table-fountns-msg - 5/15/08 Elaborate tabletop fountains used at 13th and 14th century feasts to distribute liquids such as wine or perfumed waters. NOTE: See also the files: fountains-msg, nefs-msg, utensils-msg, aquamaniles-msg, Handwashing-art, French-Tbl-Srv-art, feast-decor-msg, 14thC-Kitchen-art, beverages-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:22:47 -0500 From: Stefan li Rous Subject: [Sca-cooks] table fountains To: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks I am currently reading "Feast - A History of Grand Eating" by Roy Strong. On page 99-100 in the medieval section he says: "Ironically it [the nef] was not the salt that was destined to be the greatest of all the display pieces but the table fountain. These were not only ches d'oeuvre of the goldsmith's craft but were items of extreme ingenuity, involving the movement of liquids, wine or perfumed waters, which spurted or spouted and whose pressure caused figures to move or bells to jingle. We know that they already existed in the thirteenth century, and they begin turning up in inventories in the fourteenth century." Various examples of these fountains. "The surviving example in the museum at Cleveland (ohio), despite its missing basin and foot, gives some impression of the magnificence of these pieces, whose sole purpose was to amaze." So, anyone near Cleveland seen this? Has anyone created such a fountain for a feast? While it is probably more appropriate for a headtable, it still might be intriguing for a regular table. My first idea would be to use a pump from one of the miniature table fountains that have become popular in the last few years, or maybe even use the correct style of fountain itself as a starting point. I'm not quite sure how to get the auxiliary items to do their movements, but I can see using additional motors or the flowing liquid itself. Does anyone have any ideas on how they would have done one of these fountains in period, since the modern cheat of using small battery driven pumps wasn't available? I can see using a storage resevoir at a higher position, but without recirculating the liquid i imagine the amount of liquid squirting out of the fountain would have to be a tiny stream. Unless they were removed after one course. I can also imagine some problems if the fountain malfunctions and starts squirting red wine about. Stefan -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:00:17 -0700 From: Mark Hendershott Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] table fountains To: Cooks within the SCA The Hesse family exhibition in Portland, Oregon had a couple of these. 17th c if I recall. No explanation of how they worked but you might find some answers by looking for info on them. They were complete. Simon Sinneghe Briaroak, Summits, An Tir Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:14:58 +0200 From: "Ana Valdes" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] table fountains To: "Cooks within the SCA" It must have been based on levels and weights, as Leonardo already used in many of his works as engineer in the Milano court. The "automats" clocks in Prag and Lund, Sweden, were early (13th century) proofs of remarkable engineering. Greeks and Romans used advanced engineering for their weapons of siege. Ana On 10/27/06, Mark Hendershott wrote: > The Hesse family exhibition in Portland, Oregon had a couple of > these. 17th c if I recall. No explanation of how they worked but > you might find some answers by looking for info on them. They were > complete. > > Simon Sinneghe Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:04:38 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] table fountains To: Cooks within the SCA We discussed fountains before on the Subtleties list. Here are some notes from our files-- Morwenna wrote: A few years ago master John McGuire made a swan-shaped cake "wine" (really grape juice) fountain. You can read about it here: http://www.jtdiii.com/Recipes/recipes.html It's the third article down. Baroness Faerisa did one for the Pennsic Subtleties Contest in 2005 She later wrote: I used one of those fountain kits you can get at craft stores like Michaels, bent a wire to the shape I wanted, tied the fountain's hose to it and then covered the hose with a cardboard fish shape (hot glue guns are your friends :-), covered in cardboard scales for added 3-dimensionality, and all spray painted gold. I had originally meant to have it dispense wine, but due to limited time (ie I was doing this the last two nights before leaving for Pennsic) I decided on water instead, since I was having trouble controlling the splash-back factor and didn't want to stain the surrounding tablecloths with a fine mist of wine. Faerisa From material posted previously on SCA Cooks there's also this: For visible evidence of food in history, Prof. Rocke?s class, which numbered fourteen students, visited the Cleveland Museum of Art . Students were shown various depictions of food, artifacts, and containers for food, and they discovered a fourteenth-century French table fountain. The fountain has a hidden pumping mechanism that produces a continuous fountain of wine. ?It is a mechanically ingenious device and a work of art,? Prof. Rocke says. http://www.case.edu/pubs/cwrumag/spring2001/features/foodthought/ index.shtml The interactive feature that showed how it worked is mentioned in the exhibit sections but that appears to have never been part of the website. It was just for the public attending the show. Johnnae Pat wrote: There is a 14th century table fountain at the Cleveland Museum of Art. http://www.clevelandart.org/exhibcef/burgundy/html/1080248.html It does not use a gravity feed reservoir, but I don't know how it does work. Mordonna another post-- Circumstances prevented me from seeing this exhibit in person, but I did buy the catalogue. This fountain appears on page 87 in the 2004 volume titled Art from the Court of Burgundy. From the entry there-- "Originally, the fountain stood in a large catch basin. Water, pumped through a central tube, emerged at the top through a series of nozzles (shaped as animals and drolleries) in jets that forced the rotation of the wheels and rang the tiny bells. The water gradually cascaded from one level to the next through gargoyle heads, only to refill the catch basin for another cycle. The suggestion that such fountains were intended to be used for banqueting tables is not supported by the evidence. Inventories do not refer to these objects as "table" fountains and contemporary minatures of banqueting scenes do not depict such objects. They are generally associated with rose water. It seems more likely that, secondarily to their interest as objects of entertainment, they were intended to serve as room scenters mounted on tripods or small side tables. " S.N.F. There appears to be this 40 plus page article on it. Fliegel, Stephen N. "The Cleveland Table Fountain and Gothic Automata," Cleveland Studies in the History of Art. 2002 v.7. pp. 6-49. That article might be a starting point for more research. Looking up automata as well as fountains might also be helpful. I'll see if I can find some books too. Johnnae Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:42:06 EDT From: SilverR0se at aol.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] table fountains To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org I have recently been seeing items sold as "chocolate fountains" at my local Linens 'n' Things. They are not very fancy but if their pumps were designed to move melted chocolate, I would think they would work for wine or other beverages as well. Maybe they could be gussied up a bit - I'll look next time I'm in there. Renata Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:26:02 -0400 From: "Elise Fleming" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Table Fountains To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" Stefan wrote: > Various examples of these fountains. "The > surviving example in the museum at Cleveland (ohio), despite its > missing basin and foot, gives some impression of the magnificence of > these pieces, whose sole purpose was to amaze." > > So, anyone near Cleveland seen this? Yup! I did and it was fantastic. I watched the computer reconstruction of what it might have looked like in operation. I was surprised to discover that the fountain was much smaller than the photos had led me to believe. Alys Katharine Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 12:13:19 -0500 From: "M+D: Mary and Doug Piero Carey" Subject: [Sca-cooks] table fountains To: sca-cooks-request at lists.ansteorra.org, sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Stefan asked if anyone had seen Cleveland Museum of Art's table fountain. I have, but it has been several years. About all I remember is that it is large, elaborate, & very impressive. The metal was mostly silver in color. I don't recall whether it was actual silver or just silver color. I can't even remember which exhibit it was in. I'll do some digging & see if I bought the catalog (I usually do), but it will be a couple days at least before I can get to it. I wonder if they made a video of the fountain in motion. Sometimes CMA does do that. I'm a member, perhaps the museum library will do a little searching for me. Maria Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 14:01:38 -0500 From: "Elise Fleming" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Table Fountains To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" Maria wrote: > Stefan asked if anyone had seen Cleveland Museum of Art's table > fountain. > > I have, but it has been several years. About all I remember is that > it is large, elaborate, & very impressive. As I wrote earlier, I don't recall that it was "large" although our expectations may have been different. To me, it was smaller than I had imagined from the pictures of it (http://www.clevelandart.org/ educef/arts21/html/5452490.html). The web site doesn't seem to give any dimensions. I was impressed with its intricacy and delicacy. Alys Katharine Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:20:04 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: [Sca-cooks] Table Fountains-- Rival To: Cooks within the SCA Back in October we discussed table fountains and on 10/27 Renata mentioned "I have recently been seeing items sold as "chocolate fountains" at my local Linens 'n' Things. They are not very fancy but if their pumps were designed to move melted chocolate, I would think they would work for wine or other beverages as well. Maybe they could be gussied up a bit - I'll look next time I'm in there." It turns out that RIVAL now has a 14 pc beverage fountain for the holidays. http://www.lnt.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2364644 Good picture at Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Rival-Beverage-Fountain-cups-Ladle/dp/B000JWDWDG Prices vary widely and I am wondering if after the holidays, the price will drop. Johnnae From: Karen Date: July 8, 2007 12:52:05 PM CDT To: StefanliRous at austin.rr.com Subject: Re: Artssciences Digest, Vol 50, Issue 1 > In the FOOD-UTENSILS section: > table-fountns-msg Elaborate tabletop fountains used to > distribute wine or perfumed waters. Hi -- apologies for the brevity of this reply (am feeding the baby with one hand, typing with the other) -- but you could add a link in this page to http://www.larsdatter.com/tablefountains.htm -- my linkspage on this subject -- your readers might find 'em interesting. :-) Karen Edited by Mark S. Harris table-fountns-msg Page 6 of 6