dough-contain-msg - 9/6/09 Dough as the baking container. Free-standing pie crusts. Coffins, Coffyns. NOTE: See also the files: pies-msg, meat-pies-msg, tarts-msg, pastries-msg, fish-pies-msg, flour-msg, ovens-msg, cooking-oils-msg, eggs-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:44:34 -0500 From: "Bethany Public Library" Subject: Re: SC - Traps? Actually, the crust in which the meat pies were often cooked could be referred to as Coffins in many English recipes. Sometimes one might receive the instruction to "raise" the coffin. Now, if one were deceased, that might prove an interesting feat. However, the coffin was actually a box-shape (coffin being a generic word for Box in Middle English, IIRC), and the contents of the coffin was usually fowl or pork or game, rarely beef, though there are always exceptions. Naturally I don't have my sources with me here at work, but I have looked into it in the past. Usta teach a class on the subject. My favorite English butcher has departed this earth, but she always made her Melton Mowbray pies square or rectangular, using just such a , well, not a ring, but a bottomless rectangle with a rolled upper edge. That's not evidence of period practice, however, just a fond memory. Raising the coffin referred to the process of using a stiff dough to mold the shape: perhaps with the aid of a trap (mold), perhaps not. I know that clay pot-making skills have always been handy for me, and sometimes I use the outside of a handy container for the mold. We know those solid pies were meant to stand on their own after cooking, without the aid of a pan or form. You'd need a very hard-baking, stiff crust to do that. It has been postulated that the crust, at least in earlier pies, was meant to be discarded and was used primarily for containment (I have even read a description of the crust in a modern discussion as part of those ubiquitous "alms" that were given to the poor though I am not sure if this is verifiable). There is no doubt that the contents were the main "thing" however, and the crust may have served the purpose of a temporary container, helping to preserve the food inside for a few more days of it's limited shelf life. Adamantius could probably give us a good exposition on the make-up of a good, hard crust, if he was feeling so inclined on this nice spring day. I go for hot-water crust myself, made with real butter. Butter always hardens well for me, and is much harder than most other fats are when cold IMO. I usually need the use of a collar to restrain the sides of the pie while baking. And given my modern background, I usually serve meat pies cold. How else would done get that wonderful, flavorful jelly? Aoife Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 19:32:28 -0600 From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" Subject: SC - RE:SC Traps Aoife comments: >>>Adamantius could probably give us a good exposition on the make-up of a good, hard crust, if he was feeling so inclined on this nice spring day. I go for hot-water crust myself, made with real butter. Butter always hardens well for me, and is much harder than most other fats are when cold IMO. I usually need the use of a collar to restrain the sides of the pie while baking.<<< I have always made my Melton Mowbrays in raised pastry coffins, though usually round. Hi-gluten flour and boiling lard are what I use to make the dough, coiling on an inch thick base like making pottery. This is what Elisabeth Ayrton instructs in _Provential English Cooking_. She notes that her recipe comes from the 14th century. Arundel Castle I think. Actually, the crust if you pour in sufficient stock becomes quite tasty and a good deal usually is eaten by the feasters in my experience (about a third of the crust) Akim Yaroslavich Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:29:15 -0500 From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" Subject: SC - Re: Lard Cedrin remarks: >>>>With that in mind, I'll agree that lard makes wonderfully flaky pastry. It, however, makes a terrible crust for a free standing tall coffin shape. You look at it funny and you have a pile of flakes. Don't even think about trying to cut through it. <<<< Whoa!!! You must be doing something wrong. The English have been using lard to make tall coffin pyes like Melton Mowbrays for 500 years! Lard is the ONLY good period ingredient for making tall coffins. Are you using a high gluten flour and pouring in the lard boiling. I have no trouble making 8" or so high coffins. I can even do high relief sculpture on the lids with it. The pyes are very free standing. Did you prebake your crust shell slightly to set it before filled it? That is often nescessary with very large and tall coffins. "Setting" the shell properly depends on the right procedures in mixing dough and having correct oven temperature control. In modern gas ovens I find I have to protect the top crust though as the top clearances are less than traditional dome ovens and it will darken too fast and burn instead of a glorious golden brown. Incidentally, you also need to liberally paint the shell in beaten egg yolk too for best results. Akim Yaroslavich Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 21:53:25 -0500 From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" Subject: SC - Re: Lard Balthazar says: >>>>Allright...I think I am clueless again. Can anyone send me the recipe for this? I would like to see what you are talking about. I think my idea of a "coffin" pastry is different than the one you folks are thinking of.<<<< Here is the recipe I use for raised (coffin) pyes: 1 Kg high gluten wheat flour (2.2 lb.) (NEVER self rising) 15g Salt (1 Tbsp) 1/2 Kg Lard (1.1 lb.) 1.5 dl milk (5/8 cup) 1.5 dl water (5/8 cup) 2 large eggs well beaten 1 stick butter Sift the flour and salt together and rub the firm butter into the flour with the fingertips until crumbly. Boil the lard with the milk and water. (Warning: do not add either to already boiling lard. Bring them to a boil together!) Make a well in your mixed flour and pour in the boiling (actually boiling, not just hot) lard. Stir with a stout wood spoon until cooled enough to knead with your bare hands... still very hot, mind you. You may wear rubber gloves, but I find the very hot dough and grease to be very good for my arthiritis and very moisturizing to the skin. Knead well and let stand for 10 minutes. Roll out some of the dough for the bottom of the coffin 2cm to 3cm thick (3/4" to1 1/4" +/-) and cut to shape of pye (round is easiest) and about 1cm (1/3") bigger than you think you want the finished coffin to be. The dough/ paste must be worked while hot or at least warm. The taller the coffin, the thicker the base and walls required, so adjust your dough amounts prepared accordingly. Build up the sides with coiled dough like a potter builds a pot until you get it the height you want. Smooth the outsides carefully outside and in, always working the paste upwards. If you are using a soild meat filling like small pieces of pork with currants and such, you can pack it in solidly and put on a lid piece without setting the pastry. If your filling is more liquid like a fruit filling, you will need to set the form before filling. I recommend using long sheets of aluminum foil folded several times lengthwise to make a kind of "bellyband" to help keep the form from bowing or collapsing. I use paperclips to hold the joined folds of foil closed. Brush the pye with the beaten egg, reserving some for later. Bake at 190C (375F, Gas Mark 5) for 20 minutes to set the pastry. If already filled, reduce to 170C (325F, Gas Mark 3) to continue baking. If not filled, cool and fill, then bake at 170C (325F, Gas Mark 3). Obviously, the filling will have a great deal to do with the time of baking required, as will the size of your creation. A soild raw meat filling will take 1 3/4 to 2 1/2 hours for a largish pye like this one. Fruit/ mincemeat will take about 1 to 1 1/2 hours. Success requires some experimentation, but generally even the failures are delicious. About 10 minutes before the end of cooking time, baste the whole thing with the remaining beaten egg to give the pastry a good gold gloss. Let the pye become quite cool before serving. A few notes: For the pork pye, trim picnic shoulder to bite sized gobbets, including fat (but not skin or gristle). Season with fresh rubbed sage, basil, salt and pepper; maybe some rosemary or galingale if you like the taste). Leave a 5cm (2") hole in the top crust to let out steam and to pour in some reduced stock if you like to fill the pye after it comes out of the oven. You can use leftover paste/dough to ornament the lid with flowers or heraldic critters. It is very easy to do fairly elaborate sculpture as long as you do it in high relief and not freestanding. Baste liberally with beaten egg and use foil tents to keep it from browning unevenly. For the less adventuresome, I suggest using a large springform to mold the coffin, however, the bottom and sides must still be thick so as not to fall apart from the weight of the filling when you release it from the form. This is not a period method, though I assume pyes were raised by the coil method in period. I would think they had some kind of clay pottery forms though, as they made these quite reqularly, whereas a special form for our ocassional use is not very practical. The dough ingredients are traditional to English cookery, allegedly back to the 14th century. Of late, the English have been substituting half of the lard with butter though. The particular recipe for Melton Mowbray Pyes supposedly has its roots in 14th c. Arundel Castle. Perhaps some of our list members across the pond could see if they can find a period source from there? Have fun experimenting! Akim Yaroslavich Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:54:31 -0500 From: Daniel Myers Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pillsbury pie crusts To: Cooks within the SCA On Nov 4, 2004, at 11:48 AM, Chris Stanifer wrote: > Another reason you may wish to make 'pie crusts' by hand for period > feasts is that there appears > to be a bit of evidence that the 'pie crusts' used in many of the > extant recipes were not all that > flaky or tender to begin with. It all depends on how authentic you > want to be. A crust used to > encase a rabbit (Hare Pie???), and take the shape of the original > creature would need to be > sturdy. A modern flaky pie crust may well crumble under its own > weight if used in this manner. Having done a good amount of research and experimentation on pie crusts, I'm inclined to disagree. There are many paintings from just after period of standing crust pies where it can clearly be seen that the walls are less than a quarter of an inch thick. I've also made a number of dishes using standard pie crust recipes that are sculpted and stand up quite well on their own (see the pics at the URLs below). None of them had a tendency to crumble. As long as there's something that the crust is wrapped around, then it has plenty of support. "Still-life with Turkey-Pie" (detail), Pieter Claesz, c. 1630 http://www.medievalcookery.com/images/standing1.jpg "Breakfast Table with Blackberry Pie" (detail), Willem Claesz Heda (1631) http://www.medievalcookery.com/images/standing4.jpg Some of my own experiments: A Dish of Artichokes - http://www.medievalcookery.com/images/artichoke.jpg A chicken pie shaped like a fish - http://www.medievalcookery.com/images/fish.jpg Standing crust experiment - http://www.medievalcookery.com/images/crust.jpg (the final version of this one was larger and thinner) Also see the painting "Kitchen" (Vincenzo Campi, 1580s) in which there is a woman rolling out a thin top crust for a double crust pie in a modern-shaped pie pan. http://www.wga.hu/art/c/campi/vincenzo/2kitchen.jpg > There are those, like myself, who believe that some of these crusts > were not even meant to be > eaten, but rather acted as sturdy little pastry ovens to help keep the > contents moist and > protected from excessive heat. When the dish was served, the crust > was cut away and discarded. While some standing crusts may have been used as a preservation method and were not intended to be eaten, this is certainly not the case for all crusts, as evidenced by the following (emphasis added): "To make Paste, and to raise Coffins. Take fine flower, and lay it on a boord, and take a certaine of yolkes of Egges as your quantitie of flower is, then take a certaine of Butter and water, and boil them together, but ye must take heed ye put not too many yolks of Egges, *** for if you doe, it will make it drie and not pleasant in eating ***: and yee must take heed ye put not in too much Butter for if you doe, it will make it so fine and short that you cannot raise. And this paste is good to raise all manner of Coffins: Likewise if ye bake Venison, bake it in the paste above named. " Source [The Good Huswifes Handmaide for the Kitchen, Stuart Peachey (ed.), c. 1588] - Doc Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:34:32 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns To: Cooks within the SCA Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote: > Now, I have no compelling evidence to suggest that this method was > used in period, nor that anything like a hot-water dough appears until > the seventeenth century, but it's tempting to assume such a thing > could have been done (whether or not it actually was is another > story), since the technology clearly existed for other types of > manufacture. > > As for the question of the thickness of the pastry and whether you > need support, it also becomes more stable when the pastry is filled > with something fairly solid, and a lid sealed in place. > > Adamantius I am on my way out the door but Markham does include a "rye paste would be kneaded only with hot water and a little butter, or sweet seam and rye flour very finely sifted, and it would be made tough and stiff that it may stand well in the raising for the coffin thereof must ever be very deep: your coarse wheat crust would be kneaded with hot water, or mutton broth and good store of butter, and the paste made stiff and tough because that coffin must be deep also..." Best edition on pages 96-98. Johnnae Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 22:22:38 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns To: "Zelina Silverfox" , "Cooks within the SCA" > Um..question...may sound odd but here goes. > How thick should the pastry be to free stand 8 inches on the sides > without collapsing on itself? I am assuming ( I know... bad word) that > the top would have been done seperately and put on towards the end of > the final baking stage. > > ~Zelina~ How stiff is the pastry dough? The less pliable the dough, the thinner the wall can be. I'm of the opinion that a freestanding pastry can made at a thickness of 1/4 to 1/8 inches, but that it would take considerable practice to be able to do it consistently. Bear Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 23:28:45 -0500 From: Daniel Myers Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns To: Cooks within the SCA On Feb 19, 2005, at 11:41 AM, Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote: > Also sprach Daniel Myers: >> Source [Liber cure cocorum]: For lyoure best. Take drye floure, in >> cofyne hit close, And bake hit hard, as I suppose. Thou may hit kepe >> alle thys fyve 3ere, There-with alye mony metes sere. (England, c. >> 1430) > > Hmmm. In the above instance, are we reasonably sure the coffin in > question is, in fact, dough? As far as I can tell, this appears to be > a recipe for processing a thickening starch by baking flour in a > sealed box or pot of an unspecified nature, but which may be a sealed > pie crust, which would also make some sense, given the availability of > the materials in a kitchen. Does LCC (a source I haven't looked at in > a while) have these two recipes in sequence? Actually, the recipes do show up one right after the other, but when I pasted them into the email I reversed the order. They should have been presented as: To keep herb3 over the wyntur. Take floure and rere tho cofyns fyne, Wele stondande withouten stine; Take tenderons of sauge with owte lesyng, And stop one fulle up to tho ryng; Thenne close tho lyd fayre and wele, That ayre go not oute never a dele, Do so with saveray, percil and rewe; And thenne bake hom harde, wel ne3e brende; Sythun, kepe hom drye and to hom tent; This powder schalle be of more vertu, Then opone erthe when hit gru. For lyoure best. Take drye floure, in cofyne hit close, And bake hit hard, as I suppose; Thou may hit kepe alle thys fyve 3ere, There-with alye mony metes sere; Here endys oure sawce, that I foretolde. - Doc -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers) Pasciunt, mugiunt, confidiunt. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:00:47 -0500 From: Daniel Myers Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns To: Cooks within the SCA On Feb 20, 2005, at 2:17 AM, Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote: > Stefan, can you tell us more about your reasoning in reaching this > conclusion? I'm not sure I buy the rectangular pie coffin idea: there > are illustrations of what appear to be pies in various manuscripts, > and they seem to me to mostly round or elliptical. I agree that the majority of pictures I've seen are exactly as you saw. However, I vaguely recall seeing a primary source that described making a rectangular pie (I remember because it surprised me at the time), but I can't find the reference at this time. I'll keep looking. > As for the thickness required to make an eight-inch high side which > will remain standing, there are some things that we need to consider. > I'm not sure if eight inches in height is a reasonable expectation > (maybe there's some textual reference I'm not familiar with, but apart > from the various English recipes for pies in the shape of Towers, > eight inches sounds a little high, when most specific recipe > instructions that refer to height tend to call for one, or in some > cases two, inches in height for tarts). Mind you, these paintings may not be to scale, but relative to the size of the hands of the people nearby I'd guess that the standing pies are about 4 or 5 inches tall. Les festins, Roman de Lancelot en prose, France (15th c.) http://expositions.bnf.fr/gastro/grands/131.htm La succession des plats, Grandes Heures d'Anne de Bretagne (late 15th c.) http://expositions.bnf.fr/gastro/grands/130.htm As long as there's some kind of support during the baking process, the crust of a free-standing pie can easily be eight inches high and still be 1/8 to 1/4 inch thick. Without such support though they (at least the ones I've made) tend to warp and deform. The bowl I made for the "dish of artichokes" was a crust that was blind baked upside-down, using a handy kitchen bowl as a form (the crust was on the *outside* of the bowl). [logical warning: "slippery slope" reasoning follows] While I have absolutely no documentation that this was ever done in period, it's such an obvious solution that I'm reluctant to say it wasn't done. A Dishe of Artechokes http://www.medievalcookery.com/images/artechokes.jpg - Doc -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:35:32 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns To: Cooks within the SCA Karen Hess in her commentary to Martha Washington's Booke of Cookery writes that "A coffin is a mold made of pastry. the word comes from Old French cofin and finally from Greek cophinos, meaning basket (OED). While they could be any shape, they seem to have been rectangular as often as not, judging by the occasional specification for a round coffin, as in this recipe. They were closed unless directed otherwise." Page 83. Johnnae >> While I understand that a coffyn is rectangular in >> shape, hence the transference of the word to the box we bury people >> in. >> >> Stefan > Stefan, can you tell us more about your reasoning in reaching this > conclusion? I'm not sure I buy the rectangular pie coffin idea: there > are illustrations of what appear to be pies in various manuscripts, > and they seem to me to mostly round or elliptical. > > I think (and I could be wrong here) that we bury people in long, > rectangular boxes because, well, a human body is oblong (spherical > peers notwithstanding). A coffin, though, is simply a case, usually > roughly in the shape of whatever it's supposed to contain, so it can > be any shape and still be a coffin, as far as I know: the name does > not directly imply oblong-ness. > Adamantius Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:45:27 -0500 From: "Phlip" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Karen Hess in her commentary to Martha Washington's > Booke of Cookery writes that > "A coffin is a mold made of pastry. the word comes from > Old French cofin and finally from Greek cophinos, meaning basket > (OED). While they could be any shape, they seem to have been rectangular > as often as not, judging by the occasional specification for a round coffin, > as in this recipe. They were closed unless directed otherwise." > Page 83. > > Johnnae Dunno how much can be read into an instruction in terms of implying other coffins were frequently rectangular. It seems to me that if they could and were often any shape, the choice might as easily be between round and oval, as opposed to circular and rectlinear. In otherwords, using a coffin frequently to make, say, a roasted chicken, it might make sense to normally have an oval shape, but if one were doing something else, where you wanted to assure the ingredients were cooked evenly- an eggy sort of thing, perhaps- you might specify round, so that all areas of the item were evenly cooked. The rectilinear types tend to have the corners more cooked than the centers, which is fine for many things, but might not be fine for an amalgamation that is a bit more sensitive to temperature and cooking time variants. In many cases, medieval folks didn't necessarily know WHY something worked best a particular way, they just knew that it DID work best a particular way. Very practical, if not theoreticly sound, people. Saint Phlip, CoD Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 01:23:02 -0800 (PST) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns To: Cooks within the SCA --- Stefan li Rous wrote: > Okay, this does make sense. Anyone have the OED > definition handy for "coffyn" or "coffin"? [ME. cofin, coffyn, etc., a. OF. cofin, coffin, little basket, case, etc., ad. L. cophin-us (later cofin-us), a. Gr. basket.] 4. Cookery. a. A mould of paste for a pie; the crust of a pie. Obs. c1420 Liber Cocorum (1862) 41 Make a cofyne as to smalle pye. c1420 Cookery Bk. 45 Make fayre past of flowre & water, Sugre, & Safroun, & Salt; & an make fayre round cofyns δer-of. 1588 SHAKES. Tit. A. V. ii. 189 Of the paste a coffen I will reare. a1654 SELDEN Table-t. (Arb.) 33 The Coffin of our Christmas Pies in shape long, is in imitation of the Cratch. 1750 E. SMITH Compl. Housewife 157 Season your lamb with pepper, salt..So put it into your coffin. b. A pie-dish or mould. Obs. 1580 in Wadley Bristol Wills (1886) 225 Twelve voyders; a Custerd coffyn. 1596 SHAKES. Tam. Shr. IV. iii. 82. 1602 PLAT Delightes for Ladies, Coffins of white plate. a1662 HEYLIN Laud II. 302 Which Notes..he kept in the Coffin of a Pye, which had been sent him by his Mother. Huette Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:50:37 -0500 From: "Nancy Kiel" Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org I don't want to say that pie crusts weren't made this way, but I'm not sure why one would want to make the crusts this way. I've worked with the stuff----it's basically clay, or Play-do, or Sculpey in consistency, and it's quite easy to roll out a bottom of whatever shape you like, roll out a strip that's the side, and pinch and "glue" it together. If you want to bake it blind, so you can put your blackbirds in later, you can fill it with flour, or bread. Nancy Kiel > From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" > To: Cooks within the SCA > Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns > Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:59:09 -0500 > > Also sprach Nancy Kiel: >> Also, if the pastry is thick enough to stand on its own, you don't need a >> form. > > True, but I was just talking about using a form for mass-producing > identical shells somewhat more quickly than you might otherwise. At least > that's the rationale in modern pork pie production when the wooden block > form is used (there are also extremely fancy hinged molds you can buy for > larger pies and pates, but that's not really to address mass production > issues). > > The way it works is, you roll your pastry into a smooth ball (having first > determined, more or less, how much you'll need to do the job, either > through past experience or a trial attempt), and then squoosh (that is a > technical term) the wooden block, which resembles a hockey puck on a stick, > with the stick protruding from one of the flat surfaces, into the dough, > which spreads it out and forces the surface of the dough ball to begin to > wrap itself around the block and up the sides. You then pat the sides, > turning the whole thing occasionally via the stick, a la a potter's wheel, > until they come evenly up the sides of the form, taking on its shape. You > have the option of trimming the sides to smooth the edges. > > To remove the dough from the form, you roll it on its edge on your pastry > board, which thins it slightly and, consequently, increases its > circumference and diameter accordingly, which tends to create a space > between the form and the dough (hot-water pastry isn't sticky), making the > form easy to remove with a twist of the stick. The pastry will also harden > pretty dramatically as it cools off. > > Now, I have no compelling evidence to suggest that this method was used in > period, nor that anything like a hot-water dough appears until the > seventeenth century, but it's tempting to assume such a thing could have > been done (whether or not it actually was is another story), since the > technology clearly existed for other types of manufacture. > > As for the question of the thickness of the pastry and whether you need > support, it also becomes more stable when the pastry is filled with > something fairly solid, and a lid sealed in place. > > Adamantius Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:39:29 -0800 (PST) From: she not Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Bear (referring to the interesting conversation with Adamantius) asked: Do we know anything about the shape of raised coffins prior to 1600? Do we have any references as to their place in a feast? What do we know about raised coffins other than the recipes? If one has trappes, why raise a free standing pie shell rather than form the shell inside or outside of the trappe ? I don't have any of the sources to hand at the moment, working from memory, but.. "If," Indeed. Think period solutions to period problems! raised pies, as far as I can tell, were expedient to replace pans and dishes, although now they're often baked in pans. (keep in mind that not everybody had the resources a court cook like Taillevent had. Since the royal kitchen always needed to feed lots of people, he would have had more pans on hand than most of his contemporaries) Using a trap is easier, but not necessary. and after all, why put hot food on a cold dish when you can send it out in nice filling pastry that won't suck the heat right out of it? I had a very good collection of articles on food and traveling items published as a memoriam for a Canadian archeologist/anthropologist- ca 1950's, which included a prewar study from a Polish peasant village on household distribution of cooking utensils. It found that most households had 2-5 pans of different sizes, small to medium, very small households (widows, etc) had just one or two small pots, and wealthy households and large farms with many workers had 8-12 pots, including 2-3 large ones and a few special purpose pans. occasions like holidays and weddings were community efforts: the host provided the food, but borrowed pots to cook it in. (loaning these pots was a social duty affirming communal relations and mutual dependency, as well as a custom enabling suitable display for a celebration, comparable to the borrowed lying-in gear gathered from various noble connections you will see in the Lisle letters.) the thickness of the pastry and whether you need > support, it also becomes more stable when the pastry is filled with > something fairly solid, and a lid sealed in place... Most modern raised pies, pork pies being the most common, are pretty much a galantine, i.e., are baked with a dry filling, which is then sealed with a jellied stock poured in hot. (hence the required hole cut in the top pastry-you remove it, fill the pie with stock, then replace it) This does slow down spoilage, by sealing air away from the food, in the same way later pies are filled with butter, and of course, as pates and other cooked meats are sealed with lard in charcuteries. This in itself is a pretty good argument that it's a period practice- preservation methods developed pre-refrigeration are probably survivals from medieval times. (think how popular galantines were in high medieval and renaissance cookbooks, often using vinegar or wine as some part of the liquid. they didn't NEED to be made in a fancy mold, they could just as easily be made in a coffyn.) Pouring in liquid after baking also flavors and moistens the crust as well as the filling, similar technique to pouring the syrup on baklava -try eating a pork or chicken pie without that jelly! Also, putting the lid on, sealed with water ( and flour, for choice) DOES help keep the crust from flopping before it's baked. This crust needs to be about 1/4 inch thick or more to work. Elizabeth David's English book had the best recipe i've used for a traditional raised pork pie with hot water crust- I manage to do it without a pan, and I am notoriously all thumbs. (I use her suggestion of forming it first on an upside down loaf pan, but it can be done freestyle...just not by me) the long oblong shape is very practical, since it yields many attractive cross sections (slices) with minimal crust, but the filling isn't so heavy it breaks under its own weight, which were doubtless concerns in period too. Pies may have been molded, when possible, but most of what I've seen indicates that they are built up or raised: later recipes suggest a strip of paper attached around the upper part to stabilize it, and I have seen a "twist" of hay or straw suggested for the purpose in other descriptions. Baking flour in a shell is sometimes suggested the same way we use beans to bake a blind-as for live birds in a pie- and there's no reason to suppose the flour was tossed afterward, since there are several uses for toasted flour. (and rice) "some manuscript illuminations that show free-standing pastries: I'd guess (scale being what it is in such drawings) that a pie in a medieval feast might have been anywhere from maybe six inches high and ten inches across, to larger, looking vaguely like a hatbox with a slightly domed, but inset/flanged lid. " some bird shaped pies were simply formed around the bird to be baked; this is especially good for a boned stuffed bird. the flange is the doubled crust that holds it together. I think I've seen this in illustrations -probably the same ones! It would be relatively easy to do with the pretty mosaic of arranged multiple meats for a galantine too, since the crust would keep a mound of meats together for baking, and the jelly stabilizes the whole thing afterward. The construction is useful when you're dealing with the mixed game "bag" result from a recreational hunt, which may not yield enough ducks or quail for a separate dish, but plenty, combined with the rabbits and some ham, chicken, etc, for pies to supplement the roast. Raised pies lend themselves to decoration outside too- coats of arms, flowers, etc, can be cut out of leftover paste and laid on top and "glued" to the sides with egg, gilded or otherwise colored. Remember too, these pies are served COLD, so are much more stable (and portable) than when hot, and, of course, can be baked and kept for use as needed, hence the preservation/sealing angle. Martino's live birds in a pie uses a trappe to form the shell and a filling of flour to hold the shape of the top crust. Why raise a coffin, rather then mold a shell? Habit? even baking? lack of a suitable mold? "aren't there menu references and recipes to Great Pies and Pies de Paris in fifteenth century England? I was struck by the absence of recipes in earlier English sources, while Chiquart and Tallevent mention these pies, and give fairly detailed instructions for, at least, the fillings. One could argue the 15th century English recipe for a Grete Pye is an evolution, or (and more likely) importation from the Continent." Can't check references on England's sumptuary laws, but the great pie was a fine way to get around restrictions on the number of dishes - conspicuous consumption being very popular, especially for the merchant class primarily affected by them. Not entirely apropos, but possibly a survival of the towers and great pyes;:) England's traditional layered wedding cake was actually several different cakes, one to be eaten fresh, longer lasting cakes to send to absent friends, and the top a fruitcake to be shared on the first anniversary- lots of ceremony involved in deconstructing it-I think Eliza Acton had that recipe. Gisele Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Bear (referring to the interesting conversation with adamantius) asked: > Do we know anything about > the shape of raised coffins prior to 1600? Do we have any references as to > their place in a feast? Whatdo we know about raised coffins other than the > recipes? > If one has trappes, why raise a free standing pie shell rather than form > the shell inside or outside of the trappe ? > > I don't have any of the sources to hand at the moment, working from > memory, but.. My question is "what do we know?" I'm asking for facts, not speculation. I have found that when I gather facts and examine them, they produce a very different picture from what "everyone knows." > "If," indeed..think period solutons to period problems! raised pies, as > far as I can tell, were expedient to replace pans and dishes, although now > they're often baked in pans. (keep in mind that not everybody had the > resources a court cook like Taillevent had. Since the royal kitchen > always needed to feed lots of people, he would have had more pans on hand > than most of his contemporaries) Using a trap is easier, but not > necessary. and after all, why put hot food on a cold dish when you can > send it out in nice filing pastry that won't suck the heat right out of > it? Most of the recipes we reference are from noble households which had to feed lots of people. They had considerable resources including well stocked kitchens and, often, well stocked bakeries. As for the trappes, they are baking pans. The pastries are baked in them. The pastry can either be removed from them or served in them. > I had a very good collection of articles on food and travelling items > published as a memoriam for a canadian arheologist/anthropologist- ca > 1950's, which included a prewar study from a Polish peasant village on > household distribution of cooking utensils. It found that most households > had 2-5 pans of different sizes, small to medium, very small households > (widows, etc) had just one or two small pots, and wealthy households and > large farms with many workers had 8-12 pots, including 2-3 large ones and > a few special purpose pans. occasions like holidays and weddings were > community efforts: the hst provided the food, but borrowed pots to cook > it in. (loaning these pots was a social duty affirming communal relations > and mutual dependency, as well as a custom enabling suitable display for a > celebration, comparable to the borrowed lyig-in gear gathered from > various noble connections you will see in the Lisle letters.) Interesting, but of little import unless it can be demonstrated that peasant families in the High Middle Ages baked raised coffins. The fact that raised coffins appear lower on the social scale in Late Renaissance and Early Modern does not necessarily support their use at those social levels in the Middle Ages. > Martino's live birds in a pie uses a trappe to form the shell > and a filling of flour to hold the shape of the top crust. Why raise a > coffin, rather then mold a shell? > > Habit? even baking? lack of a suitable mold? From the woodcuts I've seen baker's had the habit of using pans (trappes) for baking pastries. The medieval heat mass oven produces an even heat matched only by a modern convection oven. Possibly the lack of a suitable pan, but I want to see the evidence. Professionals have and use professional tools, and the cooks and bakers of the Middle Ages were no exception. > "arent > there menu references and recipes to Great Pies and Pies de Paris in > fifteenth century England? I was struck by the absence of recipes in > earlier English > sources, while Chiquart and Tallevent mention these pies, and give > fairly detailed instrctions for, at least, the fillings. > > One could argue the 15th century English recipe for a Grete Pye is an > evolution, or (and more likely) importation from the Continent." > > cant check references on England's sumptuary laws, but the great pie was a > fine way to get around restrictions on the number of dishes - conspicuous > consumption being very popular, especially for the merchant class > primarily affected by them. > > not entirely apropos, but possibly a survival of the towers and great> pyes;:) > Englands tradtional layered wedding cake was actually several > different cakes, one to be eaten fresh, longer lasting cakes to send to > absent friends, and the top a fruitcake to be shared on the first > anniversary- lots of ceremony involved n deconstructing it-I think Eliza > Acton had that recipe. > > gisele This argument may have some merit. I don't have a copy available, but if anyone can locate one, may I suggest: Baldwin, F.E., Sumptuary Legislation and Personal Regulation in England, John Hopkins Press, 1926. Bear Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:25:43 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns To: Cooks within the SCA As we continue to go round and round on coffyns I still think that Countess Alys was correct in pointing out that much can be learned by looking at Ivan Day's website. Here I'll provide the links-- http://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20recipe.htm http://www.historicfood.com/Banniet%20tort%20recipe.htm http://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20recipe2.htm http://www.historicfood.com/medlar%20tart%20recipe.htm http://www.historicfood.com/Setcustards.htm I suspect that it will take a major research effort to really come up with some answers and not just speculations on this topic and even then there's a good chance that the practice varied over time and place depending upon ingredients and use. I am sorry but I just don't have the time at the moment to do it. Johnnae >>> from 18 February 2005 Greetings! Ivan Day has some "fancy pies" on his website (historicfood.com). With one of them is a carved wooden mould to produce leaves which are placed as decoration on the lids. That would be a fast way for non-artistic types to produce quality decorations in quantity. He also shows some metal tins for making the decorative sides. I think these are from the mid-1600s and later. Alys Katharine <<< Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:15:05 -0400 From: Micheal Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns To: Cooks within the SCA My final thoughts on the matter no one elses, nor is anyone required to accept them. We do not have a solution on the question, simply opinions, as to how, and who made them. We do know they were used. This is what I used: Flour, lard, salt, egg, and water Blended flour and salt worked in the lard till it be came mealy added slightly higher then room temperature water to form a ball let it rest for 30 min. Rolled it flat cut a circle the size of what I thought was right. Cut strips of dough, egg washed the edges and worked them on edge up from the bottom till I reached four of my fingers high. Why because it looks right. Baked for 15-20 min at 375 to set dough. Mixed flour and water paste and coated the outside to fill in any gaps or separations worked from the bottom until smooth to the top inside and out. Filled with stuffer . I formed (of the same dough) a lid which fitted inside and crimped the edge to the sides while the paste was still damp. Put the whole thing into the oven at 375 and cooked until there was bubbles coming out the center. Pulled it out, egg washed the entire outside except the bottom, replaced in oven. Tested with a thermometer to check internal temp and removed when done. If I had the ability to send photos I would. looks like the painted raised pies I have seen in the national gallery. Ingredients 5 cups of stone ground Bread flour non raising 1 cup of spelt for looks 1.5 cups lard 3 teaspoons salt water to form ball added slowly 1 egg to wash. I am stubborn it took twelve tries before I finaly came up with the above recipe. Fully knowing it maybe right and it maybe wrong, but it worked for me. It is not easy get rid of 30 years of modernistic cooking styles. Some things you don`t even notice become habit. But I learned an appreciation for the person in the pastry shop from hampton court to the lowly town bakery I didn`t have before. Even though I despised the fact they didn`t write it down. Isn`t that what its all about in the end. Da Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 23:36:23 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffins was beets... To: Cooks within the SCA As regards coffyns-- Ivan Day has pictures of raised pies along with a description of various recipes. http://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20recipe.htm http://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20recipe2.htm Coffins need not be casket shaped. A coffin also was a basket. OED says *coffin* *1. * A basket; transl. L. /cophinus/, Gr. /ko/enticons/acute.giffinoj/. [So in OF. and many mod.F. dialects.] * *C. 1380* Wyclif /Serm./ Sel. Wks. I. 62 ?ei gedriden and filden twelve coffynes of relif of fyve barly loves; * *1382* Wyclif /2 Kings/ x. 7 Thei..slewen the seventy men, and putten the hevedis of hem in cofynes. * *1432-50* tr. /Higden/ (Rolls) I. 15 Gedrenge..the fragmentes of the cophinnes remanent. * *1542* Elyot /Dict./, /Tibin/, a baskette or coffyn made of wyckers or bull rushes, or barke of a tree: such oone was Moyses put in to. *. * Cookery.* * A mould of paste for a pie; the crust of a pie. Obs. * *C. 1420* /Liber Cocorum/ (1862) 41 Make a cofyne as to smalle pye. * *C. 1420* /Cookery Bk./ 45 Make fayre past of flowre & water, Sugre, & Safroun, & Salt; & ?an make fayre round cofyns ?er-of; * *1588* Shaks. /Tit. A./ v. ii. 189 Of the paste a coffen I will reare. * *A. 1654* Selden /Table-t./ (Arb.) 33 The Coffin of our Christmas Pies in shape long, is in imitation of the Cratch. It was also A paper case; spec. a receptacle made by twisting paper into a conical form or `cornet', to contain groceries, etc., or for use as a filter; still applied by printers to small paper bags of this shape to hold spare type, superfluous sorts, etc.*1577* Frampton /Joyful News/ (1580) 42 The smoke of this Hearbe, which they receaue at the mouth through certaine coffins, suche as the Grocers do vse to put in their Spices. There are various reasons why pies might have been round. Stability is one aspect. It's also probably far easier to raise a piecrust in a round shape. Johnnae Stephanie Ross wrote: > Also, I have another question. > Were there certain shapes for making cofyns/coffins, and did the shapes > change over the centuries? I can't imagine anything more wasteful of space > in an oven than a round pie tin. Weren't coffins square for the most part? > What could you use to imitate a coffin pan? I think an 8 X 8 pan would be > too deep, but I'm really not sure. > ~Aislinn~ Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 07:51:53 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pie Shapers: Was Speaking of Beets To: Cooks within the SCA The web sites that I gave in the posting on coffins also show several illustrations from Robert May and several raised pies-- See also the marvelous cutwork custard pies at http://www.historicfood.com/Setcustards.htm As regards coffyns-- Ivan Day has pictures of raised pies along with a description of various recipes. http://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20recipe.htm http://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20recipe2.htm Johnnae Terry Decker wrote: > One of the great skills of a baker is to be able to cut and form dough by > hand to produce decorations for breads and other bakegoods (I haven't > practiced enough to be anywhere near good). The little that I have found > makes me think molds were used where freehand decoration wasn't practical > (as with ginger bread) or where standardization was required (as > with the Eucharist). > > Using molds with a pie shaper or for a pie cover would probably work, but I > haven't seen anything to suggest it occurred. It's an interesting > question. > > Bear Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 21:57:19 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cofyns To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Here's a question that came up while I was helping to judge the Royal > Baker competition in Atlantia: > > When a recipe refers to a "Cofyn", does it ALWAYS mean an inedible pie > crust or is there room to assume/prove that it was an edible crust? > > Vitha > Lady Hrosvitha von Celle Coffin, in any of its various spellings, is usually a reference to a container; a basket, a box, a chest or a pie shell. There are some more obscure meanings, but let's stick with the container. The word in this usage appears from at least the early 15th Century into the 18th Century. In most references, they are talking about a pastry pie shell, but Hugh Plat makes reference to "coffins of white plate" in Delights for Ladies. Coffins range from a hard paste of flour and water to Elizabethean pie shells that are apparently meant to be eaten. According to the OED, there is a reference to coffins from "1420 Cookery Bk." that reads, "make fayre past of flowre & water, Sugre, & Safroun & Salt; & then make fayre, round cofyns thereof." (substituting "th" for the Middle English thorn symbol). In this case, the addition of sugar makes me think this coffin was meant to be eaten. From the 1420 date, the source is probably Harleian 279. IIRC, the earliest addition of fat to a pie shell recipe, which would improve the edibility, is mid-16th Century. Bear Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 23:01:49 -0500 From: Daniel Myers Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cofyns To: Cooks within the SCA On Mar 4, 2007, at 10:01 PM, Kerri Martinsen wrote: > Here's a question that came up while I was helping to judge the > Royal Baker competition in Atlantia: > > When a recipe refers to a "Cofyn", does it ALWAYS mean an inedible > pie crust or is there room to assume/prove that it was an edible crust? There is some clear proof that raised coffins weren't always inedible - note the marked text. From "The Good Huswifes Handmaide for the Kitchen", Stuart Peachey (ed.) - England, c. 1588 To make Paste, and to raise Coffins. Take fine flower, and lay it on a boord, and take a certaine of yolkes of Egges as your quantitie of flower is, then take a certaine of Butter and water, and boil them together, but ye must take heed ye put not too many yolks of Egges, for if you doe, ***it will make it drie and not pleasant in eating***: and yee must take heed ye put not in too much Butter for if you doe, it will make it so fine and short that you cannot raise. And this paste is good to raise all manner of Coffins: Likewise if ye bake Venison, bake it in the paste above named. I've got some notes collected about pie crusts online, but not too many conclusions yet. http://www.medievalcookery.com/notes/piecrust.shtm - Doc Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 11:23:40 -0400 From: Cindy Renfrow Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Help!!! Camp Ovens To: Cooks within the SCA Regarding pie shells able to resist transportation? Elizabeth, have a look at: http://www.thousandeggs.com/gretepye.html The dough I used is far heavier and stiffer than ordinary pie dough and will hold up well to moulding around a cookie tin. Hint: wrap the upside-down tin with greased foil before applying the dough to the ?outside* of the tin, and don't press it down too tightly. You will be baking your "castle" upside down. Heavy cardboard mailing tubes work fairly well if you want to make castle towers (if you don't mind the smell of cooking cardboard). After baking, let the dough cool completely before carefully unmolding it. Then pop it back in a very slow oven with the door cracked open a bit to dry the shell out completely. This may take several on/off cycles. During this final phase, you may also glaze and decorate your castle walls with seeds, egg yolks, etc. The filling can be heated & the whole thing assembled on site at the last minute. A chef's propane torch can be used to melt the final sugar glaze, but be careful. Regarding your oven dilemma, now is not the time to experiment! Find a friend with a working oven or chat up your local pizzeria owner. Also, if you haven't seen it already, http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD/illusion-fds-msg.html is quite interesting. Cindy Renfrow Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 21:13:42 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn Paste To: Cooks within the SCA Hot Water Crust for Raised Pie Pastry 1 pound plain flour 450 grams 1/4 ounce salt 4 ounces lard 100 grams one half pint hot water 300 ml Sift the flour and salt into a warm bowl and make a well in the centre. Boil the lard in the water until melted and pour into the flour; mix quickly with a wooden spoon. Knead the dough by hand while the mixture is still warm, until all the flour is worked in and the pastry is smooth and free from cracks. Use while still warm and before it hardens. It cannot be stored at this stage although it may be stored after moulding to the desired shape. Lizzie Boyd, ed. British Cookery. 1976, 1984. page 96. The measurements are the British measures used in the 1970's. The gram equivalents come from the suggested conversion chart in the book. This makes a great strong crust for standing pastry. If you have a microwave, you can heat the lard and water in the microwave until it is super hot. The lard will melt and sit on the surface. This is one of instances where shaking the measuring cup can in fact make the liquid suddenly explode or release steam. Be warned. Johnnae Lilinah wrote: <<< We've had some lively conversations about the dough needed to make an inedible, free-standing coffyn in the past few months. People have mentioned ingredients - flour - lard and/or water - salt - sometimes eggs. But i don't recall seeing one with some idea of proportions. I know that flours vary in the amount of water they'll absorb, so i'm not asking for an exact recipe. But i was hoping to get something with more details than just a list of potential ingredients. I realize this would be based on the experience of cooks on the list and not an actual historical recipe. >>> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 14:38:47 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn pan? To: "Cooks within the SCA" <<< But, Gunthar, weren't Medieval coffyns round? I sort of got that impression from most of the existing illustrations, but I may be wrong ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Meisterin Katarina Helene von Sch?nborn, OL >>> The term coffyn has it's origins in a Greek word meaning "basket" was transferred into Latin then came into English via Old French, where it meant "little basket," "case," etc. Thus the shape may be immaterial to the definition as the coffin was created to meet the needs of the contents. The idea in the SCA that the coffyn should be rectangular may be an artifact of the modern usage of the word, a box to hold a body. This usage first occurs in English around 1525 (although the same usage in French dates from around 1330). In the sense that coffyn is used on this list, it is: (1) a shaped mold of dough to hold a pie, (2) a pie crust, and (3) a dish to hold a pie. I haven't seen much about the size and shape of hand raised coffyns, but for pies shaped in a pan I suspect that many of the baking dishes were terracotta or ceramic and that circular baking dishes are easier to produce than square or rectangular ones. Bear Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:05:28 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn pan? To: Cooks within the SCA I don't know that all coffyns would have been baked in forms or pans. If one uses a sturdy pastry made with lard and enough flour, you can raise pastry case that is strong enough to survive without the need of a pan. (This is pastry as container.) Take a look at the Tudor Cooks Blog-- there's a video there plus pictures http://tudorcook.blogspot.com/2007/12/get-back-in-that-kitchen.html Also you might run through Ivan Day's photos and recipes for his various pies and pastries. http://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20recipe.htm He has listed a new course in pastry and pie making. http://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20Making%20Course.htm Johnnae Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:01:20 -0800 (PST) From: Katheline van Weye Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn pan? To: Cooks within the SCA > Also you might run through Ivan Day's photos and recipes for his > various pies and pastries. > > http://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20recipe.htm Hee! I was there on Boxing Day (which he talks about in the linked blog) with my husband and two SCA foodie friends and spoke to the Hampton Court - Tudor Kitchen people at length. Their pies are not baked in a pan. They use a thick, tough dough as the container for the filling and they do not eat the dough but just toss it away (although likely in period it would've gone to the animals or such). I have pictures of these pies. They also talked about items that were baked in pottery and how the pottery wasn't reused. Instead the pottery was broken to get at the food inside. The pottery was just a temporary form. Katheline van Weye Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 06:53:55 -0500 From: Nancy Kiel Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn pan? To: Cooks within the SCA I always assumed these types of pies were made without pans, using a thick stand-alone crust (sometimes made with rye flour) that was not intended to be eaten. That way the cook could make any shape he wanted, such as a fish or a lobster. Robert May, although post period (1685), has a number of pie designs throughout his cookbook that would have to be made free-hand. Nancy Kiel Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:17:50 -0500 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn pan? To: Cooks within the SCA On Jan 16, 2008, at 6:53 AM, Nancy Kiel wrote: > I always assumed these types of pies were made without pans, using a > thick stand-alone crust (sometimes made with rye flour) that was not > intended to be eaten. That way the cook could make any shape he > wanted, such as a fish or a lobster. Robert May, although post > period (1685), has a number of pie designs throughout his cookbook > that would have to be made free-hand. One problem to be dealt with is the fact that it's popular in the SCA to assume that free-standing pies and tarts are made with what amounts to a modern-ish hot-water-and-lard, or equivalent, pastry, when the relatively few pie crust recipes available don't really establish this as a given. It'd be interesting to use malleability versus strength (the ability, say, to hold a filling or a liquid without leaking, breaking, or collapsing before, during, or after baking) as a test for various dough types, such as rye not-very-short-crust, wheat crust with cream, a hot-water dough of wheat, wheat and egg yolks, etc. Of course, one thing to look for would be the ability to tolerate, and hold through baking, molded or otherwise fine detail. Over this past weekend I had occasion to make a hot-water-and-lard dough (steak, mushroom, and egg, no kidneys on hand I wasn't using), and in spite of using AP flour, boiling liquid, lard, _and_ letting it rest before baking, I was surprised to note the amount of what one might call glutinous distortion of my design in baking. Not that it was a big deal; it wasn't the Palace at Versailles or anything, just some hand-fluting and a few cutouts to mark the location of some marrowbones inside. But after having taken all those steps to prevent it from changing shape while baking, I was a little surprised. It'd be interesting to see which of our available pie dough recipes works the best, and under which conditions. Adamantius Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:20:25 -0500 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn pan? To: Cooks within the SCA On Jan 17, 2008, at 6:50 AM, Nancy Kiel wrote: > Can you give some examples of free-standing pies made with a crust > of something other than hot-water-and-lard? Several examples of something other than hot-water-and-lard? No. Maybe a couple: I believe there's a reference to a free-standing tart in Ein Buoch Von Guter Spise whose crust is made with flour and egg yolks only (and that basic formula is repeated in numerous other sources, although not in detail, unfortunately). I vaguely recall a reference to a short dough made with chopped lardons (but not hot water, IIRC); this would be more like an English suet crust for steamed puddings; I think that's included in some edition of Le Viandier (Pichon edition???). Unfortunately, it seems like most medieval pie recipes don't really talk about the pastry, other than to tell you to make one, and then fill it with X. Later in the SCA period, there's a piecrust recipe in, I think, A Newe Proper Boke of Cookery, and I don't recall details and don't have it handy, but I don't recall it being made with any hot liquid. I think it may call for butter and yolks. I think Digby's cheesecake crust calls for yolks and cream. Gervase Markham is the only one I can think of that routinely calls for hot water to be used, along with butter or sweet seame, basically the fat skimmed off the top of boiled, fatty meats, to make stiff rye crusts for pies to be kept a long time. He also talks about crust height, so we have to assume falling and cracking crusts would be a concern, so that suggests at least a good chance we're talking about a free-standing pastry shell. Now, that is quite sketchy at best, but how many examples can you think of that actually call for lard (or even other fat) melted with boiling water and added, while still hot, to flour, which is what I'd define as a hot-water crust? Adamantius Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:54:48 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn pan? To: "Cooks within the SCA" "Twelve voyders, a custard coffin." (1580, as quoted in Wadley, Bristol Wills, 1886). Shakespere, The Taming of the Shrew iv iii 82 (1596) "PETRUCHIO: Why, thou say'st true; it is a paltry cap, A custard-coffin, a bauble, a silken pie: I love thee well, in that thou likest it not." "Coffins of whyte plate." (1602, Plat, Delightes for Ladies). To be fair, Shakespere refers to hand raised coffins in Titus Adronicus (1588), so both definitions were used in Elizabethean England. Bear =========== Can you give some examples of the late 16th century usage? Nancy Kiel > In general, I would agree with you, but given a 1000+ year span, word usage > changes. In the 14th Century these would likely be the hand raised mold of > dough, by the late 16th Century, the dish to hold the pie and possibly crust > is included. Modernly, these usages are considered archaic and obsolete. > > Bear Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:03:12 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn pan? To: "Cooks within the SCA" A hand raised pie crust isn't much of a display of wealth. It's far less expensive than bread trenchers and cheaper than breaking crockery. I would think a functional decoration might be more to the point. While it wouldn't be eaten at table, the pie shell would probably be accounted for by voiding it for dispensing by the almoner. Bear Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:21:56 -0500 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn pan? To: Cooks within the SCA On Jan 16, 2008, at 8:39 PM, Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote: >> free-standing pies and tarts are made with what amounts >> to a modern-ish hot-water-and-lard, or equivalent, pastry, > > Waitaminute... We have the eternal questions about bread bowls... it > shouldn't be *bread* bowls, it should be *pastry* bowls! Cook > something in a coffyn, take off the upper crust... voil?! Well... yeah. What eternal question about bread bowls? Around here in my local group many people tend to think they're just a little bit silly... But sure. Pastry coffins are used for other things besides what we think of as pies and tarts. The Romans baked hams in them (and then removed them). There are some late-period candy recipes that call for one stage or another to be placed in a coffin, or some other box that can be sealed, and "cured" in a warm oven or near the hearth. I've seen stew-like pottages served in pie shells with a lid, and I've also made free-standing pies with a rock-hard side and bottom crust as a container, and distinctly edible puff pastry on top, which, if I say so myself, is pretty spectacular-looking. Looks like a golden hat-box full of food... Adamantius Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:39:33 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Flour Recommendation? To: , "Cooks within the SCA" To quote Ivan Day, "Pies of this kind were constructed from a 'standing crust' made by mixing boiling water and butter into the flour. Once cold, this stiff gluten-rich pastry was ideal for raising these complex structures, though it did not make for particularly good eating." (Eat, Drink & Be Merry) From the above quote, all purpose or high gluten bread flour would be the choice, since the plan is to make a high gluten, not so flakey crust. A soft modern pastry crust (IIRC) is roughly 3 parts flour, 2 parts fat, and 1 part water by weight, so 2:1 or 3:1 might be a good ratio of flour to butter. To form the requisite gluten, you'll probably want to work this like a bread dough rather than a pastry dough. Bear > Greetings! It was pointed out that perhaps the somewhat floppy dough that > resulted (in my attempt at a hand-raised tart case) could have been the > type of flour. I used what was in the cannister - all purpose flour. I > want to try the dough again. It will be twice as much flour by weight as > butter. Water is the only liquid. What type of flour might be better for > a sturdier dough? Bread flour? Pastry flour? Something else? > > Alys Katharine, going from sugar to flour Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:52:59 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Flour Recommendation? To: , "Cooks within the SCA" Of the Mixture of Paste. Your course Wheat-crust should be kneaded with hot water, or Mutton broth, and a good store of butter, and the paste made stiffe and tough, because that Coffin must be deep. Gervase Markham, The English Hous-wife To make Paste another Way. Take butter and ale, and seeth them together: then take your flower, and put there into three egs, sugar, saffron and salt. The Good Huswives Handmaid From these the chosen fat is butter, but it is likely to be melted into the liquor for the pastry dough. It also suggests to me that it might be worth trying this with a whole wheat flour that has been sifted to remove the bran. And, IIRC, there is a recipe for a rye pastry dough as part of a recipe in Sabina Welser. If your dough is soft, then you may have too much fat in the mix or you haven't worked it hard enough to properly form the gluten. Bear > It might be. I'll be interested in hearing the > thoughts of others on this, since I also use all > purpose flour and have been having the same issues > with pie crusts. > > However, I also suspect that it may be the choice of > fat. Using the same methods, I find that dough made > with butter is much softer and delicate than dough > made with Crisco. > > My suspicion is that we both need to use lard - and > since I'll be making a pie tonight, I'll try it out > just to see what (if any) difference it makes. > > - Doc Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:19:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Doc Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Flour Recommendation? To: Cooks within the SCA --- Terry Decker wrote: > If your dough is soft, then you may have too much > fat in the mix or you > haven't worked it hard enough to properly form the gluten. I used the same quantities of fat and flour, and worked them both the same amount - dough using butter is softer than that using Crisco. As for the kind of fat used in period, I have found references to fats other than butter being used as well. Source [Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin, V. Armstrong (trans.)]: 61 To make a pastry dough for all shaped pies. Take flour, the best that you can get, about two handfuls, depending on how large or small you would have the pie. Put it on the table and with a knife stir in two eggs and a little salt. Put water in a small pan and a piece of fat the size of two good eggs, let it all dissolve together and boil. Afterwards pour it on the flour on the table and make a strong dough and work it well, however you feel is right. If it is summer, one must take meat broth instead of water and in the place of the fat the skimmings from the broth.... (Germany, c. 1553) Many of the recipes state to use fat, but do not specify what kind. -=-=- > To quote Ivan Day, "Pies of this kind were constructed from a 'standing > crust' made by mixing boiling water and butter into the flour. Once > cold, this stiff gluten-rich pastry was ideal for raising these complex > structures, though it did not make for particularly good eating." > (Eat, Drink & Be Merry) What source does he provide for this? This sounds like the traditional English method for making pie crusts, but isn't the only method I have seen in the primary sources (e.g. rubbing or cutting the fat into the flour). Further, one recipe for pie crusts in "The Good Huswifes Handmaide for the Kitchen" specifically warns the cook not to use to many egg yolks as it will "make it drie and not pleasant in eating" which contradicts the common assertion that standing crusts were *always* inedible (I will grant that they may have sometimes been inedible). - Doc Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:49:23 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Flour Recommendation? To: , "Cooks within the SCA" > --- Terry Decker wrote: >> If your dough is soft, then you may have too much >> fat in the mix or you >> haven't worked it hard enough to properly form the gluten. > > I used the same quantities of fat and flour, and > worked them both the same amount - dough using butter > is softer than that using Crisco. I was speaking in the general case rather than as a differentiation between fats. Different fats will give varying results, but the more of any fat you add, the softer the dough in general. >> To quote Ivan Day, "Pies of this kind were constructed from a 'standing >> crust' made by mixing boiling water and butter into the flour. Once >> cold, this stiff gluten-rich pastry was ideal for raising these complex >> structures, though it did not make for particularly good eating." >> (Eat, Drink & Be Merry) > > What source does he provide for this? This sounds > like the traditional English method for making pie > crusts, but isn't the only method I have seen in the > primary sources (e.g. rubbing or cutting the fat into > the flour). I gather he has quite a bit of practical experience at raising standing crusts and has written on the process. In this case, the information is taken from a recreation of the Duke of Newcastle's feast from the latter half of the 17th Century as given in Patrick Lamb's Royal Cookery, with pie designs taken from Robert May Accomplisht Cook and Edward Kidder Receipts in Pastry and Cookery. All three sources are well outside SCA period but probably of use in considering this subject. > Further, one recipe for pie crusts in "The Good > Huswifes Handmaide for the Kitchen" specifically warns > the cook not to use to many egg yolks as it will "make > it drie and not pleasant in eating" which contradicts > the common assertion that standing crusts were > *always* inedible (I will grant that they may have > sometimes been inedible). > > - Doc But is it a "standing crust?" I've encountered a few recipes that make interesting and edible crusts, but really need a tart pan to hold their shape. I suspect the "inedibilty" may be more likely for the hard, hand-raised coffin, than some of the softer pie shells. It might be interesting to assemble all of the pastry recipes and try to categorize them by the ratios of their ingredients, but that is work for the future. Bear Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:21:45 -0400 From: "Elise Fleming" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Flour Recommendation? To: "Terry Decker" , "Cooks within the SCA" Bear responded to my query: > To quote Ivan Day, "Pies of this kind were constructed from a 'standing > crust' made by mixing boiling water and butter into the flour. Once cold, > this stiff gluten-rich pastry was ideal for raising these complex > structures, though it did not make for particularly good > eating." (Eat, Drink & Be Merry) I had asked Robin about the texture of the tart's crust and he had said it was edible, not just a container as Ivan is referring to, which is what I was trying to go for. I can see on the Hampton Court blog's video that at least for his chewitts, the dough is a little on the "floppy" side since when he raises the sides he smooshes the top rim into a narrower opening than would result if he just raised the side and fluted it. My gripe about my dough is that it was too floppy to lift onto a wide knife as the fluting video shows. The completed tart with lid actually did keep its shape pretty well when baking but I certainly wasn't able to lift it and lay it on the dough for the lid to use as a template the way Robin does it in the video. > From the above quote, all purpose or high gluten bread flour would be the > choice, since the plan is to make a high gluten, not so flakey crust. A > soft modern pastry crust (IIRC) is roughly 3 parts flour, 2 parts fat, and > 1 part water by weight, so 2:1 or 3:1 might be a good ratio of flour to > butter. To form the requisite gluten, you'll probably want to work > this like a bread dough rather than a pastry dough. Thanks for the numbers. I've done the 2:1 and thought that I'd do the same the next time, only adding some extra flour so that it is a bit more than 2 parts flour to one part butter. Sheesh! Where are apprenticeships at Hampton Court when you want them??!? Alys Katharine Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:13:36 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Flour Recommendation? To: alysk at ix.netcom.com, Cooks within the SCA Ivan's posted recipe from Mrs Marshall is Raised Pie Paste Take one pound of fine flour and rub into it a quarter of a pound of butter, a pinch of salt, one whole egg, then mix it with cold water into a stiff paste and use. From *Agnes B. Marshall* /Cookery Book/ (London: 1880) So it's 4 flour to one part butter. That's the tested recipe that he uses for his raised and molded pies, according to the website. Don't know what recipe you are using but the Proper Newe Booke of Cokerye from 1545 writes: /*Take fyne floure and a cursey of fayre water and a dysche of swete butter and a lyttel saffron, and the yolckes of two egges and make it thynne and as tender as ye maye.*/ It doesn't specify 2 to one so maybe you might increase the flour to butter ratios. King Arthur has a nice whole wheat pastry flour. Johnna Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:34:51 -0400 From: "Barbara Benson" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Coffin Construction To: "Cooks List" I know that I have been pestering the list a goodly bit in the past couple of weeks - this feast is driving me nuts! I don't know why this one is proving to be so challenging. My newest obstacle is coffin construction. I want to redact this recipe this weekend: Anon Tuscan Translated by Vittoria A cup of chicken or other fowl. [125] Cut chickens or fowl into pieces; dilute flour with hot water, and make it very stiff: then make the shape of a cup from said dough and put in it the aforementioned chickens with whole green grapes, saffron and spices, and a bit of cold water, and close it on top with dough, and put it in the oven or rather on top of pans; and on the top of the cup put a big piece of lard. And I wanted to take advantage of the experience of anyone on this list who has attempted coffins before. What formula did you use for the coffin dough (I say formula because recipe implies that someone will eat it)? Any tips on raising the durn things? Pitfalls? Also, one of the major tools I have on the site is a convection oven - do you think that since the coffin is sealed it would be fine in there or can anyone foresee problems with a convection oven. From the recipe it seems that the crust is flour + water. Any thoughts on proportions? -- Serena da Riva Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 13:11:34 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffin Construction To: Cooks within the SCA Barbara Benson wrote: > From the recipe it seems that the crust is flour + water. Any thoughts > on proportions? I look forward to your replies. > Grazie, Serena da Riva I still recommend what I did in January />/ If one uses a sturdy pastry made with lard and enough flour, you can raise />/ pastry case that is strong enough to survive without the need of a pan. />/ (This is pastry as container.) />/ />/ Take a look at the Tudor Cooks Blog-- there's a video there plus pictures />/ http://tudorcook.blogspot.com/2007/12/get-back-in-that-kitchen.html />/ />/ Also you might run through Ivan Day's photos and recipes for his various />/ pies and pastries. />/ http://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20recipe.htm />/ />/ He has listed a new course in pastry and pie making. />/ http://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20Making%20Course.htm />/ />/ Johnnae Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 15:38:07 -0400 From: "Elise Fleming" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffin Construction (Pastry!) To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" Greetings! Regarding raising a flour and water coffyn, you might want to look at the "molds" at http://sca.4th.com/photos/events/2006/alys-england?page=9 and scroll down to "alys2006-387". There are two wooden, cylindrical molds that Ivan Day uses for raising pies whose crusts aren't to be eaten. I got to thinking that if you wanted to make one of these dough "coffyns", you could mold your dough over a coffee tin or similiar-sized item. Johnnae and I, with two other women, attended one of Ivan's classes where we made up the flour and water dough and pressed the dough over the molds. Johnnae, do you recall the exact procedure? Seems to me we put the mold in the center of a mass of dough and then, with our hands, pushed the dough upwards to the top of the mold. I think we rolled out the "lid", wetted it with water, and then sealed it to the outer part of the dough coffyn after the contents had been added. (We didn't have time for real food in the coffyn so I suggested using a wadded up towel, which we did!) The coffyn was moderately thick since it didn't have to be edible. Alys K. Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 17:06:06 -0400 From: "Elise Fleming" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffin Construction (Pastry!) To: "Barbara Benson" , "Cooks within the SCA" > Hmmm, forming it on the outside of a mold had not occurred to me, an > interesting idea. So do you form it on the mold and then let it dry > for awhile before you remove the mold? I don't think we did. If you look at the photo I listed, the coffyn that we made is in front of the two molds. We didn't intend to bake it, but from other experience, I would recommend sliding the empty coffyn on your baking sheet before filling it. The filling would make it much heavier and it would be harder to move to the baking sheet. > I had been assuming that this would not be a edible container from the > get go. That is where my head is at. I like the idea of spring form > pans, but they are pretty darn expensive and I don't know if I can > swing enough for a full feast. The advantage of making an inedible container is that you don't need any baking pans. And, the recipe you cited certainly should be an inedible paste - just flour and water. Alys, getting hungry now Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 20:17:51 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffin Construction (Pastry!) To: alysk at ix.netcom.com, Cooks within the SCA It's put in the middle of a mass of dough and raised on the outside. It's the way that they make the raised pork pies like those made in Melton Mowbray. picture here of the wooden mold-- http://www.porkpie.co.uk/ ourheritage.asp If you browse down the page-- you'll come to drawings of how they are made under: How to make the authentic Melton Mowbray Pork Pie... Does that help explain it? (Sutton Press actually put out a great book on the history of these pies which I bought years ago. Lots of pictures. *The History of the Melton Mowbray Pork Pie (The Best of British in Old Photographs) (Paperback)*) oh jeez used copies are $47 now.) These hot water pastries with lard set up fairly fast, so if made thick enough they stand on their own. Johnnae Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 06:52:23 -0400 From: Nancy Kiel Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffin Construction To: Cooks within the SCA I'm not certain that fat was that expensive in period; the big cost in making coffin (inedible) pastes seems to me to be in the flour and the actual time & skill for production. Mrs. Beeton, of Victorian cookbook fame, provides ratios---1 lb of flour and 1 1/2 oz each of butter and lard---so for 5 lbs of flour you only need one lb of fat. This kind of pastry is certainly not for everyday, though. Nancy Kiel Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:52:39 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn Paste To: "Cooks within the SCA" If I were trying to make a free-standing coffin, I would probably try two recipes. The first would be flour and water at 3:1 by weight, adding flour about an ounce at a time until it reached the consistency I thought would work. 2:1 gives a semi-liquid or semi-solid starter consistency. 3:1 gives a soft dough. If I were using a fat in the mix, I would start with a standard 3:2:1, flour, fat and liquid, again adding flour an ounce at a time. Using simply flour and fat, 3:2. Unless it is in very large quantity, salt is immaterial. Large quantities of salt produce a variant of putty, which can be prepared by feel. This is an experiment I would not want to repeat outside of Kindergarten. Eggs are both liquid and fat. I would estimate a large egg as 1 ounce of fat and two to three ounces of liquid. Bear <<< We've had some lively conversations about the dough needed to make an inedible, free-standing coffyn in the past few months. People have mentioned ingredients - flour - lard and/or water - salt - sometimes eggs. But i don't recall seeing one with some idea of proportions. I know that flours vary in the amount of water they'll absorb, so i'm not asking for an exact recipe. But i was hoping to get something with more details than just a list of potential ingredients. -- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita >>> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:21:18 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Best bulk pie crust recipe? To: "Cooks within the SCA" <<< I am embarrassed to admit I have never made pie crusts from scratch for a feast. >>> Having done it, I can assure you it is no great virtue and a lot of work. To save time I generally use purchased pie shells. I purchase ones made with vegetable shortening rather than lard as there are a number of vegetarians running around and at least one of the people I feed on occasion has an allergy to pork and pork products. <<< I am making chard and ricotta pies for a feast coming up, and I'd like to do covered coffin-style pies but I'm afraid a period hard crust would be seen as just "bad pie crust" around here. I would prefer not to use vegetable shortening (yuck), but butter would be too expensive and lard means even fewer vegetarian dishes. Oil pastry doesn't have enough stability for a coffin-style pie. What is your favorite bulk pastry recipe? Have you made hard pastry cases for feasts? How were they received? Madhavi >>> You might just let people know that the coffin shell is not meant to be eaten. Or you might try the Elizabethean pie shell recipe that follows. I would recommend blind baking the pie shell and cooking the filling seperately. I've used it successfully for sweet spinach torts/ Bear Elizabethan Pie Shell Another Way. Then make your paste with butter, fair water, and the yolkes of two or three Egs, and so soone as ye have driven your paste, cast on a little sugar, and rosewater, and harden your paste afore in the oven. Then take it out, and fill it, and set it in againe. The Good Huswifes Handmaid, 1588 1/2 cup butter 1 1/2 cup flour (approx.) 2 egg yolks 1/3 cup water sugar In a bowl, cut butter into 1 cup of flour, until it crumbs. Add egg yolks and cut into mixture. Add additional flour a Tablespoon at a time until the moisture is absorbed into the crumbs. Add the water and cut into mixture. Add additional flour a Tablespoon at a time, as needed, until the moisture is absorbed into the crumbs. Push the crumbs into a ball, working the dough gently for a few seconds to smooth it. Let the dough rest for 15 to 30 minutes. Roll out the crusts on a floured surface and transfer to pie pans. The recipe makes two 8 or 9 inch pie shells. Prick the pie shells to let air vent from between the shell and the pan. Sprinkle sugar on the shell before baking. I used about a scant 1/4 teaspoon granulated white. If the shell is to be filled after baking, bake the shell at 325 degrees F for about 35 minutes or until very light brown. If the filling needs to be baked in the shell, bake the shell at 325 degrees F for about 10 minutes, remove, fill and continue baking as per the filling recipe. Notes: This recipe makes very light, crisp pie shells. If the dough is worked minimally, the result is flaky and very similar to modern pie shells. The more the dough is worked, the more the pie shell resembles a crisp or cracker. By taste, salt is noticeably missing from the crust, but the sugar modifies the taste. A fine ground white sugar or a brown sugar might present interesting differences. As written, this recipe appears to be for a dessert shell, but it might also represent an interesting contrast for a savory filling. Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:04:31 -0500 From: Gretchen Beck Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Best bulk pie crust recipe? To: Cooks within the SCA I've used this shell with savory filling (herb tarts) -- it's quite nice and fairly sturdy. I have a friend who took the leftover dough home and made empanadas (her mother still refers to me as "the girl who made the good dough") toodles, margaret <<< Elizabethan Pie Shell Another Way. Then make your paste with butter, fair water, and the yolkes of two or three Egs, and so soone as ye have driven your paste, cast on a little sugar, and rosewater, and harden your paste afore in the oven. Then take it out, and fill it, and set it in againe. The Good Huswifes Handmaid, 1588 1/2 cup butter 1 1/2 cup flour (approx.) 2 egg yolks 1/3 cup water sugar >>> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 07:43:59 +1300 From: Antonia Calvo Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Best bulk pie crust recipe? To: Cooks within the SCA jimandandi at cox.net wrote: <<< I am embarrassed to admit I have never made pie crusts from scratch for a feast. >>> That's ten lashes with a gluten-free noodle for you! <<< I would prefer not to use vegetable shortening (yuck), but butter would be too expensive and lard means even fewer vegetarian dishes. Oil pastry doesn't have enough stability for a coffin-style pie. What is your favorite bulk pastry recipe? Have you made hard pastry cases for feasts? How were they received? >>> I usually make hot water pastry. It's not quite as tender as cold-water pastry, but if you really want free-standing crusts, you need the stiffest, least-short version. Keep in mind that a coffin isn't really meant to be eaten. Anyway, recipes: Hot Water Crust 500g flour 150g butter, shortening, lard, or other hard fat, or a combination of butter and one other. 200ml water pinch of salt Put the flour in bowl with the salt. In a small pot, heat the water and fat 'til it just boils and all the fat is melted. Pour the hot liquid into the flour and mix together. Knead a little 'til you have a smooth ball. For a richer crust, use the following amounts 300g fat 150ml water For a stiff version that will make standing crusts 90g fat 300 ml water The first two versions are quite edible, although not as tender as cold-water pastry. The final version is a bit marginal for palatability, but is very sturdy. I don't do hard cases very often-- it's a bit tricky, and I'm not very good at it, so for the sake of expediency, I usually use pie pans. -- Antonia di Benedetto Calvo Edited by Mark S. Harris dough-contain-msg Page 37 of 37