utensils-msg - 3/20/08 Period cooking gear. Utensils, trenchers, cast iron pots, wafer irons, salamanders. NOTE: See also these files: p-tableware-msg, feastgear-msg, trenchers-msg, iron-pot-care-msg, lea-bottles-msg, forks-msg, spoons-msg, horn-utn-care-msg, ovens-msg, spits-msg, wood-utn-care-msg, mortar-pestle-msg, nefs-msg. KEYWORDS: pots cast-iron pottery clay grills trivets gratings wafer irons. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with seperate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the orignator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) Date: 22 Oct 91 03:47:28 GMT Organization: University of Chicago Everyone knows that the fork was introduced at the end of our period. In fact, the earliest known picture of people eating with forks is about 12th or 13th century (I can check--it is shown in a V&A pamphlet on cutlery that I have). There are two Anglo-Saxon forks in the British museum, and the Cleveland Museum of Art has a Byzantine fork that is quite early (10th century? I don't remember). The fork does not seem to become a standard utensil until c. 1600, but it exists much earlier. Everyone knows that coffee has always been an important element in Islamic social life. In fact coffee does not spread out of its original home, probably Abyssinia, until about the middle of the fifteenth century; Cariadoc (c. 1100) has never heard of it. William de Corbie asks about the Swedish prejudice against eating horse meat. I believe the same prejudice shows up in the Norse Sagas. If I remember correctly, there is passage in one of them where someone insults someone else by accusing him of eating mare's meat. Does anyone remember where? Cariadoc From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: iron pots Date: 13 May 1994 20:36:18 GMT Organization: Department of Chemistry locksley at indirect.com (Joe Bethancourt) wrote: > ALBAN at delphi.COM wrote: >> [synopsis] bought a used pot, unknown past, how to clean, safety? > > So what's the problem? We cook in iron pots and pans around here all the > time. You scour it with steel wool, oil it with olive oil, and use the > silly thing. Just keep it oiled and don't let it rust. errr, yes, but... there can be a few problems... it could have been used as a solder pot, or coated with stove blacking to look nice. Some stove blackings are made of black lead. When I get a new pot or whatever, I test it for lead using a lead test strip. You can buy these at various ceramic supply places. You get the strip wet, and place it on the object... after a while a color change indicates the presence of lead. If there is no lead, I strip paints and blacking with paint stripper, followed by a bath with Muriatic acid. The acid eats a lot of paints and iron oxide but attacks cast iron very slowly. I then test it for lead again, just to make sure nothing had been sealed below the surface. Then I season, etc. Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus From: charlesn at sunrise.srl.rmit.EDU.AU (charles nevile) Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Request:medieval feast Date: 27 Sep 1994 06:12:25 GMT Organization: Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, Melbourne, Australia. [....] Plates were certainly around - it is correct that trenchers were given either to servants, or more commonly to 'the poor'. We use them quite frequently, and we just use a heavy loaf, round and about a handspan or more across, and thick enough to slice donwe the middle (more or less). They work remarkably well, but people tend to eat them as they go, so that they are both too full to enjoy the later and nicest parts of the feast, and in any case have nothing left to put it on... have fun charles ragnar hraldsson, new varangian guard, vlachernai garrison From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Pot Use Date: 5 Jan 1995 03:28:10 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Thomas S. Arnold (tarnold at hamp.hampshire.edu) wrote: : Does anybody know how they cooked over an open fire in-Period? I've : tried cooking without an iron grate, but find it annoying... I believe one solution was to use a trivet -- an iron ring with three longish legs. Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn From: corun at access1.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Pot Use Date: 5 Jan 1995 06:36:36 -0500 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Heather Rose Jones <hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote: >Thomas S. Arnold (tarnold at hamp.hampshire.edu) wrote: > >: Does anybody know how they cooked over an open fire in-Period? I've >: tried cooking without an iron grate, but find it annoying... > >I believe one solution was to use a trivet -- an iron ring with three >longish legs. One year at Pennsic, as I was on an early morning walkabout taking some photos of the various camps, I camp upon the Septentrians, and my friend, Lady Tamarra, was making scones on an iron contraption that I thought was rather unique. Not having the photograph with me, let me see if I can conjure the image in my mind's eye for you. It was the basic three long legs, bound at the top by a ring, and hanging from chains was a flat iron disk suspended at a comfortable level above the fire. The scones, btw, were delicious. Septentria is known (at least to me personally) for their period cooking accoutrements. One year they built a daub and wattle (if that's the right terminology for mud and straw) oven. They baked breads and even a turkey at Pennsic. If I remember aright, the oven was built up of firebrick, and a large wok was inverted over the top of it. The whole was then covered with mud and straw and left to harden. Corun =============================================================================== Corun MacAnndra | "Have Mr. Labreay mount the 50 cals, and tell him Dark Horde by birth | to watch out for icebergs and take no prisoners." Moritu by choice | An anonymous Coast Guard Captain in NY Harbour From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Period (Cooking) Pot Use Date: 5 Jan 1995 14:05:48 -0500 Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. Thomas the Tent-Peg of Bergental, amidst a fair quantity of jokery, asked a real question that no one else has taken up, so I thought I'd give it a try. >Does anybody know how they cooked over an open fire in-Period? I've >tried cooking without an iron grate, but find it annoying... This isn't an area in which I've done a whole lot of research, so this answer is rather rough-and-ready. It rather depends on who you mean by "they". If you mean people preparing food for the middle and upper classes, there's little evidence I've ever seen that they did. Pilgrims ate their hot meals at way stations (inns, etc.). Other travellors, one presumes, did much the same. There is some evidence that some hunting parties would have elaborate meals at midday, but none whatsoever I have seen (I haven't gone digging for it, you understand -- but I have had an active eye out for some years, and have seen nothing amid the other stuff I've found) that they were prepared over open fires (as opposed to prepared in the kitchen, and brought out and maybe reheated (or maybe not) under very controlled circumstances. Armies certainly ate in the field. But armies travelled with huge trains of wagons that carried their food (and other gear); the sensible solution, if you have those, is a portable kitchen. My impression is that hot food preparation for armies was semicentralized; if that is true, it suggests that they brought lots of stuff with them, and what they were doing cannot reasonably be called "cooking over an open fire". That being said, there are a number of "cook over the kitchen fire" techniques that can be adapted to a more rustic setting. One is a good solid tripod (or good solid spit) from which hangs chains with hooks at multiple levels, and a long-handled instrument (usually iron) for catching the bail of a pot and transferring it from one hook to another, to bring it closer to and further from the pot. Another is the use of a trivet (iron stool, with a reasonable sized flat top, not solid -- in fact, mostly open) with long enough legs to keep the flat surface out of the coals and flame. Use it as you would a stove-top burner, to set pots and pans on. Adapt the heating level by increasing/decreasing the amount of coals underneath. (This is essentially a refinement of the pot-with-legs approach.) In either case, you want cooking implements (spoons, forks, etc.) with _far_ longer handles than you are probably used to working with. I have such a trivet, made by Brock the Smith (Magic Badger Iron Works). He also sells tripods (and spits), and some of the relevant implements, and would doubtless make others to order. I've used the tripod through several wars. I'm not as handy with fine temperature control of fires as I might be, so I admit to finding a gas stove simpler, but it works fine, except that it really only takes one good-sized pot at a time. Three or four of them would make a reasonable start at a decent kitchen for real meals; one works okay for one-pot meals. One word of advice: if you want a spit to roast meat on, you want more than just a piece of iron to go through the meat and across to supports. You want it to have a system of little knife-like stickers around one end, to hold the meat in place. Otherwise, you will turn the spit inside the meat, while the same (heaviest) side remains stubbornly toward the flame, giving you a roast that is burned on one side and raw on the other. -- Angharad/Terry From: andrew at bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period (Cooking) Pot Use Date: 5 Jan 1995 21:30:35 GMT Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland I missed the original question, but I did research this once, and tried out some of the results. A warning, though - I don't have my references handy. This will give you something to look for, though. I had a friend who's a potter investigate this as well, and she custom-made some clay "pot-with-legs" after a 12th century German design. I used these at Pennsic one year and was greatly pleased by them. To cook, you put the pot directly over the coals once the flames have died down. The heat seems to stay concentrated near the coals, and the pot can be lifted by hand using the two "rings" of clay set into the rim. The pot can also be lifted out of the fire and set on the ground nearby, and will retain the heat on the bottom long enough to do more cooking with nice gentle, even, heat. Some things become quite trivial to cook this way. My first attempt was a period Spinach recipe. With added instructions for some of the the cooking implements, it became: Clean spinach and remove stems. Heat water to boiling in pot over coals, boil the spinach leaves for a few minutes. Remove pot from coals and drain the water, pressing the spinach with a wooden spoon to help drain it. Remove and chop up the boiled spinach. By then the water has evaporated from the pot. Put some olive oil in the pot and let it heat. Add spinach and some ground nutmeg, and sautee, using the wooden spoon as a spatula, for a minute or two. Ten minutes to cook, only one pot, and not much fuss except for the initial cleaning and de-stemming of the spinach. : In either case, you want cooking implements (spoons, forks, : etc.) with _far_ longer handles than you are probably used : to working with. Watch out of heat transmission through the handles of metal implements of all sorts. Wooden-ended handles are a good thing. Miklos Sandorfia andrew at bransle.ucs.mun.ca From: Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period (Cooking) Pot Use Date: Sat, 07 Jan 1995 02:37:00 -0800 On the subject of metal handles: some period utensils had split and re-woven handles. For some reason, this keeps the handles cool. (This is why those old-timey wood stoves have the spring-like handles. Same principle. Ask your local smith!) ... Moreach From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period (Cooking) Pot Use Date: 9 Jan 1995 18:00:11 -0500 Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. Eyrny responds to Moreach: >>On the subject of metal handles: some period utensils had split and >>re-woven handles. For some reason, this keeps the handles cool. (This is >>why those old-timey wood stoves have the spring-like handles. Same >>principle. Ask your local smith!) > >But they do get hot. It may take longer but it happens. Well, sure they get hot if you leave them on the heat. So do wooden ones. The trick with any implement over _any_ heat source, is not to leave it sitting exposed to the heat. Use it. Set it aside. Use it. Set it aside again. Few handles heat intollerably while being used, say, to stir something, faster than the hand and arm do on their own. But yes, the best metal implement handles are not solid -- and are long enough to keep both the handle and the hand well out of the fire. -- Angharad From: millsbn at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca (Bruce Mills) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: cooking for fifty Date: 19 Apr 1995 15:18:05 -0400 Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Teach Mr T <teachmrt at aol.com> wrote: ]>Feeding the masses makes for happy masses. ]> ]>Actually, we'll have a fire pit, plus big pots and all the usual ]>accoutrements. ]> ]>Liam O'Donnabhan Something that I have devised that I have found handy: Make a frame of angle iron, drilled at the corners so you can bolt it together (and take it apart), sized to fit grills from ovens. The grills actually stand up to the heat of a fire pretty well, although you could probably make a heavy duty grill out of welded rod if you wanted. The one I have devised will fit three oven grills; you can cook stuff right on the grill, or it will hold reasonably sized pots and pans. What I am looking for now is a flat iron griddle, about the size of one of the grills, that will fit right into the frame, and fry on that, instead of having to use pans (I find the eggs don't stay on the grill very well). Steam trays would be nice, too. Akimoya(-dono) From: gheston at nyx.cs.du.edu (Gary Heston) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: cooking for fifty Date: 23 Apr 1995 20:10:33 -0600 Diana Parker <parkerd at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca> wrote: >I'd just like another set of ideas for using my forged iron tripod. >I can't afford the $300-600 for a cauldron, and I'm not sure what else to >use it for. So far I've cooked a whole ham. It worked great, and the >ham turned out fine. What size cauldron are you looking at? I've found one of about 2 gallon size at an auction for $10. Bean/wash pots are also common for about the same price/size (these have straight sides instead of the indentation at the top). >What's next??? I suppose you could attach a grate to the legs, and cook on that. Gary From: jtn at cse.uconn.EDU (J. Terry Nutter) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Cooking for fifty Date: 23 Apr 1995 16:37:08 -0400 Greetings, all, Angharad ver' Rhuawn here. Tabitha asks, > I'd just like another set of ideas for using my forged iron tripod. > I can't afford the $300-600 for a cauldron, and I'm not sure what else to > use it for. So far I've cooked a whole ham. It worked great, and the > ham turned out fine. > > What's next??? Any pot or dutch oven with a bail (that is, a hoop, usually wire or iron, to hold it by, like pails have) can be hung from a tripod. I have a number of these that I picked up cheap (in the $5 to $15 range), mostly at flea markets or Good Wills or the like; some are cast iron, some aluminum. I don't use that many of them, because I also have a trivet, roughly stool-high, that I use as a camp stove, but they certainly work. Get a length of chain that will hang from the tripod to not much above fire height, and some S-hooks. Put the S-hooks into the chain at different heights; you can now suspend your pot high up to stay warm, slightly lower to simmer, or quite low to boil. -- Angharad/Terry From: STDDLY at TINY_TIM.SHSU.EDU (7/11/95) To: Mark Harris > Reply to: Cauldrons > > What did you cook in your cauldron? How big of a cauldron was > it? Was it made of iron or something else? Did you season it > first? > > You mention that it's like a giant round bottomed skillet. > Does this mean you can brown meat in it first, then add > the other ingredients? Or did you simply throw everything > in and cook as a stew or soup? > > Stefan li Rous Greetings once more! Ya, they are just like a _big_ cast iron skillet. Clean them thoroughly, season them well with cooking oil. Yes you can brown meat in them, or just toss it all in and hope for the best. It's always best to cook everything in the same order that you would at home i.e. meat, onions, potatoes, celery, right down to mushrooms last. This is for a stew, of course. Rule of thumb: Hardest/longest to cook...first in. My cauldrons are about 15-20 each, cast iron, and _heavy_. For feasts I use hi-pressure burners to bring the large amounts of water/food to a quick boil...then turn them way down to simmer. On spices...for most spices, use handsful. Of course, be careful with them, taste often, enjoy. After the meal, clean well, season well, and store in a well ventilated, dry space. Happy cooking!! A. Kief av Kiersted (sometimes cook) L. Cockerham, Texan P.S. Do NOT "nest" your cauldrons to transport...they will crack. From: WILLIAM MICHALSKI <wjmichalski at beta.delphi.com> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: cast iron repair? Date: 30 Aug 1995 12:45:27 GMT ook at u.washington.EDU ('Riff' Beth Marie Mc Curdy) wrote: > My household been looking for a big cauldron for some time, and I >finally found one. Beautifully shaped, cast-iron, and easily two feet >across the mouth... and some *idiot* had drilled a pair of holes in the >bottom so as to use it as a planter. > > In addition to knocking an easy $200 of the value of item, these >holes render the cauldron fairly useless for boiling water, bubbling >stews, and doing other cauldron things. I don't know about patching, but I do have pricing info from a place called "Iron Craft", out of Ossipee, NH. A new "sugar kettle" of 24" diameter is about $750 plus tax, shipping, etcetera. It has 24 gallon capacity, and weighs just over 100 lbs. They also offer ones in other sizes, ranging from 1.5 quart to 100 gal. To get a catalog, write: Iron Craft PO Box 369 Ossipee, NH 03864 or call 800-527-2079 (In NH 539-4114) Mikhail From: woofie at capital.NET (Susan Evans) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Trenchers Date: 10 Dec 1995 22:48:02 -0500 >I've been thinking about doing this at the next event we go to. Is >there anyone upon this bridge who has actually done this, or who can >refer me to some reliable sources? What kind of bread? (Ie. white, >wheat, etc.) What dimensions are period/preferable? Does it have to >stale a bit before use? Should I make a bread "bowl" for soup, or >would it be more period to use a wooden bowl for hot liquids? >Should my lord and I share the bread trencher? > >I'll be grateful for any advice. I do regularly bake my own bread, >so I don't need help with the basics. > >Robin Carroll-Mann ** rcmann at delphi.com >SCA: Brighid ni Chiarain, Settmour Swamp, East A good source of this information is "A Boke of Nurture" which is part of the old Early English Text Society publications. It may be available on inter-library loan. Also available from Falconwood Press as a reprint. The bread quality varies depending upon the status of the diner - nobles get the good stuff and the peasants get coarse. We've used trenchers locally for stews. Obviously you want a bread with a decent crust and some body to the loaf. The high table had a trencher seated upon several other trenchers - sort of a place-mat effect, I think. I strongly recommend the book as it even gives the proper ceremony for cutting up the bread, setting the table, etc. It's way too long to write out here. Yes, you can share a trencher with your lord, BTW. If you can't get an inter-library copy, you can get a copy of the Falconwood catalog from me. Shoshonnah jehanne ferch Emrys, OL From: jtn at newsserver.uconn.edu (Terry Nutter) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Trenchers Date: 11 Dec 1995 06:46:44 GMT Organization: The University of Connecticut Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. Mistress Shoshonnah Jehanne ferch Emrys wrote: : A good source of this information is "A Boke of Nurture" which is part of : the old Early English Text Society publications. It may be available on : inter-library loan. Also available from Falconwood Press as a reprint. The : bread quality varies depending upon the status of the diner - nobles get the : good stuff and the peasants get coarse. I'm a little confused. From my reading of Russell's Boke of Nurture (which I assume is the one you mean? in Furnivall's volume called _Early English Meals and Manners_?), the only distinction among kinds of bread is that the lord of the hall gets today's baking, others who are not servants get one day old, servants get three day old, and trenchers are made of four day old. There is no suggestion that the original quality varies -- and no mention at all of feeding peasants. By peasants, did you mean servants? And by coarse, did you mean, less fresh? Or have you found something I have not? : We've used trenchers locally for : stews. Obviously you want a bread with a decent crust and some body to the : loaf. But Russell describes squaring the trenchers, and slicing them vertically, eliminating the crust. Are you inferring a strong crust from the fact of good body, or from something else? : The high table had a trencher seated upon several other trenchers - : sort of a place-mat effect, I think. I strongly recommend the book as it What I see, is a description of two separate things. First, there is a layering of the table linens -- to provide a showy presentation surface. (In fact, the poem specifies, at one point, that a top layer is to be pleated elaborately to provide such a surface for the Sewer, whose job is to arrange dishes.) Second, the high table's bread, including the sliced and restacked trenchers, start out elaborately wrapped in linen in front of the lord's seat -- but as soon as service starts, they are moved away, and the lord winds up only with his own trencher. At least, this is how I read the passage from line 208 to 268. Have I missed a reference elsewhere? : I strongly recommend the book as it : even gives the proper ceremony for cutting up the bread, setting the table, : etc. It's way too long to write out here. No kidding. Yes, it's outstanding -- though after a while, I get frustrated at the things it doesn't bother to mention, as it takes them for granted (including, for instance, when the pottage gets into bowls, and what sort; exactly how the kitchen serves out, and what the Sewer does with the stuff once he gets it; and so on). And it's worth remembering that all this is just one man's notion of how it should be done.... : Yes, you can share a trencher with your lord, BTW. This makes sense, but can you specify a reference for it? -- Angharad/Terry From: "L. HERR-GELATT and J.R. GELATT" <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking) Date: 10 May 1996 21:38:26 GMT Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc. To quote those in the know about metalurgy (quoting ME): kellogg at rohan.sdsu.edu (kellogg) wrote: >David Friedman (ddfr at best.com) wrote: >: Lady Aoife Finn wrote: > >: > Of course, I am referring to a large, heavy, round, footed, flat-top >: > cast-iron pot, such as is frequently illustrated hanging over the open >: > fires (!) in ancient kitchens. > >: Can you give period examples of such pictures? I associate cast iron pots >: with something a little later than our period, but don't really know. The >: metal cooking vessels I have seen from early period seem to be rivetted >: together. > >: Messibugio (16th century) has pictures of pots, but I can't tell if they >: are cast--the handles appear to be rivetted on, which suggests a raised >: metal pot (why not cast them if you are casting the pot)? My vague memory >: is that the English were casting iron cannon before 1600, so you would >: think they could do it. On the other hand, cast pots tend to be heavy, and >: if iron was still expensive .... . > > I believe that the blast furnace, needed to cast iron, was not >invented until after 1700. All the cast cannon I've seen from before that >were brass. However, the Chinese could cast iron during our period. >They used a different process, and I believe had access to better ores >than the West. > > All the examples of iron pots from viking sites are raised (hammered) >peices. Small pots may be of a single piece, but large cauldrons are >frequently several lames overlapped and riveted together. These, of >course, are early/middle period. > > Unfortunately, all my references are at home, and a fairly exhaustive >Web search has turned up nothing that might provide an answer. > > Avenel Kellough And, I reply: The first volume off the bookshelf proved to be Farmhouse Cookery (English), Reader's Digest association, London, copyright 1980, with an illustration that appears to be a wood-block, but source not being given we shall never know. At any rate, there is a large pot in the picture hanging from a chain attached to the overhead beam (caption: the price of poverty.......), with a spit and drip-pan underneath, in the section entitled The Medieval Peasant's Kitchen. Included are illustrations of various cooking instruments including a boiler (riveted) and a legged fry pan (either raised or cast, it is unclear). It is possible the large pot I referred to was also raised. A few pages over, an Elizabethan kitchen is shown, with a smaller version of the very same pot now hanging by ratcheded chain in a large fireplace (spit and drip pan still in place, but now operated by a pulley and weight system rather than a small child). Side illustrations show (sorry it's secondary scholarship) "Chimney crane. A crane was a *cast iron* bracket--fixed to the wall beside the fireplace--that could be swung out to support the pot. Designs were often highly ornamental." Next tome off the shelf: Old Cook Books,An Illustrated History, Eric Quayle, Studio Vista Books, London, copyright 1978. we see a piece of artwork by Pieter van der Borcht, showing a 16th century kitchen with a very clearly arranged pot and chimnet crane. If the crane is cast, why not the pot? Gentlemen, will that do? Aoife From: powers at brain.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking) Date: 10 May 1996 19:27:32 -0400 Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science >A few pages over, an Elizabethan kitchen is shown, with a smaller version >of the very same pot now hanging by ratcheded chain in a large fireplace >(spit and drip pan still in place, but now operated by a pulley and >weight system rather than a small child). Side illustrations show (sorry >it's secondary scholarship) "Chimney crane. A crane was a *cast iron* >bracket--fixed to the wall beside the fireplace--that could be swung out >to support the pot. Designs were often highly ornamental." > >If the crane is cast, why >not the pot? >Gentlemen, will that do? >Aoife Good Aoife; I really doubt the crane was cast iron; I have never seen a cast iron crane and since I am a smith I do look! Are you sure the authors know the difference between wrought iron and cast, (especially after long exposure to the fire/water/ashes?. I have checked a couple of references and none contain a cast iron crane while all refer to "wrought iron" cranes. Perhaps the Reader's Digest book has a typo. Does anyone have knowledge of "cast iron" cranes? wilelm the smith who supports later period cast iron pots but *not* cast iron cranes. From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking) Date: 11 May 1996 03:39:19 GMT "L. HERR-GELATT and J.R. GELATT" <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> wrote: > The first volume off the bookshelf proved to be Farmhouse Cookery > (English), Reader's Digest association, London, copyright 1980, with an > illustration that appears to be a wood-block, but source not being given > we shall never know. Could easily be post period. And any way, as you make clear, we don't know if the pot illustrated was cast iron. > A few pages over, an Elizabethan kitchen is shown, with a smaller version > of the very same pot now hanging by ratcheded chain in a large fireplace > (spit and drip pan still in place, but now operated by a pulley and > weight system rather than a small child). Side illustrations show (sorry > it's secondary scholarship) "Chimney crane. A crane was a *cast iron* > bracket--fixed to the wall beside the fireplace--that could be swung out > to support the pot. Designs were often highly ornamental." And secondary scholarship by someone we know nothing about. I don't know the book, but the title doesn't suggest anything particularly scholarly. > Next tome off the shelf: Old Cook Books,An Illustrated History, Eric > Quayle, Studio Vista Books, London, copyright 1978. we see a piece of > artwork by Pieter van der Borcht, showing a 16th century kitchen with a > very clearly arranged pot and chimnet crane. If the crane is cast, why > not the pot? But how can you tell from the picture that the chimney crane is cast and not forged? So far the only evidence for that is an assertion by an unknown secondary source. And besides, casting a pot is a whole lot harder than casting a chimney crane. For what it is worth, Molly Harrison in _The Kitchen in History_ describes chimney cranes as being wrought iron. She describes utensils as being made of "iron, copper or brass" but doesn't say (so far as I have spotted so far) whether they were cast. > Gentlemen, will that do? > Aoife No, but it's a start. David/Cariadoc -- ddfr at best.com From: kellogg at rohan.sdsu.edu (kellogg) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking) Date: 13 May 1996 16:10:28 GMT Organization: San Diego State University Computing Services I believe I accidently sent the information I meant to post directly to his Grace Cariadoc, rather than here, so I will try again. I did some looking up this weekend, and I was flat wrong on casting iron. According to the _Encyclopaedia Brittanica_, the Chinese were casting iron by the 6th century BCE, and iron casting technology appears in Europe by the 12th century CE. However, it remained a marginal technology until the 17th. Early Blast furnaces were used to produce pigs of iron that would then be wrought. The technology to produce malleable cast iron, however did not appear until the 18th century, which is probably what I was thinking about. According to _The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms and Armor_, most cannon were wrought iron until the 15th century, when cast bronze became predominant. However, some iron-rich countries, like England, experimented with cast iron cannon, as they were much cheaper than the bronze ones. Henry VIII established a foundry in Sussex for just this purpose. The cast iron cannon were vastly inferior to the bronze ones, and tended to explode. Burke's _Life in a Medieval Castle in England_ shows a cast bronze cooking pot, with no date attributed, that has three very long feet and rings for hanging. _The Viking_ by Almgren, Blindheim, and Eldjarn shows two iron pots. There is a small one made by raising from sheet iron, and a larger one made by dishing 6 - 8 lames, and riveting them to each other and to a dished bottom. I feel that cast iron pots for late period are likely. While I haven't yet found one, it makes sense that if cast iron cannon are cheaper than cast bronze cannon, then cast iron pots are likely cheaper than cast bronze, of which we know that at least one was made. Avenel Kellough From: Karsten Shein <K.Shein at uea.ac.uk> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking) Date: 14 May 1996 09:03:09 GMT Organization: Climatic Research Unit-University of East Anglia kellogg at rohan.sdsu.edu (kellogg) wrote: >David Friedman (ddfr at best.com) wrote: >: Lady Aoife Finn wrote: > >: > Of course, I am referring to a large, heavy, round, footed, flat-top >: > cast-iron pot, such as is frequently illustrated hanging over the open >: > fires (!) in ancient kitchens. > >: Can you give period examples of such pictures? I associate cast iron pots >: with something a little later than our period, but don't really know. The >: metal cooking vessels I have seen from early period seem to be rivetted >: together. > >: Messibugio (16th century) has pictures of pots, but I can't tell if they >: are cast--the handles appear to be rivetted on, which suggests a raised >: metal pot (why not cast them if you are casting the pot)? My vague memory >: is that the English were casting iron cannon before 1600, so you would >: think they could do it. On the other hand, cast pots tend to be heavy, and >: if iron was still expensive .... . > > I believe that the blast furnace, needed to cast iron, was not >invented until after 1700. All the cast cannon I've seen from before that >were brass. However, the Chinese could cast iron during our period. >They used a different process, and I believe had access to better ores >than the West. > > All the examples of iron pots from viking sites are raised (hammered) >peices. Small pots may be of a single piece, but large cauldrons are >frequently several lames overlapped and riveted together. These, of >course, are early/middle period. > > Unfortunately, all my references are at home, and a fairly exhaustive >Web search has turned up nothing that might provide an answer. > > Avenel Kellough I'll quote "Norwich Households: Medieval and Post-Medieval Finds from Norwich Survey Excavations 1971-78" p.90..."IV. Vessels (copper alloy; iron; wood; glass) Copper alloy vessels... In general, the assemblages contain very few copper allow vessels, which reflects their high cost as compared with ceramic or wooden vessels.... Part of a large bowl made of hammered copper alloy sheet with an everted rim survives (566). Cast cauldrons and skillets [3-legged bowl shaped with long handles--not to be confused with modern definition] are represented. Legs of two types are known; straight ridged legs (565), and legs with feet, perhaps from ewers (567B, 568, 569). .... Cauldrons are shown in use in a marginal illustration in the 14th-century 'Romance of Alexander' (Fig. 56): they have [looped] handles, and at least one has three legs; the two smaller cauldrons contain other vesssels, probably ceramic, and presumably functioned as double-boilers. Such vessels were in use throughout the Middle Ages, eityher in an open fire, or suspended from a hook above it." and p. 94..."Iron vessels, by Ian H. Goodall ... Iron vessels are among the least well represented items of kitchen ironwork, partly because in the medieval period, as no doubt later too, copper alloy vessels were far more numerous than those of iron (Field 1965, 135-45; Moorhouse 1987, vi-viii). The iron vessels from Norwich, 581-590, are of both medieval and later date .... The most significant individual find, however, [is] a long-handled pan... The bowl of this pan is fragmentary but the long, solid, tapering handle, designed to keep the user away from the fire, and to limit the conduction of heat, is almost complete. Pans of this form are not infrequently depicted in illustrations close to the date of the 1507 fire, including the Kuchmaistrey published in Augsburg that year...and that of a pan-smith in 1544. One with a flatter pan is shown in a 15th-century French manuscript. 582-585 are cast iron vessel fragments of post-merdieval date, 584, from a cauldron, being the most notable. They may be comapred with similar 17th-century cast-iron vessels from Chingley Forge, Kent, and elsewhere..." note: The illustration of the pan looks like it is all hammered work (not cast) and it resembles a modern frying pan with a dished bottom (almost like a giant dipper [ladle]). Cheers KS From: powers at brain.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking) Date: 15 May 1996 22:00:58 -0400 Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science >note: The >illustration of the pan looks like it is all hammered work (not cast) and >it resembles a modern frying pan with a dished bottom (almost like a >giant dipper [ladle]). >KS I've taken the liberty of hacking quite a bit off the top, (call me Sweeny); to make mention of a simple and inexpensive method for forming such a skillet. Start with a pressed iron skillet, (fleamarket US$1-5) and dish the bottom (Any armourer should be able to help with a stump-sandbag-dishing stake) Once it has been dished and planished you can rivet legs to it and cut off the original handle and rivet a long tapering handle to it. This will not conduct heat exactly like cast iron----but forged pots are also known. wilelm the smith From: ateno at panix.com (E. Rhude) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: "Seasoning" Cast Iron Ware Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 22:27:56 -0400 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC rolf at deltainet.com (Pendraco) wrote: > Cast iron is my favorite type of pan, but I have carpel tunnel in my > wrists so I can't lift any but the smallest skillets. I've been using > my grandmother's square skillet for about fifteen years (and I got it > after my mom used it for twenty years, and my grandmother for who > knows how long). It sounds like a lot of work, but it really only > takes a few seconds. Agreed completely with your views on cast iron cookware, but it does have its limitations, like everything else. For instance, certain things like various fruit dishes tend to discolor when cooked in iron. My solution is often to simply not worry about it. I've found breads and pizzas are excellent cooked in cast iron, lacking a brick oven. A couple of points you may find interesting: First, in view of your carpal tunnel condition, I wonder if you've tried using HEAVY aluminum pans, like the saute pans that are generally used in restaurant kitchens. They too will season, in the same way as iron, more or less. You just need to heat/oil it an extra couple of times. One of the frequently mentioned drawbacks is with aluminum's tendency to react to acids by discoloring food or giving it an off flavor. This, of course, is much less noticeable when the pan is properly seasoned. It's probably a good idea to use a wooden or plastic spatula as well, since aluminum is a bit softer than iron and might therefore scratch. Another possibility is with one of my favorite pans: a cheap, soft, not-too-well-tempered low-carbon steel omelette pan. For about $5 you can get, at a restaurant supply house, pans like these in various sizes. They are quite lightweight, easily seasoned, and behave in most respects like their heavier iron counterparts. Because they lack the mass of the iron pans, they do develop "hot spots" when used over extremely high heat for prolonged periods. Probably why they're generally used for omelettes! Gideanus Tacitus Adamantius / P. Troy c/o E. Rhude From: powers at skink.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: "Seasoning" Cast Iron Ware Date: 3 Aug 1996 18:26:50 -0400 Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science >I know cast iron isn't period, but hey, who cares? > >Vicente Coenca, Three Rivers, Calontir Documentation please. "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel" mentions cast iron as being made in a fairly good range of countries during late period time; so I would like to see some documentation---yea or nay---on whether cast iron cookware was/was not available. My copy of "Iron and Brass Implements of the English Home" seems to indicate that cast iron cookware was available---though this is probably not the most authoritative of sources. BTW cast brass/bronze pots were known and probably would have profited by a good THICK layer of seasoning to cut down on metal transfer. wilelm the smith---who wrote TI about that glaring error in their review of "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel" but has not seen a correction yet. From: ateno at panix.com (E. Rhude) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pennsic cooking Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 12:48:27 -0400 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Patsy Dunham <Patsy.R.Dunham at CI.Eugene.OR.US> wrote: > Rowan <rowan at net-link.net> wrote: > >I have had some good luck cooking outdoors with a cast-iron dutch oven, > >which has prepared bread, quiche, fruit cobblers and brownies from the > >campfires over the last couple of years at Pennsic and other events. > > How period is a dutch oven? It's an iron pot with an iron lid you put in the fire. That's pretty low-tech. > > Rowan. > > Modern dutch ovens, however, are CAST iron, and I don't think _that_ is a > primitive technology... While early peoples did cast small objects, > forged iron, and cast larger objects in other metals (bronze, silver, > gold), casting even something the size of a medium-size dutch oven, IN > IRON, would have, I think, required technological advances on the order > of what it took, in late period, to cast cannon. > > I'm sure some metal-worker out there will be able to confirm or refute my > gut reaction? > > Chimene You're right! Cast iron pots might be technically within period, but late period if so. I believe cast iron Dutch ovens fall within this category. We tend to think of pots for food as being heated from beneath, while Dutch ovens are heated, hopefully, from all around. Medieval cooking pots are often heated from the side, or some combination of side and bottom, because they couldn't stand being heated very hot at only one point. Because, you see, they were generally made of earthenware of some type, or beaten brass, copper, or bronze. If you look at various ornamental cauldrons taken from different Iron Age Celtic digs, you'll see that they're made of several pieces, rivetted together like a spangenhelm. Whether or not this holds true for pots actually used for cooking, I can't say, and this is an example of pre-medieval technology, anyway. However, there are enough references in the medieval recipes and elsewhere to suggest that cast iron was not very common, if used at all. Both Kenelm Digby and Gervase Markham, in their brewing recipes, call a kettle or cauldron a "Lead", which leads me to believe the possibility exists that such pots were once made of lead (shudder) and that the name is a reference to the metal from which they were made, or a throwback to that time, anyway. Anyway, unless iron pots were forged or rivetted from pieces, they'd have to be very late period. G. Tacitus Adamantius ? P. Troy c/o E. Rhude From: dickeney at access4.digex.net (Dick Eney) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pennsic cooking Date: 24 Aug 1996 16:24:06 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA E. Rhude <ateno at panix.com> wrote: [snip] > ...there are enough references in >the medieval recipes and elsewhere to suggest that cast iron was not very >common, if used at all. Both Kenelm Digby and Gervase Markham, in their >brewing recipes, call a kettle or cauldron a "Lead", which leads me to >believe the possibility exists that such pots were once made of lead >(shudder) and that the name is a reference to the metal from which they >were made, or a throwback to that time, anyway. If you've ever let a candle burn down in a pewter candlestick, you would know just how fast lead melts under direct heat. (Though Kenelm Digby does refer to a pewter brasier, so perhaps there was a _very_ low-lead pewter.) I doubt that anyone made a kettle or cauldron out of lead -- not twice, anyway! :) Tamar the Gypsy From: Andrew Tye <atye at efn.org> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Brazier Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:21:04 -0800 Organization: Oregon Public Networking On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Chris Bays wrote: > At Lilies last summer, I found a brazier which (silly me), I > decided not to buy. It was a tripod, from which was suspended a pan for > the fire, a grille, and a hook to hang a pot. Of course, now I want to > find one, and can't. If anyone knows who may carry a similar thing, or of > someone who makes them, please let me know. Post here or reply to: > maredudd at pagan.com. Thanks a bunch. > > Lady Maredudd Ivar here, The type of of firepit that you are describing in pretty much endemic in the West Kingdom and to a lesser extent in An Tir due to prohibitions on building ground fires. If you can get access to a copy, T.I. #78, AS XXI, (Spring, 1986), has an article on the design and construction of this firepit. It is by Duke Frederick of Holland who I believe is also the inventor. As to current sources of the pits themselves, I believe that Iron Castle Armory in southern Oregon in making them, (I do not have an address or number for them), and there may be others as well. Ivar Hakonarson Adiantum, An Tir. From: pcrandal at flash.net (P. Crandall Polk) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Cauldrons? Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 22:25:30 GMT noxgas at non1.med.nottingham.ac.uk (Gina Stammers) wrote: >Does anyone know a supplier of sturdy cauldrons that could be used on >an open fire? Especially in the UK, any advice would be gratefully >received. > >Gina Stammers http://lehmans.com/catalog/ Though under construction, they may be able to get you a real catalog. Good luck. -- Crandall Non sum qualie eram From: powers at brain.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Cauldrons? Date: 10 May 1997 15:26:08 -0400 Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science >> Does the authenticity matter? (and if so what time/place?) > >Authenticity isn't essential. We are live roleplayers who dabble in and >are tending towards Dark Age (Saxon/Viking/Romano-British) re-enactment >and if the cost difference isn't massive an period cauldron would be >useful so that it could be used if we do any strict living history >stuff. > >> how large? > >A few gallons. Big enough for a stew for twenty people. > >> (remember that cast iron is a late period item, cast bronze a good >> most of the period item, and beaten bronze/iron for earlier period) > >I'd assume that a cast bronze cauldorn doesn't come cheap. A beaten iron >one would be ideal. A cast iron one is what I'm expecting to end up with. >Dave Barnett so here are my recomendations within certain criteria: For size: 20 people x 1 quart per person--you're out in the weather right? so 5 Gallons or so---large and heavy as cast iron, easier as a constructed version. Non-period---check out the scrapyards, you may be amazed at what is already out there in pretty much the right shape and size and only needing some legs rivited on or a spider constructed for it or more period--just a good strong bail. Give some thought to stainless steel if you can find a proper piece, (a food processing plant near my old digs used to junk globose stainless pieces in a variety of sizes..) Due to easy of care stainless is not a bad choice and as the outside can be left in a "fired" condition it won't look as bad as you may think. For a more period look: find someone making spangen helms and sell them on making a proper constructed kettle. Going all out: find wrought iron sheet and a good smith to hammer one out. Watch out for: metals exposed to un-known chemicals---why I liked the food processing plant cast offs metal primed with lead primer brass/bronzes of unknown composition (lead sneaks in) Advice think about "tinning" the interior of your kettle to stop leaks and provide a food safe barrier, (NOTE pure tin as is used to line copper cookware *NOT* solder!) Beware cracked castiron pots, pots nearly rusted through, and those "improved" as flowerpots by having holed drilled in the bottom. wilelm the smith From: powers at woodstock.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Mustard Colored Fabric (Dye experiments) Date: 8 May 1997 17:18:26 -0400 Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science My messenger having failed in his task has found me on this bridge watching the tide turn and the odd feud victim float by. Being a kind (no remarks as to *what* kind...) person I have "let him go" and will endeavor to deliver the contents myself... Re: the type of pots used to dye in the medieval period <deletia> >BTW, I've never seen it written that iron pots (which dull dyes and >roughen the wool) were what caused peasants to wear dull autumn colors. >IMHO, though, porcelain-coated dye vats would seem 'way more expensive >and unreachable for peasants than iron kettles. That may be why lower >classes dressed dull, while the wealthier wore bright colors. There may >be a TI article in there somewhere. >Regards, Lady Meara al-Isfahani Gracious Lady Meara; perhaps investigation into what was used in period times as dyepots would be a good first step. Although we are conditioned to immediatly think of cast iron as the "old cauldron", cast iron only starts showing up in widespread use in the 1400's. Prior to that most "cast" pots were brass or bronze and so would leach copper, tin and zinc into the dyevat if used. However for large tanks that would not exceed the temperature of boiling water *lead* was usually the material of choice! Built up pots constructed of sheatmetal could be wrought iron or bronze if small but tended more toward bronze for larger ones. (there is also other time-period shifts of usage). None of this covers the use of "pottery" pots which were common and came in a range of sizes--Theophilus mentions one large enough to put a goat in to collect its urine (circa 1120 A.D.). My first guess as to a large dyevat for a professional dyer would be lead followed by bronze. For a small "local" dyer I would probably *guess* pottery followed by bronze. I would think that iron was very un-likely especially for a professional who needed a large vat---even after cast iron became available! Remember that using your cooking pot for dyeing may result in dying! So a peasant may not want to use a very expensive iron pot when a cheaper one may be available. wilelm the smith, married to a spinster who has been teaching spinning for over 20 years and pressed into service on a regular basis to provide dye pots, vats and materials. (we did a traditional indigo tank once that was around 3/5ths my production....) I welcome information to correct any "assumptions" I may have made as this is *not* my primary area of interest! From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei at ki.se> Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:25:06 +0200 (METDST) Subject: Re: Cast iron cookpots (was: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #183) On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, david friedman wrote: > interested. We use it because it is the most period seeming thing we can > readily get, but would be happy to shift to something better. I'm in (approximately) the same position; while the "100% certified period" cookware for my persona (10th c scandinavian) would be iron and soapstone pots, perhaps with some clay, I have to settle for less. More or less readily available are iron plate pots (any competent SCA armourer should be able to manufacture these [1]), but the cost is beyond my present budget (IIRC $75-100/ea). Soapstone would have to be purchased and worked, and are fragile as well. Clay is another option, but they share the fragility with the soapstone, and I do not currently have the skill to manufacture them. I am also uncertain as to what extent they are period. My solution so far has been to use aluminium billy can type pots. These have the advantage that they look fairly much like the original when viewed from the outside (when suitably blackened), and are durable and low cost. But they are a compromise. /UlfR [1] Most examples I have seen have the welds on the inside, thereby making them waterproof. I do not know how the originals were waterproofed, but several methods could have been used[2]. I would very much welcome information on what methods _were_ used in period. [2] Solder, pitch, etc. I do not now if (forge-)welding would have been possible. - -- Par Leijonhufvud par.leijonhufvud at labtek.ki.se From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Cast iron cookpots At 11:25 AM +0200 7/3/97, Par Leijonhufvud wrote: >Soapstone would have to be purchased and worked, and are fragile as well. Soapstone griddles can be purchased; we used to use one at home when I was growing up to cook sourdough pancakes on. Soapstone pots, on the other hand ... . David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei at ki.se> Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 07:32:57 +0200 (METDST) Subject: Re: SC - Re- Cast iron cookpots On 3 Jul 1997, Mark Harris wrote: > Perhaps this is a European term. What is a "billy can" type pot? Are these > stamped or cast out of alluminum? Stamped or spun, thin (perhaps 2mm thick) aluminium pots with a wire "bucket type" handle (so you can hang it over the fire). Look for open fire type backpacking supplies. /UlfR - -- Par Leijonhufvud par.leijonhufvud at labtek.ki.se Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:04:55 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Snails and Salamand Marisa Herzog wrote: > <snip> > To use a salamander, make a recipe's worth of Digby's Savory Toasted Cheese, > or perhaps a Cambridge Burnt Cream. Take your salamander and heat it in the > coals until red hot, or if it is the kind that you fill > <snip> > > [horrified wail!] I hope that a "salamander" as used above is some sort of > cooking iron and not a slow cute little amphibian! > -brid > (a die hard omnivore, who knows where her steak comes from, but is now haunted > by images of charred amphibians) Gotcha!!! A salamander generally looks kinda like a solid disk-shaped branding iron. You heat it and bring it really close to the surface you are trying to brown. The name salamander as a culinary tool has survived as the name of those eye-level broilers you sometimes see in restaurant kitchens. Salamanders as heraldic/mythical beasts are more or less made of fire, hence the imagery. Adamantius Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:56:00 -0700 From: DUNHAM Patricia R <Patricia.R.DUNHAM at ci.eugene.or.us> Subject: SC - wafer irons, where to find Oops, I'm answering the question that wasn't asked! 8-0!! Thought they said WAFER iron, not WAFFLE iron... figured it out when editing down the previous- message-enclosed bit. Answer works anyway. 8-) - - - - - - - - - - - - You can always try big flea markets. I've found two nice, put-it-over-the-burner or camp fire-source Scandinavian style cast-iron wafer irons at our local big-flea-market in the past 5 years. Of course, I'm in the Pacific NW, and there are a number of Scandinavian enclaves up here. (One of the irons has a Scandinavian maker's mark, am not sure about the other. One may actually be more like aluminum??) These are NOT Waffle irons, either. (A wafer iron is a pizzelle iron?, makes a flat, elaborately patterned (like an etching), crisp round (6"?) that's 1/8 inch or less thick. A waffle iron has an internal grid of 1/4 inch square depressions, the campfire ones may come in round or single square shapes.) We saw waffle-irons about 20 times more frequently (at Picadilly) than wafer irons during that 5 year period... The patterns look reasonable, and I've actually used them (at home) over an open-fire heat-source. Have only tried a couple of times, don't have the recipe settled yet. They'd make great ice-cream cones 8-) Patricia R. Dunham - Eugene Public - 100 W 13th Ave - 97401 patricia.r.dunham at ci.eugene.or.us - 541-984-8321 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:25:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU> Subject: Re: SC - Advice -- Tools for crushing stuff (was shortbread help) I am taking to heart the advice to crush the shortbread, but wondering what tools (short of running over it with the car) would be best. This isn't really a narrow question about this particular bit of shortbread, but a broader question about, for example, what types of mortars and pestles are best for what uses (I've seen advertised mortar and pestle sets made out of wood, ceramic, and brass; what works best where?) I'd suggest a modern food processor,with the sharp metal chopping blade. Not a mortar and pestle, unless you feel a great desire to do handwork. When I was in France, some years ago, I saw a period food processor: a very large wheel, studded with blades, that spun and was inserted into a narrow round bottom bowl, and with a feeder chute on the top. It gives me a small justification for using a Cuisinart or whatever when I need to. Tibor Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:56:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU> Subject: Re: SC - Re: #328-31 << I dunno. Like I said, I saw it in a kitchen when I was in Europe, and played with it. No one there could even tell me what it was called: but the sign on the room dated it to period. Tibor >> I don't suppose you could draw it for us?....................hmmmmmm. :-) No. I draw worse than I dance. (:-) It was a large wheel, the size of a rotary whetstone or a small car tire, made of wood. It had metal blades (not particularly sharp) studing it. It was encased in a round wooden box, that opened like a flip top lid for cleaning. The bottom of the box had a chute or hole, with room for a bowl to be placed on the floor underneath. The top had a chute for dropping food onto the wheel. The wheel had a large crank coming out one side. You obviously turned the crank, the wheel would spin with great momentum, and then you'd drop food down the chute on top, and mush would come out the bottom. The whole was about as tall as a short man or average woman. Tibor (6' tall, if you want to discuss short or average height. :-) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:17:05 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Romertopf? >What is a romertopf? > >Marjorie Romertopf is a modern clay cooking pot with a clay cover. It is similar to the cloche, a clay dome placed on a baking stone to serve as a portable oven. This method of baking has been employed since antiquity. There is a photograph of an Athenian cloche excavated from the Agora in Elizabeth David's English Bread and Yeast Cookery. Bear Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 06:58:25 -0600 From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net> Subject: SC - Couple of Questions for Y'all >Subject: Re: SC - Couple of questions for ya'll... > >> The early equivalent to aluminum foil was usually leaves and/or (clayish) >> mud covering. Don't know when it started, but since it's found in many >> cultures worldwide, I suspect it has been independently discovered a >> zillion times. > >I've also baked a ham in rye dough, as per a recipe we were trying to do from >a period source the hostess had. It didn't make much difference in the taste, >so we abandoned the idea as too cumbersome for a feast of any size. Since it >was easy to find I assume it was late period. > >Corwyn There really is no "one period way" to cook individuallly wrapped dishes, though that technique was know and used inperiod. Dough (discarded or not afterwards), leaves, clay, straw or hay (which adds a neat flavor to ham), the item's own skin, dredgings, and paper were all used to coat cooked items and shield it somewhat from excessive drying or scorching in the heat of the fire or oven while cooking. I personally have read referances to all of these things being used. Dough: Apecius, The ham with fig sauce recipe. Straw/hay: Molokhovet's Gift to Young Housewives and other Slavic Sources such as Domostroi and Brad and Salt ( Gift is OOP but large chunks probably date to a period practice). Dredgings: Any Medieval European cookbook such as Taillevant, etc.... Paper: Late period bakery items such as Housewife's Jewel (Dawson) have us putting the small cakes on papers in the oven to dry. I also saw a recipe I cannot recall for papered fish somewhere, and vaguely remember some (Martha Washington or Possibly some other slightly OOP source) directions to shield something on top with paper , a bakery item I seem to recall, possibly from Mrs. McClintock's Receipts for Cookery and Pastrywork (or something remarkably similar), Ed. Isabail MacLeod, Glasgow U. Press, which is the first *published* scottish cook book, tho OOP by a fair margin. Leaves and Clay: Archaeological evidence of excavated household fire pits and trash dumps. So you can see, though I'm a little fuzzy this A.M., that the concept of Aluminium Foil ie: wrapping/covering food prior to cooking or using a substance as a heat barrier while cooking is not a new thing. Foil is a handy substitute, but I believe we should also remember that it does not impart any flavor to the food being cooked (other than a possible aluminium taste), the way hay or leaves or dredgings or dough might do. So when you are substituting for modern ease of preparation, you may well be changing the character of the dish. I am remnded of the recipe I have always meant to try, but never got the chance: Rye or Black bread dough baked in cabbage leaves (which act as a bread pan). Cabbage can get almost sweet, and I imagine would impart a green flavor to the dough. Has anyone tried this? I ran across it in a secondary source while looking for Russian foodstuffs a few years ago. And, when you are gathering leaves for wrapping, remember: Leaves of Three, let them be ;^D! Aoife---waiting for the caffeine to hit the bloodstream Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:41:30 -0000 From: "Yeldham, Caroline S" <csy20688 at GlaxoWellcome.co.uk> Subject: RE: SC - RE: Introduction--Reply, Query ... going bac