dough-contain-msg - 9/6/09 ਀ഊDough as the baking container. Free-standing pie crusts. Coffins, Coffyns. ਀ഊNOTE: See also the files: pies-msg, meat-pies-msg, tarts-msg, pastries-msg, fish-pies-msg, flour-msg, ovens-msg, cooking-oils-msg, eggs-msg. ਀ഊ************************************************************************ ਀一伀吀䤀䌀䔀 ⴀഊ ਀吀栀椀猀 昀椀氀攀 椀猀 愀 挀漀氀氀攀挀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 瘀愀爀椀漀甀猀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀 栀愀瘀椀渀最 愀 挀漀洀洀漀渀 琀栀攀洀攀 琀栀愀琀 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 挀漀氀氀攀挀琀攀搀 昀爀漀洀 洀礀 爀攀愀搀椀渀最 漀昀 琀栀攀 瘀愀爀椀漀甀猀 挀漀洀瀀甀琀攀爀 渀攀琀眀漀爀欀猀⸀ 匀漀洀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀 搀愀琀攀 戀愀挀欀 琀漀 ㄀㤀㠀㤀Ⰰ 猀漀洀攀 洀愀礀 戀攀 愀猀 爀攀挀攀渀琀 愀猀 礀攀猀琀攀爀搀愀礀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀椀猀 昀椀氀攀 椀猀 瀀愀爀琀 漀昀 愀 挀漀氀氀攀挀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 昀椀氀攀猀 挀愀氀氀攀搀 匀琀攀昀愀渀✀猀 䘀氀漀爀椀氀攀最椀甀洀⸀ 吀栀攀猀攀 昀椀氀攀猀 愀爀攀 愀瘀愀椀氀愀戀氀攀 漀渀 琀栀攀 䤀渀琀攀爀渀攀琀 愀琀㨀 栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀眀眀眀⸀昀氀漀爀椀氀攀最椀甀洀⸀漀爀最ഊ ਀䤀 栀愀瘀攀 搀漀渀攀 愀 氀椀洀椀琀攀搀 愀洀漀甀渀琀 漀昀 攀搀椀琀椀渀最⸀ 䴀攀猀猀愀最攀猀 栀愀瘀椀渀最 琀漀 搀漀 眀椀琀栀 猀攀瀀愀爀愀琀攀 琀漀瀀椀挀猀 眀攀爀攀 猀漀洀攀琀椀洀攀猀 猀瀀氀椀琀 椀渀琀漀 搀椀昀昀攀爀攀渀琀 昀椀氀攀猀 愀渀搀 猀漀洀攀琀椀洀攀猀 攀砀琀爀愀渀攀漀甀猀 椀渀昀漀爀洀愀琀椀漀渀 眀愀猀 爀攀洀漀瘀攀搀⸀ 䘀漀爀 椀渀猀琀愀渀挀攀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀 䤀䐀猀 眀攀爀攀 爀攀洀漀瘀攀搀 琀漀 猀愀瘀攀 猀瀀愀挀攀 愀渀搀 爀攀洀漀瘀攀 挀氀甀琀琀攀爀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀攀 挀漀洀洀攀渀琀猀 洀愀搀攀 椀渀 琀栀攀猀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀 愀爀攀 渀漀琀 渀攀挀攀猀猀愀爀椀氀礀 洀礀 瘀椀攀眀瀀漀椀渀琀猀⸀ 䤀 洀愀欀攀 渀漀 挀氀愀椀洀猀 愀猀 琀漀 琀栀攀 愀挀挀甀爀愀挀礀 漀昀 琀栀攀 椀渀昀漀爀洀愀琀椀漀渀 最椀瘀攀渀 戀礀 琀栀攀 椀渀搀椀瘀椀搀甀愀氀 愀甀琀栀漀爀猀⸀ഊ ਀倀氀攀愀猀攀 爀攀猀瀀攀挀琀 琀栀攀 琀椀洀攀 愀渀搀 攀昀昀漀爀琀猀 漀昀 琀栀漀猀攀 眀栀漀 栀愀瘀攀 眀爀椀琀琀攀渀 琀栀攀猀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀⸀ 吀栀攀 挀漀瀀礀爀椀最栀琀 猀琀愀琀甀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀猀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀 椀猀 甀渀挀氀攀愀爀 愀琀 琀栀椀猀 琀椀洀攀⸀ 䤀昀 椀渀昀漀爀洀愀琀椀漀渀 椀猀 瀀甀戀氀椀猀栀攀搀 昀爀漀洀 琀栀攀猀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀Ⰰ 瀀氀攀愀猀攀 最椀瘀攀 挀爀攀搀椀琀 琀漀 琀栀攀 漀爀椀最椀渀愀琀漀爀⠀猀⤀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀愀渀欀 礀漀甀Ⰰഊ Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous ਀                                          匀琀攀昀愀渀 愀琀 昀氀漀爀椀氀攀最椀甀洀⸀漀爀最ഊ************************************************************************ ਀ഊDate: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:44:34 -0500 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀䈀攀琀栀愀渀礀 倀甀戀氀椀挀 䰀椀戀爀愀爀礀∀ 㰀戀攀琀瀀甀氀椀戀 愀琀 瀀琀搀瀀爀漀氀漀最⸀渀攀琀㸀ഊSubject: Re: SC - Traps? ਀ഊActually, the crust in which the meat pies were often cooked could be ਀爀攀昀攀爀爀攀搀 琀漀 愀猀 䌀漀昀昀椀渀猀 椀渀 洀愀渀礀 䔀渀最氀椀猀栀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀猀⸀ 匀漀洀攀琀椀洀攀猀 漀渀攀 洀椀最栀琀ഊreceive the instruction to "raise" the coffin. Now, if one were deceased, ਀琀栀愀琀 洀椀最栀琀 瀀爀漀瘀攀 愀渀 椀渀琀攀爀攀猀琀椀渀最 昀攀愀琀⸀ 䠀漀眀攀瘀攀爀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 挀漀昀昀椀渀 眀愀猀 愀挀琀甀愀氀氀礀 愀ഊbox-shape (coffin being a generic word for Box in Middle English, IIRC), and ਀琀栀攀 挀漀渀琀攀渀琀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀 挀漀昀昀椀渀 眀愀猀 甀猀甀愀氀氀礀 昀漀眀氀 漀爀 瀀漀爀欀 漀爀 最愀洀攀Ⰰ 爀愀爀攀氀礀 戀攀攀昀Ⰰഊthough there are always exceptions. Naturally I don't have my sources with ਀洀攀 栀攀爀攀 愀琀 眀漀爀欀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 氀漀漀欀攀搀 椀渀琀漀 椀琀 椀渀 琀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀⸀ 唀猀琀愀 琀攀愀挀栀 愀 挀氀愀猀猀ഊon the subject. My favorite English butcher has departed this earth, but she ਀愀氀眀愀礀猀 洀愀搀攀 栀攀爀 䴀攀氀琀漀渀 䴀漀眀戀爀愀礀 瀀椀攀猀 猀焀甀愀爀攀 漀爀 爀攀挀琀愀渀最甀氀愀爀Ⰰ 甀猀椀渀最 樀甀猀琀 猀甀挀栀 愀ഊ, well, not a ring, but a bottomless rectangle with a rolled upper edge. ਀吀栀愀琀✀猀 渀漀琀 攀瘀椀搀攀渀挀攀 漀昀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀 瀀爀愀挀琀椀挀攀Ⰰ 栀漀眀攀瘀攀爀Ⰰ 樀甀猀琀 愀 昀漀渀搀 洀攀洀漀爀礀⸀ഊ ਀刀愀椀猀椀渀最 琀栀攀 挀漀昀昀椀渀 爀攀昀攀爀爀攀搀 琀漀 琀栀攀 瀀爀漀挀攀猀猀 漀昀 甀猀椀渀最 愀 猀琀椀昀昀 搀漀甀最栀 琀漀 洀漀氀搀ഊthe shape: perhaps with the aid of a trap (mold), perhaps not. I know that ਀挀氀愀礀 瀀漀琀ⴀ洀愀欀椀渀最 猀欀椀氀氀猀 栀愀瘀攀 愀氀眀愀礀猀 戀攀攀渀 栀愀渀搀礀 昀漀爀 洀攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 猀漀洀攀琀椀洀攀猀 䤀 甀猀攀ഊthe outside of a handy container for the mold. We know those solid pies were ਀洀攀愀渀琀 琀漀 猀琀愀渀搀 漀渀 琀栀攀椀爀 漀眀渀 愀昀琀攀爀 挀漀漀欀椀渀最Ⰰ 眀椀琀栀漀甀琀 琀栀攀 愀椀搀 漀昀 愀 瀀愀渀 漀爀 昀漀爀洀⸀ഊYou'd need a very hard-baking, stiff crust to do that. It has been ਀瀀漀猀琀甀氀愀琀攀搀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀 挀爀甀猀琀Ⰰ 愀琀 氀攀愀猀琀 椀渀 攀愀爀氀椀攀爀 瀀椀攀猀Ⰰ 眀愀猀 洀攀愀渀琀 琀漀 戀攀ഊdiscarded and was used primarily for containment (I have even read a ਀搀攀猀挀爀椀瀀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 琀栀攀 挀爀甀猀琀 椀渀 愀 洀漀搀攀爀渀 搀椀猀挀甀猀猀椀漀渀 愀猀 瀀愀爀琀 漀昀 琀栀漀猀攀 甀戀椀焀甀椀琀漀甀猀ഊ"alms" that were given to the poor though I am not sure if this is ਀瘀攀爀椀昀椀愀戀氀攀⤀⸀ 吀栀攀爀攀 椀猀 渀漀 搀漀甀戀琀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀 挀漀渀琀攀渀琀猀 眀攀爀攀 琀栀攀 洀愀椀渀 ∀琀栀椀渀最∀ഊhowever, and the crust may have served the purpose of a temporary container, ਀栀攀氀瀀椀渀最 琀漀 瀀爀攀猀攀爀瘀攀 琀栀攀 昀漀漀搀 椀渀猀椀搀攀 昀漀爀 愀 昀攀眀 洀漀爀攀 搀愀礀猀 漀昀 椀琀✀猀 氀椀洀椀琀攀搀ഊshelf life. ਀ഊAdamantius could probably give us a good exposition on the make-up of a ਀最漀漀搀Ⰰ 栀愀爀搀 挀爀甀猀琀Ⰰ 椀昀 栀攀 眀愀猀 昀攀攀氀椀渀最 猀漀 椀渀挀氀椀渀攀搀 漀渀 琀栀椀猀 渀椀挀攀 猀瀀爀椀渀最 搀愀礀⸀ 䤀ഊgo for hot-water crust myself, made with real butter. Butter always hardens ਀眀攀氀氀 昀漀爀 洀攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 椀猀 洀甀挀栀 栀愀爀搀攀爀 琀栀愀渀 洀漀猀琀 漀琀栀攀爀 昀愀琀猀 愀爀攀 眀栀攀渀 挀漀氀搀 䤀䴀伀⸀ 䤀ഊusually need the use of a collar to restrain the sides of the pie while ਀戀愀欀椀渀最⸀ഊ ਀䄀渀搀 最椀瘀攀渀 洀礀 洀漀搀攀爀渀 戀愀挀欀最爀漀甀渀搀Ⰰ 䤀 甀猀甀愀氀氀礀 猀攀爀瘀攀 洀攀愀琀 瀀椀攀猀 挀漀氀搀⸀ 䠀漀眀 攀氀猀攀ഊwould done get that wonderful, flavorful jelly? ਀ഊAoife ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 吀栀甀Ⰰ 㤀 䴀愀爀 ㈀　　　 ㄀㤀㨀㌀㈀㨀㈀㠀 ⴀ　㘀　　ഊFrom: "RANDALL DIAMOND" ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 匀䌀 ⴀ 刀䔀㨀匀䌀 吀爀愀瀀猀ഊ ਀䄀漀椀昀攀 挀漀洀洀攀渀琀猀㨀ഊ>>>Adamantius could probably give us a good exposition on the make-up of a ਀最漀漀搀Ⰰ 栀愀爀搀 挀爀甀猀琀Ⰰ 椀昀 栀攀 眀愀猀 昀攀攀氀椀渀最 猀漀 椀渀挀氀椀渀攀搀 漀渀 琀栀椀猀 渀椀挀攀 猀瀀爀椀渀最 搀愀礀⸀ 䤀ഊgo for hot-water crust myself, made with real butter. Butter always hardens ਀眀攀氀氀 昀漀爀 洀攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 椀猀 洀甀挀栀 栀愀爀搀攀爀 琀栀愀渀 洀漀猀琀 漀琀栀攀爀 昀愀琀猀 愀爀攀 眀栀攀渀 挀漀氀搀 䤀䴀伀⸀ 䤀ഊusually need the use of a collar to restrain the sides of the pie while ਀戀愀欀椀渀最⸀㰀㰀㰀ഊ ਀䤀 栀愀瘀攀 愀氀眀愀礀猀 洀愀搀攀 洀礀 䴀攀氀琀漀渀 䴀漀眀戀爀愀礀猀 椀渀 爀愀椀猀攀搀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 挀漀昀昀椀渀猀Ⰰ 琀栀漀甀最栀ഊusually round. Hi-gluten flour and boiling lard are what I use to make the ਀搀漀甀最栀Ⰰ 挀漀椀氀椀渀最 漀渀 愀渀 椀渀挀栀 琀栀椀挀欀 戀愀猀攀 氀椀欀攀 洀愀欀椀渀最 瀀漀琀琀攀爀礀⸀  吀栀椀猀 椀猀 眀栀愀琀ഊElisabeth Ayrton instructs in _Provential English Cooking_. She notes ਀琀栀愀琀 栀攀爀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀 挀漀洀攀猀 昀爀漀洀 琀栀攀 ㄀㐀琀栀 挀攀渀琀甀爀礀⸀  䄀爀甀渀搀攀氀 䌀愀猀琀氀攀 䤀 琀栀椀渀欀⸀ഊActually, the crust if you pour in sufficient stock becomes quite tasty ਀愀渀搀 愀 最漀漀搀 搀攀愀氀 甀猀甀愀氀氀礀 椀猀 攀愀琀攀渀 戀礀 琀栀攀 昀攀愀猀琀攀爀猀 椀渀 洀礀 攀砀瀀攀爀椀攀渀挀攀 ⠀愀戀漀甀琀ഊa third of the crust) ਀ഊAkim Yaroslavich ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 䴀漀渀Ⰰ ㄀㔀 䴀愀礀 ㈀　　　 　㜀㨀㈀㤀㨀㄀㔀 ⴀ　㔀　　ഊFrom: "RANDALL DIAMOND" ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 匀䌀 ⴀ 刀攀㨀 䰀愀爀搀ഊ ਀䌀攀搀爀椀渀 爀攀洀愀爀欀猀㨀ഊ>>>>With that in mind, I'll agree that lard makes wonderfully flaky pastry. It, ਀栀漀眀攀瘀攀爀Ⰰ 洀愀欀攀猀 愀 琀攀爀爀椀戀氀攀 挀爀甀猀琀 昀漀爀 愀 昀爀攀攀 猀琀愀渀搀椀渀最 琀愀氀氀 挀漀昀昀椀渀 猀栀愀瀀攀⸀ 夀漀甀 氀漀漀欀ഊat it funny and you have a pile of flakes. Don't even think about trying to ਀挀甀琀 琀栀爀漀甀最栀 椀琀⸀ 㰀㰀㰀㰀ഊ ਀圀栀漀愀℀℀℀  夀漀甀 洀甀猀琀 戀攀 搀漀椀渀最 猀漀洀攀琀栀椀渀最 眀爀漀渀最⸀  吀栀攀ഊEnglish have been using lard to make tall coffin pyes ਀氀椀欀攀 䴀攀氀琀漀渀 䴀漀眀戀爀愀礀猀 昀漀爀 㔀　　 礀攀愀爀猀℀  䰀愀爀搀 椀猀 琀栀攀 伀一䰀夀ഊgood period ingredient for making tall coffins. Are you ਀甀猀椀渀最 愀 栀椀最栀 最氀甀琀攀渀 昀氀漀甀爀 愀渀搀 瀀漀甀爀椀渀最 椀渀 琀栀攀 氀愀爀搀 戀漀椀氀椀渀最⸀ഊI have no trouble making 8" or so high coffins. I can ਀攀瘀攀渀 搀漀 栀椀最栀 爀攀氀椀攀昀 猀挀甀氀瀀琀甀爀攀 漀渀 琀栀攀 氀椀搀猀 眀椀琀栀 椀琀⸀  吀栀攀 瀀礀攀猀ഊare very free standing. Did you prebake your crust ਀猀栀攀氀氀 猀氀椀最栀琀氀礀 琀漀 猀攀琀 椀琀 戀攀昀漀爀攀 昀椀氀氀攀搀 椀琀㼀  吀栀愀琀 椀猀 漀昀琀攀渀ഊnescessary with very large and tall coffins. "Setting" ਀琀栀攀 猀栀攀氀氀 瀀爀漀瀀攀爀氀礀 搀攀瀀攀渀搀猀 漀渀 琀栀攀 爀椀最栀琀 瀀爀漀挀攀搀甀爀攀猀ഊin mixing dough and having correct oven temperature ਀挀漀渀琀爀漀氀⸀  䤀渀 洀漀搀攀爀渀 最愀猀 漀瘀攀渀猀 䤀 昀椀渀搀 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 琀漀 瀀爀漀琀攀挀琀ഊthe top crust though as the top clearances are less ਀琀栀愀渀 琀爀愀搀椀琀椀漀渀愀氀 搀漀洀攀 漀瘀攀渀猀 愀渀搀 椀琀 眀椀氀氀 搀愀爀欀攀渀 琀漀漀ഊfast and burn instead of a glorious golden brown. ਀䤀渀挀椀搀攀渀琀愀氀氀礀Ⰰ 礀漀甀 愀氀猀漀 渀攀攀搀 琀漀 氀椀戀攀爀愀氀氀礀 瀀愀椀渀琀 琀栀攀 猀栀攀氀氀ഊin beaten egg yolk too for best results. ਀ഊAkim Yaroslavich ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 吀栀甀Ⰰ ㄀㠀 䴀愀礀 ㈀　　　 ㈀㄀㨀㔀㌀㨀㈀㔀 ⴀ　㔀　　ഊFrom: "RANDALL DIAMOND" ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 匀䌀 ⴀ 刀攀㨀 䰀愀爀搀ഊ ਀䈀愀氀琀栀愀稀愀爀 猀愀礀猀㨀ഊ>>>>Allright...I think I am clueless again. Can anyone send me the recipe ਀昀漀爀ഊthis? I would like to see what you are talking about. I think my idea of a ਀∀挀漀昀昀椀渀∀ 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 椀猀 搀椀昀昀攀爀攀渀琀 琀栀愀渀 琀栀攀 漀渀攀 礀漀甀 昀漀氀欀猀 愀爀攀 琀栀椀渀欀椀渀最 漀昀⸀㰀㰀㰀㰀ഊ ਀䠀攀爀攀 椀猀 琀栀攀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀 䤀 甀猀攀 昀漀爀 爀愀椀猀攀搀 ⠀挀漀昀昀椀渀⤀ 瀀礀攀猀㨀ഊ1 Kg high gluten wheat flour (2.2 lb.) (NEVER self rising) ਀㄀㔀最 匀愀氀琀 ⠀㄀ 吀戀猀瀀⤀ഊ1/2 Kg Lard (1.1 lb.) ਀㄀⸀㔀 搀氀 洀椀氀欀 ⠀㔀⼀㠀 挀甀瀀⤀ഊ1.5 dl water (5/8 cup) ਀㈀ 氀愀爀最攀 攀最最猀 眀攀氀氀 戀攀愀琀攀渀ഊ1 stick butter ਀ഊSift the flour and salt together and rub the ਀昀椀爀洀 戀甀琀琀攀爀 椀渀琀漀 琀栀攀 昀氀漀甀爀 眀椀琀栀 琀栀攀 昀椀渀最攀爀琀椀瀀猀ഊuntil crumbly. Boil the lard with the milk and ਀眀愀琀攀爀⸀  ⠀圀愀爀渀椀渀最㨀 搀漀 渀漀琀 愀搀搀 攀椀琀栀攀爀 琀漀 愀氀爀攀愀搀礀ഊboiling lard. Bring them to a boil together!) ਀䴀愀欀攀 愀 眀攀氀氀 椀渀 礀漀甀爀 洀椀砀攀搀 昀氀漀甀爀 愀渀搀 瀀漀甀爀 椀渀 琀栀攀ഊboiling (actually boiling, not just hot) lard. Stir ਀眀椀琀栀 愀 猀琀漀甀琀 眀漀漀搀 猀瀀漀漀渀 甀渀琀椀氀 挀漀漀氀攀搀 攀渀漀甀最栀 琀漀ഊknead with your bare hands... still very hot, mind ਀礀漀甀⸀  夀漀甀 洀愀礀 眀攀愀爀 爀甀戀戀攀爀 最氀漀瘀攀猀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 䤀 昀椀渀搀 琀栀攀ഊvery hot dough and grease to be very good for ਀洀礀 愀爀琀栀椀爀椀琀椀猀 愀渀搀 瘀攀爀礀 洀漀椀猀琀甀爀椀稀椀渀最 琀漀 琀栀攀 猀欀椀渀⸀ഊKnead well and let stand for 10 minutes. ਀刀漀氀氀 漀甀琀 猀漀洀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 搀漀甀最栀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 戀漀琀琀漀洀 漀昀ഊthe coffin 2cm to 3cm thick (3/4" to1 1/4" +/-) ਀愀渀搀 挀甀琀 琀漀 猀栀愀瀀攀 漀昀 瀀礀攀 ⠀爀漀甀渀搀 椀猀 攀愀猀椀攀猀琀⤀ 愀渀搀ഊabout 1cm (1/3") bigger than you think you want ਀琀栀攀 昀椀渀椀猀栀攀搀 挀漀昀昀椀渀 琀漀 戀攀⸀  吀栀攀 搀漀甀最栀⼀ 瀀愀猀琀攀 洀甀猀琀 戀攀ഊworked while hot or at least warm. The taller the coffin, ਀琀栀攀 琀栀椀挀欀攀爀 琀栀攀 戀愀猀攀 愀渀搀 眀愀氀氀猀 爀攀焀甀椀爀攀搀Ⰰ 猀漀 愀搀樀甀猀琀ഊyour dough amounts prepared accordingly. Build ਀甀瀀 琀栀攀 猀椀搀攀猀 眀椀琀栀 挀漀椀氀攀搀 搀漀甀最栀 氀椀欀攀 愀 瀀漀琀琀攀爀 戀甀椀氀搀猀ഊa pot until you get it the height you want. Smooth ਀琀栀攀 漀甀琀猀椀搀攀猀 挀愀爀攀昀甀氀氀礀 漀甀琀猀椀搀攀 愀渀搀 椀渀Ⰰ 愀氀眀愀礀猀 眀漀爀欀椀渀最ഊthe paste upwards. If you are using a soild meat ਀昀椀氀氀椀渀最 氀椀欀攀 猀洀愀氀氀 瀀椀攀挀攀猀 漀昀 瀀漀爀欀 眀椀琀栀 挀甀爀爀愀渀琀猀 愀渀搀 猀甀挀栀Ⰰഊyou can pack it in solidly and put on a lid piece without ਀猀攀琀琀椀渀最 琀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀⸀   䤀昀 礀漀甀爀 昀椀氀氀椀渀最 椀猀 洀漀爀攀 氀椀焀甀椀搀 氀椀欀攀ഊa fruit filling, you will need to set the form before filling. ਀䤀 爀攀挀漀洀洀攀渀搀 甀猀椀渀最 氀漀渀最 猀栀攀攀琀猀 漀昀 愀氀甀洀椀渀甀洀 昀漀椀氀 昀漀氀搀攀搀ഊseveral times lengthwise to make a kind of "bellyband" ਀琀漀 栀攀氀瀀 欀攀攀瀀 琀栀攀 昀漀爀洀 昀爀漀洀 戀漀眀椀渀最 漀爀 挀漀氀氀愀瀀猀椀渀最⸀  䤀 甀猀攀ഊpaperclips to hold the joined folds of foil closed. ਀ഊBrush the pye with the beaten egg, reserving some for later. ਀䈀愀欀攀 愀琀 ㄀㤀　䌀 ⠀㌀㜀㔀䘀Ⰰ 䜀愀猀 䴀愀爀欀 㔀⤀ 昀漀爀 ㈀　 洀椀渀甀琀攀猀 琀漀 猀攀琀ഊthe pastry. If already filled, reduce to 170C (325F, Gas Mark ਀㌀⤀ 琀漀 挀漀渀琀椀渀甀攀 戀愀欀椀渀最⸀  䤀昀 渀漀琀 昀椀氀氀攀搀Ⰰ 挀漀漀氀 愀渀搀 昀椀氀氀Ⰰ 琀栀攀渀 戀愀欀攀 愀琀ഊ170C (325F, Gas Mark 3). Obviously, the filling will have ਀愀 最爀攀愀琀 搀攀愀氀 琀漀 搀漀 眀椀琀栀 琀栀攀 琀椀洀攀 漀昀 戀愀欀椀渀最 爀攀焀甀椀爀攀搀Ⰰ 愀猀 眀椀氀氀ഊthe size of your creation. A soild raw meat filling will take 1 3/4 ਀琀漀 ㈀ ㄀⼀㈀ 栀漀甀爀猀 昀漀爀 愀 氀愀爀最椀猀栀 瀀礀攀 氀椀欀攀 琀栀椀猀 漀渀攀⸀  䘀爀甀椀琀⼀ 洀椀渀挀攀洀攀愀琀ഊwill take about 1 to 1 1/2 hours. Success requires some ਀攀砀瀀攀爀椀洀攀渀琀愀琀椀漀渀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 最攀渀攀爀愀氀氀礀 攀瘀攀渀 琀栀攀 昀愀椀氀甀爀攀猀 愀爀攀 搀攀氀椀挀椀漀甀猀⸀ഊAbout 10 minutes before the end of cooking time, baste the ਀眀栀漀氀攀 琀栀椀渀最 眀椀琀栀 琀栀攀 爀攀洀愀椀渀椀渀最 戀攀愀琀攀渀 攀最最 琀漀 最椀瘀攀 琀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀ഊa good gold gloss. Let the pye become quite cool before ਀猀攀爀瘀椀渀最⸀ഊ ਀䄀 昀攀眀 渀漀琀攀猀㨀  䘀漀爀 琀栀攀 瀀漀爀欀 瀀礀攀Ⰰ 琀爀椀洀 瀀椀挀渀椀挀 猀栀漀甀氀搀攀爀 琀漀 戀椀琀攀ഊsized gobbets, including fat (but not skin or gristle). Season ਀眀椀琀栀 昀爀攀猀栀 爀甀戀戀攀搀 猀愀最攀Ⰰ 戀愀猀椀氀Ⰰ 猀愀氀琀 愀渀搀 瀀攀瀀瀀攀爀㬀 洀愀礀戀攀 猀漀洀攀ഊrosemary or galingale if you like the taste). Leave a 5cm (2") hole ਀椀渀 琀栀攀 琀漀瀀 挀爀甀猀琀 琀漀 氀攀琀 漀甀琀 猀琀攀愀洀 愀渀搀 琀漀 瀀漀甀爀 椀渀 猀漀洀攀 爀攀搀甀挀攀搀ഊstock if you like to fill the pye after it comes out of the oven. ਀夀漀甀 挀愀渀 甀猀攀 氀攀昀琀漀瘀攀爀 瀀愀猀琀攀⼀搀漀甀最栀 琀漀 漀爀渀愀洀攀渀琀 琀栀攀 氀椀搀 眀椀琀栀ഊflowers or heraldic critters. It is very easy to do fairly elaborate ਀猀挀甀氀瀀琀甀爀攀 愀猀 氀漀渀最 愀猀 礀漀甀 搀漀 椀琀 椀渀 栀椀最栀 爀攀氀椀攀昀 愀渀搀 渀漀琀 昀爀攀攀猀琀愀渀搀椀渀最⸀ഊBaste liberally with beaten egg and use foil tents to keep it from ਀戀爀漀眀渀椀渀最 甀渀攀瘀攀渀氀礀⸀   䘀漀爀 琀栀攀 氀攀猀猀 愀搀瘀攀渀琀甀爀攀猀漀洀攀Ⰰ 䤀 猀甀最最攀猀琀 甀猀椀渀最ഊa large springform to mold the coffin, however, the bottom and ਀猀椀搀攀猀 洀甀猀琀 猀琀椀氀氀 戀攀 琀栀椀挀欀 猀漀 愀猀 渀漀琀 琀漀 昀愀氀氀 愀瀀愀爀琀 昀爀漀洀 琀栀攀 眀攀椀最栀琀 漀昀ഊthe filling when you release it from the form. ਀ഊThis is not a period method, though I assume pyes were raised ਀戀礀 琀栀攀 挀漀椀氀 洀攀琀栀漀搀 椀渀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀⸀  䤀 眀漀甀氀搀 琀栀椀渀欀 琀栀攀礀 栀愀搀 猀漀洀攀 欀椀渀搀ഊof clay pottery forms though, as they made these quite reqularly, ਀眀栀攀爀攀愀猀 愀 猀瀀攀挀椀愀氀 昀漀爀洀 昀漀爀 漀甀爀 漀挀愀猀猀椀漀渀愀氀 甀猀攀 椀猀 渀漀琀 瘀攀爀礀ഊpractical. The dough ingredients are traditional to English cookery, ਀愀氀氀攀最攀搀氀礀 戀愀挀欀 琀漀 琀栀攀 ㄀㐀琀栀 挀攀渀琀甀爀礀⸀  伀昀 氀愀琀攀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 䔀渀最氀椀猀栀 栀愀瘀攀 戀攀攀渀ഊsubstituting half of the lard with butter though. The particular ਀爀攀挀椀瀀攀 昀漀爀 䴀攀氀琀漀渀 䴀漀眀戀爀愀礀 倀礀攀猀 猀甀瀀瀀漀猀攀搀氀礀 栀愀猀 椀琀猀 爀漀漀琀猀 椀渀 ㄀㐀琀栀 挀⸀ഊArundel Castle. Perhaps some of our list members across the pond ਀挀漀甀氀搀 猀攀攀 椀昀 琀栀攀礀 挀愀渀 昀椀渀搀 愀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀 猀漀甀爀挀攀 昀爀漀洀 琀栀攀爀攀㼀ഊHave fun experimenting! ਀ഊAkim Yaroslavich ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 吀栀甀Ⰰ 㐀 一漀瘀 ㈀　　㐀 ㄀㌀㨀㔀㐀㨀㌀㄀ ⴀ　㔀　　ഊFrom: Daniel Myers ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 倀椀氀氀猀戀甀爀礀 瀀椀攀 挀爀甀猀琀猀ഊTo: Cooks within the SCA ਀ഊOn Nov 4, 2004, at 11:48 AM, Chris Stanifer wrote: ਀㸀 䄀渀漀琀栀攀爀 爀攀愀猀漀渀 礀漀甀 洀愀礀 眀椀猀栀 琀漀 洀愀欀攀 ✀瀀椀攀 挀爀甀猀琀猀✀ 戀礀 栀愀渀搀 昀漀爀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀ഊ> feasts is that there appears ਀㸀 琀漀 戀攀 愀 戀椀琀 漀昀 攀瘀椀搀攀渀挀攀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀 ✀瀀椀攀 挀爀甀猀琀猀✀ 甀猀攀搀 椀渀 洀愀渀礀 漀昀 琀栀攀ഊ> extant recipes were not all that ਀㸀 昀氀愀欀礀 漀爀 琀攀渀搀攀爀 琀漀 戀攀最椀渀 眀椀琀栀⸀  䤀琀 愀氀氀 搀攀瀀攀渀搀猀 漀渀 栀漀眀 愀甀琀栀攀渀琀椀挀 礀漀甀ഊ> want to be. A crust used to ਀㸀 攀渀挀愀猀攀 愀 爀愀戀戀椀琀 ⠀䠀愀爀攀 倀椀攀㼀㼀㼀⤀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 琀愀欀攀 琀栀攀 猀栀愀瀀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 漀爀椀最椀渀愀氀ഊ> creature would need to be ਀㸀 猀琀甀爀搀礀⸀  䄀 洀漀搀攀爀渀 昀氀愀欀礀 瀀椀攀 挀爀甀猀琀 洀愀礀 眀攀氀氀 挀爀甀洀戀氀攀 甀渀搀攀爀 椀琀猀 漀眀渀ഊ> weight if used in this manner. ਀ഊHaving done a good amount of research and experimentation on pie ਀挀爀甀猀琀猀Ⰰ 䤀✀洀 椀渀挀氀椀渀攀搀 琀漀 搀椀猀愀最爀攀攀⸀  吀栀攀爀攀 愀爀攀 洀愀渀礀 瀀愀椀渀琀椀渀最猀 昀爀漀洀 樀甀猀琀ഊafter period of standing crust pies where it can clearly be seen that ਀琀栀攀 眀愀氀氀猀 愀爀攀 氀攀猀猀 琀栀愀渀 愀 焀甀愀爀琀攀爀 漀昀 愀渀 椀渀挀栀 琀栀椀挀欀⸀  䤀✀瘀攀 愀氀猀漀 洀愀搀攀 愀ഊnumber of dishes using standard pie crust recipes that are sculpted and ਀猀琀愀渀搀 甀瀀 焀甀椀琀攀 眀攀氀氀 漀渀 琀栀攀椀爀 漀眀渀 ⠀猀攀攀 琀栀攀 瀀椀挀猀 愀琀 琀栀攀 唀刀䰀猀 戀攀氀漀眀⤀⸀ഊNone of them had a tendency to crumble. As long as there's something ਀琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀 挀爀甀猀琀 椀猀 眀爀愀瀀瀀攀搀 愀爀漀甀渀搀Ⰰ 琀栀攀渀 椀琀 栀愀猀 瀀氀攀渀琀礀 漀昀 猀甀瀀瀀漀爀琀⸀ഊ ਀ऀ∀匀琀椀氀氀ⴀ氀椀昀攀 眀椀琀栀 吀甀爀欀攀礀ⴀ倀椀攀∀ ⠀搀攀琀愀椀氀⤀Ⰰ 倀椀攀琀攀爀 䌀氀愀攀猀稀Ⰰ 挀⸀ ㄀㘀㌀　ഊ http://www.medievalcookery.com/images/standing1.jpg ਀ഊ "Breakfast Table with Blackberry Pie" (detail), Willem Claesz Heda ਀⠀㄀㘀㌀㄀⤀ഊ http://www.medievalcookery.com/images/standing4.jpg ਀ഊSome of my own experiments: ਀ऀ䄀 䐀椀猀栀 漀昀 䄀爀琀椀挀栀漀欀攀猀  ⴀഊhttp://www.medievalcookery.com/images/artichoke.jpg ਀ऀ䄀 挀栀椀挀欀攀渀 瀀椀攀 猀栀愀瀀攀搀 氀椀欀攀 愀 昀椀猀栀  ⴀഊhttp://www.medievalcookery.com/images/fish.jpg ਀ഊ Standing crust experiment - ਀栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀眀眀眀⸀洀攀搀椀攀瘀愀氀挀漀漀欀攀爀礀⸀挀漀洀⼀椀洀愀最攀猀⼀挀爀甀猀琀⸀樀瀀最ഊ (the final version of this one was larger and thinner) ਀ഊAlso see the painting "Kitchen" (Vincenzo Campi, 1580s) in which there ਀椀猀 愀 眀漀洀愀渀 爀漀氀氀椀渀最 漀甀琀 愀 琀栀椀渀 琀漀瀀 挀爀甀猀琀 昀漀爀 愀 搀漀甀戀氀攀 挀爀甀猀琀 瀀椀攀 椀渀 愀ഊmodern-shaped pie pan. ਀ഊ http://www.wga.hu/art/c/campi/vincenzo/2kitchen.jpg ਀ഊ> There are those, like myself, who believe that some of these crusts ਀㸀 眀攀爀攀 渀漀琀 攀瘀攀渀 洀攀愀渀琀 琀漀 戀攀ഊ> eaten, but rather acted as sturdy little pastry ovens to help keep the ਀㸀 挀漀渀琀攀渀琀猀 洀漀椀猀琀 愀渀搀ഊ> protected from excessive heat. When the dish was served, the crust ਀㸀 眀愀猀 挀甀琀 愀眀愀礀 愀渀搀 搀椀猀挀愀爀搀攀搀⸀ഊ ਀圀栀椀氀攀 猀漀洀攀 猀琀愀渀搀椀渀最 挀爀甀猀琀猀 洀愀礀 栀愀瘀攀 戀攀攀渀 甀猀攀搀 愀猀 愀 瀀爀攀猀攀爀瘀愀琀椀漀渀 洀攀琀栀漀搀ഊand were not intended to be eaten, this is certainly not the case for ਀愀氀氀 挀爀甀猀琀猀Ⰰ 愀猀 攀瘀椀搀攀渀挀攀搀 戀礀 琀栀攀 昀漀氀氀漀眀椀渀最 ⠀攀洀瀀栀愀猀椀猀 愀搀搀攀搀⤀㨀ഊ ਀∀吀漀 洀愀欀攀 倀愀猀琀攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 琀漀 爀愀椀猀攀 䌀漀昀昀椀渀猀⸀ 吀愀欀攀 昀椀渀攀 昀氀漀眀攀爀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 氀愀礀 椀琀 漀渀 愀ഊboord, and take a certaine of yolkes of Egges as your quantitie of ਀昀氀漀眀攀爀 椀猀Ⰰ 琀栀攀渀 琀愀欀攀 愀 挀攀爀琀愀椀渀攀 漀昀 䈀甀琀琀攀爀 愀渀搀 眀愀琀攀爀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 戀漀椀氀 琀栀攀洀ഊtogether, but ye must take heed ye put not too many yolks of Egges, *** ਀昀漀爀 椀昀 礀漀甀 搀漀攀Ⰰ 椀琀 眀椀氀氀 洀愀欀攀 椀琀 搀爀椀攀 愀渀搀 渀漀琀 瀀氀攀愀猀愀渀琀 椀渀 攀愀琀椀渀最 ⨀⨀⨀㨀ഊand yee must take heed ye put not in too much Butter for if you doe, it ਀眀椀氀氀 洀愀欀攀 椀琀 猀漀 昀椀渀攀 愀渀搀 猀栀漀爀琀 琀栀愀琀 礀漀甀 挀愀渀渀漀琀 爀愀椀猀攀⸀ 䄀渀搀 琀栀椀猀 瀀愀猀琀攀 椀猀ഊgood to raise all manner of Coffins: Likewise if ye bake Venison, bake ਀椀琀 椀渀 琀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀攀 愀戀漀瘀攀 渀愀洀攀搀⸀ ∀ഊ ਀匀漀甀爀挀攀 嬀吀栀攀 䜀漀漀搀 䠀甀猀眀椀昀攀猀 䠀愀渀搀洀愀椀搀攀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 䬀椀琀挀栀攀渀Ⰰ 匀琀甀愀爀琀 倀攀愀挀栀攀礀ഊ(ed.), c. 1588] ਀ഊ- Doc ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 匀愀琀Ⰰ ㄀㤀 䘀攀戀 ㈀　　㔀 ㄀　㨀㌀㐀㨀㌀㈀ ⴀ　㔀　　ഊFrom: Johnna Holloway ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 刀攀㨀 䌀漀昀昀礀渀猀ഊTo: Cooks within the SCA ਀ഊPhil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote: ਀㸀 一漀眀Ⰰ 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 渀漀 挀漀洀瀀攀氀氀椀渀最 攀瘀椀搀攀渀挀攀 琀漀 猀甀最最攀猀琀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀椀猀 洀攀琀栀漀搀 眀愀猀ഊ> used in period, nor that anything like a hot-water dough appears until ਀㸀 琀栀攀 猀攀瘀攀渀琀攀攀渀琀栀 挀攀渀琀甀爀礀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 椀琀✀猀 琀攀洀瀀琀椀渀最 琀漀 愀猀猀甀洀攀 猀甀挀栀 愀 琀栀椀渀最ഊ> could have been done (whether or not it actually was is another ਀㸀 猀琀漀爀礀⤀Ⰰ 猀椀渀挀攀 琀栀攀 琀攀挀栀渀漀氀漀最礀 挀氀攀愀爀氀礀 攀砀椀猀琀攀搀 昀漀爀 漀琀栀攀爀 琀礀瀀攀猀 漀昀ഊ> manufacture. ਀㸀ഊ> As for the question of the thickness of the pastry and whether you ਀㸀 渀攀攀搀 猀甀瀀瀀漀爀琀Ⰰ 椀琀 愀氀猀漀 戀攀挀漀洀攀猀 洀漀爀攀 猀琀愀戀氀攀 眀栀攀渀 琀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 椀猀 昀椀氀氀攀搀ഊ> with something fairly solid, and a lid sealed in place. ਀㸀ഊ> Adamantius ਀ഊI am on my way out the door but Markham does include a ਀∀爀礀攀 瀀愀猀琀攀 眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 欀渀攀愀搀攀搀 漀渀氀礀 眀椀琀栀 栀漀琀 眀愀琀攀爀 愀渀搀 愀 氀椀琀琀氀攀ഊbutter, or sweet seam and rye flour very finely sifted, and it ਀眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 洀愀搀攀 琀漀甀最栀 愀渀搀 猀琀椀昀昀 琀栀愀琀 椀琀 洀愀礀 猀琀愀渀搀 眀攀氀氀 椀渀 琀栀攀 爀愀椀猀椀渀最ഊfor the coffin thereof must ever be very deep: your coarse wheat crust ਀眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 欀渀攀愀搀攀搀 眀椀琀栀 栀漀琀 眀愀琀攀爀Ⰰ 漀爀 洀甀琀琀漀渀 戀爀漀琀栀 愀渀搀 最漀漀搀 猀琀漀爀攀 漀昀 戀甀琀琀攀爀Ⰰഊand the paste made stiff and tough because that coffin must be deep also..." ਀ഊBest edition on pages 96-98. ਀ഊJohnnae ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 匀愀琀Ⰰ ㄀㤀 䘀攀戀 ㈀　　㔀 ㈀㈀㨀㈀㈀㨀㌀㠀 ⴀ　㘀　　ഊFrom: "Terry Decker" ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 刀攀㨀 䌀漀昀昀礀渀猀ഊTo: "Zelina Silverfox" , "Cooks within the SCA" ਀ऀ㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀㸀 唀洀⸀⸀焀甀攀猀琀椀漀渀⸀⸀⸀洀愀礀 猀漀甀渀搀 漀搀搀 戀甀琀 栀攀爀攀 最漀攀猀⸀ഊ> How thick should the pastry be to free stand 8 inches on the sides ਀㸀 眀椀琀栀漀甀琀 挀漀氀氀愀瀀猀椀渀最 漀渀 椀琀猀攀氀昀㼀 䤀 愀洀 愀猀猀甀洀椀渀最 ⠀ 䤀 欀渀漀眀⸀⸀⸀ 戀愀搀 眀漀爀搀⤀ 琀栀愀琀ഊ> the top would have been done seperately and put on towards the end of ਀㸀 琀栀攀 昀椀渀愀氀 戀愀欀椀渀最 猀琀愀最攀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀 縀娀攀氀椀渀愀縀ഊ ਀䠀漀眀 猀琀椀昀昀 椀猀 琀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 搀漀甀最栀㼀  吀栀攀 氀攀猀猀 瀀氀椀愀戀氀攀 琀栀攀 搀漀甀最栀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 琀栀椀渀渀攀爀 琀栀攀ഊwall can be. I'm of the opinion that a freestanding pastry can made at a ਀琀栀椀挀欀渀攀猀猀 漀昀 ㄀⼀㐀 琀漀 ㄀⼀㠀 椀渀挀栀攀猀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 琀栀愀琀 椀琀 眀漀甀氀搀 琀愀欀攀 挀漀渀猀椀搀攀爀愀戀氀攀 瀀爀愀挀琀椀挀攀ഊto be able to do it consistently. ਀ഊBear ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 匀愀琀Ⰰ ㄀㤀 䘀攀戀 ㈀　　㔀 ㈀㌀㨀㈀㠀㨀㐀㔀 ⴀ　㔀　　ഊFrom: Daniel Myers ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 刀攀㨀 䌀漀昀昀礀渀猀ഊTo: Cooks within the SCA ਀ഊOn Feb 19, 2005, at 11:41 AM, Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote: ਀㸀 䄀氀猀漀 猀瀀爀愀挀栀 䐀愀渀椀攀氀 䴀礀攀爀猀㨀ഊ>> Source [Liber cure cocorum]: For lyoure best. Take drye floure, in ਀㸀㸀 挀漀昀礀渀攀 栀椀琀 挀氀漀猀攀Ⰰ 䄀渀搀 戀愀欀攀 栀椀琀 栀愀爀搀Ⰰ 愀猀 䤀 猀甀瀀瀀漀猀攀⸀ 吀栀漀甀 洀愀礀 栀椀琀 欀攀瀀攀ഊ>> alle thys fyve 3ere, There-with alye mony metes sere. (England, c. ਀㸀㸀 ㄀㐀㌀　⤀ഊ> ਀㸀 䠀洀洀洀⸀ 䤀渀 琀栀攀 愀戀漀瘀攀 椀渀猀琀愀渀挀攀Ⰰ 愀爀攀 眀攀 爀攀愀猀漀渀愀戀氀礀 猀甀爀攀 琀栀攀 挀漀昀昀椀渀 椀渀ഊ> question is, in fact, dough? As far as I can tell, this appears to be ਀㸀 愀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀 昀漀爀 瀀爀漀挀攀猀猀椀渀最 愀 琀栀椀挀欀攀渀椀渀最 猀琀愀爀挀栀 戀礀 戀愀欀椀渀最 昀氀漀甀爀 椀渀 愀ഊ> sealed box or pot of an unspecified nature, but which may be a sealed ਀㸀 瀀椀攀 挀爀甀猀琀Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 眀漀甀氀搀 愀氀猀漀 洀愀欀攀 猀漀洀攀 猀攀渀猀攀Ⰰ 最椀瘀攀渀 琀栀攀 愀瘀愀椀氀愀戀椀氀椀琀礀 漀昀ഊ> the materials in a kitchen. Does LCC (a source I haven't looked at in ਀㸀 愀 眀栀椀氀攀⤀ 栀愀瘀攀 琀栀攀猀攀 琀眀漀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀猀 椀渀 猀攀焀甀攀渀挀攀㼀ഊ ਀䄀挀琀甀愀氀氀礀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀猀 搀漀 猀栀漀眀 甀瀀 漀渀攀 爀椀最栀琀 愀昀琀攀爀 琀栀攀 漀琀栀攀爀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 眀栀攀渀 䤀ഊpasted them into the email I reversed the order. They should have been ਀瀀爀攀猀攀渀琀攀搀 愀猀㨀ഊ ਀吀漀 欀攀攀瀀 栀攀爀戀㌀ 漀瘀攀爀 琀栀攀 眀礀渀琀甀爀⸀ഊ Take floure and rere tho cofyns fyne, ਀   圀攀氀攀 猀琀漀渀搀愀渀搀攀 眀椀琀栀漀甀琀攀渀 猀琀椀渀攀㬀ഊ Take tenderons of sauge with owte lesyng, ਀   䄀渀搀 猀琀漀瀀 漀渀攀 昀甀氀氀攀 甀瀀 琀漀 琀栀漀 爀礀渀最㬀ഊ Thenne close tho lyd fayre and wele, ਀   吀栀愀琀 愀礀爀攀 最漀 渀漀琀 漀甀琀攀 渀攀瘀攀爀 愀 搀攀氀攀Ⰰഊ Do so with saveray, percil and rewe; ਀   䄀渀搀 琀栀攀渀渀攀 戀愀欀攀 栀漀洀 栀愀爀搀攀Ⰰ 眀攀氀 渀攀㌀攀 戀爀攀渀搀攀㬀ഊ Sythun, kepe hom drye and to hom tent; ਀   吀栀椀猀 瀀漀眀搀攀爀 猀挀栀愀氀氀攀 戀攀 漀昀 洀漀爀攀 瘀攀爀琀甀Ⰰഊ Then opone erthe when hit gru. ਀ഊ For lyoure best. ਀   吀愀欀攀 搀爀礀攀 昀氀漀甀爀攀Ⰰ 椀渀 挀漀昀礀渀攀 栀椀琀 挀氀漀猀攀Ⰰഊ And bake hit hard, as I suppose; ਀   吀栀漀甀 洀愀礀 栀椀琀 欀攀瀀攀 愀氀氀攀 琀栀礀猀 昀礀瘀攀 ㌀攀爀攀Ⰰഊ There-with alye mony metes sere; ਀   䠀攀爀攀 攀渀搀礀猀 漀甀爀攀 猀愀眀挀攀Ⰰ 琀栀愀琀 䤀 昀漀爀攀琀漀氀搀攀⸀ഊ ਀ⴀ 䐀漀挀ഊ-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ਀   䔀搀漀甀愀爀搀 䠀愀氀椀搀愀椀  ⠀䐀愀渀椀攀氀 䴀礀攀爀猀⤀ഊ Pasciunt, mugiunt, confidiunt. ਀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀഊ ਀ഊDate: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:00:47 -0500 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 䐀愀渀椀攀氀 䴀礀攀爀猀 㰀攀搀漀甀愀爀搀 愀琀 洀攀搀椀攀瘀愀氀挀漀漀欀攀爀礀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns ਀吀漀㨀 䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀伀渀 䘀攀戀 ㈀　Ⰰ ㈀　　㔀Ⰰ 愀琀 ㈀㨀㄀㜀 䄀䴀Ⰰ 倀栀椀氀 吀爀漀礀 ⼀ 䜀⸀ 吀愀挀椀琀甀猀 䄀搀愀洀愀渀琀椀甀猀 眀爀漀琀攀㨀ഊ> Stefan, can you tell us more about your reasoning in reaching this ਀㸀 挀漀渀挀氀甀猀椀漀渀㼀 䤀✀洀 渀漀琀 猀甀爀攀 䤀 戀甀礀 琀栀攀 爀攀挀琀愀渀最甀氀愀爀 瀀椀攀 挀漀昀昀椀渀 椀搀攀愀㨀 琀栀攀爀攀ഊ> are illustrations of what appear to be pies in various manuscripts, ਀㸀 愀渀搀 琀栀攀礀 猀攀攀洀 琀漀 洀攀 琀漀 洀漀猀琀氀礀 爀漀甀渀搀 漀爀 攀氀氀椀瀀琀椀挀愀氀⸀ഊ ਀䤀 愀最爀攀攀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀 洀愀樀漀爀椀琀礀 漀昀 瀀椀挀琀甀爀攀猀 䤀✀瘀攀 猀攀攀渀 愀爀攀 攀砀愀挀琀氀礀 愀猀 礀漀甀 猀愀眀⸀ഊHowever, I vaguely recall seeing a primary source that described ਀洀愀欀椀渀最 愀 爀攀挀琀愀渀最甀氀愀爀 瀀椀攀 ⠀䤀 爀攀洀攀洀戀攀爀 戀攀挀愀甀猀攀 椀琀 猀甀爀瀀爀椀猀攀搀 洀攀 愀琀 琀栀攀ഊtime), but I can't find the reference at this time. I'll keep looking. ਀ഊ> As for the thickness required to make an eight-inch high side which ਀㸀 眀椀氀氀 爀攀洀愀椀渀 猀琀愀渀搀椀渀最Ⰰ 琀栀攀爀攀 愀爀攀 猀漀洀攀 琀栀椀渀最猀 琀栀愀琀 眀攀 渀攀攀搀 琀漀 挀漀渀猀椀搀攀爀⸀ഊ> I'm not sure if eight inches in height is a reasonable expectation ਀㸀 ⠀洀愀礀戀攀 琀栀攀爀攀✀猀 猀漀洀攀 琀攀砀琀甀愀氀 爀攀昀攀爀攀渀挀攀 䤀✀洀 渀漀琀 昀愀洀椀氀椀愀爀 眀椀琀栀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 愀瀀愀爀琀ഊ> from the various English recipes for pies in the shape of Towers, ਀㸀 攀椀最栀琀 椀渀挀栀攀猀 猀漀甀渀搀猀 愀 氀椀琀琀氀攀 栀椀最栀Ⰰ 眀栀攀渀 洀漀猀琀 猀瀀攀挀椀昀椀挀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀ഊ> instructions that refer to height tend to call for one, or in some ਀㸀 挀愀猀攀猀 琀眀漀Ⰰ 椀渀挀栀攀猀 椀渀 栀攀椀最栀琀 昀漀爀 琀愀爀琀猀⤀⸀ഊ ਀䴀椀渀搀 礀漀甀Ⰰ 琀栀攀猀攀 瀀愀椀渀琀椀渀最猀 洀愀礀 渀漀琀 戀攀 琀漀 猀挀愀氀攀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 爀攀氀愀琀椀瘀攀 琀漀 琀栀攀 猀椀稀攀ഊof the hands of the people nearby I'd guess that the standing pies are ਀愀戀漀甀琀 㐀 漀爀 㔀 椀渀挀栀攀猀 琀愀氀氀⸀ഊ ਀ऀ䰀攀猀 昀攀猀琀椀渀猀Ⰰ 刀漀洀愀渀 搀攀 䰀愀渀挀攀氀漀琀 攀渀 瀀爀漀猀攀Ⰰ 䘀爀愀渀挀攀 ⠀㄀㔀琀栀 挀⸀⤀ഊ http://expositions.bnf.fr/gastro/grands/131.htm ਀ഊ La succession des plats, Grandes Heures d'Anne de Bretagne (late 15th c.) ਀ऀ栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀攀砀瀀漀猀椀琀椀漀渀猀⸀戀渀昀⸀昀爀⼀最愀猀琀爀漀⼀最爀愀渀搀猀⼀㄀㌀　⸀栀琀洀ഊ ਀䄀猀 氀漀渀最 愀猀 琀栀攀爀攀✀猀 猀漀洀攀 欀椀渀搀 漀昀 猀甀瀀瀀漀爀琀 搀甀爀椀渀最 琀栀攀 戀愀欀椀渀最 瀀爀漀挀攀猀猀Ⰰ 琀栀攀ഊcrust of a free-standing pie can easily be eight inches high and still ਀戀攀 ㄀⼀㠀 琀漀 ㄀⼀㐀 椀渀挀栀 琀栀椀挀欀⸀  圀椀琀栀漀甀琀 猀甀挀栀 猀甀瀀瀀漀爀琀 琀栀漀甀最栀 琀栀攀礀 ⠀愀琀 氀攀愀猀琀ഊthe ones I've made) tend to warp and deform. ਀ഊThe bowl I made for the "dish of artichokes" was a crust that was blind ਀戀愀欀攀搀 甀瀀猀椀搀攀ⴀ搀漀眀渀Ⰰ 甀猀椀渀最 愀 栀愀渀搀礀 欀椀琀挀栀攀渀 戀漀眀氀 愀猀 愀 昀漀爀洀 ⠀琀栀攀 挀爀甀猀琀 眀愀猀ഊon the *outside* of the bowl). [logical warning: "slippery slope" ਀爀攀愀猀漀渀椀渀最 昀漀氀氀漀眀猀崀 圀栀椀氀攀 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 愀戀猀漀氀甀琀攀氀礀 渀漀 搀漀挀甀洀攀渀琀愀琀椀漀渀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀椀猀ഊwas ever done in period, it's such an obvious solution that I'm ਀爀攀氀甀挀琀愀渀琀 琀漀 猀愀礀 椀琀 眀愀猀渀✀琀 搀漀渀攀⸀ഊ ਀ऀ䄀 䐀椀猀栀攀 漀昀 䄀爀琀攀挀栀漀欀攀猀ഊ http://www.medievalcookery.com/images/artechokes.jpg ਀ഊ- Doc ਀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀഊ Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers) ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 匀甀渀Ⰰ ㈀　 䘀攀戀 ㈀　　㔀 ㄀㔀㨀㌀㔀㨀㌀㈀ ⴀ　㔀　　ഊFrom: Johnna Holloway ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 刀攀㨀 䌀漀昀昀礀渀猀ഊTo: Cooks within the SCA ਀ഊKaren Hess in her commentary to Martha Washington's Booke of Cookery writes that ਀∀䄀 挀漀昀昀椀渀 椀猀 愀 洀漀氀搀 洀愀搀攀 漀昀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀⸀ 琀栀攀 眀漀爀搀 挀漀洀攀猀 昀爀漀洀ഊOld French cofin and finally from Greek cophinos, meaning basket ਀⠀伀䔀䐀⤀⸀ 圀栀椀氀攀 琀栀攀礀 挀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 愀渀礀 猀栀愀瀀攀Ⰰ 琀栀攀礀 猀攀攀洀 琀漀 栀愀瘀攀 戀攀攀渀 爀攀挀琀愀渀最甀氀愀爀ഊas often as not, judging by the occasional specification for a round coffin, ਀愀猀 椀渀 琀栀椀猀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀⸀ 吀栀攀礀 眀攀爀攀 挀氀漀猀攀搀 甀渀氀攀猀猀 搀椀爀攀挀琀攀搀 漀琀栀攀爀眀椀猀攀⸀∀ഊPage 83. ਀ഊJohnnae ਀ഊ>> While I understand that a coffyn is rectangular in ਀㸀㸀 猀栀愀瀀攀Ⰰ 栀攀渀挀攀 琀栀攀 琀爀愀渀猀昀攀爀攀渀挀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 眀漀爀搀 琀漀 琀栀攀 戀漀砀 眀攀 戀甀爀礀 瀀攀漀瀀氀攀ഊ>> in. ਀㸀㸀ഊ>> Stefan ਀ഊ> Stefan, can you tell us more about your reasoning in reaching this ਀㸀 挀漀渀挀氀甀猀椀漀渀㼀 䤀✀洀 渀漀琀 猀甀爀攀 䤀 戀甀礀 琀栀攀 爀攀挀琀愀渀最甀氀愀爀 瀀椀攀 挀漀昀昀椀渀 椀搀攀愀㨀 琀栀攀爀攀ഊ> are illustrations of what appear to be pies in various manuscripts, ਀㸀 愀渀搀 琀栀攀礀 猀攀攀洀 琀漀 洀攀 琀漀 洀漀猀琀氀礀 爀漀甀渀搀 漀爀 攀氀氀椀瀀琀椀挀愀氀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀 䤀 琀栀椀渀欀 ⠀愀渀搀 䤀 挀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 眀爀漀渀最 栀攀爀攀⤀ 琀栀愀琀 眀攀 戀甀爀礀 瀀攀漀瀀氀攀 椀渀 氀漀渀最Ⰰഊ> rectangular boxes because, well, a human body is oblong (spherical ਀㸀 瀀攀攀爀猀 渀漀琀眀椀琀栀猀琀愀渀搀椀渀最⤀⸀ 䄀 挀漀昀昀椀渀Ⰰ 琀栀漀甀最栀Ⰰ 椀猀 猀椀洀瀀氀礀 愀 挀愀猀攀Ⰰ 甀猀甀愀氀氀礀ഊ> roughly in the shape of whatever it's supposed to contain, so it can ਀㸀 戀攀 愀渀礀 猀栀愀瀀攀 愀渀搀 猀琀椀氀氀 戀攀 愀 挀漀昀昀椀渀Ⰰ 愀猀 昀愀爀 愀猀 䤀 欀渀漀眀㨀 琀栀攀 渀愀洀攀 搀漀攀猀ഊ> not directly imply oblong-ness. ਀㸀 䄀搀愀洀愀渀琀椀甀猀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:45:27 -0500 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀倀栀氀椀瀀∀ 㰀瀀栀氀椀瀀 愀琀 㤀㤀洀愀椀渀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns ਀吀漀㨀 ∀䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀∀ 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀㸀 䬀愀爀攀渀 䠀攀猀猀 椀渀 栀攀爀 挀漀洀洀攀渀琀愀爀礀 琀漀 䴀愀爀琀栀愀 圀愀猀栀椀渀最琀漀渀✀猀ഊ> Booke of Cookery writes that ਀㸀 ∀䄀 挀漀昀昀椀渀 椀猀 愀 洀漀氀搀 洀愀搀攀 漀昀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀⸀ 琀栀攀 眀漀爀搀 挀漀洀攀猀 昀爀漀洀ഊ> Old French cofin and finally from Greek cophinos, meaning basket ਀㸀 ⠀伀䔀䐀⤀⸀ 圀栀椀氀攀 琀栀攀礀 挀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 愀渀礀 猀栀愀瀀攀Ⰰ 琀栀攀礀 猀攀攀洀 琀漀 栀愀瘀攀 戀攀攀渀 爀攀挀琀愀渀最甀氀愀爀ഊ> as often as not, judging by the occasional specification for a round coffin, ਀㸀 愀猀 椀渀 琀栀椀猀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀⸀ 吀栀攀礀 眀攀爀攀 挀氀漀猀攀搀 甀渀氀攀猀猀 搀椀爀攀挀琀攀搀 漀琀栀攀爀眀椀猀攀⸀∀ഊ> Page 83. ਀㸀ഊ> Johnnae ਀ഊDunno how much can be read into an instruction in terms of implying other ਀挀漀昀昀椀渀猀 眀攀爀攀 昀爀攀焀甀攀渀琀氀礀 爀攀挀琀愀渀最甀氀愀爀⸀ 䤀琀 猀攀攀洀猀 琀漀 洀攀 琀栀愀琀 椀昀 琀栀攀礀 挀漀甀氀搀 愀渀搀ഊwere often any shape, the choice might as easily be between round and oval, ਀愀猀 漀瀀瀀漀猀攀搀 琀漀 挀椀爀挀甀氀愀爀 愀渀搀 爀攀挀琀氀椀渀攀愀爀⸀ 䤀渀 漀琀栀攀爀眀漀爀搀猀Ⰰ 甀猀椀渀最 愀 挀漀昀昀椀渀ഊfrequently to make, say, a roasted chicken, it might make sense to normally ਀栀愀瘀攀 愀渀 漀瘀愀氀 猀栀愀瀀攀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 椀昀 漀渀攀 眀攀爀攀 搀漀椀渀最 猀漀洀攀琀栀椀渀最 攀氀猀攀Ⰰ 眀栀攀爀攀 礀漀甀 眀愀渀琀攀搀ഊto assure the ingredients were cooked evenly- an eggy sort of thing, ਀瀀攀爀栀愀瀀猀ⴀ 礀漀甀 洀椀最栀琀 猀瀀攀挀椀昀礀 爀漀甀渀搀Ⰰ 猀漀 琀栀愀琀 愀氀氀 愀爀攀愀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀 椀琀攀洀 眀攀爀攀 攀瘀攀渀氀礀ഊcooked. The rectilinear types tend to have the corners more cooked than the ਀挀攀渀琀攀爀猀Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 椀猀 昀椀渀攀 昀漀爀 洀愀渀礀 琀栀椀渀最猀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 洀椀最栀琀 渀漀琀 戀攀 昀椀渀攀 昀漀爀 愀渀ഊamalgamation that is a bit more sensitive to temperature and cooking time ਀瘀愀爀椀愀渀琀猀⸀ 䤀渀 洀愀渀礀 挀愀猀攀猀Ⰰ 洀攀搀椀攀瘀愀氀 昀漀氀欀猀 搀椀搀渀✀琀 渀攀挀攀猀猀愀爀椀氀礀 欀渀漀眀 圀䠀夀ഊsomething worked best a particular way, they just knew that it DID work best ਀愀 瀀愀爀琀椀挀甀氀愀爀 眀愀礀⸀ 嘀攀爀礀 瀀爀愀挀琀椀挀愀氀Ⰰ 椀昀 渀漀琀 琀栀攀漀爀攀琀椀挀氀礀 猀漀甀渀搀Ⰰ 瀀攀漀瀀氀攀⸀ഊ ਀匀愀椀渀琀 倀栀氀椀瀀ⰀഊCoD ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 䴀漀渀Ⰰ ㈀㄀ 䘀攀戀 ㈀　　㔀 　㄀㨀㈀㌀㨀　㈀ ⴀ　㠀　　 ⠀倀匀吀⤀ഊFrom: Huette von Ahrens ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 刀攀㨀 䌀漀昀昀礀渀猀ഊTo: Cooks within the SCA ਀ഊ--- Stefan li Rous wrote: ਀㸀 伀欀愀礀Ⰰ 琀栀椀猀 搀漀攀猀 洀愀欀攀 猀攀渀猀攀⸀ 䄀渀礀漀渀攀 栀愀瘀攀 琀栀攀 伀䔀䐀ഊ> definition handy for "coffyn" or "coffin"? ਀ഊ[ME. cofin, coffyn, etc., a. OF. cofin, coffin, ਀氀椀琀琀氀攀 戀愀猀欀攀琀Ⰰ 挀愀猀攀Ⰰ 攀琀挀⸀Ⰰ 愀搀⸀ 䰀⸀ 挀漀瀀栀椀渀ⴀ甀猀ഊ(later cofin-us), a. Gr. basket.] ਀ഊ 4. Cookery. a. A mould of paste for a pie; ਀琀栀攀 挀爀甀猀琀 漀昀 愀 瀀椀攀⸀ 伀戀猀⸀ഊ ਀   挀㄀㐀㈀　 䰀椀戀攀爀 䌀漀挀漀爀甀洀 ⠀㄀㠀㘀㈀⤀ 㐀㄀ 䴀愀欀攀 愀 挀漀昀礀渀攀 愀猀ഊto smalle pye. c1420 Cookery Bk. 45 Make fayre ਀瀀愀猀琀 漀昀 昀氀漀眀爀攀 ☀ 眀愀琀攀爀Ⰰ 匀甀最爀攀Ⰰ ☀ 匀愀昀爀漀甀渀Ⰰ ☀ 匀愀氀琀㬀ഊ& an make fayre round cofyns δer-of. 1588 ਀匀䠀䄀䬀䔀匀⸀ 吀椀琀⸀ 䄀⸀ 嘀⸀ 椀椀⸀ ㄀㠀㤀 伀昀 琀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀攀 愀 挀漀昀昀攀渀ഊI will reare. a1654 SELDEN Table-t. (Arb.) 33 The ਀䌀漀昀昀椀渀 漀昀 漀甀爀 䌀栀爀椀猀琀洀愀猀 倀椀攀猀 椀渀 猀栀愀瀀攀 氀漀渀最Ⰰ 椀猀 椀渀ഊimitation of the Cratch. 1750 E. SMITH Compl. ਀䠀漀甀猀攀眀椀昀攀 ㄀㔀㜀 匀攀愀猀漀渀 礀漀甀爀 氀愀洀戀 眀椀琀栀 瀀攀瀀瀀攀爀Ⰰഊsalt..So put it into your coffin. ਀ഊ b. A pie-dish or mould. Obs. ਀ഊ 1580 in Wadley Bristol Wills (1886) 225 Twelve ਀瘀漀礀搀攀爀猀㬀 愀 䌀甀猀琀攀爀搀 挀漀昀昀礀渀⸀ ㄀㔀㤀㘀 匀䠀䄀䬀䔀匀⸀ 吀愀洀⸀ 匀栀爀⸀ഊIV. iii. 82. 1602 PLAT Delightes for Ladies, ਀䌀漀昀昀椀渀猀 漀昀 眀栀椀琀攀 瀀氀愀琀攀⸀ 愀㄀㘀㘀㈀ 䠀䔀夀䰀䤀一 䰀愀甀搀 䤀䤀⸀ ㌀　㈀ഊWhich Notes..he kept in the Coffin of a Pye, ਀眀栀椀挀栀 栀愀搀 戀攀攀渀 猀攀渀琀 栀椀洀 戀礀 栀椀猀 䴀漀琀栀攀爀⸀ഊ ਀䠀甀攀琀琀攀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:50:37 -0500 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀一愀渀挀礀 䬀椀攀氀∀ 㰀渀愀渀挀礀开欀椀攀氀 愀琀 栀漀琀洀愀椀氀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊSubject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns ਀吀漀㨀 猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最ഊ ਀䤀 搀漀渀✀琀 眀愀渀琀 琀漀 猀愀礀 琀栀愀琀 瀀椀攀 挀爀甀猀琀猀 眀攀爀攀渀✀琀 洀愀搀攀 琀栀椀猀 眀愀礀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 䤀✀洀 渀漀琀 猀甀爀攀ഊwhy one would want to make the crusts this way. I've worked with the ਀猀琀甀昀昀ⴀⴀⴀⴀ椀琀✀猀 戀愀猀椀挀愀氀氀礀 挀氀愀礀Ⰰ 漀爀 倀氀愀礀ⴀ搀漀Ⰰ 漀爀 匀挀甀氀瀀攀礀 椀渀 挀漀渀猀椀猀琀攀渀挀礀Ⰰ 愀渀搀ഊit's quite easy to roll out a bottom of whatever shape you like, roll out a ਀猀琀爀椀瀀 琀栀愀琀✀猀 琀栀攀 猀椀搀攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 瀀椀渀挀栀 愀渀搀 ∀最氀甀攀∀ 椀琀 琀漀最攀琀栀攀爀⸀  䤀昀 礀漀甀 眀愀渀琀 琀漀ഊbake it blind, so you can put your blackbirds in later, you can fill it with ਀昀氀漀甀爀Ⰰ 漀爀 戀爀攀愀搀⸀ഊ ਀一愀渀挀礀 䬀椀攀氀ഊ ਀㸀 䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀倀栀椀氀 吀爀漀礀 ⼀ 䜀⸀ 吀愀挀椀琀甀猀 䄀搀愀洀愀渀琀椀甀猀∀ 㰀愀搀愀洀愀渀琀椀甀猀⸀洀愀最椀猀琀攀爀 愀琀 瘀攀爀椀稀漀渀⸀渀攀琀㸀ഊ> To: Cooks within the SCA ਀㸀 匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀䔀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 刀攀㨀 䌀漀昀昀礀渀猀ഊ> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:59:09 -0500 ਀㸀ഊ> Also sprach Nancy Kiel: ਀㸀㸀 䄀氀猀漀Ⰰ 椀昀 琀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 椀猀 琀栀椀挀欀 攀渀漀甀最栀 琀漀 猀琀愀渀搀 漀渀 椀琀猀 漀眀渀Ⰰ 礀漀甀 搀漀渀✀琀 渀攀攀搀 愀ഊ>> form. ਀㸀ഊ> True, but I was just talking about using a form for mass-producing ਀㸀 椀搀攀渀琀椀挀愀氀 猀栀攀氀氀猀 猀漀洀攀眀栀愀琀 洀漀爀攀 焀甀椀挀欀氀礀 琀栀愀渀 礀漀甀 洀椀最栀琀 漀琀栀攀爀眀椀猀攀⸀ 䄀琀 氀攀愀猀琀ഊ> that's the rationale in modern pork pie production when the wooden block ਀㸀 昀漀爀洀 椀猀 甀猀攀搀 ⠀琀栀攀爀攀 愀爀攀 愀氀猀漀 攀砀琀爀攀洀攀氀礀 昀愀渀挀礀 栀椀渀最攀搀 洀漀氀搀猀 礀漀甀 挀愀渀 戀甀礀 昀漀爀ഊ> larger pies and pates, but that's not really to address mass production ਀㸀 椀猀猀甀攀猀⤀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀 吀栀攀 眀愀礀 椀琀 眀漀爀欀猀 椀猀Ⰰ 礀漀甀 爀漀氀氀 礀漀甀爀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 椀渀琀漀 愀 猀洀漀漀琀栀 戀愀氀氀 ⠀栀愀瘀椀渀最 昀椀爀猀琀ഊ> determined, more or less, how much you'll need to do the job, either ਀㸀 琀栀爀漀甀最栀 瀀愀猀琀 攀砀瀀攀爀椀攀渀挀攀 漀爀 愀 琀爀椀愀氀 愀琀琀攀洀瀀琀⤀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 琀栀攀渀 猀焀甀漀漀猀栀 ⠀琀栀愀琀 椀猀 愀ഊ> technical term) the wooden block, which resembles a hockey puck on a stick, ਀㸀 眀椀琀栀 琀栀攀 猀琀椀挀欀 瀀爀漀琀爀甀搀椀渀最 昀爀漀洀 漀渀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 昀氀愀琀 猀甀爀昀愀挀攀猀Ⰰ 椀渀琀漀 琀栀攀 搀漀甀最栀Ⰰഊ> which spreads it out and forces the surface of the dough ball to begin to ਀㸀 眀爀愀瀀 椀琀猀攀氀昀 愀爀漀甀渀搀 琀栀攀 戀氀漀挀欀 愀渀搀 甀瀀 琀栀攀 猀椀搀攀猀⸀ 夀漀甀 琀栀攀渀 瀀愀琀 琀栀攀 猀椀搀攀猀Ⰰഊ> turning the whole thing occasionally via the stick, a la a potter's wheel, ਀㸀 甀渀琀椀氀 琀栀攀礀 挀漀洀攀 攀瘀攀渀氀礀 甀瀀 琀栀攀 猀椀搀攀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀 昀漀爀洀Ⰰ 琀愀欀椀渀最 漀渀 椀琀猀 猀栀愀瀀攀⸀ 夀漀甀ഊ> have the option of trimming the sides to smooth the edges. ਀㸀ഊ> To remove the dough from the form, you roll it on its edge on your pastry ਀㸀 戀漀愀爀搀Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 琀栀椀渀猀 椀琀 猀氀椀最栀琀氀礀 愀渀搀Ⰰ 挀漀渀猀攀焀甀攀渀琀氀礀Ⰰ 椀渀挀爀攀愀猀攀猀 椀琀猀ഊ> circumference and diameter accordingly, which tends to create a space ਀㸀 戀攀琀眀攀攀渀 琀栀攀 昀漀爀洀 愀渀搀 琀栀攀 搀漀甀最栀 ⠀栀漀琀ⴀ眀愀琀攀爀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 椀猀渀✀琀 猀琀椀挀欀礀⤀Ⰰ 洀愀欀椀渀最 琀栀攀ഊ> form easy to remove with a twist of the stick. The pastry will also harden ਀㸀 瀀爀攀琀琀礀 搀爀愀洀愀琀椀挀愀氀氀礀 愀猀 椀琀 挀漀漀氀猀 漀昀昀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀 一漀眀Ⰰ 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 渀漀 挀漀洀瀀攀氀氀椀渀最 攀瘀椀搀攀渀挀攀 琀漀 猀甀最最攀猀琀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀椀猀 洀攀琀栀漀搀 眀愀猀 甀猀攀搀 椀渀ഊ> period, nor that anything like a hot-water dough appears until the ਀㸀 猀攀瘀攀渀琀攀攀渀琀栀 挀攀渀琀甀爀礀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 椀琀✀猀 琀攀洀瀀琀椀渀最 琀漀 愀猀猀甀洀攀 猀甀挀栀 愀 琀栀椀渀最 挀漀甀氀搀 栀愀瘀攀ഊ> been done (whether or not it actually was is another story), since the ਀㸀 琀攀挀栀渀漀氀漀最礀 挀氀攀愀爀氀礀 攀砀椀猀琀攀搀 昀漀爀 漀琀栀攀爀 琀礀瀀攀猀 漀昀 洀愀渀甀昀愀挀琀甀爀攀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀 䄀猀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 焀甀攀猀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 琀栀攀 琀栀椀挀欀渀攀猀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 愀渀搀 眀栀攀琀栀攀爀 礀漀甀 渀攀攀搀ഊ> support, it also becomes more stable when the pastry is filled with ਀㸀 猀漀洀攀琀栀椀渀最 昀愀椀爀氀礀 猀漀氀椀搀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 愀 氀椀搀 猀攀愀氀攀搀 椀渀 瀀氀愀挀攀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀 䄀搀愀洀愀渀琀椀甀猀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:39:29 -0800 (PST) ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 猀栀攀 渀漀琀 㰀愀琀愀洀愀最愀樀漀戀甀 愀琀 礀愀栀漀漀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊSubject: [Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns ਀吀漀㨀 猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最ഊ ਀䈀攀愀爀 ⠀爀攀昀攀爀爀椀渀最 琀漀 琀栀攀 椀渀琀攀爀攀猀琀椀渀最 挀漀渀瘀攀爀猀愀琀椀漀渀 眀椀琀栀 䄀搀愀洀愀渀琀椀甀猀⤀ 愀猀欀攀搀㨀 ഊDo we know anything about the shape of raised coffins prior to 1600? Do we have any references as to their place in a feast? What do we know about raised coffins other than the recipes? If one has trappes, why raise a free standing pie shell rather than form the shell inside or outside of the trappe ? ਀ഊI don't have any of the sources to hand at the moment, working from ਀洀攀洀漀爀礀Ⰰ 戀甀琀⸀⸀ഊ ਀∀䤀昀Ⰰ∀ 䤀渀搀攀攀搀⸀ 吀栀椀渀欀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀 猀漀氀甀琀椀漀渀猀 琀漀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀 瀀爀漀戀氀攀洀猀℀ 爀愀椀猀攀搀 瀀椀攀猀Ⰰ ഊas far as I can tell, were expedient to replace pans and dishes, ਀愀氀琀栀漀甀最栀 渀漀眀 琀栀攀礀✀爀攀 漀昀琀攀渀 戀愀欀攀搀 椀渀 瀀愀渀猀⸀ ⠀欀攀攀瀀 椀渀 洀椀渀搀 琀栀愀琀 渀漀琀 ഊeverybody had the resources a court cook like Taillevent had. Since ਀琀栀攀 爀漀礀愀氀 欀椀琀挀栀攀渀 愀氀眀愀礀猀 渀攀攀搀攀搀 琀漀 昀攀攀搀 氀漀琀猀 漀昀 瀀攀漀瀀氀攀Ⰰ 栀攀 眀漀甀氀搀 栀愀瘀攀 ഊhad more pans on hand than most of his contemporaries) Using a trap is ਀攀愀猀椀攀爀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 渀漀琀 渀攀挀攀猀猀愀爀礀⸀ 愀渀搀 愀昀琀攀爀 愀氀氀Ⰰ 眀栀礀 瀀甀琀 栀漀琀 昀漀漀搀 漀渀 愀 挀漀氀搀 ഊdish when you can send it out in nice filling pastry that won't suck ਀琀栀攀 栀攀愀琀 爀椀最栀琀 漀甀琀 漀昀 椀琀㼀ഊ ਀䤀 栀愀搀 愀 瘀攀爀礀 最漀漀搀 挀漀氀氀攀挀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 愀爀琀椀挀氀攀猀 漀渀 昀漀漀搀 愀渀搀 琀爀愀瘀攀氀椀渀最 椀琀攀洀猀 ഊpublished as a memoriam for a Canadian archeologist/anthropologist- ca ਀㄀㤀㔀　✀猀Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 椀渀挀氀甀搀攀搀 愀 瀀爀攀眀愀爀 猀琀甀搀礀 昀爀漀洀 愀 倀漀氀椀猀栀 瀀攀愀猀愀渀琀 瘀椀氀氀愀最攀 漀渀 ഊhousehold distribution of cooking utensils. It found that most ਀栀漀甀猀攀栀漀氀搀猀 栀愀搀 ㈀ⴀ㔀 瀀愀渀猀 漀昀 搀椀昀昀攀爀攀渀琀 猀椀稀攀猀Ⰰ 猀洀愀氀氀 琀漀 洀攀搀椀甀洀Ⰰ 瘀攀爀礀 猀洀愀氀氀 ഊhouseholds (widows, etc) had just one or two small pots, and wealthy ਀栀漀甀猀攀栀漀氀搀猀 愀渀搀 氀愀爀最攀 昀愀爀洀猀 眀椀琀栀 洀愀渀礀 眀漀爀欀攀爀猀 栀愀搀 㠀ⴀ㄀㈀ 瀀漀琀猀Ⰰ 椀渀挀氀甀搀椀渀最 ഊ2-3 large ones and a few special purpose pans. occasions like ਀栀漀氀椀搀愀礀猀 愀渀搀 眀攀搀搀椀渀最猀 眀攀爀攀 挀漀洀洀甀渀椀琀礀 攀昀昀漀爀琀猀㨀 琀栀攀 栀漀猀琀 瀀爀漀瘀椀搀攀搀 琀栀攀 ഊfood, but borrowed pots to cook it in. (loaning these pots was a social ਀搀甀琀礀 愀昀昀椀爀洀椀渀最 挀漀洀洀甀渀愀氀 爀攀氀愀琀椀漀渀猀 愀渀搀 洀甀琀甀愀氀 搀攀瀀攀渀搀攀渀挀礀Ⰰ 愀猀 眀攀氀氀 愀猀 愀 ഊcustom enabling suitable display for a celebration, comparable to the ਀戀漀爀爀漀眀攀搀 氀礀椀渀最ⴀ椀渀 最攀愀爀 最愀琀栀攀爀攀搀 昀爀漀洀 瘀愀爀椀漀甀猀 渀漀戀氀攀 挀漀渀渀攀挀琀椀漀渀猀 礀漀甀 眀椀氀氀 ഊsee in the Lisle letters.) ਀ഊthe thickness of the pastry and whether you need ਀㸀 猀甀瀀瀀漀爀琀Ⰰ 椀琀 愀氀猀漀 戀攀挀漀洀攀猀 洀漀爀攀 猀琀愀戀氀攀 眀栀攀渀 琀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 椀猀 昀椀氀氀攀搀 眀椀琀栀ഊ> something fairly solid, and a lid sealed in place... ਀ഊMost modern raised pies, pork pies being the most common, are pretty ਀洀甀挀栀 愀 最愀氀愀渀琀椀渀攀Ⰰ 椀⸀攀⸀Ⰰ 愀爀攀 戀愀欀攀搀 眀椀琀栀 愀 搀爀礀 昀椀氀氀椀渀最Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 椀猀 琀栀攀渀 ഊsealed with a jellied stock poured in hot. (hence the required hole cut ਀椀渀 琀栀攀 琀漀瀀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀ⴀ礀漀甀 爀攀洀漀瘀攀 椀琀Ⰰ 昀椀氀氀 琀栀攀 瀀椀攀 眀椀琀栀 猀琀漀挀欀Ⰰ 琀栀攀渀 爀攀瀀氀愀挀攀 ഊit) This does slow down spoilage, by sealing air away from the food, in ਀琀栀攀 猀愀洀攀 眀愀礀 氀愀琀攀爀 瀀椀攀猀 愀爀攀 昀椀氀氀攀搀 眀椀琀栀 戀甀琀琀攀爀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 漀昀 挀漀甀爀猀攀Ⰰ 愀猀 瀀愀琀攀猀 ഊand other cooked meats are sealed with lard in charcuteries. This in ਀椀琀猀攀氀昀 椀猀 愀 瀀爀攀琀琀礀 最漀漀搀 愀爀最甀洀攀渀琀 琀栀愀琀 椀琀✀猀 愀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀 瀀爀愀挀琀椀挀攀ⴀ ഊpreservation methods developed pre-refrigeration are probably survivals ਀昀爀漀洀 洀攀搀椀攀瘀愀氀 琀椀洀攀猀⸀ ⠀琀栀椀渀欀 栀漀眀 瀀漀瀀甀氀愀爀 最愀氀愀渀琀椀渀攀猀 眀攀爀攀 椀渀 栀椀最栀 ഊmedieval and renaissance cookbooks, often using vinegar or wine as some ਀瀀愀爀琀 漀昀 琀栀攀 氀椀焀甀椀搀⸀  琀栀攀礀 搀椀搀渀✀琀 一䔀䔀䐀 琀漀 戀攀 洀愀搀攀 椀渀 愀 昀愀渀挀礀 洀漀氀搀Ⰰ 琀栀攀礀 ഊcould just as easily be made in a coffyn.) Pouring in liquid after ਀戀愀欀椀渀最 愀氀猀漀 昀氀愀瘀漀爀猀 愀渀搀 洀漀椀猀琀攀渀猀 琀栀攀 挀爀甀猀琀 愀猀 眀攀氀氀 愀猀 琀栀攀 昀椀氀氀椀渀最Ⰰ ഊsimilar technique to pouring the syrup on baklava -try eating a pork or chicken pie without that jelly! Also, putting the lid on, sealed with water ( and flour, for choice) DOES help keep the crust from flopping before it's baked. ਀ഊThis crust needs to be about 1/4 inch thick or more to work. ਀䔀氀椀稀愀戀攀琀栀 䐀愀瘀椀搀✀猀 䔀渀最氀椀猀栀 戀漀漀欀 栀愀搀 琀栀攀 戀攀猀琀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀 椀✀瘀攀 甀猀攀搀 昀漀爀 愀 ഊtraditional raised pork pie with hot water crust- I manage to do it ਀眀椀琀栀漀甀琀 愀 瀀愀渀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 䤀 愀洀 渀漀琀漀爀椀漀甀猀氀礀 愀氀氀 琀栀甀洀戀猀⸀  ⠀䤀  甀猀攀 栀攀爀 猀甀最最攀猀琀椀漀渀 ഊof forming it first on an upside down loaf pan, but it can be done ਀昀爀攀攀猀琀礀氀攀⸀⸀⸀樀甀猀琀 渀漀琀 戀礀 洀攀⤀ഊ ਀琀栀攀 氀漀渀最 漀戀氀漀渀最 猀栀愀瀀攀 椀猀 瘀攀爀礀 瀀爀愀挀琀椀挀愀氀Ⰰ 猀椀渀挀攀 椀琀 礀椀攀氀搀猀 洀愀渀礀 ഊattractive cross sections (slices) with minimal crust, but the filling ਀椀猀渀✀琀 猀漀 栀攀愀瘀礀 椀琀 戀爀攀愀欀猀 甀渀搀攀爀 椀琀猀 漀眀渀 眀攀椀最栀琀Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 眀攀爀攀 搀漀甀戀琀氀攀猀猀  ഊconcerns in period too. ਀ഊPies may have been molded, when possible, but most of what I've seen ਀椀渀搀椀挀愀琀攀猀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀礀 愀爀攀 戀甀椀氀琀 甀瀀 漀爀 爀愀椀猀攀搀㨀 氀愀琀攀爀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀猀 猀甀最最攀猀琀 愀 ഊstrip of paper attached around the upper part to stabilize it, and I ਀栀愀瘀攀 猀攀攀渀 愀 ∀琀眀椀猀琀∀ 漀昀 栀愀礀 漀爀 猀琀爀愀眀 猀甀最最攀猀琀攀搀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀  瀀甀爀瀀漀猀攀 椀渀 漀琀栀攀爀 ഊdescriptions. Baking flour in a shell is sometimes suggested the same ਀眀愀礀 眀攀 甀猀攀 戀攀愀渀猀 琀漀 戀愀欀攀 愀 戀氀椀渀搀ⴀ愀猀 昀漀爀 氀椀瘀攀 戀椀爀搀猀 椀渀 愀 瀀椀攀ⴀ 愀渀搀 ഊthere's no reason to suppose the flour was tossed afterward, since ਀琀栀攀爀攀 愀爀攀 猀攀瘀攀爀愀氀 甀猀攀猀 昀漀爀 琀漀愀猀琀攀搀 昀氀漀甀爀⸀ ⠀愀渀搀 爀椀挀攀⤀ഊ ਀∀猀漀洀攀 洀愀渀甀猀挀爀椀瀀琀ഊilluminations that show free-standing pastries: I'd guess (scale ਀戀攀椀渀最 眀栀愀琀 椀琀 椀猀 椀渀 猀甀挀栀 搀爀愀眀椀渀最猀⤀ 琀栀愀琀 愀 瀀椀攀 椀渀 愀 洀攀搀椀攀瘀愀氀 昀攀愀猀琀ഊmight have been anywhere from maybe six inches high and ten inches ਀愀挀爀漀猀猀Ⰰ 琀漀 氀愀爀最攀爀Ⰰ 氀漀漀欀椀渀最 瘀愀最甀攀氀礀 氀椀欀攀 愀 栀愀琀戀漀砀 眀椀琀栀 愀 猀氀椀最栀琀氀礀ഊdomed, but inset/flanged lid. " ਀ഊsome bird shaped pies were simply formed around the bird to be baked; ਀琀栀椀猀 椀猀 攀猀瀀攀挀椀愀氀氀礀 最漀漀搀 昀漀爀 愀 戀漀渀攀搀 猀琀甀昀昀攀搀 戀椀爀搀⸀ 琀栀攀 昀氀愀渀最攀 椀猀 琀栀攀 ഊdoubled crust that holds it together. I think I've seen this in ਀椀氀氀甀猀琀爀愀琀椀漀渀猀 ⴀ瀀爀漀戀愀戀氀礀 琀栀攀 猀愀洀攀 漀渀攀猀℀ 䤀琀 眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 爀攀氀愀琀椀瘀攀氀礀 攀愀猀礀 琀漀 ഊdo with the pretty mosaic of arranged multiple meats for a galantine ਀琀漀漀Ⰰ 猀椀渀挀攀 琀栀攀 挀爀甀猀琀 眀漀甀氀搀 欀攀攀瀀 愀 洀漀甀渀搀 漀昀 洀攀愀琀猀 琀漀最攀琀栀攀爀 昀漀爀 戀愀欀椀渀最Ⰰ ഊand the jelly stabilizes the whole thing afterward. The construction ਀椀猀 甀猀攀昀甀氀 眀栀攀渀 礀漀甀✀爀攀 搀攀愀氀椀渀最 眀椀琀栀 琀栀攀 洀椀砀攀搀 最愀洀攀 ∀戀愀最∀  爀攀猀甀氀琀 昀爀漀洀 愀 ഊrecreational hunt, which may not yield enough ducks or quail for a ਀猀攀瀀愀爀愀琀攀 搀椀猀栀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 瀀氀攀渀琀礀Ⰰ 挀漀洀戀椀渀攀搀 眀椀琀栀 琀栀攀 爀愀戀戀椀琀猀 愀渀搀 猀漀洀攀 栀愀洀Ⰰ ഊchicken, etc, for pies to supplement the roast. Raised pies lend ਀琀栀攀洀猀攀氀瘀攀猀 琀漀 搀攀挀漀爀愀琀椀漀渀 漀甀琀猀椀搀攀 琀漀漀ⴀ 挀漀愀琀猀 漀昀 愀爀洀猀Ⰰ 昀氀漀眀攀爀猀Ⰰ 攀琀挀Ⰰ 挀愀渀 ഊbe cut out of leftover paste and laid on top and "glued" to the sides ਀眀椀琀栀 攀最最Ⰰ 最椀氀搀攀搀 漀爀 漀琀栀攀爀眀椀猀攀 挀漀氀漀爀攀搀⸀ 刀攀洀攀洀戀攀爀 琀漀漀Ⰰ 琀栀攀猀攀 瀀椀攀猀 愀爀攀 ഊserved COLD, so are much more stable (and portable) than when hot, and, of course, can be baked and kept for use as needed, hence the preservation/sealing angle. ਀ഊ Martino's live birds in a pie uses a trappe to form the shell ਀愀渀搀 愀 昀椀氀氀椀渀最 漀昀 昀氀漀甀爀 琀漀 栀漀氀搀 琀栀攀 猀栀愀瀀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 琀漀瀀 挀爀甀猀琀⸀ 圀栀礀 爀愀椀猀攀 愀ഊcoffin, rather then mold a shell? Habit? even baking? lack of a suitable mold? ਀ഊ"aren't there menu references and recipes to Great Pies and Pies de Paris in ਀昀椀昀琀攀攀渀琀栀 挀攀渀琀甀爀礀 䔀渀最氀愀渀搀㼀  䤀 眀愀猀 猀琀爀甀挀欀 戀礀 琀栀攀 愀戀猀攀渀挀攀 漀昀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀猀 椀渀 ഊearlier English sources, while Chiquart and Tallevent mention these pies, and give fairly detailed instructions for, at least, the fillings. ਀ഊOne could argue the 15th century English recipe for a Grete Pye is an ਀攀瘀漀氀甀琀椀漀渀Ⰰ 漀爀 ⠀愀渀搀 洀漀爀攀 氀椀欀攀氀礀⤀ 椀洀瀀漀爀琀愀琀椀漀渀 昀爀漀洀 琀栀攀 䌀漀渀琀椀渀攀渀琀⸀∀ഊ ਀䌀愀渀✀琀 挀栀攀挀欀 爀攀昀攀爀攀渀挀攀猀 漀渀 䔀渀最氀愀渀搀✀猀 猀甀洀瀀琀甀愀爀礀 氀愀眀猀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 琀栀攀 最爀攀愀琀 瀀椀攀 ഊwas a fine way to get around restrictions on the number of dishes - ਀挀漀渀猀瀀椀挀甀漀甀猀 挀漀渀猀甀洀瀀琀椀漀渀 戀攀椀渀最 瘀攀爀礀 瀀漀瀀甀氀愀爀Ⰰ 攀猀瀀攀挀椀愀氀氀礀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 ഊmerchant class primarily affected by them. ਀ഊNot entirely apropos, but possibly a survival of the towers and great ਀瀀礀攀猀㬀㨀⤀ 䔀渀最氀愀渀搀✀猀 琀爀愀搀椀琀椀漀渀愀氀 氀愀礀攀爀攀搀 眀攀搀搀椀渀最 挀愀欀攀 眀愀猀 愀挀琀甀愀氀氀礀 猀攀瘀攀爀愀氀 ഊdifferent cakes, one to be eaten fresh, longer lasting cakes to send to ਀愀戀猀攀渀琀 昀爀椀攀渀搀猀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 琀栀攀 琀漀瀀 愀 昀爀甀椀琀挀愀欀攀 琀漀 戀攀 猀栀愀爀攀搀 漀渀 琀栀攀 昀椀爀猀琀 ഊanniversary- lots of ceremony involved in deconstructing it-I think ਀䔀氀椀稀愀 䄀挀琀漀渀 栀愀搀 琀栀愀琀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀⸀ഊ ਀䜀椀猀攀氀攀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀吀攀爀爀礀 䐀攀挀欀攀爀∀ 㰀琀⸀搀⸀搀攀挀欀攀爀 愀琀 眀漀爀氀搀渀攀琀⸀愀琀琀⸀渀攀琀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns ਀吀漀㨀 ∀䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀∀ 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀㸀 䈀攀愀爀 ⠀爀攀昀攀爀爀椀渀最 琀漀 琀栀攀 椀渀琀攀爀攀猀琀椀渀最 挀漀渀瘀攀爀猀愀琀椀漀渀 眀椀琀栀 愀搀愀洀愀渀琀椀甀猀⤀ 愀猀欀攀搀㨀ഊ> Do we know anything about ਀㸀 琀栀攀 猀栀愀瀀攀 漀昀 爀愀椀猀攀搀 挀漀昀昀椀渀猀 瀀爀椀漀爀 琀漀 ㄀㘀　　㼀 䐀漀 眀攀 栀愀瘀攀 愀渀礀 爀攀昀攀爀攀渀挀攀猀 愀猀 琀漀ഊ> their place in a feast? Whatdo we know about raised coffins other than the ਀㸀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀猀㼀ഊ> If one has trappes, why raise a free standing pie shell rather than form ਀㸀 琀栀攀 猀栀攀氀氀 椀渀猀椀搀攀 漀爀 漀甀琀猀椀搀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 琀爀愀瀀瀀攀 㼀ഊ> ਀㸀 䤀 搀漀渀✀琀 栀愀瘀攀 愀渀礀 漀昀 琀栀攀 猀漀甀爀挀攀猀 琀漀 栀愀渀搀 愀琀 琀栀攀 洀漀洀攀渀琀Ⰰ 眀漀爀欀椀渀最 昀爀漀洀ഊ> memory, but.. ਀ഊMy question is "what do we know?" I'm asking for facts, not speculation. ਀䤀 栀愀瘀攀 昀漀甀渀搀 琀栀愀琀 眀栀攀渀 䤀 最愀琀栀攀爀 昀愀挀琀猀 愀渀搀 攀砀愀洀椀渀攀 琀栀攀洀Ⰰ 琀栀攀礀 瀀爀漀搀甀挀攀 愀 瘀攀爀礀ഊdifferent picture from what "everyone knows." ਀ഊ> "If," indeed..think period solutons to period problems! raised pies, as ਀㸀 昀愀爀 愀猀 䤀 挀愀渀 琀攀氀氀Ⰰ 眀攀爀攀 攀砀瀀攀搀椀攀渀琀 琀漀 爀攀瀀氀愀挀攀 瀀愀渀猀 愀渀搀 搀椀猀栀攀猀Ⰰ 愀氀琀栀漀甀最栀 渀漀眀ഊ> they're often baked in pans. (keep in mind that not everybody had the ਀㸀 爀攀猀漀甀爀挀攀猀  愀 挀漀甀爀琀 挀漀漀欀 氀椀欀攀 吀愀椀氀氀攀瘀攀渀琀 栀愀搀⸀ 匀椀渀挀攀 琀栀攀 爀漀礀愀氀 欀椀琀挀栀攀渀ഊ> always needed to feed lots of people, he would have had more pans on hand ਀㸀 琀栀愀渀 洀漀猀琀 漀昀 栀椀猀 挀漀渀琀攀洀瀀漀爀愀爀椀攀猀⤀ 唀猀椀渀最 愀 琀爀愀瀀 椀猀 攀愀猀椀攀爀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 渀漀琀ഊ> necessary. and after all, why put hot food on a cold dish when you can ਀㸀 猀攀渀搀 椀琀 漀甀琀 椀渀  渀椀挀攀  昀椀氀椀渀最 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 琀栀愀琀 眀漀渀✀琀 猀甀挀欀 琀栀攀 栀攀愀琀 爀椀最栀琀 漀甀琀 漀昀ഊ> it? ਀ഊMost of the recipes we reference are from noble households which had to feed ਀氀漀琀猀 漀昀 瀀攀漀瀀氀攀⸀  吀栀攀礀 栀愀搀 挀漀渀猀椀搀攀爀愀戀氀攀 爀攀猀漀甀爀挀攀猀 椀渀挀氀甀搀椀渀最 眀攀氀氀 猀琀漀挀欀攀搀ഊkitchens and, often, well stocked bakeries. ਀ഊAs for the trappes, they are baking pans. The pastries are baked in them. ਀吀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 挀愀渀 攀椀琀栀攀爀 戀攀 爀攀洀漀瘀攀搀 昀爀漀洀 琀栀攀洀 漀爀 猀攀爀瘀攀搀 椀渀 琀栀攀洀⸀ഊ ਀㸀 䤀 栀愀搀 愀 瘀攀爀礀 最漀漀搀 挀漀氀氀攀挀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 愀爀琀椀挀氀攀猀 漀渀 昀漀漀搀 愀渀搀 琀爀愀瘀攀氀氀椀渀最 椀琀攀洀猀ഊ> published as a memoriam for a canadian arheologist/anthropologist- ca ਀㸀 ㄀㤀㔀　✀猀Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 椀渀挀氀甀搀攀搀 愀 瀀爀攀眀愀爀 猀琀甀搀礀 昀爀漀洀 愀 倀漀氀椀猀栀 瀀攀愀猀愀渀琀 瘀椀氀氀愀最攀 漀渀ഊ> household distribution of cooking utensils. It found that most households ਀㸀 栀愀搀 ㈀ⴀ㔀 瀀愀渀猀 漀昀 搀椀昀昀攀爀攀渀琀 猀椀稀攀猀Ⰰ 猀洀愀氀氀 琀漀 洀攀搀椀甀洀Ⰰ 瘀攀爀礀 猀洀愀氀氀 栀漀甀猀攀栀漀氀搀猀ഊ> (widows, etc) had just one or two small pots, and wealthy households and ਀㸀 氀愀爀最攀 昀愀爀洀猀 眀椀琀栀 洀愀渀礀 眀漀爀欀攀爀猀 栀愀搀 㠀ⴀ㄀㈀ 瀀漀琀猀Ⰰ 椀渀挀氀甀搀椀渀最 ㈀ⴀ㌀ 氀愀爀最攀 漀渀攀猀 愀渀搀ഊ> a few special purpose pans. occasions like holidays and weddings were ਀㸀 挀漀洀洀甀渀椀琀礀 攀昀昀漀爀琀猀㨀 琀栀攀 栀猀琀 瀀爀漀瘀椀搀攀搀 琀栀攀 昀漀漀搀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 戀漀爀爀漀眀攀搀 瀀漀琀猀 琀漀 挀漀漀欀ഊ> it in. (loaning these pots was a social duty affirming communal relations ਀㸀 愀渀搀 洀甀琀甀愀氀 搀攀瀀攀渀搀攀渀挀礀Ⰰ 愀猀 眀攀氀氀 愀猀 愀 挀甀猀琀漀洀 攀渀愀戀氀椀渀最 猀甀椀琀愀戀氀攀 搀椀猀瀀氀愀礀 昀漀爀 愀ഊ> celebration, comparable to the borrowed lyig-in gear gathered from ਀㸀 瘀愀爀椀漀甀猀 渀漀戀氀攀 挀漀渀渀攀挀琀椀漀渀猀 礀漀甀 眀椀氀氀 猀攀攀 椀渀 琀栀攀 䰀椀猀氀攀 氀攀琀琀攀爀猀⸀⤀ഊ ਀䤀渀琀攀爀攀猀琀椀渀最Ⰰ 戀甀琀 漀昀 氀椀琀琀氀攀 椀洀瀀漀爀琀 甀渀氀攀猀猀 椀琀 挀愀渀 戀攀 搀攀洀漀渀猀琀爀愀琀攀搀 琀栀愀琀 瀀攀愀猀愀渀琀ഊfamilies in the High Middle Ages baked raised coffins. The fact that raised ਀挀漀昀昀椀渀猀 愀瀀瀀攀愀爀 氀漀眀攀爀 漀渀 琀栀攀 猀漀挀椀愀氀 猀挀愀氀攀 椀渀 䰀愀琀攀 刀攀渀愀椀猀猀愀渀挀攀 愀渀搀 䔀愀爀氀礀ഊModern does not necessarily support their use at those social levels in the ਀䴀椀搀搀氀攀 䄀最攀猀⸀ഊ ਀㸀 䴀愀爀琀椀渀漀✀猀 氀椀瘀攀 戀椀爀搀猀 椀渀 愀 瀀椀攀 甀猀攀猀 愀 琀爀愀瀀瀀攀 琀漀 昀漀爀洀 琀栀攀 猀栀攀氀氀ഊ> and a filling of flour to hold the shape of the top crust. Why raise a ਀㸀 挀漀昀昀椀渀Ⰰ 爀愀琀栀攀爀 琀栀攀渀 洀漀氀搀 愀 猀栀攀氀氀㼀ഊ> ਀㸀 䠀愀戀椀琀㼀 攀瘀攀渀 戀愀欀椀渀最㼀 氀愀挀欀 漀昀 愀 猀甀椀琀愀戀氀攀 洀漀氀搀㼀ഊ ਀䘀爀漀洀 琀栀攀 眀漀漀搀挀甀琀猀 䤀✀瘀攀 猀攀攀渀 戀愀欀攀爀✀猀 栀愀搀 琀栀攀 栀愀戀椀琀 漀昀 甀猀椀渀最 瀀愀渀猀ഊ(trappes) for baking pastries. The medieval heat mass oven produces an even ਀栀攀愀琀 洀愀琀挀栀攀搀 漀渀氀礀 戀礀 愀 洀漀搀攀爀渀 挀漀渀瘀攀挀琀椀漀渀 漀瘀攀渀⸀  倀漀猀猀椀戀氀礀 琀栀攀 氀愀挀欀 漀昀 愀ഊsuitable pan, but I want to see the evidence. Professionals have and use ਀瀀爀漀昀攀猀猀椀漀渀愀氀 琀漀漀氀猀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 琀栀攀 挀漀漀欀猀 愀渀搀 戀愀欀攀爀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀 䴀椀搀搀氀攀 䄀最攀猀 眀攀爀攀 渀漀ഊexception. ਀ഊ> "arent ਀㸀 琀栀攀爀攀 洀攀渀甀 爀攀昀攀爀攀渀挀攀猀 愀渀搀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀猀 琀漀 䜀爀攀愀琀 倀椀攀猀 愀渀搀 倀椀攀猀 搀攀 倀愀爀椀猀 椀渀ഊ> fifteenth century England? I was struck by the absence of recipes in ਀㸀 攀愀爀氀椀攀爀 䔀渀最氀椀猀栀ഊ> sources, while Chiquart and Tallevent mention these pies, and give ਀㸀 昀愀椀爀氀礀 搀攀琀愀椀氀攀搀 椀渀猀琀爀挀琀椀漀渀猀 昀漀爀Ⰰ 愀琀 氀攀愀猀琀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 昀椀氀氀椀渀最猀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀 伀渀攀 挀漀甀氀搀 愀爀最甀攀 琀栀攀 ㄀㔀琀栀 挀攀渀琀甀爀礀 䔀渀最氀椀猀栀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀 昀漀爀 愀 䜀爀攀琀攀 倀礀攀 椀猀 愀渀ഊ> evolution, or (and more likely) importation from the Continent." ਀㸀ഊ> cant check references on England's sumptuary laws, but the great pie was a ਀㸀 昀椀渀攀 眀愀礀 琀漀 最攀琀 愀爀漀甀渀搀 爀攀猀琀爀椀挀琀椀漀渀猀 漀渀 琀栀攀 渀甀洀戀攀爀 漀昀 搀椀猀栀攀猀 ⴀ 挀漀渀猀瀀椀挀甀漀甀猀ഊ> consumption being very popular, especially for the merchant class ਀㸀 瀀爀椀洀愀爀椀氀礀 愀昀昀攀挀琀攀搀 戀礀 琀栀攀洀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀 渀漀琀 攀渀琀椀爀攀氀礀 愀瀀爀漀瀀漀猀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 瀀漀猀猀椀戀氀礀 愀 猀甀爀瘀椀瘀愀氀 漀昀 琀栀攀 琀漀眀攀爀猀 愀渀搀 最爀攀愀琀㸀 瀀礀攀猀㬀㨀⤀ 㸀 䔀渀最氀愀渀搀猀 琀爀愀搀琀椀漀渀愀氀 氀愀礀攀爀攀搀 眀攀搀搀椀渀最 挀愀欀攀 眀愀猀 愀挀琀甀愀氀氀礀 猀攀瘀攀爀愀氀ഊ> different cakes, one to be eaten fresh, longer lasting cakes to send to ਀㸀 愀戀猀攀渀琀 昀爀椀攀渀搀猀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 琀栀攀 琀漀瀀 愀 昀爀甀椀琀挀愀欀攀 琀漀 戀攀 猀栀愀爀攀搀 漀渀 琀栀攀 昀椀爀猀琀ഊ> anniversary- lots of ceremony involved n deconstructing it-I think Eliza ਀㸀 䄀挀琀漀渀 栀愀搀 琀栀愀琀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀 最椀猀攀氀攀ഊ ਀吀栀椀猀 愀爀最甀洀攀渀琀 洀愀礀 栀愀瘀攀 猀漀洀攀 洀攀爀椀琀⸀  䤀 搀漀渀✀琀 栀愀瘀攀 愀 挀漀瀀礀 愀瘀愀椀氀愀戀氀攀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 椀昀ഊanyone can locate one, may I suggest: Baldwin, F.E., Sumptuary Legislation ਀愀渀搀 倀攀爀猀漀渀愀氀 刀攀最甀氀愀琀椀漀渀 椀渀 䔀渀最氀愀渀搀Ⰰ 䨀漀栀渀 䠀漀瀀欀椀渀猀 倀爀攀猀猀Ⰰ ㄀㤀㈀㘀⸀ഊ ਀䈀攀愀爀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:25:43 -0500 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 䨀漀栀渀渀愀 䠀漀氀氀漀眀愀礀 㰀樀漀栀渀渀愀 愀琀 猀椀琀欀愀⸀攀渀最椀渀⸀甀洀椀挀栀⸀攀搀甀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns ਀吀漀㨀 䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀䄀猀 眀攀 挀漀渀琀椀渀甀攀 琀漀 最漀 爀漀甀渀搀 愀渀搀 爀漀甀渀搀 漀渀 挀漀昀昀礀渀猀ഊI still think that Countess Alys was correct in pointing out that ਀洀甀挀栀 挀愀渀 戀攀 氀攀愀爀渀攀搀 戀礀 氀漀漀欀椀渀最 愀琀 䤀瘀愀渀 䐀愀礀✀猀 眀攀戀猀椀琀攀⸀ഊHere I'll provide the links-- ਀栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀眀眀眀⸀栀椀猀琀漀爀椀挀昀漀漀搀⸀挀漀洀⼀倀椀攀─㈀　爀攀挀椀瀀攀⸀栀琀洀ഊhttp://www.historicfood.com/Banniet%20tort%20recipe.htm ਀栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀眀眀眀⸀栀椀猀琀漀爀椀挀昀漀漀搀⸀挀漀洀⼀倀椀攀─㈀　爀攀挀椀瀀攀㈀⸀栀琀洀ഊhttp://www.historicfood.com/medlar%20tart%20recipe.htm ਀栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀眀眀眀⸀栀椀猀琀漀爀椀挀昀漀漀搀⸀挀漀洀⼀匀攀琀挀甀猀琀愀爀搀猀⸀栀琀洀ഊ ਀䤀 猀甀猀瀀攀挀琀 琀栀愀琀 椀琀 眀椀氀氀 琀愀欀攀 愀 洀愀樀漀爀 爀攀猀攀愀爀挀栀 攀昀昀漀爀琀 琀漀 爀攀愀氀氀礀 挀漀洀攀 甀瀀 眀椀琀栀 猀漀洀攀 愀渀猀眀攀爀猀 愀渀搀 渀漀琀 樀甀猀琀 猀瀀攀挀甀氀愀琀椀漀渀猀 漀渀 琀栀椀猀 琀漀瀀椀挀 愀渀搀 攀瘀攀渀 琀栀攀渀 琀栀攀爀攀✀猀 愀 最漀漀搀 挀栀愀渀挀攀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀 瀀爀愀挀琀椀挀攀 瘀愀爀椀攀搀 漀瘀攀爀 琀椀洀攀 愀渀搀 瀀氀愀挀攀 搀攀瀀攀渀搀椀渀最 甀瀀漀渀 椀渀最爀攀搀椀攀渀琀猀ഊand use. I am sorry but I just don't have the time at the moment to do it. ਀ഊJohnnae ਀ഊ>>> ਀昀爀漀洀 ㄀㠀 䘀攀戀爀甀愀爀礀 ㈀　　㔀ഊ ਀䜀爀攀攀琀椀渀最猀℀  䤀瘀愀渀 䐀愀礀 栀愀猀 猀漀洀攀 ∀昀愀渀挀礀 瀀椀攀猀∀ 漀渀 栀椀猀 眀攀戀猀椀琀攀ഊ(historicfood.com). With one of them is a carved wooden mould to produce ਀氀攀愀瘀攀猀 眀栀椀挀栀 愀爀攀 瀀氀愀挀攀搀 愀猀 搀攀挀漀爀愀琀椀漀渀 漀渀 琀栀攀 氀椀搀猀⸀  吀栀愀琀 眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 愀 昀愀猀琀ഊway for non-artistic types to produce quality decorations in quantity. He ਀愀氀猀漀 猀栀漀眀猀 猀漀洀攀  洀攀琀愀氀 琀椀渀猀 昀漀爀 洀愀欀椀渀最 琀栀攀 搀攀挀漀爀愀琀椀瘀攀 猀椀搀攀猀⸀  䤀 琀栀椀渀欀 琀栀攀猀攀ഊare from the mid-1600s and later. ਀ഊAlys Katharine ਀㰀㰀㰀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:15:05 -0400 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 䴀椀挀栀攀愀氀 㰀搀洀爀攀椀搀 愀琀 栀昀砀⸀攀愀猀琀氀椀渀欀⸀挀愀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns ਀吀漀㨀 䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀  䴀礀 昀椀渀愀氀 琀栀漀甀最栀琀猀 漀渀 琀栀攀 洀愀琀琀攀爀 渀漀 漀渀攀 攀氀猀攀猀Ⰰ 渀漀爀 椀猀 愀渀礀漀渀攀 爀攀焀甀椀爀攀搀 琀漀ഊaccept them. ਀  圀攀 搀漀 渀漀琀 栀愀瘀攀 愀 猀漀氀甀琀椀漀渀 漀渀 琀栀攀 焀甀攀猀琀椀漀渀Ⰰ 猀椀洀瀀氀礀 漀瀀椀渀椀漀渀猀Ⰰ 愀猀 琀漀 栀漀眀Ⰰ 愀渀搀ഊwho made them. We do know they were used. ਀ഊ This is what I used: ਀  䘀氀漀甀爀Ⰰ 氀愀爀搀Ⰰ 猀愀氀琀Ⰰ 攀最最Ⰰ 愀渀搀 眀愀琀攀爀ഊ Blended flour and salt worked in the lard till it be came mealy added ਀猀氀椀最栀琀氀礀 栀椀最栀攀爀 琀栀攀渀 爀漀漀洀 琀攀洀瀀攀爀愀琀甀爀攀 眀愀琀攀爀 琀漀 昀漀爀洀 愀 戀愀氀氀 氀攀琀 椀琀 爀攀猀琀 昀漀爀 ㌀　ഊmin. Rolled it flat cut a circle the size of what I thought was right. Cut ਀猀琀爀椀瀀猀 漀昀 搀漀甀最栀Ⰰ 攀最最 眀愀猀栀攀搀 琀栀攀 攀搀最攀猀 愀渀搀 眀漀爀欀攀搀 琀栀攀洀 漀渀 攀搀最攀 甀瀀 昀爀漀洀 琀栀攀ഊbottom till I reached four of my fingers high. Why because it looks right. ਀䈀愀欀攀搀 昀漀爀 ㄀㔀ⴀ㈀　 洀椀渀 愀琀 ㌀㜀㔀 琀漀 猀攀琀 搀漀甀最栀⸀ 䴀椀砀攀搀 昀氀漀甀爀 愀渀搀 眀愀琀攀爀 瀀愀猀琀攀 愀渀搀ഊcoated the outside to fill in any gaps or separations worked from the ਀戀漀琀琀漀洀 甀渀琀椀氀 猀洀漀漀琀栀 琀漀 琀栀攀  琀漀瀀 椀渀猀椀搀攀 愀渀搀 漀甀琀⸀ 䘀椀氀氀攀搀 眀椀琀栀 猀琀甀昀昀攀爀 ⸀ 䤀ഊformed (of the same dough) a lid which fitted inside and crimped the edge ਀琀漀 琀栀攀 猀椀搀攀猀 眀栀椀氀攀 琀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀攀 眀愀猀 猀琀椀氀氀 搀愀洀瀀⸀ 倀甀琀 琀栀攀 眀栀漀氀攀 琀栀椀渀最 椀渀琀漀 琀栀攀ഊoven at 375 and cooked until there was bubbles coming out the center. Pulled ਀椀琀 漀甀琀Ⰰ 攀最最 眀愀猀栀攀搀 琀栀攀 攀渀琀椀爀攀 漀甀琀猀椀搀攀 攀砀挀攀瀀琀 琀栀攀 戀漀琀琀漀洀Ⰰ 爀攀瀀氀愀挀攀搀 椀渀 漀瘀攀渀⸀ഊTested with a thermometer to check internal temp and removed when done. If I ਀栀愀搀 琀栀攀 愀戀椀氀椀琀礀 琀漀 猀攀渀搀 瀀栀漀琀漀猀 䤀 眀漀甀氀搀⸀ 氀漀漀欀猀 氀椀欀攀 琀栀攀 瀀愀椀渀琀攀搀 爀愀椀猀攀搀 瀀椀攀猀 䤀ഊhave seen in the national gallery. ਀  䤀渀最爀攀搀椀攀渀琀猀ഊ 5 cups of stone ground Bread flour non raising ਀  ㄀ 挀甀瀀 漀昀 猀瀀攀氀琀 昀漀爀 氀漀漀欀猀ഊ 1.5 cups lard ਀  ㌀ 琀攀愀猀瀀漀漀渀猀 猀愀氀琀ഊ water to form ball added slowly ਀   ㄀ 攀最最 琀漀 眀愀猀栀⸀ഊ ਀  䤀 愀洀 猀琀甀戀戀漀爀渀 椀琀 琀漀漀欀 琀眀攀氀瘀攀 琀爀椀攀猀 戀攀昀漀爀攀 䤀 昀椀渀愀氀礀 挀愀洀攀 甀瀀 眀椀琀栀 琀栀攀 愀戀漀瘀攀ഊrecipe. Fully knowing it maybe right and it maybe wrong, but it worked for ਀洀攀⸀ 䤀琀 椀猀 渀漀琀 攀愀猀礀 最攀琀 爀椀搀 漀昀 ㌀　 礀攀愀爀猀 漀昀 洀漀搀攀爀渀椀猀琀椀挀 挀漀漀欀椀渀最 猀琀礀氀攀猀⸀ 匀漀洀攀ഊthings you don`t even notice become habit. But I learned an appreciation ਀昀漀爀 琀栀攀 瀀攀爀猀漀渀 椀渀 琀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 猀栀漀瀀 昀爀漀洀 栀愀洀瀀琀漀渀 挀漀甀爀琀 琀漀 琀栀攀 氀漀眀氀礀 琀漀眀渀ഊbakery I didn`t have before. Even though I despised the fact they didn`t ਀眀爀椀琀攀 椀琀 搀漀眀渀⸀ 䤀猀渀怀琀 琀栀愀琀 眀栀愀琀 椀琀猀 愀氀氀 愀戀漀甀琀 椀渀 琀栀攀 攀渀搀⸀ഊ ਀  䐀愀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 23:36:23 -0400 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 䨀漀栀渀渀愀 䠀漀氀氀漀眀愀礀 㰀樀漀栀渀渀愀 愀琀 猀椀琀欀愀⸀攀渀最椀渀⸀甀洀椀挀栀⸀攀搀甀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffins was beets... ਀吀漀㨀 䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀䄀猀 爀攀最愀爀搀猀 挀漀昀昀礀渀猀ⴀⴀ 䤀瘀愀渀 䐀愀礀 栀愀猀 瀀椀挀琀甀爀攀猀 漀昀 爀愀椀猀攀搀 瀀椀攀猀ഊalong with a description of various recipes. ਀栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀眀眀眀⸀栀椀猀琀漀爀椀挀昀漀漀搀⸀挀漀洀⼀倀椀攀─㈀　爀攀挀椀瀀攀⸀栀琀洀ഊhttp://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20recipe2.htm ਀ഊCoffins need not be casket shaped. ਀䄀 挀漀昀昀椀渀 愀氀猀漀 眀愀猀 愀 戀愀猀欀攀琀⸀ 伀䔀䐀 猀愀礀猀ഊ*coffin* ਀ഊ*1. * A basket; transl. L. /cophinus/, Gr. /ko/enticons/acute.giffinoj/. ਀ഊ[So in OF. and many mod.F. dialects.] ਀ഊ * *C. 1380* Wyclif /Serm./ Sel. Wks. I. 62 ?ei gedriden and filden ਀       琀眀攀氀瘀攀 挀漀昀昀礀渀攀猀 漀昀 爀攀氀椀昀 漀昀 昀礀瘀攀 戀愀爀氀礀 氀漀瘀攀猀㬀ഊ * *1382* Wyclif /2 Kings/ x. 7 Thei..slewen the seventy men, and ਀       瀀甀琀琀攀渀 琀栀攀 栀攀瘀攀搀椀猀 漀昀 栀攀洀 椀渀 挀漀昀礀渀攀猀⸀ഊ * *1432-50* tr. /Higden/ (Rolls) I. 15 Gedrenge..the fragmentes of ਀       琀栀攀 挀漀瀀栀椀渀渀攀猀 爀攀洀愀渀攀渀琀⸀ഊ * *1542* Elyot /Dict./, /Tibin/, a baskette or coffyn made of ਀       眀礀挀欀攀爀猀 漀爀 戀甀氀氀 爀甀猀栀攀猀Ⰰ 漀爀 戀愀爀欀攀 漀昀 愀 琀爀攀攀㨀 猀甀挀栀 漀漀渀攀 眀愀猀 䴀漀礀猀攀猀ഊ put in to. ਀ഊ*. * Cookery.* * A mould of paste for a pie; the crust of a pie. Obs. ਀ഊ * *C. 1420* /Liber Cocorum/ (1862) 41 Make a cofyne as to smalle pye. ਀     ⨀ ⨀䌀⸀ ㄀㐀㈀　⨀ ⼀䌀漀漀欀攀爀礀 䈀欀⸀⼀ 㐀㔀 䴀愀欀攀 昀愀礀爀攀 瀀愀猀琀 漀昀 昀氀漀眀爀攀 ☀ 眀愀琀攀爀Ⰰഊ Sugre, & Safroun, & Salt; & ?an make fayre round cofyns ?er-of; ਀     ⨀ ⨀㄀㔀㠀㠀⨀ 匀栀愀欀猀⸀ ⼀吀椀琀⸀ 䄀⸀⼀ 瘀⸀ 椀椀⸀ ㄀㠀㤀 伀昀 琀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀攀 愀 挀漀昀昀攀渀 䤀 眀椀氀氀ഊ reare. ਀     ⨀ ⨀䄀⸀ ㄀㘀㔀㐀⨀ 匀攀氀搀攀渀 ⼀吀愀戀氀攀ⴀ琀⸀⼀ ⠀䄀爀戀⸀⤀ ㌀㌀ 吀栀攀 䌀漀昀昀椀渀 漀昀 漀甀爀 䌀栀爀椀猀琀洀愀猀ഊ Pies in shape long, is in imitation of the Cratch. ਀ഊIt was also ਀䄀 瀀愀瀀攀爀 挀愀猀攀㬀 猀瀀攀挀⸀ 愀 爀攀挀攀瀀琀愀挀氀攀 洀愀搀攀 戀礀 琀眀椀猀琀椀渀最 瀀愀瀀攀爀 椀渀琀漀 愀 挀漀渀椀挀愀氀ഊform or `cornet', to contain groceries, etc., or for use as a filter; ਀猀琀椀氀氀 愀瀀瀀氀椀攀搀 戀礀 瀀爀椀渀琀攀爀猀 琀漀 猀洀愀氀氀 瀀愀瀀攀爀 戀愀最猀 漀昀 琀栀椀猀 猀栀愀瀀攀 琀漀 栀漀氀搀ഊspare type, superfluous sorts, etc.*1577* Frampton /Joyful News/ (1580) ਀㐀㈀ 吀栀攀 猀洀漀欀攀 漀昀 琀栀椀猀 䠀攀愀爀戀攀Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 琀栀攀礀 爀攀挀攀愀甀攀 愀琀 琀栀攀 洀漀甀琀栀 琀栀爀漀甀最栀ഊcertaine coffins, suche as the Grocers do vse to put in their Spices. ਀ഊThere are various reasons why pies might have been round. Stability ਀椀猀 漀渀攀 愀猀瀀攀挀琀⸀ 䤀琀✀猀 愀氀猀漀 瀀爀漀戀愀戀氀礀 昀愀爀 攀愀猀椀攀爀 琀漀 爀愀椀猀攀 愀 瀀椀攀挀爀甀猀琀 椀渀 愀ഊround shape. ਀ഊJohnnae ਀ഊStephanie Ross wrote: ਀㸀 䄀氀猀漀Ⰰ 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 愀渀漀琀栀攀爀 焀甀攀猀琀椀漀渀⸀ഊ> Were there certain shapes for making cofyns/coffins, and did the shapes ਀㸀 挀栀愀渀最攀 漀瘀攀爀 琀栀攀 挀攀渀琀甀爀椀攀猀㼀 䤀 挀愀渀✀琀 椀洀愀最椀渀攀 愀渀礀琀栀椀渀最 洀漀爀攀 眀愀猀琀攀昀甀氀 漀昀 猀瀀愀挀攀ഊ> in an oven than a round pie tin. Weren't coffins square for the most part? ਀㸀 圀栀愀琀 挀漀甀氀搀 礀漀甀 甀猀攀 琀漀 椀洀椀琀愀琀攀 愀 挀漀昀昀椀渀 瀀愀渀㼀 䤀 琀栀椀渀欀 愀渀 㠀 堀 㠀 瀀愀渀 眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀ഊ> too deep, but I'm really not sure. ਀㸀 縀䄀椀猀氀椀渀渀縀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 07:51:53 -0400 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 䨀漀栀渀渀愀 䠀漀氀氀漀眀愀礀 㰀樀漀栀渀渀愀 愀琀 猀椀琀欀愀⸀攀渀最椀渀⸀甀洀椀挀栀⸀攀搀甀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pie Shapers: Was Speaking of Beets ਀吀漀㨀 䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀吀栀攀 眀攀戀 猀椀琀攀猀 琀栀愀琀 䤀 最愀瘀攀 椀渀 琀栀攀 瀀漀猀琀椀渀最 漀渀 挀漀昀昀椀渀猀ഊalso show several illustrations from Robert May ਀愀渀搀 猀攀瘀攀爀愀氀 爀愀椀猀攀搀 瀀椀攀猀ⴀⴀഊ ਀匀攀攀 愀氀猀漀 琀栀攀 洀愀爀瘀攀氀漀甀猀 挀甀琀眀漀爀欀 挀甀猀琀愀爀搀 瀀椀攀猀 愀琀ഊhttp://www.historicfood.com/Setcustards.htm ਀ഊAs regards coffyns-- Ivan Day has pictures of raised pies ਀愀氀漀渀最 眀椀琀栀 愀 搀攀猀挀爀椀瀀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 瘀愀爀椀漀甀猀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀猀⸀ഊhttp://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20recipe.htm ਀栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀眀眀眀⸀栀椀猀琀漀爀椀挀昀漀漀搀⸀挀漀洀⼀倀椀攀─㈀　爀攀挀椀瀀攀㈀⸀栀琀洀ഊ ਀䨀漀栀渀渀愀攀ഊ ਀吀攀爀爀礀 䐀攀挀欀攀爀 眀爀漀琀攀㨀ഊ> One of the great skills of a baker is to be able to cut and form dough by ਀㸀 栀愀渀搀 琀漀 瀀爀漀搀甀挀攀 搀攀挀漀爀愀琀椀漀渀猀 昀漀爀 戀爀攀愀搀猀 愀渀搀 漀琀栀攀爀 戀愀欀攀最漀漀搀猀 ⠀䤀 栀愀瘀攀渀✀琀ഊ> practiced enough to be anywhere near good). The little that I have found ਀㸀 洀愀欀攀猀 洀攀 琀栀椀渀欀 洀漀氀搀猀 眀攀爀攀 甀猀攀搀 眀栀攀爀攀 昀爀攀攀栀愀渀搀 搀攀挀漀爀愀琀椀漀渀 眀愀猀渀✀琀 瀀爀愀挀琀椀挀愀氀ഊ> (as with ginger bread) or where standardization was required (as ਀㸀 眀椀琀栀 琀栀攀 䔀甀挀栀愀爀椀猀琀⤀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀 唀猀椀渀最 洀漀氀搀猀 眀椀琀栀 愀 瀀椀攀 猀栀愀瀀攀爀 漀爀 昀漀爀 愀 瀀椀攀 挀漀瘀攀爀 眀漀甀氀搀 瀀爀漀戀愀戀氀礀 眀漀爀欀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 䤀ഊ> haven't seen anything to suggest it occurred. It's an interesting ਀㸀 焀甀攀猀琀椀漀渀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀 䈀攀愀爀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 21:57:19 -0600 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀吀攀爀爀礀 䐀攀挀欀攀爀∀ 㰀琀⸀搀⸀搀攀挀欀攀爀 愀琀 眀漀爀氀搀渀攀琀⸀愀琀琀⸀渀攀琀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cofyns ਀吀漀㨀 ∀䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀∀ 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀㸀 䠀攀爀攀✀猀 愀 焀甀攀猀琀椀漀渀 琀栀愀琀 挀愀洀攀 甀瀀 眀栀椀氀攀 䤀 眀愀猀 栀攀氀瀀椀渀最 琀漀 樀甀搀最攀 琀栀攀 刀漀礀愀氀ഊ> Baker competition in Atlantia: ਀㸀ഊ> When a recipe refers to a "Cofyn", does it ALWAYS mean an inedible pie ਀㸀 挀爀甀猀琀 漀爀 椀猀 琀栀攀爀攀 爀漀漀洀 琀漀 愀猀猀甀洀攀⼀瀀爀漀瘀攀 琀栀愀琀 椀琀 眀愀猀 愀渀 攀搀椀戀氀攀 挀爀甀猀琀㼀ഊ> ਀㸀 嘀椀琀栀愀ഊ> Lady Hrosvitha von Celle ਀ഊCoffin, in any of its various spellings, is usually a reference to a ਀挀漀渀琀愀椀渀攀爀㬀 愀 戀愀猀欀攀琀Ⰰ 愀 戀漀砀Ⰰ 愀 挀栀攀猀琀 漀爀 愀 瀀椀攀 猀栀攀氀氀⸀  吀栀攀爀攀 愀爀攀 猀漀洀攀 洀漀爀攀ഊobscure meanings, but let's stick with the container. The word in this ਀甀猀愀最攀 愀瀀瀀攀愀爀猀 昀爀漀洀 愀琀 氀攀愀猀琀 琀栀攀 攀愀爀氀礀 ㄀㔀琀栀 䌀攀渀琀甀爀礀 椀渀琀漀 琀栀攀 ㄀㠀琀栀 䌀攀渀琀甀爀礀⸀ഊIn most references, they are talking about a pastry pie shell, but Hugh Plat ਀洀愀欀攀猀 爀攀昀攀爀攀渀挀攀 琀漀 ∀挀漀昀昀椀渀猀 漀昀 眀栀椀琀攀 瀀氀愀琀攀∀ 椀渀 䐀攀氀椀最栀琀猀 昀漀爀 䰀愀搀椀攀猀⸀ഊ ਀䌀漀昀昀椀渀猀 爀愀渀最攀 昀爀漀洀 愀 栀愀爀搀 瀀愀猀琀攀 漀昀 昀氀漀甀爀 愀渀搀 眀愀琀攀爀 琀漀 䔀氀椀稀愀戀攀琀栀攀愀渀 瀀椀攀ഊshells that are apparently meant to be eaten. According to the OED, there ਀椀猀 愀 爀攀昀攀爀攀渀挀攀 琀漀 挀漀昀昀椀渀猀 昀爀漀洀 ∀㄀㐀㈀　 䌀漀漀欀攀爀礀 䈀欀⸀∀ 琀栀愀琀 爀攀愀搀猀Ⰰ ∀洀愀欀攀 昀愀礀爀攀ഊpast of flowre & water, Sugre, & Safroun & Salt; & then make fayre, round ਀挀漀昀礀渀猀 琀栀攀爀攀漀昀⸀∀ ⠀猀甀戀猀琀椀琀甀琀椀渀最 ∀琀栀∀ 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 䴀椀搀搀氀攀 䔀渀最氀椀猀栀 琀栀漀爀渀 猀礀洀戀漀氀⤀⸀ഊIn this case, the addition of sugar makes me think this coffin was meant to ਀戀攀 攀愀琀攀渀⸀  䘀爀漀洀 琀栀攀 ㄀㐀㈀　 搀愀琀攀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 猀漀甀爀挀攀 椀猀 瀀爀漀戀愀戀氀礀 䠀愀爀氀攀椀愀渀 ㈀㜀㤀⸀ഊ ਀䤀䤀刀䌀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 攀愀爀氀椀攀猀琀 愀搀搀椀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 昀愀琀 琀漀 愀 瀀椀攀 猀栀攀氀氀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 眀漀甀氀搀ഊimprove the edibility, is mid-16th Century. ਀ഊBear ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 匀甀渀Ⰰ 㐀 䴀愀爀 ㈀　　㜀 ㈀㌀㨀　㄀㨀㐀㤀 ⴀ　㔀　　ഊFrom: Daniel Myers ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 䌀漀昀礀渀猀ഊTo: Cooks within the SCA ਀ഊOn Mar 4, 2007, at 10:01 PM, Kerri Martinsen wrote: ਀㸀 䠀攀爀攀✀猀 愀 焀甀攀猀琀椀漀渀 琀栀愀琀 挀愀洀攀 甀瀀 眀栀椀氀攀 䤀 眀愀猀 栀攀氀瀀椀渀最 琀漀 樀甀搀最攀 琀栀攀ഊ> Royal Baker competition in Atlantia: ਀㸀ഊ> When a recipe refers to a "Cofyn", does it ALWAYS mean an inedible ਀㸀 瀀椀攀 挀爀甀猀琀 漀爀 椀猀 琀栀攀爀攀 爀漀漀洀 琀漀 愀猀猀甀洀攀⼀瀀爀漀瘀攀 琀栀愀琀 椀琀 眀愀猀 愀渀 攀搀椀戀氀攀 挀爀甀猀琀㼀ഊ ਀吀栀攀爀攀 椀猀 猀漀洀攀 挀氀攀愀爀 瀀爀漀漀昀 琀栀愀琀 爀愀椀猀攀搀 挀漀昀昀椀渀猀 眀攀爀攀渀✀琀 愀氀眀愀礀猀 椀渀攀搀椀戀氀攀ഊ- note the marked text. ਀ഊ From "The Good Huswifes Handmaide for the Kitchen", Stuart Peachey ਀⠀攀搀⸀⤀  ⴀ  䔀渀最氀愀渀搀Ⰰ 挀⸀ ㄀㔀㠀㠀ഊTo make Paste, and to raise Coffins. Take fine flower, and lay it on ਀愀 戀漀漀爀搀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 琀愀欀攀 愀 挀攀爀琀愀椀渀攀 漀昀 礀漀氀欀攀猀 漀昀 䔀最最攀猀 愀猀 礀漀甀爀 焀甀愀渀琀椀琀椀攀 漀昀ഊflower is, then take a certaine of Butter and water, and boil them ਀琀漀最攀琀栀攀爀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 礀攀 洀甀猀琀 琀愀欀攀 栀攀攀搀 礀攀 瀀甀琀 渀漀琀 琀漀漀 洀愀渀礀 礀漀氀欀猀 漀昀 䔀最最攀猀Ⰰഊfor if you doe, ***it will make it drie and not pleasant in ਀攀愀琀椀渀最⨀⨀⨀㨀 愀渀搀 礀攀攀 洀甀猀琀 琀愀欀攀 栀攀攀搀 礀攀 瀀甀琀 渀漀琀 椀渀 琀漀漀 洀甀挀栀 䈀甀琀琀攀爀 昀漀爀ഊif you doe, it will make it so fine and short that you cannot raise. ਀䄀渀搀 琀栀椀猀 瀀愀猀琀攀 椀猀 最漀漀搀 琀漀 爀愀椀猀攀 愀氀氀 洀愀渀渀攀爀 漀昀 䌀漀昀昀椀渀猀㨀 䰀椀欀攀眀椀猀攀 椀昀 礀攀ഊbake Venison, bake it in the paste above named. ਀ഊI've got some notes collected about pie crusts online, but not too ਀洀愀渀礀 挀漀渀挀氀甀猀椀漀渀猀 礀攀琀⸀ഊ ਀ऀ栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀眀眀眀⸀洀攀搀椀攀瘀愀氀挀漀漀欀攀爀礀⸀挀漀洀⼀渀漀琀攀猀⼀瀀椀攀挀爀甀猀琀⸀猀栀琀洀ഊ ਀ⴀ 䐀漀挀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 11:23:40 -0400 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 䌀椀渀搀礀 刀攀渀昀爀漀眀 㰀挀椀渀搀礀 愀琀 琀栀漀甀猀愀渀搀攀最最猀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Help!!! Camp Ovens ਀吀漀㨀 䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀刀攀最愀爀搀椀渀最 瀀椀攀 猀栀攀氀氀猀 愀戀氀攀 琀漀 爀攀猀椀猀琀 琀爀愀渀猀瀀漀爀琀愀琀椀漀渀㼀ഊ ਀䔀氀椀稀愀戀攀琀栀Ⰰ 栀愀瘀攀 愀 氀漀漀欀 愀琀㨀 栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀眀眀眀⸀琀栀漀甀猀愀渀搀攀最最猀⸀挀漀洀⼀最爀攀琀攀瀀礀攀⸀栀琀洀氀ഊThe dough I used is far heavier and stiffer than ordinary pie dough and ਀眀椀氀氀 栀漀氀搀 甀瀀 眀攀氀氀 琀漀 洀漀甀氀搀椀渀最 愀爀漀甀渀搀 愀 挀漀漀欀椀攀 琀椀渀⸀ 䠀椀渀琀㨀 眀爀愀瀀 琀栀攀ഊupside-down tin with greased foil before applying the dough to the ਀㼀漀甀琀猀椀搀攀⨀ 漀昀 琀栀攀 琀椀渀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 搀漀渀✀琀 瀀爀攀猀猀 椀琀 搀漀眀渀 琀漀漀 琀椀最栀琀氀礀⸀ 夀漀甀 眀椀氀氀 戀攀ഊbaking your "castle" upside down. Heavy cardboard mailing tubes work ਀昀愀椀爀氀礀 眀攀氀氀 椀昀 礀漀甀 眀愀渀琀 琀漀 洀愀欀攀 挀愀猀琀氀攀 琀漀眀攀爀猀 ⠀椀昀 礀漀甀 搀漀渀✀琀 洀椀渀搀 琀栀攀ഊsmell of cooking cardboard). ਀ഊAfter baking, let the dough cool completely before carefully unmolding ਀椀琀⸀ 吀栀攀渀 瀀漀瀀 椀琀 戀愀挀欀 椀渀 愀 瘀攀爀礀 猀氀漀眀 漀瘀攀渀 眀椀琀栀 琀栀攀 搀漀漀爀 挀爀愀挀欀攀搀 漀瀀攀渀 愀ഊbit to dry the shell out completely. This may take several on/off ਀挀礀挀氀攀猀⸀ 䐀甀爀椀渀最 琀栀椀猀 昀椀渀愀氀 瀀栀愀猀攀Ⰰ 礀漀甀 洀愀礀 愀氀猀漀 最氀愀稀攀 愀渀搀 搀攀挀漀爀愀琀攀 礀漀甀爀ഊcastle walls with seeds, egg yolks, etc. ਀ഊThe filling can be heated & the whole thing assembled on site at the ਀氀愀猀琀 洀椀渀甀琀攀⸀ 䄀 挀栀攀昀✀猀 瀀爀漀瀀愀渀攀 琀漀爀挀栀 挀愀渀 戀攀 甀猀攀搀 琀漀 洀攀氀琀 琀栀攀 昀椀渀愀氀 猀甀最愀爀ഊglaze, but be careful. ਀ഊRegarding your oven dilemma, now is not the time to experiment! Find a ਀昀爀椀攀渀搀 眀椀琀栀 愀 眀漀爀欀椀渀最 漀瘀攀渀 漀爀 挀栀愀琀 甀瀀 礀漀甀爀 氀漀挀愀氀 瀀椀稀稀攀爀椀愀 漀眀渀攀爀⸀ഊ ਀䄀氀猀漀Ⰰ 椀昀 礀漀甀 栀愀瘀攀渀✀琀 猀攀攀渀 椀琀 愀氀爀攀愀搀礀Ⰰഊhttp://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD/illusion-fds-msg.html is quite ਀椀渀琀攀爀攀猀琀椀渀最⸀ഊ ਀䌀椀渀搀礀 刀攀渀昀爀漀眀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 21:13:42 -0400 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 䨀漀栀渀渀愀 䠀漀氀氀漀眀愀礀 㰀樀漀栀渀渀愀攀 愀琀 洀愀挀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn Paste ਀吀漀㨀 䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀䠀漀琀 圀愀琀攀爀 䌀爀甀猀琀 昀漀爀 刀愀椀猀攀搀 倀椀攀 倀愀猀琀爀礀ഊ ਀㄀ 瀀漀甀渀搀 瀀氀愀椀渀 昀氀漀甀爀   㐀㔀　 最爀愀洀猀ഊ1/4 ounce salt ਀㐀 漀甀渀挀攀猀 氀愀爀搀      ㄀　　 最爀愀洀猀ഊone half pint hot water 300 ml ਀ഊSift the flour and salt into a warm bowl and make ਀愀 眀攀氀氀 椀渀 琀栀攀 挀攀渀琀爀攀⸀ 䈀漀椀氀 琀栀攀 氀愀爀搀 椀渀 琀栀攀 眀愀琀攀爀 甀渀琀椀氀 洀攀氀琀攀搀ഊand pour into the flour; mix quickly with a wooden spoon. ਀䬀渀攀愀搀 琀栀攀 搀漀甀最栀 戀礀 栀愀渀搀 眀栀椀氀攀 琀栀攀 洀椀砀琀甀爀攀 椀猀 猀琀椀氀氀 眀愀爀洀Ⰰ 甀渀琀椀氀 愀氀氀 琀栀攀ഊflour is worked in and the pastry is smooth and free from cracks. ਀唀猀攀 眀栀椀氀攀 猀琀椀氀氀 眀愀爀洀 愀渀搀 戀攀昀漀爀攀 椀琀 栀愀爀搀攀渀猀⸀ 䤀琀 挀愀渀渀漀琀 戀攀 猀琀漀爀攀搀ഊat this stage although it may be stored after moulding to the desired shape. ਀ഊLizzie Boyd, ed. British Cookery. 1976, 1984. page 96. ਀ഊThe measurements are the British measures used in the 1970's. ਀吀栀攀 最爀愀洀 攀焀甀椀瘀愀氀攀渀琀猀 挀漀洀攀 昀爀漀洀 琀栀攀 猀甀最最攀猀琀攀搀 挀漀渀瘀攀爀猀椀漀渀 挀栀愀爀琀 椀渀 琀栀攀 戀漀漀欀⸀ഊThis makes a great strong crust for standing pastry. ਀ഊIf you have a microwave, you can heat the lard and water in the microwave ਀甀渀琀椀氀 椀琀 椀猀 猀甀瀀攀爀 栀漀琀⸀ 吀栀攀 氀愀爀搀 眀椀氀氀 洀攀氀琀 愀渀搀 猀椀琀 漀渀 琀栀攀 猀甀爀昀愀挀攀⸀ 吀栀椀猀 ഊis one of instances where shaking the measuring cup can in fact make the liquid suddenly explode or release steam. Be warned. ਀ഊJohnnae ਀ഊLilinah wrote: ਀㰀㰀㰀 圀攀✀瘀攀 栀愀搀 猀漀洀攀 氀椀瘀攀氀礀 挀漀渀瘀攀爀猀愀琀椀漀渀猀 愀戀漀甀琀 琀栀攀 搀漀甀最栀 渀攀攀搀攀搀 琀漀 洀愀欀攀 愀渀 ഊinedible, free-standing coffyn in the past few months. ਀倀攀漀瀀氀攀 栀愀瘀攀 洀攀渀琀椀漀渀攀搀 椀渀最爀攀搀椀攀渀琀猀 ⴀ 昀氀漀甀爀 ⴀ 氀愀爀搀 愀渀搀⼀漀爀 眀愀琀攀爀 ⴀ 猀愀氀琀 ⴀ ഊsometimes eggs. But i don't recall seeing one with some idea of ਀瀀爀漀瀀漀爀琀椀漀渀猀⸀ 䤀 欀渀漀眀 琀栀愀琀 昀氀漀甀爀猀 瘀愀爀礀 椀渀 琀栀攀 愀洀漀甀渀琀 漀昀 眀愀琀攀爀 琀栀攀礀✀氀氀 ഊabsorb, so i'm not asking for an exact recipe. But i was hoping to get ਀猀漀洀攀琀栀椀渀最 眀椀琀栀 洀漀爀攀 搀攀琀愀椀氀猀 琀栀愀渀 樀甀猀琀 愀 氀椀猀琀 漀昀 瀀漀琀攀渀琀椀愀氀 椀渀最爀攀搀椀攀渀琀猀⸀ഊ ਀䤀 爀攀愀氀椀稀攀 琀栀椀猀 眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 戀愀猀攀搀 漀渀 琀栀攀 攀砀瀀攀爀椀攀渀挀攀 漀昀 挀漀漀欀猀 漀渀 琀栀攀 氀椀猀琀 ഊand not an actual historical recipe. >>> ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 吀甀攀Ⰰ ㄀㔀 䨀愀渀 ㈀　　㠀 ㄀㐀㨀㌀㠀㨀㐀㜀 ⴀ　㘀　　ഊFrom: "Terry Decker" ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 䌀漀昀昀礀渀 瀀愀渀㼀ഊTo: "Cooks within the SCA" ਀ഊ<<< But, Gunthar, weren't Medieval coffyns round? I sort of got that impression ਀昀爀漀洀 洀漀猀琀 漀昀 琀栀攀 攀砀椀猀琀椀渀最 椀氀氀甀猀琀爀愀琀椀漀渀猀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 䤀 洀愀礀 戀攀 眀爀漀渀最 㰀猀椀最栀㸀ഊ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ਀䴀攀椀猀琀攀爀椀渀 䬀愀琀愀爀椀渀愀 䠀攀氀攀渀攀 瘀漀渀 匀挀栀㼀渀戀漀爀渀Ⰰ 伀䰀 㸀㸀㸀ഊ ਀吀栀攀 琀攀爀洀 挀漀昀昀礀渀 栀愀猀 椀琀✀猀 漀爀椀最椀渀猀 椀渀 愀 䜀爀攀攀欀 眀漀爀搀 洀攀愀渀椀渀最 ∀戀愀猀欀攀琀∀ 眀愀猀ഊtransferred into Latin then came into English via Old French, where it meant ਀∀氀椀琀琀氀攀 戀愀猀欀攀琀Ⰰ∀ ∀挀愀猀攀Ⰰ∀ 攀琀挀⸀  吀栀甀猀 琀栀攀 猀栀愀瀀攀 洀愀礀 戀攀 椀洀洀愀琀攀爀椀愀氀 琀漀 琀栀攀ഊdefinition as the coffin was created to meet the needs of the contents. The ਀椀搀攀愀 椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀 挀漀昀昀礀渀 猀栀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 爀攀挀琀愀渀最甀氀愀爀 洀愀礀 戀攀 愀渀 愀爀琀椀昀愀挀琀 漀昀ഊthe modern usage of the word, a box to hold a body. This usage first occurs ਀椀渀 䔀渀最氀椀猀栀 愀爀漀甀渀搀 ㄀㔀㈀㔀 ⠀愀氀琀栀漀甀最栀 琀栀攀 猀愀洀攀 甀猀愀最攀 椀渀 䘀爀攀渀挀栀 搀愀琀攀猀 昀爀漀洀  ഊaround 1330). ਀ഊIn the sense that coffyn is used on this list, it is: (1) a shaped mold of ਀搀漀甀最栀 琀漀 栀漀氀搀 愀 瀀椀攀Ⰰ ⠀㈀⤀ 愀 瀀椀攀 挀爀甀猀琀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 ⠀㌀⤀ 愀 搀椀猀栀 琀漀 栀漀氀搀 愀 瀀椀攀⸀ഊ ਀䤀 栀愀瘀攀渀✀琀 猀攀攀渀 洀甀挀栀 愀戀漀甀琀 琀栀攀 猀椀稀攀 愀渀搀 猀栀愀瀀攀 漀昀 栀愀渀搀 爀愀椀猀攀搀 挀漀昀昀礀渀猀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 昀漀爀ഊpies shaped in a pan I suspect that many of the baking dishes were ਀琀攀爀爀愀挀漀琀琀愀 漀爀 挀攀爀愀洀椀挀 愀渀搀 琀栀愀琀 挀椀爀挀甀氀愀爀 戀愀欀椀渀最 搀椀猀栀攀猀 愀爀攀 攀愀猀椀攀爀 琀漀  ഊproduce than square or rectangular ones. ਀ഊBear ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 吀甀攀Ⰰ ㄀㔀 䨀愀渀 ㈀　　㠀 ㄀㘀㨀　㔀㨀㈀㠀 ⴀ　㔀　　ഊFrom: Johnna Holloway ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 䌀漀昀昀礀渀 瀀愀渀㼀ഊTo: Cooks within the SCA ਀ഊI don't know that all coffyns would have been baked in forms or pans. ਀䤀昀 漀渀攀 甀猀攀猀 愀 猀琀甀爀搀礀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 洀愀搀攀 眀椀琀栀 氀愀爀搀 愀渀搀 攀渀漀甀最栀 昀氀漀甀爀Ⰰ 礀漀甀 挀愀渀 爀愀椀猀攀ഊpastry case that is strong enough to survive without the need of a pan. ਀⠀吀栀椀猀 椀猀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 愀猀 挀漀渀琀愀椀渀攀爀⸀⤀ഊ ਀吀愀欀攀 愀 氀漀漀欀 愀琀 琀栀攀 吀甀搀漀爀 䌀漀漀欀猀 䈀氀漀最ⴀⴀ 琀栀攀爀攀✀猀 愀 瘀椀搀攀漀 琀栀攀爀攀 瀀氀甀猀 瀀椀挀琀甀爀攀猀ഊhttp://tudorcook.blogspot.com/2007/12/get-back-in-that-kitchen.html ਀ഊAlso you might run through Ivan Day's photos and recipes for his various ਀瀀椀攀猀 愀渀搀 瀀愀猀琀爀椀攀猀⸀ഊhttp://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20recipe.htm ਀ഊHe has listed a new course in pastry and pie making. ਀栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀眀眀眀⸀栀椀猀琀漀爀椀挀昀漀漀搀⸀挀漀洀⼀倀椀攀─㈀　䴀愀欀椀渀最─㈀　䌀漀甀爀猀攀⸀栀琀洀ഊ ਀䨀漀栀渀渀愀攀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:01:20 -0800 (PST) ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 䬀愀琀栀攀氀椀渀攀 瘀愀渀 圀攀礀攀 㰀欀愀琀开眀攀礀攀 愀琀 礀愀栀漀漀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn pan? ਀吀漀㨀 䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀㸀 䄀氀猀漀 礀漀甀 洀椀最栀琀 爀甀渀 琀栀爀漀甀最栀 䤀瘀愀渀 䐀愀礀✀猀 瀀栀漀琀漀猀 愀渀搀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀猀 昀漀爀 栀椀猀  ഊ> various pies and pastries. ਀㸀ഊ> http://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20recipe.htm ਀ഊHee! I was there on Boxing Day (which he talks about in the linked blog) with ਀洀礀 栀甀猀戀愀渀搀 愀渀搀 琀眀漀 匀䌀䄀 昀漀漀搀椀攀 昀爀椀攀渀搀猀 愀渀搀 猀瀀漀欀攀 琀漀 琀栀攀 䠀愀洀瀀琀漀渀 䌀漀甀爀琀 ⴀ 吀甀搀漀爀ഊKitchen people at length. Their pies are not baked in a pan. They use a ਀琀栀椀挀欀Ⰰ 琀漀甀最栀 搀漀甀最栀 愀猀 琀栀攀 挀漀渀琀愀椀渀攀爀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 昀椀氀氀椀渀最 愀渀搀 琀栀攀礀 搀漀 渀漀琀 攀愀琀 琀栀攀ഊdough but just toss it away (although likely in period it would've gone to the ਀愀渀椀洀愀氀猀 漀爀 猀甀挀栀⤀⸀  䤀 栀愀瘀攀 瀀椀挀琀甀爀攀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀猀攀 瀀椀攀猀⸀  吀栀攀礀 愀氀猀漀 琀愀氀欀攀搀 愀戀漀甀琀 椀琀攀洀猀ഊthat were baked in pottery and how the pottery wasn't reused. Instead the ਀瀀漀琀琀攀爀礀 眀愀猀 戀爀漀欀攀渀 琀漀 最攀琀 愀琀 琀栀攀 昀漀漀搀 椀渀猀椀搀攀⸀  吀栀攀 瀀漀琀琀攀爀礀 眀愀猀 樀甀猀琀 愀  ഊtemporary form. ਀ഊKatheline van Weye ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 圀攀搀Ⰰ ㄀㘀 䨀愀渀 ㈀　　㠀 　㘀㨀㔀㌀㨀㔀㔀 ⴀ　㔀　　ഊFrom: Nancy Kiel ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 䌀漀昀昀礀渀 瀀愀渀㼀ഊTo: Cooks within the SCA ਀ഊI always assumed these types of pies were made without pans, using a ਀琀栀椀挀欀 猀琀愀渀搀ⴀ愀氀漀渀攀 挀爀甀猀琀 ⠀猀漀洀攀琀椀洀攀猀 洀愀搀攀 眀椀琀栀 爀礀攀 昀氀漀甀爀⤀ 琀栀愀琀 眀愀猀 渀漀琀  ഊintended to be eaten. That way the cook could make any shape he ਀眀愀渀琀攀搀Ⰰ 猀甀挀栀 愀猀 愀 昀椀猀栀 漀爀 愀 氀漀戀猀琀攀爀⸀  刀漀戀攀爀琀 䴀愀礀Ⰰ 愀氀琀栀漀甀最栀 瀀漀猀琀  ഊperiod (1685), has a number of pie designs throughout his cookbook ਀琀栀愀琀 眀漀甀氀搀 栀愀瘀攀 琀漀 戀攀 洀愀搀攀 昀爀攀攀ⴀ栀愀渀搀⸀ഊ ਀一愀渀挀礀 䬀椀攀氀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:17:50 -0500 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀倀栀椀氀 吀爀漀礀 ⼀ 䜀⸀ 吀愀挀椀琀甀猀 䄀搀愀洀愀渀琀椀甀猀∀ 㰀愀搀愀洀愀渀琀椀甀猀㄀ 愀琀 瘀攀爀椀稀漀渀⸀渀攀琀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn pan? ਀吀漀㨀 䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀伀渀 䨀愀渀 ㄀㘀Ⰰ ㈀　　㠀Ⰰ 愀琀 㘀㨀㔀㌀ 䄀䴀Ⰰ 一愀渀挀礀 䬀椀攀氀 眀爀漀琀攀㨀ഊ> I always assumed these types of pies were made without pans, using a ਀㸀 琀栀椀挀欀 猀琀愀渀搀ⴀ愀氀漀渀攀 挀爀甀猀琀 ⠀猀漀洀攀琀椀洀攀猀 洀愀搀攀 眀椀琀栀 爀礀攀 昀氀漀甀爀⤀ 琀栀愀琀 眀愀猀 渀漀琀ഊ> intended to be eaten. That way the cook could make any shape he ਀㸀 眀愀渀琀攀搀Ⰰ 猀甀挀栀 愀猀 愀 昀椀猀栀 漀爀 愀 氀漀戀猀琀攀爀⸀  刀漀戀攀爀琀 䴀愀礀Ⰰ 愀氀琀栀漀甀最栀 瀀漀猀琀ഊ> period (1685), has a number of pie designs throughout his cookbook ਀㸀 琀栀愀琀 眀漀甀氀搀 栀愀瘀攀 琀漀 戀攀 洀愀搀攀 昀爀攀攀ⴀ栀愀渀搀⸀ഊ ਀伀渀攀 瀀爀漀戀氀攀洀 琀漀 戀攀 搀攀愀氀琀 眀椀琀栀 椀猀 琀栀攀 昀愀挀琀 琀栀愀琀 椀琀✀猀 瀀漀瀀甀氀愀爀 椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀ഊto assume that free-standing pies and tarts are made with what amounts ਀琀漀 愀 洀漀搀攀爀渀ⴀ椀猀栀 栀漀琀ⴀ眀愀琀攀爀ⴀ愀渀搀ⴀ氀愀爀搀Ⰰ 漀爀 攀焀甀椀瘀愀氀攀渀琀Ⰰ 瀀愀猀琀爀礀Ⰰ 眀栀攀渀 琀栀攀ഊrelatively few pie crust recipes available don't really establish this ਀愀猀 愀 最椀瘀攀渀⸀ഊ ਀䤀琀✀搀 戀攀 椀渀琀攀爀攀猀琀椀渀最 琀漀 甀猀攀 洀愀氀氀攀愀戀椀氀椀琀礀 瘀攀爀猀甀猀 猀琀爀攀渀最琀栀 ⠀琀栀攀 愀戀椀氀椀琀礀Ⰰഊsay, to hold a filling or a liquid without leaking, breaking, or ਀挀漀氀氀愀瀀猀椀渀最 戀攀昀漀爀攀Ⰰ 搀甀爀椀渀最Ⰰ 漀爀 愀昀琀攀爀 戀愀欀椀渀最⤀ 愀猀 愀 琀攀猀琀 昀漀爀 瘀愀爀椀漀甀猀ഊdough types, such as rye not-very-short-crust, wheat crust with cream, ਀愀 栀漀琀ⴀ眀愀琀攀爀 搀漀甀最栀 漀昀 眀栀攀愀琀Ⰰ 眀栀攀愀琀 愀渀搀 攀最最 礀漀氀欀猀Ⰰ 攀琀挀⸀ഊ ਀伀昀 挀漀甀爀猀攀Ⰰ 漀渀攀 琀栀椀渀最 琀漀 氀漀漀欀 昀漀爀 眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 琀栀攀 愀戀椀氀椀琀礀 琀漀 琀漀氀攀爀愀琀攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀ഊhold through baking, molded or otherwise fine detail. ਀ഊOver this past weekend I had occasion to make a hot-water-and-lard ਀搀漀甀最栀 ⠀猀琀攀愀欀Ⰰ 洀甀猀栀爀漀漀洀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 攀最最Ⰰ 渀漀 欀椀搀渀攀礀猀 漀渀 栀愀渀搀 䤀 眀愀猀渀✀琀 甀猀椀渀最⤀Ⰰഊand in spite of using AP flour, boiling liquid, lard, _and_ letting it ਀爀攀猀琀 戀攀昀漀爀攀 戀愀欀椀渀最Ⰰ 䤀 眀愀猀 猀甀爀瀀爀椀猀攀搀 琀漀 渀漀琀攀 琀栀攀 愀洀漀甀渀琀 漀昀 眀栀愀琀 漀渀攀ഊmight call glutinous distortion of my design in baking. ਀ഊNot that it was a big deal; it wasn't the Palace at Versailles or ਀愀渀礀琀栀椀渀最Ⰰ 樀甀猀琀 猀漀洀攀 栀愀渀搀ⴀ昀氀甀琀椀渀最 愀渀搀 愀 昀攀眀 挀甀琀漀甀琀猀 琀漀 洀愀爀欀 琀栀攀ഊlocation of some marrowbones inside. But after having taken all those ਀猀琀攀瀀猀 琀漀 瀀爀攀瘀攀渀琀 椀琀 昀爀漀洀 挀栀愀渀最椀渀最 猀栀愀瀀攀 眀栀椀氀攀 戀愀欀椀渀最Ⰰ 䤀 眀愀猀 愀 氀椀琀琀氀攀ഊsurprised. It'd be interesting to see which of our available pie dough ਀爀攀挀椀瀀攀猀 眀漀爀欀猀 琀栀攀 戀攀猀琀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 甀渀搀攀爀 眀栀椀挀栀 挀漀渀搀椀琀椀漀渀猀⸀ഊ ਀䄀搀愀洀愀渀琀椀甀猀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:20:25 -0500 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀倀栀椀氀 吀爀漀礀 ⼀ 䜀⸀ 吀愀挀椀琀甀猀 䄀搀愀洀愀渀琀椀甀猀∀ 㰀愀搀愀洀愀渀琀椀甀猀㄀ 愀琀 瘀攀爀椀稀漀渀⸀渀攀琀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn pan? ਀吀漀㨀 䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀伀渀 䨀愀渀 ㄀㜀Ⰰ ㈀　　㠀Ⰰ 愀琀 㘀㨀㔀　 䄀䴀Ⰰ 一愀渀挀礀 䬀椀攀氀 眀爀漀琀攀㨀ഊ> Can you give some examples of free-standing pies made with a crust ਀㸀 漀昀 猀漀洀攀琀栀椀渀最 漀琀栀攀爀 琀栀愀渀 栀漀琀ⴀ眀愀琀攀爀ⴀ愀渀搀ⴀ氀愀爀搀㼀ഊ ਀匀攀瘀攀爀愀氀 攀砀愀洀瀀氀攀猀 漀昀 猀漀洀攀琀栀椀渀最 漀琀栀攀爀 琀栀愀渀 栀漀琀ⴀ眀愀琀攀爀ⴀ愀渀搀ⴀ氀愀爀搀㼀 一漀⸀ 䴀愀礀戀攀ഊa couple: I believe there's a reference to a free-standing tart in Ein ਀䈀甀漀挀栀 嘀漀渀 䜀甀琀攀爀 匀瀀椀猀攀 眀栀漀猀攀 挀爀甀猀琀 椀猀 洀愀搀攀 眀椀琀栀 昀氀漀甀爀 愀渀搀 攀最最 礀漀氀欀猀ഊonly (and that basic formula is repeated in numerous other sources, ਀愀氀琀栀漀甀最栀 渀漀琀 椀渀 搀攀琀愀椀氀Ⰰ 甀渀昀漀爀琀甀渀愀琀攀氀礀⤀⸀ഊ ਀䤀 瘀愀最甀攀氀礀 爀攀挀愀氀氀 愀 爀攀昀攀爀攀渀挀攀 琀漀 愀 猀栀漀爀琀 搀漀甀最栀 洀愀搀攀 眀椀琀栀 挀栀漀瀀瀀攀搀ഊlardons (but not hot water, IIRC); this would be more like an English ਀猀甀攀琀 挀爀甀猀琀 昀漀爀 猀琀攀愀洀攀搀 瀀甀搀搀椀渀最猀㬀 䤀 琀栀椀渀欀 琀栀愀琀✀猀 椀渀挀氀甀搀攀搀 椀渀 猀漀洀攀ഊedition of Le Viandier (Pichon edition???). Unfortunately, it seems ਀氀椀欀攀 洀漀猀琀 洀攀搀椀攀瘀愀氀 瀀椀攀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀猀 搀漀渀✀琀 爀攀愀氀氀礀 琀愀氀欀 愀戀漀甀琀 琀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀Ⰰഊother than to tell you to make one, and then fill it with X. ਀ഊLater in the SCA period, there's a piecrust recipe in, I think, A Newe ਀倀爀漀瀀攀爀 䈀漀欀攀 漀昀 䌀漀漀欀攀爀礀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 䤀 搀漀渀✀琀 爀攀挀愀氀氀 搀攀琀愀椀氀猀 愀渀搀 搀漀渀✀琀 栀愀瘀攀 椀琀ഊhandy, but I don't recall it being made with any hot liquid. I think ਀椀琀 洀愀礀 挀愀氀氀 昀漀爀 戀甀琀琀攀爀 愀渀搀 礀漀氀欀猀⸀ 䤀 琀栀椀渀欀 䐀椀最戀礀✀猀 挀栀攀攀猀攀挀愀欀攀 挀爀甀猀琀ഊcalls for yolks and cream. ਀ഊGervase Markham is the only one I can think of that routinely calls ਀昀漀爀 栀漀琀 眀愀琀攀爀 琀漀 戀攀 甀猀攀搀Ⰰ 愀氀漀渀最 眀椀琀栀 戀甀琀琀攀爀 漀爀 猀眀攀攀琀 猀攀愀洀攀Ⰰ 戀愀猀椀挀愀氀氀礀ഊthe fat skimmed off the top of boiled, fatty meats, to make stiff rye ਀挀爀甀猀琀猀 昀漀爀 瀀椀攀猀 琀漀 戀攀 欀攀瀀琀 愀 氀漀渀最 琀椀洀攀⸀ 䠀攀 愀氀猀漀 琀愀氀欀猀 愀戀漀甀琀 挀爀甀猀琀ഊheight, so we have to assume falling and cracking crusts would be a ਀挀漀渀挀攀爀渀Ⰰ 猀漀 琀栀愀琀 猀甀最最攀猀琀猀 愀琀 氀攀愀猀琀 愀 最漀漀搀 挀栀愀渀挀攀 眀攀✀爀攀 琀愀氀欀椀渀最 愀戀漀甀琀 愀ഊfree-standing pastry shell. ਀ഊNow, that is quite sketchy at best, but how many examples can you ਀琀栀椀渀欀 漀昀 琀栀愀琀 愀挀琀甀愀氀氀礀 挀愀氀氀 昀漀爀 氀愀爀搀 ⠀漀爀 攀瘀攀渀 漀琀栀攀爀 昀愀琀⤀ 洀攀氀琀攀搀 眀椀琀栀ഊboiling water and added, while still hot, to flour, which is what I'd ਀搀攀昀椀渀攀 愀猀 愀 栀漀琀ⴀ眀愀琀攀爀 挀爀甀猀琀㼀ഊ ਀䄀搀愀洀愀渀琀椀甀猀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:54:48 -0600 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀吀攀爀爀礀 䐀攀挀欀攀爀∀ 㰀琀⸀搀⸀搀攀挀欀攀爀 愀琀 眀漀爀氀搀渀攀琀⸀愀琀琀⸀渀攀琀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn pan? ਀吀漀㨀 ∀䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀∀ 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀∀吀眀攀氀瘀攀 瘀漀礀搀攀爀猀Ⰰ 愀 挀甀猀琀愀爀搀 挀漀昀昀椀渀⸀∀  ⠀㄀㔀㠀　Ⰰ 愀猀 焀甀漀琀攀搀 椀渀 圀愀搀氀攀礀Ⰰ 䈀爀椀猀琀漀氀ഊWills, 1886). ਀ഊShakespere, The Taming of the Shrew iv iii 82 (1596) "PETRUCHIO: Why, thou ਀猀愀礀✀猀琀 琀爀甀攀㬀 椀琀 椀猀 愀 瀀愀氀琀爀礀 挀愀瀀Ⰰ 䄀 挀甀猀琀愀爀搀ⴀ挀漀昀昀椀渀Ⰰ 愀 戀愀甀戀氀攀Ⰰ 愀 猀椀氀欀攀渀 瀀椀攀㨀ഊI love thee well, in that thou likest it not." ਀ഊ"Coffins of whyte plate." (1602, Plat, Delightes for Ladies). ਀ഊTo be fair, Shakespere refers to hand raised coffins in Titus Adronicus ਀⠀㄀㔀㠀㠀⤀Ⰰ 猀漀 戀漀琀栀 搀攀昀椀渀椀琀椀漀渀猀 眀攀爀攀 甀猀攀搀 椀渀 䔀氀椀稀愀戀攀琀栀攀愀渀 䔀渀最氀愀渀搀⸀ഊ ਀䈀攀愀爀ഊ=========== ਀䌀愀渀 礀漀甀 最椀瘀攀 猀漀洀攀 攀砀愀洀瀀氀攀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀 氀愀琀攀 ㄀㘀琀栀 挀攀渀琀甀爀礀 甀猀愀最攀㼀ഊ ਀一愀渀挀礀 䬀椀攀氀ഊ ਀㸀 䤀渀 最攀渀攀爀愀氀Ⰰ 䤀 眀漀甀氀搀 愀最爀攀攀 眀椀琀栀 礀漀甀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 最椀瘀攀渀 愀 ㄀　　　⬀ 礀攀愀爀 猀瀀愀渀Ⰰ 眀漀爀搀 甀猀愀最攀ഊ> changes. In the 14th Century these would likely be the hand raised mold of ਀㸀 搀漀甀最栀Ⰰ 戀礀 琀栀攀 氀愀琀攀 ㄀㘀琀栀 䌀攀渀琀甀爀礀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 搀椀猀栀 琀漀 栀漀氀搀 琀栀攀 瀀椀攀 愀渀搀 瀀漀猀猀椀戀氀礀 挀爀甀猀琀ഊ> is included. Modernly, these usages are considered archaic and obsolete. ਀㸀ഊ> Bear ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 吀栀甀Ⰰ ㄀㜀 䨀愀渀 ㈀　　㠀 ㄀㔀㨀　㌀㨀㄀㈀ ⴀ　㘀　　ഊFrom: "Terry Decker" ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 䌀漀昀昀礀渀 瀀愀渀㼀ഊTo: "Cooks within the SCA" ਀ഊA hand raised pie crust isn't much of a display of wealth. It's far less ਀攀砀瀀攀渀猀椀瘀攀 琀栀愀渀 戀爀攀愀搀 琀爀攀渀挀栀攀爀猀 愀渀搀 挀栀攀愀瀀攀爀 琀栀愀渀 戀爀攀愀欀椀渀最 挀爀漀挀欀攀爀礀⸀  䤀 眀漀甀氀搀ഊthink a functional decoration might be more to the point. ਀ഊWhile it wouldn't be eaten at table, the pie shell would probably be ਀愀挀挀漀甀渀琀攀搀 昀漀爀 戀礀 瘀漀椀搀椀渀最 椀琀 昀漀爀 搀椀猀瀀攀渀猀椀渀最 戀礀 琀栀攀 愀氀洀漀渀攀爀⸀ഊ ਀䈀攀愀爀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:21:56 -0500 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀倀栀椀氀 吀爀漀礀 ⼀ 䜀⸀ 吀愀挀椀琀甀猀 䄀搀愀洀愀渀琀椀甀猀∀ 㰀愀搀愀洀愀渀琀椀甀猀㄀ 愀琀 瘀攀爀椀稀漀渀⸀渀攀琀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn pan? ਀吀漀㨀 䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀伀渀 䨀愀渀 ㄀㘀Ⰰ ㈀　　㠀Ⰰ 愀琀 㠀㨀㌀㤀 倀䴀Ⰰ 䄀甀搀爀攀礀 䈀攀爀最攀爀漀渀ⴀ䴀漀爀椀渀 眀爀漀琀攀㨀ഊ>> free-standing pies and tarts are made with what amounts ਀㸀㸀 琀漀 愀 洀漀搀攀爀渀ⴀ椀猀栀 栀漀琀ⴀ眀愀琀攀爀ⴀ愀渀搀ⴀ氀愀爀搀Ⰰ 漀爀 攀焀甀椀瘀愀氀攀渀琀Ⰰ 瀀愀猀琀爀礀Ⰰഊ> ਀㸀 圀愀椀琀愀洀椀渀甀琀攀⸀⸀⸀ 圀攀 栀愀瘀攀 琀栀攀 攀琀攀爀渀愀氀 焀甀攀猀琀椀漀渀猀 愀戀漀甀琀 戀爀攀愀搀 戀漀眀氀猀⸀⸀⸀ 椀琀ഊ> shouldn't be *bread* bowls, it should be *pastry* bowls! Cook ਀㸀 猀漀洀攀琀栀椀渀最 椀渀 愀 挀漀昀昀礀渀Ⰰ 琀愀欀攀 漀昀昀 琀栀攀 甀瀀瀀攀爀 挀爀甀猀琀⸀⸀⸀ 瘀漀椀氀㼀℀ഊ ਀圀攀氀氀⸀⸀⸀ 礀攀愀栀⸀ഊ ਀圀栀愀琀 攀琀攀爀渀愀氀 焀甀攀猀琀椀漀渀 愀戀漀甀琀 戀爀攀愀搀 戀漀眀氀猀㼀 䄀爀漀甀渀搀 栀攀爀攀 椀渀 洀礀 氀漀挀愀氀 最爀漀甀瀀ഊmany people tend to think they're just a little bit silly... ਀ഊBut sure. Pastry coffins are used for other things besides what we ਀琀栀椀渀欀 漀昀 愀猀 瀀椀攀猀 愀渀搀 琀愀爀琀猀⸀ 吀栀攀 刀漀洀愀渀猀 戀愀欀攀搀 栀愀洀猀 椀渀 琀栀攀洀 ⠀愀渀搀 琀栀攀渀ഊremoved them). There are some late-period candy recipes that call for ਀漀渀攀 猀琀愀最攀 漀爀 愀渀漀琀栀攀爀 琀漀 戀攀 瀀氀愀挀攀搀 椀渀 愀 挀漀昀昀椀渀Ⰰ 漀爀 猀漀洀攀 漀琀栀攀爀 戀漀砀 琀栀愀琀ഊcan be sealed, and "cured" in a warm oven or near the hearth. ਀ഊI've seen stew-like pottages served in pie shells with a lid, and I've ਀愀氀猀漀 洀愀搀攀 昀爀攀攀ⴀ猀琀愀渀搀椀渀最 瀀椀攀猀 眀椀琀栀 愀 爀漀挀欀ⴀ栀愀爀搀 猀椀搀攀 愀渀搀 戀漀琀琀漀洀 挀爀甀猀琀 愀猀ഊa container, and distinctly edible puff pastry on top, which, if I say ਀猀漀 洀礀猀攀氀昀Ⰰ 椀猀 瀀爀攀琀琀礀 猀瀀攀挀琀愀挀甀氀愀爀ⴀ氀漀漀欀椀渀最⸀ 䰀漀漀欀猀 氀椀欀攀 愀 最漀氀搀攀渀 栀愀琀ⴀ戀漀砀ഊfull of food... ਀ഊAdamantius ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 吀栀甀Ⰰ ㄀　 䄀瀀爀 ㈀　　㠀 ㄀㈀㨀㌀㤀㨀㌀㌀ ⴀ　㔀　　ഊFrom: "Terry Decker" ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 䘀氀漀甀爀 刀攀挀漀洀洀攀渀搀愀琀椀漀渀㼀ഊTo: , "Cooks within the SCA" ਀ऀ㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀吀漀 焀甀漀琀攀 䤀瘀愀渀 䐀愀礀Ⰰ ∀倀椀攀猀 漀昀 琀栀椀猀 欀椀渀搀 眀攀爀攀 挀漀渀猀琀爀甀挀琀攀搀 昀爀漀洀 愀 ✀猀琀愀渀搀椀渀最ഊcrust' made by mixing boiling water and butter into the flour. Once cold, ਀琀栀椀猀 猀琀椀昀昀 最氀甀琀攀渀ⴀ爀椀挀栀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 眀愀猀 椀搀攀愀氀 昀漀爀 爀愀椀猀椀渀最 琀栀攀猀攀 挀漀洀瀀氀攀砀ഊstructures, though it did not make for particularly good eating." (Eat, ਀䐀爀椀渀欀 ☀ 䈀攀 䴀攀爀爀礀⤀ഊ ਀䘀爀漀洀 琀栀攀 愀戀漀瘀攀 焀甀漀琀攀Ⰰ 愀氀氀 瀀甀爀瀀漀猀攀 漀爀 栀椀最栀 最氀甀琀攀渀 戀爀攀愀搀 昀氀漀甀爀 眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 琀栀攀ഊchoice, since the plan is to make a high gluten, not so flakey crust. A ਀猀漀昀琀  洀漀搀攀爀渀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 挀爀甀猀琀 ⠀䤀䤀刀䌀⤀ 椀猀 爀漀甀最栀氀礀 ㌀ 瀀愀爀琀猀 昀氀漀甀爀Ⰰ ㈀ 瀀愀爀琀猀 昀愀琀Ⰰ 愀渀搀ഊ1 part water by weight, so 2:1 or 3:1 might be a good ratio of flour to ਀戀甀琀琀攀爀⸀  吀漀 昀漀爀洀 琀栀攀 爀攀焀甀椀猀椀琀攀 最氀甀琀攀渀Ⰰ 礀漀甀✀氀氀 瀀爀漀戀愀戀氀礀 眀愀渀琀 琀漀 眀漀爀欀 琀栀椀猀ഊlike a bread dough rather than a pastry dough. ਀ഊBear ਀ഊ> Greetings! It was pointed out that perhaps the somewhat floppy dough that ਀㸀 爀攀猀甀氀琀攀搀 ⠀椀渀 洀礀 愀琀琀攀洀瀀琀 愀琀 愀 栀愀渀搀ⴀ爀愀椀猀攀搀 琀愀爀琀 挀愀猀攀⤀ 挀漀甀氀搀 栀愀瘀攀 戀攀攀渀 琀栀攀ഊ> type of flour. I used what was in the cannister - all purpose flour. I ਀㸀 眀愀渀琀 琀漀 琀爀礀 琀栀攀 搀漀甀最栀 愀最愀椀渀⸀  䤀琀 眀椀氀氀 戀攀 琀眀椀挀攀 愀猀 洀甀挀栀 昀氀漀甀爀 戀礀 眀攀椀最栀琀 愀猀ഊ> butter. Water is the only liquid. What type of flour might be better for ਀㸀 愀 猀琀甀爀搀椀攀爀 搀漀甀最栀㼀  䈀爀攀愀搀 昀氀漀甀爀㼀  倀愀猀琀爀礀 昀氀漀甀爀㼀  匀漀洀攀琀栀椀渀最 攀氀猀攀㼀ഊ> ਀㸀 䄀氀礀猀 䬀愀琀栀愀爀椀渀攀Ⰰ 最漀椀渀最 昀爀漀洀 猀甀最愀爀 琀漀 昀氀漀甀爀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:52:59 -0500 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀吀攀爀爀礀 䐀攀挀欀攀爀∀ 㰀琀⸀搀⸀搀攀挀欀攀爀 愀琀 眀漀爀氀搀渀攀琀⸀愀琀琀⸀渀攀琀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Flour Recommendation? ਀吀漀㨀 㰀攀搀漀愀爀搀 愀琀 洀攀搀椀攀瘀愀氀挀漀漀欀攀爀礀⸀挀漀洀㸀Ⰰऀ∀䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀∀ഊ ਀ഊOf the Mixture of Paste. Your course Wheat-crust should be kneaded with ਀栀漀琀 眀愀琀攀爀Ⰰ 漀爀 䴀甀琀琀漀渀 戀爀漀琀栀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 愀 最漀漀搀 猀琀漀爀攀 漀昀 戀甀琀琀攀爀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 琀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀攀 洀愀搀攀ഊstiffe and tough, because that Coffin must be deep. ਀ഊGervase Markham, The English Hous-wife ਀ഊTo make Paste another Way. Take butter and ale, and seeth them together: ਀琀栀攀渀 琀愀欀攀 礀漀甀爀 昀氀漀眀攀爀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 瀀甀琀 琀栀攀爀攀 椀渀琀漀 琀栀爀攀攀 攀最猀Ⰰ 猀甀最愀爀Ⰰ 猀愀昀昀爀漀渀 愀渀搀ഊsalt. ਀ഊThe Good Huswives Handmaid ਀ഊFrom these the chosen fat is butter, but it is likely to be melted into the ਀氀椀焀甀漀爀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 搀漀甀最栀⸀  䤀琀 愀氀猀漀 猀甀最最攀猀琀猀 琀漀 洀攀 琀栀愀琀 椀琀 洀椀最栀琀 戀攀 眀漀爀琀栀ഊtrying this with a whole wheat flour that has been sifted to remove the ਀戀爀愀渀⸀  䄀渀搀Ⰰ 䤀䤀刀䌀Ⰰ 琀栀攀爀攀 椀猀 愀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀 昀漀爀 愀 爀礀攀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 搀漀甀最栀 愀猀 瀀愀爀琀 漀昀 愀ഊrecipe in Sabina Welser. ਀ഊIf your dough is soft, then you may have too much fat in the mix or you ਀栀愀瘀攀渀✀琀 眀漀爀欀攀搀 椀琀 栀愀爀搀 攀渀漀甀最栀 琀漀 瀀爀漀瀀攀爀氀礀 昀漀爀洀 琀栀攀 最氀甀琀攀渀⸀ഊ ਀䈀攀愀爀ഊ ਀㸀 䤀琀 洀椀最栀琀 戀攀⸀  䤀✀氀氀 戀攀 椀渀琀攀爀攀猀琀攀搀 椀渀 栀攀愀爀椀渀最 琀栀攀ഊ> thoughts of others on this, since I also use all ਀㸀 瀀甀爀瀀漀猀攀 昀氀漀甀爀 愀渀搀 栀愀瘀攀 戀攀攀渀 栀愀瘀椀渀最 琀栀攀 猀愀洀攀 椀猀猀甀攀猀ഊ> with pie crusts. ਀㸀ഊ> However, I also suspect that it may be the choice of ਀㸀 昀愀琀⸀  唀猀椀渀最 琀栀攀 猀愀洀攀 洀攀琀栀漀搀猀Ⰰ 䤀 昀椀渀搀 琀栀愀琀 搀漀甀最栀 洀愀搀攀ഊ> with butter is much softer and delicate than dough ਀㸀 洀愀搀攀 眀椀琀栀 䌀爀椀猀挀漀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀 䴀礀 猀甀猀瀀椀挀椀漀渀 椀猀 琀栀愀琀 眀攀 戀漀琀栀 渀攀攀搀 琀漀 甀猀攀 氀愀爀搀 ⴀ 愀渀搀ഊ> since I'll be making a pie tonight, I'll try it out ਀㸀 樀甀猀琀 琀漀 猀攀攀 眀栀愀琀 ⠀椀昀 愀渀礀⤀ 搀椀昀昀攀爀攀渀挀攀 椀琀 洀愀欀攀猀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀 ⴀ 䐀漀挀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:19:55 -0700 (PDT) ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 䐀漀挀 㰀攀搀漀愀爀搀 愀琀 洀攀搀椀攀瘀愀氀挀漀漀欀攀爀礀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Flour Recommendation? ਀吀漀㨀 䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀ⴀⴀⴀ 吀攀爀爀礀 䐀攀挀欀攀爀 㰀琀⸀搀⸀搀攀挀欀攀爀 愀琀 眀漀爀氀搀渀攀琀⸀愀琀琀⸀渀攀琀㸀 眀爀漀琀攀㨀ഊ> If your dough is soft, then you may have too much ਀㸀 昀愀琀 椀渀 琀栀攀 洀椀砀 漀爀 礀漀甀ഊ> haven't worked it hard enough to properly form the gluten. ਀ഊI used the same quantities of fat and flour, and ਀眀漀爀欀攀搀 琀栀攀洀 戀漀琀栀 琀栀攀 猀愀洀攀 愀洀漀甀渀琀 ⴀ 搀漀甀最栀 甀猀椀渀最 戀甀琀琀攀爀ഊis softer than that using Crisco. ਀ഊAs for the kind of fat used in period, I have found ਀爀攀昀攀爀攀渀挀攀猀 琀漀 昀愀琀猀 漀琀栀攀爀 琀栀愀渀 戀甀琀琀攀爀 戀攀椀渀最 甀猀攀搀 愀猀ഊwell. ਀ഊSource [Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin, V. Armstrong ਀⠀琀爀愀渀猀⸀⤀崀㨀 㘀㄀ 吀漀 洀愀欀攀 愀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 搀漀甀最栀 昀漀爀 愀氀氀 猀栀愀瀀攀搀ഊpies. Take flour, the best that you can get, about two ਀栀愀渀搀昀甀氀猀Ⰰ 搀攀瀀攀渀搀椀渀最 漀渀 栀漀眀 氀愀爀最攀 漀爀 猀洀愀氀氀 礀漀甀 眀漀甀氀搀ഊhave the pie. Put it on the table and with a knife ਀猀琀椀爀 椀渀 琀眀漀 攀最最猀 愀渀搀 愀 氀椀琀琀氀攀 猀愀氀琀⸀ 倀甀琀 眀愀琀攀爀 椀渀 愀ഊsmall pan and a piece of fat the size of two good ਀攀最最猀Ⰰ 氀攀琀 椀琀 愀氀氀 搀椀猀猀漀氀瘀攀 琀漀最攀琀栀攀爀 愀渀搀 戀漀椀氀⸀ഊAfterwards pour it on the flour on the table and make ਀愀 猀琀爀漀渀最 搀漀甀最栀 愀渀搀 眀漀爀欀 椀琀 眀攀氀氀Ⰰ 栀漀眀攀瘀攀爀 礀漀甀 昀攀攀氀 椀猀ഊright. If it is summer, one must take meat broth ਀椀渀猀琀攀愀搀 漀昀 眀愀琀攀爀 愀渀搀 椀渀 琀栀攀 瀀氀愀挀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 昀愀琀 琀栀攀ഊskimmings from the broth.... (Germany, c. 1553) ਀ഊMany of the recipes state to use fat, but do not ਀猀瀀攀挀椀昀礀 眀栀愀琀 欀椀渀搀⸀ഊ ਀ⴀ㴀ⴀ㴀ⴀഊ ਀㸀 吀漀 焀甀漀琀攀 䤀瘀愀渀 䐀愀礀Ⰰ ∀倀椀攀猀 漀昀 琀栀椀猀 欀椀渀搀 眀攀爀攀 挀漀渀猀琀爀甀挀琀攀搀 昀爀漀洀 愀 ✀猀琀愀渀搀椀渀最ഊ> crust' made by mixing boiling water and butter into the flour. Once ਀㸀 挀漀氀搀Ⰰ 琀栀椀猀 猀琀椀昀昀 最氀甀琀攀渀ⴀ爀椀挀栀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 眀愀猀 椀搀攀愀氀 昀漀爀 爀愀椀猀椀渀最 琀栀攀猀攀 挀漀洀瀀氀攀砀ഊ> structures, though it did not make for particularly good eating." ਀㸀 ⠀䔀愀琀Ⰰ 䐀爀椀渀欀 ☀ 䈀攀 䴀攀爀爀礀⤀ഊ ਀圀栀愀琀 猀漀甀爀挀攀 搀漀攀猀 栀攀 瀀爀漀瘀椀搀攀 昀漀爀 琀栀椀猀㼀  吀栀椀猀 猀漀甀渀搀猀ഊlike the traditional English method for making pie ਀挀爀甀猀琀猀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 椀猀渀✀琀 琀栀攀 漀渀氀礀 洀攀琀栀漀搀 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 猀攀攀渀 椀渀 琀栀攀ഊprimary sources (e.g. rubbing or cutting the fat into ਀琀栀攀 昀氀漀甀爀⤀⸀ഊ ਀䘀甀爀琀栀攀爀Ⰰ 漀渀攀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀 昀漀爀 瀀椀攀 挀爀甀猀琀猀 椀渀 ∀吀栀攀 䜀漀漀搀ഊHuswifes Handmaide for the Kitchen" specifically warns ਀琀栀攀 挀漀漀欀 渀漀琀 琀漀 甀猀攀 琀漀 洀愀渀礀 攀最最 礀漀氀欀猀 愀猀 椀琀 眀椀氀氀 ∀洀愀欀攀ഊit drie and not pleasant in eating" which contradicts ਀琀栀攀 挀漀洀洀漀渀 愀猀猀攀爀琀椀漀渀 琀栀愀琀 猀琀愀渀搀椀渀最 挀爀甀猀琀猀 眀攀爀攀ഊ*always* inedible (I will grant that they may have ਀猀漀洀攀琀椀洀攀猀 戀攀攀渀 椀渀攀搀椀戀氀攀⤀⸀ഊ ਀ⴀ 䐀漀挀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:49:23 -0500 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀吀攀爀爀礀 䐀攀挀欀攀爀∀ 㰀琀⸀搀⸀搀攀挀欀攀爀 愀琀 眀漀爀氀搀渀攀琀⸀愀琀琀⸀渀攀琀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Flour Recommendation? ਀吀漀㨀 㰀攀搀漀愀爀搀 愀琀 洀攀搀椀攀瘀愀氀挀漀漀欀攀爀礀⸀挀漀洀㸀Ⰰऀ∀䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀∀ഊ ਀ഊ> --- Terry Decker wrote: ਀㸀㸀 䤀昀 礀漀甀爀 搀漀甀最栀 椀猀 猀漀昀琀Ⰰ 琀栀攀渀 礀漀甀 洀愀礀 栀愀瘀攀 琀漀漀 洀甀挀栀ഊ>> fat in the mix or you ਀㸀㸀 栀愀瘀攀渀✀琀 眀漀爀欀攀搀 椀琀 栀愀爀搀 攀渀漀甀最栀 琀漀 瀀爀漀瀀攀爀氀礀 昀漀爀洀 琀栀攀 最氀甀琀攀渀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀 䤀 甀猀攀搀 琀栀攀 猀愀洀攀 焀甀愀渀琀椀琀椀攀猀 漀昀 昀愀琀 愀渀搀 昀氀漀甀爀Ⰰ 愀渀搀ഊ> worked them both the same amount - dough using butter ਀㸀 椀猀 猀漀昀琀攀爀 琀栀愀渀 琀栀愀琀 甀猀椀渀最 䌀爀椀猀挀漀⸀ഊ ਀䤀 眀愀猀 猀瀀攀愀欀椀渀最 椀渀 琀栀攀 最攀渀攀爀愀氀 挀愀猀攀 爀愀琀栀攀爀 琀栀愀渀 愀猀 愀 搀椀昀昀攀爀攀渀琀椀愀琀椀漀渀 戀攀琀眀攀攀渀ഊfats. Different fats will give varying results, but the more of any ਀昀愀琀 礀漀甀 愀搀搀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 猀漀昀琀攀爀 琀栀攀 搀漀甀最栀 椀渀 最攀渀攀爀愀氀⸀ഊ ਀㰀挀氀椀瀀瀀攀搀㸀ഊ>> To quote Ivan Day, "Pies of this kind were constructed from a 'standing ਀㸀㸀 挀爀甀猀琀✀ 洀愀搀攀 戀礀 洀椀砀椀渀最 戀漀椀氀椀渀最 眀愀琀攀爀 愀渀搀 戀甀琀琀攀爀 椀渀琀漀 琀栀攀 昀氀漀甀爀⸀  伀渀挀攀ഊ>> cold, this stiff gluten-rich pastry was ideal for raising these complex ਀㸀㸀 猀琀爀甀挀琀甀爀攀猀Ⰰ 琀栀漀甀最栀 椀琀 搀椀搀 渀漀琀 洀愀欀攀 昀漀爀 瀀愀爀琀椀挀甀氀愀爀氀礀 最漀漀搀 攀愀琀椀渀最⸀∀ഊ>> (Eat, Drink & Be Merry) ਀㸀ഊ> What source does he provide for this? This sounds ਀㸀 氀椀欀攀 琀栀攀 琀爀愀搀椀琀椀漀渀愀氀 䔀渀最氀椀猀栀 洀攀琀栀漀搀 昀漀爀 洀愀欀椀渀最 瀀椀攀ഊ> crusts, but isn't the only method I have seen in the ਀㸀 瀀爀椀洀愀爀礀 猀漀甀爀挀攀猀 ⠀攀⸀最⸀ 爀甀戀戀椀渀最 漀爀 挀甀琀琀椀渀最 琀栀攀 昀愀琀 椀渀琀漀ഊ> the flour). ਀ഊI gather he has quite a bit of practical experience at raising standing ਀挀爀甀猀琀猀 愀渀搀 栀愀猀 眀爀椀琀琀攀渀 漀渀 琀栀攀 瀀爀漀挀攀猀猀⸀  䤀渀 琀栀椀猀 挀愀猀攀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 椀渀昀漀爀洀愀琀椀漀渀 椀猀ഊtaken from a recreation of the Duke of Newcastle's feast from the latter ਀栀愀氀昀 漀昀 琀栀攀 ㄀㜀琀栀 䌀攀渀琀甀爀礀 愀猀 最椀瘀攀渀 椀渀 倀愀琀爀椀挀欀 䰀愀洀戀✀猀 刀漀礀愀氀 䌀漀漀欀攀爀礀Ⰰ 眀椀琀栀 瀀椀攀ഊdesigns taken from Robert May Accomplisht Cook and Edward Kidder Receipts in ਀倀愀猀琀爀礀 愀渀搀 䌀漀漀欀攀爀礀⸀  䄀氀氀 琀栀爀攀攀 猀漀甀爀挀攀猀 愀爀攀 眀攀氀氀 漀甀琀猀椀搀攀 匀䌀䄀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀 戀甀琀ഊprobably of use in considering this subject. ਀ഊ> Further, one recipe for pie crusts in "The Good ਀㸀 䠀甀猀眀椀昀攀猀 䠀愀渀搀洀愀椀搀攀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 䬀椀琀挀栀攀渀∀ 猀瀀攀挀椀昀椀挀愀氀氀礀 眀愀爀渀猀ഊ> the cook not to use to many egg yolks as it will "make ਀㸀 椀琀 搀爀椀攀 愀渀搀 渀漀琀 瀀氀攀愀猀愀渀琀 椀渀 攀愀琀椀渀最∀ 眀栀椀挀栀 挀漀渀琀爀愀搀椀挀琀猀ഊ> the common assertion that standing crusts were ਀㸀 ⨀愀氀眀愀礀猀⨀ 椀渀攀搀椀戀氀攀 ⠀䤀 眀椀氀氀 最爀愀渀琀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀礀 洀愀礀 栀愀瘀攀ഊ> sometimes been inedible). ਀㸀ഊ> - Doc ਀ഊBut is it a "standing crust?" I've encountered a few recipes that make ਀椀渀琀攀爀攀猀琀椀渀最 愀渀搀 攀搀椀戀氀攀 挀爀甀猀琀猀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 爀攀愀氀氀礀 渀攀攀搀 愀 琀愀爀琀 瀀愀渀 琀漀 栀漀氀搀 琀栀攀椀爀ഊshape. I suspect the "inedibilty" may be more likely for the hard, ਀栀愀渀搀ⴀ爀愀椀猀攀搀 挀漀昀昀椀渀Ⰰ 琀栀愀渀 猀漀洀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 猀漀昀琀攀爀 瀀椀攀 猀栀攀氀氀猀⸀  䤀琀 洀椀最栀琀 戀攀ഊinteresting to assemble all of the pastry recipes and try to categorize them ਀戀礀 琀栀攀 爀愀琀椀漀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀椀爀 椀渀最爀攀搀椀攀渀琀猀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 琀栀愀琀 椀猀 眀漀爀欀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 昀甀琀甀爀攀⸀ഊ ਀䈀攀愀爀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:21:45 -0400 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀䔀氀椀猀攀 䘀氀攀洀椀渀最∀ 㰀愀氀礀猀欀 愀琀 椀砀⸀渀攀琀挀漀洀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Flour Recommendation? ਀吀漀㨀 ∀吀攀爀爀礀 䐀攀挀欀攀爀∀ 㰀琀⸀搀⸀搀攀挀欀攀爀 愀琀 眀漀爀氀搀渀攀琀⸀愀琀琀⸀渀攀琀㸀Ⰰऀ∀䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀ഊ SCA" ਀ഊBear responded to my query: ਀ഊ> To quote Ivan Day, "Pies of this kind were constructed from a 'standing ਀㸀 挀爀甀猀琀✀ 洀愀搀攀 戀礀 洀椀砀椀渀最 戀漀椀氀椀渀最 眀愀琀攀爀 愀渀搀 戀甀琀琀攀爀 椀渀琀漀 琀栀攀 昀氀漀甀爀⸀  伀渀挀攀 挀漀氀搀Ⰰഊ> this stiff gluten-rich pastry was ideal for raising these complex ਀㸀 猀琀爀甀挀琀甀爀攀猀Ⰰ 琀栀漀甀最栀 椀琀 搀椀搀 渀漀琀 洀愀欀攀 昀漀爀 瀀愀爀琀椀挀甀氀愀爀氀礀 最漀漀搀  ഊ> eating." (Eat, Drink & Be Merry) ਀ഊI had asked Robin about the texture of the tart's crust and he had said it ਀眀愀猀 攀搀椀戀氀攀Ⰰ 渀漀琀 樀甀猀琀 愀 挀漀渀琀愀椀渀攀爀 愀猀 䤀瘀愀渀 椀猀 爀攀昀攀爀爀椀渀最 琀漀Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 椀猀 眀栀愀琀 䤀ഊwas trying to go for. I can see on the Hampton Court blog's video that at ਀氀攀愀猀琀 昀漀爀 栀椀猀 挀栀攀眀椀琀琀猀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 搀漀甀最栀 椀猀 愀 氀椀琀琀氀攀 漀渀 琀栀攀 ∀昀氀漀瀀瀀礀∀ 猀椀搀攀 猀椀渀挀攀ഊwhen he raises the sides he smooshes the top rim into a narrower opening ਀琀栀愀渀 眀漀甀氀搀 爀攀猀甀氀琀 椀昀 栀攀 樀甀猀琀 爀愀椀猀攀搀 琀栀攀 猀椀搀攀 愀渀搀 昀氀甀琀攀搀 椀琀⸀  䴀礀 最爀椀瀀攀 愀戀漀甀琀ഊmy dough is that it was too floppy to lift onto a wide knife as the fluting ਀瘀椀搀攀漀 猀栀漀眀猀⸀  吀栀攀 挀漀洀瀀氀攀琀攀搀 琀愀爀琀 眀椀琀栀 氀椀搀 愀挀琀甀愀氀氀礀 搀椀搀 欀攀攀瀀 椀琀猀 猀栀愀瀀攀ഊpretty well when baking but I certainly wasn't able to lift it and lay it ਀漀渀 琀栀攀 搀漀甀最栀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 氀椀搀 琀漀 甀猀攀 愀猀 愀 琀攀洀瀀氀愀琀攀 琀栀攀 眀愀礀 刀漀戀椀渀 搀漀攀猀 椀琀  ഊin the video. ਀ഊ> From the above quote, all purpose or high gluten bread flour would be the ਀㸀 挀栀漀椀挀攀Ⰰ 猀椀渀挀攀 琀栀攀 瀀氀愀渀 椀猀 琀漀 洀愀欀攀 愀 栀椀最栀 最氀甀琀攀渀Ⰰ 渀漀琀 猀漀 昀氀愀欀攀礀 挀爀甀猀琀⸀  䄀ഊ> soft modern pastry crust (IIRC) is roughly 3 parts flour, 2 parts fat, and ਀㸀 ㄀ 瀀愀爀琀 眀愀琀攀爀 戀礀 眀攀椀最栀琀Ⰰ 猀漀 ㈀㨀㄀ 漀爀 ㌀㨀㄀ 洀椀最栀琀 戀攀 愀 最漀漀搀 爀愀琀椀漀 漀昀 昀氀漀甀爀 琀漀ഊ> butter. To form the requisite gluten, you'll probably want to work ਀㸀 琀栀椀猀 氀椀欀攀 愀 戀爀攀愀搀 搀漀甀最栀 爀愀琀栀攀爀 琀栀愀渀 愀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 搀漀甀最栀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀愀渀欀猀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 渀甀洀戀攀爀猀⸀  䤀✀瘀攀 搀漀渀攀 琀栀攀 ㈀㨀㄀ 愀渀搀 琀栀漀甀最栀琀 琀栀愀琀 䤀✀搀 搀漀 琀栀攀 猀愀洀攀ഊthe next time, only adding some extra flour so that it is a bit more than 2 ਀瀀愀爀琀猀 昀氀漀甀爀 琀漀 漀渀攀 瀀愀爀琀 戀甀琀琀攀爀⸀  匀栀攀攀猀栀℀  圀栀攀爀攀 愀爀攀 愀瀀瀀爀攀渀琀椀挀攀猀栀椀瀀猀 愀琀ഊHampton Court when you want them??!? ਀ഊAlys Katharine ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 吀栀甀Ⰰ ㄀　 䄀瀀爀 ㈀　　㠀 ㄀㄀㨀㄀㌀㨀㌀㘀 ⴀ　㐀　　ഊFrom: Johnna Holloway ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 䘀氀漀甀爀 刀攀挀漀洀洀攀渀搀愀琀椀漀渀㼀ഊTo: alysk at ix.netcom.com, Cooks within the SCA ਀ഊIvan's posted recipe from Mrs Marshall is ਀ഊRaised Pie Paste ਀吀愀欀攀 漀渀攀 瀀漀甀渀搀 漀昀 昀椀渀攀 昀氀漀甀爀 愀渀搀 爀甀戀 椀渀琀漀 椀琀 愀 焀甀愀爀琀攀爀 漀昀 愀 瀀漀甀渀搀 漀昀ഊbutter, a pinch of salt, one whole egg, then mix it with cold water into ਀愀 猀琀椀昀昀 瀀愀猀琀攀 愀渀搀 甀猀攀⸀ 䘀爀漀洀 ⨀䄀最渀攀猀 䈀⸀ 䴀愀爀猀栀愀氀氀⨀ ⼀䌀漀漀欀攀爀礀 䈀漀漀欀⼀ ⠀䰀漀渀搀漀渀㨀 ㄀㠀㠀　⤀ഊSo it's 4 flour to one part butter. That's the tested recipe that he ਀甀猀攀猀 昀漀爀 栀椀猀 爀愀椀猀攀搀 愀渀搀 洀漀氀搀攀搀 瀀椀攀猀Ⰰ 愀挀挀漀爀搀椀渀最 琀漀 琀栀攀 眀攀戀猀椀琀攀⸀ഊDon't know what recipe you are using but ਀琀栀攀 倀爀漀瀀攀爀 一攀眀攀 䈀漀漀欀攀 漀昀 䌀漀欀攀爀礀攀 昀爀漀洀 ㄀㔀㐀㔀 眀爀椀琀攀猀㨀ഊ ਀⼀⨀吀愀欀攀 昀礀渀攀 昀氀漀甀爀攀 愀渀搀 愀 挀甀爀猀攀礀 漀昀 昀愀礀爀攀 眀愀琀攀爀 愀渀搀 愀 搀礀猀挀栀攀 漀昀 猀眀攀琀攀ഊbutter and a lyttel saffron, and the yolckes of two egges and make it ਀琀栀礀渀渀攀 愀渀搀 愀猀 琀攀渀搀攀爀 愀猀 礀攀 洀愀礀攀⸀⨀⼀ഊ ਀䤀琀 搀漀攀猀渀✀琀 猀瀀攀挀椀昀礀 ㈀ 琀漀 漀渀攀 猀漀 洀愀礀戀攀 礀漀甀 洀椀最栀琀 椀渀挀爀攀愀猀攀 琀栀攀 昀氀漀甀爀 琀漀ഊbutter ratios. King Arthur has a nice whole wheat pastry flour. ਀ഊJohnna ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 吀栀甀Ⰰ ㄀ 䴀愀礀 ㈀　　㠀 ㄀㈀㨀㌀㐀㨀㔀㄀ ⴀ　㐀　　ഊFrom: "Barbara Benson" ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 䌀漀昀昀椀渀 䌀漀渀猀琀爀甀挀琀椀漀渀ഊTo: "Cooks List" ਀ഊI know that I have been pestering the list a goodly bit in the past ਀挀漀甀瀀氀攀 漀昀 眀攀攀欀猀 ⴀ 琀栀椀猀 昀攀愀猀琀 椀猀 搀爀椀瘀椀渀最 洀攀 渀甀琀猀℀ 䤀 搀漀渀✀琀 欀渀漀眀 眀栀礀 琀栀椀猀ഊone is proving to be so challenging. ਀ഊMy newest obstacle is coffin construction. I want to redact this ਀爀攀挀椀瀀攀 琀栀椀猀 眀攀攀欀攀渀搀㨀ഊ ਀䄀渀漀渀 吀甀猀挀愀渀 吀爀愀渀猀氀愀琀攀搀 戀礀 嘀椀琀琀漀爀椀愀ഊA cup of chicken or other fowl. ਀嬀㄀㈀㔀崀 䌀甀琀 挀栀椀挀欀攀渀猀 漀爀 昀漀眀氀 椀渀琀漀 瀀椀攀挀攀猀㬀 搀椀氀甀琀攀 昀氀漀甀爀 眀椀琀栀 栀漀琀 眀愀琀攀爀Ⰰഊand make it very stiff: then make the shape of a cup from said dough ਀愀渀搀 瀀甀琀 椀渀 椀琀 琀栀攀 愀昀漀爀攀洀攀渀琀椀漀渀攀搀 挀栀椀挀欀攀渀猀 眀椀琀栀 眀栀漀氀攀 最爀攀攀渀 最爀愀瀀攀猀Ⰰഊsaffron and spices, and a bit of cold water, and close it on top with ਀搀漀甀最栀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 瀀甀琀 椀琀 椀渀 琀栀攀 漀瘀攀渀 漀爀 爀愀琀栀攀爀 漀渀 琀漀瀀 漀昀 瀀愀渀猀㬀 愀渀搀 漀渀 琀栀攀 琀漀瀀ഊof the cup put a big piece of lard. ਀ഊAnd I wanted to take advantage of the experience of anyone on this ਀氀椀猀琀 眀栀漀 栀愀猀 愀琀琀攀洀瀀琀攀搀 挀漀昀昀椀渀猀 戀攀昀漀爀攀⸀ 圀栀愀琀 昀漀爀洀甀氀愀 搀椀搀 礀漀甀 甀猀攀 昀漀爀ഊthe coffin dough (I say formula because recipe implies that someone ਀眀椀氀氀 攀愀琀 椀琀⤀㼀 䄀渀礀 琀椀瀀猀 漀渀 爀愀椀猀椀渀最 琀栀攀 搀甀爀渀 琀栀椀渀最猀㼀 倀椀琀昀愀氀氀猀㼀 䄀氀猀漀Ⰰ 漀渀攀ഊof the major tools I have on the site is a convection oven - do you ਀琀栀椀渀欀 琀栀愀琀 猀椀渀挀攀 琀栀攀 挀漀昀昀椀渀 椀猀 猀攀愀氀攀搀 椀琀 眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 昀椀渀攀 椀渀 琀栀攀爀攀 漀爀 挀愀渀ഊanyone foresee problems with a convection oven. ਀ഊFrom the recipe it seems that the crust is flour + water. Any thoughts ਀漀渀 瀀爀漀瀀漀爀琀椀漀渀猀㼀ഊ-- ਀匀攀爀攀渀愀 搀愀 刀椀瘀愀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Thu, 01 May 2008 13:11:34 -0400 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 䨀漀栀渀渀愀 䠀漀氀氀漀眀愀礀 㰀樀漀栀渀渀愀攀 愀琀 洀愀挀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffin Construction ਀吀漀㨀 䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀䈀愀爀戀愀爀愀 䈀攀渀猀漀渀 眀爀漀琀攀㨀ഊ> From the recipe it seems that the crust is flour + water. Any thoughts ਀㸀 漀渀 瀀爀漀瀀漀爀琀椀漀渀猀㼀 䤀 氀漀漀欀 昀漀爀眀愀爀搀 琀漀 礀漀甀爀 爀攀瀀氀椀攀猀⸀ഊ> Grazie, Serena da Riva ਀ഊI still recommend what I did in January ਀ഊ/>/ If one uses a sturdy pastry made with lard and enough flour, you can raise ਀⼀㸀⼀ 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 挀愀猀攀 琀栀愀琀 椀猀 猀琀爀漀渀最 攀渀漀甀最栀 琀漀 猀甀爀瘀椀瘀攀 眀椀琀栀漀甀琀 琀栀攀 渀攀攀搀 漀昀 愀 瀀愀渀⸀ഊ/>/ (This is pastry as container.) ਀⼀㸀⼀ഊ/>/ Take a look at the Tudor Cooks Blog-- there's a video there plus pictures ਀⼀㸀⼀ 栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀琀甀搀漀爀挀漀漀欀⸀戀氀漀最猀瀀漀琀⸀挀漀洀⼀㈀　　㜀⼀㄀㈀⼀最攀琀ⴀ戀愀挀欀ⴀ椀渀ⴀ琀栀愀琀ⴀ欀椀琀挀栀攀渀⸀栀琀洀氀ഊ/>/ ਀⼀㸀⼀ 䄀氀猀漀 礀漀甀 洀椀最栀琀 爀甀渀 琀栀爀漀甀最栀 䤀瘀愀渀 䐀愀礀✀猀 瀀栀漀琀漀猀 愀渀搀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀猀 昀漀爀 栀椀猀 瘀愀爀椀漀甀猀ഊ/>/ pies and pastries. ਀⼀㸀⼀ 栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀眀眀眀⸀栀椀猀琀漀爀椀挀昀漀漀搀⸀挀漀洀⼀倀椀攀─㈀　爀攀挀椀瀀攀⸀栀琀洀ഊ/>/ ਀⼀㸀⼀ 䠀攀 栀愀猀 氀椀猀琀攀搀 愀 渀攀眀 挀漀甀爀猀攀 椀渀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 愀渀搀 瀀椀攀 洀愀欀椀渀最⸀ഊ/>/ http://www.historicfood.com/Pie%20Making%20Course.htm ਀⼀㸀⼀ഊ/>/ Johnnae ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 吀栀甀Ⰰ ㄀ 䴀愀礀 ㈀　　㠀 ㄀㔀㨀㌀㠀㨀　㜀 ⴀ　㐀　　ഊFrom: "Elise Fleming" ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 䌀漀昀昀椀渀 䌀漀渀猀琀爀甀挀琀椀漀渀 ⠀倀愀猀琀爀礀℀⤀ഊTo: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" ਀ഊGreetings! Regarding raising a flour and water coffyn, you might ਀眀愀渀琀 琀漀 氀漀漀欀 愀琀 琀栀攀 ∀洀漀氀搀猀∀ 愀琀 ഊ ਀栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀猀挀愀⸀㐀琀栀⸀挀漀洀⼀瀀栀漀琀漀猀⼀攀瘀攀渀琀猀⼀㈀　　㘀⼀愀氀礀猀ⴀ攀渀最氀愀渀搀㼀瀀愀最攀㴀㤀 ഊ ਀愀渀搀 猀挀爀漀氀氀 搀漀眀渀 琀漀 ∀愀氀礀猀㈀　　㘀ⴀ㌀㠀㜀∀⸀  吀栀攀爀攀 愀爀攀 琀眀漀  ഊwooden, cylindrical molds that Ivan Day uses for raising pies whose ਀挀爀甀猀琀猀 愀爀攀渀✀琀 琀漀 戀攀 攀愀琀攀渀⸀  䤀 最漀琀 琀漀 琀栀椀渀欀椀渀最 琀栀愀琀 椀昀 礀漀甀 眀愀渀琀攀搀 琀漀  ഊmake one of these dough "coffyns", you could mold your dough over a ਀挀漀昀昀攀攀 琀椀渀 漀爀 猀椀洀椀氀椀愀爀ⴀ猀椀稀攀搀 椀琀攀洀⸀  ഊ ਀䨀漀栀渀渀愀攀 愀渀搀 䤀Ⰰ 眀椀琀栀 琀眀漀 漀琀栀攀爀  ഊwomen, attended one of Ivan's classes where we made up the flour and ਀眀愀琀攀爀 搀漀甀最栀 愀渀搀 瀀爀攀猀猀攀搀 琀栀攀 搀漀甀最栀 漀瘀攀爀 琀栀攀 洀漀氀搀猀⸀  䨀漀栀渀渀愀攀Ⰰ 搀漀 礀漀甀  ഊrecall the exact procedure? Seems to me we put the mold in the ਀挀攀渀琀攀爀 漀昀 愀 洀愀猀猀 漀昀 搀漀甀最栀 愀渀搀 琀栀攀渀Ⰰ 眀椀琀栀 漀甀爀 栀愀渀搀猀Ⰰ 瀀甀猀栀攀搀 琀栀攀 搀漀甀最栀  ഊupwards to the top of the mold. I think we rolled out the "lid", ਀眀攀琀琀攀搀 椀琀 眀椀琀栀 眀愀琀攀爀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 琀栀攀渀 猀攀愀氀攀搀 椀琀 琀漀 琀栀攀 漀甀琀攀爀 瀀愀爀琀 漀昀 琀栀攀  ഊdough coffyn after the contents had been added. (We didn't have time ਀昀漀爀 爀攀愀氀 昀漀漀搀 椀渀 琀栀攀 挀漀昀昀礀渀 猀漀 䤀 猀甀最最攀猀琀攀搀 甀猀椀渀最 愀 眀愀搀搀攀搀 甀瀀 琀漀眀攀氀Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 眀攀 搀椀搀℀⤀  吀栀攀 挀漀昀昀礀渀 眀愀猀 洀漀搀攀爀愀琀攀氀礀 琀栀椀挀欀 猀椀渀挀攀 椀琀 搀椀搀渀✀琀 栀愀瘀攀 琀漀 戀攀 攀搀椀戀氀攀⸀ഊ ਀䄀氀礀猀 䬀⸀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Thu, 1 May 2008 17:06:06 -0400 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀䔀氀椀猀攀 䘀氀攀洀椀渀最∀ 㰀愀氀礀猀欀 愀琀 椀砀⸀渀攀琀挀漀洀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffin Construction (Pastry!) ਀吀漀㨀 ∀䈀愀爀戀愀爀愀 䈀攀渀猀漀渀∀ 㰀瘀漀砀攀椀最栀琀 愀琀 最洀愀椀氀⸀挀漀洀㸀Ⰰऀ∀䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀∀ഊ ਀ഊ> Hmmm, forming it on the outside of a mold had not occurred to me, an ਀㸀 椀渀琀攀爀攀猀琀椀渀最 椀搀攀愀⸀ 匀漀 搀漀 礀漀甀 昀漀爀洀 椀琀 漀渀 琀栀攀 洀漀氀搀 愀渀搀 琀栀攀渀 氀攀琀 椀琀 搀爀礀ഊ> for awhile before you remove the mold? ਀ഊI don't think we did. If you look at the photo I listed, the coffyn that ਀眀攀 洀愀搀攀 椀猀 椀渀 昀爀漀渀琀 漀昀 琀栀攀 琀眀漀 洀漀氀搀猀⸀  圀攀 搀椀搀渀✀琀 椀渀琀攀渀搀 琀漀 戀愀欀攀 椀琀Ⰰ 戀甀琀ഊfrom other experience, I would recommend sliding the empty coffyn on your ਀戀愀欀椀渀最 猀栀攀攀琀 戀攀昀漀爀攀 昀椀氀氀椀渀最 椀琀⸀  吀栀攀 昀椀氀氀椀渀最 眀漀甀氀搀 洀愀欀攀 椀琀 洀甀挀栀  ഊheavier and it would be harder to move to the baking sheet. ਀ഊ> I had been assuming that this would not be a edible container from the ਀㸀 最攀琀 最漀⸀ 吀栀愀琀 椀猀 眀栀攀爀攀 洀礀 栀攀愀搀 椀猀 愀琀⸀ 䤀 氀椀欀攀 琀栀攀 椀搀攀愀 漀昀 猀瀀爀椀渀最 昀漀爀洀ഊ> pans, but they are pretty darn expensive and I don't know if I can ਀㸀 猀眀椀渀最 攀渀漀甀最栀 昀漀爀 愀 昀甀氀氀 昀攀愀猀琀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀攀 愀搀瘀愀渀琀愀最攀 漀昀 洀愀欀椀渀最 愀渀 椀渀攀搀椀戀氀攀 挀漀渀琀愀椀渀攀爀 椀猀 琀栀愀琀 礀漀甀 搀漀渀✀琀 渀攀攀搀 愀渀礀ഊbaking pans. And, the recipe you cited certainly should be an inedible ਀瀀愀猀琀攀 ⴀ 樀甀猀琀 昀氀漀甀爀 愀渀搀 眀愀琀攀爀⸀ഊ ਀䄀氀礀猀Ⰰ 最攀琀琀椀渀最 栀甀渀最爀礀 渀漀眀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Thu, 01 May 2008 20:17:51 -0400 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 䨀漀栀渀渀愀 䠀漀氀氀漀眀愀礀 㰀樀漀栀渀渀愀攀 愀琀 洀愀挀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffin Construction (Pastry!) ਀吀漀㨀 愀氀礀猀欀 愀琀 椀砀⸀渀攀琀挀漀洀⸀挀漀洀Ⰰ 䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀ഊ ਀ഊIt's put in the middle of a mass of dough and raised on the outside. ਀䤀琀✀猀 琀栀攀 眀愀礀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀礀 洀愀欀攀 琀栀攀 爀愀椀猀攀搀 瀀漀爀欀 瀀椀攀猀 氀椀欀攀 琀栀漀猀攀 洀愀搀攀 椀渀 䴀攀氀琀漀渀ഊMowbray. ਀瀀椀挀琀甀爀攀 栀攀爀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 眀漀漀搀攀渀 洀漀氀搀ⴀⴀ 栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀眀眀眀⸀瀀漀爀欀瀀椀攀⸀挀漀⸀甀欀⼀ ഊourheritage.asp ਀䤀昀 礀漀甀 戀爀漀眀猀攀 搀漀眀渀 琀栀攀 瀀愀最攀ⴀⴀ 礀漀甀✀氀氀 挀漀洀攀 琀漀 搀爀愀眀椀渀最猀 漀昀 栀漀眀 琀栀攀礀 愀爀攀 洀愀搀攀 甀渀搀攀爀㨀ഊHow to make the authentic Melton Mowbray Pork Pie... ਀䐀漀攀猀 琀栀愀琀 栀攀氀瀀 攀砀瀀氀愀椀渀 椀琀㼀ഊ(Sutton Press actually put out a great book on the history of these pies ਀眀栀椀挀栀 䤀 戀漀甀最栀琀ഊyears ago. Lots of pictures. *The History of the Melton Mowbray Pork Pie ਀⠀吀栀攀 䈀攀猀琀 漀昀 䈀爀椀琀椀猀栀 椀渀 伀氀搀 倀栀漀琀漀最爀愀瀀栀猀⤀ ⠀倀愀瀀攀爀戀愀挀欀⤀⨀⤀ഊoh jeez used copies are $47 now.) ਀ഊThese hot water pastries with lard set up fairly fast, so if made thick ਀攀渀漀甀最栀 琀栀攀礀 猀琀愀渀搀 漀渀 琀栀攀椀爀 漀眀渀⸀ഊ ਀䨀漀栀渀渀愀攀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Fri, 2 May 2008 06:52:23 -0400 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 一愀渀挀礀 䬀椀攀氀 㰀渀愀渀挀礀开欀椀攀氀 愀琀 栀漀琀洀愀椀氀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffin Construction ਀吀漀㨀 䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀䤀✀洀 渀漀琀 挀攀爀琀愀椀渀 琀栀愀琀 昀愀琀 眀愀猀 琀栀愀琀 攀砀瀀攀渀猀椀瘀攀 椀渀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀㬀 琀栀攀 戀椀最 挀漀猀琀  ഊin making coffin (inedible) pastes seems to me to be in the flour and ਀琀栀攀 愀挀琀甀愀氀 琀椀洀攀 ☀ 猀欀椀氀氀 昀漀爀 瀀爀漀搀甀挀琀椀漀渀⸀  䴀爀猀⸀ 䈀攀攀琀漀渀Ⰰ 漀昀 嘀椀挀琀漀爀椀愀渀  ഊcookbook fame, provides ratios---1 lb of flour and 1 1/2 oz each of ਀戀甀琀琀攀爀 愀渀搀 氀愀爀搀ⴀⴀⴀ猀漀 昀漀爀 㔀 氀戀猀 漀昀 昀氀漀甀爀 礀漀甀 漀渀氀礀 渀攀攀搀 漀渀攀 氀戀 漀昀 昀愀琀⸀   ഊThis kind of pastry is certainly not for everyday, though. ਀ഊNancy Kiel ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 䘀爀椀Ⰰ 㘀 䨀甀渀 ㈀　　㠀 ㄀㤀㨀㔀㈀㨀㌀㤀 ⴀ　㔀　　ഊFrom: "Terry Decker" ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 䌀漀昀昀礀渀 倀愀猀琀攀ഊTo: "Cooks within the SCA" ਀ഊIf I were trying to make a free-standing coffin, I would probably try two ਀爀攀挀椀瀀攀猀⸀  吀栀攀 昀椀爀猀琀 眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 昀氀漀甀爀 愀渀搀 眀愀琀攀爀 愀琀 ㌀㨀㄀ 戀礀 眀攀椀最栀琀Ⰰ 愀搀搀椀渀最 昀氀漀甀爀 ഊabout an ounce at a time until it reached the consistency I thought would ਀眀漀爀欀⸀  ㈀㨀㄀ 最椀瘀攀猀 愀 猀攀洀椀ⴀ氀椀焀甀椀搀 漀爀 猀攀洀椀ⴀ猀漀氀椀搀 猀琀愀爀琀攀爀 挀漀渀猀椀猀琀攀渀挀礀⸀  ㌀㨀㄀ 最椀瘀攀猀 ഊa soft dough. ਀ഊIf I were using a fat in the mix, I would start with a standard 3:2:1, ਀昀氀漀甀爀Ⰰ 昀愀琀 愀渀搀 氀椀焀甀椀搀Ⰰ 愀最愀椀渀 愀搀搀椀渀最 昀氀漀甀爀 愀渀 漀甀渀挀攀 愀琀 愀 琀椀洀攀⸀  唀猀椀渀最 猀椀洀瀀氀礀 ഊflour and fat, 3:2. ਀ഊUnless it is in very large quantity, salt is immaterial. Large quantities ਀漀昀 猀愀氀琀 瀀爀漀搀甀挀攀 愀 瘀愀爀椀愀渀琀 漀昀 瀀甀琀琀礀Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 挀愀渀 戀攀 瀀爀攀瀀愀爀攀搀 戀礀 昀攀攀氀⸀  吀栀椀猀 椀猀 ഊan experiment I would not want to repeat outside of Kindergarten. ਀ഊEggs are both liquid and fat. I would estimate a large egg as 1 ounce of ਀昀愀琀 愀渀搀 琀眀漀 琀漀 琀栀爀攀攀 漀甀渀挀攀猀 漀昀 氀椀焀甀椀搀⸀ഊ ਀䈀攀愀爀ഊ ਀㰀㰀㰀 圀攀✀瘀攀 栀愀搀 猀漀洀攀 氀椀瘀攀氀礀 挀漀渀瘀攀爀猀愀琀椀漀渀猀 愀戀漀甀琀 琀栀攀 搀漀甀最栀 渀攀攀搀攀搀 琀漀 洀愀欀攀 愀渀 ഊinedible, free-standing coffyn in the past few months. ਀ഊPeople have mentioned ingredients - flour - lard and/or water - salt - ਀猀漀洀攀琀椀洀攀猀 攀最最猀⸀ 䈀甀琀 椀 搀漀渀✀琀 爀攀挀愀氀氀 猀攀攀椀渀最 漀渀攀 眀椀琀栀 猀漀洀攀 椀搀攀愀 漀昀 ഊproportions. I know that flours vary in the amount of water they'll ਀愀戀猀漀爀戀Ⰰ 猀漀 椀✀洀 渀漀琀 愀猀欀椀渀最 昀漀爀 愀渀 攀砀愀挀琀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀⸀ 䈀甀琀 椀 眀愀猀 栀漀瀀椀渀最 琀漀 最攀琀 ഊsomething with more details than just a list of potential ingredients. ਀ⴀⴀ ഊUrtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) ਀琀栀攀 瀀攀爀猀漀渀愀 昀漀爀洀攀爀氀礀 欀渀漀眀渀 愀猀 䄀渀愀栀椀琀愀 㸀㸀㸀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:21:18 -0600 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀吀攀爀爀礀 䐀攀挀欀攀爀∀ 㰀琀⸀搀⸀搀攀挀欀攀爀 愀琀 愀琀琀⸀渀攀琀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Best bulk pie crust recipe? ਀吀漀㨀 ∀䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀∀ 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀㰀㰀㰀 䤀 愀洀 攀洀戀愀爀爀愀猀猀攀搀 琀漀 愀搀洀椀琀 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 渀攀瘀攀爀 洀愀搀攀 瀀椀攀 挀爀甀猀琀猀 昀爀漀洀 猀挀爀愀琀挀栀 昀漀爀 愀 ഊfeast. >>> ਀ഊHaving done it, I can assure you it is no great virtue and a lot of work. ਀吀漀 猀愀瘀攀 琀椀洀攀 䤀 最攀渀攀爀愀氀氀礀 甀猀攀 瀀甀爀挀栀愀猀攀搀 瀀椀攀 猀栀攀氀氀猀⸀  䤀 瀀甀爀挀栀愀猀攀 漀渀攀猀 洀愀搀攀 ഊwith vegetable shortening rather than lard as there are a number of ਀瘀攀最攀琀愀爀椀愀渀猀 爀甀渀渀椀渀最 愀爀漀甀渀搀 愀渀搀 愀琀 氀攀愀猀琀 漀渀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 瀀攀漀瀀氀攀 䤀 昀攀攀搀 漀渀 漀挀挀愀猀椀漀渀 ഊhas an allergy to pork and pork products. ਀ഊ<<< I am making chard and ricotta pies for a feast coming up, and I'd like to ਀搀漀 挀漀瘀攀爀攀搀 挀漀昀昀椀渀ⴀ猀琀礀氀攀 瀀椀攀猀 戀甀琀 䤀✀洀 愀昀爀愀椀搀 愀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀 栀愀爀搀 挀爀甀猀琀 眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 ഊseen as just "bad pie crust" around here. ਀ഊI would prefer not to use vegetable shortening (yuck), but butter would be ਀琀漀漀 攀砀瀀攀渀猀椀瘀攀 愀渀搀 氀愀爀搀 洀攀愀渀猀 攀瘀攀渀 昀攀眀攀爀 瘀攀最攀琀愀爀椀愀渀 搀椀猀栀攀猀⸀ 伀椀氀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 ഊdoesn't have enough stability for a coffin-style pie. ਀ഊWhat is your favorite bulk pastry recipe? Have you made hard pastry cases ਀昀漀爀 昀攀愀猀琀猀㼀 䠀漀眀 眀攀爀攀 琀栀攀礀 爀攀挀攀椀瘀攀搀㼀ഊ ਀䴀愀搀栀愀瘀椀 㸀㸀㸀ഊ ਀夀漀甀 洀椀最栀琀 樀甀猀琀 氀攀琀 瀀攀漀瀀氀攀 欀渀漀眀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀 挀漀昀昀椀渀 猀栀攀氀氀 椀猀 渀漀琀 洀攀愀渀琀 琀漀 戀攀 ഊeaten. ਀ഊOr you might try the Elizabethean pie shell recipe that follows. I would ਀爀攀挀漀洀洀攀渀搀 戀氀椀渀搀 戀愀欀椀渀最 琀栀攀 瀀椀攀 猀栀攀氀氀 愀渀搀 挀漀漀欀椀渀最 琀栀攀 昀椀氀氀椀渀最 猀攀瀀攀爀愀琀攀氀礀⸀ ഊI've used it successfully for sweet spinach torts/ ਀ഊBear ਀ഊElizabethan Pie Shell ਀ഊAnother Way. Then make your paste with butter, fair water, ਀愀渀搀 琀栀攀 礀漀氀欀攀猀 漀昀 琀眀漀 漀爀 琀栀爀攀攀 䔀最猀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 猀漀 猀漀漀渀攀 愀猀 礀攀 栀愀瘀攀ഊdriven your paste, cast on a little sugar, and rosewater, and ਀栀愀爀搀攀渀 礀漀甀爀 瀀愀猀琀攀 愀昀漀爀攀 椀渀 琀栀攀 漀瘀攀渀⸀ 吀栀攀渀 琀愀欀攀 椀琀 漀甀琀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 昀椀氀氀ഊit, and set it in againe. ਀ഊThe Good Huswifes Handmaid, 1588 ਀ഊ1/2 cup butter ਀㄀ ㄀⼀㈀ 挀甀瀀 昀氀漀甀爀 ⠀愀瀀瀀爀漀砀⸀⤀ഊ2 egg yolks ਀㄀⼀㌀ 挀甀瀀 眀愀琀攀爀ഊsugar ਀ഊIn a bowl, cut butter into 1 cup of flour, until it crumbs. ਀䄀搀搀 攀最最 礀漀氀欀猀 愀渀搀 挀甀琀 椀渀琀漀 洀椀砀琀甀爀攀⸀ 䄀搀搀 愀搀搀椀琀椀漀渀愀氀 昀氀漀甀爀 愀ഊTablespoon at a time until the moisture is absorbed into the ਀挀爀甀洀戀猀⸀ഊ ਀䄀搀搀 琀栀攀 眀愀琀攀爀 愀渀搀 挀甀琀 椀渀琀漀 洀椀砀琀甀爀攀⸀ 䄀搀搀 愀搀搀椀琀椀漀渀愀氀 昀氀漀甀爀 愀ഊTablespoon at a time, as needed, until the moisture is absorbed ਀椀渀琀漀 琀栀攀 挀爀甀洀戀猀⸀ഊ ਀倀甀猀栀 琀栀攀 挀爀甀洀戀猀 椀渀琀漀 愀 戀愀氀氀Ⰰ 眀漀爀欀椀渀最 琀栀攀 搀漀甀最栀 最攀渀琀氀礀 昀漀爀 愀 昀攀眀ഊseconds to smooth it. ਀ഊLet the dough rest for 15 to 30 minutes. ਀ഊRoll out the crusts on a floured surface and transfer to pie pans. ਀吀栀攀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀 洀愀欀攀猀 琀眀漀 㠀 漀爀 㤀 椀渀挀栀 瀀椀攀 猀栀攀氀氀猀⸀ഊ ਀倀爀椀挀欀 琀栀攀 瀀椀攀 猀栀攀氀氀猀 琀漀 氀攀琀 愀椀爀 瘀攀渀琀 昀爀漀洀 戀攀琀眀攀攀渀 琀栀攀 猀栀攀氀氀 愀渀搀ഊthe pan. ਀ഊSprinkle sugar on the shell before baking. I used about a scant ਀㄀⼀㐀 琀攀愀猀瀀漀漀渀 最爀愀渀甀氀愀琀攀搀 眀栀椀琀攀⸀ഊ ਀䤀昀 琀栀攀 猀栀攀氀氀 椀猀 琀漀 戀攀 昀椀氀氀攀搀 愀昀琀攀爀 戀愀欀椀渀最Ⰰ 戀愀欀攀 琀栀攀 猀栀攀氀氀 愀琀 ㌀㈀㔀ഊdegrees F for about 35 minutes or until very light brown. ਀䤀昀 琀栀攀 昀椀氀氀椀渀最 渀攀攀搀猀 琀漀 戀攀 戀愀欀攀搀 椀渀 琀栀攀 猀栀攀氀氀Ⰰ 戀愀欀攀 琀栀攀 猀栀攀氀氀 愀琀 ㌀㈀㔀ഊdegrees F for about 10 minutes, remove, fill and continue ਀戀愀欀椀渀最 愀猀 瀀攀爀 琀栀攀 昀椀氀氀椀渀最 爀攀挀椀瀀攀⸀ഊ ਀一漀琀攀猀㨀 吀栀椀猀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀 洀愀欀攀猀 瘀攀爀礀 氀椀最栀琀Ⰰ 挀爀椀猀瀀 瀀椀攀 猀栀攀氀氀猀⸀ 䤀昀 琀栀攀ഊdough is worked minimally, the result is flaky and very similar ਀琀漀 洀漀搀攀爀渀 瀀椀攀 猀栀攀氀氀猀⸀ 吀栀攀 洀漀爀攀 琀栀攀 搀漀甀最栀 椀猀 眀漀爀欀攀搀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 洀漀爀攀ഊthe pie shell resembles a crisp or cracker. ਀ഊBy taste, salt is noticeably missing from the crust, but the sugar ਀洀漀搀椀昀椀攀猀 琀栀攀 琀愀猀琀攀⸀ 䄀 昀椀渀攀 最爀漀甀渀搀 眀栀椀琀攀 猀甀最愀爀 漀爀 愀 戀爀漀眀渀 猀甀最愀爀ഊmight present interesting differences. ਀ഊAs written, this recipe appears to be for a dessert shell, but it ਀洀椀最栀琀 愀氀猀漀 爀攀瀀爀攀猀攀渀琀 愀渀 椀渀琀攀爀攀猀琀椀渀最 挀漀渀琀爀愀猀琀 昀漀爀 愀 猀愀瘀漀爀礀 昀椀氀氀椀渀最⸀ ഊ ਀ഊDate: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:04:31 -0500 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 䜀爀攀琀挀栀攀渀 䈀攀挀欀 㰀最爀洀 愀琀 愀渀搀爀攀眀⸀挀洀甀⸀攀搀甀㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Best bulk pie crust recipe? ਀吀漀㨀 䌀漀漀欀猀 眀椀琀栀椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 㰀猀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊ ਀䤀✀瘀攀 甀猀攀搀 琀栀椀猀 猀栀攀氀氀 眀椀琀栀 猀愀瘀漀爀礀 昀椀氀氀椀渀最 ⠀栀攀爀戀 琀愀爀琀猀⤀ ⴀⴀ 椀琀✀猀 焀甀椀琀攀 渀椀挀攀ഊand fairly sturdy. I have a friend who took the leftover dough home and ਀洀愀搀攀 攀洀瀀愀渀愀搀愀猀 ⠀栀攀爀 洀漀琀栀攀爀 猀琀椀氀氀 爀攀昀攀爀猀 琀漀 洀攀 愀猀 ∀琀栀攀 最椀爀氀 眀栀漀 洀愀搀攀 琀栀攀ഊgood dough") ਀ഊtoodles, margaret ਀ഊ<<< Elizabethan Pie Shell ਀ഊAnother Way. Then make your paste with butter, fair water, ਀愀渀搀 琀栀攀 礀漀氀欀攀猀 漀昀 琀眀漀 漀爀 琀栀爀攀攀 䔀最猀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 猀漀 猀漀漀渀攀 愀猀 礀攀 栀愀瘀攀ഊdriven your paste, cast on a little sugar, and rosewater, and ਀栀愀爀搀攀渀 礀漀甀爀 瀀愀猀琀攀 愀昀漀爀攀 椀渀 琀栀攀 漀瘀攀渀⸀ 吀栀攀渀 琀愀欀攀 椀琀 漀甀琀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 昀椀氀氀ഊit, and set it in againe. ਀ഊThe Good Huswifes Handmaid, 1588 ਀ഊ1/2 cup butter ਀㄀ ㄀⼀㈀ 挀甀瀀 昀氀漀甀爀 ⠀愀瀀瀀爀漀砀⸀⤀ഊ2 egg yolks ਀㄀⼀㌀ 挀甀瀀 眀愀琀攀爀ഊsugar >>> ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 䘀爀椀Ⰰ ㈀㌀ 䨀愀渀 ㈀　　㤀 　㜀㨀㐀㌀㨀㔀㤀 ⬀㄀㌀　　ഊFrom: Antonia Calvo ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀匀挀愀ⴀ挀漀漀欀猀崀 䈀攀猀琀 戀甀氀欀 瀀椀攀 挀爀甀猀琀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀㼀ഊTo: Cooks within the SCA ਀ഊjimandandi at cox.net wrote: ਀㰀㰀㰀 䤀 愀洀 攀洀戀愀爀爀愀猀猀攀搀 琀漀 愀搀洀椀琀 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 渀攀瘀攀爀 洀愀搀攀 瀀椀攀 挀爀甀猀琀猀 昀爀漀洀 猀挀爀愀琀挀栀 昀漀爀 愀 昀攀愀猀琀⸀ 㸀㸀㸀ഊ ਀吀栀愀琀✀猀 琀攀渀 氀愀猀栀攀猀 眀椀琀栀 愀 最氀甀琀攀渀ⴀ昀爀攀攀 渀漀漀搀氀攀 昀漀爀 礀漀甀℀ഊ ਀㰀㰀㰀 䤀 眀漀甀氀搀 瀀爀攀昀攀爀 渀漀琀 琀漀 甀猀攀 瘀攀最攀琀愀戀氀攀 猀栀漀爀琀攀渀椀渀最 ⠀礀甀挀欀⤀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 戀甀琀琀攀爀 眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 琀漀漀 攀砀瀀攀渀猀椀瘀攀 愀渀搀 氀愀爀搀 洀攀愀渀猀 攀瘀攀渀 昀攀眀攀爀 瘀攀最攀琀愀爀椀愀渀 搀椀猀栀攀猀⸀ 伀椀氀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 搀漀攀猀渀✀琀 栀愀瘀攀 攀渀漀甀最栀 猀琀愀戀椀氀椀琀礀 昀漀爀 愀 挀漀昀昀椀渀ⴀ猀琀礀氀攀 瀀椀攀⸀ഊ ਀圀栀愀琀 椀猀 礀漀甀爀 昀愀瘀漀爀椀琀攀 戀甀氀欀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 爀攀挀椀瀀攀㼀 䠀愀瘀攀 礀漀甀 洀愀搀攀 栀愀爀搀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀 挀愀猀攀猀 昀漀爀 昀攀愀猀琀猀㼀 䠀漀眀 眀攀爀攀 琀栀攀礀 爀攀挀攀椀瘀攀搀㼀 㸀㸀㸀ഊ ਀䤀 甀猀甀愀氀氀礀 洀愀欀攀 栀漀琀 眀愀琀攀爀 瀀愀猀琀爀礀⸀  䤀琀✀猀 渀漀琀 焀甀椀琀攀 愀猀 琀攀渀搀攀爀 愀猀 挀漀氀搀ⴀ眀愀琀攀爀 ഊpastry, but if you really want free-standing crusts, you need the ਀猀琀椀昀昀攀猀琀Ⰰ 氀攀愀猀琀ⴀ猀栀漀爀琀 瘀攀爀猀椀漀渀⸀ 䬀攀攀瀀 椀渀 洀椀渀搀 琀栀愀琀 愀 挀漀昀昀椀渀 椀猀渀✀琀 爀攀愀氀氀礀 ഊmeant to be eaten. ਀ഊAnyway, recipes: ਀ഊHot Water Crust ਀ഊ500g flour ਀㄀㔀　最 戀甀琀琀攀爀Ⰰ 猀栀漀爀琀攀渀椀渀最Ⰰ 氀愀爀搀Ⰰ 漀爀 漀琀栀攀爀 栀愀爀搀 昀愀琀Ⰰ 漀爀 愀 挀漀洀戀椀渀愀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 ഊbutter and one other. ਀㈀　　洀氀 眀愀琀攀爀ഊpinch of salt ਀ഊPut the flour in bowl with the salt. In a small pot, heat the water and ਀昀愀琀 ✀琀椀氀 椀琀 樀甀猀琀 戀漀椀氀猀 愀渀搀 愀氀氀 琀栀攀 昀愀琀 椀猀 洀攀氀琀攀搀⸀  倀漀甀爀 琀栀攀 栀漀琀 氀椀焀甀椀搀 ഊinto the flour and mix together. Knead a little 'til you have a smooth ਀戀愀氀氀⸀ ഊ ਀䘀漀爀 愀 爀椀挀栀攀爀 挀爀甀猀琀Ⰰ 甀猀攀 琀栀攀 昀漀氀氀漀眀椀渀最 愀洀漀甀渀琀猀ഊ300g fat ਀㄀㔀　洀氀 眀愀琀攀爀ഊ ਀䘀漀爀 愀 猀琀椀昀昀 瘀攀爀猀椀漀渀 琀栀愀琀 眀椀氀氀 洀愀欀攀 猀琀愀渀搀椀渀最 挀爀甀猀琀猀ഊ90g fat ਀㌀　　 洀氀 眀愀琀攀爀ഊ ਀吀栀攀 昀椀爀猀琀 琀眀漀 瘀攀爀猀椀漀渀猀 愀爀攀 焀甀椀琀攀 攀搀椀戀氀攀Ⰰ 愀氀琀栀漀甀最栀 渀漀琀 愀猀 琀攀渀搀攀爀 愀猀 ഊcold-water pastry. The final version is a bit marginal for ਀瀀愀氀愀琀愀戀椀氀椀琀礀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 椀猀 瘀攀爀礀 猀琀甀爀搀礀⸀  䤀 搀漀渀✀琀 搀漀 栀愀爀搀 挀愀猀攀猀 瘀攀爀礀 漀昀琀攀渀ⴀⴀ ഊit's a bit tricky, and I'm not very good at it, so for the sake of ਀攀砀瀀攀搀椀攀渀挀礀Ⰰ 䤀 甀猀甀愀氀氀礀 甀猀攀 瀀椀攀 瀀愀渀猀⸀ഊ-- ਀䄀渀琀漀渀椀愀 搀椀 䈀攀渀攀搀攀琀琀漀 䌀愀氀瘀漀 ഊ ਀㰀琀栀攀 攀渀搀㸀ഊEdited by Mark S. Harris dough-contain-msg Page 37 of 37 ਀ഊ