ovens-msg - 1/29/08 Medieval ovens and SCA camp ovens. NOTE: See also the files: utensils-msg, bread-msg, breadmaking-msg, brd-mk-sour-msg, iron-pot-care-msg, no-fire-cook-msg, p-kitchens-msg, camp-ovens-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: haslock at fiacha.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Brick Oven Design Date: 21 Sep 1994 20:39:46 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Greetings from Fiacha, All of the brick ovens that I am acquainted with have a single chamber. Since the goal is to get the bricks hot enough to cook by and since bricks are a really poor conductor of heat, it seems grossly inefficient to use a separate fire box and wait for the heat to percolate through the walls of the fire box. Trying to use the hot air and smoke generated by the fire might be possible but it would not work the same as a brick oven such as I have used. In discussing improvements to the brick oven we have, we have considered redesigning the inside to make better use of the flames, and cause the smoke to go up the chimney instead of out of the door. I believe that a separate firebox would make sense when iron walls are practical. I would be interested in pointers to plans for period ovens and indications of when ovens with separate fireboxes came into use. Fiacha From: alisounf at aol.com (AlisounF) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Brick Oven Design Date: 21 Sep 1994 17:15:03 -0400 (Neil Perkins(980-9892" <jackalope!neil at zazen.attmail.com>, writes: >I would have assumed that there would be two cavities - one to bake in, >and one for the baking. Not so? The design requires quite rudimentary >brick-laying skills. I don't know when the idea of a separate firebox and bake area was invented, but even in the 19th. century in rural Massachusetts bread might still be baked in a beehive oven with only one chamber. Alisoun Fortescue of Maplehurst who is known to say that you cannot light a candle in the wind. From: Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Brick Oven Design Date: Sat, 24 Sep 1994 21:37:00 -0800 Al> From: alisounf at aol.com (AlisounF) Al> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Al> In article <9409211855.AA00503 at jackalope.toontown>, at mc.lcs.mit.EDU Al> (Neil Perkins(980-9892" <jackalope!neil at zazen.attmail.com>, writes: >I would have assumed that there would be two cavities - one to bake in, >and one for the baking. Not so? The design requires quite rudimentary >brick-laying skills. Al> I don't know when the idea of a separate firebox and bake area was Al> invented, but even in the 19th. century in rural Massachusetts bread Al> might still be baked in a beehive oven with only one chamber. True. Near here, we have a reconstructed 19thc Hudson's Bay trading post, Fort Vancouver. Among the things they have rebuilt so far is the bakery. It has two ovens, both single-chamber, so far as baking goes. (There -is- a chamber under it, but that's just used to pre-season firewood...) A fire is built in the upper chamber, raked out, and the bread put in. Just as has been done for practically ever... From: haslock at fiacha.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Request:medieval feast Date: 21 Sep 1994 00:30:05 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Greetings from Fiacha, Stephen Bloch raises some interesting points about trenchers that caused me to stop and think/speculate for a moment. Giving every feaster a trencher is a lot of bread. Doing it every day is one hell of a lot of bread. Bread tins are not a medieval artifact as far as I know (but I could have missed them). Without bread tins, bread comes out of the oven in a slump shape. You can't make rectangular bread because it will change shape in the oven. Thus I would expect round or oval loaves. Really tall loaves aren't going to work very well. The further the middle is from the heat, the longer it is going to take to bake. Efficient use of the oven is going to require vaguely flat bread for trenchers. This means that really efficient use of the oven should have been to bake pita bread on steroids. A thick crust would be much more effective at trapping juices and sauces. Experience with a brick oven is relevant here. I have turned out breads upto two inches thick. However, they only worked when the oven was relatively cool. Trying it with the oven hot resulted in burnt crusts or uncooked middles. Thin breads can be cooked in the hot oven. The point to remember is that with a brick oven there is no thermostat and you cannot use the oven while you are reheating it. Thus, as the temperature goes down, the cooking time increases. If you need to cook a lot of something, you want to cook it in a hot oven so you can cycle lots of items through before reheating. This means that flat bread for trenchers makes a lot of sense. Fiacha Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) Subject: Re: Looking for oven sources Organization: University of Chicago Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 05:22:34 GMT Tandoori cooking is, I believe, traditionally done in a clay oven, and I believe it is similar to the Tanur used in medieval Arabic cooking. A possibility I have considered but not followed up is to find out where Indian restaurants get their Tanurs from. If you have the space, you then bring your tanur with you, bury it part way (I think), build a fire inside, rake out the coals, put in the bread, ... . David/Cariadoc From: caradoc at enet.net (John Groseclose) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Looking for oven sources Date: 29 Sep 1994 21:02:59 GMT sward02 at bigcat.missouri.EDU (Shannon R. Ward) wrote: > In amongst the talk of making period ovens, etc. did anyone ever list > sources we can look at if we are interested in making one. I don't think > I can survive another Lilies War without hot, fresh bread! > > Tatiana Dieugarde > Shire of Standing Stones > Kingdom of Calontir In the excavations at Pompeii, they dug up a stove/oven/heating device remarkably similar to the "shepherd's box stove" I've seen at a lot of Boy Scout camps... It's essentially a longish metal box with a stovepipe at one end, two doors (one to put wood in, and one above that for baking. The top surface of the box (behind the top of the "oven" box) is used as a griddle surface. The one excavated at Pompeii also had a partitioned area with a spigot, apparently used for heating liquids. --------- ! ! Front View: ! ! ! ! -------------------------------------- ! ! ! ------------------------------ ! ! ! ! ! ! ! Oven door ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ------------------------------ ! ! ! ! ------------------------------ ! ! ! Firebox door ! ! ! ------------------------------ ! -------------------------------------- Side View: (stovepipe omitted): Griddle here ---- ---------------------------------------------------------- ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! Baking "oven" ! ! ! ! ! Coals shoved back here ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ---------------------------------! ! ! ! Wood (or charcoal) here ! ! ! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In the Pompeii artifact, the right side of the "oven" area was partitioned off with a spigot hanging out the side. The entire object had brackets at the corners, apparently for legs for the stove. Now, if I could just find the damn book I read about this in... Maybe it was a National Geographic. -- John D. Groseclose <caradoc at enet.net> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Ice at Pennsic (How much? I used none.) From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 95 12:22:06 EDT glenn at access1.digex.net (D. Glenn Arthur Jr.) writes: > Right now I'm more interested in period (or at least low-tech, > DIY) ovens I can build at -- or _easily_ transport to -- Pennsic. > This has to have been covered in a _Compleat_Anachronist_ or > something, no? But whether period/perioid or modern, being able > to oven-cook at Pennsic can only add to my culinary repertoire. > D. Glenn Arthur Jr., glenn at access.digex.com Respected friend: The premier issue of _Recreating History_ magazine contains an article describing construction and use of five different outdoor ovens. (I wrote it.) Contact Polsons at sirius.com for info. If you get it, do tell me what you did- I _love_ that part! Yours in service to the Society- (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F. Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA Una Wicca (That Pict) From: brettwi at ix.netcom.com(Brett Williams) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping Date: 1 May 1996 17:13:52 GMT parkerd at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Diana Parker) writes: >Elizabeth Estep <CXYB76A at prodigy.com> wrote: >>If anyone would like to share any experiences, resources, etc. on >>period style ovens or bread making, please post them here, or e-mail to the address below. I'll try and share anything I learn with any >>other interested parties. > >Oh Yes Please. > >Tabitha >---------------------------------------------- >Diana Parker parkerd at mcmaster.ca >Security Services CUC - 201 >McMaster University (905) 525-9140 (x24282) The Regia Anglorum web site has an article on building one's own kiln-type oven in its copious pages. The address is: http://www.ftech.net/~regia/ On the other hand, since I somehow surmise from all the reading I've done on going to Pennsic that the Coopers might frown on folk building a permanent oven on their land, why not try burying one of those Romertopf type clay pans (with a lid) with bread in the coals and ashes of a fire? Supposedly one can make bread with a good crust in one of those, though I've never tried it. The King Arthur's Flour Baker's Catalog carries 'em, as does most higher end baked goods/cookery shops. ciorstan From: jlee at puc.edu (Thrystan Wickliegh) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping Date: Thu, 02 May 96 05:37:03 GMT Organization: Pacific Union College At the West Kingdom Collegium a couple of weeks ago there was a demonstration of a bread oven. It was made by taking red clay bricks, about 90 of them if I recall correctly, and forming them into an oven shape using normal mud as a mortar. You first make a base of bricks layed on their long thin edge, unfortunately I don't remember how many were in the base. Then you build up a wall around three sides of the base and dome it over towards the top. the structure will resemble a cylinder cut in half lengthwise and lain on the cut side. An important part of building it was that when you get the walls starting to dome over you need to place two bricks perpindicular to the walls at the front of the oven, i.e. the open side. These bricks can then have weights, extra bricks for instance, placed on them to ballance the wieght of the bricks being domed over. Once you get to the point were a brick turned sideways will cover the opening at the top then place the last layer of bricks perpendicular to the side walls. Note the bricks should be placed so that they have their length going the same direction as the wall and their breadth, i.e. the next larget dimension, going away from the oven chamber. The idea is to get as much thermal mass as possible. I realize that this may not be very clear, if you would like I could try to draw a picture of it and mail it to you, though I am not a very good artist. The best way to do it would be to get some bricks and try it at home and then tweak it till it works. To fire the oven remove a brick from the roof at the back of the oven, at the collegium we made a sort of chimney out of a couple of extra bricks. And then place your wood inside and build your fire. If you built the oven so that the door was facing the prevailing direction of wind you will get a nice draw through the oven even without a chimney. Once the fire in the oven is going you will get some good flames coming out of the chimney due to the excess gases burning in the now abundant oxygen. If you build the oven right it should be possible to cook over the chimney while firing the oven. After the oven has fired for about an hour it should be ready to bake in. Though you should probably experiment with it at home. Rake the fire out of the oven and cover the hole in the roof. Then slide the bread in the oven and place the bricks you saved for the door, you did remember to do this right:), in front of the door. The bread should bake in about the same amount of time as in an oven at home, though you should check it about half way through and then again towards the end. I was told that you get a feel for how long it should take to cook. Once it's done pull it out and cut off the bottom layer, since it has lots of ash and mud on it, and eat. I hope this helps. Thrystan Wickliegh P.S. I wonder if anyone knows how "period" it would be to cook on the chimney of such an oven. I would think that it would be great to fire it up in the morning, cook breakfast over the chimney and then when breakfast is done slide the bread in for lunch. From: Gartner Michael <ges95kll at studserv.uni-leipzig.de> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 11:26:35 +0200 Organization: Uni Leipzig On 30 Apr 1996, Elizabeth Estep wrote: > I know that a number of people have done period bread baking at Pennsic > and other camping events. I haven't, but would like to try it some year. > However, I'd also love to pick the minds of those of you who have already > done it, and learn from your mistakes, so that I can make my own new ones. > > ELIZABETH ESTEP CXYB76A at prodigy.com > ska Angharad ferch Tangwystl apropo, I have never baked bread at war, but I have seen something here in Germany that is very interesting. At this time of the year there are many Market days, most of them being medieval in theme. There is no one organization in charge, rather the majority are hosted by individual cities, especially those with very old Market privelidges. For instance, here in Leipzig they just celebrated their 500 anniversary of Trade fair privledge, granted by Max.I, and had a large Market at the original Marktplatz(Marketplace). There were many handworkers there, including food sellers. One person had brought with him a small stone oven and was baking flat bread and rolls the whole day. Other people would come and use the oven from time to time. I asked him about this and he said that his was the village oven open to public use, a very common practice. In fact since this time I have seen many small villages where the old water mills also have community ovens. I thought it would be interesting to see at an event, a public oven for all to bake their bread fresh daily, Nicht wahr? Duncan Brock, O.L. Michael H. Gartner Universitaet Leipzig, Deutschland From: jlee at puc.edu (Joe Lee) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping Date: Mon, 06 May 96 16:41:04 GMT Organization: Pacific Union College kimiv at ix.netcom.com(Kimberly A. Ingram) wrote: >I saw one of the conical brick ovens being built in a camp at Pennsic >once but when i suggested a similar enterprize to my household, several >people insisted fire brick must be used as opposed to red clay bricks >or run the risk of exploding bricks and this would be cost prohibitive. >Is this the case? > >Yours, Aralyn Thorgrimsdottir >m.k.a. Kim Ingram-Veillette at kimiv at ix.netcom.com > >Hoping to be savoring some of Tabby's breads this Pennsic! Well the oven I saw was made out of the red clay bricks and it didn't explode. While there may be a worry about the bricks exploding if they got too hot, the oven I saw still had a couple of places in it where there was slightly damp, i.e. still dark, mud between the bricks when we broke it apart the next day. And this was after four firings. I also heard someone, I unfortunately do not remember who, mention that they were at an event similar to a ren faire where there was a large oven built on site. The method used to fire it was that when the soot on the ceiling of the oven turned white it was hot enough, then the fire was cleaned out and the floor was mopped lightly to remove the ashes and hte door was closed. When the outside of the oven became too hot to comfortably touch, sometime later as I understood it, the oven was ready for baking. At any rate the bricks do not ever become hot enough to explode. Thrystan Wickliegh From: Pat McGregor <patriciaX_O_McGregor at ccm.fm.intel.com> From: priest at vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping Date: 7 May 1996 11:27:55 GMT Organization: Vassar College Greeting from Thora Sharptooth! Tabitha (parkerd at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA) wrote: > I'm the one who insisted that fire brick be used. Five years >later I'm _still_ picking brick pieces out of my yard from when the >tenants tried to line their firepit with building bricks. Since the >pieces are up to 5-6 feet away from the fire pit site, (and in some cases >buried 2-3") - I'm worried about what kind of explosive force could >develop. (perhaps from wet regular bricks heating to steam? - I don't >know why it would explode - merely that I've got empirical evidence that >they did) Last year we made a hemispherical, Viking-style unvented brick and mud oven in our Pennsic camp. We considered using fire brick for the entire production but, save for the floor of the oven, went with regular on the recommendation of the brick merchant in town. We used the oven for a week and a half, regularly, and didn't have any problem with exploding or broken bricks--not even on the last day, when we had the thing fired to well over 700 degrees for several hours. ************************************************************************* Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth priest at vassar.edu Frostahlid, Austrrik Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or ************************************************************************* From: priest at vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping Date: 10 May 1996 11:41:22 GMT Organization: Vassar College Greeting from Thora Sharptooth! Tabitha (parkerd at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA) asked: >>Last year we made a hemispherical, Viking-style unvented brick and mud oven >>in our Pennsic camp. We considered using fire brick for the entire >>production but, save for the floor of the oven, went with regular on the >>recommendation of the brick merchant in town. We used the oven for a week >>and a half, regularly, and didn't have any problem with exploding or broken >>bricks--not even on the last day, when we had the thing fired to well over >>700 degrees for several hours. > >How many bricks? About 50, plus the fire bricks. >How long did it take to build? Most of a day for 2.5 people, counting acquisitions. We kept all the ingredients (except the mud), and it will probably take less than half a day in future. >Any difficuty getting permissions from the Coopers/Pennsic Building >Inspection? We closely consulted the fire safety advocate, Durr ish Jabal, and Dave Cooper about several issues such as location, proper acquisition of mud, and keeping the oven up above the ground (to keep the local root system from possible ignition). They were both very cooperative and supportive--but then again we have a history of paying close mind to fire and safety regulations in our encampment. >Are you planning on making one again this year? >Will you rent space? :) No, I'm planning to have our first child on or about August 1. Needless to say, we will not be at Pennsic this year! ;> However, a lady from our shire wants to set up the oven in the shire encampment (Frosted Hills), so we hope the oven will make an appearance this year. *************************************************************************** Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth priest at vassar.edu Frostahlid, Austrrik Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or *************************************************************************** From: IVANOR at delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Period Bread Ovens When Camping Date: 8 May 1996 00:19:08 GMT Quoting parkerd from a message in rec.org.sca > I'm the one who insisted that fire brick be used. Five years >later I'm _still_ picking brick pieces out of my yard from when the >tenants tried to line their firepit with building bricks. Since the This sounds as if the bricks were so placed that they could not lose heat on the side away from the fire, and as if the fire was not a temporary thing until the oven was hot enough, but was cooked over, and kept burning within the fire pit. In such a situation the bricks would become much hotter than a bread oven ever would, much closer to a kiln (which had BETTER be made of fire bricks). I think this is why that firepit exploded. Any comment from physics majors? Carolyn Boselli ivanor at delphi.com Host of CF35..SCAdians on Delphi ivanor at localnet.com From: keiths at CyberGate.COM (Keith Smith) Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Date: 26 Jun 1996 14:13:17 GMT Pat McGregor (patriciaX_O_McGregor at ccm.fm.intel.com) wrote: : Kris Dow wrote: : > question is: Does anyone have any information/know of good sources for : > information on building a small (hopefully not overly permanent :) bread : > oven outdoors? I've just recently discovered the fun of bread-baking, Check out Bernard Clayton's new and enlarged edition of his "The Complete Book of Breads." His original book (1973) mentioned a temporary outdoor oven based on a Sunset magazine design; his latest book shows how to build it. The Sunset magazine original is found in an article published August 1971. I also picked up a Sunset softcover book at a library sale published about 20 years ago that had all kinds of outdoor ovens (most of them 50-ish looking), but which did include a circular (alas, permanent) Chinese-style brick oven suitable for indirect cooking of duck and pork. Wish I had room to build and outdoor oven. Good luck. Cheers, kds From: Vandy Simpson <vsimpson at headwaters.com> Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Brick bread oven? Date: 7 Jul 1996 13:54:36 GMT Organization: Bell Global Solutions May I also suggest the book "The Forgotten Art of Building and Using a Brick Bake Oven" by Richard M.Bacon, published by Yankee, Inc. ISBN 0-911658-76-9. And from personal experience I recommend a stone and turf oven.It requires a lot less by way of materials and engineering skills, and seems to work quite nicely.I have one in my back yard, and we built another up at an annual campsite near North Bay. We tried a stone and clay oven, but found we hadn't fired the structure hot enough to fuse the clay to survive the depredations of an Ontario winter.The turf version doesn't mind rain and snow. Vandy Simpson, Hamlet of Wareham, Ontario, Canada From: dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Camp Bread, In period Date: 2 Oct 1996 21:52:46 -0400 Organization: Panix TJorDan001 <tjordan001 at aol.com> wrote: >Later in the book (during the description of Edward >III's Autumn Expedition of 1359) he states "You may like to know that on >this campaign the great English lords and men of substance took with them >tents of various sizes, mills for grinding corn, *ovens for baking*, >forges for shoeing the horses and all other necessities." He goes on to >say that these were carried in eight thousand wagons (each drawn by four >rounceys) > Again, this is probably noteworthy for its' novelty, but I'd like to >know what kind of ovens they had in period that could be loaded on a cart. Manuscript illustrations and woodcuts show people using "beehive" ovens (like the clay ovens that some Scadians use at Pennsic) mounted on two-wheeled carts. The only citation that I have at hand right now is a fifteenth-century woodcut on page 24 of _Medieval Life Illustrations_ (Carol Belanger Grafton, ed.), the latest in the Dover Pictorial Archive Series. Bon appetit, D.Peters From: Pat McGregor <patmcg at innercite.com> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Camp Bread, In period Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 12:30:30 -0700 Organization: Lloyd Internetworking Greetings from siobhan medbh! On 2 Oct 1996, Ruffina wrote: > Manuscript illustrations and woodcuts show people using "beehive" ovens > (like the clay ovens that some Scadians use at Pennsic) mounted on > two-wheeled carts. > > The only citation that I have at hand right now is a fifteenth-century > woodcut on page 24 of _Medieval Life Illustrations_ (Carol Belanger > Grafton, ed.), the latest in the Dover Pictorial Archive Series. > And, as a point of experience, Edward le Carveur (edwoodguy at aol.com) and Wulfric of Creghill (not sure of spelling, but it is madbaker at netcom.com) have several times in the last year taken bricks in their carts to events, created ovens on site, baked in them sucessfully, and then removed bricks (and mud to hold them together) away again in their vehicles. We were even prepared to use these at 30 year but the ground conditions were unsuitable, alas. siobhan ====================================================== Siobhan Medhbh O'Roarke / Pat McGregor/ siobhan at lloyd.com House Northmark, Mountain's Gate, Cynagua, The West http://www.lloyd.com/~patmcg/sca.index.html From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU> Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Building ovens Is there anyone out there who has built an oven at something like Pennsic? My husband and our friends would like to build one in the first week so that we can experiment with some baking. Years ago, The Sated Tyger Inn used to build a brick and clay oven, and cook all their food in it. The last time that I know of when they did so was Pennsic 14.... One of the owners was Old Marian, who may be reached at marian at world.std.com Last year, my friend Mistress Caterina built a small oven (using a very large inverted flower pot coated with mud, and with a small door cut in it) quite successfully to bake at the war. The line for ruttzige cake was long, at times. She even taught a class in her encampment. You might reach her at akatlas at cs.bu.edu Tibor From: "Martin G. Diehl" <mdiehl at nac.net> Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 14:59:07 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - Building ovens Erin Kenny wrote: > Is there anyone out there who has built an oven at something like > Pennsic? My husband and our friends would like to build one in the > first week so that we can experiment with some baking. > > Claricia Nyetgale I have thought about this, but not yet tested the design. My thoughts go as follows. 1. Size: What is the size of the largest item to be cooked? Round up to the next larger 4" in both the side to side and front to back dimensions. 2. Materials: A. 2 pieces of flagstone whose dimensions are at least 1 foot larger than both of the dimensions determined by step 1 B. Fire brick -- this is a refractory material used to line boilers and fireplaces. In order to determine the number to buy, you need, first get the sum of the sides of the rectangle needed by step 1. Divide that length by 8" and round up to the next integer. That is the number of bricks per course (1 layer of bricks). Multiply that number by the height of the oven and divide by 2. You will also need enough bricks to cover the base of the oven; to get that count, use the outside dimensions of the oven to compute the area (side to side width times front to back depth) divide by 32 and round up to the next integer. C. Heavy insulated gloves D. Fireplace shovel 3. Construction: A. Clear and level and area larger than the larger piece of flagstone. The outside of the oven should get very hot. Think of fire safety and children when planning your campsite, cooking area and oven. B. Lay out one layer of bricks with the 4" by 8" face showing (not on edge) in an ashlar pattern on one of the pieces of flagstone. (An ashlar pattern is what you usually see on the face of a brickwork wall. Do not leave any gaps. C. Build up the three of the sides in another ashlar pattern to the height needed. Arrange the pattern so that at the corners, the overlap changes at each course. This improves stability. The open side is to provide access to the cooking area. It is possible to create a place to hang a cooking grille by laying some bricks at right angles to the wall. A more detailed explanation will have to wait until I can test this and draw some diagrams. This might also increase the interior size and, correspondingly, the brick count. Aside from the open face, do not leave any gaps. 4. Heating: Load the cooking area with firewood or charcoal. Light fuel and stack the remaining bricks to close the opening. In order to allow air to enter, you must omit one brick from the first course. Finally, cover the top with the second piece of flagstone, but leave an opening to vent the smoke. Allow enough time for the fire to burn down. 5. Cooking: A. While the oven is heating, prepare the food to be cooked B. Use the gloves to remove the last wall you built. C. Clear the ashes. The fire pit is a good place for them and could be used for other cooking. D. Food into oven E. Close up the open face and cap so that there is no airflow. F. Cooking time. That's a tough question -- experiment is my advice. Some additional thoughts: 1. making it larger will allow more fuel and therefore longer cooking time 2. at first, use it items that are not time critical -- bread for example 3. it could also be used as a barbecue pit if the grille and oven dimensions are compatible 4. try it some weekend before an event 5. the materials are heavy 6. you might be able to close the top with bricks by cantilevering or creating an arch, but it's less stable and beyond the scope of this note. 7. you might want to use double thick walls to retain additional heat and lengthen cooking time 8. structural stability is a concern 9. meats like pork should not be used until you are sure that it retains enough heat to finish the cooking. 10. could use common (red clay) brick in place of fire brick 11. common brick are 2" by 4" by 8"; firebrick are slightly larger: 2.5" by 4" by 9" -- this difference might affect the size of the pieces of flagstone 12. remember that the ability to effectively cook depends on how hot the oven is and how long it stays hot -- using it in winter or a rainstorm will give different results from using it in summer 13. once you start to use it, you cannot "add" heat except by starting another fire in it As I said, I've been thinking about this. I'm going to have to follow my own advice and build a test oven. But not until after PENNSIC XXVI. Please let me know what you think. I am, Vinchenzio Martinus di Mazza, In Service to the Dream - -- Martin G. Diehl From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Building ovens > Erin Kenny wrote: > > I have thought about this, but not yet tested the design. My > thoughts go as follows. > > ... [detailed construction discussion omitted] Thom Leonard's _The Bread Book_ includes a 17-page chapter on constructing and using a brick oven. He says, among other things, "An oven built of a single thickness of brick will work well, but the extra mass and strength gained by a simply applied 2-inch layer of concrete makes all the difference." Concrete, of course, puts it way OOP, but a layer of clay on the outside of the bricks should serve the same purpose, adding heat-retaining mass. I've wanted to build such a thing for several years now... in fact, I was considering building a mobile one, either on a wheelbarrow (as appears in at least one late medieval woodcut) or on a car trailer. If you're curious about the book, which also discusses baking bread from levain (semisolid sourdough starter), grinding your own flour, and even growing your own wheat, ask your local natural-foods store; it's published by East-West Health Books, copyright 1990, ISBN 0-936184-09-4. mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib Stephen Bloch sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:35:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Roy Wessel <rwessel at ada-solutions.com> Subject: Re: SC - Building ovens A local Italian restaurant (Laudisio's, Willow Creek Shopping Center, Boulder, CO 80304) has a portable pizza/bread oven on a flat bed trailer that they take to wedding receptions, Farmers Market, etc. It is about five feet in diameter, two and a half feet tall, with a base of fire brick and a dome of ordinary brick. They build a fire inside, and after the oven is hot, rake out the coals and put bread dough or uncooked pizza inside. It is quite Period except for using a van to pull it around. Robin Vinehall, __________________________________________________________________ W. Roy Wessel | rwessel at abwam.com | W. Roy Wessel & Associates | | 3545 Arthur Court, #3 | Voice: (303) 444-5004 | Boulder, CO 80304-2031 | | Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:40:20 -0600 From: "Paul Shore" <shore at dcainc.com> Subject: Re: SC - Smoking Questions On 18 Aug 97 at 16:57, Philip & Susan Troy wrote: > Kea ErisDottir wrote: > > I am a blacksmith and technology researcher whose preferred medium is > > fire(surprise) and am the perpetrator of the ongoing Iron furnace research > > at Pennsic. Recently, I have become very interested in how cooking related > > fire works. In the last 3 years, I have built two beehive style ovens at > > the Pennsic War and have also undertaken building one in the back yard, as > > a means to study both their use and maintenance. > > > > Anyone who could send/direct me to good resources for recipes and related > > information(in modern english, please) would be very appreciated. > > Suggest you take a look at "Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book", dated > 1604. Hilary Spurling, ed., copyright Hilary Spurling, 1986, Viking > Penguin, Inc., New York ISBN 0-670-81592-6. This has several recipes for > baked goods which are described in a relative sequence indicating which > items are put into the [hot] oven first, which ones are then baked at a > moderate heat, and which ones as the oven becomes cool again. Of course, > we don't really know that much about how hot the oven needs to get, with > how big a fire and for how long it is heated. I suppose if you follow a > bread recipe and tinker with the process until the bread is fully cooked > but not burned, then you'd have a pretty good idea. Another good book on the use of beehive ovens for baking is "English Bread and Yeast Cookery" by Elizabeth David, New American Edition, 1995, ISBN 0-964-36000-4. (I recently found the soft cover version remaindered for $6, Amazon.com has the hard cover version for $17.50 + shipping). She provides redacted recipes, discusses how hot the oven should be, etc. HL Aeddan ap Trahaearn | Email: shore at dcainc.com Shire of Mooneschadowe Kingdom of Ansteorra Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:54:15 +0200 From: Janine De Villiers <JDeVilliers at juta.co.za> Subject: SC - Re: Smoking Questions Greetings, all, from Meriel Fursa Hand-Seinn wrote: <snip> In the last 3 years, I have built two beehive style ovens at >the Pennsic War and have also undertaken building one in the backyard, as >a means to study both their use and maintenance. There is a fascinating web site for the Regia Anglorum, a living history society in the UK, which has, amongst other wondrous things, an article on building an oven. The URL address is: http://www.ftech.net/~regia/ Meriel of the Marsh Shire Incipient of Adamastor, Cape Town Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:25:45 -0500 (EST) From: Carol Thomas <scbooks at neca.com> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Period Ovens. >Has anyone seen pictures of village ovens? English Bread and Yeast Cookery by Elizabeth David has pictures of ovens at Pompeii that are similar. Also, a 15th c. woodcut of an oven that looks like what you describe. It also has some clay ovens - does Master Hroar need a new project? Lady Carllein Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:58:07 +0000 From: Karen at agent.infodata.com (Harris, Karen) To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Period Ovens. Sarah in An Tir wrote: > Has anyone seen pictures of village ovens? The way that they have been > disscribed to me is about 6-7ft tall and slightly conical. They have an > place forthe fire in the lower half and the oven section above. The smoke > goes around the oven section and out a chimney. Some frineds of mine and > I are thinking about making one. You may want to check out http://www.ftech.net/~regia/ovens.htm -- it's a webpage at Regia Anglorum with information on a large oven they had built. Karen Larsdatter Barony of Ponte Alto, Atlantia Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:16:41 From: Sheron Buchele/Curtis Rowland <foxryde at verinet.com> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Period Ovens. This fall I participated in a class at a local CSA where we built a wood fired bread oven. It was very interesting and the whole time I kept thinking about the plotting that Mistress Meriel and Master Brendan of Calontir did about making a bread oven on the Lilies site. The teacher, Alan Scott, built Laurel (of Laurel's Kitchen and Bread cookbooks) her first oven. He has a web site where he talks about wood fired ovens. Alan views bread ovens as folk art, so the process was very primative and felt very medieval! I can't find the address of the web site, but search on "Alan Scott" and "Ovencrafters", I think that is the name of the group. If anybody wants to get wild and crazy and build an oven at the Lilies site, I'd be happy to help! Baroness Leonora Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 07:21:16 -0500 From: margali <margali at 99main.com> Subject: Re: Unit alert! (was: SC - Long-Period food, bread, etc.) > Wait a minute? Do I understand that you do *puff pastry* at camping > events? > > I can do it with my eyes closed with a frig, but how in heaven's name do > you make puff pastry outside, in the summer, with nothing more, I assume, > than an ice chest????? And how do you bake it without a hot, fast > electric or gas oven????? > > Julleran, mind-boggled over the picture of making puff pastry at Pennsic > (say that three times fast!) why, yes i have. you work it at night when it is relatively cool, you put the slab of marble in the ice chest for the day wrapped in plastic to keep it dry. the resting period works just as well in the ice chest as long as you keep the dough dry. as for baking it, i have a mondo stainless steel bowl about 30" diameter, and a dutch oven. bury the dutch oven in the coals, put the lid on, heap coals on top to preheat. dig it out, put in the tin can ring to make a support for a pie tin, place the pastry tidbit in the pie tin, place on ring, put the oven lid back on, rebury and cover the area with the stainless steel bowl. it helps if you practice with the pie tin and an oven thermometer to get a ballpark on the temp a few times to help out with the timing. This summer I hope to have a brick beehive oven heated from below with the floor of the oven being boiler plate, have dogrobbing lord working on it right now. margali and ny favorite breakfast at a camping event is crepes benedict- instead of on a muffin, wrap scrambled eggs, bacon crumbles in a crepe, top with hollandaise and more crumbled bacon. yummy. Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 10:27:57 -0500 From: margali <margali at 99main.com> Subject: Re: SC - Pucks Glen, off topic the mennonite community on north carolina has a wonderful hearth in their main kitchen you shoul see- a giant hood over about a 12-14 foot wide by 6 foot deep area, along the back wall is a basic hearth, along the left is a 2 hole kettle rest, and along the right is a 5' dia beehive baking/roasting oven, i have been trying to get my lord to put one in the back yard for years! next time i have the time, and the wherewithall to visit the winston-salem area, i want to go back, take pictures and blueprint it. i know it dates to the early 1700s, but it cant be that different as i have a photo from el moro in PR that has a similar hearth arrangement of hood over hearth, but not the kettle rests that dates to the 1500s. you could make a pole shed with the mennonite hearth at one end, a regular hearth at the other and half walls along the long sides as sort of a freeform outdoor small feast hall for 50, 60 people using timber cut during clearing the land as a modular start for an enchanted ground sort of area. margali Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:06:08 EST From: Bronwynmgn <Bronwynmgn at aol.com> Subject: Re: SC - camp ovens I bookmarked this site a while ago but haven't gotten around to checking it out yet. If I recall correctly, the site belongs to one of the more authenticity minded English living history groups (Regia Anglorum) and is based on experience with building and using period ovens. http://www.ftech.net/~regia/ Brangwayna Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:00:53 -0500 From: David Friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - camp ovens I know of at least two types of period ovens, and (when I get back home) can probably find pictures for one of them. 1. Islamic. The Tanur (same word from which we get modern Indian "Tandoori"). Think of a large clay vessel, perhaps partly buried in the ground. Heat with a fire inside, then replace fire with food. 2. Standard medieval oven. Roughly speaking a clay beehive, possibly with bricks as the underlying structure. Again, you heat it by making a fire inside, sweep out the fire, put in the food. A number of people I know have made versions of this for SCA purposes--Marion of Edwinstowe, in the long gone days, ran a medieval cookshop (the Sated Tyger) at Pennsic, using two such ovens as well as fires. Her only modern equipment consisted of (concealed) refrigerators. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:00:44 -0500 (EST) From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu> Subject: Re: SC - camp ovens Phlip gave directions for building a brick oven. This is something I've been fantasizing about for several years. I still haven't done it, but here are two books with detailed directions: Tom Jaine, _Building a Wood-Fired Oven for bread and pizza_, Prospect Books 1996, ISBN 090732570X Thom Leonard, _The Bread Book: a natural, whole-grain seed-to-loaf approach to real bread_, East-West Health Books 1990, ISBN 0-936184-09-4 The latter book, BTW, also discusses how to grind your own flour and grow your own grain in the back yard. mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib Stephen Bloch sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:03:56 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Bread If you have the towing capacity, why not build your oven on a trailer? That way you don't have to worry about setting it up and tearing it down every event. Mobile baking ovens were in use in Europe in the late medieval period and probably in use earlier. If you want to see a painting of one, browse the following URL. http://www.opennet.de/brotmuseum-ulm/english.html Bear Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:43:47 -0700 From: Librarian <betpulib at ptd.net> Subject: SC - Beehive Oven Hallo folks! as promised, the pics of the beehive are up and online, along with a description. Find them through my home page at: http://members.tripod.com/~AoifeFinn/index.html or go straight to the oven atricle at http://members.tripod.com/~AoifeFinn/oven.html Enjoy! These pics, by the way, were taken on a digital camera. I have more for later addition on regular 35 mm film, which show the end of the process. Aoife Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 13:36:27 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - Baking temp vjarmstrong at aristotle.net writes: << The practice of starting out with a high temp and then reducing it is a modern one I learned from my mother, but I thought it might simulate baking in a wood fired oven where the temp would decrease a bit over the cooking time. >> I wonder how your observation that starting a baking project at a higher temp and lowering it is a modern one? Especially since you mention in the next sentence that it simulates a 'wood' fired oven? What you have described is a "modern' adaptation of a very ancient cooking' 'technique. When ovens were heated with wood, peat, charcoal, coal or dung to the correct temperature during the MA they were extremely hot at the beginning of the baking process and lost their heat as the baking progressed. Adjusting the oven temp from high to lower is a perfect example of a 'holdover' practice of the MA. being preserved and adapted to the kitchens of the Current Middle Ages. :-). Ras Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 14:47:09 -0400 From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Baking temp LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > What you have described is a "modern' adaptation of a very ancient cooking' > 'technique. When ovens were heated with wood, peat, charcoal, coal or dung to > the correct temperature during the MA they were extremely hot at the beginning > of the baking process and lost their heat as the baking progressed. Adjusting > the oven temp from high to lower is a perfect example of a 'holdover' practice > of the MA. being preserved and adapted to the kitchens of the Current Middle > Ages. :-). I'll go with that. As a bit of additional evidence, take a look at some of the Elizabethan sources that include baking receipts: Elinor Fettiplace comes to mind. Almost all of her baking receipts instruct the baker to put the pies in after the manchets have been drawn, and the biskets after the pies, etc. Taking all the receipts together it's possible to determine a sort of pecking order for different baked goods, based on a slowly decreasing oven temperature. For long-cooking items, like large pies, the oven temperature would decrease over the sometimes several hours the pie is in the oven, while a modern baker might well start in at a high temperature to get a good brown crust and then reduce the temperature for the balance of the cooking. Adamantius Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:28:41 -0700 From: "Balldrich BallBarian BoulderBain" <msca at c2i2.com> Subject: Re: SC - Aoife's Homepgae-OT-OOP > Where do you get the stones for the oven? I live in South Florida in the > USA (the tropics) and we have loose fieldstone. Also can it be broken down > for moving? > > Andy In south Florida use that lime shell stone that is all over the place, just start your fire low and let the stone heat and dry slowly. That goes for almost any stone that is in damp conditions . . . once dry you can crank up the heat and get a slow hot oven with even heat and no exploding rocks (from steam). Another idea that I have tried here is to find a flagstone construction outfit and ask for all the loose bits that are not good for making walkways, sandstone and shale are both good for ovens. Just pile into a larger than you think you need oven shape and cover the outside with sod, dirt, whatever to seal in and keep in the heat. No need to cement the stones together so when its time to remove ( after it cools off) it just knock it down. Enjoy Balldrich Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:31:47 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Outdoor Ovens > Check out the last link on my website > (http://members.tripod.com/~AoifeFinn/index.html), for the Beehive Oven I certainly will. I have a trailer body on which I am planning to build a field oven, creating a more modern version of a field oven I have seen depicted in a 15th Century painting. I'm thinking of plastering the exterior (like a horno) to produce a relatively waterproof oven. With a couple cords of aged pecan in the back yard, I should have a fun time. > This weekend I will be testing the "baking in a huge kettle" theory (you > know---the modern medieval myth of ancestors laying a board across the > bottom and then using the kettle as an oven). That's if I can get someone > to construct a wooden lid for my huge pot. We'll see. I'd appreciate any > sources of descriptions of this method, should anyone happen to come across > them. Frankly, I expect it will work just as well as any other method. Check out Elizabeth David's English Bread and Yeast Cookery. It has a photograph and some comments about the Welsh using kettles supported on a metal stand for baking in between oven days. The more modern version looks like a dutch oven on stilts, but I bet you can bake bread in a round bottom kettle just as easily. I'll also bet you don't need the board to bake a 2 to 4 pound cottage loaf. Bear Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:06:31 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - OVENS...OVENS...OVENS...OVENS... > It certainly sounds like you will have a good time. Could you by any > chance direct me to that 15th c. painting? Actually it is a painted woodcut with a GIF on the opening web page for the Ulm Bread Museum, at: http://www.opennet.de/brotmuseum-ulm/english.html > And the you said... > Check out Elizabeth David's English Bread and Yeast Cookery. David's book is currently in print. ISBN 0964360004. IIRC, it is $25 list, available from Amazon.com at $14.98. I don't think this one has Karen Hess' commentary. I have an earlier edition, now out-of-print, which has the Hess commentary. This is not connected to Cariadoc's work. Take a look at the commercial bakery oven in Pompeii, at: http://www.eliki.com/ancient/civilizations/pompeii/commercial/ This is not the best photograph of it. David's book has information about ovens and some other views of the Pompeiian bakery. And, Pompeii, A.D. 79, a museum catalog of the Pompeii exhibit has some other information. Maggie Black's The Medieval Cookbook has some nice illustrations. Everything I've seen suggests that Medieval commercial or manor house ovens were stone or brick and followed either the Roman or beehive designs. Baking in kettles or cloche (clay baking stone covered by a clay dome) ovens would be for the small household. Bear Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:37:55 -0400 From: "Philippa Alderton" <phlip at bright.net> Subject: SC - Beehive ovens I've just gotten access to a copy of "The Best from New Mexico Kitchens", and in it, there's a very detailed picture with instructions of a beehive-style oven called an "horno". Would anybody be interested if I were to scan it and send it? Anybody know of a website which might be willing to house it? Phlip Caer Frig Barony of the Middle Marches Middle Kingdom Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:00:57 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: SC - Oven Sites For anyone looking for more information about ovens, here are a couple of sites to try. http://mha-net.org/msb/html/bakeov02.htm http://mha-net.clever.net/msb/html/bakeoven.htm Bear Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:06:07 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: SC - Journal of Primative Technology While running a search I came across this interesting journal. While not specifically in our area of study, it has articles on Syrian ovens, fire-laying, and other odd things. You may wish to take a look. http://www.hollowtop.com/spt_html/backissues.htm Bear Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:41:22 -0800 (PST) From: Donna Hrynkiw <donna at kwantlen.bc.ca> Subject: SC - 13th C image of baker Greetings from Elizabeth Braidwood, Just stumbled across a late 13th century manuscript page depicting a baker at his oven, and another being dragged on a sled with a loaf tied around his neck. Corporation of London Records Office Postcards http://www.lib.uci.edu/largo/clr/clr_imag/clr_cards.html Page also includes images of a couple Opus Anglicanum seal bags, a charter of William I (1067), and Statutes of Richard III (late 15th C, which I remember making into my desktop wallpaper at one point). E.B. Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:19:45 -0400 From: capriest at cs.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman) To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Bread oven Melanie asked: >>The oven is also written up (and dated more precisely) very briefly by Hall >>in Penelope Walton Rogers, _Textile Production at 16-22 Coppergate_. The >>Archaeology of York, Volume 17, Fascicule 11 (York: York Archaeological >>Trust and the Council for British Archaeology, 1997). > >Couldn't find anything in this, do you recall where abouts at all ? In the section on stratigraphy at the very beginning, the part by R.A. Hall. Like I said, it's very brief. Carolyn Priest-Dorman =DE=F3ra Sharptooth capriest at cs. vassar. edu Frostahlid, Austmork http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/thora.html Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:18:34 PDT From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com> Subject: SC - Fwd: Ovens This was forwarded to me by a dear man, and is reposted here with permission of the original author. At Lillies War, someone made and used a beehive type bread oven, here's the story. Bonne From: Potters at onelist.com To: Potters at onelist.com Subject: [Potters] Digest Number 13 Date: 13 Jul 1999 10:32:03 -0000 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:10:10 CDT From: "Eagle Claw" <badhare at hotmail.com> Subject: Bread Ovens Essay Okay, people have asked for this so here it is. My essay on bread ovens and Lilies "mud". The original research that Master Mikhail and I found on bread ovens is that they were typically single chamber ovens. Double chamber ovens were used, but mostly for industrial pursuits rather than for food preparation. With this in mind, we looked at a lot of pictures from illuminations and from re-creationist groups that had already worked with ovens previously. The general concensus is that the most efficient shape is a round dome with a small door in the side at the bottom of the dome and a hole in the "back" of the oven towards the top for the flue. Since Mikhail wasn't comfortable with relying on his skills as a brick layer, he constructed a metal "skeleton" for the oven. This was transported to Lilies with a load of bricks. (Talk about not traveling light!) At the site, we cut away the sod where the oven would set. Patio bricks were placed for the floor of the oven and then the skeleton was placed. A trench was dug in front of the door and across the front of the oven for embers. Next, a skin of chicken wire was put on the metal skeleton (another example of Mikhail's need to over engineer....). We then laid small patio type bricks against the outside of the structure, using mud/clay from the lake shore. (This particular batch of mud/clay came from the Period Encampment area. It had a lot of debris and sand in it, but had a good amount of tackiness to it). We mortared the bricks in with the mud/clay, leaving a hole in the top near the back. This hole would be plugged with a brick during the baking phase, but left open during the firing phase. To finish the oven, we covered the entirety in mud (except for flue hole and door). We let it dry for several hours. Unfortunately, we couldn't let it dry all the way through before firing it as rain threatened to fall and wash away our efforts. So we put a small fire in the oven to try to quicken the drying process. The fire was probably too big too soon and the mud/clay mixture cracked a lot. We filled in cracks as it fired and though it didn't look pretty, it became quite functional for thermal mass. It took about 2 hours to get the oven looking dry. We went ahead and pulled out the fire and embers (fire into the cooking pit nearby and embers into the trench in front of the oven door), and decided to try baking some bread. The bread was put in on the floor (we used some freezer bread dough that had been thawed) and plugged the flue and the door (used pieces of limestone for the door). It took about 20 minutes for the bread to bake through. The bread, of course, had soot and such on the bottom crust, which would be perfectly okay for period, but modern sensibilities made our dinner guests a little concerned about it. We determined that putting a piece of aluminum foil down after pulling out the fire was a good way to maintain a clean baking surface. {note, I recommended to her a brushy damp broom, such as the one of cornhusks I've seen at Old Salem, NC, for cleaning out the soot. - Bonne) Over the course of the week, we found the mud/clay mortar cracking periodically from the heating and cooling of the oven (we fired it once or twice every day). We kept a bucket of mud/clay available nearby to patch it periodically. This seemed to work fine. We did put a tarp over the oven during rainy weather to reduce the chances of the mud/clay loosening itself from the bricks. We determined that it took about an hour to get the oven up to temperature (about 500 degrees Fahrenheit). Then by the time you pulled out the fire/embers, loaded in the bread (this oven held about 8 loaves of bread comfortably), and blocked the door and flue, the oven was about 350 degrees Fahrenheit. It took about 20 minutes to bake the bread. We used the freezer dough instead of making our own since this was an experiment this year. We tried loaves, half loaves and buns. There didn't seem to be much variation in timing between the different sizes of dough. We also had cinnamon rolls one morning! Changes for next year include a smaller, multiple ovens. We're also planning on making clay ovens to transport to the site, rather than making a brick form while there. This will make the technology much more portable. We're discussing the pros and cons of the double chamber versus the single chamber ovens. Also, I will be making my own dough on site to add to the variety of available bread choices. The tools that seemed to be the best for the firing and baking were a long-handled scoopy type "spoon" for scraping out the embers, bbq tongs, and a pair of heavy gloves (for removing the stones in front of the door when it's time to take the bread out. - -Vasilla Vasilla Anastasiia Krasnaia Barony of Mag Mor Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:15:05 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Fwd: Ovens > oftraquair at hotmail.com writes: > << The bread, of course, had soot and such on the bottom crust, which > would be perfectly okay for period, >> > > The bottoms of the ovens would have been cleaned out with a brush used for > that purpose, most likely. I doubt that soot and embers all over the bread > would have been any more 'perfectly okay for period' than it would be OK > for the Current middle ages. What lead you to that conclusion? > > Ras Single chamber ovens are often swabbed just before loading the bread. It cleans out a lot of the large particles of ash and moistens the oven to improve the crust. Modernly, it is common to use coarse corn meal to keep the dough from sticking to the peel or the oven. I suspect coarse meal of barley or millet was used in period for the same purpose Bear Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:56:08 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Fwd: Ovens > << Modernly, it is common to use coarse corn meal to keep the dough from > sticking to the peel or the oven. I suspect coarse meal of barley or > millet was used in period for the same purpose > > Bear >> > > I once used cracked wheat for the same purpose and it worked very well. > > Margherita the Weaver As a guess, any coarse meal can be used. Wheat would not have been used in period because of the expense. Barley was about the cheapest grain readily available to bakers and would likely have been used in this manner. Millet was readily available and while not commonly used in baking, it might have been used as a cheap meal to dust the oven. Bear Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:08:22 PDT From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: SC - Fwd: Ovens ><< The bread, of course, had soot and such on the bottom crust, which would >be perfectly okay for period, >> > >The bottoms of the ovens would have been cleaned out with a brush used for >that purpose, most likely. I doubt that soot and embers all over the bread >would have been any more 'perfectly okay for period' than it would be OK >for the Current middle ages. What lead you to that conclusion? > >Ras Well, it was a forwarded post, so I wasn't led to that conclusion! When requesting permission to forward, I pointed out to the potter who had done the experiment that the oven would have been swept, and explained that I'd seen the single chamber oven at Old Salem, NC scraped with a tool like an angled bar at the end of a rod then swabbed out with a fairly stiff broom made of corn husks. She said that one of the others on the project had attempted a quick swipe with a whisk broom, but the oven was too hot for that plan to work well! I hope the oven experiment itself was of interest, but I'm not surprised dis