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artichokes-msg - 10/17/13

 

Period artichokes. Recipes. Cardoons.

 

NOTE: See also the files: vegetables-msg, root-veg-msg, asparagus-msg, onions-msg, salads-msg, eggplant-msg, mushrooms-msg, peas-msg, beans-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org

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Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:18:44 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - artichokes?

 

At 12:32 AM -0500 8/31/98, Stefan li Rous wrote:

>Are there medieval recipes using artichokes? Artichoke hearts? Are there any

>European recipes with these?

 

There seems some disagreement as to when the artichoke came into

existence--I discuss the question in the Miscellany article on what foods

are appropriate for period feasts. My own opinion is that the artichoke was

bred out of the Cardoon sometime during our period.

 

There are two recipes in the Andalusian cookbook which Charles Perry (the

translator) thinks refer to cardoons, but might conceivably be intended for

artichokes. They are:

 

Preparing a Dish With Cardoon

 

Take meat and cut it up, wash and put in the pot and pour over enough water

to cover. Put in the pot one spoon of oil, two of murri and one of

clarified butter, and soaked garbanzos, chopped onion and coriander seed.

Peel the cardoons, boil and cut up and throw pepper in the pot with them,

and when they are cooked, take two eggs and bread crumbs, cover the

contents of the pot well and leave over the coals until the grease comes

out, God willing.

 

Preparing a Dish of Cardoons with Meat

 

Take meat and cut it up, put in the pot with water, salt, two spoons of

murri, one of vinegar and another of oil, pepper, caraway and coriander

seed. Put on the fire, and when it is cooked, wash the cardoons, boil, cut

up small and throw over the meat. Boil a little, and cover the contents of

the pot with two eggs and bread crumbs, and sprinkle pepper on it in the

platter, God willing.

 

David/Cariadoc

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

 

 

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:20:45 +1000 (EST)

From: The Cheshire Cat <sianan at geocities.com>

Subject: Re: SC - artichokes?

 

>Are there medieval recipes using artichokes? Artichoke hearts? Are there any

>European recipes with these?

 

I have seen a referance to artichokes on the food table in the form of a

still life by Osias Beert (c. 1580 - 1624).  This shows a young artichoke

ready to be eaten. Rather scant documentation I know, but it's all I have.

   I also have one recipe for artichokes, however I have as yet failed

locate the original from my file.  Here it is already redacted though.

 

Artichokes in cream sauce.

 

6 globe artichokes

300ml cream

1/2 tsp nutmeg

1 blade mace

1 tsp sugar

salt, pepper, lemon juice to taste

Fresh mint and 2 cloves garlic if liked

A knob of butter

 

Discard the coarse outer leaves of the artichoke, peel the stems and cook

the whole heads in salted water with a little mint and garlic, until

tender. Drain and cool.  Remove the leaves, scraping away the flesh at the

bottom of each one.  Cut off the stems and chop, keeping the bits to one

side.

 

Remove the hairy chokes and keep the bottoms.  Heat the cream with the

spices and sugar until almost boiling, then beat in the butter and add a

little lemon juice to taste.  Warn the artichoke bottoms through in the

sauce, taking care not to boil.  Season the flesh from the leaves and warm

through. Pile this in the middle of your serving dish and pour the bottoms

in their sauce around it.  Serve garnished with sprigs of mint.

 

I'll post the original when I find it.

 

- -Sianan

 

 

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 00:19:15 +0500

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC - artichokes?

 

And it came to pass on 31 Aug 98, that david friedman wrote:

> At 12:32 AM -0500 8/31/98, Stefan li Rous wrote:

> >Are there medieval recipes using artichokes? Artichoke hearts? Are there any

> >European recipes with these?

> There seems some disagreement as to when the artichoke came into

> existence--I discuss the question in the Miscellany article on what

> foods are appropriate for period feasts. My own opinion is that the

> artichoke was bred out of the Cardoon sometime during our period.

 

The _Arte Cisoria_ by Enrique de Villena, is a 1423 Spanish carving

manual. It mentions both artichokes and cardoons.  In discussing how

to carve artichokes, the author specifies that they are to be cut

"like the other cardoons".

 

No recipes are given, as this is not a cookbook, per se, but de

Villena mentions that artichokes can be served boiled or "adobado"

(pickled).

 

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper  at  idt.net

 

 

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:12:33 -0500

From: Mike and Pat Luco <mikel at pdq.net>

Subject: SC - Re: SC: artichokes

 

In Italy currently they eat the whole artichoke (fuzz and ALL).  They use young

artichokes, not the full ones like you find commercially.  This makes them tender and easily edible (YUM)  They even stuff them with spec(?)( a type of italian bacon, which they have many types) and bread crumbs with lots of butter.  You eat the whole thing with the exception of the points on larger leaves.

 

 

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 22:26:38 EDT

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: SC - artichokes-warning

 

mikel at pdq.net writes:

<< In Italy currently they eat the whole artichoke (fuzz and ALL). >>

 

Please do not try this at home, folks. A VERY, VERY, VERY young artichoke

maybe, but the fuzz in the center of the artichoke is needle sharp and can

literally 'choke' you to death if swallowed. The preojectiles also can, and

do, stick into your tongue, roof of your mouth  and cheeks breaking off their

tips and causing excruciating pain.

 

Eating choke fuzz is one of those things that you must be experienced in

determining when the safety factor is surpasssed or have someone who knows

what they're doing teach you the proper age of the artichoke.

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 06:13:59 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - artichokes-warning

 

> << In Italy currently they eat the whole artichoke (fuzz and ALL). >>

> Please do not try this at home, folks. A VERY, VERY, VERY young artichoke

> maybe, but the fuzz in the center of the artichoke is needle sharp and can

> literally 'choke' you to death if swallowed.

> Ras

 

IIRC, sometime ago, one of the cooking shows (Jeff Smith?) was doing

artichokes and stated that the European artichokes and the American

artichokes were two different but related plants. Apparently the fuzz of the

European artichoke is edible, where the fuzz of the American artichoke is

not.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:35:20 +0100

From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au>

Subject: RE: SC - artichokes-warning

 

Bear wrote

>IIRC, sometime ago, one of the cooking shows (Jeff Smith?) was doing

>artichokes and stated that the European artichokes and the American

>artichokes were two different but related plants. Apparently the fuzz of the

>European artichoke is edible, where the fuzz of the American artichoke is

>not.

 

As far as I am aware there is only one species, but there are certainly

several varieties (they are related to thistles incidentally).

 

If they are big - fist sized - I remove the choke because I don't like

eating prickles. If you miss a few they have an unpleasant texture but no

other side effects (and I've eating a few). If they are small - walnut sized

up to 2" - I don't bother. In between? depends how mature they look - after

a while you can tell by the colour and shape of the leaves, but I don't

think I could describe the difference :)

 

Rowan

 

 

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:42:39 -0400

From: mermayde at juno.com (Christine A Seelye-King)

Subject: SC - Artichoke Recipies

 

       Well, I was shopping tonight and found artichokes for .99 each, so I snapped some up. (Go ahead and scoff, but this is the best price I've seen for these this year.)  I have boiled them as usual, and have made my standard curried mayonnaise*, and I thought, 'You know, we were talking about artichokes on the Cook's List a while ago, and I saved some period recipies for them, why don't I do something like that for the event tomorow?' So, I went looking, and only found two, one for the bases served in a cream sauce, and one from Cariadoc about Meat with Cardoons.

 

       Didn't we have something resembling a vinaigrette, or am I imagining things?        

 

Christianna

 

 

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:07:23 -0700

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Is tarragon period?

 

When artichokes appear seems at least mildly controversial. The Romans had

something they called "cynara," but some authorities think it was the

Cardoon. There seems to be some evidence that the artichoke was bred out of

the Cardoon in al-Andalus during SCA period, which would make it period for

at least the later centuries.

 

And I have both artichokes and cardoons growing in my garden. If the

cardoons grow enough I may even try eating them--the leaves are supposed to

be edible.

 

David/Cariadoc

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

 

 

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:45:53 -0700

From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>

Subject: Re: SC - artichokes

 

Stefan li Rous wrote:

 

> There do appear to be at least two types of artichokes. One is

> European and one is American. From this, I imagine what I see in

> the vegetable counters here in the US is the "Jerusalem artichoke",

> right?

 

Not around here! Generally in my experience, a 'Jerusalem Artichoke'

(which a sort of starchy tuber-oid thing) is clearly labelled such. It

looks _nothing_ like a standard artichoke. Standard artichokes are

usually about the size of a softball, and look like giant thistle heads-

which, of course, is what they are. They are green. Jerusalem artichokes

are brown. They are nothing alike and are not interchangable. I don't

know why the name is the way it is.

Artichokes are steamed or boiled, and then you dip the leaves (in melted

butter or mayonnaise, sometimes with lemon juice), and drag the inner

side of the leaves over your bottom teeth, scraping off the soft flesh.

All too delicious... *sigh* why do I feel like I've been writing soft

core? ;-)

 

'Lainie

 

 

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:12:34 -0700

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - artichokes

 

At 11:18 PM -0500 8/29/00, Stefan li Rous wrote:

>Ras declared:

>> melcnewt at netins.net writes:

>> << ow are these Jerusalem artichokes  >>

>> 

>> Jerusalem artichokes are new world.

>There do appear to be at least two types of artichokes. One is

>European and one is American. From this, I imagine what I see in

>the vegetable counters here in the US is the "Jerusalem artichoke",

>right?

 

Wrong.

 

Jerusalem artichoke is the root of a sunflower

("Girasol"="Jerusalem"). The bud of a giant thistle, eaten a leaf at

a time with melted butter or mayonaise, is artichoke--and is sold

under that name in the U.S. Jerusalem artichoke, in my experience, is

always sold under the full name.

 

Does anyone know why the entirely different American vegetable got

called an artichoke at all?

 

>Has anyone here tried both of

>these? Perhaps using the same recipe? Master Cariadoc? If so, how much

>differance is there between them?

 

As much as between lettuce and potato.

- --

David/Cariadoc

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/

 

 

Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:19:34 -0000

From: "Nanna Rognvaldardottir" <nanna at idunn.is>

Subject: Re: SC - artichokes

 

Cariadoc wrote:

>Does anyone know why the entirely different American vegetable got

>called an artichoke at all?

 

Probably because the first European who described them (Samuel de Champlain,

who encountered them on Cape Cod in 1605) thought they tasted like artichokes

(or cardoons, which are related to artichokes). Champlain and Marc Lescarbot

returned to France in 1607 and seem to have brought the vegetable back with

them. Ten years later, Lescarbot wrote that the roots were so popular in

France that "today all the gardens are full of them".

 

Now the Jerusalem part is much more interesting. It is possibly a corruption

of Italian "girasole" (sunflower). The alternative theory is that Jerusalem

is a corruption of Terneuzen - a town in the Netherlands where artichokes

were grown in the early 17th century - a Dutch book of 1618 says the tuber

is known in the Netherlands as the "artichoke-apple of Ter Neusen".

 

The French name topinambour is actually the name of a Brazilian tribe - some

natives were brought to Paris in 1613, probably arrived at the same time as

the tuber was first seen in significiant quantities in the street markets,

and somehow the Indians and the new vegetable were mixed up, so for

centuries it was commonly believed that the topinambour came from South

America (in France at least - don’t know if this was also believed in

England, for instance).

 

Nanna

 

 

Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:37:23 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - artichokes

 

david friedman wrote:

> Jerusalem artichoke is the root of a sunflower

> ("Girasol"="Jerusalem"). The bud of a giant thistle, eaten a leaf at

> a time with melted butter or mayonaise, is artichoke--and is sold

> under that name in the U.S. Jerusalem artichoke, in my experience, is

> always sold under the full name.

 

Jerusalem artichokes are always, AFAIK, sold either with the adjective

"Jerusalem" or under the name "sunchokes", and never called simply

"artichokes". Unqualified artichokes are green and thistly-looking, and

are, well, artichokes. However, sometimes stores that sell both use the

qualifier of "globe artichokes" to distinguish them from "Jerusalem artichokes".

  

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:46:57 EDT

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - artichokes

 

European artichokes or Globe artichokes are flower buds. They are green and

consist of overlapping scales.

 

ar*ti*choke (noun)

[Italian dialect articiocco, ultimately from Arabic al-khurshuf the  

artichoke]

First appeared 1530

1 : a tall composite herb (Cynara scolymus) like a thistle with coarse  

pinnately incised leaves; also : its edible immature flower head which is  

cooked as a vegetable

***

 

Jerusalem artichokes are tubers which are cream colored and similar in

appearance to a skinless extremely knotty potato.

 

Je*ru*sa*lem artichoke (noun)

[Jerusalem by folk etymology from Italian girasole girasole]

First appeared 1641

: a perennial American sunflower (Helianthus tuberosus) widely cultivated

for its tubers that are used as a vegetable and as a livestock feed

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 21:41:02 -0700

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - artichokes

 

It's worth noting that although cardoons are closely related to

artichokes (the plant looks like an artichoke on steroids, with

miniature artichokes on it), what people normally eat is the leaf of

the cardoon not (as with the artichoke) the bud. So a cardoon recipe

would be quite different from a modern artichoke recipe.

- --

David/Cariadoc

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/

 

 

Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 21:27:47 EDT

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - artichokes

 

stefan at texas.net writes:

<< Now "Peel the cardoons"  >>

 

When you cut a cardoon the stalk will string like a stalk of old celery or

peel down like a stalk of rhubarb. That is what is meant by 'peel,' IMO.

 

Ras

 

 

Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 18:34:50 GMT

From: orion at mailbag.com

Subject: SC - More Fuel for the Cardoon Fire

 

More than you ever wanted to know about Cardoons...

http://www.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/mod03/01701432.html

 

Alex

 

 

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 06:36:46 -0600

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Artichoke Pie

 

I've been playing in the kitchen again.

 

Bear

 

To Make an Artichoak Pye.  Take the bottoms of six Artichoaks Boyled very

tender, put them in a dish, and some Vinegar over them.  Season them with

Ginger and Sugar, a little Mace Whole, and put them in a Coffin of Paste.

When you lay them in, lay some Marrow and Dates slices, and a few Raisons of

the Sun in the bottom with a good store of butter.  When it is half baked,

take a Gill of Sack, being boyled first with Sugar and a peel of Orange.

Put it into the Pye, and set it in the oven again, till you use it.

 

attributed to Hugh Platt, The Accomplisht Ladys Delight

 

1  8 or 9 inch pie shell

1 14 ounce can quartered artichoke hearts

2 Tablespoons of cider vinegar

1 teaspoon ginger

4 Tablespoons of sugar

1/2 teaspoon mace

1 teaspoon grated orange peel

1/4 cup raisins

1/2 cup chopped or sliced dates

2 Tablespoons of butter

1 Tablespoon of marrow (optional)

1 Cup Dry Sherry

 

Blind bake the pie shell 350 degrees F for 10 minutes.

 

Mix vinegar, one tablespoon of sugar, ginger and mace in a bowl.

Drain and rinse the artichoke hearts. Add to the vinegar mixture and turn

to coat thoroughly.  Let stand for a half hour.

Put the Dry Sherry, three tablespoons of sugar, and the orange peel in a

small sauce pan and bring to a boil. Cook to form a thin syrup.

Mix the date and raisins and spread them in the bottom of the pie shell.

Add the marrow.

Spread the artichoke hearts on top of the dates, raisins and marrow.

Dot the top of the pie with butter.

Pour the Sherry syrup over the artichokes.

Cover with aluminum foil and bake at 350 degrees F for 30 minutes.

 

Notes:

Pie shell was a standard 3-2-1 dough.

Canned artichokes were used because they were available.

I had ground mace available.  It was a little old.  Fresh mace might require

less.

The marrow was left off, as I was preparing the pie for a vegetarian.

I am considering making the syrup thicker.

I am considering baking the fruit for fifteen minutes then adding the syrup

to see what changes occur in the texture.

The aluminum foil keeps the crust from burning and helps the pie retain

moisture.

The dish is palatable cold, but I prefer it warm.

 

 

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Artichoke Pie

Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:17:35 -0600

 

>The recipe says "a little Mace Whole". What is meant by "Whole" in

>this? It's probably not the whole nut since the outside is nutmeg

>and the inside is mace, right? Is "whole" just being ignored in

>this redaction?

 

Nutmeg is the seed.  Mace is a covering that wraps the nutmeg.  Both are

inside of a pod or fruit.  Blade or whole mace are the inner covering

removed from the nutmeg and dried.  I used ground mace because I had no

blade mace.

 

>And are "Raisons of the Sun" actually just raisins? Why the "of the

>Sun"? Were grapes also dried in ovens? Or were there other fruits

>than the grape that when dried were called "raisins"?

>Thanks,

> Stefan

 

Modernly the term raisin means a dried grape, but it derives from the Latin

"racemus" meaning "bunch of grapes."  In Middle English or Old French the

term appears to have been used to describe grapes, while "raisin of the sun"

is "dried grape."  I haven't chased the derivation fully so take that

commentary with a grain of salt.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 08:29:31 -0400

From: Jane Boyko <jboyko at magma.ca>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Middle Eastern Food

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

In "The Food Chronology" by James Trager he notes that the artichoke is used

by the Romans.  He quotes Pliny's "Historia Naturalis".  This is in the 1st

century. (p31)   The next mention of the artichoke is in 1533 and I will

quote here  "Cooks attending Catherine de' Medici introduce to France such

vegetables as broccoli, globe artichokes ... fonds d'artichauts...."  

(p91).

 

As to the Jerusalem Artichoke it seems to be a new world plant.  First

mention of it is in 1609 when the Virginia colony finds that its' food stocks

have run low.  Survivors take on different tasks (i.e. hunting, fishing and

gathering) of which they gather "...Jerusalem artichokes and other wild

plants" (p113).  It is again mentioned in 1616 with the French explorer

Samuel de Champlain.  He introduces the Jerusalem artichoke to France in

1616. At first it is known as the Canadian artichoke, the earth pear  

etc.

There is absolutely no mention of how the Jerusalem artichoke became  

known as the Jerusalem artichoke.

 

Okay, I have become too curious.

 

Here is an interesting url that recounts some of the history and  

naming of the Jerusalem artichoke.  http://www.vegparadise.com/highestperch26.html

 

Also if you check out Apicius there are three recipes using artichokes:

Artichokes with Fish-pickle dressing (Carduos)

Artichokes with Hot Herb dressing (Aliter carduos)

Cumin spiced artichokes (Aliter carduos elixos - steamed artichokes).

 

Hope this helps and clears up some of the questions surrounding  

artichokes.

 

Marina

 

 

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 11:06:57 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Middle Eastern Food

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Trager is a bad source to quote without deeper investigation.  He does not

differentiate between fact, suppositions and apocryphal tales.  I

generally use Trager as a starting point for further research.

 

A quick check of the Penguin Pliny shows no reference to artichokes or

cardoons, however it is an abridged edition and a complete reference may

show something.  Any of the comments about the "cooks Catherine de Medici

brought to France with her" is immediately suspect.  She was from a branch

of the Medicis with reduced fortunes from having been run out of Florence by

civil unrest.  Most of the retinue at her marriage belonged to her Uncle,

the Pope.  And it was not until her Regency for her son that she gained any

real power in France.

 

I think you may find the Jerusalem artichoke referenced in Thomas Hariot's A

Briefe and True Report of the New Found Land in Virginia (1588), but not

under that name.

 

The Flower and Rosenbaum edition of Apicius identifies the artichoke

referenced by the term "Carduus" as being Cynara cardunculus, the cardoon,

although they believe it to be "a species of globe artichoke."

 

The web site fails to provide particulars about where they got much of their

information, making it difficult to verify their history.  It should be

taken with a grain of salt.

 

Bear

 

 

> In "The Food Chronology" by James Trager he notes that the artichoke is used

> by the Romans.  He quotes Pliny's "Historia Naturalis".  This is in the 1st

> century.  (p31)   The next mention of the artichoke is in 1533 and I will

> quote here  "Cooks attending Catherine de' Medici introduce to France such

> vegetables as broccoli, globe artichokes ... fonds d'artichauts...." (p91).

> As to the Jerusalem Artichoke it seems to be a new world plant.  First

> mention of it is in 1609 when the Virginia colony finds that its' food stocks

> have run low.  Survivors take on different tasks (i.e. hunting, fishing and

> gathering) of which they gather "...Jerusalem artichokes and other wild

> plants" (p113).  It is again mentioned in 1616 with the French explorer

> Samuel de Champlain.  He introduces the Jerusalem artichoke to France in

> 1616.  At first it is known as the Canadian artichoke, the earth pear etc.

> There is absolutely no mention of how the Jerusalem artichoke became

> known as the Jerusalem artichoke.

> Here is an interesting url that recounts some of the history and

> naming of

> the Jerusalem artichoke.  

> http://www.vegparadise.com/highestperch26.html

> Also if you check out Apicius there are three recipes using artichokes:

> Artichokes with Fish-pickle dressing (Carduos)

> Artichokes with Hot Herb dressing (Aliter carduos)

> Cumin spiced artichokes (Aliter carduos elixos - steamed artichokes).

> Hope this helps and clears up some of the questions surrounding

> artichokes.

> Marina

 

 

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 10:22:55 -0700

From: david friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Middle Eastern Food

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

> In "The Food Chronology" by James Trager he notes that the artichoke is used

> by the Romans.  He quotes Pliny's "Historia Naturalis".  This is in the 1st

> century.  (p31)   The next mention of the artichoke is in 1533 and I will

> quote here  "Cooks attending Catherine de' Medici introduce to France such

> vegetables as broccoli, globe artichokes ... fonds d'artichauts...." (p91).

 

The problem is distinguishing references to the cardoon from

references to the artichoke. While I gather some people still

interpret the classical references as describing artichokes, the more

common view seems to be that Latin "cynara" etc. refer to the

cardoon. Apicius actually uses "carduos."

 

The plants are very similar--cardoons look like artichoke plants on

steroids (I have both growing here). But the "artichoke" part of the

cardoon is very small--you can boil it and eat it, but nobody but my

children would bother. What you eat is the stalk. My understanding is

that none of the classical references describe eating the flower bud,

the way you do with an artichoke, and some refer to eating the stalk.

 

> Also if you check out Apicius there are three recipes using artichokes:

> Artichokes with Fish-pickle dressing (Carduos)

> Artichokes with Hot Herb dressing (Aliter carduos)

> Cumin spiced artichokes (Aliter carduos elixos - steamed artichokes).

 

Reading the recipes, they sound rather more consistent with cardoons

(cook the stalk as an edible vegetable) than with artichokes.

--  

David/Cariadoc

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/

 

 

Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:24:20 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Cardoons vs. artichokes

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

There was a question from Cassie about artichoke recipes, and some

pondering from Duke Cariadoc about whether artichokes were found

earlier in period than the 1500s.

 

According to this essay by Clifford A. Wright, the experts are somewhat

certain that the artichoke was cultivated from the wild cardoon,

possibly by the Berbers, and that at least by 1536, they were known in

Italy, although one writer at the time in Venice asserts that

artichokes could only be found in the gardens of the Moorish quarter.

 

http://www.cliffordawright.com/history/artichoke.html

 

There seem to be a lot of interesting books in Mr. Wright's

bibliography for this essay, but most are in French, Latin, and

Spanish. I wonder if any of them have been translated into English.

 

What's really confusing for me is that my Sicilian grandmother

interchangeably used "artichoke" and "cardoon" to refer to the

globe-style vegetable we are familiar with. But with cardoons, you eat

the stems, not the bracts.

 

Gianotta

 

 

Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:04:45 -0700

From: Mark Hendershott <crimlaw at jeffnet.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cardoons vs. artichokes

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Our garden has a couple of cardoon plants.  We've tried to eat the stems a

couple of time but found them extremely bitter.  What are we doing

wrong?  Secondary use:  cut the flowers with a long stem as soon as they

are fully open, place dry in a vase or hang upside down.  They dry  

quickly and last for a long time.

 

Simon Sinneghe

Briaroak, Summits, An Tir

 

 

Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:05:41 -0700

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cardoons vs. artichokes

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

> Our garden has a couple of cardoon plants.  We've tried to eat the

> stems a couple of time but found them extremely bitter.  What are we

> doing wrong?

 

To begin with, you have to get them reasonably young. Beyond that,

you are supposed to pull out the fibers. If you do a web search for

"cardoon," you should be able to find modern recipes with the

relevant information.

--

David/Cariadoc

www.daviddfriedman.com

 

 

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:49:45 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Artichoke recipe (was re: Cardoons vs.

        artichokes)

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

-Gisnotta mentioned:

> What's really confusing for me is that my Sicilian grandmother

> interchangeably used "artichoke" and "cardoon" to refer to the

> globe-style vegetable we are familiar with. But with cardoons, you eat

> the stems, not the bracts.

 

Huh? What are part of the plant are the "bracts"?

 

Stefan

--------

My lord, in an artichoke the bracts are the fleshy leaf-like parts of

the plant that we eat. In any flowering plant, the bracts are the

leaves at the bases of the flowers. In artichoke or cardoon, the bracts

are numerous.

 

Someone had asked why the cardoons they have eaten from their garden

are stringy and bitter. First, you have to eat them young; don't try

and eat them when the plant gets really big. Second, you have to remove

the "strings" from the stems as part of the preparation; strip them

out.

 

And here's a favorite Christmas Eve artichoke recipe from my family.

It's simple and tasty and I gorge myself near to exploding on them. I

don't think it's period, per se, but it's a good finger food.

 

Artichoke heart frittate

 

Ingredients:

 

Two cans of artichoke hearts, rinsed to make them less salty, and

well-drained.

Two or three beaten eggs

Breadcrumbs (I like Cento or Progresso, but you could make your own if

inclined -- just make sure there's a good bit of grated Parmesan or

Romano cheese in there)

Olive oil for frying

 

In a large skillet, heat the olive oil to frying temperature. Take a

drained artichoke heart, dip it in the beaten egg, then roll it in the

breadcrumbs until well-coated, then place in the skillet. Put in the

hot oil; repeat until you have a skillet full, and fry until browned.

Drain the breaded, fried artichoke hearts on paper towels. Serve at

room temperature as an appetizer with lemon wedges.

 

Gianotta

 

 

Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:18:06 -0800 (PST)

From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] roast turkey

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

--- Terry Decker <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> I would point out that there are a number of cardoon recipes in Apicius

> which would certainly apply to the artichoke.  Apicius may be 1st Century,

> but extant copies of it certainly fall within SCA period.  As Latin had no

> word for the artichoke, carduus would have been used for both plants.

 

Here is a reference from the Harvard Common Press, which seems to

support the notion that Apicius'

"Artichoke" was very likely a cardoon:

 

"Professor Andrew Watson, following the botanist Georges Gibault,

claimed that the artichoke was

developed from the cardoon; that only the cardoon was known in the

Greco-Roan world, designated

by names such as kaktos, cynara, carduus, scolymus, and spondylium; and

that there is no reference

in classical literature to a plant of this family with edible flesh on

the bracts. Although J.

André suggests that several Roman authors may have referred to the

artichoke (or the cardoon)

using the word carduus, two of the most important authors, Palladius

and Pliny, say nothing that

would make one think that the plant is not the cardoon. A recipe found

in the Roman author

Apicius’scookbook sounds as if it was meant for the soft stems of the

cardoon rather than for the

artichoke. Theophrastos says explicitly that the stem of the kaktos is

eaten, so almost certainly

he was referring to the cardoon. He goes on to mention another

“tistle,” the pternix, which has

an edible receptacle but inedible bracts. "

 

 

Furthermore:

 

"It is impossible to tell whether the kharshuf used in the

thirteenth-century Hispano-Muslim

cookery book the Kitab al-tabakh fi al-Magrib wa’l-Andalus was an

artchoke or a cardoon. In any

case, other early cookery manuscripts such as the fourteenth-century Le

ménagier de Paris, the

anonymous Italian Libro di cucina, and the Viandier of Taillevent

conspicuously do not mention

artichokes."

 

> From this information, I assume that the Artichoke, though cultivated

> in Italy during SCA period, was not a 'mainstream' item.

 

William de Gradfort

 

 

Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:57:36 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: artichoke quote was roast turkey

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

The source of this section for all those wondering about the

Harvard Common Press source is

Clifford Wright's book Mediterranean Vegetables, 2001.

 

Johnnae

 

Chris Stanifer wrote:

> Here is a referene from the Harvard Common Press, which seems to

> support the notion that Apicius' "Artichoke" was very likely a cardoon:

> "Professor Andrew Watson, following the botanist Georges Gibault,

> claimed that the artichoke was

> developed from the cardon; that only the cardoon was known in the

> Greco-Roman world, designated

> by names such as kaktos, cynara, carduus, scolymus, and spondylium;

> and that there is no reference

> in classical literature to a plant of this family with edible flesh on

> he bracts. snipped

>> From this information, I assume that the Artichoke, though cultivated

>> in Italy during SCA period, was not a 'mainstream' item.

> William de Gradfort

 

 

Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:05:20 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: artichoke quote was roast turkey

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

If one continues reading in the same entry, one also finds that Wright mentions

the following as regards artichokes.

 

The nineteenth-century Italian botanist Targioni-Tozzetti describes the introduction of the artichoke to Tuscany around 1466, pointing out that Mattioli said it was brought to Naples from Sicily. As far as an early European distinction between the cardoon and the artichoke, the French historian Henri Bresc cites evidence of the artichoke being grownin the gardens of Norman Sicily

(1091–1194); the documents distinguish the plant from the cardoon.

Ermolao Barbaro, in his In Dioscoridem corollariorum libri quinque, finally published in 1530, writes that at the end of the fifteenth century artichokes were not always available in Italy; the implication may be that they were not particularly esteemed at that time. The artichoke, he said, speaking of Venice, is found only in the foreign gardens in the Moorish quarter.

The artichoke was brought to the New Wrld by the French and Spanish colonizers in the sixteenth century.  Today the Mediterranean and California are the major producers of artichokes.

 

Wright does not include or list Scappi as a source by the way.

 

 

Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:35:07 -0800 (PST)

From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: artichoke quote was roast turkey

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

--- Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> wrote:

> Ermolao Barbaro, in his In Dioscoridem corollariorum libri quinque,

> finally published in 1530, writes that at the end of the fifteenth

> century artichokes

> ere not always available in Italy; the implication may be that they were not

> particularly esteemed at that time. The artichoke, he said, speaking of

> Venice, is found only in the foreign gardens in the Moorish quarter.

 

There it is.  That was the articular quote which gave me the  impression that the artichoke was not a 'mainstream' or commonly used item in SCA period.  The impression  that it was grown only in selective gardens further impresses that it may have been more of a  cultural favorite, which didn't take well with the common man of Western Europe.  I may, in  fact, be mistaken about this, but that is the impression I am getting.  As always, if there is  further proof that the artichoke (and not the cardoon being mislabeled as an artichok) was more  prevailant in period, I'd love to see it.  I do likes me some artichokes.... ;)

 

William de Grandfort

Norman Invader

 

 

Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:29:25 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: artichoke quote

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

> --- Terry Decker <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>> If, as The Cambridge World History of food states, that the Ancient Romans

>> ate artichokes and brought them to the British Isles, your thesis doesn't

>> hold water.

> That reference may be a mistake. The jury is still out on this one.  The

> 'artichoke' of ancient Rome may well have been a cardoon...

> William de Grandfort

 

Yes the jury is still out, which is why one should not accept the passage of

Clifford Wright's you quoted as authority.  It avoids a number of linguistic

issues and opposing opinions, so Wright may be in error as much as you

believe the editors of The Cambridge World History of Food may be in error.

 

For example, Geffory Grigson in A Dictionary of English Plant Names suggests

that the cardoon was cultivated from the artichoke.  The Oxford Book of Food

Plants states that the globe artichoke was known to the Ancient Greeks and

Romans.  These sources are as authoritative and scholarly as Wright and they

disagree with his position.  Are they also mistaken?  I haven't checked

Fuchs yet or a number of other sources which I will as time permits.

 

At least one opinion is the artichoke is of Sicilian origin or that it is of

Carthaginian origin and transplanted to Sicily.  Not much evidence pro or

con, but it fits the timeline.  I like the argument, but I haven't put it to

the test.

 

What is obvious to me is the subject of artichokes deserves some serious

research into the sources of current opinion rather than authoritative

pronuncements based on absent, incomplete or erroneous sources with

argumentative contexts we don't understand.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 14:04:46 -0400

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

        <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] More Artichoke/Cardoon

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

Also sprach lilinah at earthlink.net:

> According to

> http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/book/chap6/artichoke.html

> "Cardoon (Cynara cardunculus L.) is similar to artichoke except that

> it is spiny and more robust. It is cultivated, on a much smaller

> scale than artichoke, for its edible root and thickened leafstalk.

> The inflorescence and pollination relationships are similar to

> artichoke (Bailey 1949*)."

> At a cooking workshop at Duke Cariadoc's some among us cooked

> cardoon leaves from His Grace's garden.

> But if that quote is true, one eats the roots (and possibly the

> stalk), not the leaves...

> Anyone with more experience care to comment?

> --

> Urtatim, formerly Anahita

 

I'd say that the statement that one eats the leafstalks but not the

leaves is akin to the statement that one eats the leaf base and not

the leaf tips of a mature globe artichoke...

 

Think of taking a globe artichoke and streee-eee-tching it until it's

as long as a head of celery, but otherwise fairly similar in

structure. That's your cardoon. You still eat the base of the leaves

(the leaf tips are fibrous and don't have much in the way of pulp)

and the "heart", which in the case of real cardoons, is part of the

root.

 

I don't have a lot of cardoon experience, but I've seen them in

markets, chased people obscenely with them. You know. The usual.

 

Adamantius

 

 

Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 23:51:55 -0700

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] More Artichoke/Cardoon

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

 

> I'd say that the statement that one eats the leafstalks but not the

> leaves is akin to the statement that one eats the leaf base and not

> the leaf tips of a mature globe artichoke...

> Think of taking a globe artichoke and streee-eee-tching it until

> it's as long as a head of celery, but otherwise fairly similar in

> structure. That's your cardoon. You still eat the base of the leaves

> (the leaf tips are fibrous and don't have much in the way of pulp)

> and the "heart", which in the case of real cardoons, is part of the

> root.

 

I do not believe that is correct.

 

A globe artichoke is a flower bud, not a bunch of leaves. A cardoon

has chokes just like a globe artichoke--but they are tiny. What you

eat are the leaves. The rib portion looks rather like celery.

Artichokes have the same sort of leaves--a cardoon plant looks like

an artichoke on steroids. My guess is that you could eat artichoke

leaves--the rib near the base--too, although I haven't tried.

--

David/Cariadoc

www.daviddfriedman.com

 

 

Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:43:44 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Ye old artichoke question (was new world foods;

        old world names)

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

<snip>Artichokes are an open question.  Clifford Wright makes a case for

artichokes not being known until very late and that the plant being

referenced is the cardoon.

<snip>

Bear

========================================================================

I just re-read Mr. Wright's 1996 essay; his argument was just not that  

the artichoke was known until very late in period, but that the ancient  

Greeks and Romans were probably referencing cardoons. He does seem to  

agree that the Arabs introduced the cultivated artichoke in Italy and  

in Spain. One of the Arabic words for the globe artichoke, kharshuf, is  

reminiscent of the Italian carciofi. His essay did make mention of  

artichokes being grown in the gardens of Norman Sicily.

 

In reading more of the history of Sicily and southern Italy, I am not  

surprised at all that it took awhile for the artichoke to make its way  

north to Tuscany. There still is cultural bias in the north of Italy  

against the Arabs and anyone generally seen as having Arab blood  

(Sicilians); I can't imagine taking a plant so associated with the  

Arabs and trying to introduce it any earlier than the 1500s would have  

been overwhelmingly successful.

 

Gianotta

 

 

Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 13:12:24 -0400

From: Aruvqan Myers <aruvqan at gmail.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] A Dishe of Artichokes Question

 

So I am over looking at artichoke recipes and this

Gem <http://medievalcookery.com/recipes/artechokes.html>;is causing me a

bit of trouble.

 

And I quote:

---------

One of the many vegetable dishes served in medieval England, this is

simple to prepare but still delicious and elegant.

 

10 - 12 artichoke bottoms, cooked

1/2 tsp. pepper

1/2 tsp. cinnamon

1/2 tsp. ginger

2 Tbsp. water

1 Tbsp. large crystal sugar

4 Tbsp. butter

dash vinegar

 

Mix pepper, cinnamon, and ginger with water. Bring to a boil and remove

from heat. Add artichoke bottoms and allow to marinate for 15 minutes.

Place into baking dish and add butter and vinegar. Bake at 350? for 15

minutes. Sprinkle with sugar and serve.

 

Source [The Good Huswifes Jewell

<http://www.medievalcookery.com/books.html#GHJ>,

T. Dawson]: *To make a dishe of Artechokes. Take your Artechokes and pare

away all the top even to the meate and boyle them in sweete broth till they

be somewhat tender, then take them out, and put them into a dishe, and

seethe them with Pepper, synamon and ginger, and then put in your dishe

that you meane to bake them in, and put in Marrowe to them good store, and

so let them bake, and when they be baked, put in a little Vinegar and

butter, and sticke three or foure leaves of the Artechoks in the dishe when

you serve them up, and scrape Suger on the dish.*

 

--------

 

So how does one seeth a dozen artichoke bases in 2 tablespoons of water?**

 

I think I would redact it by boiling up a dozen artichokes in a nice

chicken broth [sweet broth to me would mean something that hasn't been used

to boil up puddings for the past few weeks] and eating the leaves while

finishing off the dish [no sense in wasting good leaves] by taking about a

cup of the resulting chicken broth that I had just seethed the artichokes

in and simmering the pepper, cinnamon and ginger [adjusting the seasoning

to taste before chucking in the now prepared artichoke bases]

 

I think I would actually use marrow - I am not a vegetarian and it has a

good umami content. I would slice the marrow thinly and lay a slice in each

artichoke base, arrange them in an already blind baked shell and bake them

until the marrow is nice and gushy, and then sprinkle them with a nice

mellow wine vinegar mixed with melted butter. I would also make a blind

baked cover for them that is decorated with artichoke motifs and pop it on

over the sugar and decorative few artichok leaves. I think I would actually

lay a pattern of the little light green and purple heart leaves as they are

pretty. The pastry top could get cutwork like the neat Jacobean artichoke

patterns used for embroidery.

 

 

Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 11:40:27 -0700

From: "Daniel Myers" <dmyers at medievalcookery.com>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A Dishe of Artichokes Question

 

-------- Original Message --------

From: Aruvqan Myers <aruvqan at gmail.com>

Date: Tue, September 24, 2013 1:12 pm

 

So I am over looking at artichoke recipes and this

gem<http://medievalcookery.com/recipes/artechokes.html>;is causing me a

bit of trouble.

 

And I quote:

 

One of the many vegetable dishes served in medieval England, this is

simple to prepare but still delicious and elegant.

 

10 - 12 artichoke bottoms, cooked

 

[...]

 

So how does one seeth a dozen artichoke bases in 2 tablespoons of water?**

----------------------------------

 

Since that's my website and recipe, let's see if I can make things

clearer.

 

In short, you don't.  The artichoke bottoms are already cooked, as noted

in the ingredients list.  I probably should revisit this recipe (it's

been almost ten years since I posted it) to give a more detailed method.

 

It can be difficult to find a balance between authenticity and

accessibility, and I suppose I erred on the side of keeping things

simple. This is also why I omitted the marrow, which can be difficult

to find and can turn off those who are new to medieval cuisine (a

majority of the people using my website).

 

Of course you are welcome (and encouraged) to come up with your own

interpretation of the recipe.  After all, that's one of the reasons I

include the original source.

 

- Doc

 

<the end>



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