beans-msg - 6/9/00 Medieval beans. Fava beans. Garbanzo beans. Recipes. NOTE: See also the files: peas-msg, vegetables-msg, vegetarian-msg, salads-msg, seeds-msg, soup-msg, grains-msg, bread-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with seperate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the orignator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: Lord Stefan li Rous mark.s.harris@motorola.com stefan@florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From Jeff.Peck@hubert.rain.comMon Feb 26 12:21:04 1996 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 01:23:00 -0800 From: Jeff Peck To: antir@mail.orst.edu Subject: Re: Hummos recipe I have found in the past that if you use dried beans , and soak overnight in water with 1tbs of baking soda (rinse before cooking) it takes away a LARGE portion of the gassiness . Lyulf Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 18:06:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine deSteele To: sca-arts@raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Beans are period...sort of. Based on our research, there were a couple of period beans - fava beans, which were known in Roman times and are still eaten in the Meditteranean today. The other period bean was a now-extinct version of the broad bean - you can substitute the Italian broad bean for it. Be careful serving fava beans - some people have adverse reactions to it. They also consumed the pods of fenugreek, known in period as "greek hay", and still used extensively in Meditteranean and Afghani cooking today. Vewgetarianism in the Middle Ages was a risky practice - few beans or legumes, no corn, so options for protein were seriously limited - mainly nuts, eggs, and dairy products. With lack of refrigeration, not a good lifestyle choice...then. Catherine deSteele From: nweders@mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:29:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: SC - Mediterranean Feast I grew them as a project this year to see how they would do in our somewhat warm and humid climate (Central Ansteorra) but got them into the ground late for a heavy crop. They are still producing so I will have a small but hearty seed crop for next year, since I started with just a few. There is not as much information on growing them as regular dry beans or green beans. Most of what I found were British publications. They are a very pretty plant -- the flowers are white and purplish black. I have a couple of catalogs at home that sell seeds if you want to try them. Taste wise the dry beans have a floury texture, I like. There are several Roman recipes featuring favas that are very good so you might check them out. You can get fava beans at health food stores as well as specialty and eastern markets. Clare St. John From: Uduido@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:21:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC - Fava Beans In a message dated 97-06-03 19:17:19 EDT, you write: << They are a very pretty plant -- the flowers are white and purplish black. I have a couple of catalogs at home that sell seeds if you want to try them. Taste wise the dry beans have a floury texture, I like. There are several Roman recipes featuring favas that are very good so you might check them out. You can get fava beans at health food stores as well as specialty and eastern markets. >> Fava beans are quite similar to lima beans in taste and texture only somewhat stronger. I would coution those of Mediterranean descent to be careful if you have not eaten these before. People of Mediterranean descent can have allergic reactions to these beans. It is not deadly but is extremely unpleasant. People of non-mediterranean descent are not known to have this reaction. Lord Ras From: david friedman Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes At 2:59 PM -0500 6/6/97, Peters, Rise J. wrote: >What other sorts of beans were available in Europe? (I don't guess I could >possibly be lucky enough that pinto beans were .... or any kind of "brown >beans"?) Fava beans, garbanzos, lentils. I don't think any of our standard beans--pinto, lima, kidney, etc.--are old world. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ From: david friedman Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes >There is a good recipe out of 700 Years of English Cooking. Since I don't >have it here and you need it now, I'll summarize and you can experiment if >you want to. Its Fried Beans and Onions. Saute onions in oil, add kidney >beans, ginger, cinnamon and another sweet spice. Heat. The onions, beans >and sweet spices make a tastey mix and the dish is good hot or cold. 1. Kidney beans are from the new world. 2. I don't know 700 years of English Cooking well enough to identify the recipe, but here are some somewhat similar things; the last of the three is the closest to what you describe. All three recipes are from the _Miscellany_, available online. Makke Form of Cury p. 41/A21 Take drawn beans and sethe them well. Take them up of the water and cast them in a mortar. Grind them all to doust till they be white as any milk, chawf a little red wine, cast thereamong in the grinding, do thereto salt, leshe it in dishes, then take onions and mince them small and sethe them in oil till they be all brown. And flourish the dish therewith. And serve it forth. 1 cup pea beans, dry 2 large onions 1/2 c red wine enough oil to fry the onions 1 t salt Soak the beans overnight then simmer 4-6 hours until tender. Chop up the onions fairly fine. Drain the beans, use a food processor to puree. Heat the wine and add it. Put the beans in each dish, put the fried onions over them. Broad beans (fava beans) would be more authentic than pea beans, but we have not yet tried them in this recipe. - ------ Fried Broad Beans Platina p. 115 (book 7) Put broad beans that have been cooked and softened into a frying pan with soft fat, onions, figs, sage, and several pot herbs, or else fry them well rubbed with oil and, on a wooden tablet or a flat surface, spread this into the form of a cake and sprinkle spices over it. 1 c dried fava beans 2/3 c figs (cut in pot herbs: 1 1/2 c spinach, packed 6-8 T lard about 8 pieces) 1 1/2 c parsley, packed 1/2 c+ onions 1/2 t sage 1 1/2 c mustard greens, packed 1/2 t salt 1 1/2 c turnip greens Spices for sprinkling on top: 1/4 t ginger, 1/2 t cinnamon, 1/4 t pepper Bring beans to a boil in 2 1/2 c water, leave to soak about 1/2 hour, then simmer another hour, until soft. Drain the beans, mix the whole mess together and fry it in the lard for 10 minutes, then serve it forth with spices sprinkled on it. This is also good with substantially less greens. - ------ Benes yfryed Curye on Inglysch p. 141 (Forme of Cury no. 189) Take benes and seeth hem almost til they bersten. Take and wryng out the water clene. Do =DDerto oynouns ysode and ymynced, and garlec therwith; frye hem in oile o=DDer in grece, & do =DDerto powdour douce, & serue it forth. 2 15 oz cans fava beans 3 T olive oil 1 small onion chopped poudre douce (2 t sugar, 3/8 t cinnamon, 3/8 t ginger) 3 cloves garlic (1 oz), smashed & minced Drain and wash the beans well, draining thoroughly. Chop onions, crush and mince garlic. Simmer onions and garlic in 1/2 c water for 3 minutes, drain. Heat the frying pan with oil on a medium heat, add onions and garlic and beans (will splatter--be careful), cook, stirring frequently, 10 minutes. Then add pouder douce, mix well, cook 2 more minutes, and serve. Remember to keep stirring. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ From: Uduido@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 16:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes << What is a pea bean? >> Acording to my currently limited resources pea beans are navy beans. It also says "have been grown in Europe and elsewhere since the discovery of America.". I would suspect that these were one of the 1st beans introduced to Europe after America's dicovery although I do not have verification of that hypothesis. Lord Ras (Uduido@aol.com) From: zarlor@acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 16:26:52 GMT Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes On Fri, 6 Jun 1997 2:59 PM -0500, Peters, Rise J wrote: >What other sorts of beans were available in Europe? (I don't guess I could >possibly be lucky enough that pinto beans were .... or any kind of "brown >beans"?) I believe it has already been mentioned that the beans known to have existed throughout most of out studied time period are fava, garbanzo and lentils. In the 16th century there are a few more that were added by import from the New World, so you'll have to decide when and where your recipe is used from. he best source I have on what was available in beans is (again) Castelvetro's "The Fruit, Herbs and Vegetables of Italy". Here he lists Broad Beans (or Fava/Faba), Turkish beans (these are not from Turkey, but Castelvetro terms them such to mean they are "foreign", mainly New World in origin) which are described as "white or flecked with pink and tan." They also "grow very tall" and " have [a]...lovely green foliage". The translator, Gillian Riley, proclaims in he glossary that these are Runner Beans, which we also call French Beans". He also lists another kind of bean, unnamed, that are "smaller, white or faintly pinkish with a black spot in the middle." Kind of like a black-eyed pea, apparently. Then he lists Dwarf Beans, which are he states are native or domestic to Italy and are sown in large quantities in wheat-fields after the harvest. "They do not grow high" and he states they eat "the cooked tender green pods as a salad, and do the same with the shelled fresh beans." Chickpeas are mentioned and are mentioned as being seen in white and red forms, the red being considered the better variety. Lentils are also mentioned and he proclaims them as "one of the most, if not the most, unhealthy vegetables one can eat, except for the broth, which, they say, is a miraculous drink for children with smallpox. In general lentils are only eaten by the lowest of the low." Those Italians sure have a way with words, eh? ;-) As a side note he also mentions peas (no further explanation as to any particular kind or description of pea) and the Grass Pea, or vetch, which, he says, tastes rather like Chickpeas. He dos state of theses that "they are considered a rather common food, for they generate wind, bad blood and considerable melancholy." Gillian Riley notes of Grass peas that the "grew wild in Italy and were eaten a lot by the Romans, but have fallen out of use, which is just as well, as they are poisonous, even after a preliminary roasting, which is no doubt why they were said to generate 'wind, bad blood and considerable melancholy'." Also of note is that Castelvetro discusses Lupin beans, but I do not know if this is an actual bean or not. He mainly talks about sweetening the bean by putting it in clear running water for 2 or 3 days. They are then "peeled and salted and nibbled more as a snack than anything else, the sort of thing that appeals to pregnant women or silly children. Dried lupins are used to fatten pigs and other animals." Gillian Riley states these have been grown in Italy and the Middle East since the times of the Romans. So runner beans could probably be used, at least after the mid-late 16th Century. I'm not sure what the black-eyed pea looking bean is. It could be a black-eyed pea, for all I know. (Not like I have this great horticultural knowledge, or anything. I know diddley about such things). Honos Servio, Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra (mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX) zarlor@acm.org Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:22:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Sharon L. Harrett" Subject: Re: SC - Green Beans On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Terry Nutter wrote: > Hi, Katerine here. Ceridwen quotes John Gerard on kidney beans. Sounds > interesting! I haven't tripped over any references to them in 13th to 15th > Century cuisine, but maybe I'm looking too early. Can you tell us what his > dates are? > > -- Katerine/Terry Hi Katerine, Geradrd's Herbal was first published in 1597, late for us but still within the realm of Renaissance cookery , by my standards anyway. I have the facsimile edition published by Dover, and have spent hours trying to figure out some of his sources and see if I can get any time frame as to the import or common use of the plants he describes. Those from the New World he usually specifies when and where they came from, but not always. There is an introductory chapter in which he describes many Herbals preceding this one, by date and author, but no indication if he quotes from these. I won't be so bold as to hold up this book as documentation for anything before the lifetime of Gerard,whose book was based on the Dodoens herbal of 1583, and was updated and revised by Thomas Johnson in 1633. I do not have to hand any horticultural encyclopedia which would tell me definitively whether the beans he refers to were actually favas, or kidney, or some other . I have seen mention in Le Menagier and a couple others of preparing beans in their "cods", though and deduce from that , that the people of the Late Middle Ages ate beans fresh from the plant at times, and not always ripe or dried. Though this does not allow me to assume those beans are the same as our "green beans", they may have been similar. My gardening experience and the seed catalogs I recieve lead me to believe that even what we know as "heirloom" vegetables, (open-pollinated, old varieties) cannot be traced back more than 75-100 years. Our modern varieties have been bred for tenderness, appearance, selective harvest times, tolerance to adverse weather, resistance to disease and insects, etc. For a definate answer I suppose we would have to look to archaeology, or plant historians. OOHHH!... Just looked in "medieval English Gardens" In a treatise on necessities for the country man, he says that one needs a small table on which to mince or cut up vegetables, including beans in the pod! (12th c)along with shelled beans, cabbage, leeks, onoins,lentils, peas, and millet. (Neckham) Hmmmmmmmm...... Comments, anyone? Ceridwen Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:33:47 -0500 From: gfrose@cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter) Subject: Re: SC - Another Novice Recipe Challenge Hi, Katerine here. Ah yes, beans. I've read lots of such recipes, but never made them. Here's what I'd try first out. >From the Forme of Cury, recipe # 189: >"Benes yfryed. Take benes and see6 hem almost til 6ey bersten. Take and >wryng out 6e water clene. Do 6erto oynouns ysode and ymynced, and garlec >6erwith; frye hem in oile o6er in grece, & do 6erto powder douce, & >serue it forth." My rendering into modern English: Fried Beans. Take beans and boil them until they are near bursting. Press out the water. Add boiled minced onions and garlic. Fry them in oil or grease, and add powder douce, and serve. Notes: "Beans" almost certainly mean dried favas. Onions are always boiled before using (at least parboiled) in medieval recipes, though why I couldn't tell you. It's not clear how the garlic is treated, but I don't know of any other recipes that don't either grind or mince it. Nobody knows for certain what precise spices went into powder douce, so I just pick favorite sweet ones. Nobody knows for sure whether it included sugar; it may have varied. Things that were boiled weren't necessarily boiled in water, and boiling the beans in broth might add flavor; but the recipe specifies to wring out *the water*, so I would be disinclined to do that in this case, even if I didn't like my first version. There's good reason to believe that salt was sometimes taken for granted, and we usually salt beans. But one can salt at the table, so at least the first time out, I'd make this without and see what I got. Here's what I'd try first. Take a couple of cups of favas; rinse, then put in a pot with water to cover and a little more. Bring to a boil, reduce heat, and simmer until they are very soft. Empty into a collander and press out as much water as I can without mushing the beans through. Take two onions. Mince and boil, then strain out and add to beans. Take two cloves of garlic. Whack with a knife to smash and remove outer cover, then mince. Put a little olive oil in a pan. Add garlic as it heats. When it's hot, stir in beans and onions. (I could more accurately have stirred the garlic in with the beans and onions, but I'm not sure I want to fry this stuff long enough to be certain that the garlic all gets cooked. Saute briefly, turning from time to time. Remove to serving plate. Mix up some powder douce (for this, I'd try a tsp each sugar and cinnamon, half a tsp ginger, and a quarter tsp each mace and cloves), and sprinkle over. Now find out if it's food. Cheers, - -- Katerine/Terry Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:01:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Sharon L. Harrett" Subject: Re: SC - Green Beans Greetings All from Ceridwen First I'd like to tell you all how much I have enjoyed this past week's postings! The challenges, whether they be simple or complex, have something for all of us! They have been wonderful!!!!. Comment on the Green Bean thing... John Gerard mentions 11 different types of "Kidney Beans", with different characteristics of growing and flowering, Friuting, etc. He says that 9 of those are common in English gardens and are eaten both shelled (ripe) and " the friut and cods of Kidney Beans boiled together before they be ripe, and buttered, and so eaten with their cods, are exceeding delicate meat, and do not engender winde as the other Pulses do" In the next paragraph, he goes on to describe the praparation of the unripe beans, including de-stringing them after being parboiled. As for the Botanical evidence, I'm not entirely sure when and by whom Latin classification was standardized, but Gerard names those beansas follows; 1. Phaseolus Albus - Garden or White kidney bean 2. Phaseolus Niger - Black Kidney bean 3. Smilax hortensus rubra - Red Kidney bean 4. Smilax hortensus flava - Pale yellow Kidney Bean 5. Phaseolus peregrinus fructu minore alba - Indian Kidney Bean with a small white fruit 6.Phaseolus peregrinus fructa minore frutescens - Indian Kidney Bean with a small red fruit 7. Phaseolus prergrinus augustifolius - Narrow leafed Kidnay bean (with a small red fruit) 8.Phaseolus Brasilianus - Kidney Bean of Brazil 9. Phaseolus Egyptanicus - Parti-coloured bean of Egypt. As an aside, he says that there is a bean called the "scarlet bean" which is grown in a garden he knows of, that the pods have little hairs on them that sting like nettles, possibly from the East Indies, but not eaten. He also discusses Lupines (boiles till the bitterness is gone, and eaten with pickle), peas and lentils, garden beans (fava major hortensis) and black beans (not eaten) Anyone care to take a stab at comparing Gerard's beans to ours, horticulturally or otherwise? Ceridwen Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:11:49 -0400 From: "Sharon L. Harrett" Subject: Re: SC - Cassoulet Yep, I have Gerard's... and we did discuss this a few months back, but anyway, here goes. Gerard states that there are 9 kinds of "kidney bean" known to him (and quotes from other sources as well). These include some from India, Egypt, and Brazil, as well as those grown in earlier times in the Mediterranean. His illustrations resemble our lima bean far more than a kidney bean, being flat ovals, and the pods are flat also with a distinct string along the straight side. He says they come in several colors, white, black, red, purple, and orange. The plants and flowers resemble our lima bean much more than a string or shell bean, having narrow leaves well apart on the stalks. Among the other legumes, he has lentils(2 kinds) garden peas (6 kinds) several edible vetches, and the "garden bean" or fava, with 3 kinds being known (white, yellow, and black)- the black being grown ornamentally only, not eaten. There are no references to what we have now... string beans, although he says that the favas and "kidney" beans may be cooked immature, in their pods, and dressed with vinegar and salt as a "daintie meat" Ceridwen Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:43:54 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Cassoulet Favas can be either fresh, dried, or canned. I've never seen them frozen, so far as I know. Mature favas have a fairly tough husk on them. This is not the seed pod or shell itself, which gets opened to get at the bean. This is what I believe is termed the cotyledon of the bean. In any case, if you take some fava beans out of the shell, and cook them, you may find that they have an unpleasantly tough outer layer, which makes them a little difficult to deal with if the beans are to be left even semi-whole. Even fresh favas have this husk on them, except in the case of really tiny baby ones, where it isn't as tough, and can be eaten. If all you can find is dried whole favas, I'll say I have had good results with boiling them like any other large beans, and then pushing them through a strainer to separate the pulp from the husks. A Foley or Mouli food mill, which is really just a colander with a sort of crank propeller, is also excllent for this. If you want to preserve their shape, though, you'll need to do this by hand, individually. Middle Eastern markets are a good place to get split, dried favas, which are more or less like split peas, and about as easy to work with. Then, of course, there's the medieval European approach, which is to make canebyns. These are a preparation of dry favas which consists of soaking them until they begin to swell up and almost germinate, like malt. They will split partway out of that leathery husk, and then it is easier to remove. The beans are then cut into smaller pieces (remember favas are sometimes an inch long) and toasted to help dry them. I did a little experimentation to satisfy myself that there was no enzymatic stuff going on, as the process did rather resemble malting. I'm sure there was enzymatic stuff going on, but it doesn't seem to have affected the beans in the short term, especially after cutting them up and toasting them. I suspect that the process for making canebyns may have been developed as a way to make sure the beans were fully dried before they spoiled, which may well have been an issue in the temperate but rather humid climate found in some parts of England and France in period. Most of the canebyn recipes I've seen are English, although I have seen, IIRC, one or perhaps two that are French. Speaking as one who has actually made these suckers, I'll say that while the process works, and is fascinating, I'd just as soon buy split favas at Charlie Sahadi's in Brooklyn. Adamantius Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 16:06:55 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Cassoulet Certainly there must have been beans of various kinds imported from places like India and China to the Middle East, other than the chick pea, the lentil, and the fava. The soy bean certainly was cultivated in Asia very early in our period, and sooner. Other candidates are things like mung beans (more or less a tiny variety of soybean) and several varieties of chick pea that appear to have been more or less unknown to most Europeans. However, we don't really know that the kidney beans Gerard refers to, are the String Bean Group from South America. Kidney bean is a perfectly natural nomenclature based on shape, and it would be perfectly acceptable to call even favas by that name. As is often the case, the more you dig, the more confusing things become... Adamantius Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:19:37 -0400 From: Woeller D Subject: Re: SC - Fava beans & Saffron > >I'd just as soon buy split favas at Charlie Sahadi's in Brooklyn. > >Adamantius > > Looking for favas in Middle Eastern markets had not occurred to me. My > source for inexpensive favas (bulk dried foods in general) went out of > business a couple of years ago. I can get whole favas at a local health > food store (veddy hexpensife) and I can get split favas at a culinary > store for about half the price of the health food joint. From your > advice, I'll opt for the split favas if I can't find them any cheaper. Bonjour; Another note about favas- you can buy them already prepared in most Arabic food stores (often listed as 'Halal Meat' stores)(in VA, at least), from about $.75 per 15 oz can, and up. I like the 20 oz can, brand 'Sahadi' that I buy for $1.29 (Yes, they are packed for the Brooklyn Sahadi Company) They are listed as "Foul Mudammas"(pronounced more like 'fool' than 'fowl'), rather than 'favas', in some stores, and are very good. I'm sure most of you would rather cook them from scratch, but buying a can to try them before I cook something new gives me more of an idea what I'm shooting for, and I like to have some on hand, ready right now. Hope the info is helpful. Bon Chance Angelique Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:35:22 -0800 From: "Melinda Shoop" To: "SCA Arts" Subject: Beans in a Period Recipe I am looking at recreating a recipe from Thomas Dawson's "The Good Huswife's Jewell", published in London in 1596. In a recipe titled, "To Defend Humors" the reader is instructed: "Take beanes, the rinde or the upper skin being pulled of, & bruse them and mingle them with the white of an Egge, and make it sticke to the Temples, it keepeth backe humors flowing to the eyes." I want to know what type of bean available to the shooper today would match the bean spoken of in the recipe, or, if this is not available, what could be used instead. Any other comments about this recipe, the humor theory, or the role of the ingredients in the recipe would be welcome, if you are familar with this work. Thank you in advance for your help! In Gratitude, Lady Fiametta La Ghianda/Melinda Shoop Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:54:37 -0500 (EST) From: DianaFiona@aol.com To: sca-arts@raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Beans in a Period Recipe << I want to know what type of bean available to the shooper today would match the bean spoken of in the recipe, or, if this is not available, what could be used instead. Any other comments about this recipe, the humor theory, or the role of the ingredients in the recipe would be welcome, if you are familar with this work. >> Well the bean part is easy---they were using fava beans. These are one of the few old-world bean varieties, along with lentils and garbanzos (chickpeas), plus the peas that our modern green peas decended from. Favas look rather like limas, and tend to have a rather thick, tough skin that fastidious cooks will often remove. It's not hard, just rather tedious---you cook the beans lightly, cool them enough to handle, and squirt them out of the skins. Then finish cooking and seasoning. This process is for the fresh ones, if you can find them (Look in gourmet markets and stores that cater to a Middle Eastern or Mediteranian community.), but with the dried ones the pre-cooking soak will often loosen the skins enough to let you remove them. That said, I rarely bother, since the skins don't usually offend my tastes. The exception was some fresh ones that I helped prepare for a feast last summer. The feastcrat had managed to find a source for frozen fresh favas, that we used to make the Benes Yfryed from Forme of Cury (Boil the beans, drain, fry with chopped onions and garlic, sprinkle with powder douce [sweet spices]). But either the variety was particularly tough or the frying caused the problem, but they were a bit much even for me. And microwaving the leftovers I got to take home *really* didn't help............ ;-) I can find several varieties of canned or dried favas in my local Indian market, so I don't imagine they are *too* hard to get these days if you live in a large enough place to have ethnic groceries. Now, if I can just manage to get across town soon---I running low on several things from there! ;-) Ldy Diana Fiona O'Shera Vulpine Reach, Meridies (Chattanooga, TN) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:36:06 -0600 (CST) From: Todd Lewis To: SCA-ARTS list Subject: Re: Re- Beans in a Period Recip I came across an interesting passage in a chronicle entitled L'Estoire de la Guerre Sainte, printed in Edward Noble Stone, trans., Three Old French Chronicles of the Crusades (Seattle: University of Washington, 1939). The chronicle details the campaign of King Richard in Third Crusade. Describing a period of famine, the passage reads, "Back he came and they ate beans, being well-nigh mad with hunger . . . A certain thing was sold in the host of God which they called carob-beans. These were sweet to the taste, and a man could get a mess of them for one silver penny; and they were well worth the seeking. With these and with little nuts were many folk kept alive. . ." (p.65) A note in the text describes "carob-beans" as "Saint John's bread, Ceratonia Siliqua." I don't have much experience in medieval cooking, but perhaps this is what is referred to in medieval recipes calling for beans. Lord Henry Percivale Kempe Shire-March of Grimfells Calontir Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:30:25 -0500 (EST) From: To: sca-arts@raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Re- Beans in a Period Recip << A note in the text describes "carob-beans" as "Saint John's bread, Ceratonia Siliqua." I don't have much experience in medieval cooking, but perhaps this is what is referred to in medieval recipes calling for beans. Lord Henry Percivale Kempe >> I wouldn't think it's likely--for one thing there are too many other sources that discuss beans which tell us that they are the type we are more familiar with. Specifically, the beans used in Europe before Columbus were lentils, favas, and, at least to some extent, garbanzos (Chickpeas). This is the first reference I've seen to carob being used by Europeans--thanks! But another reason is that the carob "beans" grow on a large tree--it *is* leguminous, I believe, rather like the honey locust tree around here--that is too cold sensitive to grow in most of Europe, if I recall correctly. I'd checked it out a bit when I ran across seeds or plants in one of the more exotic seed catalogs I'd found, and was disapointed to find that it wouldn't grow here. Too bad--carob tastes great, if you don't expect it to be chocolate! ;-) Ldy Diana Vulpine Reach,Meridies Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:04:13 -0600 From: khkeeler To: sca-arts@raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Re- Beans in a Period Recip DianaFiona@aol.com wrote: > the first reference I've seen to carob being used by Europeans--thanks! Carob is mentioned in the Dioscorides' herbal (AD 64 and the most important medicinal herbal across all of Period) Carob is "native to the Mediterranean region, ...its common name, St. John's bread, is comes from the fact that it constituted the "locust" on which John the Baptist fed. In ancient times carob seeds were used as weights for small quantities of of precious substances such as gold because they are extreemely uniform in size. Our modern unit the carat, used for gold and jewels, is a reflection of this former use. Traditionally carob pods were gathered from wild trees and the sweet mesocarp pulp was choosed from the endocarp surrounding the seeds. The seeds themselves have been used to make a coffeelike beverage." BB Simpson and MC Ogorzaly Economic Botany 2nd ed 1995, p. 224. This sounds like it wasn't a "bean", but Simpson and Ogorzaly isn't focused on the Middle Ages the way we are so there may be more to the story. Agnes Mag Mor, Calontir kkeeler@unlinfo.unl.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:56:11 -0500 (EST) From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - green beans << why would you say green beans were one of the items quickly and extensively used after discovery? >> First, I would refer you to the posts from this list a while back when we were having the great bean debate. ;-) Secondly, we have a date, according to Toussaint-Samat of 1528, when seeds were given to Canon Piero Valeriano by Pope Clement VII, who recieved tas a gift from the New World. The Canon planted the beans in pots and carefully noted germination rates, growth patterns, etc. He commented speciffically on how productive they were. Some of the resulting crop was used to prepare a dish which usually used favas. The result was pronounced delicious and the beans were called fagioli. The use of these beans swept throughout N. Italy, At this time the Canon persuaded Catherine de Medici to include a bag of bean seed in her dowry. The bean was loved by all and due to it's productivity was only a fleeting "exotic" soon being grown all over Provence and other regions where it ultimately (My Note: probably within 10 years) was known as "poor man's food". Quote: "It's reputation as a cheap stomach filler guarenteed its popularity". IMHO, other sources and conjecture from eating habits support the supposition supports the idea that green beans as opposed to dried beans per se were eaten rather extensively because a handful of green beans is one serving. Those same beans shelled as dry would amount to a mere taste. As researchers into food history we, as moderns, must be ever vigilant to remember that until recently in history man's society was agricultural. Thusly, the quick dispersal of a food product that was prolific and good for eating in several stages of growth would have been, and indeed was, quickly accomplished. Ras Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:14:53 -0500 (EST) From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - green beans << Pineapple, I can see. They are sweet which was craved. They are unusual which makes them ideal for gardens of exotics. Same goes for peppers and perhaps for Turkeys. They fill a percieved need. But green beans?>> As noted in my previous post, the percieved need was filling bellies. The planting of a single seed and harvest mutiple seeds only a few weeks later would have assured it's place in the garden. With an average household (including servants) of 20 mouths to feed this shouldn't be too hard to grasp. :-) To add to the green bean post> Jane Grigsom in her "Vegetable Book" (as does Toussaint-Samat clearly staes that the word "haricot" as used by the English meant dried beans while SAME word in France denoted "green beans". Such a dual purpose food which had the advantage of looking very similar to an already known product, favas, would not have had the problem of exceptance that such foods as tomatoes or potatoes would have (and did). In storage dried beans keep very well while dried favas loose their flavor and become rather insipid. As green beans they could have been eaten throughtout the growing season and yet would have provided a crop of seed for next year. Add the ability to be substituted for favas in any recipe and thereby producing a far more palatable product, it is not at all surprising that it rapidly gained acceptance. When climate is taken into account, the use of dried beans by the English and green beans by the French is readily apparent as it would have been easy for the French to produce two or even three crops a year where England would have produced one. << Stefan li Rous >> Ras Subject Re: SC - green beans Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 18:03:24 MST From: DUNHAM Patricia R To: "Mark.S Harris" , sca-cooks@Ansteorra.ORG Having grown pole beans last summer and favas and Jacob's cattle beans (one of the kinds you dry and make soup from) this summer... The seeds you plant pole beans from look about a quarter the size, but the same general bean-shape as a fava... (about 1.5 times the size of a seed pea-- we also had regular peas and sugar pods, both years). I don't think pole-bean seeds are sold for anything besides growing more pole beans, to eat the flesh of, but that's a very casual opinion. The seeds you would see in frozen or canned green beans would be of an immature size. I think the kinds of beans you use for baked beans and chili and so forth are not mature green-bean seeds, but types that are grown specifically for the dried seeds, like the Jacob's cattle (an old variety, name comes from they're brown and white speckled). (Yeah, I got inspired by John Thorne's latest book; I MAY have enough for one batch of baked beans 8-).) To a casual observer (me), green beans and favas appear quite similar when growing. We didn't stake the favas because we didn't understand they'd try to grow to 6 feet! I think the leaves are generally similar and the favas and pole beans both have climbing tendrils... the pole beans' tendrils seem to be much sturdier and more active than the favas. The fava pods are about twice the size of a green bean, same length, but, well, --broader-- , and flatter rather than green-bean round... they -look- like there'd be lima-shaped beans in them... And before the fava pods mature and start to dry, they're green. The foliage of the pole beans as I recall stay brighter green for longer. The favas started to fade (paler and paler green) sooner, didn't seem nearly as vibrant as the other two types. The real difference is in harvesting... you pick the pole beans whole and eat them out of hand clear thru the growing season 8-), or can or freeze or whatever. The drying beans stay on the bush while the pod goes tan and papery as it and the beans dry. (Then you pick and shell and winnow the pod scraps out...) And the Fava pods dry BLACK and withered looking around the beans... a very odd effect. And you sort of pry the pod off in hard solid chunks. So there's a lot of visual similarity between favas and green beans when young and growing, and by the time you get the big harvest difference, you've already eaten enough green beans to know a good thing! Especially cause there is edible produce there from an early stage, on the pole/green beans, which isn't available with the favas or drying-beans (well, I didn't try either of those when they were little, 'cause I was pre-programmed to go for the storage end-product...) Chimene Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:19:58 -0500 (EST) From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - green beans << But do favas and green beans look alike? >> No. They look similar. They are both legumes and have the basic characteristics of all legumes. This includes but is not restricted to flower structure, podded seeds, root nodules and, in the case of favas and New World beans, SIMILAR l;eaf structure.. As noted in a previous post the growing season is longer in New World types. Favas generally require cooler growing temperatures and finish producing before hot weather sets in. <> You are right for the most part except you are forgetting that the fava is surrounded by a darker colored sheath which is usually removed. The resulting bean is SIMILAR in shape to N.W. beans, that is more or less kidney shaped. Cooking times and techniques are almost identical for dried beans of both families and mouth feel and texture are almost identical <> There are many varieties of beans> Red kidney beans, Great Northeren, Lima, Black beans, white kidney beans and my absolute favorite "horticultural" beans which are white with burgundy markings, just to name a few. All of these varieties vary in size and to a lesser extent shape. All can be consumed in the green, immature state pod and all. All can be grown until mature and used as a dried bean. Most are definitely NOT smaller than peas with the notible exception of black eyed peas, black beans and the miniature form of Great Northern (a name I can't recall) which is used in the Current Middle Ages for the making of real Boston Baked Beans. And, yes, the beans you are to that come in a "small" green tube including the tube is collectively called a "green bean". The tiny seeds you notice are embryonic forms of what would have matured into the familiar dry bean you are familiar with. <> Generally, yes. See the above varities mentioned. For the most part, whether beans are grown for eating when immature and encased in green tube-like structures or whether they will be allowed to mature into seeds and shelled out is a decision of the gardener depending on whether food needs are immediate or not. Ras Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:24:50 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Hummus and falafel At 9:32 AM -0600 3/12/98, Decker, Terry D. wrote: >I took note of a comment in an earlier message that there is no period >documentation for hummus. > >I am considered serving hummus and falafel as vegetable dishes in a future >feast. I would appreciate any input about the history of these two dishes. > >Bear "Hummus" means "chickpeas," and is a period ingredient. Hummus bi Tahini is the familiar chickpea dip, and I have not found it in any period cookbook. Sesame seeds are common in period Islamic cooking, but I don't think I have seen anything that looks like tahini. There are, however, period dips, or things that work as dips, of which my favorite (also vegetarian) is badinjan muhassa; the recipe is in the (webbed) _Miscellany_. Is falafel made from chickpea flour? If so, you might want to consider "counterfeit Isfiriya of Garbanzos" in _Manuscrito Anonimo_ as the closest period equivalent, and try working on that instead. The recipe is: Counterfeit (Vegetarian) IsfÓriy’ of Garbanzos Pound some garbanzos, take out the skins and grind them into flour. And take some of the flour and put into a bowl with a bit of sourdough and some egg, and beat with spices until it's all mixed. Fry it as before in thin cakes, and make a sauce for them. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:32:47 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Hummus and falafel At 3:45 PM -0600 3/12/98, jeffrey stewart heilveil wrote: >On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, david friedman wrote: > >> Counterfeit (Vegetarian) Isf²riyí of Garbanzos >> >> Pound some garbanzos, take out the skins and grind them into flour. And >> take some of the flour and put into a bowl with a bit of sourdough and some >> egg, and beat with spices until it's all mixed. Fry it as before in thin >> cakes, and make a sauce for them. >> >> David/Cariadoc >> http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ > >Cariadoc, >I was wondering what spices might have been used at the time, as this does >not sound far from what I generally use to make falafel. - --- This is the recipe used by Sayyid Abu al-Hasan and others in Morocco, and they called it isfÓriy’. Take red lamb, pound it vigorously and season it with some murri naqÓ', vinegar, oil, pounded garlic, pepper, saffron, cumin, coriander, lavender, cinnamon, ginger, cloves, chopped lard, and meat with all the gristle removed and pounded and divided, and enough egg to envelop the whole. - --- A Recipe of IsfÓriy’ Take some red meat and pound as before. Put it in some water and add some sour dough dissolved with as much egg as the meat will take, and salt, pepper, saffron, cumin, and coriander seed, and knead it all together. Then put a pan with fresh oil on the fire, and when the oil has boiled, add a spoon of isfÓriya and pour it in the frying pan carefully so that it forms thin cakes. Then make a sauce for it. Simple IsfÓriy’ Break however many eggs you like into a big plate and add some sourdough, dissolved with a commensurate number of eggs, and also pepper, coriander, saffron, cumin, and cinnamon. Beat it all together, then put it in a frying pan with oil over a moderate fire and make thin cakes out of it, as before. - -- The last two appear just before the counterfeit isfiriya recipe. So it looks as though pepper, coriander, saffron, cumin, plus maybe cinnamon, lavender, ginger, cloves, garlic and murri, would be the appropriate spicing. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:55:31 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - European Grain/Legume combo? At 12:56 PM -0800 3/28/98, Konstanza von Brunnenburg wrote: > >I am searching for any documented European dish that combined a grain (i.e. >cereal grass) product with a legume (e.g. beans, peas) product -- the >trusty vegetarian "complete protein" combo. So far I've only found this in >a couple of Arabic recipes -- Caradoc's translations of "Khichri" and >"Counterfeit (Vegetarian) IsfÓ riy’ of Garbanzos". I'd like to try >substituting a grain/legume combo for meat in appropriate European recipes, >and it would be great to be able to somehow *document* that a grain/legume >combination was at least actually used in Period in (for example) England >or Germany. (Extra points for grain/legume documented as a Lenten >substitute!) > As far as I can tell, they did not substitute grain/legume combinations for meat in order to do meatless meals. Fish is the usual substitute--which probably isn't much help to you. They did have pea and bean dishes, but they aren't versions of meat dishes. Note also that bread would have been served with every meal--so you are getting a grain along with whatever else is part of the meal. Here are some bean dishes (original only; references below). The funny letter is meant to be a thorn: single letter for th. Longe Wortes de Pesone Two Fifteenth Century p. 89 Take grene pesyn, and wassh hem clene, And cast hem in a potte, and boyle hem til they breke; and then take hem vppe fro the fire, and putte hem in the broth in an other vessell; And lete hem kele; And drawe hem thorgh a Streynour into a faire potte. And then take oynones in ij. or iij. peces; And take hole wortes, and boyle hem in fayre water; And then take hem vppe, And ley hem on the faire borde, And kutte hem in .iij. or in .iiij. peces; And caste hem and the oynons into Üat potte with the drawen pesen, and late hem boile togidre til they be all tendur, And then take faire oile and fray, or elles fressh broth of some maner fissh, (if Üou maist, oyle a quantite), And caste thereto saffron, and salt a quantite. And lete hem boyle wel togidre til they ben ynogh; and stere hem well euermore, And serue hem forthe. Fried Broad Beans Platina p. 115 (book 7) Put broad beans that have been cooked and softened into a frying pan with soft fat, onions, figs, sage, and several pot herbs, or else fry them well rubbed with oil and, on a wooden tablet or a flat surface, spread this into the form of a cake and sprinkle spices over it. Benes yfryed Curye on Inglysch p. 141 (Forme of Cury no. 189) Take benes and seeÜ hem almost til Üey bersten. Take and wryng out the water clene. Do Üerto oynouns ysode and ymynced, and garlec Üerwith; frye hem in oile oÜer in grece, & do Üerto powdour douce, & serue it forth. Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books (1430-1450), Thomas Austin Ed., Early English Text Society, Oxford University Press, 1964. Platina, De Honesta Voluptate, Venice, L. De Aguila, 1475. Translated by E. B. Andrews, Mallinkrodt 1967. (Both Platina and Kenelm Digby were published as part of the "Mallinkrodt Collection of Food Classics." Reprinted by Falconwood Press, 1989.) Page numbers given herein are from the Falconwood edition. Curye on Inglysch: English Culinary Manuscripts of the Fourteenth Century (Including the Forme of Cury), edited by Constance B. Hieatt and Sharon Butler, published for the Early English Text Society by the Oxford University Press, 1985. Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:36:47 -0800 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" Subject: SC - SC-reconstructions of medieval grain and legume dishes Hi all from Anne-Marie as promised, here's my reconstructions for medieval dishes that can be used to combine grains and legumes. As Cariadoc has pointed out, this is not a medieval concept, but these are reconstructions of medieval dishes, so I guess its better than sneaking in your Veggie burger cuz there's nothing else to eat. Once again, formatting didn't transfer over well, and so if you need citations, etc, let me know. And, of course, as always, if you choose to use my recipes, that's great, just let me know and please cite me appropriately. Thanks, and enjoy! - --AM BENES YFRYED from Forme of Curye. 189 Benes yfryed. Take benes and Seeth hem almost til they bersten. Take and wryng out the water clene. Do thereto oynouns ysode and ymynced, and garlec therwith; frye hem in oile other in grece, and do therto powdour douce, and serve it forth. 8T butter 2 large onions, chopped 4 cloves garlic. Caramelize. Divide into two. 27 oz can Fava beans or 2x15oz cans garbanzos. Drain and rinse. Fry the benes in 2T melted, bubbling hot butter or olive oil over medium hi heat until crunchy looking, about 10 minutes. Sprinkle with * tsp. poudre douce. Reconstruction notes: YUM!!!! Fava way tastier than garbanzos. Definitely need to serve hot. Way to go Celeste! Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:53:42 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Need recipe ?beans? Niamh of Wyvern Cliffes gave a recipe for pinto bean pie and wrote: >Okay so its OOP thought you might like to try it. It is actually >surprisingly good. >PINTO BEAN PIE: >1/2 c hot mashed beans >1/2 stick oleo >1 1/2 c sugar >2 whole eggs >1 c coconut >1 c pecans >1 (9-inch) unbaked crust... Well, the pinto beans, coconut, and pecans are OOP but the basic idea, as it happens, is period. To Make a Tarte of Beans A Proper Newe Book of Cookery p. 37/C11 (16th c. English) Take beanes and boyle them tender in fayre water, then take theym oute and breake them in a morter and strayne them with the yolckes of foure egges, curde made of mylke, then ceason it up with suger and halfe a dysche of butter and a lytle synamon and bake it. To make short paest for tarte A Proper Newe Book p. 37/C10 Take fyne floure and a curscy of fayre water and a dysche of swete butter and a lyttel saffron, and the yolkes of two egges and make it thynne and as tender as ye maye. 1/2 lb (1 1/4 c) dry fava beans 1/2 c curds (cottage cheese) 6 T butter 4 egg yolks 4 T sugar 4 t cinnamon Crust: 6 threads saffron crushed in 1 t cool water 5-6 T very soft butter 1 c flour 2 egg yolks Put beans in 2 1/2 c of water, bring to boil and let sit, covered, 70 minutes. Add another cup of water, boil about 50 minutes, until soft. Drain beans and mush in food processor. Cool bean paste so it won't cook the yolks. Mix in yolks; add cottage cheese (do not drain); add sugar, butter (soft or in small bits), and cinnamon and mush. Will be a thick liquid. To make crust, mix saffron water into flour; add egg yolks and mix well (will be crumbly). Add 4 T butter and mix well; add enough of remaining butter to make a smooth paste. (Amount used depends upon softness of butter and warmth of kitchen.) Roll smooth and place in 9" pie plate. Crimp edge. Pour into raw crust and bake at 350ƒ for about 50 minutes (top cracks). Cool before eating. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 21:17:58 EDT From: LrdRas Subject: Re: SC - Wanted: recipes for Jacob's cattle beans rsve60@email.sps.mot.com writes: << like the Jacob's cattle (an old variety, name comes from they're brown and white speckled). (Yeah, I got inspired by John Thorne's latest book; I MAY have enough for one batch of baked beans 8-).) >> Jacob's Cattle beans are identical to "horticultural beans" which is what they are. When cooked they loose the speckles and are all white. They can be used in any bean recipe that calls for Great Northerns or Navy Beans. They are New World. Hope this helps. Ras Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:43:33 -0400 From: mermayde@juno.com (Christine A Seelye-King) Subject: SC - Fave dei Morti (Beans of the Dead) Ok, here you go, a recipie and everything. This is from the book "Feast-Day Cakes From Many Lands" by Dorothy Gladys Spicer copyrite 1960, Holt, Rinehart and Winston, NY 'Fave die Morti (Beans of the Dead) - Italy Fave dei Morti, beans of the dead, are the little bean-shaped cakes that Italians eat on November 2, Il Giorno dei Morti, or All Soul's Day. These small cakes, made of ground almonds and sugar combined with egg, butter, flour, and subtle flavorings, are traditionally eaten throughout Italy on the day that everyone decorates the graves with flowers and says masses for departed souls. In spite of the somber beginning of Il Giorno dei Morti, the day is far from gloomy. To young men in and about Rome, the Day of the Dead is the proper time to send engagement rings to sweethearts. And to young couples this 'festa' is the occasion to announce betrothals. Fave dei Morti, sometimes white, or tinted delicate pink, or chocolate color, play an important part in these rites. For the man sends the ring to his fiancee in a conventional small square white box that is packed in an oval container, full of the bean-shaped cakes. Fave dei Morti, beans of the dead, are rich and delicate little cakes. Despite their macabre origin, you will want them often. Color them orange and serve them at Halloween or Thanksgiving parties with ice cream goblin or pumpkin molds. Or leave them white and store in tightly closed tins, to serve with coffee or tea to unexpected guests. FAVE DEI MORTI 1/2 cup sugar 3 tablespoons butter 1/2 cup finely ground almonds (unblanched) 1 egg 2 tablespoons all purpose flour 1 tablespoon grated lemon rind Vegetable coloring, if desired Combine sugar, butter, and ground almonds. Beat egg and add to other ingredients, mixing thoroughly. Add flour and flavoring. Work dough until smooth and make into a roll about 1 1/2 inches in diameter. Wrap in waxed paper and refrigerate 2-3 hours. Then cut off bits of dough and mold them into kidney-shaped pieces about as large as lima beans. Bake on greased cookie sheet in moderate oven (350 degrees) about 15-20 minutes, or until golden brown. Cool 5 minutes before removing them from pan with spatula. Yield: about 2 dozen small cakes. ' I would infer from the "Add flour and flavoring" line that you should add whatever flavor you wish at this stage, such as cocoa powder, lemon, etc. Hope this is what your autocrat had in mind! Good Luck, Mistress Christianna MacGrain Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:12:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: SC - Fave dei Morti (Beans of the Dead) Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 16-Jun-98 SC - Fave dei Morti (Beans .. by C. Seelye-King@juno.com > Ok, here you go, a recipie and everything. This is from the book > "Feast-Day Cakes From Many Lands" by Dorothy Gladys Spicer > copyrite 1960, Holt, Rinehart and Winston, NY Looks like the name has transferred since 1614 -- in Castelvetti, Fava del Morte is actually a sort of fava bean paste. toodles, margaret Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:52:05 -0400 From: "Robert Newmyer" Subject: Re: SC - Fave dei Morti (Beans of the Dead) I found the following recipe thru a friend. Pretty basic but tasty. I have no idea of the origin of this version but I thought a Fave de Morti recipe that actually contains beans would be of interest. Fava de Morti (Fava Beans) 1 lb. broad beans, dried 5 large garlic cloves, mashed 2 bay leaves salt pepper olive oil, extra virgin Soak the beans in water overnight. Next morning drain and put in pot with fresh water, the garlic, and the bay leaves, and simmer until tender. This may take two to three hours, depending on the age of the beans. Add water, if necessary, but aim for a thick rather than runny sauce at the end. Season with salt, pepper, and plenty of really good olive oil. Serve with lemon and parsley. This dish is good tepid or at room temperature, and is even better the next day. from "Painters & Food - Renaissance Recipes" by Gillian Riley Griffith Allt y Genlli Bob Newmyer Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:17:44 EDT From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: SC - Fava alert In a message dated 6/18/98 2:41:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, allilyn@juno.com writes: << Does that mean the dried seeds inside the fava case, or does it mean food processing cooked fava beans, as we usually eat them--green? >> I know that I have said this before but people of European descent can have severe allergic reactions to fava beans. Please be cautious if you are of European descent, espicially Mediterranean ancestry. The offending part of trhe bean is the gelatinous stuff between the pod and the bean in green fava beans for the most part. Ras Subject: RE: ANST --..Historical references to beans... Date: Tue, 08 Sep 98 16:54:25 MST From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG'" > Okay Bear, it's renaissence...but heres what you requested...Reference > for your beans: fourteenth century. > > 154. D'autres menuz potaiges...: Other Lesser Pottages, such as stewed > chard, cabbage, turnip greens, leeks, veal in Yellow Sauce, and plain > shallot pottage, peas, frenched beans, mashed beans, sieved beans or > beans in their shell, pork offal, brewet of pork tripe -- women are > experts with these and anyone knows how to do them; as for tripe, which > I have not put in my recipe book, it is common knowledge how it is to be > eaten. > > The Viandier of Taillevent > > Rayah Thank you for the information. I don't have the Viander in my library, but I will probably add it. The reference is almost certainly to favas and I have never come across it. Wonder if his unstated recipe for tripe is similar to modern menudo? Bear Subject: Re: ANST --..Historical references to beans... Date: Tue, 08 Sep 98 12:03:17 MST From: peerage1 To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG More windy talk *grin* > Phaseolus vulgaris, the New World string bean. Yes and no, that particular name that covers a very broad category...please go and read this site: http://www.hort.purdue.edu/rhodcv/hort410/peas/pe00003.htm and http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/Indices/index_ab.html > To my knowledge, there is no record of these having been consumed in >Europe within the SCA period. In answer to that from that site: The four major cultivated species of Phaseolus bean all originated in central and S. America. Ancient seeds of cultivated forms have been found in Peru (dated to 6000 BC) and Mexico (dated to 4000 BC). Bean cultivation spread into N. America; finds in New Mexico have been dated to around 300 BC. French beans were brought to Europe in the early 16th century. Early varieties were all climbers, and dwarf French beans were not commonly grown until the 18th century. another similar reference: Distribution Common beans are native to the New World, probably Central Mexico and Guatemala. They were taken to Europe by the Spaniards and Portuguese who also took them to Africa and other parts of the Old World. Now they are widely cultivated in the tropics, subtropics and temperate regions. Herando Cortes is guilty of bringing "green" beans to europe. Date of Cortes is 1485-1547 Now the beans which immediately were called "fagioli" then a century later (1653) recieve the name of haricot beans. Pope Clement VII Clement VII, Pope c.1475-1534, pope (1523-34), recieves several and gives some to Canon Piero Valeriano who culivates them in Italy, as well as passing on some beans to Catherine de' Merdici in 1533 who brings them to France. Main Entry: har…i…cot Pronunciation: '(h)ar-i-"kO Function: noun Etymology: French Date: 1653 : the ripe seed or the unripe pod of any of several beans (genus Phaseolus and especially P. vulgaris) > The later is the seed pod of Vicia faba, the fava or broad bean. The edible seed looks a little like a white lima bean. This is the bean that would be appropriate for a period feast. Yepper, on the bean, BUT, Now, the ten dollar question: at what stage of growth was the bean pod also used in medieval cookery preparation and the color of the pod? *grin*.... rayah Subject: RE: ANST --..Historical references to beans... Date: Tue, 08 Sep 98 13:10:49 MST From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG'" > > To my knowledge, there is no record of these having been consumed in > >Europe within the SCA period. > > Herando Cortes is guilty of bringing "green" beans to europe. Date of > Cortes is 1485-1547 To be precise, I know of no use of unshelled New World beans in period (which is what the menu that kicked this off suggested). Introduction and cultivation does not equate to culinary use. Tomatoes were brought back to the Old World early on and known to be in Italy in 1534 and in England by 1596, but they were used as ornamentals rather than food plants. Sweet potatoes were in common use early on, but the white potato was generally ignored. There is evidence that the white was imported into Spain in 1573 as some form of emergency food and there is a German recipe from the very late 16th Century for a potato dish, but as a general food stuff white potatos didn't take off until the 18th Century. > Now the beans which immediately were called "fagioli" then a century > later (1653) recieve the name of haricot beans. Pope Clement VII > Clement VII, Pope c.1475-1534, pope (1523-34), recieves several and > gives some to Canon Piero Valeriano who culivates them in Italy, as well > as passing on some beans to Catherine de' Merdici in 1533 who brings > them to France. To my knowledge, this is apocryphal. Catherine was 14 in 1533, her family was in dire straits financially having been on the wrong side of a bad civil war, and her Uncle, Pope Clement, used her to cement a political alliance with the French. Her retinue belonged to the Pope and all those wonderous Italian cooks went back to Italy with him. She was a very small player in French history until 1560, when she became Regent for her son. She spent the next 29 years making up for lost time, changing France's culinary tastes in the process. Unless there is primary evidence that she did receive haricots from Canon Piero Valeriano, I would consider the story questionable. > Main Entry: har…i…cot > Pronunciation: '(h)ar-i-"kO > Function: noun > Etymology: French > Date: 1653 > : the ripe seed or the unripe pod of any of several beans (genus > Phaseolus and especially P. vulgaris) Yes, and how were they served? The best evidence I've seen is a late 16th Century painting called "The Bean Eater," shows a peasant eating a bowl of shelled beans. The recipes I've seen would not work well with unshelled beans. > > The later is the seed pod of Vicia faba, the fava or broad bean. The > edible seed looks a little like a white lima bean. This is the bean that > would be appropriate for a period feast. > > Yepper, on the bean, BUT, Now, the ten dollar question: at what stage of > growth was the bean pod also used in medieval cookery preparation and > the color of the pod? > *grin*.... > > rayah The dried pod is green around the edges and brown on the sides. I haven't seen a fresh pod or the growing plant. To my knowledge, the pod is not used in medieval cooking, at least, I haven't seen primary source recipe or description to that effect. If you have one, I would be interested in the source. One of the reasons for not using the pod (in fact for not serving favas at a feast) is that a number of people, usually of Southern European extraction, display an allergic reaction to the fava. This is commonly very mild , but there is a small percentage who have an anaphylactic reaction. Some authorities believe Pythagoras died from an anaphylactic reaction to fava beans after avoiding arrest by hiding in a bean field. At any rate, I would not serve what we in the U.S. call "green beans" at an "authentic" Medieval feast. They would be Renaissance at best. Bear Subject: Re: ANST --..Historical references to beans... Date: Tue, 08 Sep 98 22:27:44 MST From: RAISYA@aol.com To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG I've been listening in on the discussion of period beans with interest. I have an interest in plants, not as much as a cook but as a gardener. New world shell beans were available before 1600 in Europe, whether or not they were common, they were known in Europe within our period. I haven't found a description of snap beans, I'd be interested in that. Fava or broad beans, however, were not the only period bean. Charlemagne's CAPITULARE DE VILLIS (ca. 800 AD) refers to a "kidney" bean as well as a fava. The 14th century TACUINUM SANITATIS IN MEDICINA includes illuminations of both favas and another quite different plant called a bean. There are several obscure Old World candidates, the Asian dolichos or lab-lab bean seems to fit the illumination and descriptions the best. Additionally, in the TACUINUM there are illuminations of a chickpea and a plant I haven't yet identified called a vetchling that seems to have pods and was cooked much like the beans. >peas, frenched beans, mashed beans, sieved beans or beans in their shell In the TACUINUM, the author recommends eating favas cooked in water and vinegar and eaten unshelled to treat dysentary. I generally get an impression that the pods aren't considered too tasty, though, so this reference interests me . I don't really care one way or another about the inclusion of New World foods, that's the discretion of the cooks, or should be. I just found this part of the discussion intriguing. It's amazing what we can learn when we share information. However, my husband is deathly allergic to all legumes, and we had a bad scare a while back when someone used the same spoon to stir several pots, accidentally adding some peas to a dish that wasn't supposed to have any. Luckily, he spotted a pea in his bowl. Now, we rarely eat feasts that include legumes, which means we won't be eating this one. We don't eat pot-luck feasts for the same reason. BTW, one of the reasons for the importance of favas as a food had to do with WHEN they were grown. Favas don't tolerate warm weather and were planted after other crops were harvested, getting extended use out of the same space. New World beans are a tender warm weather crop. Also, the fava seed I have is flat, brown and large, larger than a quarter. Raisya Khorivovna Subject: RE: ANST --..Historical references to beans... Date: Wed, 09 Sep 98 07:02:06 MST From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG'" > Fava or broad beans, however, were not the only period bean. Charlemagne's > CAPITULARE DE VILLIS (ca. 800 AD) refers to a "kidney" bean as well as a fava. > The 14th century TACUINUM SANITATIS IN MEDICINA includes illuminations of both > favas and another quite different plant called a bean. There are several > obscure Old World candidates, the Asian dolichos or lab-lab bean seems to fit > the illumination and descriptions the best. Additionally, in the TACUINUM > there are illuminations of a chickpea and a plant I haven't yet identified > called a vetchling that seems to have pods and was cooked much like the > beans. You also have fasoles, which are an African variety of Vigna sinensis and are the ancestor of the modern black-eyed pea. Another variety commonly called the cowpea has its origins in India. Vetchlings are members of genus Lathyrus, but I haven't taken the time to chase down the appropriate species. > BTW, one of the reasons for the importance of favas as a food had to do with > WHEN they were grown. Favas don't tolerate warm weather and were planted > after other crops were harvested, getting extended use out of the same space. > New World beans are a tender warm weather crop. Also, the fava seed I have is > flat, brown and large, larger than a quarter. > > Raisya Khorivovna A little casual reading last night suggests that there a couple varieties of fava. The chief difference appears to be the size of the seed. There were no comments on the difference in taste. I think the seed you are describing is the large seed variety. Bear Subject: RE: ANST --..Historical references to beans... Date: Thu, 10 Sep 98 06:52:59 MST From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG'" > Actually, I think originally there were a number of varieties of fava/broad > beans, most of them now lost. I simply intended to give a first hand > description of the ones I have. If you have any information on time to > maturity, etc. I'd be delighted to hear it, I have only the vaguest of > information on growing these. So far, according to the LE MESNAGIER DE PARIS > (late 14th century) they are planted about the same time as peas. From an > illumination, they appear to be an upright plant rather than a vine. And > that's about all I know for certain. > > Raisya Khorivovna You are correct, the plant is stiff-stemmed and erect. It also appears there are a number of moden varieties, but no real information about medieval varieties. If you are interested in growing favas, I would start with these web sites: http://hammock.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/mv/mv01700.pdf (please note this is a pdf document which requires the Acrobat reader) http://www.efn.org/~rossr/cont.html If you are interested in cooking favas, I'd start with Stefan's Florilegium: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/rialto/beans-msg.html Bear Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 07:10:13 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Fava beans?? (and thanks) Jessica Tiffin wrote: > Please, can one of you American cooks give me an alternative name for fava > beans? They ain't known in South Africa under that name. What do the > darned things look like? White? Brown? Approximate shape? All the stuff > I have on period beans tells me that favas are the most period variety, > which isn't helping much... :> Hmmm. You might look for them under the name "broad bean", which, I gather, is sometimes used in connection with favas, although it's also used in connection with some New World beans too. "French beans" also is sometimes used to describe immature favas in some translations of Apician recipes, but, again, also is used in connection with New World varieties. But then, of course, most of the world doesn't speak of everything in its capacity of usefulness in historical recreation, and doesn't give a hoot about such distinctions. The dried favas in the markets have been shelled, but tend to be your usual vaguely kidney-shaped, slightly flattish bean with a slightly reddish, lentil colored skin when raw, which turns sort of mud brown when cooked. They will likely be 3/4 to 1 inch (2 to 2 1/2 cm) long, and perhaps 1/2 inch (1 cm) wide, and the biggest difference between favas and any other bean I know is their leathery skin: I'm not talking about the shell or pod, mind you, but the actual skin on each bean, which is paper-thin (and soft when cooked) on the New World varieties. Unless you find split favas in a Middle Eastern or other suitable market, the beans may have to be peeled by hand, unless soaked for a long time before cooking, almost to the point where they begin to germinate. This will cause them to burst out of their skins somewhat, and make the whole process a bit easier. Fresh favas tend to show up in markets in the pod, which is pale green and somewhat leathery, looking more or less like a mimosa pod, only much thicker and slightly waxy. Not sure what else I can say...cooked fava beans have a texture like cooked chestnuts, and something of their flavor and color, as well, but without the sweetness. You might get some via mail-order or something. The best place to look locally, if you have access to such, would be a market selling Mediterranean (i.e. Southern European or Middle Eastern, but Mediterranean is the new maddeningly vague term usually employed) groceries. Adamantius Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 08:22:15 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Fava beans?? (and thanks) > All the stuff > I have on period beans tells me that favas are the most period variety, > which isn't helping much... :> > > Melisant Take a look at cowpeas and black-eyed peas. My understanding is that these are variants of the same species which originated in India was brought to Africa and entered Europe from Africa in the late Medieval period. The black-eyed pea was presumably imported into the US as part of the slave trade. Bear Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 17:43:06 -0800 From: Anne-Marie Rousseau Subject: RE: SC - Fava beans?? (and thanks) Hey all from Anne-Marie re: nom de plums for fava beans.... see also broad beans, and "horse beans" of all things. The bins at our middle eastern market show them to come in a wide variety of colors and shapes and sizes, but the most common is either like a large browny green lima bean with a thick leathery skin, or else the canned variety, which resembles a brownish garbanzo bean with a thick skin. As far as I know, "black eyed peas" and "cowpeas" are new world beans. They may have been introduced to colonial america by the slave trade, but several other new world foods like sweet potatoes and peanuts were as well (amazing how things move so quickly, no? The porteugese see 'em here, and bring 'em home and use them and next thing you know, the Africans are using them, and then they come back home...) Anything with the genus Phaseolus is. Fava, garbanzos and lentils are in the pea family. If you get a chance to look at the plants, you can eaily tell the difference, and if you wanna do a bit of dissection, the way the seed is assembled can tell the difference too. Kidney beans are Phaseolus, and they have a "belly button" in a certain place. Fava and friends have their "belly buttons" in a different place. - --AM, who is very angry with Mr Vehling for interpreting Apicius as being for "french beans". Sheesh! Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 17:49:31 EST From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Fava beans?? (and thanks) TerryD@Health.State.OK.US writes: << Cowpeas are Vigna unguiculata and are of Old World origin. Bear >> Correct. The Chinese yard long bean is also a Vigna. The unique thing about CYL bean is that we have what is apparently an very close to life-like illumination of it in a manuscript dating before discovery of the New World Using that illumination as a reference point I planted these beans in my garden this year. They work in all the period recipes we have for beans that do not specify fava specifically. Oh, one other interesting thing about them is that they come from the area that most of the Oriental spices (e.g. cinnamon, etc. come from and the dried bean looks like a miniature red kidney bean which are mentioned in period sources, IIRC. Mind you, I'm not saying that these were known in Europe but all the circumstantial evidence adds up to the probability that they were known. If they were known it would explain a lot about why Europeans accepted Phaseolus beans so extraordinarily quickly. CYL beans a long and green, have kidney shaped beans and most importantly they taste like Phaseolus beans in both the green state and mature dried form. Considering that CYK beans yield sporadically and present their harvest over a long period of time, it is a small step to realize that they would have been supplanted almost immediately by newly discovered beans from the New World that had a flavor almost exact flavor, superior yield, grew rapidly and enjoyed a relatively short total harvest season. All of this does not add up to the fact that they were known but the evidence available adds up to a likely possiblility. Ras Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 15:25:49 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Fava beans?? (and thanks) At 9:40 AM +0200 12/5/98, Jessica Tiffin wrote: >Please, can one of you American cooks give me an alternative name for fava >beans? Broad beans. I think I've also seen them labelled "fabiolo" or something similiar in Italian or Spanish. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 18:36:12 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Fava beans?? (and thanks) > Considering that CYK beans yield sporadically and present their harvest over a > long period of time, it is a small step to realize that they would have been > supplanted almost immediately by newly discovered beans from the New World > that had a flavor almost exact flavor, superior yield, grew rapidly and > enjoyed a relatively short total harvest season. > > All of this does not add up to the fact that they were known but the > evidence available adds up to a likely possiblility. > > Ras There is a 16th Century (IIRC) painting entitled The Bean Eater which shows what appears to be a farmer eating a bowl of beans. The beans are kidney shaped, white with a black spot at the inside of the bend. I haven't been able to identify them, but I think they are some form of Phaseolus. The painting may support your contention of early adoption. Bear Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 01:15:51 EST From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: SC - Broad (fava) beans more info Bean, Broad -- Vicia faba L. James M. Stephens Broad bean is also known as horse bean, Windsor bean, English bean, tick bean, fava bean, field bean, and pigeon bean. Broad beans are sometimes classified into subspecies according to varieties and their uses in various countries. Thus, subspecies faba var. minor is the beck, tick, or pigeon bean, greatly used for human consumption in the Arabic world, but also used for animal forage, like the horse bean (var. equina ) specifically fed to horses. The broad bean proper, also known as Windsor or straight bean, is var. major . Indian varieties, generally dried and eaten as pulses, are classified as subspecies paucyuga . The origin of broad beans is obscure, but the best information indicates the Mediterranean area. Remains are reported to have been found in Egyptian tombs. DESCRIPTION Broad beans get their name from the seeds which are large and flat. Seeds are variable in size and shape, but usually are nearly round and white, green, buff, brown, purple, or black. Pods are large and thick, but vary from 2-12 inches in length. The plant is an erect, stiff-stemmed, leafy legume reaching 2-5 feet when mature. They are quite different from common beans in appearance because the leaves look more like those of English peas than bean leaves. Small white flowers are borne in spikelets. CULTURE Broad bean is a long, cool season crop, requiring 4-5 months from planting to harvest. In most of Florida it is best to plant from September through March. It is grown as a summer annual in northern climates and as a winter annual in warmer climates. In the tropics it is adapted only at higher altitudes. Flowering is adversely affected by dry, hot weather. USE The parts of the plants used are the seeds as a cooked vegetable. Pick the beans when they are full-sized, but before the pods dry, since they are a green-shell bean. They may also be used as a dry bean for food and livestock feed. Broad beans are very nutritious, containing 23% protein. A word of caution is necessary because where these beans are eaten regularly as the main diet, as in certain tropical countries, a paralytic condition known as favaism has occurred. Seeds are not as widely available as those of other types of beans. Most local garden supply stores in the USA do not carry them. The varieties `Long Pod' and `Giant Three-seeded' are often advertised. Other Varieties Fava Beans. Aquadulce Ipro Banner Ite Bell Masterpiece Bonnie Lad Minica Broad Windsor Primo Brunette Relon Bunyard's Exhibition Suprifin Colossal Tezieroma Express Toto Fava Windsor Hava Witkiem Major Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:12:59 EST From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Fava beans?? melisant@iafrica.com writes: << We do also get the little red kidney beans, which Ras suggested are also mentioned in period sources - which ones? Could you post some recipes?? :> >> The 'little red kidney beans' I mentioned are the dried seeds of Chinese Yard Long beans. These beans are very small averaging only about 1/3 of an inch long. The product labeled 'kidney beans' in the supermarket are 2 to 3 plus times larger and, SFAIK, are a species of Phaseolus therefore New World. Chinese Yard Long Beans are not Phaseolus. And as indicated in my previous post, their use in the Middle Ages is merely conjecture on my part. Until I can find some evidence that clearly shows their use in medieval times, I would be very hesitant about serving them at feast or claiming them as 'period' for western cultures. Ras Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 11:14:55 EST From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Black-eyed peas phlip@bright.net writes: << Are you sure about that, Ras? I was always told that it was the other way around, that black-eyed peas were actually beans. >> Sorry for the confusion. Black-eyed peas are a member of the Vigna spp. They are all commonly referred to as cowpeas. Technically they are , in fact, beans. The legumes have many terms used for their several categories including beans, cowpeas, peas, lupines and other terms depending on the individual chacteristics. While black-eyed peas are in fact a bean, they are more accurately cowpeas when a descriptive term is applied to them. My apologies for the confusion but I was trying to distinguish them from Phaseolus and specific other Vigna spp.at the time. My error :-(. Ras Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 11:15:55 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Black-eyed peas > TerryD@Health.State.OK.US writes: > << Since there are more varieties of beans than I have encountered, I > leave the question of precise identification open for further research. > > Bear >> > > Was there any accompanying text with the illustration that you cited which > could shed any light on the matter? My possible illumination of a long > green bean was merely a decorative element on the page and completely > unrelated to the text. :-( > > Ras It was being used as a decorative illustration. The particular piece is The Bean Eater by Annibale Carracci (1560-1609). Looking at a better reproduction from the wife's collection, the colors run more toward tan, so it could be black-eyed peas which are being eaten. I think the Italian title may be Mangafagioli. If so, according to Root, the fagioli refers specifically to haricot beans. Unfortunately, we still have the problem of artistic license. Thanks for passing on the information about the coloration of cowpeas. While rooting around in my stacks, I came across the information that your Yard Long Beans are Vigna unguiclata sesquipedalis and are also commonly named asparagus beans or Goa beans. Bear Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 04:43:29 -0600 From: allilyn@juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) Subject: Re: SC - Bean experiments Tonight's Play in the Kitchen dealt with some bean experiments. I don't have any Fava beans, so the experiments still have a great gap, but having washed, soaked, rinsed and cooked pea beans, pinto beans, great northern beans, navy beans, chick peas and lentils I don't find much taste difference in any of them. What little there might be would be covered with the onions and garlic that seem ubiquitous to period preparations. Once brayed, they'd look almost the same, too, except for a bit of color difference, and that could be changed with the recommended saffron. Now, all that being so, what is the point of driving for a hour or two to find Fava beans just because they were the ones we know were grown? There may be a moral imperative here, as to being totally period (of course, I'm cooking these on an electric stove and storing in a frig) but when the resulting bean mush is all the same, I feel that the dangers of serving Fava beans to people with a variety of unknown health problems--ancestry, medications, etc.--are not worth the doing. Allison allilyn@juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA Kingdom of Aethelmearc Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:10:27 EST From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Bean experiments allilyn@juno.com writes: << Now, all that being so, what is the point of driving for a hour or two to find Fava beans just because they were the ones we know were grown? There may be a moral imperative here, as to being totally period (of course, I'm cooking these on an electric stove and storing in a frig) but when the resulting bean mush is all the same, I feel that the dangers of serving Fava beans to people with a variety of unknown health problems--ancestry, medications, etc.--are not worth the doing. >> Please don't take this personally but I find there is a very great difference in flavor between all the varieties that you mentioned especailly favas and the other beans. Also there is circumstantial evidence that suggests that several other beans may have been grown in period besides favas, such as yard long beans and black-eyed peas. The gist of your post, if I read it correctly, is that you feel the similarities warrant their use. You also feel that supposed difficulty in obtaining them coupled with a rare allergic reaction to favas also warrant their exclusion. These insignificant factors alone then warrant the substitution of Phaseolus species for known Old World species. Am I correct? If so, my position is that ease of attaining ingredients should not be a factor. Simply use other recipes which do not call for the product, grow your own or, most significantly, have your grocer order them for you. Similarities with New World products sounds like a reasonable reason. However, this observation is based on your personal taste. I can tell the difference between different varieties of green beans, potatoes and tomatoes among other things. To my palette those differences are real enough to cause me to not prepare certain dishes if the variety necessary for the dish is not available. The flavor diffierence between favas, lentils, chickpeas and New World beans is so glaring to a trained palatte that they are as different as licorice, oranges, walnuts and grapes. In addressing the allergy angle, the reaction to favas is EXTREMELY rare and is limited to persons descended from ancestors that come from a very narrow Mediteranian region. If we were to use this argument we would have to leave every known food out of feasts, especially since allergies to nuts, assorted fruits, alliums, dairy products, seafood, fish and wheat are more wisespread than fava allergies. When we come across rare or unusual ingredients in recipes the far better route, IMO, would be to try to obtain the ingredient or forego using the recipe rather than compromise the truth by degrading cookery from a respected art/science to the level of 'slopping the hogs'. Ras Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:02:57 EST From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Lupini Beans?? TerryD@Health.State.OK.US writes: << I can't place them, but it is possible that you are talking about lupine seeds. Lupine or lupin is a generic name for members of the genus Lupinus in the pea family. Lupines have been cultivated since the Bronze Age, so it is very likely they were known in period. Bear >> Lupini are EXTREMELY poisonous if eaten raw and must be thouroughly cooked which removes the poisons. Ras Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:52:04 EST From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: SC - Lupini Beans-update CONRAD3@prodigy.net writes: << Yes these do look similar to what I saw, but the ones I saw were dried beans. >> In my previous post I said that lupines were poisonous and miust be cooked before eating to render the poison harmless. This is only partially correct. Of the 100+ species of lupines, the white lupine has been bred to produce a few non-poisonous varieties. The others are still grown, however, so caution would be the best route when using these beans because variety is not usually listed on the package. Historical additions: Although these legumes grew wild in Italy and Greece and were collected and used by both cultures, they were not cultivated until the Roman empire. They were considered a food for the poor and great cauldrons of them were prepared for the poor on certain festival days. By the beginning of the Italian Renaissance, they disappear from culinary tomes and are not mentioned again until after that period. Toussant-Samat in History of Food talks about them a little. Poisonous properties and a minor amount of history was mentioned in The Visual Food Encyclopedia. Although considered by many in the Current Middle Ages to be at best an Italian ethnic food, the vast majority of gardeners today grow them for there beautiful white, mauve and pink flowers, for which they have been known throughout history. Ras Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:30:13 -0500 (EST) From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: SC - Lupini Beans-update Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 23-Jan-99 SC - Lupini Beans-update by LrdRas@aol.com > for the poor on certain festival days. By the beginning of the Italian > Renaissance , they disappear from culinary tomes and are not mentioned > again until after that period. That is not entirely correct -- both Platina and Castelvetro discuss lupines. Castelvetro says :Our womenfolk and little children nibble at lupin beans between meals during the hottest summer days. They are very bitter but can easily be sweetened by putting them in a canal or deep stream of clear running water, in a thightly fastened bag securd to a pole or hook, so that the current flows right through them. The lupins are left there for two or three whole days, until they have lost their bitterness and become sweet. Them they are peeled and salted and nibbled more as a snack than anything else, the sort of thing that only appeals to pregnant women or silly children. Dried lupins are used to fatten pigs and other animals. (He also mentions that lupin beans can be used to drive away moles and enrich poor soil) Platina doesn't talk about the beans, but does advise cooking and eating the stalks like you would asparagus. From the description, "harsh" and "they are very bitter", it is likely the same plant. toodles, margaret Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:47:00 -0600 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Bean Pie At 12:42 PM -0500 11/10/99, Eric & Mary Ward wrote: >I have just recently signed onto this listserv & am finding it very >educational. Now I have a request for the members of the list, if I >may. > >I have been asked to make a 'bean pie' for a feast at our local >Champions Event. >I have found some recipes in modern cookbooks for it. >What I would like to ask is: > >It has been requested as a dessert. Would a bean pie be a dessert? >Would it be considered 'period' & does anyone have a recipe? Both of these are worked out recipes from the Miscellany To Make a Tarte of Beans A Proper Newe Book of Cookery p. 37/C11 Take beanes and boyle them tender in fayre water, then take theym oute and breake them in a morter and strayne them with the yolckes of foure egges, curde made of mylke, then ceason it up with suger and halfe a dysche of butter and a lytle synamon and bake it. To make short paest for tarte A Proper Newe Book p. 37/C10 Take fyne floure and a curscy of fayre water and a dysche of swete butter and a lyttel saffron, and the yolkes of two egges and make it thynne and as tender as ye maye. 1/2 lb (1 1/4 c) dry fava beans 1/2 c curds (cottage cheese) 6 T butter 4 egg yolks 4 T sugar 4 t cinnamon Crust: 6 threads saffron crushed in 1 t cool water 5-6 T very soft butter 1 c flour 2 egg yolks Put beans in 2 1/2 c of water, bring to boil and let sit, covered, 70 minutes. Add another cup of water, boil about 50 minutes, until soft. Drain beans and mush in food processor. Cool bean paste so it won't cook the yolks. Mix in yolks; add cottage cheese (do not drain); add sugar, butter (soft or in small bits) and cinnamon, then mush it all together to a thick liquid. To make crust, mix saffron water into flour; add egg yolks and mix well (will be crumbly). Add 4 T butter and mix well; add enough of remaining butter to make a smooth paste. (Amount used depends upon softness of butter and warmth of kitchen.) Roll smooth and place in 9" pie plate. Crimp edge. Pour into raw crust and bake at 350ƒ for about 50 minutes (top cracks). Cool before eating. David Friedman Professor of Law Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:43:56 EST From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Lab Rat Redux (cooking exper.) Alia Atlas writes: << Boil green beans (This probably refers to something like fava beans. These are no string beans. String beans are a New World food.) >> Correct about the phaseolus green beans. But as I posted sometime ago, using a picture of an illuminated manuscript I found in a book (source unknown now but when found will be posted), I still am of the opinion that either Chinese yard long beans or, possible young black-eyed peas were the actual 'green beans ' referred to during period. The yard long beans look EXACTLY like the illustration when a photo is placed side by side and in real life. Also the dried beans of the yard long beans is a perfect miniature of what we know of as 'kidney' beans. So there is a possibility that when 'kidney bean' is mentioned in period manuscripts the yard long in a dried state is also meant. I know that this is all circumstantial evidence but I would bet my money that yard longs are the evasive period 'green' and 'kidney' beans. Ras Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:30:43 -0800 From: "Laura C. Minnick" Subject: Re: SC - Lab Rat Redux (cooking exper.) Valoise Armstrong wrote: > Just one quick note. I believe gruene can refer to fresh beans as well > as green beans. > Instead of dried beans, you might try this with fresh ones. The Middle English 'grene' also means 'new', 'untested/untried', even 'raw'. And holds hints of the supernatural. 'Lainie Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:09:08 EST From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Period green beans ringofkings@mindspring.com writes: << Could the asparagus pea or winged lotus (Tetragonorobus purpureus) have been what was described as 'green beans? You eat them pod and all and they do look more like beans than peapods. It is listed in Gerard as the four square velvet pea. Akim >> Absolutely. I only references yard long beans because I grew them a couple of years in a row and they look so much like the 13th century illumination that is down right eerie :-) The period recipes for 'green beans' and 'kidney' beans also work extremely well with this variety in my experience. Is a there are source for a picture of the beans that you mention? I looked in my seed catalogs and can't find them . :-( Ras Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:13:06 -0500 (EST) From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: SC - Suggestions for a mushroom dish? Well, if they can eat fava beans, I've got a nice recipe for a little tartlet -- it's just out of period (1614). Personally, I think this stuff looks and smells hideous, but my husband, who ordinarily won't eat beans at all, kept raiding my kitchen while I was testing this recipe. Original is from The Fruit, Herbs and Vegetables of Italy by Giacomo Castelvetro,1614, trans lated by Gillian Riley: Favetta Here is another recipe, which is somewhat more refined than the other two. Cook the beans in water with salt, and put them in a stone mortar with a little of their cooking liquid, and pound them with a wooden pestle until they are white as snow. Serve this favetta hot with olive oil, pepper and clean, washed raisins. Some use cinnamon as a seasoning instead of pepper. 1 can Fava beans Fresh noodle or pastry dough 1/4 cup raisins + some more pepper, cinnamon to taste Olive oil salt 1 Tbsp honey or to taste Cook fava beans in water with salt until soft. Pound them into a paste with a little of the cooking water "until white as snow". Stir in raisins, spices, honey, and 2 Tbsp olive oil. Take pastry or noodle dough, and cut out rounds. Put a spoonful of puree on each round, add a few more raisins, fold and seal. To cook, heat olive oil in frying pan. Fry on both sides until cooked, drain, sprinkle with sugar, and serve. One can of beans makes enough 20 toodles, margaret Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:40:18 -0500 (EST) From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: SC - Suggestions for a mushroom dish? Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 22-Feb-100 Re: SC - Suggestions for a .. by Bronwynmgn@aol.com > Did I miss something? I can't see anything in the original that suggests the > bean paste should be put into pastry and fried. It looks to me like you > should serve the pureed beans hot with olive oil, pepper or cinnamon, and > raisins. More like refried beans. No, you didn't, I think I did. I've loaned out my copy of the manuscript, but somewhere in the recipe for favetta it says that wrap them in paste and fry them, and that ladies keep these in little boxes for delicate nibbling. Sorry about that. toodles, margaret Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 13:32:13 -0600 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Suggestions for a mushroom dish? Quite a while ago, Lorix wrote: >... Attending the feast will >be a couple of people with a variety of food >preferences and/or allergies. Now I am fine with >most things but I am looking for a protein dish >for a lactose intolerant vegetarian (in this case >meaning no fish or chicken, butter, cheese or >other dairy products). and made it clear later that the dish also had to include no wheat or eggs. Several people suggested beans; here is my favorite period fava bean dish. The greens, sage, and figs give it a more interesting taste than bean dishes usually have. Fried Broad Beans Platina p. 115 (book 7) Put broad beans that have been cooked and softened into a frying pan with soft fat, onions, figs, sage, and several pot herbs, or else fry them well rubbed with oil and, on a wooden tablet or a flat surface, spread this into the form of a cake and sprinkle spices over it. [end of original] 1 c dried fava beans 6-8 T lard 1/2 c+ onions 2/3 c figs (cut in about 8 pieces) 1/2 t sage 1/2 t salt pot herbs: 1 1/2 c spinach, packed 1 1/2 c parsley, packed 1 1/2 c mustard greens, packed 1 1/2 c turnip greens Spices for sprinkling on top: 1/4 t ginger, 1/2 t cinnamon, 1/4 t pepper Bring beans to a boil in 2 1/2 c water, leave to soak about 1/2 hour, then simmer another hour, until soft. Drain the beans, mix the whole mess together and fry it in the lard for 10 minutes, then serve it forth with spices sprinkled on it. This is also good with substantially less greens. The original doesn't specify what greens to use; other greens I have used on occasion include cabbage and dandelion greens, depending on what I could get. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:32:32 -0500 From: david friedman Subject: SC - Fried Broad Beans (was: Suggestions for a mushroom dish?) I posted Platina's fried broad beans recipe and Sue Clemenger responded: >That sounds pretty good. Have you tried both fresh and dried figs? Any >preference? >--Maire NiNuanain I've only done it with dried figs. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:31:59 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Lamb recipe and vegetable stew recipe request > I used dried chickpeas at a feast I did a couple years ago. They never > completely softened up and I soaked them overnight and then cooked them for > several hours. I've been reluctant to use them ever since. > > Mercedes I've had this problem with dried legumes which have been stored for extended periods and have not discovered a satisfactory answer. It may be they need to be soaked longer or be cooked for an extended period or both. I have not had the problem with dried legumes purchased shortly before use from my local health food store which sells them in bulk and has a high turnover. Bear Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:41:04 +1000 From: "Lee-Gwen Booth" Subject: Re: SC - Lamb recipe and vegetable stew recipe request From: Mercedes > I used dried chickpeas at a feast I did a couple years ago. They never > completely softened up and I soaked them overnight and then cooked them > for several hours. I've been reluctant to use them ever since. Simple solution! Invest in a pressure cooker - I would not be without mine. It does amazing things to dry beans and makes the most wonderful brown rice imaginable (what is more, do it properly and you don't even have to drain it. Ready, cooked, soft and delicious, and in its own serving dish in about 20 minutes! Gwynydd of Culloden Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:09:11 -0400 From: "Alderton, Philippa" Subject: Re: SC - Lamb recipe and vegetable stew recipe request Mercedes skrev: >I used dried chickpeas at a feast I did a couple years ago. They never completely softened up and I soaked them overnight and then cooked them for several hours. I've been reluctant to use them ever since. < I ran into the same problem a few years ago with black beans- I boiled them off and on for almost a week before they were soft enough to eat. It turned out that they were from a very old batch, and they'd just dried far more than we're used to dealing with from the store. I suspect this might be what had happened to your chick peas, as I've had it happen to a lesser degree with other dried beans. The trouble with moderately exotic dried beans is that their shelf life is indefinite, and if you combine very slow rotation of stock, with an impulse buy, where you get them and keep them around for an extended period of time, looking for a recipe, you'll get that extra drying problem. My suggestion would be to try another package from a store where you're reasonably sure that they have a good turnover- either a ME store, or a chain in an area where you have either a lot of Mediterranean ethnic groups or upscale Yuppie types, and see how they work. Another alternative is to buy the canned variety- just keep in mind, that they're already well-salted, and you don't need to add more. Phlip Philippa Farrour Caer Frig Southeastern Ohio Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:12:12 +1000 From: "Lee-Gwen Booth" Subject: Re: SC - Lamb recipe and vegetable stew recipe request One other hint - do not add salt to the cooking water - it means tough beans! Gwynydd Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:44:55 EDT From: Etain1263@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Lamb recipe and vegetable stew recipe request phlip@morganco.net writes: << The trouble with moderately exotic dried beans is that their shelf life is indefinite, and if you combine very slow rotation of stock, with an impulse buy, where you get them and keep them around for an extended period of time, looking for a recipe, you'll get that extra drying problem. >> Even "normal" dried beans are several years old! I learned this when I lived in Michigan..where they grow a great many of the "navy" and "great northern" beans for market! someone gave me a large bag of "fresh" dried beans...from that year - and they cooked up almost immediately! Wow! What a difference! The farmers sell to the grain elevators...who store until they have enough to transport to the packagers....who package and store until the prices are "right"...sometimes it's a year or more. Etain Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:08:27 -0400 From: Christine A Seelye-King Subject: SC - Tough Beans? > One other hint - do not add salt to the cooking water - it means > tough beans! > Gwynydd This was something my late husband used to say, and I never understood it. If your beans are 'tough', then they aren't cooked enough. If you don't salt the water as the beans are soaking it up, you will never get the salt into the beans, just in the fluid surrounding it. So, how do you end up with tough beans? Sounds more like "tough noogies" to me. Christianna Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 23:04:53 EDT From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: SC - Chickpeas mercedes@geotec.net writes: << I used dried chickpeas at a feast I did a couple years ago. They never completely softened up and I soaked them overnight and then cooked them for several hours. I've been reluctant to use them ever since. Mercedes >> Dried chickpeas take longer to cook the older they are. I made the Brodo using canned chickpeas and it was fantastic. The difference between canned and dried is that you don't have to precook them. They are done. Before the fresh/unprocessed crowd chimes in, there is little if any difference between canned chickpeas and those made from scratch. The ingredients listed were chickpeas, water and salt. I used the broth as part of the recipe and used additional salt to taste. Ras Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 04:04:23 EDT From: CBlackwill@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Lamb recipe and vegetable stew recipe request piglet006@globalfreeway.com.au writes: > One other hint - do not add salt to the cooking water - it means tough > beans! > Gwynydd Actually, this is little more than a wide spread myth, I'm happy to say. Adding salt to beans while they are cooking does not affect their tenderness in any appreciable way. There may be some tiny chemical reaction, but it is unnoticeable in the finished product. Salt away, and eat the beans when they are tender. Balthazar of Blackmoor Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 14:50:13 -0500 From: "catwho@bellsouth.net" Subject: Re: SC - Chickpeas > Dried chickpeas take longer to cook the older they are. I made the Brodo > using canned chickpeas and it was fantastic. The difference between canned > and dried is that you don't have to precook them. They are done. Before the > fresh/unprocessed crowd chimes in, there is little if any difference between > canned chickpeas and those made from scratch. The ingredients listed were > chickpeas, water and salt. I used the broth as part of the recipe and used > additional salt to taste. Actually the difference is cost. I can buy a pound of dry chick peas for less than a dollar and when cooked I have my large crock pot full. I can buy a 10-1/2 oz can of cooked chickpeas for around $1.29 When weighing the two options for making a meal for a large group, I would prefer to go with dry just for pure cost effectiveness. Melbrigda Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 00:32:26 EDT From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Chickpeas catwho@bellsouth.net writes: << Actually the difference is cost. I can buy a pound of dry chick peas for less than a dollar and when cooked I have my large crock pot full. I can buy a 10-1/2 oz can of cooked chickpeas for around $1.29 When weighing the two options for making a meal for a large group, I would prefer to go with dry just for pure cost effectiveness. Melbrigda >> I can buy #10 cans for $2.29 (a gallon). I would say that in view of quantity and fuel costs that is a pretty good deal. :-) Ras Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 15:38:56 -0700 From: lilinah@earthlink.net Subject: SC - Three Easy Pieces, or Verjus Redux The Shire of Crosston, with whom i camp, has a period pot-luck feast at every Crown Tournament (3 per year in the West). There are always guests, so there are around 2 dozen diners or so, and frequently other folks show up looking for food and we feed them, as well. Generally, there's plenty. At The West Kingdom March Crown Tourney just passed, I made three dishes from Barbara Santich's "The Original Mediterranean Cuisine" for the Saturday night feast. I didn't use her "redactions" for any of them, just referred to the originals and the translations. VERJUS REDUX I have now used the Fusion brand Napa Valley Verjus that i bought from Whole Foods and i thought it was quite nice. I tasted a spoonful of it before pouring some into the dish i was cooking - i'm weird, i probably could have drunk a juice glass of it - it was tart and fruity, but not bitter. I used it in a recipe for garbanzo beans cooked in almond milk. This was not the unpleasant white grape Fusion brand verjus that Niccolo di Francesco wrote about. I used the Fusion red verjus, which was a lovely purplish red color and was neither unpleasantly tart nor at all bitter, as Niccolo says the Fusion white was. I don't have the recommended Navarro brand to compare it with, but the Fusion red was quite good. PIECE ONE Ciurons Tendres Ab Let de Melles (from Sent Sovi) ORGINAL: Si vols apperellar ciurons tendres ab let de amelles, se ffa axi: Prin los ciurons, e leva'ls be. E ages let de amelles, e mit-los a coura ab la let e ab holi e ab sal; e met-hi seba escaldade ab aygua bulent. E quant deuran esser cuyt, met-hi jurvert e alfabegua e moradux e d'altres bones epicies [should be 'erbes'] e un poc de gingebre e de gras. E quant hi metras los ciurons, sien levats ab aygua calda, que tentost son cuyts. TRANS: If you want to prepare tender chickpeas with almond milk, do it thus: take the chickpeas and wash them well. And take almond milk and set them to cook with the milk and with oil and with salt; and put in it onion scalded with boiling water. And when they should be cooked, put in them parsley and basil and marjoram and other good spices [should be 'herbs'] and a little ginger and verjus. And when you add the chick peas, wash them with hot water that they should cook more quickly. [NOTE: the insert "should be 'herbs' is from Santich's book, i didn't add it. I cooked the recipe with herbs and no additional spices.] WHAT IT DID: (1) I used canned garbanzos, rather than soaking and boiling my own. I've cooked garbanzos from scratch, and while they are, hmmm, mealier (a good quality) than canned, which are sometimes a bit slimy (i usually rinse them), i haven't noticed a vast difference in the quality of a dish made with one or the other. (2) I bought organic, whole, unroasted almonds to make almond milk, but i didn't have time to make it. I was going to make it Thursday night and bring it in a bottle, but I was appliqueing and embroidering my consort's fighting surcote as well as hand-sewing a couple wool tunics for myself, so i didn't get around to it. When it was time to cook, i used boxed organic almond milk that i'd bought to drink - it has a little, very little brown rice sweetener and some vegetable thickeners (guar, xanthan, carageenen, and locust bean gums). But not so much that it is a vastly different creature from homemade almond milk, which I would have preferred, but i don't think the dish suffered greatly. I dumped the drained garbanzos into my kettle, then poured in enough almond milk to cover (i wasn't trying to make soup) and added some salt and a little olive oil. While it was beginning to heat, i finely chopped a small onion and added it without first scalding, as i didn't bring enough pans. After warming and stirring, i began to add other seasonings. I added white pepper (for personal reasons i don't use black pepper) and dried ginger powder. It's an amazingly good dried ginger powder that i bought at the health food store. When i tasted the liquid it seemed as if i'd used too much ginger and white pepper - it was quite "hot" - - and while that doesn't bother me, i know some people at the feast don't like food that's too "piquant". But after i let it cook a bit, then tasted again with chickpeas in my tasting spoon, it was fine. I cooked it until the onion was tender and mild. I had bought fresh organic herbs. At this point i added lots of chopped flat-leaf parsley and fresh basil. I didn't see fresh marjoram at the store, so i tossed in fresh thyme and oregano, going easy on the oregano so it wouldn't take over. When the herbs were cooked and the broth was well flavored, i added the verjus, stirred to distribute, then left it to warm for a minute, and removed the pot from the fire. Personally, i'd like to have added more verjus, as i like strong flavors. But it was fine, adding a bit of tang to the dish. PIECE TWO Cauli Verdi con Carne (from Libro della Cocina) PIECE THREE On Preparing a Salad of Several Greens (from de Honesta Voluptate) - --------------- I picked these dishes because they were relatively quick and easy to prepare at a busy event, yet authentic. I was actually done cooking before the others who cooked on site. (i mention this because i'm usually still cooking when everyone is already eating) Anahita al-shazhiyya Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 07:31:21 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: An Test was Re: SC - Truck Crops > Bear wrote: > >BTW, Root also says, "...fagioli refers specifically to the New World bean." > >Fagioli also refers to the black-eyed pea, which is definitely Old World in > >origin. > > When were black eyed peas introduced, if ever, to Europe? Were they > eaten in North Africa in Medieval times, i.e., would they have been > eaten in North Africa after 600 and before 1600? I've got this bag of > 'em in the freezer... The term "phaseolus" from which from which "fagioli" is derived appears in Roman writings. From context it appears to refer to kidney shaped beans which are distinct from "faba" or fava beans (Vicia faba). While this does not preclude some variety of fava being the bean referenced, it does demonstrate that the Romans acknowledged a difference. The term appears in Roman writings after the beginning of major trade with Africa which increases the probability that they were writing about some form of the black-eyed pea. The black-eyed pea (Vigna unguiculata var. sinensis (IIRC)) is a bean of Asian origin with several major varieties, including the yard-long bean (V. unguiculata var. sesquipedalis). Phaseolus likely refers to any of these related plants. For visual evidence of their use at the end of the 16th Century, take a look at Annibale Carracci's The Bean Eater (Il Mangafagiolo). It should be noted that while the black-eyed pea was eaten in Italy within period, and probably before, there is no evidence I have encountered to show it being used elsewhere in Europe. > Anahita al-shazhiyya Bear Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 09:30:34 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: SC - Phaseolus recipes Platina 7.14 On the Kidney Bean There is the kidney bean, phaseolus or phasellus, which Virgil calls lowly. Apuleius writes that this name comes from the island of Phasellus, not far from Mt. Olympus. Kidney beans have warm and damp force. Their use lubricates the bowels and is fattening, moves the urine, and is good for chest and lungs but fills the head with gross and bad humors and brings on dreams, and indeed bad ones. Its cold and harmfulness can be reduced to some degree by sprinkling with majoram, pepper, and mustard. After [eating] kidney beans, it is necessary to drink pure wine. Platina 7.33 Dish Made from Peas Let peas come to a boil with carob. When they are taken from the water, put in a frying pan with bits of salt meat, especially that balanced between lean and fat. I would wish, however, that the bits had been fried a little beforehand. Then add a bit of verjuice, a bit of must, or some sugar and cinnamon. Cook broad beans in the same way. Recipe 7.33 is problematical. The Latin text in Milham states, "Hoc item modo et phaseolos coquito." Milham translates this as "cook broad beans in the same way." Elsewhere in the text, broad beans appear as "fabam" and kidney beans appear as "phaseolus." The pattern of translation suggests that the "broad beans" of this recipe should be translated as "kidney beans." As the two preceding recipes are for broad beans, it is possible that this apparent translation error is a printer's typographical error. According to a footnote, the recipe is taken from Martino and was entitled in his work, "Per fava li piselli fritti nella fava menata." Said title suggests that broad beans are meant rather than kidney beans. Bon Chance Bear Edited by Mark S. Harris beans-msg 44