artichokes-msg - 1/7/08
Period artichokes. Recipes. Cardoons.
NOTE: See also the files: vegetables-msg, root-veg-msg, asparagus-msg, onions-msg, salads-msg, eggplant-msg, mushrooms-msg, peas-msg, beans-msg.
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This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:18:44 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes?
At 12:32 AM -0500 8/31/98, Stefan li Rous wrote:
>Are there medieval recipes using artichokes? Artichoke hearts? Are there any
>European recipes with these?
There seems some disagreement as to when the artichoke came into
existence--I discuss the question in the Miscellany article on what foods
are appropriate for period feasts. My own opinion is that the artichoke was
bred out of the Cardoon sometime during our period.
There are two recipes in the Andalusian cookbook which Charles Perry (the
translator) thinks refer to cardoons, but might conceivably be intended for
artichokes. They are:
Preparing a Dish With Cardoon
Take meat and cut it up, wash and put in the pot and pour over enough water
to cover. Put in the pot one spoon of oil, two of murri and one of
clarified butter, and soaked garbanzos, chopped onion and coriander seed.
Peel the cardoons, boil and cut up and throw pepper in the pot with them,
and when they are cooked, take two eggs and bread crumbs, cover the
contents of the pot well and leave over the coals until the grease comes
out, God willing.
Preparing a Dish of Cardoons with Meat
Take meat and cut it up, put in the pot with water, salt, two spoons of
murri, one of vinegar and another of oil, pepper, caraway and coriander
seed. Put on the fire, and when it is cooked, wash the cardoons, boil, cut
up small and throw over the meat. Boil a little, and cover the contents of
the pot with two eggs and bread crumbs, and sprinkle pepper on it in the
platter, God willing.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:20:45 +1000 (EST)
From: The Cheshire Cat <sianan at geocities.com>
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes?
>Are there medieval recipes using artichokes? Artichoke hearts? Are there any
>European recipes with these?
I have seen a referance to artichokes on the food table in the form of a
still life by Osias Beert (c. 1580 - 1624). This shows a young artichoke
ready to be eaten. Rather scant documentation I know, but it's all I have.
I also have one recipe for artichokes, however I have as yet failed
locate the original from my file. Here it is already redacted though.
Artichokes in cream sauce.
6 globe artichokes
300ml cream
1/2 tsp nutmeg
1 blade mace
1 tsp sugar
salt, pepper, lemon juice to taste
Fresh mint and 2 cloves garlic if liked
A knob of butter
Discard the coarse outer leaves of the artichoke, peel the stems and cook
the whole heads in salted water with a little mint and garlic, until
tender. Drain and cool. Remove the leaves, scraping away the flesh at the
bottom of each one. Cut off the stems and chop, keeping the bits to one
side.
Remove the hairy chokes and keep the bottoms. Heat the cream with the
spices and sugar until almost boiling, then beat in the butter and add a
little lemon juice to taste. Warn the artichoke bottoms through in the
sauce, taking care not to boil. Season the flesh from the leaves and warm
through. Pile this in the middle of your serving dish and pour the bottoms
in their sauce around it. Serve garnished with sprigs of mint.
I'll post the original when I find it.
- -Sianan
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 00:19:15 +0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes?
And it came to pass on 31 Aug 98, that david friedman wrote:
> At 12:32 AM -0500 8/31/98, Stefan li Rous wrote:
> >Are there medieval recipes using artichokes? Artichoke hearts? Are there any
> >European recipes with these?
>
> There seems some disagreement as to when the artichoke came into
> existence--I discuss the question in the Miscellany article on what
> foods are appropriate for period feasts. My own opinion is that the
> artichoke was bred out of the Cardoon sometime during our period.
The _Arte Cisoria_ by Enrique de Villena, is a 1423 Spanish carving
manual. It mentions both artichokes and cardoons. In discussing how
to carve artichokes, the author specifies that they are to be cut
"like the other cardoons".
No recipes are given, as this is not a cookbook, per se, but de
Villena mentions that artichokes can be served boiled or "adobado"
(pickled).
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper at idt.net
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:12:33 -0500
From: Mike and Pat Luco <mikel at pdq.net>
Subject: SC - Re: SC: artichokes
In Italy currently they eat the whole artichoke (fuzz and ALL). They use young
artichokes, not the full ones like you find commercially. This makes them tender and easily edible (YUM) They even stuff them with spec(?)( a type of italian bacon, which they have many types) and bread crumbs with lots of butter. You eat the whole thing with the exception of the points on larger leaves.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 22:26:38 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - artichokes-warning
mikel at pdq.net writes:
<< In Italy currently they eat the whole artichoke (fuzz and ALL). >>
Please do not try this at home, folks. A VERY, VERY, VERY young artichoke
maybe, but the fuzz in the center of the artichoke is needle sharp and can
literally 'choke' you to death if swallowed. The preojectiles also can, and
do, stick into your tongue, roof of your mouth and cheeks breaking off their
tips and causing excruciating pain.
Eating choke fuzz is one of those things that you must be experienced in
determining when the safety factor is surpasssed or have someone who knows
what they're doing teach you the proper age of the artichoke.
Ras
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 06:13:59 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - artichokes-warning
> << In Italy currently they eat the whole artichoke (fuzz and ALL). >>
>
> Please do not try this at home, folks. A VERY, VERY, VERY young artichoke
> maybe, but the fuzz in the center of the artichoke is needle sharp and can
> literally 'choke' you to death if swallowed.
>
> Ras
IIRC, sometime ago, one of the cooking shows (Jeff Smith?) was doing
artichokes and stated that the European artichokes and the American
artichokes were two different but related plants. Apparently the fuzz of the
European artichoke is edible, where the fuzz of the American artichoke is
not.
Bear
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:35:20 +0100
From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au>
Subject: RE: SC - artichokes-warning
Bear wrote
>IIRC, sometime ago, one of the cooking shows (Jeff Smith?) was doing
>artichokes and stated that the European artichokes and the American
>artichokes were two different but related plants. Apparently the fuzz of the
>European artichoke is edible, where the fuzz of the American artichoke is
>not.
As far as I am aware there is only one species, but there are certainly
several varieties (they are related to thistles incidentally).
If they are big - fist sized - I remove the choke because I don't like
eating prickles. If you miss a few they have an unpleasant texture but no
other side effects (and I've eating a few). If they are small - walnut sized
up to 2" - I don't bother. In between? depends how mature they look - after
a while you can tell by the colour and shape of the leaves, but I don't
think I could describe the difference :)
Rowan
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:42:39 -0400From: mermayde at juno.com (Christine A Seelye-King)Subject: SC - Artichoke Recipies Well, I was shopping tonight and found artichokes for .99 each,so I snapped some up. (Go ahead and scoff, but this is the best priceI've seen for these this year.) I have boiled them as usual, and havemade my standard curried mayonnaise*, and I thought, 'You know, we weretalking about artichokes on the Cook's List a while ago, and I saved someperiod recipies for them, why don't I do something like that for theevent tomorow?' So, I went looking, and only found two, one for the basesserved in a cream sauce, and one from Cariadoc about Meat with Cardoons. Didn't we have something resembling a vinaigrette, or am Iimagining things? Christianna
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:00:27 EDT
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:07:23 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Is tarragon period?
When artichokes appear seems at least mildly controversial. The Romans had
something they called "cynara," but some authorities think it was the
Cardoon. There seems to be some evidence that the artichoke was bred out of
the Cardoon in al-Andalus during SCA period, which would make it period for
at least the later centuries.
And I have both artichokes and cardoons growing in my garden. If the
cardoons grow enough I may even try eating them--the leaves are supposed to
be edible.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:45:53 -0700
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes
Stefan li Rous wrote:
> There do appear to be at least two types of artichokes. One is
> European and one is American. From this, I imagine what I see in
> the vegetable counters here in the US is the "Jerusalem artichoke",
> right?
Not around here! Generally in my experience, a 'Jerusalem Artichoke'
(which a sort of starchy tuber-oid thing) is clearly labelled such. It
looks _nothing_ like a standard artichoke. Standard artichokes are
usually about the size of a softball, and look like giant thistle heads-
which, of course, is what they are. They are green. Jerusalem artichokes
are brown. They are nothing alike and are not interchangable. I don't
know why the name is the way it is.
Artichokes are steamed or boiled, and then you dip the leaves (in melted
butter or mayonnaise, sometimes with lemon juice), and drag the inner
side of the leaves over your bottom teeth, scraping off the soft flesh.
All too delicious... *sigh* why do I feel like I've been writing soft
core? ;-)
'Lainie
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:12:34 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes
At 11:18 PM -0500 8/29/00, Stefan li Rous wrote:
>Ras declared:
>> melcnewt at netins.net writes:
>> << ow are these Jerusalem artichokes >>
>>
>> Jerusalem artichokes are new world.
>
>There do appear to be at least two types of artichokes. One is
>European and one is American. From this, I imagine what I see in
>the vegetable counters here in the US is the "Jerusalem artichoke",
>right?
Wrong.
Jerusalem artichoke is the root of a sunflower
("Girasol"="Jerusalem"). The bud of a giant thistle, eaten a leaf at
a time with melted butter or mayonaise, is artichoke--and is sold
under that name in the U.S. Jerusalem artichoke, in my experience, is
always sold under the full name.
Does anyone know why the entirely different American vegetable got
called an artichoke at all?
>Has anyone here tried both of
>these? Perhaps using the same recipe? Master Cariadoc? If so, how much
>differance is there between them?
As much as between lettuce and potato.
- --
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:19:34 -0000
From: "Nanna Rognvaldardottir" <nanna at idunn.is>
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes
Cariadoc wrote:
>Does anyone know why the entirely different American vegetable got
>called an artichoke at all?
Probably because the first European who described them (Samuel de Champlain,
who encountered them on Cape Cod in 1605) thought they tasted like artichokes
(or cardoons, which are related to artichokes). Champlain and Marc Lescarbot
returned to France in 1607 and seem to have brought the vegetable back with
them. Ten years later, Lescarbot wrote that the roots were so popular in
France that "today all the gardens are full of them".
Now the Jerusalem part is much more interesting. It is possibly a corruption
of Italian "girasole" (sunflower). The alternative theory is that Jerusalem
is a corruption of Terneuzen - a town in the Netherlands where artichokes
were grown in the early 17th century - a Dutch book of 1618 says the tuber
is known in the Netherlands as the "artichoke-apple of Ter Neusen".
The French name topinambour is actually the name of a Brazilian tribe - some
natives were brought to Paris in 1613, probably arrived at the same time as
the tuber was first seen in significiant quantities in the street markets,
and somehow the Indians and the new vegetable were mixed up, so for
centuries it was commonly believed that the topinambour came from South
America (in France at least - donšt know if this was also believed in
England, for instance).
Nanna
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:37:23 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes
david friedman wrote:
> Jerusalem artichoke is the root of a sunflower
> ("Girasol"="Jerusalem"). The bud of a giant thistle, eaten a leaf at
> a time with melted butter or mayonaise, is artichoke--and is sold
> under that name in the U.S. Jerusalem artichoke, in my experience, is
> always sold under the full name.
Jerusalem artichokes are always, AFAIK, sold either with the adjective
"Jerusalem" or under the name "sunchokes", and never called simply
"artichokes". Unqualified artichokes are green and thistly-looking, and
are, well, artichokes. However, sometimes stores that sell both use the
qualifier of "globe artichokes" to distinguish them from "Jerusalem artichokes".
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:46:57 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes
European artichokes or Globe artichokes are flower buds. They are green and
consist of overlapping scales.
ar*ti*choke (noun)
[Italian dialect articiocco, ultimately from Arabic al-khurshuf the
artichoke]
First appeared 1530
1 : a tall composite herb (Cynara scolymus) like a thistle with coarse
pinnately incised leaves; also : its edible immature flower head which is
cooked as a vegetable
***
Jerusalem artichokes are tubers which are cream colored and similar in
appearance to a skinless extremely knotty potato.
Je*ru*sa*lem artichoke (noun)
[Jerusalem by folk etymology from Italian girasole girasole]
First appeared 1641
: a perennial American sunflower (Helianthus tuberosus) widely cultivated
for its tubers that are used as a vegetable and as a livestock feed
Ras
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 21:41:02 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes
It's worth noting that although cardoons are closely related to
artichokes (the plant looks like an artichoke on steroids, with
miniature artichokes on it), what people normally eat is the leaf of
the cardoon not (as with the artichoke) the bud. So a cardoon recipe
would be quite different from a modern artichoke recipe.
- --
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 21:27:47 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes
stefan at texas.net writes:
<< Now "Peel the cardoons" >>
When you cut a cardoon the stalk will string like a stalk of old celery or
peel down like a stalk of rhubarb. That is what is meant by 'peel,' IMO.
Ras
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 18:34:50 GMT
From: orion at mailbag.com
Subject: SC - More Fuel for the Cardoon Fire
More than you ever wanted to know about Cardoons...
http://www.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/mod03/01701432.html
Alex
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 06:36:46 -0600
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Artichoke Pie
I've been playing in the kitchen again.
Bear
To Make an Artichoak Pye. Take the bottoms of six Artichoaks Boyled very
tender, put them in a dish, and some Vinegar over them. Season them with
Ginger and Sugar, a little Mace Whole, and put them in a Coffin of Paste.
When you lay them in, lay some Marrow and Dates slices, and a few Raisons of
the Sun in the bottom with a good store of butter. When it is half baked,
take a Gill of Sack, being boyled first with Sugar and a peel of Orange.
Put it into the Pye, and set it in the oven again, till you use it.
attributed to Hugh Platt, The Accomplisht Ladys Delight
1 8 or 9 inch pie shell
1 14 ounce can quartered artichoke hearts
2 Tablespoons of cider vinegar
1 teaspoon ginger
4 Tablespoons of sugar
1/2 teaspoon mace
1 teaspoon grated orange peel
1/4 cup raisins
1/2 cup chopped or sliced dates
2 Tablespoons of butter
1 Tablespoon of marrow (optional)
1 Cup Dry Sherry
Blind bake the pie shell 350 degrees F for 10 minutes.
Mix vinegar, one tablespoon of sugar, ginger and mace in a bowl.
Drain and rinse the artichoke hearts. Add to the vinegar mixture and turn
to coat thoroughly. Let stand for a half hour.
Put the Dry Sherry, three tablespoons of sugar, and the orange peel in a
small sauce pan and bring to a boil. Cook to form a thin syrup.
Mix the date and raisins and spread them in the bottom of the pie shell.
Add the marrow.
Spread the artichoke hearts on top of the dates, raisins and marrow.
Dot the top of the pie with butter.
Pour the Sherry syrup over the artichokes.
Cover with aluminum foil and bake at 350 degrees F for 30 minutes.