beans-msg - 2/2/15

Medieval beans. Fava beans. Garbanzo beans. Recipes.

NOTE: See also the files: fava-beans-msg, peas-msg, vegetables-msg, vegetarian-msg, salads-msg, seeds-msg, soup-msg, grains-msg, bread-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that
I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some
messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium.
These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with
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Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  Lord Stefan li Rous
    mark.s.harris at motorola.com            stefan at florilegium.org
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From Jeff.Peck at hubert.rain.comMon Feb 26 12:21:04 1996
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 01:23:00 -0800
From: Jeff Peck <Jeff.Peck at hubert.rain.com>
To: antir at mail.orst.edu
Subject: Re: Hummos recipe<musical fruit>

     I have found in the past that if you use dried beans, and soak
  overnight in water with 1tbs of baking soda (rinse before cooking)
  it takes away a LARGE portion of the gassiness.
                           Lyulf


Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 18:06:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Catherine deSteele <desteele at netcom.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Beans are period...sort of.

Based on our research, there were a couple of period beans - fava 
beans, which were known in Roman times and are still eaten in the 
Meditteranean today. The other period bean was a now-extinct version of 
the broad bean - you can substitute the Italian broad bean for it. Be 
careful serving fava beans - some people have adverse reactions to it.
They also consumed the pods of fenugreek, known in period as "greek hay", 
and still used extensively in Meditteranean and Afghani cooking today.
Vewgetarianism in the Middle Ages was a risky practice - few beans or 
legumes, no corn, so options for protein were seriously limited - mainly 
nuts, eggs, and dairy products. With lack of refrigeration, not a good 
lifestyle choice...then.
                     Catherine deSteele


From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:29:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Mediterranean Feast

I grew them as a project this year to see how they would do in our somewhat
warm and humid climate (Central Ansteorra) but got them into the ground
late for a heavy crop.  They are still producing so I will have a small but
hearty seed crop for next year, since I started with just a few.  There is
not as much information on growing them as regular dry beans or green
beans.  Most of what I found were British publications.  They are a very
pretty plant -- the flowers are white and purplish black. I have a couple
of catalogs at home that sell seeds if you want to try them.  Taste wise
the dry beans have a floury texture, I like.  There are several Roman
recipes featuring favas that are very good so you might check them out.
        You can get fava beans at health food stores as well as  specialty
and eastern markets.

Clare St. John


From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:36:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes

At 2:59 PM -0500 6/6/97, Peters, Rise J. wrote:
>What other sorts of beans were available in Europe?  (I don't guess I could
>possibly be lucky enough that pinto beans were .... or any kind of "brown
>beans"?)

Fava beans, garbanzos, lentils. I don't think any of our standard
beans--pinto, lima, kidney, etc.--are old world.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:36:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes

>There is a good recipe out of 700 Years of English Cooking. Since I don't
>have it here and you need it now, I'll summarize and you can experiment if
>you want to. Its Fried Beans and Onions. Saute onions in oil, add kidney
>beans, ginger, cinnamon and another sweet spice. Heat. The onions, beans
>and sweet spices make a tastey mix and the dish is good hot or cold.

1. Kidney beans are from the new world.

2. I don't know 700 years of English Cooking well enough to identify the
recipe, but here are some somewhat similar things; the last of the three is
the closest to what you describe. All three recipes are from the
_Miscellany_, available online.

Makke
Form of Cury p. 41/A21

Take drawn beans and sethe them well. Take them up of the water and cast
them in a mortar. Grind them all to doust till they be white as any milk,
chawf a little red wine, cast thereamong in the grinding, do thereto salt,
leshe it in dishes, then take onions and mince them small and sethe them in
oil till they be all brown. And flourish the dish therewith. And serve it
forth.

1 cup pea beans, dry	2 large onions
1/2 c red wine	enough oil to fry the onions
1 t salt

Soak the beans overnight then simmer 4-6 hours until tender. Chop up the
onions fairly fine. Drain the beans, use a food processor to puree. Heat
the wine and add it. Put the beans in each dish, put the fried onions over
them. Broad beans (fava beans) would be more authentic than pea beans, but
we have not yet tried them in this recipe.
- ------
Fried Broad Beans
Platina p. 115 (book 7)

Put broad beans that have been cooked and softened into a frying pan with
soft fat, onions, figs, sage, and several pot herbs, or else fry them well
rubbed with oil and, on a wooden tablet or a flat surface, spread this into
the form of a cake and sprinkle spices over it.

1 c dried fava beans 	2/3 c figs (cut in 	pot herbs: 	1 1/2 c
spinach, packed
6-8 T lard	   about 8 pieces)		1 1/2 c parsley, packed
1/2 c+ onions 	1/2 t sage 		1 1/2 c mustard greens, packed
	1/2 t salt		1 1/2 c turnip greens

Spices for sprinkling on top: 1/4 t ginger, 1/2 t cinnamon, 1/4 t pepper

Bring beans to a boil in 2 1/2 c water, leave to soak about 1/2 hour, then
simmer another hour, until soft. Drain the beans, mix the whole mess
together and fry it in the lard for 10 minutes, then serve it forth with
spices sprinkled on it.  This is also good with substantially less greens.
- ------
Benes yfryed
Curye on Inglysch p. 141 (Forme of Cury no. 189)

Take benes and seeth hem almost til they bersten.  Take and wryng out the
water clene.  Do =DDerto oynouns ysode and ymynced, and garlec therwith; frye
hem in oile o=DDer in grece, & do =DDerto powdour douce, & serue it forth.

2 15 oz cans fava beans	3 T olive oil
1 small onion chopped	poudre douce (2 t sugar, 3/8 t cinnamon, 3/8 t ginger)
3 cloves garlic (1 oz), smashed & minced

Drain and wash the beans well, draining thoroughly. Chop onions, crush and
mince garlic.  Simmer onions and garlic in 1/2 c water for 3 minutes,
drain. Heat the frying pan with oil on a medium heat, add onions and garlic
and beans (will splatter--be careful), cook, stirring frequently, 10
minutes. Then add pouder douce, mix well, cook 2 more minutes, and serve.
Remember to keep stirring.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 16:33:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes

<< What is a pea bean? >>

 Acording to my currently limited resources pea beans are navy beans. It also
says "have been grown in Europe and elsewhere since the discovery of
America.". I would suspect that these were one of the 1st beans introduced to
Europe after America's dicovery although I do not have verification of that
hypothesis.

Lord Ras (Uduido at aol.com)


From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 16:26:52 GMT
Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes

On Fri, 6 Jun 1997 2:59 PM -0500,  Peters, Rise J wrote:
>What other sorts of beans were available in Europe?  (I don't guess I could
>possibly be lucky enough that pinto beans were .... or any kind of "brown
>beans"?)

I believe it has already been mentioned that the beans known to have
existed throughout most of out studied time period are fava, garbanzo
and lentils. In the 16th century there are a few more that were added
by import from the New World, so you'll have to decide when and where
your recipe is used from. 

he best source I have on what was available in beans is (again)
Castelvetro's "The Fruit, Herbs and Vegetables of Italy". Here he
lists Broad Beans (or Fava/Faba), Turkish beans (these are not from
Turkey, but Castelvetro terms them such to mean they are "foreign",
mainly New World in origin) which are described as "white or flecked
with pink and tan." They also "grow very tall" and " have [a]...lovely
green foliage". The translator, Gillian Riley, proclaims in he
glossary that these are Runner Beans, which we also call French
Beans". 

He also lists another kind of bean, unnamed, that are "smaller, white
or faintly pinkish with a black spot in the middle." Kind of like a
black-eyed pea, apparently. Then he lists Dwarf Beans, which are he
states are native or domestic to Italy and are sown in large
quantities in wheat-fields after the harvest. "They do not grow high"
and he states they eat "the cooked tender green pods as a salad, and
do the same with the shelled fresh beans."

Chickpeas are mentioned and are mentioned as being seen in white and
red forms, the red being considered the better variety. Lentils are
also mentioned and he proclaims them as "one of the most, if not the
most, unhealthy vegetables one can eat, except for the broth, which,
they say, is a miraculous drink for children with smallpox. In general
lentils are only eaten by the lowest of the low." Those Italians sure
have a way with words, eh? ;-)

As a side note he also mentions peas (no further explanation as to any
particular kind or description of pea) and the Grass Pea, or vetch,
which, he says, tastes rather like Chickpeas. He dos state of theses
that "they are considered a rather common food, for they generate
wind, bad blood and considerable melancholy." Gillian Riley notes of
Grass peas that the "grew wild in Italy and were eaten a lot by the
Romans, but have fallen out of use, which is just as well, as they are
poisonous, even after a preliminary roasting, which is no doubt why
they were said to generate 'wind, bad blood and considerable
melancholy'."

Also of note is that Castelvetro discusses Lupin beans, but I do not
know if this is an actual bean or not. He mainly talks about
sweetening the bean by putting it in clear running water for 2 or 3
days. They are then "peeled and salted and nibbled more as a snack
than anything else, the sort of thing that appeals to pregnant women
or silly children. Dried lupins are used to fatten pigs and other
animals." Gillian Riley states these have been grown in Italy and the
Middle East since the times of the Romans.
So runner beans could probably be used, at least after the mid-late
16th Century. I'm not sure what the black-eyed pea looking bean is. It
could be a black-eyed pea, for all I know. (Not like I have this great
horticultural knowledge, or anything. I know diddley about such
things). 

Honos Servio,
Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra
(mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX)
zarlor at acm.org


Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:22:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Sharon L. Harrett" <afn24101 at afn.org>
Subject: Re:  SC - Green Beans

On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Terry Nutter wrote:

> Hi, Katerine here.  Ceridwen quotes John Gerard on kidney beans.  Sounds
> interesting!  I haven't tripped over any references to them in 13th to 15th
> Century cuisine, but maybe I'm looking too early.  Can you tell us what his 
> dates are?
> 
> -- Katerine/Terry

	Hi Katerine,

	Geradrd's Herbal was first published in 1597, late for us but still
within the realm of Renaissance cookery , by my standards anyway. I have the
facsimile edition published by Dover, and have spent hours trying to figure
out some of his sources and see if I can get any  time frame as to the
import or common use of the plants he describes. Those from the New World he
usually specifies when and where they came from, but not always. There is an
introductory chapter in which he describes many Herbals preceding this one,
by date and author, but no indication if he quotes from these.

	I won't be so bold as to hold up this book as documentation for
anything before the lifetime of Gerard,whose book was based on the Dodoens
herbal of 1583, and was updated and revised by Thomas Johnson in 1633. I do
not have to hand any horticultural encyclopedia which would tell me
definitively whether the beans he refers to were actually favas, or kidney,
or some other .

	I have seen mention in Le Menagier and a couple others of preparing
beans in their "cods", though and deduce from that , that the people of the
Late Middle Ages ate beans fresh from the plant at times, and not always
ripe or dried. Though this does not allow me to assume those beans are the
same as our "green beans", they may have been similar.

	My gardening experience and the seed catalogs I recieve lead me to
believe that even what we know as "heirloom" vegetables, (open-pollinated,
old varieties) cannot be traced back more than 75-100 years. Our modern
varieties have been bred for tenderness, appearance, selective harvest
times, tolerance to adverse weather, resistance to disease and insects, etc.
For a definate answer I suppose we would have to look to archaeology, or
plant historians.

	OOHHH!... Just looked in "medieval English Gardens" In a treatise on
necessities for the country man, he says that one needs a small table on
which to mince or cut up vegetables, including beans in the pod! (12th
c)along with shelled beans, cabbage, leeks, onoins,lentils, peas, and
millet. (Neckham)   Hmmmmmmmm......

Comments, anyone?

Ceridwen


Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:01:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Sharon L. Harrett" <afn24101 at afn.org>
Subject: Re:  SC - Green Beans

Greetings All from Ceridwen
	First I'd like to tell you all how much I have enjoyed this past
week's postings! The challenges, whether they be simple or complex, have
something for all of us! They have been wonderful!!!!.

	Comment on the Green Bean thing... John Gerard mentions 11 different
types of "Kidney Beans", with different characteristics of growing and
flowering, Friuting, etc. He says that 9 of those are common in English
gardens and are eaten both shelled (ripe) and " the friut and cods of Kidney
Beans boiled together before they be ripe, and buttered, and so eaten with
their cods, are exceeding delicate meat, and do not engender winde as the
other Pulses do" In the next paragraph, he goes on to describe the
praparation of the  unripe beans, including de-stringing them after being
parboiled.

	As for the Botanical evidence, I'm not entirely sure when and by
whom Latin classification was standardized, but Gerard names those beansas
follows;
	1.  Phaseolus Albus - Garden or White kidney bean
	2. Phaseolus Niger - Black Kidney bean
	3. Smilax hortensus rubra - Red Kidney bean
	4. Smilax hortensus flava - Pale yellow Kidney Bean
	5. Phaseolus peregrinus fructu minore alba - Indian Kidney Bean with
a small white fruit
	6.Phaseolus peregrinus fructa minore frutescens - Indian Kidney Bean
with a small red fruit
	7. Phaseolus prergrinus augustifolius - Narrow leafed Kidnay bean
(with a small red fruit)
	8.Phaseolus Brasilianus - Kidney Bean of Brazil
	9. Phaseolus Egyptanicus - Parti-coloured bean of Egypt.

As an aside, he says that there is a bean called the "scarlet bean" which is
grown in a garden he knows of, that the pods have little hairs on them that
sting like nettles, possibly from the East Indies, but not eaten.
	He also discusses Lupines (boiles till the bitterness is gone, and
eaten with pickle), peas and lentils, garden beans (fava major hortensis)
and black beans (not eaten)

	Anyone care to take a stab at comparing Gerard's beans to ours,
horticulturally or otherwise?

Ceridwen


Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:11:49 -0400
From: "Sharon L. Harrett" <ceridwen at commnections.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Cassoulet

	Yep, I have Gerard's... and we did discuss this a few months back, but
anyway, here goes.
	Gerard states that there are 9 kinds of "kidney bean" known to him (and
quotes from other sources as well). These include some from India,
Egypt, and Brazil, as well as those grown in earlier times in the
Mediterranean. His illustrations resemble our lima bean far more than a
kidney bean, being flat ovals, and the pods are flat also with a
distinct string along the straight side. He says they come in several
colors, white, black, red, purple, and orange. The plants and flowers
resemble our lima bean much more than a string or shell bean, having
narrow leaves well apart on the stalks.
	Among the other legumes, he has lentils(2 kinds) garden peas (6 kinds)
several edible vetches, and the "garden bean" or fava, with 3 kinds
being known (white, yellow, and black)- the black being grown
ornamentally only, not eaten.
 	There are no references to what we have now... string beans, although
he says that the favas and "kidney" beans may be cooked immature, in
their pods, and dressed with vinegar and salt as a "daintie meat"

Ceridwen



Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 16:06:55 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Cassoulet

Certainly there must have been beans of various kinds imported from
places like India and China to the Middle East, other than the chick
pea, the lentil, and the fava. The soy bean certainly was cultivated in
Asia very early in our period, and sooner. Other candidates are things
like mung beans (more or less a tiny variety of soybean) and several
varieties of chick pea that appear to have been more or less unknown to
most Europeans.

However, we don't really know that the kidney beans Gerard refers to,
are the String Bean Group from South America. Kidney bean is a perfectly
natural nomenclature based on shape, and it would be perfectly
acceptable to call even favas by that name.

As is often the case, the more you dig, the more confusing things
become...

Adamantius 



Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:35:22 -0800
From: "Melinda Shoop" <mediknit at nwinfo.net>
To: "SCA Arts" <SCA-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Beans in a Period Recipe

I am looking at recreating a recipe from Thomas Dawson's "The Good
Huswife's Jewell", published in London in 1596.

In a recipe titled, "To Defend Humors"  the reader is instructed:

"Take beanes, the rinde or the upper skin being pulled of, & bruse them and
mingle them with the white of an Egge, and make it sticke to the Temples,
it keepeth backe humors flowing to the eyes."

I want to know what type of bean available to the shooper today would match
the bean spoken of in the recipe, or, if this is not available, what could
be used instead.  Any other comments about this recipe, the humor theory,
or the role of the ingredients in the recipe would be welcome, if you are
familar with this work.

Thank you in advance for your help!

In Gratitude,
Lady Fiametta La Ghianda/Melinda Shoop


Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:54:37 -0500 (EST)
From: DianaFiona at aol.com
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Beans in a Period Recipe

<< 
 I want to know what type of bean available to the shoper today would match
 the bean spoken of in the recipe, or, if this is not available, what could
 be used instead.  Any other comments about this recipe, the humor theory,
 or the role of the ingredients in the recipe would be welcome, if you are
 familar with this work.
  >>

     Well the bean part is easy---they were using fava beans. These are one
of the few old-world bean varieties, along with lentils and garbanzos
(chickpeas), plus the peas that our modern green peas descended from. Favas
look rather like limas, and tend to have a rather thick, tough skin that
fastidious cooks will often remove. It's not hard, just rather tedious---you
cook the beans lightly, cool them enough to handle, and squirt them out of
the skins. Then finish cooking and seasoning. This process is for the fresh
ones, if you can find them (Look in gourmet markets and stores that cater to
a Middle Eastern or Mediteranian community.), but with the dried ones the
pre-cooking soak will often loosen the skins enough to let you remove them.
That said, I rarely bother, since the skins don't usually offend my tastes.
The exception was some fresh ones that I helped prepare for a feast last
summer. The feastcrat had managed to find a source for frozen fresh favas,
that we used to make the Benes Yfryed  from Forme of Cury (Boil the beans,
drain, fry with chopped onions and garlic, sprinkle with powder douce [sweet
spices]). But either the variety was particularly tough or the frying caused
the problem, but they were a bit much even for me. And microwaving the
leftovers I got to take home *really* didn't help............ ;-)
    I can find several varieties of canned or dried favas in my local Indian
market, so I don't imagine they are *too* hard to get these days if you live
in a large enough place to have ethnic groceries. Now, if I can just manage
to get across town soon---I running low on several things from there! ;-)

Ldy Diana Fiona O'Shera
Vulpine Reach, Meridies
(Chattanooga, TN)


Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:36:06 -0600 (CST)
From: Todd Lewis <telewis at comp.uark.edu>
To: SCA-ARTS list <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: Re- Beans in a Period Recip

I came across an interesting passage in a chronicle entitled
L'Estoire de la Guerre Sainte, printed in Edward Noble Stone, trans., 
Three Old French Chronicles of the Crusades (Seattle:  University of
Washington, 1939).  The chronicle details the campaign of King Richard in 
Third Crusade.  Describing a period of famine, the passage reads,
	"Back he came and they ate beans, being well-nigh mad with
hunger . . . A certain thing was sold in the host of God which they called
carob-beans.  These were sweet to the taste, and a man could get a mess of
them for one silver penny; and they were well worth the seeking.  With
these and with little nuts were many folk kept alive. . ." (p.65)
	A note in the text describes "carob-beans" as "Saint John's bread,
Ceratonia Siliqua."  I don't have much experience in medieval cooking, but
perhaps this is what is referred to in medieval recipes calling for beans.

	Lord Henry Percivale Kempe
	Shire-March of Grimfells
	Calontir


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:56:11 -0500 (EST)
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - green beans

<<  why would you say green beans were one of the items quickly
 and extensively used after discovery? >>

First, I would refer you to the posts from this list a while back when we
were having the great bean debate. ;-)

Secondly, we have a date, according to Toussaint-Samat of 1528, when seeds
were given to Canon Piero Valeriano by Pope Clement VII, who recieved tas a
gift from the New World.

The Canon planted the beans in pots and carefully noted germination rates,
growth patterns, etc. He commented speciffically on how productive they were.
Some of the resulting crop was used to prepare a dish which usually used
favas. The result was pronounced delicious and the beans were called fagioli.
The use of these beans swept throughout N. Italy,

At this time the Canon persuaded Catherine de Medici to include a bag of bean
seed in her dowry. The bean was loved by all and due to it's productivity was
only a fleeting "exotic" soon being grown all over Provence and other regions
where it ultimately (My Note: probably within 10 years) was known as "poor
man's food". Quote: "It's reputation as a cheap stomach filler guarenteed its
popularity". 

IMHO, other sources and conjecture from eating habits support the supposition
supports the idea that green beans as opposed to dried beans per se were
eaten rather extensively because a handful of green beans is one serving.
Those same beans shelled as dry would amount to a mere taste. As  researchers
into food history we, as moderns, must be ever vigilant to remember that
until recently in history man's society was agricultural. Thusly, the quick
dispersal of a food product that was prolific and good for eating in several
stages of growth would have been, and indeed was, quickly accomplished.

Ras 


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:14:53 -0500 (EST)
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - green beans

<< Pineapple, I can see. They are sweet which was craved. They are 
 unusual which makes them ideal for gardens of exotics.
 
 Same goes for peppers and perhaps for Turkeys. They fill a percieved
 need.
 
 But green beans?>>

As noted in my previous post, the percieved need was filling bellies. The
planting of a single seed and harvest mutiple seeds only a few weeks later
would have assured it's place in the garden. With an average household
(including servants) of 20 mouths to feed this shouldn't be too hard to
grasp. :-)

To add to the green bean post> Jane Grigsom in her "Vegetable Book"  (as does
Toussaint-Samat clearly staes that the word "haricot" as used by the English
meant dried beans while SAME word in France denoted "green beans".

Such a dual purpose food which had the advantage of looking very similar to
an already known product, favas, would not have had the problem of exceptance
that such foods as tomatoes or potatoes would have (and did).

In storage dried beans keep very well while dried favas loose their flavor
and become rather insipid. As green beans they could have been eaten
throughtout the growing season and yet would have provided a crop of seed for
next year.

Add the ability to be substituted for favas in any recipe and thereby
producing a far more palatable product, it is not at all surprising that it
rapidly gained acceptance. When climate is taken into account, the use of
dried beans by the English and green beans by the French is readily apparent
as it would have been easy for the French to produce two or even three crops
a year where England would have produced one.

<< Stefan li Rous >>

Ras


Subject Re: SC - green beans 
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 18:03:24 MST
From: DUNHAM Patricia R <Patricia.R.DUNHAM at ci.eugene.or.us>
To: "Mark.S Harris" <rsve60 at msgphx1>, sca-cooks at Ansteorra.ORG

Having grown pole beans last summer and favas and Jacob's cattle beans
(one of the kinds you dry and make soup from) this summer...

The seeds you plant pole beans from look about a quarter the size, but
the same general bean-shape as a fava...  (about 1.5 times the size of a
seed pea-- we also had regular peas and sugar pods, both years).  I
don't think pole-bean seeds are sold for anything besides growing more
pole beans, to eat the flesh of, but that's a very casual opinion.   The
seeds you would see in frozen or canned green beans would be of an
immature size.  I think the kinds of beans you use for baked beans and
chili and so forth are not mature green-bean seeds, but types that are
grown specifically for the dried seeds, like the Jacob's cattle (an old
variety, name comes from they're brown and white speckled).  (Yeah, I
got inspired by John Thorne's latest book; I MAY have enough for one
batch of baked beans 8-).)

To a casual observer (me), green beans and favas appear quite similar
when growing.  We didn't stake the favas because we didn't understand
they'd try to grow to 6 feet!   I think the leaves are generally similar
and the favas and pole beans both have climbing tendrils... the pole
beans' tendrils seem to be much sturdier and more active than the favas.
The fava pods are about twice the size of a green bean, same length,
but, well, --broader-- , and flatter rather than green-bean round...
they -look- like there'd be lima-shaped beans in them...  And before the
fava pods mature and start to dry, they're green.

The foliage of  the pole beans as I recall stay brighter green for
longer.  The favas started to fade (paler and paler green) sooner,
didn't seem nearly as vibrant as the other two types.  The real
difference is in harvesting... you pick the pole beans whole and eat
them out of hand clear thru the growing season 8-), or can or freeze or
whatever.  The drying beans stay on the bush while the pod goes tan and
papery as it and the beans dry.   (Then you pick and shell and winnow
the pod scraps out...)  And the Fava pods dry BLACK and withered looking
around the beans... a very odd effect.  And you sort of pry the pod off
in hard solid chunks.

So there's a lot of visual similarity between favas and green beans when
young and growing, and by the time you get the big harvest difference,
you've already eaten enough green beans to know a good thing!
Especially cause there is edible produce there from an early stage, on
the pole/green beans, which isn't available with the favas or
drying-beans (well, I didn't try either of those when they were little,
'cause I was pre-programmed to go for the storage end-product...)

Chimene


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:19:58 -0500 (EST)
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - green beans

<< But do favas and green beans look alike? >>

No. They look similar. They are both legumes and have the basic
characteristics of all legumes. This includes but is not restricted to
flower structure, podded seeds, root nodules and, in the case of favas and
New World beans, SIMILAR l;eaf structure.. As noted in a previous post the
growing season is longer in New World types. Favas generally require cooler
growing temperatures and finish producing before hot weather sets in.

<<I thought favas were big, tan colored things similar to lima beans. In that
case, I don't think they look like or would be substituted for fava beans.
But I may not be right on what fava beans look like and will look for some.>>

You are right for the most part except you are forgetting that the fava is
surrounded by a darker colored sheath which is usually removed. The resulting
bean is SIMILAR in shape to N.W. beans, that is more or less kidney shaped.
Cooking times and techniques are almost identical for dried beans of both
families and mouth feel and texture are almost identical
 
 <<The only green beans I know have seeds a bit smaller than green peas and
are encased in a little green sack or tube, fresh, canned or frozen. >>

There are many varieties of beans> Red kidney beans, Great Northeren, Lima,
Black beans, white kidney beans and my absolute favorite "horticultural"
beans which are white with burgundy markings, just to name a few. All of
these varieties vary in size and to a lesser extent shape. All can be
consumed in the green, immature state pod and all. All can be grown until
mature and used as a dried bean. Most are definitely NOT smaller than peas
with the notible exception of black eyed peas, black beans and the miniature
form of Great Northern (a name I can't recall) which is used in the Current
Middle Ages for the making of real Boston Baked Beans. And, yes, the beans
you are to that come in a "small" green tube including the tube is
collectively called a "green bean". The tiny seeds you notice are embryonic
forms of what would have matured into the familiar dry bean you are familiar
with.

<<If this is the immature seed, are the more mature seeds sold today? Perhaps
under a different name?>>

Generally, yes. See the above varities mentioned. For the most part, whether
beans are grown for eating when immature and encased in green tube-like
structures or whether they will be allowed to mature into seeds and shelled
out is a decision of the gardener depending on whether food needs are
immediate or not.
 
Ras 


Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:24:50 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Hummus and falafel

At 9:32 AM -0600 3/12/98, Decker, Terry D. wrote:
>I took note of a comment in an earlier message that there is no period
>documentation for hummus.
>
>I am considered serving hummus and falafel as vegetable dishes in a future
>feast.  I would appreciate any input about the history of these two dishes.
>
>Bear

"Hummus" means "chickpeas," and is a period ingredient. Hummus bi Tahini is
the familiar chickpea dip, and I have not found it in any period cookbook.
Sesame seeds are common in period Islamic cooking, but I don't think I have
seen anything that looks like tahini.

There are, however, period dips, or things that work as dips, of which my
favorite (also vegetarian) is badinjan muhassa; the recipe is in the
(webbed) _Miscellany_.

Is falafel made from chickpea flour? If so, you might want to consider
"counterfeit Isfiriya of Garbanzos" in _Manuscrito Anonimo_ as the closest
period equivalent, and try working on that instead. The recipe is:

Counterfeit (Vegetarian) Isfîriyâ of Garbanzos

Pound some garbanzos, take out the skins and grind them into flour. And
take some of the flour and put into a bowl with a bit of sourdough and some
egg, and beat with spices until it's all mixed. Fry it as before in thin
cakes, and make a sauce for them.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:32:47 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Hummus and falafel

At 3:45 PM -0600 3/12/98, jeffrey stewart heilveil wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, david friedman wrote:
>
>> Counterfeit (Vegetarian) IsfÓriy’ of Garbanzos
>>
>> Pound some garbanzos, take out the skins and grind them into flour. And
>> take some of the flour and put into a bowl with a bit of sourdough and
some
>> egg, and beat with spices until it's all mixed. Fry it as before in thin
>> cakes, and make a sauce for them.
>>
>> David/Cariadoc
>> http://www.best.com/~ddfr/
>
>Cariadoc,
>I was wondering what spices might have been used at the time, as this does
>not sound far from what I generally use to make falafel.
- ---
This is the recipe used by Sayyid Abu al-Hasan and others in Morocco, and
they called it isfîriyâ. Take red lamb, pound it vigorously and season it
with some murri naqî', vinegar, oil, pounded garlic, pepper, saffron,
cumin, coriander, lavender, cinnamon, ginger, cloves, chopped lard, and
meat with all the gristle removed and pounded and divided, and enough egg
to envelop the whole.
- ---
A Recipe of Isfîriyâ

Take some red meat and pound as before. Put it in some water and add some
sour dough dissolved with as much egg as the meat will take, and salt,
pepper, saffron, cumin, and coriander seed, and knead it all together. Then
put a pan with fresh oil on the fire, and when the oil has boiled, add a
spoon of isfîriya and pour it in the frying pan carefully so that it forms
thin cakes. Then make a sauce for it.

Simple Isfîriyâ

Break however many eggs you like into a big plate and add some sourdough,
dissolved with a commensurate number of eggs, and also pepper, coriander,
saffron, cumin, and cinnamon. Beat it all together, then put it in a frying
pan with oil over a moderate fire and make thin cakes out of it, as before.
- --
The last two appear just before the counterfeit isfiriya recipe. So it
looks as though pepper, coriander, saffron, cumin, plus maybe cinnamon,
lavender, ginger, cloves, garlic and murri, would be the appropriate
spicing.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:55:31 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - European Grain/Legume combo?

At 12:56 PM -0800 3/28/98, Konstanza von Brunnenburg wrote:
>
>I am searching for any documented European dish that combined a grain (i.e.
>cereal grass) product with a legume (e.g. beans, peas) product  -- the
>trusty vegetarian "complete protein" combo.  So far I've only found this in
>a couple of  Arabic recipes -- Caradoc's translations of "Khichri" and
>"Counterfeit (Vegetarian) Isfî riyâ of Garbanzos".  I'd like to try
>substituting a grain/legume combo for meat in appropriate European recipes,
>and it would be great to be able to somehow *document* that a grain/legume
>combination was at least actually used in Period in (for example) England
>or Germany.  (Extra points for grain/legume documented as a Lenten
>substitute!)

As far as I can tell, they did not substitute grain/legume combinations for
meat in order to do meatless meals.  Fish is the usual substitute--which
probably isn't much help to you.  They did have pea and bean dishes, but
they aren't versions of meat dishes.  Note also that bread would have been
served with every meal--so you are getting a grain along with whatever else
is part of the meal.  Here are some bean dishes (original only; references
below).  The funny letter is meant to be a thorn: single letter for th.

Longe Wortes de Pesone
Two Fifteenth Century p. 89

Take grene pesyn, and wassh hem clene, And cast hem in a potte, and boyle
hem til they breke; and then take hem vppe fro the fire, and putte hem in
the broth in an other vessell; And lete hem kele; And drawe hem thorgh a
Streynour into a faire potte.  And then take oynones in ij. or iij. peces;
And take hole wortes, and boyle hem in fayre water; And then take hem vppe,
And ley hem on the faire borde, And kutte hem in .iij. or in .iiij. peces;
And caste hem and the oynons into †at potte with the drawen pesen, and late
hem boile togidre til they be all tendur, And then take faire oile and
fray, or elles fressh broth of some maner fissh, (if †ou maist, oyle a
quantite), And caste thereto saffron, and salt a quantite.  And lete hem
boyle wel togidre til they ben ynogh; and stere hem well euermore, And
serue hem forthe.

Fried Broad Beans
Platina p. 115 (book 7)

Put broad beans that have been cooked and softened into a frying pan with
soft fat, onions, figs, sage, and several pot herbs, or else fry them well
rubbed with oil and, on a wooden tablet or a flat surface, spread this into
the form of a cake and sprinkle spices over it.

Benes yfryed
Curye on Inglysch p. 141 (Forme of Cury no. 189)

Take benes and see† hem almost til †ey bersten.  Take and wryng out the
water clene.  Do †erto oynouns ysode and ymynced, and garlec †erwith; frye
hem in oile o†er in grece, & do †erto powdour douce, & serue it forth.

Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books (1430-1450), Thomas Austin Ed., Early
English Text Society, Oxford University Press, 1964.
Platina, De Honesta Voluptate, Venice, L. De Aguila, 1475. Translated by E.
B. Andrews, Mallinkrodt 1967. (Both Platina and Kenelm Digby were published
as part of the "Mallinkrodt Collection of Food Classics." Reprinted by
Falconwood Press, 1989.)  Page numbers given herein are from the Falconwood
edition.
Curye on Inglysch: English Culinary Manuscripts of the Fourteenth Century
(Including the Forme of Cury), edited by Constance B. Hieatt and Sharon
Butler, published for the Early English Text Society by the Oxford
University Press, 1985.

Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook


Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:36:47 -0800
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: SC - SC-reconstructions of medieval grain and legume dishes

Hi all from Anne-Marie
as promised, here's my reconstructions for medieval dishes that can be used
to combine grains and legumes. As Cariadoc has pointed out, this is not a
medieval concept, but these are reconstructions of medieval dishes, so I
guess its better than sneaking in your Veggie burger cuz there's nothing
else to eat.

Once again, formatting didn't transfer over well, and so if you need
citations, etc, let me know. And, of course, as always, if you choose to
use my recipes, that's great, just let me know and please cite me
appropriately.
Thanks, and enjoy!
- --AM

<snip of pea recipes. See the file peas-msg>

BENES YFRYED from Forme of Curye.
189 Benes yfryed. Take benes and Seeth hem almost til they bersten. Take
and wryng out the water clene. Do thereto oynouns ysode and ymynced, and
garlec therwith; frye hem in oile other in grece, and do therto powdour
douce, and serve it forth.

8T butter
2 large onions, chopped
4 cloves garlic.
Caramelize. Divide into two.
27 oz can Fava beans or 2x15oz cans garbanzos. Drain and rinse.

Fry the benes in 2T melted, bubbling hot  butter or olive oil over medium
hi heat until crunchy looking, about 10 minutes. Sprinkle with * tsp.
poudre douce.

Reconstruction notes: YUM!!!! Fava way tastier than garbanzos. Definitely
need to serve hot. Way to go Celeste!


Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:53:42 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Need recipe  ?beans?

Niamh of Wyvern Cliffes gave a recipe for pinto bean pie and wrote:
>Okay so its OOP thought you might like to try it. It is actually
>surprisingly good.
>PINTO BEAN PIE:
>1/2 c hot mashed beans
>1/2 stick oleo
>1 1/2 c sugar
>2 whole eggs
>1 c coconut
>1 c pecans
>1 (9-inch) unbaked crust...

Well, the pinto beans, coconut, and pecans are OOP but the basic idea, as
it happens, is period.

To Make a Tarte of Beans
A Proper Newe Book of Cookery p. 37/C11 (16th c. English)

Take beanes and boyle them tender in fayre water, then take theym oute and
breake them in a morter and strayne them with the yolckes of foure egges,
curde made of mylke, then ceason it up with suger and halfe a dysche of
butter and a lytle synamon and bake it.

To make short paest for tarte
 A Proper Newe Book p. 37/C10

Take fyne floure and a curscy of fayre water and a dysche of swete butter
and a lyttel saffron, and the yolkes of two egges and make it thynne and as
tender as ye maye.

1/2 lb (1 1/4 c) dry fava beans 1/2 c curds (cottage cheese)    6 T butter
4 egg yolks     4 T sugar       4 t cinnamon

Crust:
6 threads saffron crushed in 1 t cool water     5-6 T very soft butter
1 c flour       2 egg yolks

Put beans in 2 1/2 c of water, bring to boil and let sit, covered, 70
minutes. Add another cup of water, boil about 50 minutes, until soft. Drain
beans and mush in food processor. Cool bean paste so it won't cook the
yolks. Mix in yolks; add cottage cheese (do not drain); add sugar, butter
(soft or in small bits), and cinnamon and mush. Will be a thick liquid.

To make crust, mix saffron water into flour; add egg yolks and mix well
(will be crumbly). Add 4 T butter and mix well; add enough of remaining
butter to make a smooth paste. (Amount used depends upon softness of butter
and warmth of kitchen.) Roll smooth and place in 9" pie plate. Crimp edge.
Pour into raw crust and bake at 350° for about 50 minutes (top cracks).
Cool before eating.

Elizabeth/Betty Cook


Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 21:17:58 EDT
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Wanted: recipes for Jacob's cattle beans

rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com writes:
<< like the
 Jacob's cattle (an old variety, name comes from they're brown and white
 speckled). (Yeah, I got inspired by John Thorne's latest book; I MAY have
 enough for one batch of baked beans 8-).)
  >>

Jacob's Cattle beans are identical to "horticultural beans" which is what
they are. When cooked they loose the speckles and are all white. They can be
used in any bean recipe that calls for Great Northerns or Navy Beans. They are
New World. Hope this helps.

Ras


Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:43:33 -0400
From: mermayde at juno.com (Christine A Seelye-King)
Subject: SC - Fave dei Morti (Beans of the Dead)

Ok, here you go, a recipie and everything.  This is from the book
"Feast-Day Cakes From Many Lands" by Dorothy Gladys Spicer
 copyrite 1960, Holt, Rinehart and Winston, NY

'Fave die Morti (Beans of the Dead) - Italy

        Fave dei Morti, beans of the dead, are the little bean-shaped
cakes that Italians eat on November 2, Il Giorno dei Morti, or All Soul's
Day.  These small cakes, made of ground almonds and sugar combined with
egg, butter, flour, and subtle flavorings, are traditionally eaten
throughout Italy on the day that everyone decorates the graves with
flowers and says masses for departed souls.
         <snip explaination of church decorations, graveside florals>
        In spite of the somber beginning of Il Giorno dei Morti, the day
is far from gloomy.  To young men in and about Rome, the Day of the Dead
is the proper time to send engagement rings to sweethearts.  And to young
couples this 'festa' is the occasion to announce betrothals.  Fave dei
Morti, sometimes white, or tinted delicate pink, or chocolate color, play
an important part in these rites.  For the man sends the ring to his
fiancee in a conventional small square white box that is packed in an
oval container, full of the bean-shaped cakes.
          <snip explaination of other holiday observances>
        Fave dei Morti, beans of the dead, are rich and delicate little
cakes.  Despite their macabre origin, you will want them often.   Color
them orange and serve them at Halloween or Thanksgiving parties with ice
cream goblin or pumpkin molds.  Or leave them white and store in tightly
closed tins, to serve with coffee or tea to unexpected guests.

        FAVE DEI MORTI

1/2 cup sugar
3 tablespoons butter
1/2 cup finely ground almonds (unblanched)
1 egg
2 tablespoons all purpose flour
1 tablespoon grated lemon rind
Vegetable coloring, if desired

Combine sugar, butter, and ground almonds.  Beat egg and add to other
ingredients, mixing thoroughly.  Add flour and flavoring.  Work dough
until smooth and make into a roll about 1 1/2 inches in diameter.  Wrap
in waxed paper and refrigerate 2-3 hours.  Then cut off bits of dough and
mold them into kidney-shaped pieces about as large as lima beans.
Bake on greased cookie sheet in moderate oven (350 degrees) about 15-20
minutes, or until golden brown. Cool 5 minutes before removing them from
pan with spatula.  Yield: about 2 dozen small cakes.  '

I would infer from the "Add flour and flavoring" line that you should add
whatever flavor you wish at this stage, such as cocoa powder, lemon, etc.
 Hope this is what your autocrat had in mind!
        Good Luck,
        Mistress Christianna MacGrain


Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:12:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Fave dei Morti (Beans of the Dead)

Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 16-Jun-98 SC - Fave dei Morti
(Beans .. by C. Seelye-King at juno.com
> Ok, here you go, a recipie and everything.  This is from the book
> "Feast-Day Cakes From Many Lands" by Dorothy Gladys Spicer
>  copyrite 1960, Holt, Rinehart and Winston, NY

Looks like the name has transferred since 1614 -- in Castelvetti, Fava
del Morte is actually a sort of fava bean paste.

toodles, margaret


Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:52:05 -0400
From: "Robert Newmyer" <rnewmyer at epix.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Fave dei Morti (Beans of the Dead)

I found the following recipe thru a friend. Pretty basic but tasty. I have
no idea of the origin of this version but I thought a Fave de Morti recipe
that actually contains beans would be of interest.

Fava de Morti
(Fava Beans)

1 lb.   broad beans, dried
5   large garlic cloves, mashed
2   bay leaves
   salt
   pepper
   olive oil, extra virgin

 Soak the beans in water overnight.  Next morning drain and put in pot with
fresh water, the garlic, and the bay leaves, and simmer until tender.  This
may take two to three hours, depending on the age of the beans.  Add water,
if necessary, but aim for a thick rather than runny sauce at the end.
Season with salt, pepper, and plenty of really good olive oil.  Serve with
lemon and parsley.  This dish is good tepid or at room temperature, and is
even better the next day.

from "Painters & Food - Renaissance Recipes" by Gillian Riley

               Griffith Allt y Genlli
               Bob Newmyer


Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:17:44 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Fava alert

In a message dated 6/18/98 2:41:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, allilyn at juno.com
writes:
<< Does that mean the dried seeds inside the fava case, or does it mean food
 processing cooked fava beans, as we usually eat them--green?   >>

I know that I have said this before but people of European descent can have
severe allergic reactions to fava beans. Please be cautious if you are of
European descent, espicially Mediterranean  ancestry. The offending part of
trhe bean is the gelatinous stuff between the pod and the bean in green fava
beans for the most part.

Ras


Subject: RE: ANST --..Historical references to beans...
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 98 16:54:25 MST
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

> Okay Bear, it's renaissence...but heres what you requested...Reference
> for your beans: fourteenth century.
>
> 154. D'autres menuz potaiges...: Other Lesser Pottages, such as stewed
> chard, cabbage, turnip greens, leeks, veal in Yellow Sauce, and plain
> shallot pottage, peas, frenched beans, mashed beans, sieved beans or
> beans in their shell,  pork offal, brewet of pork tripe -- women are
> experts with these and anyone knows how to do them; as for tripe, which
> I have not put in my recipe book, it is common knowledge how it is to be
> eaten.
>
>                            The Viandier of Taillevent
>
> Rayah

Thank you for the information.  I don't have the Viander in my library, but
I will probably add it.  The reference is almost certainly to favas and I
have never come across it.  Wonder if his unstated recipe for tripe is
similar to modern menudo?

Bear


Subject: Re: ANST --..Historical references to beans...
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 98 12:03:17 MST
From: peerage1 <peerage1 at flash.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

More windy talk *grin*

> Phaseolus vulgaris, the New World string bean.

Yes and no, that particular name that covers a very broad
category...please go and read this site:

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/rhodcv/hort410/peas/pe00003.htm
and
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/Indices/index_ab.html

> To my knowledge, there is no record of these having been consumed in
>Europe within the SCA period.

In answer to that from that site:

The four major cultivated species of Phaseolus bean all originated in
central and S. America. Ancient seeds of cultivated forms
have been found in Peru (dated to 6000 BC) and Mexico (dated to 4000
BC). Bean cultivation spread into N. America; finds
in New Mexico have been dated to around 300 BC. French beans were
brought to Europe in the early 16th century. Early varieties were all
climbers, and dwarf French beans were not commonly grown until the 18th
century.

another similar reference:

Distribution

Common beans are native to the New World, probably Central Mexico and
Guatemala. They were taken to Europe by the
Spaniards and Portuguese who also took them to Africa and other parts of
the Old World. Now they are widely cultivated in
the tropics, subtropics and temperate regions.

Herando Cortes is guilty of bringing "green" beans to europe. Date of
Cortes is 1485-1547

Now the beans which immediately were called "fagioli" then a century
later (1653) recieve the name of haricot beans. Pope Clement VII
Clement VII, Pope c.1475-1534, pope (1523-34), recieves several and
gives some to Canon Piero Valeriano who culivates them in Italy, as well
as passing on some beans to Catherine de' Merdici in 1533 who brings
them to France.

Main Entry: har·i·cot
Pronunciation: '(h)ar-i-"kO
Function: noun
Etymology: French
Date: 1653
: the ripe seed or the unripe pod of any of several beans (genus
Phaseolus and especially P. vulgaris)

> The later is the seed pod of Vicia faba, the fava or broad bean.  The
edible seed looks a little like a white lima bean.  This is the bean that
would be appropriate for a period feast.

Yepper, on the bean, BUT, Now, the ten dollar question: at what stage of
growth was the bean pod also used in medieval cookery preparation and
the color of the pod?
*grin*....

rayah


Subject: RE: ANST --..Historical references to beans...
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 98 13:10:49 MST
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

> > To my knowledge, there is no record of these having been consumed in
> >Europe within the SCA period.
>
> Herando Cortes is guilty of bringing "green" beans to europe. Date of
> Cortes is 1485-1547

To be precise, I know of no use of unshelled New World beans in period
(which is what the menu that kicked this off suggested).

Introduction and cultivation does not equate to culinary use.  Tomatoes were
brought back to the Old World early on and known to be in Italy in 1534 and
in England by 1596, but they were used as ornamentals rather than food
plants.  Sweet potatoes were in common use early on, but the white potato
was generally ignored.  There is evidence that the white was imported into
Spain in 1573 as some form of emergency food and there is a German recipe
from the very late 16th Century for a potato dish, but as a general food
stuff white potatos didn't take off until the 18th Century.

> Now the beans which immediately were called "fagioli" then a century
> later (1653) recieve the name of haricot beans. Pope Clement VII
> Clement VII, Pope c.1475-1534, pope (1523-34), recieves several and
> gives some to Canon Piero Valeriano who culivates them in Italy, as well
> as passing on some beans to Catherine de' Merdici in 1533 who brings
> them to France.

To my knowledge, this is apocryphal.  Catherine was 14 in 1533, her family
was in dire straits financially having been on the wrong side of a bad civil
war, and her Uncle, Pope Clement, used her to cement a political alliance
with the French.  Her retinue belonged to the Pope and all those wonderous
Italian cooks went back to Italy with him.  She was a very small player in
French history until 1560, when she became Regent for her son.  She spent
the next 29 years making up for lost time, changing France's culinary tastes
in the process.  Unless there is primary evidence that she did receive
haricots from Canon Piero Valeriano, I would consider the story
questionable.

> Main Entry: har·i·cot
> Pronunciation: '(h)ar-i-"kO
> Function: noun
> Etymology: French
> Date: 1653
> : the ripe seed or the unripe pod of any of several beans (genus
> Phaseolus and especially P. vulgaris)

Yes, and how were they served?  The best evidence I've seen is a late 16th
Century painting called "The Bean Eater," shows a peasant eating a bowl of
shelled beans.  The recipes I've seen would not work well with unshelled
beans.

> > The later is the seed pod of Vicia faba, the fava or broad bean.  The
> edible seed looks a little like a white lima bean.  This is the bean that
> would be appropriate for a period feast.
>
> Yepper, on the bean, BUT, Now, the ten dollar question: at what stage of
> growth was the bean pod also used in medieval cookery preparation and
> the color of the pod?
> *grin*....
>
> rayah

The dried pod is green around the edges and brown on the sides.  I haven't
seen a fresh pod or the growing plant.

To my knowledge, the pod is not used in medieval cooking, at least, I
haven't seen primary source recipe or description to that effect.  If you
have one, I would be interested in the source.

One of the reasons for not using the pod (in fact for not serving favas at a
feast) is that a number of people, usually of Southern European extraction,
display an allergic reaction to the fava.  This is commonly very mild , but
there is a small percentage who have an anaphylactic reaction.  Some
authorities believe Pythagoras died from an anaphylactic reaction to fava
beans after avoiding arrest by hiding in a bean field.

At any rate, I would not serve what we in the U.S. call "green beans" at an
"authentic" Medieval feast.  They would be Renaissance at best.

Bear


Subject: Re: ANST --..Historical references to beans...
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 98 22:27:44 MST
From: RAISYA at aol.com
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

I've been listening in on the discussion of period beans with interest.  I
have an interest in plants, not as much as a cook but as a gardener.  New
world shell beans were available before 1600 in Europe, whether or not they
were common, they were known in Europe within our period. I haven't found a
description of snap beans, I'd be interested in that.

Fava or broad beans, however, were not the only period bean.  Charlemagne's
CAPITULARE DE VILLIS (ca. 800 AD) refers to a "kidney" bean as well as a fava.
The 14th century TACUINUM SANITATIS IN MEDICINA includes illuminations of both
favas and another quite different plant called a bean.  There are several
obscure Old World candidates, the Asian dolichos or lab-lab bean seems to fit
the illumination and descriptions the best.  Additionally, in the TACUINUM
there are illuminations of a chickpea and a plant I haven't yet identified
called a vetchling that seems to have pods and was cooked much like the
beans.

>peas, frenched beans, mashed beans, sieved beans or beans in their shell

In the TACUINUM, the author recommends eating favas cooked in water and
vinegar and eaten unshelled to treat dysentary.  I generally get an impression
that the pods aren't considered too tasty, though, so this reference interests
me <G>.

I don't really care one way or another about the inclusion of New World foods,
that's the discretion of the cooks, or should be.  I just found this part of
the discussion intriguing.  It's amazing what we can learn when we share
information.

However, my husband is deathly allergic to all legumes, and we had a bad scare
a while back when someone used the same spoon to stir several pots,
accidentally adding some peas to a dish that wasn't supposed to have any.
Luckily, he spotted a pea in his bowl.  Now, we rarely eat feasts that include
legumes, which means we won't be eating this one.  We don't eat pot-luck
feasts for the same reason.

BTW, one of the reasons for the importance of favas as a food had to do with
WHEN they were grown.  Favas don't tolerate warm weather and were planted
after other crops were harvested, getting extended use out of the same space.
New World beans are a tender warm weather crop.  Also, the fava seed I have
is flat, brown and large, larger than a quarter.

Raisya Khorivovna


Subject: RE: ANST --..Historical references to beans...
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 98 07:02:06 MST
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

> Fava or broad beans, however, were not the only period bean. Charlemagne's
> CAPITULARE DE VILLIS (ca. 800 AD) refers to a "kidney" bean as well as a fava.
> The 14th century TACUINUM SANITATIS IN MEDICINA includes illuminations of both
> favas and another quite different plant called a bean.  There are several
> obscure Old World candidates, the Asian dolichos or lab-lab bean seems to fit
> the illumination and descriptions the best.  Additionally, in the TACUINUM
> there are illuminations of a chickpea and a plant I haven't yet identified
> called a vetchling that seems to have pods and was cooked much like the
> beans.

You also have fasoles, which are an African variety of Vigna sinensis and
are the ancestor of the modern black-eyed pea.  Another variety commonly
called the cowpea has its origins in India.

Vetchlings are members of genus Lathyrus, but I haven't taken the time to
chase down the appropriate species.

> BTW, one of the reasons for the importance of favas as a food had to do with
> WHEN they were grown.  Favas don't tolerate warm weather and were planted
> after other crops were harvested, getting extended use out of the same space.
> New World beans are a tender warm weather crop.  Also, the fava seed I have is
> flat, brown and large, larger than a quarter.
>
> Raisya Khorivovna

A little casual reading last night suggests that there a couple varieties of
fava.  The chief difference appears to be the size of the seed.  There were
no comments on the difference in taste.  I think the seed you are describing
is the large seed variety.

Bear


Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 08:22:15 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Fava beans??  (and thanks)

> All the stuff
> I have on period beans tells me that favas are the most period variety,
> which isn't helping much... :>
>
> Melisant

Take a look at cowpeas and black-eyed peas.  My understanding is that these
are variants of the same species which originated in India was brought to
Africa and entered Europe from Africa in the late Medieval period.

The black-eyed pea was presumably imported into the US as part of the slave
trade.

Bear


Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 17:43:06 -0800
From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: RE: SC - Fava beans??  (and thanks)

Hey all from Anne-Marie

re: nom de plums for fava beans....

see also broad beans, and "horse beans" of all things. The bins at our
middle eastern market show them to come in a wide variety of colors and
shapes and sizes, but the most common is either like a large browny green
lima bean with a thick leathery skin, or else the canned variety, which
resembles a brownish garbanzo bean with a thick skin.

As far as I know, "black eyed peas" and "cowpeas" are new world beans. They
may have been introduced to colonial america by the slave trade, but
several other new world foods like sweet potatoes and peanuts were as well
(amazing how things move so quickly, no? The porteugese see 'em here, and
bring 'em home and use them and next thing you know, the Africans are using
them, and then they come back home...) Anything with the genus Phaseolus
is. Fava, garbanzos and lentils are in the pea family. If you get a chance
to look at the plants, you can eaily tell the difference, and if you wanna
do a bit of dissection, the way the seed is assembled can tell the
difference too. Kidney beans are Phaseolus, and they have a "belly button"
in a certain place. Fava and friends have their "belly buttons" in a
different place.

- --AM, who is very angry with Mr Vehling for interpreting Apicius as being
for "french beans". Sheesh!


Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 17:49:31 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Fava beans??  (and thanks)

TerryD at Health.State.OK.US writes:
<< Cowpeas are Vigna unguiculata and are of Old World origin.

 Bear >>

Correct. The Chinese yard long bean is also a Vigna. The unique thing about
CYL bean is that we have what is apparently an very close to life-like
illumination of it in a manuscript dating before discovery of the New World
Using that illumination as a reference point I planted these beans in my
garden this year. They work in all the period recipes we have for beans that
do not specify fava specifically. Oh, one other interesting thing about them
is that they come from the area that most of the Oriental spices (e.g.
cinnamon, etc. come from and the dried bean looks like a miniature red
kidney bean which are mentioned in period sources, IIRC.

Mind you, I'm not saying that these were known in Europe but all the
circumstantial evidence adds up to the probability that they were known. If
they were known it would explain a lot about why Europeans accepted Phaseolus
beans so extraordinarily quickly. CYL beans a long and green, have kidney
shaped beans and most importantly they taste like Phaseolus beans in both
the green state and mature dried form.

Considering that CYK beans yield sporadically and present their harvest over a
long period of time, it is a small step to realize that they would have been
supplanted almost immediately by newly discovered beans from the New World
that had a flavor almost exact flavor, superior yield, grew rapidly and
enjoyed a relatively short total harvest season.

All of this does not add up to the fact that they were known but the
evidence available adds up to a likely possiblility.

Ras


Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 15:25:49 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Fava beans??  (and thanks)

At 9:40 AM +0200 12/5/98, Jessica Tiffin wrote:
>Please, can one of you American cooks give me an alternative name for fava
>beans?

Broad beans. I think I've also seen them labelled "fabiolo" or something
similiar in Italian or Spanish.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 18:36:12 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Fava beans??  (and thanks)

> Considering that CYK beans yield sporadically and present their harvest over a
> long period of time, it is a small step to realize that they would have been
> supplanted almost immediately by newly discovered beans from the New World
> that had a flavor almost exact flavor, superior yield, grew rapidly and
> enjoyed a relatively short total harvest season.
>
> All of this does not add up to the fact that they were known but the
> evidence available adds up to a likely possiblility.
>
> Ras

There is a 16th Century (IIRC) painting entitled The Bean Eater which shows
what appears to be a farmer eating a bowl of beans.  The beans are kidney
shaped, white with a black spot at the inside of the bend.  I haven't been
able to identify them, but I think they are some form of Phaseolus.  The
painting may support your contention of early adoption.

Bear


Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 01:15:51 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Broad (fava) beans more info

Bean, Broad -- Vicia faba L.

James M. Stephens

Broad bean is also known as horse bean, Windsor bean, English bean, tick bean,
fava bean, field bean, and pigeon bean. Broad
beans are sometimes classified into subspecies according to varieties and
their uses in various countries. Thus, subspecies faba
var. minor is the beck, tick, or pigeon bean, greatly used for human
consumption in the Arabic world, but also used for animal
forage, like the horse bean (var. equina ) specifically fed to horses. The
broad bean proper, also known as Windsor or straight
bean, is var. major . Indian varieties, generally dried and eaten as pulses,
are classified as subspecies paucyuga .

The origin of broad beans is obscure, but the best information indicates the
Mediterranean area. Remains are reported to have
been found in Egyptian tombs.

DESCRIPTION

Broad beans get their name from the seeds which are large and flat. Seeds
are variable in size and shape, but usually are nearly
round and white, green, buff, brown, purple, or black. Pods are large and
thick, but vary from 2-12 inches in length. The plant is an
erect, stiff-stemmed, leafy legume reaching 2-5 feet when mature. They are
quite different from common beans in appearance
because the leaves look more like those of English peas than bean leaves.
Small white flowers are borne in spikelets.

CULTURE

Broad bean is a long, cool season crop, requiring 4-5 months from planting
to harvest. In most of Florida it is best to plant from
September through March. It is grown as a summer annual in northern climates
and as a winter annual in warmer climates. In the
tropics it is adapted only at higher altitudes. Flowering is adversely
affected by dry, hot weather.

USE

The parts of the plants used are the seeds as a cooked vegetable. Pick the
beans when they are full-sized, but before the pods dry,
since they are a green-shell bean. They may also be used as a dry bean for
food and livestock feed. Broad beans are very
nutritious, containing 23% protein.

A word of caution is necessary because where these beans are eaten regularly
as the main diet, as in certain tropical countries, a
paralytic condition known as favaism has occurred.

Seeds are not as widely available as those of other types of beans. Most
local garden supply stores in the USA do not carry them.
The varieties `Long Pod' and `Giant Three-seeded' are often advertised.

Other Varieties Fava Beans.
Aquadulce
Ipro
Banner
Ite
Bell
Masterpiece
Bonnie Lad
Minica
Broad Windsor
Primo
Brunette
Relon
Bunyard's Exhibition
Suprifin
Colossal
Tezieroma
Express
Toto
Fava
Windsor
Hava
Witkiem Major


Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:12:59 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Fava beans??

melisant at iafrica.com writes:
<< We do also get the little red kidney beans, which Ras suggested are also
 mentioned in period sources - which ones? Could you post some recipes?? :>
  >>

The 'little red kidney beans' I mentioned  are the dried seeds of Chinese Yard
Long beans. These beans are very small averaging only about 1/3 of an inch
long. The product labeled 'kidney beans' in the supermarket are 2 to 3 plus
times larger and, SFAIK, are a species of Phaseolus therefore New World.

Chinese Yard Long Beans are not Phaseolus. And as indicated in my previous
post, their use in the Middle Ages is merely conjecture on my part. Until I
can find some evidence that clearly shows their use in medieval times, I
would be very hesitant about serving them at feast or claiming them as 'period'
for western cultures.

Ras


Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 11:14:55 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Black-eyed peas

phlip at bright.net writes:
<< Are you sure about that, Ras? I was always told that it was the other way
 around, that black-eyed peas were actually beans. >>

Sorry for the confusion. Black-eyed peas are a member of the Vigna spp. They
are all commonly referred to as cowpeas. Technically they are , in fact,
beans.  The legumes have many terms used for their several categories
including beans, cowpeas, peas, lupines and other terms depending on the
individual chacteristics.

While black-eyed peas are in fact a bean, they are more accurately cowpeas
when  a descriptive term is applied to them. My apologies for the confusion
but I was trying to distinguish them from Phaseolus and specific other Vigna
spp.at the time.

My error :-(.

Ras


Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 11:15:55 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Black-eyed peas

> TerryD at Health.State.OK.US writes:
> << Since there are more varieties of beans than I have encountered, I
> leave the question of precise identification open for further research.
>
>  Bear >>
>
> Was there any accompanying text with the illustration that you cited which
> could shed any light on the matter? My possible illumination of a long
> green bean was merely a decorative element on the page and completely 
> unrelated to the text. :-(
>
> Ras

It was being used as a decorative illustration.  The particular piece is The
Bean Eater by Annibale Carracci (1560-1609).

Looking at a better reproduction from the wife's collection, the colors run
more toward tan, so it could be black-eyed peas which are being eaten.

I think the Italian title may be Mangafagioli.  If so, according to Root,
the fagioli refers specifically to haricot beans.  Unfortunately, we still
have the problem of artistic license.

Thanks for passing on the information about the coloration of cowpeas.

While rooting around in my stacks, I came across the information that your
Yard Long Beans are Vigna unguiclata sesquipedalis and are also commonly
named asparagus beans or Goa beans.

Bear


Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 04:43:29 -0600
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: Re: SC - Bean experiments

Tonight's Play in the Kitchen dealt with some bean experiments.  I don't
have any Fava beans, so the experiments still have a great gap, but
having washed, soaked, rinsed and cooked pea beans, pinto beans, great
northern beans, navy beans, chick peas and lentils I don't find much
taste difference in any of them.  What little there might be would be
covered with the onions and garlic that seem ubiquitous to period
preparations.  Once brayed, they'd look almost the same, too, except for
a bit of color difference, and that could be changed with the recommended
saffron.

Now, all that being so, what is the point of driving for a hour or two to
find Fava beans just because they were the ones we know were grown?
There may be a moral imperative here, as to being totally period (of
course, I'm cooking these on an electric stove and storing in a frig) but
when the resulting bean mush is all the same, I feel that the dangers of
serving Fava beans to people with a variety of  unknown health
problems--ancestry, medications, etc.--are not worth the doing.

Allison
allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA
Kingdom of Aethelmearc


Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:10:27 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Bean experiments

allilyn at juno.com writes:
<< Now, all that being so, what is the point of driving for a hour or two to
 find Fava beans just because they were the ones we know were grown?
 There may be a moral imperative here, as to being totally period (of
 course, I'm cooking these on an electric stove and storing in a frig) but
 when the resulting bean mush is all the same, I feel that the dangers of
 serving Fava beans to people with a variety of  unknown health
 problems--ancestry, medications, etc.--are not worth the doing.
>>

Please don't take this personally but I find there is a very great difference
in flavor between all the varieties that you mentioned especailly favas and
the other beans. Also there is circumstantial  evidence that suggests that
several other beans may have been grown in period besides favas, such as
yard long beans and black-eyed peas.

The gist of your post, if I read it correctly, is that you feel the
similarities warrant their use. You also feel that supposed difficulty in
obtaining them coupled with a rare allergic reaction to favas also warrant
their exclusion. These insignificant factors alone then warrant the
substitution of Phaseolus species for known Old World species. Am I correct?

If so, my position is that ease of attaining ingredients should not be a
factor. Simply use other recipes which do not call for the product, grow
your own or, most significantly, have your grocer order them for you.

Similarities with New World products sounds like a reasonable reason. However,
this observation is based on your personal taste. I can tell the difference
between different varieties of green beans, potatoes and tomatoes among other
things. To my palette those differences are real enough to cause me to not
prepare certain dishes if the variety necessary for the dish is not available.
The flavor diffierence between favas, lentils, chickpeas and New World beans
is so glaring to a trained palatte that they are as different as licorice,
oranges, walnuts and grapes.

In addressing the allergy angle, the reaction to favas is EXTREMELY rare and
is limited to persons descended from ancestors that come from a very narrow
Mediteranian region. If we were to use this argument we would have to leave every known food out of feasts, especially since allergies to nuts, assorted
fruits, alliums, dairy products, seafood, fish and wheat are more wisespread
than fava allergies.

When we come across rare or unusual ingredients in recipes the far better
route, IMO, would be to try to obtain the ingredient or forego using the
recipe rather than compromise the truth by degrading cookery from a
respected art/science to the level of 'slopping the hogs'.

Ras


Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:02:57 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Lupini Beans??

TerryD at Health.State.OK.US writes:

<< I can't place them, but it is possible that you are talking about lupine
 seeds.  Lupine or lupin is a generic name for members of the genus Lupinus
 in the pea family.  Lupines have been cultivated since the Bronze Age, so it
 is very likely they were known in period.

 Bear >>

Lupini are EXTREMELY poisonous if eaten raw and must be thoroughly cooked
which removes the poisons.

Ras


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:52:04 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Lupini Beans-update

CONRAD3 at prodigy.net writes:
<< Yes these do look similar to what I saw, but the ones I saw were dried
 beans. >>

In my previous post I said that lupines were poisonous and must be cooked
before eating to render the poison harmless. This is only partially correct.
Of the 100+ species of lupines, the white lupine has been bred to produce a
few non-poisonous
varieties. The others are still grown, however, so caution would be the best
route when using these beans because variety is not usually listed on the
package.

Historical additions:

Although these  legumes grew wild in Italy and Greece and were collected and
used by both cultures, they were not cultivated until the Roman empire. They
were considered a food for the poor and great cauldrons of them were prepared
for the poor on certain festival days. By the beginning of the Italian
Renaissance, they disappear from culinary tomes and are not  mentioned
again until after that period.

Toussant-Samat in History of Food talks about them a little. Poisonous
properties and a minor amount of history was mentioned in The Visual Food
Encyclopedia.

Although considered by many in the Current Middle Ages to be at best an
Italian ethnic food, the vast majority of gardeners today grow them for there
beautiful white, mauve and pink  flowers, for which they have been known
throughout history.

Ras


Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:30:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Lupini Beans-update

Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 23-Jan-99 SC - Lupini
Beans-update by LrdRas at aol.com
> for the poor on certain festival days. By the beginning of the Italian
> Renaissance , they disappear from culinary tomes and are not  mentioned
> again until after that period.

That is not entirely correct -- both Platina and Castelvetro discuss
lupines.  Castelvetro says :Our womenfolk and little children nibble at
lupin beans between meals during the hottest summer days.  They are very
bitter but can easily be sweetened by putting them in a canal or deep
stream of clear running water, in a thightly fastened bag securd to a
pole or hook, so that the current flows right through them.  The lupins
are left there for two or three whole days, until they have lost their
bitterness and become sweet.  Them they are peeled and salted and
nibbled more as a snack than anything else, the sort of thing that only
appeals to pregnant women or silly children.  Dried lupins are used to
fatten pigs and other animals.  (He also mentions that lupin beans can
be used to drive away moles and enrich poor soil)

Platina doesn't talk about the beans, but does advise cooking and eating
the stalks like you would asparagus.  From the description, "harsh" and
"they are very bitter", it is likely the same plant.

toodles, margaret



Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:43:56 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Lab Rat Redux (cooking exper.)

Alia Atlas writes:
<< Boil green beans (This probably refers to something like fava beans.  These
 are no string beans.  String beans are a New World food.) >>

Correct about the phaseolus green beans. But as I posted sometime ago, using
a picture of an illuminated manuscript I found in a book (source unknown now
but when found will be posted), I still am of the opinion that either Chinese
yard long beans or, possible young black-eyed peas were the actual 'green
beans ' referred to during period. The yard long beans look EXACTLY like the
illustration when a photo is placed side by side and in real life. Also the
dried beans of the yard long beans is a perfect miniature of what we know of
as 'kidney' beans. So there is a possibility that when 'kidney bean' is
mentioned in period manuscripts the yard long in a dried state is also meant.

I know that this is all circumstantial evidence but I would bet my money that
yard longs are the evasive period 'green' and 'kidney' beans.

Ras


Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:30:43 -0800
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>
Subject: Re: SC - Lab Rat Redux (cooking exper.)

Valoise Armstrong wrote:
> Just one quick note. I believe gruene can refer to fresh beans as well
> as green beans.
> Instead of dried beans, you might try this with fresh ones.

The Middle English 'grene' also means 'new', 'untested/untried', even
'raw'. And holds hints of the supernatural.

'Lainie


Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:09:08 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Period green beans

ringofkings at mindspring.com writes:
<< Could the asparagus pea or winged lotus (Tetragonorobus purpureus) have been
 what was described as 'green beans?  You eat them pod and all and they do look
 more like beans than peapods.  It is listed in Gerard as the four square
 velvet pea.

 Akim >>

Absolutely. I only references yard long beans because I grew them a couple of
years in a row and they look so much like the 13th century illumination that
is down right eerie :-) The period recipes for 'green beans' and 'kidney'
beans also work extremely well with this variety in my experience. Is a there
are source for a picture of the beans that you mention? I looked in my seed
catalogs and can't find them . :-(

Ras


Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:40:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Suggestions for a mushroom dish?

Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 22-Feb-100 Re: SC -
Suggestions for a .. by Bronwynmgn at aol.com 
> Did I miss something?  I can't see anything in the original that
suggests the 
> bean paste should be put into pastry and fried.  It looks to me like you 
> should serve the pureed beans hot with olive oil, pepper or cinnamon, and 
> raisins.  More like refried beans.

No, you didn't, I think I did.  I've loaned out my copy of the
manuscript, but somewhere in the recipe for favetta it says that wrap
them in paste and fry them, and that ladies keep these in little boxes
for delicate nibbling.

Sorry about that.

toodles, margaret 


Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:31:59 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Lamb recipe and vegetable stew recipe request

> I used dried chickpeas at a feast I did a couple years ago. They never
> completely softened up and I soaked them overnight and then cooked them for
> several hours.  I've been reluctant to use them ever since.
> 
> Mercedes

I've had this problem with dried legumes which have been stored for extended
periods and have not discovered a satisfactory answer.  It may be they need
to be soaked longer or be cooked for an extended period or both.  I have not
had the problem with dried legumes purchased shortly before use from my
local health food store which sells them in bulk and has a high turnover.

Bear


Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:41:04 +1000
From: "Lee-Gwen Booth" <piglet006 at globalfreeway.com.au>
Subject: Re: SC - Lamb recipe and vegetable stew recipe request

From: Mercedes
> I used dried chickpeas at a feast I did a couple years ago.  They never
> completely softened up and I soaked them overnight and then cooked them
> for several hours.  I've been reluctant to use them ever since.

Simple solution!  Invest in a pressure cooker - I would not be without mine.
It does amazing things to dry beans and makes the most wonderful brown rice
imaginable (what is more, do it properly and you don't even have to drain
it.  Ready, cooked, soft and delicious, and in its own serving dish in about
20 minutes!

Gwynydd of Culloden


Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:09:11 -0400
From: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Lamb recipe and vegetable stew recipe request

Mercedes skrev:
>I used dried chickpeas at a feast I did a couple years ago.  They never
completely softened up and I soaked them overnight and then cooked them for
several hours.  I've been reluctant to use them ever since. <

I ran into the same problem a few years ago with black beans- I boiled them
off and on for almost a week before they were soft enough to eat. It turned
out that they were from a very old batch, and they'd just dried far more
than we're used to dealing with from the store. I suspect this might be what
had happened to your chick peas, as I've had it happen to a lesser degree
with other dried beans.

The trouble with moderately exotic dried beans is that their shelf life is
indefinite, and if you combine very slow rotation of stock, with an impulse
buy, where you get them and keep them around for an extended period of time,
looking for a recipe, you'll get that extra drying problem.

My suggestion would be to try another package from a store where you're
reasonably sure that they have a good turnover- either a ME store, or a
chain in an area where you have either a lot of Mediterranean ethnic groups
or upscale Yuppie types, and see how they work. Another alternative is to
buy the canned variety- just keep in mind, that they're already well-salted,
and you don't need to add more.

Phlip

Philippa Farrour
Caer Frig
Southeastern Ohio


Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:12:12 +1000
From: "Lee-Gwen Booth" <piglet006 at globalfreeway.com.au>
Subject: Re: SC - Lamb recipe and vegetable stew recipe request

One other hint - do not add salt to the cooking water - it means tough
beans!
Gwynydd


Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:44:55 EDT
From: Etain1263 at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Lamb recipe and vegetable stew recipe request

phlip at morganco.net writes:
<< 
 The trouble with moderately exotic dried beans is that their shelf life is
 indefinite, and if you combine very slow rotation of stock, with an impulse
 buy, where you get them and keep them around for an extended period of time,
 looking for a recipe, you'll get that extra drying problem.
  >>

Even "normal" dried beans are several years old!  I learned this when I lived 
in Michigan..where they grow a great many of the "navy" and "great northern" 
beans for market!  someone gave me a large bag of "fresh" dried beans...from 
that year - and they cooked up almost immediately!  Wow!  What a difference! 
The farmers sell to the grain elevators...who store until they have enough to 
transport to the packagers....who package and store until the prices are 
"right"...sometimes it's a year or more.

Etain


Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:08:27 -0400
From: Christine A Seelye-King <mermayde at juno.com>
Subject: SC - Tough Beans?

> One other hint - do not add salt to the cooking water - it means 
> tough beans!
> Gwynydd

	This was something my late husband used to say, and I never understood
it.  If your beans are 'tough', then they aren't cooked enough.  If you
don't salt the water as the beans are soaking it up, you will never get
the salt into the beans, just in the fluid surrounding it.  So, how do
you end up with tough beans?  Sounds more like "tough noogies" to me.  

	Christianna


Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 23:04:53 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Chickpeas

mercedes at geotec.net writes:
<< I used dried chickpeas at a feast I did a couple years ago.  They never
 completely softened up and I soaked them overnight and then cooked them for
 several hours.  I've been reluctant to use them ever since.
 
 Mercedes >>

Dried chickpeas take longer to cook the older they are. I made the Brodo 
using canned chickpeas and it was fantastic. The difference between canned 
and dried is that you don't have to precook them. They are done. Before the 
fresh/unprocessed crowd chimes in, there is little if any difference between 
canned chickpeas and those made from scratch. The ingredients listed were 
chickpeas, water and salt. I used the broth as part of the recipe and used 
additional salt to taste.

Ras


Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 04:04:23 EDT
From: CBlackwill at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Lamb recipe and vegetable stew recipe request

piglet006 at globalfreeway.com.au writes: 
>  One other hint - do not add salt to the cooking water - it means tough
>  beans!
>  Gwynydd

Actually, this is little more than a wide spread myth, I'm happy to say.  
Adding salt to beans while they are cooking does not affect their tenderness 
in any appreciable way.  There may be some tiny chemical reaction, but it is 
unnoticeable in the finished product.  Salt away, and eat the beans when they 
are tender.

Balthazar of Blackmoor


Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 14:50:13 -0500
From: "catwho at bellsouth.net" <catwho at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Chickpeas

> Dried chickpeas take longer to cook the older they are. I made the Brodo 
> using canned chickpeas and it was fantastic. The difference between canned 
> and dried is that you don't have to precook them. They are done. Before the 
> fresh/unprocessed crowd chimes in, there is little if any difference between 
> canned chickpeas and those made from scratch. The ingredients listed were 
> chickpeas, water and salt. I used the broth as part of the recipe and used 
> additional salt to taste.

Actually the difference is cost.  I can buy a pound of dry chick 
peas for less than a dollar and when cooked I have my large crock pot 
full.  I can buy a 10-1/2 oz can of cooked chickpeas for around $1.29 
 When weighing the two options for making a meal for a large group, I 
would prefer to go with dry just for pure cost effectiveness.

Melbrigda


Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 00:32:26 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Chickpeas

catwho at bellsouth.net writes:
<< Actually the difference is cost.  I can buy a pound of dry chick 
 peas for less than a dollar and when cooked I have my large crock pot 
 full.  I can buy a 10-1/2 oz can of cooked chickpeas for around $1.29 
  When weighing the two options for making a meal for a large group, I 
 would prefer to go with dry just for pure cost effectiveness.
 
 Melbrigda >>

I can buy #10 cans for $2.29 (a gallon). I would say that in view of quantity 
and fuel costs that is a pretty good deal. :-)

Ras


Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 15:38:56 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: SC - Three Easy Pieces, or Verjus Redux

The Shire of Crosston, with whom i camp, has a period pot-luck feast 
at every Crown Tournament (3 per year in the West). There are always 
guests, so there are around 2 dozen diners or so, and frequently 
other folks show up looking for food and we feed them, as well. 
Generally, there's plenty. At The West Kingdom March Crown Tourney 
just passed, I made three dishes from Barbara Santich's "The Original 
Mediterranean Cuisine" for the Saturday night feast. I didn't use her 
"redactions" for any of them, just referred to the originals and the 
translations.

VERJUS REDUX
I have now used the Fusion brand Napa Valley Verjus that i bought 
from Whole Foods and i thought it was quite nice. I tasted a spoonful 
of it before pouring some into the dish i was cooking - i'm weird, i 
probably could have drunk a juice glass of it - it was tart and 
fruity, but not bitter. I used it in a recipe for garbanzo beans 
cooked in almond milk.

This was not the unpleasant white grape Fusion brand verjus that 
Niccolo di Francesco wrote about. I used the Fusion red verjus, which 
was a lovely purplish red color and was neither unpleasantly tart nor 
at all bitter, as Niccolo says the Fusion white was. I don't have the 
recommended Navarro brand to compare it with, but the Fusion red was 
quite good.

PIECE ONE

Ciurons Tendres Ab Let de Melles
(from Sent Sovi)

ORGINAL: Si vols apperellar ciurons tendres ab let de amelles, se ffa 
axi: Prin los ciurons, e leva'ls be. E ages let de amelles, e mit-los 
a coura ab la let e ab holi e ab sal; e met-hi seba escaldade ab 
aygua bulent. E quant  deuran esser cuyt, met-hi jurvert e alfabegua 
e moradux e d'altres bones epicies [should be 'erbes'] e un poc de 
gingebre e de gras. E quant hi metras los ciurons, sien levats ab 
aygua calda, que tentost son cuyts.

TRANS: If you want to prepare tender chickpeas with almond milk, do 
it thus: take the chickpeas and wash them well. And take almond milk 
and set them to cook with the milk and with oil and with salt; and 
put in it onion scalded with boiling water. And when they should be 
cooked, put in them parsley and basil and marjoram and other good 
spices [should be 'herbs'] and a little ginger and verjus. And when 
you add the chick peas, wash them with hot water that they should 
cook more quickly.

[NOTE: the insert "should be 'herbs' is from Santich's book, i didn't 
add it. I cooked the recipe with herbs and no additional spices.]

WHAT IT DID:
(1) I used canned garbanzos, rather than soaking and boiling my own. 
I've cooked garbanzos from scratch, and while they are, hmmm, mealier 
(a good quality) than canned, which are sometimes a bit slimy (i 
usually rinse them), i haven't noticed a vast difference in the 
quality of a dish made with one or the other.

(2) I bought organic, whole, unroasted almonds to make almond milk, 
but i didn't have time to make it. I was going to make it Thursday 
night and bring it in a bottle, but I was appliqueing and 
embroidering my consort's fighting surcote as well as hand-sewing a 
couple wool tunics for myself, so i didn't get around to it. When it 
was time to cook, i used boxed organic almond milk that i'd bought to 
drink - it has a little, very little brown rice sweetener and some 
vegetable thickeners (guar, xanthan, carageenen, and locust bean 
gums). But not so much that it is a vastly different creature from 
homemade almond milk, which I would have preferred, but i don't think 
the dish suffered greatly.

I dumped the drained garbanzos into my kettle, then poured in enough 
almond milk to cover (i wasn't trying to make soup) and added some 
salt and a little olive oil. While it was beginning to heat, i finely 
chopped a small onion and added it without first scalding, as i 
didn't bring enough pans.

After warming and stirring, i began to add other seasonings. I added 
white pepper (for personal reasons i don't use black pepper) and 
dried ginger powder. It's an amazingly good dried ginger powder that 
i bought at the health food store. When i tasted the liquid it seemed 
as if i'd used too much ginger and white pepper - it was quite "hot" 
- - and while that doesn't bother me, i know some people at the feast 
don't like food that's too "piquant". But after i let it cook a bit, 
then tasted again with chickpeas in my tasting spoon, it was fine. I 
cooked it until the onion was tender and mild.

I had bought fresh organic herbs. At this point i added lots of 
chopped flat-leaf parsley and fresh basil. I didn't see fresh 
marjoram at the store, so i tossed in fresh thyme and oregano, going 
easy on the oregano so it wouldn't take over. When the herbs were 
cooked and the broth was well flavored, i added the verjus, stirred 
to distribute, then left it to warm for a minute, and removed the pot 
from the fire. Personally, i'd like to have added more verjus, as i 
like strong flavors. But it was fine, adding a bit of tang to the 
dish.

PIECE TWO

Cauli Verdi con Carne
(from Libro della Cocina)

<snip of cabbage recipe. See vegetables-msg>

PIECE THREE

On Preparing a Salad of Several Greens
(from de Honesta Voluptate)

<snip of salad recipe - see salads-msg>

- ---------------

I picked these dishes because they were relatively quick and easy to 
prepare at a busy event, yet authentic. I was actually done cooking 
before the others who cooked on site. (i mention this because i'm 
usually still cooking when everyone is already eating)

Anahita al-shazhiyya


Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 07:31:21 -0500 
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: An Test was Re: SC - Truck Crops

> Bear wrote: 
> >BTW, Root also says, "...fagioli refers specifically to the New World bean."
> >Fagioli also refers to the black-eyed pea, which is definitely Old World in
> >origin.
> 
> When were black eyed peas introduced, if ever, to Europe? Were they 
> eaten in North Africa in Medieval times, i.e., would they have been 
> eaten in North Africa after 600 and before 1600? I've got this bag of 
> 'em in the freezer...

The term "phaseolus" from which from which "fagioli" is derived appears in
Roman writings.  From context it appears to refer to kidney shaped beans
which are distinct from "faba" or fava beans (Vicia faba).   While this does
not preclude some variety of fava being the bean referenced, it does
demonstrate that the Romans acknowledged a difference.  The term appears in
Roman writings after the beginning of major trade with Africa which
increases the probability that they were writing about some form of the
black-eyed pea.

The black-eyed pea (Vigna unguiculata var. sinensis (IIRC)) is a bean of
Asian origin with several major varieties, including the yard-long bean (V.
unguiculata var. sesquipedalis).  Phaseolus likely refers to any of these
related plants.

For visual evidence of their use at the end of the 16th Century, take a look
at Annibale Carracci's The Bean Eater (Il Mangafagiolo).  

It should be noted that while the black-eyed pea was eaten in Italy within
period, and probably before, there is no evidence I have encountered to show
it being used elsewhere in Europe. 

> Anahita al-shazhiyya

Bear


Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 09:30:34 -0500 
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: SC - Phaseolus recipes

Platina 7.14

On the Kidney Bean

There is the kidney bean, phaseolus or phasellus, which Virgil calls lowly.
Apuleius writes that this name comes from the island of Phasellus, not far
from Mt. Olympus.  Kidney beans have warm and damp force.  Their use
lubricates the bowels and is fattening, moves the urine, and is good for
chest and lungs but fills the head with gross and bad humors and brings on
dreams, and indeed bad ones.  Its cold and harmfulness can be reduced to
some degree by sprinkling with majoram, pepper, and mustard.  After [eating]
kidney beans, it is necessary to drink pure wine.


Platina 7.33

Dish Made from Peas

Let peas come to a boil with carob.  When they are taken from the water, put
in a frying pan with bits of salt meat, especially that balanced between
lean and fat.  I would wish, however, that the bits had been fried a little
beforehand.  Then add a bit of verjuice, a bit of must, or some sugar and
cinnamon.  Cook broad beans in the same way.


Recipe 7.33 is problematical.  The Latin text in Milham states, "Hoc item
modo et phaseolos coquito."  Milham translates this as "cook broad beans in
the same way."  Elsewhere in the text, broad beans appear as "fabam" and
kidney beans appear as "phaseolus."  The pattern of translation suggests
that the "broad beans" of this recipe should be translated as "kidney
beans."  As the two preceding recipes are for broad beans, it is possible
that this apparent translation error is a printer's typographical error.

According to a footnote, the recipe is taken from Martino and was entitled
in his work, "Per fava li piselli fritti nella fava menata."  Said title
suggests that broad beans are meant rather than kidney beans.

Bon Chance

Bear



Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 00:21:08 -0600
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Translation issue

At 22:57 -0400 2003-04-07, Patrick Levesque wrote:
> This is a very basic question: I'm wondering about the exact meaning of
> 'grams'. (The french-english dictionnaries I have here are not of much
> help, unfortunately, being stuck on the metrical measurement).
>
> Do they only refer to pulses and legumes in general, or does the term
> indicate a narrower selection therein? Webster's definition is 'any of
> several beans' which quite frankly doesn't lead one very far...
>
> It seems safe to assume that chickpeas would be included, but I want to
> verify this before I adapt a new recipe.

If you are referring to Indian cuisine, then 'gram' generally
refers only to the chick pea and very close relatives, such as
'channa' which is like a small chick pea with its skin removed,
and with the pea split.  'Gram' flour is made from 'channa'.

Nevertheless, for our greater confusion, 'gram' is occasionally
used to refer to some other legumes, such as moong beans and
horse gram.

Thorvald


From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Translation issue
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:57:50 -0500

Gram refers to a number of plants including chickpea (Bengal gram) whose
seeds are used for food in Asia.  It derives through Portuguese from the
Latin "granum" (grain), suggesting a 16th Century origin for the usage. 
  The mung bean (Vigna radiata, green gram or golden gram) and the urd (Vigna
mungo, black gram) are also among the grams.  Cowpeas, black-eyed peas, and
yard-long beans (V. unguiculata), pigeon pea (Cajanus cajan), soybeans
(Glycine max) and lentils (Lens culinarius) are sometimes included in 
the grain legumes.

Gram also refers 1/1000 of a kilogram (standard metric measure).  From 
The French "gramme" (small weight) derived from the Latin "gramma" (small
weight) derived from Greek.

And one must not forget Gram, the sword of Sigmund, broken by Odin, 
Repaired by Regin, and used by Sigurd to kill Fafnir.

Bear


Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 02:23:25 -0400
From: "Christine Seelye-King" <kingstaste at mindspring.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Duh
To: "SCAFoodandFeasts" <SCAFoodandFeasts at yahoogroups.com>,	"SCA Cooks"
	<Sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Ok, if I'd just scrolled down the page, I would have seen them.  My bad.
Here is the recipe for anyone who's curiosity I've peaked:

Counterfeit (Vegetarian) Isfî riyâ of Garbanzos

Andalusian p. A-1

Pound some garbanzos, take out the skins and grind them into flour. And take
some of the flour and put into a bowl with a bit of sourdough and some egg,
and beat with spices until it's all mixed. Fry it as before in thin cakes,
and make a sauce for them.

chickpea flour: 1 c
sourdough: 1/2 c
eggs: 4
spices:
2 t pepper
2 t coriander
16 threads saffron
2 t cumin
4t cinnamon
1/4 c Cilantro, chopped

Garlic Sauce:
3 cloves garlic
2 T oil
2T vinegar

Chickpea flour can be made in a mortar and pestle or a spice grinder (a food
processor would probably work too). Pound or process until the dried
chickpeas are broken, then remove the loose skins and reduce what is left to
a powder. An easier approach is to buy the flour in a health food store; a
middle eastern grocery store might also have it. Use untoasted chickpea
flour if you can get it.

Crush the garlic in a garlic press, conbine with vinegar and oil, beat
together.

Combine the flour, sourdough, eggs, spices and beat with a fork to a unform
batter. Fry in about 1/4 c oil in a 9" frying pan at medium high temperature
until brown on both sides, turning once. Add more oil as necessary. Drain on
a paper towel.

note: The ingredients for the sauce are from "A Type of Ahrash [Isfî
riyâ ]". What is done with them is pure conjecture.


Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:07:23 +0200
From: Ana Vald?s <agora at algonet.se>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Duh
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Another variation of an old recipe from Ligurien, i Italy, eaten today 
in the north of Italy and in Nice, where is known as "socca". In Italy 
is known as "faina", in a dialectal word. (Outside Europe you can eat it 
in Rio de la Platas capital cities, Buenos Aires and Montevideo, where 
the Italian  inmigrants took the dish in the beginning of the century).

Pound garbanzos and make flour of them (or alternative buy the chickpeas 
flour)
Put the flour in a bowl and add olive oil enough to make a very thin 
dough, similar in consistence to the dough to make pancakes.
Add salt and black pepper.
Lay the dough in a flat oven pan and heat the oven to a very high 
temperature.
Let it bake in the oven until the thin cake have a brown and crusty cover.
Eat very warm powdered with blackpepper.

Ana
Christine Seelye-King wrote:

<<<
Ok, if I'd just scrolled down the page, I would have seen them.  My bad.
Here is the recipe for anyone who's curiosity I've peaked:

Counterfeit (Vegetarian) Isfî riyâ of Garbanzos

Andalusian p. A-1
>>>

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 07:34:48 -0400
From: "Phil Troy/ G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Duh
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Also sprach Ana Valdés:
<<<
Another variation of an old recipe from Ligurien, i Italy, eaten 
today in the north of Italy and in Nice, where is known as "socca". 
In Italy is known as "faina", in a dialectal word. (Outside Europe 
you can eat it in Rio de la Platas capital cities, Buenos Aires and 
Montevideo, where the Italian  inmigrants took the dish in the 
beginning of the century).

Pound garbanzos and make flour of them (or alternative buy the 
chickpeas flour)
Put the flour in a bowl and add olive oil enough to make a very thin 
dough, similar in consistence to the dough to make pancakes.
Add salt and black pepper.
Lay the dough in a flat oven pan and heat the oven to a very high temperature.
Let it bake in the oven until the thin cake have a brown and crusty cover.
Eat very warm powdered with blackpepper.
>>>

The socca recipes I've seen also call for water, along with the olive 
oil. Authorities seem to differ on whether it should be paper thin or 
slightly thicker. Usually the cooking method is like that of a pizza, 
except the dough would be referred to in English as a batter. If you 
can pour it, and cannot pick it up in your hands without tools, 
that's a batter. With a couple of exceptions, but generally...

On an only marginally related note, the other big Provencale 
chick-pea-based street food (you generally don't see these on 
restaurant menus) would be panisse, which is a thick boiled porridge 
of ground chick peas, which is spread on a plate to cool and 
solidify, after which it is cut into strips and fried like French 
fries, in olive oil...

Adamantius


Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 22:40:00 -0400
From: Tara Sersen Boroson <tara at kolaviv.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] garbanzos/chickpeas
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

jenne at fiedlerfamily.net wrote:
> Does one soak garbanzo beans/chickpeas prior to cooking, or not?
>
> -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

I assume you mean dried ones - yes, you need to soak them.  They are too
big to cook down like lentils.

-Magdalena


Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:02:07 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gunthar Updates
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Really! Black-eyed peas?  I always thought they were of African origin.
> Not that I doubt your extensive knowledge, but do you have references
> on  hand?  I imagine I may have to defend this one if I use them! :)
>
> Aoghann

Consider the Latin "phaseolus" which is distinct from "faba".  Phaseolus is
the term for kidney bean.  It's Italian derivative is fasoli.  Both
phaseolus and fasoli predate Columbus and the arrival of the New World
kidney beans in genus Phaseolus.  While it is not certain that phaseolus
referred to the black-eyed pea, it is a generally accepted opinion.  Fasoli
still includes the black-eyed pea in modern usage.

Apicius has a recipe for "Faseoli" and Platina has recipes for "phaseolus"
(IIRC) translating from Martino's Italian.  Modern confusion occurs because
of the work of taxonomists in the 16th and 17th Centuries using Phaseolus as
the genus name for the New World string-beans.

There are a number of members of genus Vigna, which are of Asian and African
origin, and commonly referred to a black-eyed peas, cowpeas, asparagus
beans, yard long beans, etc.  These are found in long pods which resemble
the string-beans.  It was this resemblence which caused Columbus to identify
some of the New World beans as "faxones."

I've got no hard and fast dates on when the Vigna arrived in Europe, but it
was certainly no later that the 1st Century CE and it may have been brought
to Europe during the prehistoric migrations.  I tend to think it may 
come from Asia with Alexander's armies.

The best evidence of black-eyed peas being eaten is Europe is fairly late.
It is a 16th Century painting by Annibale Carracci, The Bean Eater, which
shows a peasant eating a bowl of black-eyed peas.

Bear




Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:43:07 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Beans, beans...
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I wrote:
> Also in the 14th C. Tuscan cookbook are recipes for "fasoli", which
> is "beans", but since most of what we call "beans" are New World, and
> favas have their own name, what does "fasoli" mean?

In response to several posts:
Fasoli are not fava beans. Favas have their own *sections*, one for
fresh and one for dried.
Fasoli are not chick peas. Chickpeas have their own section.
Fasoli are not red beans. Those are New World and the 14th C. is way
prior to Columbus...

Could they be black-eyed peas or a relative? Field peas (which are
grey) or are these the peas? Something else?

In the order in which they appear:
7 Chickpea [ceci] recipes
5 Pea [pesi] recipes
5 Fresh Fava [fave sane] recipes
- - "fave sane" means "whole favas" but it's clear from the recipes
that they are fresh.
2 Dried Fava [fave infrante] recipes
- - "fave infrante" means "split favas" but it's clear from the
recipes that they are dried.
2 Lentil [lenti] recipes
3 Fasoli recipes - it's entirely not clear from the recipes if they
are fresh or dried, although i lean toward dried, since they are
boiled first before adding them to the recipes.

Here are the originals and Vittoria's translations:

[57]
De' fasoli. Fasoli bene lavati e bulliti, metti a cocere con oglio e
cipolle, con sopradette spezie, cascio grattato, et ova dibattute.

Beans well cleaned and boiled, set them to cook with oil and onions,
with aforementioned spices, grated cheese, and beaten eggs.

[58]
Altramente al modo trivisano. Metti fasoli bulliti, descaccati, a
cocere con carne insalata, e con pepe, e zaffarano. E possonsi dare
soffritti con oglio, postovi dentro un poco d'aceto, amido e sale.

Another preparation in the style of Treviso.  Put boiled beans,
shelled, to cook with salted meat, and with pepper and saffron.  And
this can be served fried in oil, put in a bit of vinegar, starch, and
salt.

[59]
Altramente. Tolli i fasoli bulliti, e gittatane via l'acqua, mettili
a cocere con carne di castrone, di porco, o di bue, o qualunche
vuoli, e molto pesta, e un poco di zaffarano e sale, e da' mangiare.

Another preparation.  Take boiled beans, and throw away the water,
set them to cook with mutton, pork, or beef, or whatever you like,
and grind it well, and a bit of saffron and salt, and serve it.
--  
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:54:39 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Beans, beans...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> lilinah at earthlink.net wrote:
> Also in the 14th C. Tuscan cookbook are recipes for "fasoli", which
> is "beans", but since most of what we call "beans" are New World, and
> favas have their own name, what does "fasoli" mean?
> --
> Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

The Medieval Kitchen by Redon, Sabban & Serventi
talks about "fasole or faseole. This was an African legume
belonging to the family Vigna and was very similar to the New
World Phaseolus vulgaris. The fasole has more or less
disappeared, but you can easily find its descendant: the black-eyed
pea."  page 94

Johnnae


Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:14:45 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Beans, beans...
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Fasoli (phaseolus) refers to kidney beans.  Any bean that looks like a
kidney, not just the red ones.  The word appears in Pliny, so it obviously
applied to a type of legume before the New World beans arrived.  Most of the
authorities I've checked believe that phaseolus refers to members of genus
Vigna although some suggest that it may have originally been some form of
fava bean.

If you look up the painting "The Bean Eater," you'll find the poor fellow
eating black-eyed peas.

Bear


Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:34:26 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 27, Issue 41
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I honestly believe that "fasoli" is a variant of fava, from the Roman  
Phaseoli mentioned by Pliny.

Today, "fasoli" is the Greek word for fava, and the popular bean stew  
of Southern Italian origin — which gets slurred into pastafazool —  
initially was pasta fasoli in some Southern dialects, notably  
Sicilian and Neapolitan, the strongly Greek-influenced regions of the  
country (where also today "fasoli" means beans, but it seems to mean  
beans in general; however, I believe that which bean "fasoli"  
referred to would vary by region to region and village to village).

There were "white" favas and "black" favas; undoubtedly there were  
other varieties, heirloom types that no longer exist today. Fasoli  
could very well refer to one of these specific fava variants.  
Considering how many different types of favas were cultivated in 18th  
century Williamsburg, I have no doubt there were just as many  
varieties being cultivated in medieval Tuscany.

Gianotta



Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 20:32:10 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Uses for fava beans....
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I don't think so. One of them has a name that refers to
pistachios--because the green favas look like pistachios.

But I haven't tried it.

> Would using reconstituted (soaked) dried ones work in the fresh-beans
> recipes?
> --Maire



Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 06:27:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Green beans was My Next Feast
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

   Actually there are period (prior to 1600) recipes for Green beans  
and a whole host of other new world foods.  You just have to look.   
Here are some of the ones I found from Italian sources either in or  
post period (this is taken from the class I gave at Pennsic).

   Recipes from Scappi [5], Messisbugo [6] and Castelvetro [7]
   This is where it gets tricky.  How do you tell the difference  
between an old bean recipe and a new bean recipe when the same name  
is used for each?  This is the one situation where the appellation  
"of India" or "of Turkey" was not added to the name of the plant to  
distinguish it from what came before the one exception to this is a  
description from Castelvetro [7].  Capatti & Montanari [8] indicate  
that both Scappi and Messisbugo have recipes for green beans, however  
this is the one occasion where no end note is given.  Judging from  
the recipes themselves however, these are the ones calling for "fresh  
beans" which are replacing black eyed peas or cow peas as a fresh  
bean type vegetable.
   Per far minestra di piselli, & fave fresche con brodo di carne Cap  
CLXXXVIII secondo libro, Scappi
   Piglinosi li piselli freschi nella sua stastione, laqual comincia  
in Roma dal fin di Marzo, & dura per tutto Giugno, come sanno ancho  
le fave fresche, sgraninosi li detti piselli, & ponganosi in un vaso  
di terra, o di rame con brodo grasso, & gola di porco salata,  
tagliata in fette, et faccianosi bollire fin'a tanto che siano quasi  
cotti, & pongavisi una brancata d'aneci, & petrosemolo battuto, &  
facciano si finir di cuocere; et volendo fare piu spesso il brodo,  
pestisi un poco di essi piselli cotti, & passinosi per lo setaccio, &  
mescolinsi con li piselli intieri giungendovi pepe, & cannella, &  
servanosi con le tagliature della gola di porco.  Si potrebbeno  
cuocere con li detti piselli teste de capretti pelate, &  
pollastrelli, piccioni, paparini, & anatrine ripiene. Si pu? fare  
ancho in un'altro modo, cio? cotto che sar? il pisello con il brodo,  
si potr? maritare con uova, cascio, e spetierie.  In tutti li sudetti  
modi si possono cuocere le fave fresche.
   To make a dish of peas and fresh beans with meat broth, Chapter  
188, 2nd book Scappi.
   Take fresh peas in their season, which starts in Rome at the end  
of March and lasts through all of June, which is also that of fresh  
beans.  Shell the said peas and put them into an earthenware pot or  
copper pot with fat broth and salted pork jowls cut into slices let  
them boil until they are almost cooked.  Then add a handful of dill  
and parsley chopped and let it finish cooking.  And if you want to  
make the broth more dense grind a few of the cooked peas, pass them  
through a strainer and mix them with the intact peas, adding pepper  
and cinnamon.  Serve them with the cut pieces of pork jowl.  One can  
also cook the said peas with skinned goat heads, and pullets,  
pigeons, doves and ducks stuffed.  One can also make it in another  
way, that is when the peas are cooked with the broth one can enrich  
it with eggs, cheese and spices.  In all these described ways one can  
also cook fresh beans.
   Per fare minestra di Piselli, & Fave fresche Cap CCXLIX, terzo  
libro, Scappi.
   Piglinosi i piselli o baccelli, sgraninosi, & ponganosi in un vaso  
con oglio d'olive, sale, & pepe, & faccianosi soffriggere pian piano,  
aggiungendovi tanta acqua tinta di zafferano, che stiano coperti di  
due dita, & come saranno poco men che cotti, pestisene una parte nel  
mortaro, e stemperisi con il medesimo brodo, & mettasi nel vaso con  
una branchata d'herbuccie battute, e faccianosi levare il bollo, e  
servanosi caldi.  In questo medesimo modo si pu? accommodare il cece  
fresco, havendolo prima fatto perlessare, & fatto stare per un quarto  
d'hora nell'acqua fresca.  In questo modo ancho si cuoce il fagiolo  
frescho.
   To make a dish of peas and fresh beans, chapter 249, 3rd book,  
Scappi.
   Take the peas or beans, pod them and put them in a pot with olive  
oil, salt and pepper, and let them fry very slowly.  Then add enough  
water, which has been colored with saffron, that the beans are  
covered by two fingers.  When they are a little bit less than fully  
cooked, grind a few and mix them with the same broth, and put them  
back into the pot with a handful of chopped herbs and bring back to  
the boil and serve hot.  In this same way one can cook fresh chick  
peas, having first parboiled them and let them soak for a quarter of  
an hour in fresh water. In this same way one can also cook fresh beans.
   A fare fasoletti freschi in tegola.  Page 113 Messisbugo
   Pigliarai le tegole de fasoletti quando sono tenerini, e tagliarai  
il picollo, poi le porrai a cuocere in'acqua bogliente, e subito si  
cuoceranno, & cotte che seranno le porrai a scolare col sale sopra,  
poi le frigerai in olio overo butiro, e frigendole nella patella, li  
porrai un poco di Aceto, e Pevere, e poi li imbandirai.
   To cook fresh beans in the pod, page 113 Messisbugo
   Take the pod of beans when they are tender, and cut them into  
little pieces, then put them to cook in boiling water, and they will  
be cooked almost immediately.  And when they are cooked drain them  
and sprinkle them with salt, then fry them in olive oil or butter in  
a frying pan.  Add a little bit of vinegar and pepper before serving  
them.

   De? fagiuoli turcheschi, Castelvetro
   Nella passata stagione ho a pieno ragionato della fava fresca e  
secca; or qui mi convien ragionare de? fagiuoli, frutto o legume  
molto simigliante a quelle di gusto; e di due spezie ne abbiam noi,  
n? di niuna crudi mangiamo. L?una ? de? men communi e pi? grossi, li  
quali son tutti o bianchi over macchiati di rosso e di nero. L?altra  
spezie ? de? pi? minuti e tutti bianchi con un occhio nero nel  
ventre. I primi si nominano turcheschi, li quali ascendono molto in  
alto; per? chi non gli pianta vicino alle siepi conviene, volendone  
aver molto frutto, piantarvi a canto de? rami di fronde secchi, a?  
quali appiccandosi possano in alto montare; e perch? portano una  
bella foglia verde, le donne in Italia e spezialmente in Vinezia, ove  
son molto vaghe dell?ombra e della verdura e ancora per poter dalle  
finestre loro vagheggiare i viandanti senza da coloro esser esse  
vedute, usano di porre su le finestre delle camere loro alcune  
cassette di legno lunghe quanto ? larga la finestra,
  n? pi? larga d?una buona spanna e piene d?ottima terra; in quella  
piantano dieci o dodici di que? fagiuoli a luna crescente di febraio  
o di marzo o d?aprile, e poi con bastoncin bianchi vi formano una  
vaga grata alla quale essi s?attaccano, s? che d?una piacevole ombra  
tutta la finestra adombrano. Gli ortolani ancora ne? colti loro fanno  
siepi di canne o di bastoni bianchi della canape, a canto alle quali  
piantano quantit? di simile legume, e cos? vengono alla vista a  
rendere i loro orti pi? vaghi e maggior coppia di fagiuoli  
raccolgono. I baccelli adunque di questo legume, mentre son verdi e  
teneri, n? alla lor perfetta grandezza pervenuti, cocendoli tutti  
intieri e acconciandoli come de? lupuli ho mostrato, son molto buoni.  
Secchi poi se ne fanno buone minestre, cocendogli in ottimo brodo.
   On turkish beans.
   In the past season I have given full account of the fava been  
fresh or dried, now I shall give an account of the fagioli (bean)  
fruit or legume very similar to that tasted, and the two species we  
have no-one eats raw.  The one is less common and is larger, it is  
all white or flecked with pink and red.  The other species is much  
smaller and is all white with a black eye in the middle.  The first  
we call Turkish, it grows very tall, so you should grow them against  
a trellis, or if you want a lot of fruit (a good crop) plant them  
against dried sticks or branches, the which fasten themselves tightly  
to it so they can raise themselves up.  Because the they have  
beautiful green leaves, the women in Italy, especially in Venice,  
where there is much longing for shade and of greenery and also to be  
able to have the windows desireable to passers by without color being  
lost, They place around the windows of their rooms several wooden  
boxes, as long as the width of the window, if not
  larger by a good span, and full of good dirt.  In this they plant  
tent or twelve of these beans in the new moon of February or March or  
April. Then with white sticks they make a rough trellis to which  
these attach themselves, and this creates a pleasant shade over all  
the windows so adorned. The market gardners still collect canes from  
the hedgrows or white sticks from the hemp, against which they plant  
a number of these same beans.  And thus they come to make the view of  
their garden more desirable and also collect more beans.  The bean  
pod of this bean, when it is young and tender, is at it's most  
perfect point, cook them all intact and dress them as I have  
described for hop sprouts *, and they are very good.  When they dry  
one can make good dishes (minestre), cooking them in the best broth.
   * - ben bene sgocciolata in un piatto netto posta, con sale, con  
assai olio, con poco aceto, od in suo luogo succo di limone, e un  
poco di pepe franto e non polverizzato l?acconciamo - very well  
drained in a clean plate with salt, enough oil and a little vinegar,  
or in place of that lemon juice, and a little cracked but not  
powdered pepper we dress them.


<<< --Anne-Marie:..if you want a period veggie instead of the new world haricots, I highly
> recommend the "new peas in the pod", <> you can often find frozen sugar
> snap peas (much tastier than the snow
> peas) in the frozen veggie section.<

Yeah, sounds better too! I happened to find "enough" bags of green beans on
sale {2 lbs./$1.00} at a store going out of business. And have been
worrying myself about their quality ever since. Since the seating capacity
of the hall is being limited to 60 diners, I am willing to keep the green
beans for myself. Shoot, I should open a bag tonight . . . . Caointiarn  >>>




Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 14:04:36 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vegetables and are you all still there?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

And here we can once more tell everyone that the award winning
BEANS A History by Ken Albala is well worth the price. Old world beans
versus new world ... it's all in there.

Johnnae


Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:35:00 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vegetables and are you all still there?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< 
While it appears that some New World beans were adopted by Europeans in 
the 16th C. (i'm not sure which ones... Bear? Adamantius? Anyone else?)...
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita >>>

This research paper at the Colonial Williamsburg website is worth looking 
over  http://www.history.org/history/CWLand/resrch2.cfm .  It's in the 
Gardening > Research area of the site.  There are a number of other plants 
covered in other papers.

You might also find Bermejo and Leon's "Neglected Crops from 1492 a 
different perspective" of interest. 
http://www.fao.org/docrep/t0646e/T0646E00.HTM

Bear 


Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:59:07 -0400
From: euriol <euriol at ptd.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Wanted: Bean Recipes
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Here are three recipes from Marx Rumpolt (courtesy of
http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_veggie1.htm):

19. Beans cooked with beef broth and bacon/ that is cut small
also with green welltasting herbs/ that are chopped small.

20. Roman beans [fava beans] you can prepare on a meat day/ shells [skins]
included with a beef broth/ ginger and butter. But if it is on a fast day/
so cook it with peabroth/ pepper and butter
so they become lovely and good.

21. You can also fry beans with bacon/ so they become good and welltasting.

I have cooked recipe 21 a couple of times. I cook 1 pound of bacon until
crispy leaving the drippings in the pan and draining the bacon on a towel.
I then add 3 cans of garbanzo beans (chickpeas) which have been rinsed and
drained to the bacon fat, until the chickpeas get slightly browned. This
was very popular mixed with the roasted onion salad I prepared for a feast
3 years ago. The reason I choose chickpeas was one of my friends asked me
not to use fava beans.

Euriol


Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:26:10 -0400
From: "Nick Sasso" <grizly at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Wanted: Bean Recipes
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

#41 Fasoli
Coce li fasoli in aqua pura ho in bono brood; he quando serano cotti, tole
cipolle tagliate suttile he frigele in patella [f? 15r} cum bono olio he
mette de sopra queste cipolle fritte cum pipero he canella he zaffrano; poi
lassali reposare sopra las cinere calda uno peza; et poi fa le menestre cum
specie bone de sopra.

Kidney Beans (#41)
Cook the kidney beans in pure water or good broth; wheny they are cooked,
get finely sliced onions and fry them in a pan with good oil and put these
fried onions on top [of the beans] along with pepper, cinnamon and saffron;
then let this sit a while on the hot coals; dish it up with good spices on
top.

ORIGINAL TEXT & TRANSLATION
Scully, T. (2000).  Cuoco Napoletano - The Neapolitan Recipe
        Collection: a critical edition and English translation.
        Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press.)

Niccolo's Recipe
Serves 6 to 8

1 pound fields peas, crowder peas, black-eyed peas, or similar
1 medium onion, sliced thin
1 tsp black pepper
1 1/2  tsp cinnamon
10 strands saffron crushed steeped in 1/4 cup very warm broth

Cook Kidney beans in water or broth until just tender (or use high quality
canned).  Fry sliced onions in a pan with oil; add saffron and remove from
heat immediately. Put the beans in single layer in a shallow casserole; on
top of the beans sprinkle with black pepper, cinnamon and then
onions/saffron spread evenly on top.  for larger quantities, layer beans and
onions alternately.   Bake at 350F for about 30 minutes.


Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:18:13 -0400
From: "Sharon R. Saroff" <sindara at pobox.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pinto bean recipe
To: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Traditional Jewish Sabbath stew known as Cholent, Hamim, and Dafina 
(and other names) is a dish of basically meat and beans with some 
kind of grain.  Ashkanzi Jews (Eastern Europe) usually use meat, 
barley, beans and some root veggies, while Sephardic uses chickpeas, 
lamb, rice or bulger, pumpkin and later sweet potato.  There is a 
recipe in A Drizzle of Honey.  I have found several others.

Sindara


Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:58:00 -0500
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A Question of Dried Beans
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Mairi Ceilidh <jjterlouw at earthlink.net> wrote:
<<< Can someone point me toward period sources that discuss or describe
soaking dried beans or peas prior to cooking? >>>

Here's one.

From the Menagier de Paris:
"OLD BEANS which are to be cooked with their pods must be soaked and
put on the fire in a pot the evening before and all night; then throw
out that water, and put to cook in another water..."
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Menagier/Menagier.html
-- 
Brighid ni Chiarain
My NEW email is rcarrollmann at gmail.com


Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 13:35:59 -0500
From: Sayyeda al-Kaslaania <samia at idlelion.net>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] converting to gluten free

I wonder if someone more experienced with gluten free cooking can talk 
about how best to make this gluten free? Could I substitute xanthan gum 
and water for the sourdough? I figure I need to play with it, but I'm 
hoping not to re-invent a wheel. :)

Sayyeda al-Kaslaania

*******************
Counterfeit (Vegetarian) Isf?riy? of Garbanzos
Andalusian p. A-1

Pound some garbanzos, take out the skins and grind them into flour. And 
take some of the flour and put into a bowl with a bit of sourdough and 
some egg, and beat with spices until it's all mixed. Fry it as before in 
thin cakes, and make a sauce for them.

1 c chickpea flour
4 t cinnamon
? c sourdough
? c cilantro, chopped
4 eggs
? t salt
2 t pepper

garlic sauce:
2 t coriander
3 cloves garlic
16 threads saffron
2 T oil
2 t cumin
2 T vinegar

[snipped] Crush the garlic in a garlic press, combine with vinegar and 
oil, beat together to make sauce. Combine the flour, sourdough, eggs, 
spices and beat with a fork to a uniform batter. Fry in about ? c oil in 
a 9? frying pan at medium high temperature until brown on both sides, 
turning once. Add more oil as necessary. Drain on a paper towel. Serve 
with sauce. Note: The ingredients for the sauce are from ?A Type of 
Ahrash [Isf?riy?]? (p. 96) which is from the same cookbook. What is done 
with them is pure conjecture.

How to Milk an Almond Stuff an Egg And Armor a Turnip: A Thousand Years 
of Recipes
By David Friedman and Elizabeth Cook ISBN: 978-1-460-92498-3
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/To_Milk_an_Almond.pdf


Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 18:40:05 +0000
From: yaini0625 at yahoo.com
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] converting to gluten free

Does this recipe require a sourdough starter or actual sourdough bread? 
If it calls for sourdough bread and you don't want to make a loaf of gluten free bread try Udi's brand bread- not Rudi's.
For sourdough starter we have experimented with rice flour, xanthum gum, yeast and water. It doesn't have the same traditional "sour" taste as sourdough bread but it was good.

Aelina the Saami


Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 22:07:19 -0400
From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cannellini beans

<<< Anyone know if these [cannellini beans] are period and what a good substitute may be?
Thank you, De >>>

Like all Phaseolus vulgaris, cannellini beans are New World and not period.

I don't think there really is a substitute, a recipe that calls for 
them would be out of period too.
Better to look for a recipe with garbanzos, black eyed peas, favas or 
one of the other old world beans

Ranvaig


Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 23:12:00 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cannellini beans

Actually in the case of the beans, the New World post Columbus Voyages  
of Discovery beans were adopted
into European cuisine and gardens in the 16th century. (Period extends  
to 1600, doesn't it?)
One of the problems with the beans in various European countries is  
that new beans
often just supplanted the old and kept the same name as the old.

Here again I recommend Ken Albala's award winning book Beans A History.
We've mentioned Professor Janick's work at Purdue before with regard  
to his work at the Villa Farnesina in Italy and the New World plants  
that are depicted there.
Albala mentions that the Phaseolus beans can be found in the festoons  
and swags of various paintings in the villa.

Perhaps Baroness Helewyse's paper below will help you with suitable  
16th century recipes.

A time for change : new world foods in old world menus.  This was the  
class I did for Pennsic 35 in 2006, discussing the spread and use of  
various new world foods (squash, beans, turkey, corn) and the lack of  
spread of the tomato into 16th century Italy.

http://www.medievalcookery.com/helewyse/

Johnnae


Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 18:09:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Honour Horne-Jaruk <jarukcomp at yahoo.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cannellini beans

Respected friends:
--- On Sat, 10/8/11, Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com> wrote:
<<< Like all Phaseolus vulgaris, cannellini beans are New World
and not period.

I don't think there really is a substitute, a recipe that
calls for them would be out of period too.
Better to look for a recipe with garbanzos, black eyed
peas, favas or one of the other old world beans

Ranvaig >>>

If it's the flavor that matters, the closest match is going to be _peeled_ garbanzo beans- tedious, but do-able. All the old world true beans except Favas went extinct through non-cultivation when Phaseolus vulgaris came in, so there are a fair number of period bean recipes for which such substitution is your only option. You can't use favas both because of their very strong, earthy taste and because of a nasty little biological trick we played on ourselves, called favism, where a dangerous reaction to undercooked or raw favas developed as a protection against malaria and then went way overboard. 

Yours in service to both the Societies of which I am a member-
(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.
Alizaundre de Brebeuf, C.O.L. S.C.A.- AKA Una the wisewoman, or That Pict


Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 00:58:21 -0500
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cannellini beans

Thank you for some directions. Cannellini is a white bean and some sources
that I have found say the great northern and navy are substitutes. The
recipe is a cannellini torta which one source has the bean as far back as
Roman times but most others pretty much have it in Peru and making it's way
to the Italian states around late 1400s and into the 1500s. The original
recipe that got me curious has no claims of historic origins but when I
looked in other sources of a similar recipe, they claimed to be adaptations
of a renaissance recipe. Of coarse, no citations.
I figured that it is modern but I wanted to see if by chance it could have
been in SCA period. The original recipe that started my quest has cocoa and
vanilla, the "renaissance ones have cinnamon and almonds instead but
everything else is the same.
As weirdness would have it, I received my "La Cucina Italiana magazine
today. It has an article on beans and bean recipes. Their cannellini torta
is called "Flan dolce di cannellini con ricotta e cacao" :)
Thank you again for the help. I will be making both recipes one day just to
see what they taste like.

De


Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 14:34:29 -0400
From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cannellini beans

<<< Thank you for some directions. Cannellini is a white bean and some sources
that I have found say the great northern and navy are substitutes. >>>

Navy and great northern are also New World beans, which are (as 
Johnna corrected me) only period in a few places, late in period, as 
novelties.  Certainly not Roman.

I've never seen any history for the various varieties of new world 
beans or how old they are.  I suspect that they date to before the 
beans came to Europe.  I don't think anyone knows what variety the 
earliest beans in Europe were, and doubt there is any reason to 
consider one New World bean as more period than another.

<<< The
recipe is a cannellini torta which one source has the bean as far back as
Roman times but most others pretty much have it in Peru and making it's way
to the Italian states around late 1400s and into the 1500s. >>>

The new beans were given the same name as the old ones, and used in 
the same recipes.   It is *possible* that your recipe is old and was 
was originally made with one of the Old world beans.

I checked the index of Apicus for "bean" and "torta" and don't see 
anything like this.    The notes say that one word now associated 
with beans, actually meant peas then.  Apicus isn't the only Roman 
cookbook, and it would help to know the exact title of the original 
recipe.

Ranvaig


Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 01:36:49 -0400
From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] peas vs. beans

Ranvaig commented:
<<< I checked the index of Apicus for "bean" and "torta" and don't see
anything like this.    The notes say that one word now associated
with beans, actually meant peas then.  >>>

So what determines whether something is considered a bean and when 
it is considered a pea? Now and in period?
===================

I found a couple of modern answers:

Beans are of the genus Phaseolus.
Peas are of the genus Pisum.

peas have tendrils and beans do not

peas have a hollow stem and beans have a solid stem.

In general peas have slick vines and beans have hairy vines that enable
them to cling.

Bean is used for a lot of different
things and usually tagged by shape.

In period, it will depend on the language too.  Or are you only 
asking about English?

Ranvaig


Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 18:05:00 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] peas vs. beans

Ranvaig commented:
<<< I checked the index of Apicus for "bean" and "torta" and don't see
anything like this.    The notes say that one word now associated
with beans, actually meant peas then.  >>>

So what determines whether something is considered a bean and when it  is 
considered a pea? Now and in period?

 Stefan
============

I'm far removed from my references at the moment, but I would suggest taking 
a look in Pliny's Natural Histories for a basic take on beans and peas in 
Antiquity.  That being said, the terms "pea" and "bean" are not 
scientifically precise and may through usage apply to various seeds that are 
not taxonomically peas or beans.  The black-eyed pea, for example, is called 
a pea in English, but is placed with beans in Italian, and being a member of 
genus Vigna is truly neither a pea nor a bean but is related to both.

For differentiation in most of period, I believe you will find that most of 
the peas available were of the sort that divide in two producing split peas, 
while the beans retained their unity.

If you want to duck the entire issue, divide the collection of messages by 
age and label them "legumes-1-msg", "legumes-2-msg", etc.

Bear


Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 00:09:22 -0400
From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] peas vs. beans

<<< The black-eyed pea, for example, is called a pea in English, but is 
placed with beans in Italian, and being a member of genus Vigna is 
truly neither a pea nor a bean but is related to both. >>>

Old world Aduki and mung "beans" are also Vigna.

<<< For differentiation in most of period, I believe you will find that 
most of the peas available were of the sort that divide in two 
producing split peas, while the beans retained their unity. >>>

I'm not sure this is a valid distinction.  Split peas are the result 
of a milling operation, but beans can be split too.  I'm not sure how 
common it was to have peas milled in period

Rumpolt has numerous recipes for peas, all of them for unmilled peas, 
because it tells you to remove the hull. Sometimes by soaking in lye 
and washing the hulls off, some by cooking with the hull and pressing 
through a sieve, leaving the hull behind.   I tried this once, and it 
looked and tasted exactly like common split peas.

There is a bean recipe that tells you to remove the hull too. 
Rumpolt's "Bonen" is likely black eyed peas.

Ranvaig


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:45:35 +0000
From: Gretchen Beck <cmupythia at cmu.edu>
To: "yaini0625 at yahoo.com" <yaini0625 at yahoo.com>, Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>, Donna Green <donnaegreen at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A Bean is a bean

<<< Are lima beans New World or Old?
Aelina >>>

New World, I believe. "Lima" in an agricultural product name was, at least in the 19th C, a reference to Lima, Peru.

toodles, margaret


Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 13:13:24 -0800
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Old World beans

Favas, black-eyed peas, lentils, garbanzos, and peas are all in the 
Carolingian capitularies I'm working from. So is salt pork and chard and 
kale and mustard greens... cooking without cookbooks isn't actually all 
that hard...

Liutgard


Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 16:34:20 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] soooooo...

On Feb 3, 2012, at 12:58 PM, Honour Horne-Jaruk wrote:
<<< Please list them! I joined in the days when "only Favas survive" was  
Gospel. If that's wrong I _so_ want the names of the others! >>>

Maybe this entry will help:
http://www.cliffordawright.com/caw/food/entries/display.php/topic_id/6/id/103/

mentions t he Mediterranean legumes are: carob or St. John?s bread  
(Ceratonia siliqua);  grasspea or India pea (Lathyrus sativus);  
chickpea (Cicer arietinum) ; and  lentils (Lens esculenta).

Then  fava beans (Vicia faba), also known as the broad bean, Windsor  
bean, horse bean,
Scotch bean, and English bean.

 The lupine bean (Lupinus albus);  bittervetch (Vicia ervilia) ; the  
cultivated pea (Pisum sativum); the field pea, used mostly for dried  
peas and forage, and the garden pea with its high sugar content.
from Africa, such as the hyacinth bean (Lablab niger),
and the cowpea (Vigna unguiculata), also known as the aspargus bean or  
yard-long bean, native to West Africa.

Johnnae


Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 16:42:49 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Old World beans (was: soooooo...)

From Leonard Fuchs Herbal of 1545:

White Horse Bean (Lupinus albus, white lupine) used in the Mediterranean 
world and still cultivated in Georgia (US) until recently.
Common Bean  (Vicia faba, Faba vulgaris, fava bean, horse bean)
Large (or great) Pea  (Pisum sativa, Pismum maius) looks to be a garden pea

French (or foreign) Bean AKA Wild Bean (Smilax hortensis, possibly the Old 
World phaseolus or the New World Phaseolus vulgaris)  what Fuchs says about 
it can be found here: 
http://books.google.com/books?id=qCGdBd4TaswC&pg=PA619&lpg=PA619&dq=similax+hortensis&source=bl&ots=aUjhXu1Y51&sig=p9w16USBQNK5A7LvXkQROWQVqH8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MlssT4qYJIHK2AXS29iIDw&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=similax%20hortensis&f=false

The image can be found here: 
http://www.med.yale.edu/library/historical-old/fuchs/406-7.gif

And for fun, here is the Phaseolus entry from William turner's New Herball: 
http://books.google.com/books?id=Bc8Z6otwklgC&pg=PA498&lpg=PA498&dq=similax+hortensis&source=bl&ots=ZJFnYfqN4s&sig=oLHxegbaPKOFEtMBtzUOYJaVvSI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=W14sT_zCEqfg2wXgt5jvDg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=similax%20hortensis&f=false

Bear 


Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 11:37:57 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Old World beans (was: soooooo...)

What you are after are members of the species Lathyrus, Vigna and Vicia. 
Probably all members of these genera have been used for human consumption, 
but most were considered "famine foods" by the Middle Ages and consigned to 
being ground cover and animal fodder, a purpose many still serve today.  I 
am listing only those I can demonstrate have been used by humans

Grass pea (Lathyrus sativa, Lathyrus sphaericus)
Red pea (Lathyrus cicera)
Sea pea (Lathyrus japonica)

These are the vetchlings that have commonly used for human consumption, but 
other members of the species have been consumed by humans.  You should be 
careful with members of genus Lathyrus.  The seeds are toxic in quantity 
causing symptoms that are referred to as lathyrism.

Bitter vetch  (Vicia ervilia) -- evidence of 12th Century use in European 
famine
Common vetch (Vicia sativa)
Hairy vetch (Vicia villosa)

Fava beans are placed in the Vicia (Vicia faba) or are places in their own 
genus, Faba (Faba sativa).  They are not the survivor of a class of bean but 
are monotypic with cultivar differentiation based on the size of the bean. 
Besides arguing over genus, the botanical taxonomists are trying to decide 
if the group has varietals.

Black gram (Vigna mungo) -- probably Asian only in period
Adzuki bean (Vigna angularis) -- Asian only in period
Mung bean (Vigna radiata) -- Asian in period, East African after 10th 
Century
Cowpea (Vigna unguiculata or V. unguiculata ssp. dekindtiana) -- the name is 
used for the general group or the specific subspecies
Catjang (Vigna unguiculata ssp cylindrica) -- probably Asian in period
Black-eyed pea (Vigna unguiculata ssp unguiculata) -- the common European 
member of the species
Yardlong bean (Vigna unguiculata ssp sesquipidalis) -- probably Asian in 
period

Bear


Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 20:51:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Medieval Beans, was Delights From The Garden of
	Eden

David Friedman wrote:
<< In her translation of al-Warraq, she identifies one of the kinds of 
beans mentioned as kidney beans, which according to other sources I have 
seen are New World. So I am a little concerned that she may be too 
willing to assume that knowledge of current practice can be projected 
back to period practice. >>

I replied:
<<< Yeah, i've been meaning to write her about that. The original Arabic says, literally, "red beans", and, IIRC, elsewhere in the book she mentions adzuki beans, which like kidney beans are red and unlike kidney beans are Old World (i don't have the book with me at the moment, so i can't find the page #), so i wonder if she may have confused them. >>>
SNIP

So i looked through the glossary last night. I misremembered several things.

First, on page 798 Nasrallah discusses lubya, "beans". In the generic heading, she equate them to kidney beans (New World Phaseolus) and black-eyed peas (Old World Vigna). She mentions that the Arabic word "fasulya" was used in medieval times, although rarely. In modern times, phaseolus is the New World bean genus. This may be where some of her confusion comes. However, the genus Vigna, which is Old World, includes a large number of different beans, some of which were formerly included in the genus Phaseolus. And Nasrallah does go on to mention some of them.

When discussing "lubya bayda", p. 798, literally "white beans", Nasrallah equates them to haricot or kidney beans. Then she quotes another medieval Arabic author, Ibn Baytar, comparing these particular beans to kidneys and saying some may be tinged with black or red. It seems to me that these WHITE beans are not our modern red kidney beans, which Nasrallah does not make clear.

As far as my adzuki bean comment, i could not find them mentioned in the glossary of "Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens". However, on p. 799 Nasrallah lists "lubya hamra", literally "red beans", and she says they are like Hindu red chori. Red chori ARE adzuki beans, although Nasrallah doesn't say so. These are, for a change, actually Old World beans.

Also on p. 799, she lists "lubya sawda", literally "black beans", which Nasrallah equates with turtle or black beans. Obviously the medieval bean was black, given its name. However, modern black turtle beans are Phaseolus, so what this was in Ibn Sayyar's time she does not make clear.

And to add to the problems she lists "lubya Yamaniyya", "Yemenite beans", which Nasrallah says are white soy beans. I am skeptical that they are soy, although at least soy are Old World. Again, there are many spp. of Vigna, so rather than soy these may be one of them.

Urtatim (that's oor-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 21:48:05 -0400
From: "Jim and Andi Houston" <jimandandi at cox.net>
To: <lilinah at earthlink.net>,	"'Cooks within the SCA'"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval Beans, was Delights From The Garden
	of Eden

Urtatim,

Lobia are cow peas, which are old-world... I'm pretty sure they're from
India. Wikipedia says they're originally from Africa. There are all-black
cow peas- I have grown them myself, they are immediate relatives of the
black-eyed pea. There's a wide variety of cow peas, I bet these are all Arab
varieties of cow peas.

Madhavi


Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 16:51:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: SCA-Cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval Beans, was Delights From The Garden
	of Eden

Madhavi wrote:
<<< Lobia are cow peas, which are old-world... I'm pretty sure they're from
India. Wikipedia says they're originally from Africa. There are all-black
cow peas- I have grown them myself, they are immediate relatives of the
black-eyed pea. There's a wide variety of cow peas, I bet these are all Arab
varieties of cow peas. >>>

Cow peas are in the genus Vigna, species unguiculata, of which there are four chief varieties. However, Vigna includes around 2 dozen varieties of Old World beans, with and without black eyes :-) Many species of Vigna are known in India as "gram". Other species of Vigna are originally native to Africa.

Lubya is a somewhat generic Arabic word for beans, especially Old World beans and other pulses. Nasrallah lists quite a few varieties, most, but not all, Vigna species. Those she lists are not necessarily mentioned in Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's compendium, but appear in other works. Other species of Vigna are not classified as "lubya" but have individual names, such as the Arabic "mast", which is the mung bean, known in India as green gram or moong dal, which is Vigna radiata. Confusingly, the Vigna mungo is not the mung bean, but urad dal, which has a black skin and is white inside.

As i mentioned, in her expansive glossary Nasrallah includes white beans (lubya bayda), black beans (lubya sawda), red beans (lubya hamra). The problem with what Nasrallah writes is that she does not seem to differentiate between Old World beans - such as black beans in genus Vigna - and New World beans - such as black turtle beans in genus Phaseolus, which she lists as equivalent to lubya sawda.

Just for fun, here is the list of beans / peas in genus Vigna published in wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigna
and this list is not all-inclusive(!!).

Vigna aconitifolia ? Moth Bean, Mat Bean, Turkish Gram
Vigna angularis ? Azuki Bean, Red Bean
Vigna caracalla ? Snail Bean, Corkscrew Vine, Snail Vine
Vigna debilis Fourc.
Vigna dinteri Harms
Vigna lanceolata ? Pencil Yam, merne arlatyeye (Arrernte)
-- Vigna lanceolata var. filiformis
-- Vigna lanceolata var. lanceolata
-- Vigna lanceolata var. latifolia
Vigna luteola
Vigna marina (Burm.f.) Merr. ? beach pea, mohihihi, nanea (Hawaiian)
Vigna maritima
Vigna mungo ? Urad Bean, Black Matpe Bean, Black Gram, White Lentil, "black lentil"
Vigna o-wahuensis Vogel ? Hawaii Wild Bean
Vigna parkeri
Vigna radiata ? Mung Bean, Green Gram, Golden Gram, Mash Bean, Green Soy
Vigna speciosa (Kunth) Verdc. ? Wondering Cowpea
Vigna subterranea ? Bambara Groundnut, Jugo Bean, njugumawe (Swahili)
Vigna trilobata (L.) Verdc. ? Jungle Mat Bean, African Gram, Three-lobe-leaved Cowpea
Vigna umbellata ? Ricebean, "red bean"
Vigna unguiculata ? Cowpea, Crowder Pea, Southern Pea, Southern Field Pea
-- Vigna unguiculata ssp. cylindrica ? Katjang
-- Vigna unguiculata ssp. dekindtiana ? Wild Cowpea, African Cowpea, Ethiopian Cowpea
-- Vigna unguiculata ssp. sesquipedalis ? Yardlong Bean, Long-podded Cowpea, Asparagus Bean, Snake Bean, Chinese Long Bean
-- Vigna unguiculata ssp. unguiculata ? Black-eyed Pea, Black-eyed Bean
Vigna vexillata (L.) A.Rich. ? Zombi Pea
-- Vigna vexillata var. angustifolia
-- Vigna vexillata var. youngiana

--- End List ---

On the other hand, i really really really enjoy reading / studying Nasrallah's glossary, despite its potential problems, since in it she draws information not just from Ibn Sayyar's compendium, but also from a wide range of other medieval writers in Arabic on agriculture, medicine, and trade, as well as cuisine; and many of these books are not available in English or other Western European languages.

I'm currently on a quest for the books that have been translated into French and Spanish, so i can read them. I studied Arabic for about half a year and will probably go back to study some more. I now own a copy of the 13th c. "Kanz al-fawa'id fi tanwi' al-mawa'id", in Arabic transcribed and annotated by David Waines and Manuela Marin, but the pages haven't been cut and i am shy to start slashing them open. Paulina B. Lewicka, in her book "Food and Foodways of Medieval Cairenes" which i'm currently reading, frequently refers to recipes in the Kanz, but it hasn't been translated. So once i get over my fear of biblio-abuse, i want to translate some recipes. There appear to be some very tasty cheese recipes in it...

More languages, more better!

Urtatim (that's oor-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 00:26:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Black-eyed peas recipes?

To a French speaker, all of these would be  haricots.

It's worth pointing out, I think, that the main words for beans used to be 
fasiolus (phaseolus) and faba. The word haricoq - as students of French 
medieval food will know - originally applied to a mutton dish:

"To make haricoq, take sheep bellies and brown them on the grill. When they are browned, cut up them into pieces, and put in a pot. Take peeled onions, and chop them up fine. Put in the pot with the meat. Take white ginger, cinnamon and  assorted spices, that is, clove and seed. Moisten with verjuice and add to the  pot. Salt to taste."

Note that there are no greens in this recipe, though the TLF says that the 
dish was later made with string beans. The name apparently referred originally to something cut up:

".  1 d?verbal de l'anc. verbe harigoter ?  d?chiqueter, mettre en lambeaux 
? (1176-81, CHR. DE TROYES, Chevalier  Lion, ?d.  M. Roques, 831), lequel 
est prob. un d?r. en -oter* (cf.  tapoter) de  l'a. b. frq. *hari?n ?  g?cher 
?, prononc? *harij?n (d'o?  l'all. verheeren ?  d?vaster, d?truire ?) et 
entr? en Gallo-Romania sous la forme *harig?n.  Hericot est  peut-?tre d? ? 
l'infl. d'?cot*  ? rameau ?lagu? imparfaitement, chicot d'arbuste ?, le 
rapprochement de ces deux  mots s'expliquant sans doute par le fait que la viande du haricot de mouton est  d?coup?e en morceaux irr?guliers. "

http://atilf.atilf.fr/dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/advanced.exe?8;s=2857712835;

But as a word for beans, it came along fairly late.

Faba is less complicated, vicia faba having been found often in  
archeological digs.

Jim  Chevallier


Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 11:32:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Phaseolus et al

Back in April we had a discussion of the various meanings of "bean" in period terminology. I was thinking at the time there must be images we could consult.

It turns out there are. Dalechamp's book on plants came out just as people 
were becoming aware of the Americas and has a chapter on the European 
version (in the Latin edition) and another on the various "foreign" versions (in the French edition):

Historia generalis plantarum...
By Jacques Dalechamps
472  Phasiolvs Lib IV: Cap. XLIX

http://books.google.com/books?jtp=472&id=_NGRilRpGGIC#v=onepage&q&f=false

Histoire generale des plantes , contenant XVIII. livres egalement  departis 
en deux tomes : tir?e de l'exemplaire latin de la bibliotheque de Me  
Jacques Dalechamp, puis faite fran?oise par Me Jean des Moulins ... avec un  
indice ... ensemble les tables des noms en diverses langues. Derniere edition,  
reveu?, corrig?e, & augment?e ... & illustr?e...
Auteur : Dalechamps,  Jacques (1513-1588)
735 Phasiol d'Indie, du Bresil, etc.

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5408308s/f858.image.r=feve.langEN

The one  glitch is that I cannot make out any edible-sized seeds in the 
European variety.  But maybe someone else can do better.

Oh, and if you download Google's version, be warned that it has a quirk -  
the scanned pages themselves are a reasonable size, but for some reason they 
have been scanned onto an ENORMOUS background.

Jim  Chevallier
(http://www.chezjim.com/) www.chezjim.com

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	beans-msg	 of 2

Edited by Mark S. Harris	beans-msg	 of 2