tolto d'altro brodo in un'altro pentola, mettivi del biancho dei finocchi; et quando e ora del mangiare, poni i detti cauli con brodo nella pentola predetta; fa' bullire un poco, e puoi mettervi brodo di carne di caponne, o oglio. TRANS: Take the tips of fresh cabbage, and throw them into the boiling pot with the meat, and boil; and take them out and put them in cold water. Then take another broth in another pot, put the white part of fennel; then when it is the time to eat, add that cabbage in the broth in the previous pot; make it boil a little, and then chicken stock or oil. "Green cabbage" and finocchi/fennel cooked with meat. Santich says "In the text it is not clear exactly what is intended by 'green cabbage' nor by cime - which could refer to the tips of the cabbage or to the infloresence, which might have meant broccoli [which, she notes, was known by the 15th century]. In these recipes I have used both" WHAT I DID: I did not follow this recipe exactly. (1) I used frozen broccoli flowerets to save prep time on site. It was Crown and i knew i'd be busy. As it turned out, i was much busier than i'd expected - i didn't even get to set up the Moorish Science Reading Room. (2) Besides the broccoli, i tossed in some quartered Brussels sprouts. Since so many folks say they don't like Brussels sprouts, i didn't want to make the dish using nothing but them (as "cabbage sprouts"). And i didn't hear any protestations from diners, who probably didn't even realize they were eating the dreaded vegetable. I cut the white part of the fennel in medium-large cubes (about 3/4"). (3) The recipe says to cook each vegetable separately in meat stock. As it was Lent, i cooked them in vegetable stock. Also we have a couple vegetarians in our Shire and other who are guests, so i like to make sure there are filling meatless dishes available. (4) Also, i didn't have enough pans or serving dishes with me, so i cooked the vegetables together. I'd have done them separately, but i couldn't. The broccoli was still just about frozen, so i added all the vegetables at the same time. When they were done i tossed them with a little olive oil. I didn't even salt them, since the vegetable stock they'd cooked in was well seasoned. I was concerned that the flavor of the fennel would be strong, a taste i don't care for. In fact, it was quite mild, and the dish was a nice blend of green and white. I left the vegetables a tad firm from personal preference. PIECE THREE On Preparing a Salad of Several Greens (from de Honesta Voluptate) - --------------- I picked these dishes because they were relatively quick and easy to prepare at a busy event, yet authentic. I was actually done cooking before the others who cooked on site. (i mention this because i'm usually still cooking when everyone is already eating) Anahita al-shazhiyya Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:31:22 EDT From: To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Brussels Sprouts whutchis at bucknell.edu writes: << I've also been told that they _are_ a period plant, but with no documentation for either viewpoint. Anyone know for sure? -----Gille MacDhnouill >> Apicius uses the word 'cauliculae' which means little cabbage stalks'. Another possibility is Le Managier: "Heads of cabbage, at the end of grape-harvest. And when the head of this cabbage, which is in the middle, is removed, pull and replant the cabbage stalk in new ground, and there will come out large spreading leaves: and a cabbage holds great place, and these are called Roman cabbages, and eaten in winter; and from the stalks, if they are replanted, come little cabbages called sprouts which are eaten with raw herbs and vinegar; and if you have plenty, they should be well cleaned, washed in hot water, and put to cook whole with a little water: and then when they are cooked, add salt and oil, and stir it up thick without water, and put olive oil on in Lent." I know that is not definitive but it is, hopefully, a place to start. Ras Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:46:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Jenne Heise Subject: Re: SC - help on documentation Oh, by the way, here's some cabbage recipes: From the Domostroi: "Chop cabbage, greens, or a mixture of both very fine, then wash them well. Boil or steam them for a long time. On meat days, put in red meat, ham, or a little pork fat; add cream or egg whites and warm the mixture. During a fast, saturate the greens with a little broth, or add some fat [oil?] and steam it well. Add some groats, salt and sour cabbage soup. Cook kasha the same way; steam it well with lard, oil, or herring in a broth." - -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne at tulgey.browser.net Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 00:52:50 From: "pat fee" Subject: Re: SC - Seeking Cabbage Recipe Scotts Cabbage (Sangster family cook book) (Translation) This makes enough for 4-6 persons. 1 large head cabbage 1/4 lb baccon cubed and browned 4 large leeks, sliced in medium slices white part only 4 cloves garlic, minced 1/4 cup verjuice or cider vinegar 1/2 cup water or white wine. Salt if needed. Core cabbage, and cut in thick slices. Cook baccon in a medium heavy pan with a lid, untill browned. Remove the baccon bits. Cook leeks and garlic in baccon drippings until wilted. Remove when done. Layer cabbage, baccon bits, cooked leeks and garlic untill all are used. Combine verjuice and wine or water. Pour over the layers and cover and cook over medium low heat untill cabbage is tender. To serve drain and mix layers togather. Reduce pan"juice" by half. tast and add salt if neccessary. Pour reduced "juice" over cabage etc. Serve with buttered bread crumbs sprinkled over the top. Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:35:46 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Seeking Cabbage Recipe At 3:41 PM -0800 11/30/00, lilinah at earthlink.net wrote: >I planned to include Caboges in Potage from Forme of Cury in the >Boar Hunt Feast, but it just isn't exciting me. I have a "recipe" >with no source from a previous Boar Hunt [red cabbage, garlic, >vinegar, honey, ginger, pepper]. But i'm trying very hard to make >authentic recipes, although they are coming from several centuries. > >Any source for a tasty cabbage recipe? I want something savory to >zing with the sausage. I'm very fond of this one; and it's easy: Caboges Two Fifteenth Century p. 6/33 Take fayre caboges, an cutte hem, an pike hem clene and clene washe hem, an parboyle hem in fayre water, an thanne presse hem on a fayre bord; an than choppe hem, and caste hem in a fayre pot with goode fresshe broth, an wyth mery-bonys, and let it boyle: thanne grate fayre brede and caste ther-to, an caste ther-to Safron an salt; or ellys take gode grwel y-mad of freys flesshe, y-draw thorw a straynour, and caste ther-to. An whan thou seruyst yt inne, knocke owt the marw of the bonys, an ley the marwe ij gobettys or iij in a dysshe, as the semyth best, and serue forth. 1 medium head cabbage 4 lb marrow bones 1 T salt 4 c beef broth 6 threads saffron ~ 2 c breadcrumbs Wash cabbage. Cut it in fourths. Parboil it (i.e. dump into boiling water, leave there a few minutes). Drain. Chop. Squeeze out water. Put it in a pot with beef broth and marrow bones. Simmer until soft, stirring often enough to keep it from sticking (about 20 minutes). Add saffron, salt, enough bread crumbs to make it very thick. Simmer ten minutes more. Serve. - -- David Friedman ddfr at best.com Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:16:35 +0200 From: "Jessica Tiffin" Subject: SC - Re: Seeking Cabbage Recipe Anahita said, in pre-feast jitter mode: > I planned to include Caboges in Potage from Forme of Cury in the Boar > Hunt Feast, but it just isn't exciting me. I have a "recipe" with no > source from a previous Boar Hunt [red cabbage, garlic, vinegar, > honey, ginger, pepper]. But i'm trying very hard to make authentic > recipes, although they are coming from several > centuries. There's a _lovely_ cabbage, apple and bacon recipe from an Italian source in Barbara Santich's The Original Mediterranean Cuisine - I've made it several times for cooks' guild meetings and suchlike, and it goes down very well. I fear I'm rather short on detail as I don't have the book with me, aaargh, maybe someone else does, or else I can type it in when I'm at home this afternoon? (Which is probably the dead of everyone else's night, but hey.) JdH Lady Jehanne de Huguenin * Seneschal, Shire of Adamastor, Cape Town (Jessica Tiffin, University of Cape Town) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 13:35:51 -0700 From: "Brian L. Rygg or Laura Barbee-Rygg" Subject: Re: SC - Seeking Cabbage Recipe Here is the requested recipe. I included the original and its translation as she did take some liberties with her redaction IMHO. I wouldn't use bacon but the fresh salt pork slices that just look like bacon. Raoghnailt Cabbage with fennel and apple (Santich's redaction) Finely shred 1/4 Savoy (green) cabbage, drop into boiling salted water and boil 1 minute, then drain and rinse. Finely slice 1 small onion and half a bulb of fennel. Fry in 2-3 tablespoons olive oil until soft. Peel, quarter, and core a small apple and cut into small cubes (chop). Add to onion and fennel with drained cabbage and a little stock or water. Cover and steam for 5 min., then remove lid and cook a little longer to evaporate most of the liquid. Season with freshly ground pepper and salt to taste. As a variant, add strips of pancetta to the pan with the onion and fennel. The salty tang of the pancetta contrasts nicely with the natural sweetness of the onion, fennel, and apple. Cauli Verdi (Libro Della Cochina) (original) Togli le cime dei cauli, e falle bullire: poi le cava, e friggile nell'oglio con cipolle tagliate, e bianco di finocchi, e pome tagliate; e poni dentro un poco di brodo: et poi fa' le scudelle. e gittavi su de le spezie. Possonsi eziandio fare con lo lardo, col cascio e con l'ova perdute, et ponervi de le spezie; e dara' al Signore. Green Cabbage (translation) Take the tips of cabbage, and boil them: then remove them, and fry in oil with sliced onion, and the white part of fennel, and sliced apple; and add a little stock: and then serve it in bowls and sprinkle with spices. And you can also cook it with salted pork fat, with cheese and with poached eggs, and add spices; and offer it to your Lord. Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:23:45 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Period food in the workplace lilinah at earthlink.net wrote: > The original of the Santich recipe used a term for which the actual > vegetable is uncertain. Santich suggested broccoli, which i used. I > decided to use brussel sprouts, too, which i cut in halves or > quarters, because my understanding - or perhaps misunderstanding - > was that they are both late period and this was a late period recipe > and not knowing exactly what vegetable to use i figured they were > both about equally close. > > It was served at a pot luck dinner at a camping event, and it was > dark. I think if i'd said i'd made a dish of brussel sprouts no one > would have eaten it, but i said it was broccoli and no one complained > and i didn't notice folks digging out the brussel sprouts by candle > light. And the pot was empty by the end of the meal. I'm almost certain there's a fairly detailed description of the different forms of vegetable that you can get from one cabbage plant, in Le Menagier de Paris, IIRC. As I recall it's a progression something like, round headed cabbages first, then a short growing season for headless leaves, kind of like collard greens, then what amounts to Brussels sprouts last... I believe Ras has some information about this. Santich's mysterious vegetable may be cabbage at one of these alternate stages. Do you recall what term she uses? There is probably more stuff about cabbage and how it grows in Cato's De Agri Cultura. I'll look, later tonight. Adamantius From: lilinah at earthlink.net Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:45:41 -0700 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] German Recipes: Mushrooms? Third, there's no recipe for Cabbage in Sabrina Welserin, at least not the version on-line. However, i did find cabbage recipes in other German sources. ONE http://cs-people.bu.edu/akatlas/Buch/recipes.html # 48: Source: Das Buch von Guter Spise Translated & Reacted by Alia Atlas copyright Alia Atlas Ingredients 2 cup red wine vinegar 1/2 tsp caraway seeds 1 tsp ground anise 1/2 tsp pepper 1/4 tsp saffron (opt) 1 head of Cabbage Directions: Mix vinegar, honey, and spices Wash cabbage and shred. Soak cabbage in marinade for at least 1 hour. The original is on Thomas Gloning's website. TWO There are several in Rumpolt, but not useful for my feast. I'll most likely do the one from Guter Spise using red cabbage for color ...is red cabbage period? Anahita / Subaytila From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 00:36:54 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Recipes: Cabbage with Bacon; Sausages This looks like a nice hearty dish, and a simple one to prepare. Source: Diego Granado, _Libro del Arte de Cozina_ (1599) Translation: Lady Brighid ni Chiarain (Robin Carroll-Mann) Para hazer escudilla de repollo Tomase el repollo blanco apretado, y de buen peso y quitadas las ojas de encima tomese la parte mas blanca, cortese, lauese con agua fria, pongase en en caldo de carne hiruiendo, con tocino gordo picado, y papada de puerco salada, y rellenos, y hagase heruir en vn vaso ancho donde no esten las cosas muy apretadas, y estando cozidos siruase caliente el repollo con las demas cosas, poniendole queso rallado, pimienta, y canela por encima. El repollo quiere ser quitado del caldo en el punto que esta` cozido, porque quedandose en el caldo se buelue colorado, y azedo. Puedesele dar tambien vn hervor en el agua simple, primero que se ponga en el caldo. To make a dish of head cabbage Take the white head cabbage, tightly closed and of good weight, and the leaves on top being removed, take the whitest part, cut it, wash it with cold water, put it in boiling meat broth with chopped fatty bacon, and salted pork neck, and sausages, and boil them in a wide vessel where the things will not be very crowded, and when they are cooked, serve the cabbage hot with the rest of the things, putting grated cheese, pepper, and cinnamon on top. The cabbage should be removed from the broth at the moment that it is cooked, because if it is left in the broth, it will become red and sour. You can also give it a boil in plain water before it is put in the broth. Translation notes: "repollo" is the term for round head cabbage, as opposed to the open leafy kind Brighid, who finds that recipes are a pleasant respite from watching the news Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom rcmann4 at earthlink.net Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:07:32 -0500 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] um, red cabbage in period? Also sprach jenne at fiedlerfamily.net: >Do we have any documentation for red cabbage in period? I know German >cooks swear it is period, but I kinda need a book reference if there is >one for something I'm writing. Marx Rumpolt, in his 1581 "Ein New Kochbuch", sez: >33. Nimb ein rot Haeuptkraut/ schneidts fein klein/ vnd quells >ein wenig in warmen Wasser/ kuels darnach geschwindt au=DF/ machs mit >Essig vnd Oel ab/ vnd wenn es ein weil im Essig ligt/ so wirt es schoen rot. Roughly translated: Take a head of red cabbage/ cut it nice and small/ and blanch it a little in hot water/ then cool quickly/ make it with vinegar and oil/ and if it lies a while in the vinegar/ it becomes nice and red. Adamantius From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Subject: [Sca-cooks] um, red cabbage in period? Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:09:11 -0600 Rumpolt's Ein Neu Kochbuch has a red cabbage salad (No. 33 in the section on salads) in it. It may have some other recipes, but I haven't done much with it. There are also some 16th Century paintings which show red cabbage (IIRC). You might check Thomas Gloning's web page for references. Bear > Do we have any documentation for red cabbage in period? I know German > cooks swear it is period, but I kinda need a book reference > if there is one for something I'm writing. > > -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 14:25:16 -0500 From: johnna holloway To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] um, red cabbage in period? I'd check the Dutch artworks of the 16th-17th centuries for pictoral evidence. Weaver indicates that some of the heirloom red cabbages that we grow now were grown at least as far back as the early 18th-late 17th centuries. Unfortunately, cabbages cross pollinate, so varieties have sprung up rather freely through the centuries. Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 06:46:20 -0600 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: Diana Skaggs Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] um, red cabbage in period? >Marx Rumpolt, in his 1581 "Ein New Kochbuch", sez: >>33. Nimb ein rot Haeuptkraut/ schneidts fein klein/ vnd quells >>ein wenig in warmen Wasser/ kuels darnach geschwindt au=DF/ machs mit >>Essig vnd Oel ab/ vnd wenn es ein weil im Essig ligt/ so wirt es schoen rot. > >Roughly translated: >Take a head of red cabbage/ cut it nice and small/ and blanch >it a little in hot water/ then cool quickly/ make it with vinegar and oil/ >and if it lies a while in the vinegar/ it becomes nice and red. > >Adamantius I used this salad in my German feast last fall. I used a ratio of 2:1:1 of olive oil, red wine vinegar and balsamic vinegar. Bear also suggested (and I did) add a bit of sugar to the dressing to cut the bitterness of the vinegar. The neatest thing about this salad: when the cabbage is blanched, it turns a nauseating blue color. But, when the dressing is added, it turns a beautiful burgundy red. Also, it could have marinated awhile. I took what little was left over home with me. It stayed crisp for a couple more days. Liadan From: "Jane Williams" To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 21:18:54 +0100 Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] broccoli and cauliflower and sprouts On 24 May 2002 at 14:57, Decker, Terry D. wrote: > I've also come > across a drawing of brussels sprouts purporting to be from 1587, but I > haven't isolated the source. Aren't they (or something like them) mentioned in the Menagier? Translation says: "And when the head of this cabbage, which is in the middle, is removed, pull and replant the cabbage stalk in new ground, and there will come out large spreading leaves: and a cabbage holds great place, and these are called Roman cabbages, and eaten in winter; and from the stalks, if they are replanted, come little cabbages called sprouts which are eaten with raw herbs and vinegar; and if you have plenty, they should be well cleaned, washed in hot water, and put to cook whole with a little water: and then when they are cooked, add salt and oil, and stir it up thick without water, and put olive oil on in Lent." I think this is the right bit of the original (my French is pretty rusty): "Et quant la pomme d'icelluy chou , laquelle est ou milieu, est ost=E9e, l'en arrache et replante en terre nouvelle le tronc de ce chou, et en yssent larges feuilles qui s'espandent: et tient un chou grant place, et l'en appelle iceulx choulx nomm=E9s choulx Rommains, et sont mengi=E9s en yver; et des troncs, se ils sont replant=E9s, yssent de petits choulx que l'en appelle minces, que l'en mengue avec les herbes crues en vinaigre; et qui en a foison, ils sont bons esleus, lav=E9s en eaue chaude, et tous entiers mis cuire avec un petit d'eaue: et puis quant ils sont cuis, mettre du sel et de l'uile, et dr=E9ci=E9s bien espois sans eaue, et mettre de l'uille d'olive dessus en karesme." From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] broccoli and cauliflower and sprouts Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:05:14 -0500 > I'm confused. All those 16th century Flemish kitchen/veggie girl paintings > with cauliflower's recognizably in the painting - these are plants that look > like our modern ones, but are of a different genus or something? > > Rosine No, not even a different species. What you are seeing is a 16th Century representation of B. oleracea var. botrytis. The only difference between it and the cauliflower at your supermarket is the particular strain it represents. > > I've also come > > across a drawing of brussels sprouts purporting to be from 1587, but I > > haven't isolated the source. > > Aren't they (or something like them) mentioned in > the Menagier? > > Translation says: > "And when the head of this cabbage, which is in the > middle, is removed, pull and replant the cabbage > stalk in new ground, and there will come out large > spreading leaves: and a cabbage holds great place, > and these are called Roman cabbages, and eaten in > winter; and from the stalks, if they are replanted, > come little cabbages called sprouts which are eaten > with raw herbs and vinegar; and if you have plenty, > they should be well cleaned, washed in hot water, > and put to cook whole with a little water: and then > when they are cooked, add salt and oil, and stir it up > thick without water, and put olive oil on in Lent." I had forgotten that one. It does make the point about B. oleracea that all of the varietals are only different physical manifestations of the same plant. Bear From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 23:44:19 -0400 (EDT) To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] broccoli and cauliflower > After digging through this, I'm even more convinced that period "broccoli" > and "cole-flowers" were so different from what's now found in groceries > that it would be misleading to claim that either broccoli or cauliflower is > period. Parkinson, 1629: "The Cole flower is a kinde of Coleworte, whose leaves are large, and like the Cabbage leaves, but somewhat smaller, and endented about the edges, in the middel wehereof, sometimes in the beginning of Autumne, and sometimes much sooner, there appeareth a hard head of whitish yellow tufts of floers, closely thrust together, but never open, nor spreading much with us, when then is fittest to be used, the greeen leaves being cut away close to the head; this hath a much pleasanter taste then eyther the Coleworte, or Cabbage of any kinde, and is therefore of the more regard and respect at good mens tables." The accompanying woodcut is quite clearly a small cauliflower. Gerard's _Herbal_ (1597, though poss. 1633, but not marked as a Johnson addition): "Cole flore, or after some Colieflore, hath many large leaves sleightly indented about the edges, of a whiteish greene colour, narrower and sharper pointed than Cabbage; in the middlest of which riseth up a great white head of hard floures closely thrust together, with a root full of stringes, in other parts like to the coleworts." (Again, the woodcut is quite recognizeably cauliflower.) -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:32:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Louise Smithson To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: Contribution to SCA-potluck I have to confess to bringing the brussel sprouts in a pipkin. There is no true redaction for this recipe yet just a rough guide based on what I did at Pennsic in 20 minutes before the potluck. Original recipe taken from Libro Del Coch (14/15th C Italian). If you want to make cabbage sprouts, take the cabbage sprouts rounded and do them to cook a while; when the are a little boiled take them from (the fire) and pour well away the water, and then fry them much and fat, and then take verjuice, parsley and water, and spices and salt, temper these all together and put above (the sprouts) and let them well boil. Then take a little of marjoram and temper with water, and put it above and it will be good. What I had: 1 lb bag frozen brussel sprouts, dropped in cast iron pan (they were still frozen at this point) on stove with a big splash of olive oil and fried until lightly browned in places. Meanwhile I was mashing a handful of parsley with a good pinch of salt and easily 1/2 teaspoon of spice mixture (cinnamon, ginger, sugar, black pepper), about 2 tablespoons of verjuice and maybe 10 or so of water. Once everything had been rendered paste like I threw it on the sprouts, added a little more water so that they were just covered, reduced the heat and cooked it some more. I then tasted one, added some more salt and spices and a little bit more verjuice (another tablespoon or two). I let the sauce mostly reduce until the brussels were hot and starting to become tender. Helewyse de Birkestad Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:56:56 -0500 From: "Phil Troy/ G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for Crab recipes To: Cooks within the SCA Recipe 6 in The Forme of Cury, Caboches in potage: Take caboches and quarter hem, and seeth hem in gode broth with oynouns ymynced and the whyte of lekes yslyt and ycorue smale. And do (th)erto safroun & salt, and force it with powdour douce. As I recall we used a generic sort of vegetable stock base, so non-meat-eaters would have access. We could have used almond milk, but there were other almond dishes on the menu so I wanted to avoid that. Since this is intended as a pottage, you sort of have to assume that either the cabbages are cut small, or cooked until spoonable. I opted for quartering the cabbages, parboiling them in just barely enough broth to cover them, with the minced onion and chopped leeks, removing the cabbages from the pot, and letting the rest cook down while we chopped the cabbages smaller. We then returned them to the pot with the saffron, cooked them a little longer to meld the flavors, seasoned with salt, and dished up the pottage (which ended up like a thick soup or stew of vegetables, with a smallish amount of liquid). Sprinkled the powder douce (which, depending on who you talk to, is a premade mixture of sweet spices, or whatever sweet spices you have powdered at the moment). Some recipes simply call for sprinkling on sweet spices. We used ginger, cinnamon, and cloves, plus the oh-so-controversial fennel powder. Most people seemed to like it, and almost none came back, except for one tableful of licorice-hating malcontent troublemakers, who sent their bowl (somewhat diminished, it looked like) back to the kitchen. People these days. Tsk tsk. Adamantius Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:26:48 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] semi-topical: Good Friday dinner? To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Friday i cooked two Lenten recipes from a 14th century cookbook from Cairo, The Book of the Description of Familiar Foods (translated by Charles Perry and published in "Medieval Arab Cookery"), and a pot of rice, for the Wooden Spoon -- the West Kingdom cooking competition -- at March Crown which was this weekend. I was planning to enter the recipes for Maghmuma (with the rice) and "How to Flavor Cabbage" separately, but i thought they went well together and it turned out that two other people entered whole meals, so i felt better about submitting everything as one entry. In the end there was a tie - thus two winners - a baking Laurel, Wulfric of Creigull, and me :-) He made, err, i forget the exact name, but it's Fake Bacon of layers of white and saunders-colored almond paste. My recipes are below. My computer printer died and i haven't replaced it yet, so my documentation was hand-written. One page explained why these were 14th C. Egyptian Lenten dishes, a second page on the Maghmuma, a third on why it was ok to substitute soy sauce for murri, and the fourth on the cabbage. The Minister of the Wooden Spoon took our documentation with her, so i can't replicate what i wrote, but i did annotate my working recipes and type them into the computer as things were cooking, so i'd know what i did. Maghmuma p. 447, Medieval Arab Cookery ----- How to Flavor Cabbage p. 445, Medieval Arab Cookery Take walnuts, blanched almonds, toasted hazelnuts. Pound everything, then take caraway, which you toast and pound fine, and with it a little thyme and garlic seed. Then you perfume the cabbage with good oil. Then you take a little bit of vinegar, dissolve the walnuts and ingredients with it. Then you throw on a sufficiency of tahineh and let there be a little Syrian cheese with it. Add the spices to them and arrange them and then [you throw the rest of the ingredients on the bowl. Then] throw in the first spice, enough to perfume their taste and aroma. It is not eaten until the next day. [passage in square brackets omitted in one copy of the text] My Recipe 1/3 cup walnuts 1/3 cup blanched almonds 1/3 cup toasted hazelnuts 1 tsp. caraway, toast and pound fine 1/2 tsp. "garlic seed"/nigella 1 tsp. fresh thyme leaves pulled from their stems 1/2 medium-small cabbage, shredded coarsely 3 TB. cold-pressed sesame oil 1/2 cup white wine vinegar 2 TB tahini 1/2 tsp. salt, instead of "Syrian cheese" There were some passages i found confusing to interpret, but here's what i did. Comments welcome. Blanch almonds: Bring water to a boil, put in almonds, bring back to a boil, turn off fire, let cool a little, pour out hot water, run in cold water, pour out water, squeeze nuts out of skins, and discard skins. Toast hazelnuts: pre-heat oven to 350 degree F., bake hazelnuts for about 15 min., cool slightly, rub between hands to remove skins, and discard skins. Grind walnuts, almonds, and hazelnuts together medium-coarsely. Toast caraway seeds in an oil-free pan, stirring constantly until aromatic - do not let burn. Cool somewhat, then grind. Grind nigella. Mix caraway and nigella with fresh thyme leaves. Cooked the cabbage in the oil until just barely tender. Mix the nuts, spices, and salt with vinegar. Stir in tahini. Toss with the cabbage. Serve the next day. NOTES: 1.) Perry speculates that the "garlic seed" called for in the recipe was nigella, which is sometimes known as "black onion seed", also called kalonji, so this is what i used. 2.) What was meant by "Perfume the cabbage with good oil" was unclear. I cooked the cabbage in the oil until just barely tender, because it seemed to me that similar directions in other recipes included cooking. I intended to make a raw version for comparison, but haven't gotten around to it yet 3.) This was surprisingly good and i'm not a cabbage fan. At least one judge commented on its tastiness. -- Urtatim, formerly Anahita Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:41:56 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] semi-topical: Good Friday dinner? To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Mordonna wrote: > The cabbage sounds wonderful. You know how they say "sweets to the sweet"? Well, i like nuts, which is why i made the cabbage - THREE kinds of nuts PLUS tahini - mmm-mmm-mmm. > Why salt instead of "Syrian Cheese"? Lent, therefore no dairy. The author mentioned that any recipe could be adapted for Lent, using vegetables and no meat, and there's mention of substituting processed nuts instead of milk or yogurt. I mentioned this in my documentation. So i figured making this recipe without the cheese was allowable. And since cheese tends to be salty, and there's no salt specified elsewhere in the recipe, i added salt. > When I read the original, I thought the addition of cheese to this > recipe was Not A Good Thing. I suspect, but don't really know, that using cheese might do more than just add flavor and texture. The cheesy beasties might "process" the cabbage a bit when left overnight in a warm climate. Anyone here know if lactic acid fermentation has any effect in a period of 24 hours or so? > What is "Syrian Cheese"? I don't really know. If it had to come all the way to Cairo from Syria in the 14th century, i would guess it could either be aged or packed in brine like feta. If it were made by a Syrian community in Cairo or Cairene cheese makers trained to make Syrian cheese, i suppose it could be different. But i don't know much about modern Near Eastern cheeses, let alone 14th C. cheeses. I've seen all sorts of Levantine and Persian processed and even some aged dairy products in my local Middle Eastern markets (including kashk), but i don't recall actual cheese. I suppose it's even possible that what is being called for is one of these, like, oh, say, lebneh, instead of a European style cheese. Johnnae was kind enough to send me a copy of Charles Perry's article about Sicilian cheese, which he figured was a hard aged cheese, but, well, Sicily and Syria are not the same place :-) The chapter with the Lenten food in the Book of the Description of Familiar Foods also had dishes for the sick, and while some of the recipes are clearly for one or the other, i was uncertain about others. They weren't all in a clear order. And there were some helpful cooking tips mixed in, such as not overcooking vegetables "to rags" and about adding some natron, a type of salt, to keep green vegetables from turning yellow as they cook - just like the suggestion to add baking soda to vegetables when boiling them that i am familiar with from the 20th century. -- Urtatim, formerly Anahita Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 22:48:09 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Brussels sprouts was Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 29, Issue 12 To: "Cooks within the SCA" The earliest reference to brussels sprouts I know of is in Dodoens Cruydeboek of 1554. To my knowledge there are no recipes specifically for brussels sprouts in period, although there are a couple of recipe references which might be stretched to cover. Bear > Might anyone have a GOOD, period recipe for Brussel Sprouts? > > HL Elisabeth de Calais Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 08:54:49 +0200 From: Volker Bach Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 29, Issue 12 To: Cooks within the SCA Am Freitag, 7. Oktober 2005 01:08 schrieb LdyCalais at aol.com: > Might anyone have a GOOD, period recipe for Brussel Sprouts? I would, > very much, appreciate any and all ideas! I don't know whether any Brussels Sprouts have been identified in period (I read their origin is usually placed between the 16th and 18th century, depending on who you ask), but there is one recipe in Pleyn Delit that prepares 'small cabbage shoots' (interpreted by the authors as close to Brussels Sprouts, though not the same thing) like a salad, with herbs and vinegar. The 'Liber de Coquina' speak of 'delicate (small) cabbages for Lords' that are to be made with egg white and fennel, but does not elaborate further. My first guess would be either thickened with egg, or baked. Giano Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 12:32:31 -0400 From: Cindy Renfrow Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Brussels sprouts was Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 29, Issue 12 To: Cooks within the SCA On Oct 6, 2005, at 11:48 PM, Terry Decker wrote: > The earliest reference to brussels sprouts I know of is in Dodoens > Cruydeboek of 1554. To my knowledge there are no recipes specifically > for brussels sprouts in period, although there are a couple of recipe > references which might be stretched to cover. > > Bear Please allow me to push that date back to 1393. The following is from Le Menagier de Paris, Power's translation, page 255: "Cabbage hearts at the end of the vintage. And when the heart of the cabbage, which is in the midst, is plucked off, you pull up the stump of the cabbage and replant it in fresh earth, and there will come forth from it big spreading leaves; and the cabbage takes a great deal of room and these cabbage hearts be called Roman cabbages and they be eaten in winter; and when the stumps be replanted, there grow out of them little cabbages which be called sprouts and which be eaten with raw herbs in vinegar; and if you have plenty, they are good with the outer leaves removed and then washed in warm water and cooked whole in a little water; and then when they be cooked add salt and oil and serve them very thick, without water, and put olive oil over them in Lent Cindy Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 18:14:04 -0400 From: Cindy Renfrow Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Brussels sprouts was Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 29, Issue 12 To: Cooks within the SCA On Oct 7, 2005, at 1:15 PM, wrote: > So, if you are to use olive oil in Lent, what sort of oil are they calling > for the rest of the time? Could it be interpreted as an animal-based oil > such as bacon grease or butter? No. No oil at all. Use only "greasy pot-water of beef and mutton but in no wise that of pork, which is only good for leeks." Le Menagier tends to write in a very stream of consciousness style, so his directions are rather confused. He speaks of preparing all sorts of cabbages higgledy-piggledy in the same paragraph. Basically, tough cabbage leaves and hearts are to be cooked for a very very long time with meat broth and/or water until they're nothing but mush. Then the whole mess is served with greasy pot-water and thickened with bread crumbs. Sprouts, however, are not cooked to mush; but I imagine he means for us to serve them with thickened broth too. Other options include cooking cabbage in water on fish days & serving them with oil and salt. Or some thicken the mixture with oatmeal instead of bread, or use butter instead of oil. Another option: "On a meat day you may put therewith pigeons, sausages and hare, coots and plenty of bacon." The Pichon is here: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/menagier/menagier6.html Cindy Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 12:37:19 -0600 From: Mary Morman Subject: [Sca-cooks] brussels sprouts To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Much as i hate to disagree with bear, i think that this reference from Le Menagier is clearly for brussels sprouts. here's how our cooks guild does it. "CABBAGES be of five sorts; the best are those that have been touched with frost and they are tender and soon cooked; and in frosty weather they must not be parboiled, but in rainy weather they must. White cabbages come at the end of August. Cabbage hearts at the end of the grape harvest. And when the heart of the cabbage, which is in the midst, is plucked off, you pull up the stump of the cabbage and replant it in fresh earth, and there will come forth from it big spreading leaves; and the cabbage takes a great deal of room and these cabbage hearts be called Roman cabbages and they are eaten in winter; and when the stumps are replanted, there grow out of them little cabbages which are called sprouts and which are eaten with raw herbs and vinegar; and if you have plenty, they are good with the outer leaves removed and then washed in warm water and cooked whole in a little water; and then when they are cooked add salt and oil and serve them very thick, without water, and put olive oil over them in Lent." Redaction by Lady Branwyn ni Ceallaigh Serves 12-15 people (usually enough for two tables) 1/2 cup white wine vinegar 2 Tablespoons olive oil 1/4 cup chopped onion 1 clove garlic, minced 2 Tablespoons honey 3 Tablespoons celery leaves 1/2 teaspoon dried tarragon 1 Tablespoons parsley 1 teaspoon salt pepper 1 lb. brussels sprouts Place all ingredients in a sauce pan, heat to boiling. Simmer, covered, until tender and place in a covered container in the refrigerator overnight. Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:38:40 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Brussels sprouts was Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 29, Issue 12 To: "Cooks within the SCA" While this sounds like brussels sprouts, is it? Has anyone experimented with Menagier's instructions to see what happens? Since all forms of cabbage are variants of Brassica oleracea and grow from seed is this really brussels sprouts (B. oleracea v. gemmifera) or is it a sprout of another variant that can be prepared as brussels sprouts are? Brussels sprouts are believed to be a mutation of B. oleracea capitata L. sabuda (savoy cabbage) and are true breeding, so I have my doubts about Menagier producing brussels sprouts by this method. Bear ----- Original Message ----- Please allow me to push that date back to 1393. The following is from Le Menagier de Paris, Power's translation, page 255: "Cabbage hearts at the end of the vintage. And when the heart of the cabbage, which is in the midst, is plucked off, you pull up the stump of the cabbage and replant it in fresh earth, and there will come forth from it big spreading leaves; and the cabbage takes a great deal of room and these cabbage hearts be called Roman cabbages and they be eaten in winter; and when the stumps be replanted, there grow out of them little cabbages which be called sprouts and which be eaten with raw herbs in vinegar; and if you have plenty, they are good with the outer leaves removed and then washed in warm water and cooked whole in a little water; and then when they be cooked add salt and oil and serve them very thick, without water, and put olive oil over them in Lent Cindy Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:37:58 -0400 From: Cindy Renfrow Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Brussels sprouts was Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 29, Issue 12 To: Cooks within the SCA I was wondering when you'd say that, Bear. ;-) He's describing replanting the stem once the main head/leaves have been harvested in order to coax the axillary buds of B. oleracea to grow. And yes, I think his experiment will work, though I haven't tried it. I think it requires a mild climate. http://food.oregonstate.edu/faq/uffva/brussels2.html says: "Dalechamp, 1587, described how early cabbage, after the true head is removed, will frequently develop small cabbages in the leaf axils and gave this form the name B. capitata polycephalos." > or is it a sprout of another variant that can be prepared as brussels > sprouts are? It is a sprout of whatever variety of B. oleracea he was using that can be prepared in the same manner as brussels sprouts, yes. > Brussels sprouts are believed to be a mutation of B. oleracea capitata L. sabuda (savoy cabbage) and are true breeding, I know I'm going to get pounced on here, but could not one also say that the mutant was originally selected merely for its growth habit of producing many more of the desirable sprouts per stalk than the mother plant, but that the mutation was otherwise identical to the mother? The only difference being their growth habit, not their flavor? Cindy Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 22:35:51 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Brussels sprouts was Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 29, Issue 12 To: "Cooks within the SCA" No pouncing, because I think the entire question worth serious consideration. We know that cabbage sprouts were eaten and that carving the head and replanting the stem may cause small cabbages to develop in the leaf axils (where the leaves join the stem). This is a manipulation which produces a cabbage stalk which is similar to brussels sprouts, but is not. If such a manipulation could produce a cabbage that would reproduce from seed, then that would be an acquired trait and Lamarckian evolution would be the in thing. Because Menagier is talking manipulation rather than growth from seed, I tend to think his cabbage sprouts were not brussels sprouts. Most head cabbages are close to the ground, so the stem is short. Brussels sprouts have a long stem with a leafy top. The original mutation was probably axils that produced sprouts rather than leaves and a slightly elongated stalk. Such a cabbage would likely be bred to produce a lighter head and a longer stalk to increase the yield. Since there is no evidence, I may be very wrong in my opinion. Just for fun, here is a sight with both a period illustration and a photograph of B. oleracea v. gemmifera. http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/schaugarten/vargemmifera/ Br_Sprout.html Bear ----- Original Message ----- I was wondering when you'd say that, Bear. ;-) Cindy Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:30:00 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: [Sca-cooks] Brussels sprouts To: Cooks within the SCA Just to add to the discussion, food historian Jane Grigson mentions that "they are something of a mystery vegetable. It seems they were being grown around Brussels in Middle Ages; market regulations of 1213 mention them. They were ordered for two wedding feasts of the Burgundian court at Lille in the 15th century." See Jane Grigson's Vegetable Book. Davidson seems to discount this in The Oxford Companion to Food, but he does say that one may sometimes induce sprouts to form from cabbage stems by cutting off the tops. Harold McGee says they may have been developed in the 14th century but the very clear evidence only dates to the 18th century. p. 323 On Food and Cooking. William Woys Weaver in Heirloom Vegetable Gardening says brussels sprouts did not appear until 1785! http://www.uga.edu/vegetable/brusselsprouts.html#crophistory lists some material on them. History wise-- Brussel sprouts, Brassica oleracea var gemmifera, are known to be native to cool regions in northern Europe. They were a popular vegetable crop in Belgium during the sixteenth century from which they were spread to the surrounding countries throughout temperate Europe. French settlers in Louisiana extensively cultivated brussel sprouts for its continuous production of miniature cabbages throughout the growing season. The origin of Brasssica oleracea var gemmifera is thought to be the result of a mutation from the savoy cabbage, Brassica olearcea capitata L. sabuda subgroup. Two main types of brussel sprouts have arisen: the tall variety, standing 2 to 4 feet tall, and the short variety, growing to a maximum height of 2 feet. The preferred size of the sprouts varies with Europeans opting for sprouts ½ inch in diameter, while Americans prefer sprouts 1 to 2 inches in diameter. -------------------------------- Most sources on the internet stick with that late 16th or 17th century dates. As to their breeding, I am wondering if this all has something to do with them being biennial. The first year one gets head cabbages; the second year they get sprouts growing on the stems. (maybe only sometimes). Or as described here: "After a head of common cabbage is cut from the plant, numerous tiny heads often will grow from the remaining stem in much the same manner as in brussels sprouts." http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/plantanswers/publications/ vegetabletravelers/kohlrabi.html So did Le Menagier end up with a percursor of what we now call Brussel Sprouts? Probably he could have. My thought is that if one wanted to make this recipe, the best modern substitute would be an heirloom brussel sprout. Or you could spend two years attempting to grow cabbages and then in the second year sprouting cabbages off the stems. What bothers me now is that I thought we had pictures showing them growing in gardens from earlier dates. I shall keep looking for those. Johnnae Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 07:52:46 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Brussels sprouts To: "Cooks within the SCA" > As to their breeding, I am wondering if this all has something to do > with them being biennial. > The furst year one gets head cabbages; the second year they get sprouts growing on > the stems. (maybe only sometimes). Or as described here: > "After a head of common cabbage is cut from the plant, numerous tiny heads > often will grow from the remaining stem in much the same manner as in > brussels sprouts." For brussels sprouts, sprouts appear in the first year, the seed head in the second. Completely the opposite of "remove the head, get sprouts." > http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/plantanswers/publications/ > vegetabletravelers/kohlrabi.html > > So did Le Menagier end up with a percursor of what we now call Brussel Sprouts? > Probably he could have. My thought is that if one wanted to make this > recipe, the best modern > substitute would be an heirloom brussel sprout. Or you could spend two years > attempting to grow cabbages and then in the second year sprouting > cabbages off the stems. If Menagier had brussels sprouts, he would have had the sprouts and no need to describe the process of producing them. If vague memory serves, you can get sprouts from any of the head cabbages under certain conditions. B. oleracea v. gemmifera just takes the hassle out of producing sprouts, which is probably why the initial mutation survived and flourished. > What bothers me now is that I thought we had pictures showing them growing > in gardens from earlier dates. I shall keep looking for those. > > Johnnae I don't recall any pictures of brussels sprouts, but that doesn't mean much. I keep finding things I missed or misinterpreted (like the large olive I thought was a small avocado until I got look at a better reproduction of the painting). Guess I'll have to keep looking too. Bear Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 12:27:07 -0400 From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Brussels sprouts To: Cooks within the SCA > If vague memory serves, you can get sprouts from any of the head cabbages > under certain conditions. B. oleracea v. gemmifera just takes the hassle > out of producing sprouts, which is probably why the initial mutation > survived and flourished. I guess the point is that if this mutation simply skips the large head phase, I'm not sure that there is a meaningful difference between baby cabbage sprouts grown this way and brussels sprouts. I seem to remember from my childhood my mother occasionally cutting off the main cabbage stalk and harvesting the smaller cabbages along with her brussels sprouts. I don't remember them tasting any different, but then I was in the stage of development where I didn't like cabbage-type foods (thank goodness that went away!) -- -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:44:16 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Brussels sprouts To: , "Cooks within the SCA" There may be no practical difference from a culinary point, but I think you will find brussels sprouts produce more sprouts and last later in the season than regular head cabbage. In the case of brussels sprouts, a seed head does form at the top of the stalk but will not flower and go to seed until after a cold season, a process known as vernalization. It goes to seed in the second year. Bear > I guess the point is that if this mutation simply skips the large head > phase, I'm not sure that there is a meaningful difference between baby > cabbage sprouts grown this way and brussels sprouts. > -- > -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:16:41 -0800 (PST) From: Carole Smith Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] math time reply and brussel sprouts To: Cooks within the SCA Several years ago Euriol of Lothian served brussels at a feast and people begged for more. She steamed the sprouts, tossed them in olive oil and Italian herbs, and served them hot. I think the recipe may have come from Apicius, but don't remember for sure. I've been making them this way ever since. Cordelia Toser Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 18:22:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] back to food by request :) To: dailleurs at liripipe.com, Cooks within the SCA --- Anne-Marie Rousseau wrote: > ok, so I have a bunch of folks coming over and our recent CSA > basket gave me a yummy cauliflower. > > anybody have a favorite collie gratin recipe? I have this vision of > a creamy sauce > with some sort of crunchy savory (parmasean/bread crumbs?) topping. > > any ideas? I know its not medieval but there's an amazing brain > trust here... > > --Anne-Marie, who could fall back on the elizabethan collies with > egg lemon sauce if need be.... Not Medieval? I believe you are mixing this up with another vegetable. Cauliflower was introduced into Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. There are two different camps who argue about the origins: one says the Near East, the other says Cyprus. But it is a period vegetable for Medieval Europe. My favorite recipe is from John Murrell, "A Booke of Cookerie", which is slightly out of period [1621]. How to butter a colleflowre. Take a ripe Colle-flowre and cut off the buddes, boyle then in milke with a little Mace while they be very tender, then poure them into a Cullender, and let the Milke runne cleane from them, then take a ladle full of Creame, being boyled with a little whole Mace, putting to it a Ladlefull of thicke butter, mingle them together with a little Sugar, dish up your flowres upon sippets, poure your butter and cream hot upon it strowing with a little slicst Nutmeg and salt, and serve it to the Table hot. My redaction: 1 cauliflower, at least 5 inches in diameter 3 cups of whole milk 1 large piece of whole mace 1 cup cream 1 stick unsalted butter [if using salted butter, eliminate the salt] 1 large piece of whole mace [different from above] 1 tsp sugar 1/8 tsp salt 1/8 tsp nutmeg 4 slices hot buttered toast, cut into triangles. Cut cauliflower into small florets and remove any green leaves and the thick base. Heat the milk with mace to just below the boiling point and add the florets. Lower the heat to simmer and cook until tender but still crisp, about 12 to 15 min. While that is cooking, take the cream, butter, another piece of whole mace and sugar and bring to just below boiling. Arrange the toast on a heated serving dish. Remove the cauliflower from the milk and arrange them on the toast. Pour the sauce over them and sprinkle them with salt and nutmeg and serve hot. Huette Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 22:39:46 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lardo, prosciutto blanco To: Cooks within the SCA And lest anyone think there wouldn't be a medieval recipe calling for it-- /This is an excerpt from *Libre del Coch*, R. Carroll-Mann (trans.). The original source can be found on Mark S. Harris' website ./ 121. Fleshy Leaves of Cabbages. You will take the fleshy leaves of cabbages which are clean and set them to cook with good fatty broth; and take pork grease or lardo, which is melted bacon; and take two onions and cut them in the fashion of a cross, and set them to cook with the fleshy leaves of the cabbages; and when the cabbages begin to fall apart, turn them with a haravillo until they turn yellow, and they shall be thoroughly mushy and they will be thick. Then remove them from the fire, and let them rest before preparing dishes. http://www.medievalcookery.com Johnnae I've noticed all the conversations about pigs and chorizo. > I thought people might like the following out of > from Bill Buford's new volume entitled Heat. > Batali....arrived bearing his own quince-flavored grappa ...; > a jar of homemade nocino ...; an armful of wine; > and a white, dense slab of lardo?literally, the raw ?lardy? > back of a very fat pig, one he?d cured himself with herbs and salt. . Johnnae Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 21:07:11 -0500 From: "Carol Smith" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The 50th annual SCA-Cooks Thanksgiving list! To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Here's a recipe I find pretty good: Small Caboges Goodman of Paris, p. 255, Cariadoc’s cookbook compiliation Little cabbages which be called sprouts and which be eaten with raw herbs in vinegar; and if you have plenty, they are good with the outer leaves removed and then cooked in a little water; and when they be cooked add salt and oil and serve them very thick, without water, and put olive oil on them in Lent. Brussels Sprouts 1 – 10 oz package, frozen or fresh Vinegar (Cider vinegar) 2 Tbsp Olive Oil 1 Tbsp Nutmeg pinch Dill 1/4 tsp (1/2 tsp fresh) Ground mustard 1/2 tsp Savory 1/4 tsp (1/2 tsp fresh) Cook prepared sprouts until done (steam, if possible) and drain. Add remaining ingredients and mix well. Serve hot. Brekke Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 07:07:20 -0700 From: edoard at medievalcookery.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] possible-or not-oop question To: "Cooks within the SCA" The closest (late) medieval recipe I'm aware of is this one for stuffed cabbage: To make a stuffed cabbage. Take a red cabbage that is not too large, & put it to boil whole sweetly, & leave it so a long time that you can open the leaves the one behind the other, while the leaves of the cabbage are large like a fist, cut that out, & put chopped meat therein that it will be arrayed like the other meats with eggs & spices, & then layer the cabbage with the leaves all around, that it will be well bound, & put it to cook, sausages with, or that which you want. [Ouverture de Cuisine, France, 1604] Avelyn Grene has her version of the recipe online at http://greneboke.com/recipes/stuffed_cabbage.shtml - Doc Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 07:49:47 -0700 From: edoard at medievalcookery.com To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Il famoso convito 1561 -------- Original Message -------- From: emilio szabo One of the books before 1600 is this one: Il famoso convito : cosi delle giostre come del banchetto, che lo illustrissimo & eccel. s. duca di Piacenza, & di Parma, ha fatto della mag. citt? di Piacenza nello anno M.D.LXI Starting on from image 18, there is a description of a "honoratissima cena", which includes lists of the food. ----------------- Woah! Something caught my eye on this. Take a look at the page at the URL below: http://www.archive.org/stream/ilfamosoconvitoc00inmi#page/n18/mode/1up At the top of the page, first column, the first two entries are "Broccoli" and "Fiore di cauoli", which I assume are broccoli and cauliflower. It's nice to see them listed separately in a book printed in 1561, especially considering how recently the myth was going around on the internet that broccoli was invented in the 1700s by ancestors of Albert Broccoli (producer of the Bond films). This is one of the earliest references I've seen to broccoli. Thanks for posting the link. - Doc Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:42:30 -0700 From: edoard at medievalcookery.com To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Buttered wortes <<< Has anyone ever tried putting oatmeal in this recipe just to see what dreadful consequences arise (well, probably it just tastes disgusting)? >>> I always found the "make sure you don't get any oatmeal in it" note in these recipes to be amusingly odd. I did find this one though that does call for oatmeal. From Koge Bog (Denmark, 1616): VI - To cook cabbage. There is no need to write much about it, every farmer's wife knows how. And often at a farmer's you will taste a better cabbage than in the noble's kitchen. However this is how a cabbage is cooked: Put water and oats on the fire with a red onion or two finely chopped. Let it seethe until it is nice and smooth. Chop the cabbage finely, the finer the better it will be. When the sauce is smooth then put the cabbage into it and let it seethe until it is soft. Then put butter in: but if you want it with lard then grind the lard finely first and let it seethe with the oats. Haven't tried it out yet. Doc Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:42:15 +0100 (BST) From: Volker Bach To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] whole stuffed cabbage --- Sharon Palmer schrieb am Mo, 11.4.2011: <<< I'm trying to find a period German recipe that I read once. A whole cabbage, cooked until the leaves were a little soft, then the space between each leaf stuffed with chicken, the whole shaped back into a cabbage and cooked. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Ranvaig >>> I know that one. It comes up in a couple of cookbooks, including Staindl, Philippine Welserin and IIRC Rumpoldt (certainly Staindl). I've transcribed it for my upcoming Landsknecht's Cookbook. Let me see if copy & paste works on my old laptop... Machs also / Nim scho:ene herdte gebel / schnei ain brayts pla:ettel bey dem stengel herab / und ho:el die gebel inwendig au? / das die gebel darnach gantz beleyb/ Nyme dan ain La:emern / Ka:elbern / oder ain Schweynes bra:et / das nit allt ist / flaysch / das hack gar klain / nam ain fay?te darunder / das mu:o? nit zu:o klain gehackt sein / Schlahe ayer daran / thu:o weinbeerlin darein / und f?ls ins krawt / unnd thu:o das bla:ettlin wider auffs gebel / unnd steck zweck darein / ?ber brenns wol / wie sonst ain krawt / seychs dann ab / und ge?? erst ain Schweynene suppen daran / und se?ds fein ab / schaw das nit anbun / So du es anrichst / so se?d ain rawm der gesa:ewrt sey / unnd schneyd die gebel auff die sch?ssel / so sihet man die f?ll in dem krawt / Etlich machen ain eingeru:erts von ayren / mit weinbeerlin / f?llens inn das krawt. Make it thus: Take nice, hard heads, cut away a broad slice near the stalk, and hollow the head out from the inside so that it stays whole. Then take roasting meat of lamb, veal or pork that is not old, chop it quite small, mix fat with it that must not be cut too small, break eggs into it, add raisins, and fill it into the cabbage head. Then put the slice back in place, fasten it with wooden skewers, boil it well, like you would other cabbage, then pour off (the water), pour pork broth with it, and cook it well. See that it does not burn. When you serve it, boil cream that is sour and cut the head in the bowl so you can see the filling inside the cabbage. Many also make scrambled eggs with raisins and fill that into the cabbage. (Staindl #221) Looks like it did. This what you were looking for? Giano Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:48:19 -0700 (PDT) From: wheezul at canby.com To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] whole stuffed cabbage Anna Wecker's recipe (page 164) is made a similar way, but the filling is of eggs, cabbage or spinach, large raisins, small raisins, sweet spices, cut almonds, saffron, salt and finished with hot fat.  The sauces: meat stock with ginger or optional wine vinegar, bread crumbs, lemon juice. Seems to me I read this chicken based one somewhere too. Katherine <<< I'm trying to find a period German recipe that I read once.  A whole cabbage, cooked until the leaves were a little soft, then the space between each leaf stuffed with chicken, the whole shaped back into a cabbage and cooked. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Ranvaig >>> Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:05:56 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] what is silverbeet? <<< OED lists it as "n. Austral. and N.Z. the seakale beet, Beta vulgaris; = chard" >>> Let me point out that seakale beet is NOT kale, which is a leafy cabbage. Ranvaig ---------- There is a visual simularity between the leaves of the sea beet (Beta vulgaris var. maritima) and the leaves of sea kale (Crambe maritima).  Sea beet believed to be the wild ancestor of the beets including chard, while sea kale is believed to be the ancestor of the genus Brassica, the cabbages. As Ranvaig points out, the plants are not the same, but the similarity of the leaves probably had them all termed generally as cabbage, col or kal in Middle English. Bear