eating-plates-msg - 7/25/09 Period eating plates. Roundels. NOTE: See also the files: p-tableware-msg, mazers-msg, utensils-msg, trenchers-msg, Trenchers-Hst-art, merch-pottery-msg, forks-msg, spoons-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: vcarpentier at berksys.com (Victoria Carpentier) Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Request:medieval feast Date: 23 Sep 1994 23:15:06 GMT Organization: BSI > >I want recipes to cook a medieval feast, with my kids. We have read a few > >kids books that describe the royal banquet. They didn't have plates, they > "They didn't have plates" is an overstatement. I believe at least the > wealthier feasters would have trenchers ON plates. Anyway, many rich You can find references to wooden and pewter plates in art works and old writings. At least for the Rennaissance. Bowls were also common. Victoria Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:53:47 -0500 From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong) To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Wooden feast gear documentation >A question has been put to me by a member of my canton, as to >documentation for a set of wooden feast gear she would like to make - >what it might look like (plates vs. trenchers, for instance), what kind >of wood to use, etc. She has been having some trouble finding adequate >resources locally. There are some pictures in Essen und Trinken: Tafelsitten bis zum Ausgang des Mittelalters by Guenther Schiedlausky that show round wooden plates. These are simple rounds of wood with no rim of any kind - soupy stuff would run off the sides. One group of plates is completely unadorned, but there is another set that has scenes painted in the center, like sewing, harvesting, etc. from different months of the year. There is lettering running around the the outside the painted scene. Schiedlausky doesn't say what kind of wood it is, but hardwood seems reasonable. Should be easy to make. Have you looked at any Brueghel peasant paintings? He depicts feasts in simple settings, maybe he shows some wooden tableware along with the pottery. Valoise Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 00:30:49 -0500 From: Dottie Elliott Subject: Re: SC - feastware question >I just got through looking at a site that has beautiful late anglo-saxon >reproduction pottery on it. If this is a web site, I would love to see the address. As someone who has been studying medieval pottery (and learning to make pottery) for a while now I will try to answer this. First of all, our knowledge of the middle ages is based on what archeologist have found, and drawings, paintings and writings or the period. Its my opinon that its impossible to tell from an illuminated manuscript or painting whether an item is metal, pottery or wood. Plates in England aren't found until the late fifteen hundreds and those were square and made of wood. Now, they did have silver plates before that. It was an ostentatious show of wealth and was used as such. Often such plates (and even the more beautiful pottery) was displayed during feasts rather than used as another show of wealth (you have so much you don't need to use it all). Most of the pottery that survives from England are pots, jugs, pitchers, pans and later cups, bowls and so on. Pottery in England in the 10th & 11th centuries was mostly rather simple (well compared to Italy). It was crudely made and decorated possibly not all. Pottery was mostly very functional. Cups of the time are mostly wood (bowls) or metal. Things got better as time went on. I have read that the pottery industry in England collapsed when Rome withdrew and that explains why their pottery was crude early on. Certainly, it was not nearly as finished looking nor as highly decorated as Italy's pottery. Also, let me say that of the cups, bowls and plates I am making, plates are the hardest. You must be careful to leave enough clay for the bottom to be able to use the item but if you leave too much it will warp on drying and be too heavy. My teacher agress that they are one of the harder items to make. Its my personal opinion that poorer folks used simple wood bowls in their own homes because they would have been eating bread (not using it as a plate and throwing/giving it away). This was something they could make themselves as well. Wood doesn't break as easily as pottery either. Please also remember that at feasts folks shared food containers. How many people you might share with depended on your social rank. The type of bread and amount and type of food was dictated by this as well. The trencher was a place to put your portion that you removed from a communal bowl. There is a whole realm of ettiquette on how to share food (like its bad manners to eat the trencher), share cups, etc. Its my opinion that when serving large groups of people, bread trenchers were the only way to give that many folks their own 'plate'. I started learning about pottery with the single intent of making period looking items for displaying my food in A&S contests. I was sadly disappointed to find that for England and France, bread trenchers are what I must use. For Italy, at least, I can do plates & bowls. Clarissa Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 08:57:16 -0700 From: David Walddon Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Simple plates was Size of Trenchers To: Cooks within the SCA I have to dig through my books but I am fairly certain that I have a reference to "paper" plates (oiled parchment?) being used as an plate in Italy in the 1400's. IIRC it was Venetian. Does anyone else recall the reference? Otherwise I will start digging. Eduardo Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 09:35:46 -0700 (PDT) From: avrealtor at prodigy.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Size of Trenchers To: Cooks within the SCA I have used Bamboo veneer plates mundanely and they work out pretty well. They run about a $1 plate and are bio-degradable. Yes, I know bamboo is probably not period, but they look alot better then paper and would be less expensive then making your own probably. A quick search found bulk suppliers. http://www.joannehudson.com/shop/flypage/category/dinnerware_bambu/product/veneerware_11in_bulk_-_100_pack -Muiriath --- On Sat, 7/4/09, David Friedman wrote: I've been corresponding with a lady who is thinking of trying to set up a period cookshop at Pennsic next year. One issue is what tos serve the food on. Bread bowls are modern, paper plates are strikingly modern and cost something, reusable plates have to be washed and risk theft. One obvious answer is bread trenchers--which raises the question of how big they were. The only figure I can find is from _Le Menagier_ and seems to be 4"x6", which would be awfully small for serving food on. I'm wondering if we have other sources, and if one can make a reasonable case that trenchers were sometimes substantially larger than that--large enough to serve moderns as plates. Anyone have anything? -- David/Cariadoc Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 11:07:37 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Size of Trenchers To: SCA-Cooks An alternative to paper plates is disposable dining ware made of leaves. No, i don't mean finding them on site. They are commercially made. Probably more expensive than paper, not necessarily period for Europe (but fine for India), but less glaringly modern. I buy them at Whole Foods and sometimes bring them to camping events to avoid a lot of washing up and because i don't want to risk breaking my irreplaceable expensive period-type Middle Eastern dinnerware (some by a Laurel in Australia, some by a Laurel from Kentucky). When i ate at an Indian restaurant in Singapore back in the late 1970s, all diners communally sat on long benches at long tables. Someone came down the rows and slapped down a clean fresh leaf - large and long, having an area equivalent to a dinner plate, although not the shape - in front of newly arrived diners. Then someone else came down the rows with a stainless steel "bucket" of rice, scooped out a serving and dumped it on the leaf. Then another person came by with a "bucket" of vegetarian "curry", and another with condiments. One ate with one's hands. And when a diner was finished someone came a refuse bucket, and swept the leaf and crumbs off the table. No washing up and all biodegradable. And not particularly Medieval European... Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:27:15 -0400 From: Barbara Benson Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Simple plates was Size of Trenchers To: Cooks within the SCA I have not seen this reference, but I doubt that they were using parchment for this purpose. If the reference is to "paper" plates then it is most likely actually paper. Paper was being manufactured in Spain as early as 1150 and the first of the Fabriano mills were established in Italy in 1276 with paper being recorded as being used in the same Italian area as early as 1154. By the 1400's paper would have been widely available and used in Italy as well as many of the other European countries. It was considerably less expensive to manufacture than parchment and would have been seen as "disposable" whereas parchment was much more highly valued for it's other uses. I would love to hear more about this reference to paper plates - paper things are one of my "special" interests and particularly challenging due to their very ephemeral nature. -- Serena da Riva On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 11:57 AM, David Walddon wrote: <<< I have to dig through my books but I am fairly certain that I have a reference to "paper" plates (oiled parchment?) being used as an plate in Italy in the 1400's. IIRC it was Venetian. Does anyone else recall the reference? Otherwise I will start digging. We are having a Scappi cooking day today so it might be tomorrow. Eduardo >>> Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:49:55 -0400 From: Robin Carroll-Mann Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Size of Trenchers To: Cooks within the SCA There's an article about Tudor and Stuart table-settings by Peter Brears in "The Appetite and the Eye". Data from the records of the Pewterers' Company in 1533 suggest that pewter trenchers were about 7 or 8 inches in diameter. He mentions wooden trenchers, both square and round, but doesn't give sizes. Brighid ni Chiarain Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:10:24 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Size of Trenchers To: "Cooks within the SCA" IIRC, there is a painting of John of Gaunt with two square metal trenchers joined book style on the table before him. They appear to be about 12 inches square. A kitchen scene by Campi shows round dished plates standing in a plate rack on the wall. They appear to be able to serve as plates or bowls and appear to be about a foot in diameter. The color appears to be a dark blue so they might be metal or stoneware. Bear Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 08:00:55 -0400 From: Elise Fleming Subject: [Sca-cooks] Trenchers, Etc. Was Size of Trenchers To: sca-cooks Peter Brears, in his new book "Cooking and Dining in Medieval England, says (regarding bread trenchers) that "portions of solid foods were placed [on them] - once they had been cut out of the joints on the dishes - so that they could be cut into smaller pieces and lifted to the mouth...they were not plates. Food was never piled on them, and sloppy foods never placed on them...Their function was to preserve the tablecloth from knife-cuts and any form of soiling, not to hold the whole of a person's entire course before them." So, our idea of trenchers being equal to our modern plates would seem to be erroneous. He cites use of silver trenchers in the 1360s and wooden trenchers being shipped in quantity in 1499 (16-25 cost a penny). Marina (Jane Boyko) mentioned dessert trenchers (aka "roundels"). There are some photos of some in the V&A and one at Hampton Court on my Flickr page: http://www.flickr.com/photos/8311418 at N08/sets/72157604451045938/ . Unfortunately, the V&A ones aren't clear. Her guess of 6 inches would seem to be accurate. I found one modern source that said they were made of sycamore or beech and were about 5 - 5.5 inches in diameter. In 1391 the Earl of Derby had pewter "spyce-plates" which had weights from 6 ounces to 1.5 lbs. Besides being made of wood, roundels could be made of sugar paste or marzipan. The banquet course (dessert) "plates" came in various shapes and could even be made of glass (which could be rented!). Some were oval shaped, some had a handle on one side with which to hold the plate. Here are some "poesies" that were I found in various books which were taken from period "roundels" or dessert trenchers. 1. Be neither dumb nor give your tongue the lease, But speak thou well or hear and hold your peace. (Elizabethan) 2. I thou be young, then marry not yet/ If thou be old thou hast more gette/ For young men?s wives wil not be taught/ And old men?s wives be good for naught. (16th c.) 3. Beshrew his heart that married me/ My wife and I can never agree/ A knavish queen by this I swear/ The goodman's breeches she thinks to wear. (16th c.) 4. The Ape would have half Leonard?s tayle/ To hide his bum naked as his nayle/ The meaning is, such as have store/ Should be more liberal to the poor. (early 17th c.) 5. Biblical: All they will live Godly in Christ Jhesu must suffer persecution 2 times 3. 6. We must enter the kingdom of God through much trouble and affliction. People ate off the plain side and then turned over the roundel to read, sing, or perform the words on the back. Designs came from many sources. Sometimes colored prints were cut out, glued to the back, and varnished over. Alys K. -- Elise Fleming alysk at ix.netcom.com http://home.netcom.com/~alysk/ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:38:15 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: [Sca-cooks] Roundels was To: Cooks within the SCA Continuing what Countess Alys has already said, Roundels appear in a number of museum collections. Birmingham has this set with this description "11 sycamore roundels in a circular beech box dating from around 1550 -1600." http://www.bmagic.org.uk/objects/1965T2441.5 scroll down to see other examples to click upon. --------------- Searching the collection at the V&A http://collections.vam.ac.uk/ one finds a rather splendid set of 12 Twelve Wonders of the World Date 1600-1630 Techniques Sycamore, with painted decoration in white and gold on black http://collections.vam.ac.uk/objectid/O78997 ----- St Albans http://www.stalbansmuseums.org.uk/ http://www.stalbansmuseums.org.uk/content/view/full/15946 Searching under just "roundel" turns up more photos. Try *http://tinyurl.com/kk2umw ------------ *What's interesting is that prints begin to appear in books in the 17th century that might be used for roundels and trenchers. * "*/12 Plates for cheez trenchers" see http://bpi1700.cch.kcl.ac.uk/printsMonths/may2008.html/ * *As to paper being used as suggested by Eduardo I came across this mention "I've been intrigued by the Elizabethan roundels, thin wooden (sometimes just varnished paper) placemats. The examples I've seen have poems or verses with an illustration. They were typically handed out in box sets, very much like the cork placemats elderly aunts today invariably give as wedding gifts. I like the idea of producing a set for personal use, as well as possibly producing a set for a feast, with the menu on one side and songs on the other. I'm still in the experimental stage with these, looking for suitable artwork or artwork styles. I think they'd be very handy as an encouragement to singing for the hundreds of songs we know the chorus to but can only stumble through the verses. (The example shown here has the verses for /Greensleeves/." This is from an SCA member's website. webcentre.co.nz/kk/printing.htm I'll to check some books. I think I have more references to this also. Johnnae Edited by Mark S. Harris eating-plates-msg Page 8 of 8