sugar-paste-msg - 01/9/08 Making sugar paste sotelties. molds. gum tragacanth sources. sugar paste sources. NOTE: See also these files: Sugar-Paste-art, sugar-msg, candy-msg, desserts-msg, Sugarplums-art, Roses-a-Sugar-art, Bakng-w-Sugar-art, Sugarplat-Adv-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: fp458 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Elise A. Fleming) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Plate that you can eat Date: 27 Nov 1994 14:28:50 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA) The plate in the original query referred to "sugar plate" or "sugar paste", mundanely called "gum paste." It is a dough-like substance similar to edible play dough made of finely ground sugar, a liquid (such as rosewater), gum tragacanth ("gum dragon") and in period, egg white. The gum and egg white served to strengthen the mixture which was kneaded until the proper consistency. It's a rather forgiving material. If you make it too moist, you can add more ground (powdered) sugar. If too dry, add more liquid. Virtually any item can be shaped from it. Period sources (Murrell in 1598 or thereabouts) say that you can use molds, "tin cutters", knives, or your hands. About two years ago my article on sugar paste was printed in Tournaments Illuminated. If you want more specific information, let me know. For novices, using modern gum paste is the easiest way to practice with this medium. Gum paste can be found in most cake decorating supply stores. The plates and goblets made of this material dry hard enough to hold liquid and don't dissolve. However, Murrell warns about keeping them away from heat. After the banquet (meaning the dessert course) the Tudor and Elizabethan diners could toss their dishes and eat the pieces. The plates could also be colored and decorated. In Italy (if not in England) sugar paste formed part of large statues. It is fairly easy to roll out sections of paste and lay it over an armature so that one has, for example, a 10'tall statue covered with sugar! I'd love to work with someone on a project like that. I'm not a sculptor but I sure can do flat work. Alys Katharine (donor of sugar paste items to Outlands and Middle Kingdom Royalty and to TFYC) From: fp458 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Elise A. Fleming) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Plate that you can eat Date: 27 Nov 1994 14:39:29 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA) I was the Pennsic instructor doing the class on subtleties. We have an informal newsletter for the "Interkingdom Guild of Con- fectioners" which also will tackle cooking questions, comments. I am the editor. Subscription fee is $10.00 for 5 issues and back issues are sent to "catch up" the subcriber to the current newsletter. For interested people, checks are to be made to the Guild and sent to Elise Fleming, 3950 Walter Rd., No. Olmsted, OH 44070-2111. Elise/Alys Katharine From: fp458 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Elise A. Fleming) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Plate that you can ea Date: 10 Dec 1994 10:02:03 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA) Gum tragacanth, cheapest source, is Penn Herb. Toll free number is 1-800-523-9971 (presumably for orders over $15). For orders under $15, for information, or if you're calling from the 215 area code it's 215-925-3336. Tragacanth gum is #630. It comes in powder form. One ounce is $2.35, much cheaper than the price from Sweet Celebrations in Minneapolis. Four ounces is $7.25 and one pound is $27.50. There is a shipping charge. Penn Herb sells all other kinds of herbs and herbal items. They say they are "Pennsylvania's Largest Medicinal Herb House." Elise/Alys Katharine From: Elise A. Fleming (12/18/94) To: markh at sphinx RE>Plate that you can ea Greetings, Stefan! Did I post you where to find commercial gum paste mix? If not, here it is. You can order it from Sweet Beginnings, 1-800-328-6722. They take major credit cards. They charge the actual shipping cost plus $1.00. The item is "gum paste mix" #73318. It is $3.00 per one-pound package. While I've read that gum paste dries transluscent (even transpa- rent) I've never found that correct. It is like a white clay that you can roll thickly or thinly. The thinner it is the more delicate but also the better it drapes. I haven't worked much with drapey things. I've worked with flat objects such as tiles and plates, as well as constructing boxes (one even contained a real baronial coronet). I've also made some flowers, a flower pot, and several goblets. If you want to get gum tragacanth, I'd suggest the four-ounce size. One ounce won't go far and you aren't sure if you want as much as the one-pound. Frankly, the only reason to use gum tragacanth paste is if you want to be thoroughly "in period" and need to document the work for a competition. Otherwise the modern stuff is a close approximation. I'd be glad to give you the rationale if you need it for competition. Once you practice with the pre-mixed stuff you might want to try mixing a modern variation with a powder, your own sugar, and glucose. All three pastes, tragacanth, pre-mixed, and mix-your- own feel a little different. Mix-your-own tends to be a little more beige. The period stuff is white. The pre-mixed is pretty white. Other things you can do with this are to make plain candies or wrap almonds in it. YOu can use molds to make walnuts with a trinket hidden inside. If you are a sculptor, you can make anything that you like with it. I'm talking another person through using gum paste via e-mail. Hers has been too sticky. It's a fairly forgiving medium. If it's too sticky, add more powdered sugar. If it's too dry, add more liquid. Oh, and you can add flavorings, too. Let me know how things go! Alys K./Elise From: Elise A. Fleming (12/21/94) To: markh at sphinx Greetings! You're right. It's Sweet Celebrations. I was going on (increas- ingly) faulty memory. I'll post you back this coming Chrismas weekend on specific period books for sugar paste. There are at least two that mention items to be made from it. None tell you how to work it. I found it helpful to get several from the local library (or county library loan) that gave me help on working with the paste itself. Making a flower in period is making a flower modernly. The gum paste doesn't "seep" around the trinket. It is a solid and if the paste is so wet that it "seeps" then you can't get it off your fingers! In general, I probably wouldn't _push_ the item into the paste. I'd use a hollow mold such as a walnut and when the halves dry, place the trinket into the space and glue the two halves together with egg white or "royal icing". As for coloring, that's worth several postings. I've begun (and nearly finished) a list of period colors used in foods, plus at least one period source that mentions it. Some of the colors (coloring agents) were toxic! You can color the walnut with a combination of ground cinnamon and nutmeg. This gets kneaded into the paste before the shell is made. You can also paint some objects. I've put "shells" onto almonds, colored the paste with cinnamon, and pricked "holes" into the shells just like an almond shell. Then I put the sugar almonds into a bowl with shelled real almonds. People kept asking me for the nutcracker! Molds are available from Sweet Celebrations and from other cake decorating supply stores. Ours doesn't carry the walnut shell but I got it from my apprentice who found it in a store in her city. You can make your own molds. At least one of the period cookbooks tells how, using plaster. Any modern material might work just as well I'll look up the books this weekend and post you a list! Alys From: Elise A. Fleming (12/26/94) To: Mark Harris RE>Confections Greetings! Tried to send mail yesterday but Freenet wouldn't find my file. I'm guessing the whole system was down. You mentioned books that told how warners and sotelties were made. To my knowledge there are none in period. There are certainly descriptions of sotelties that can be found in historical accounts. Was that what you were interested in? I have some listings of those. One that I recall off the top of my head (Whew! Wondered what was sitting up there! :) ) listed a crown that shone as if the jewels were enamel. I've always thought that the description made a good case for colored sugar, boiled and cooled to a glass. The boiled sugar syrup was done in Spain in the 13th c. and is in Forme of Curye (I believe that's the book) as "sugar plate". The existence of "sugar plate" as a boiled sugar syrup poured out into plate form is why I tend to call what I do "sugar _paste_." If you go rummaging through books on historical foods and check out subtleties, etc., you'll probably come across a number of examples. You're correct that many books do concentrate on icings. You'd want to check out "gum paste" or "marzipan." Sweet Celebrations carries a number of books, several from England, on the topic but I think the prices are high. Everyone charges a lot for these specialty books. (Bought one two months ago that I thought was around $8 and it turned out to be something like $28! And it was more like a pamphlet!) No, they don't do things like fake almonds and walnuts probably because a) they haven't thought of them, or b) they're simple and don't need directions. You need directions to learn how to cut and roll and shape flower petals. I doubt that you could squeeze sugar paste from a cake decorating tube. It would need to be more liquid that it is supposed to be. First, decorating tubes probably didn't exist within period. There is evidence that certain fried cakes were made by putting the batter into a pan with a hole and removing and replacing a finger to let the batter drip into the fat. I haven't seen any evidence for things like icing to be squeezed out that way. In fact, icing as we know it didn't exist within period. A sugar and liquid (rose water) icing was made and spread over the tops of some things such as marchpanes but at least in England it wasn't specified for cakes (which weren't like our modern cakes either). The icing (because it was to resemble "ice") was spread on with a feather and set into the oven to harden and shine. Several layers, I be- lieve, could be added. No, gum paste/sugar paste was a different medium. It is for modeling items to resemble real-life things. Now, I will suggest that you try working with the paste, trinkets, and molds the way you think it should be done. You can prove me wrong! Which is what I've done to other proclamations by other people. If you take a ball of sugar paste, push a trinket into the middle, and then push this into a shape or mold, I seriously doubt that you will be able to get the trinket out. When sugar paste hardens, it hardens rock hard. The thicker the paste, the harder it is to break. That's why one should roll it thinly. Second, if the paste were to get in around the edges of a trinket as it would if you pushed the trinket into a ball of paste, one (error) once you could break it open you'd then have to carefully soak the hardened paste from off the trinket where it would main- tain a death grip. Sugar paste will dry so hard that you can put liquid (cold, not hot) into a goblet and drink from it. We tried soaking a piece of hard paste and after an hour it still hadn't dissolved. If you want someone to use or play with the trinket, it should go into a hollow, dried item. (But, try it and prove me wrong!) Yes, you roll the paste into a thin sheet. How thin depends on what you find "workable". Press the small sheet into the mold, trim off the edges with a sharp knife and store all the scraps under a glass or in a plastic bag. You can knead all the scraps back together and re-use. You can use egg white or royal icing. Royal icing (recipes found in many cake decorating books) is made from powdered sugar and a liquid. Use water rather than cream if you're worried about spoilage. This is where experience helps. The resulting icing needs to be thick, but not too thick. It should be some- thing like Elmer's glue. If it's too thin, it will dribble down the side of your mold and you'd have to clean it off. A little would probably remain and spoil the color. Or, worse, you'd wipe off some of the surface of the sugar paste as it began to dissolve. (Sounds like I'm contradicting what I said above, but I'm not. Painting with liquid will dissolve the top layer of the sugar. Too much liquid and you have a mess on your hands. Too much fiddling trying to get the color just right and your brush has been gunked up with a sticky sugar/color mixture.) Back to joining the stuff. The "glue" should sit on top of the edge. When you press the two edges together some will probably ooze out. Take a knife and remove the "glue". Now, as far as egg whites. There certainly is a scare, isn't there? If it bothers you, get powdered egg whites. This is available from Sweet Celebrations and other cake decorating supply stores. You can mix up some of that without worry. In fact, I sometimes use that in making period sugar paste rather than a fresh egg white. Coloring: I've experimented with some period colors. Saffron makes a nice yellow. Saunders I had problems with. My appren- tice Rosamund tried using ground roses which gave a dusky pink. I use paste food colors. (Also available from Sweet Celebrations or any cake decorating store.) I take a plastic lid (such as a Cool Whip lid), sprinkle some drops of water on it. Then I take a small amount of the paste food color and stir it into a drop of water. Now, here's where it would be nicer if we were face-to-face. You can adjust the shade by using more color or more water. HOWEVER! The more water you use, the more you will dissolve away a small part of your item. You can't put on lots of colored water and let it sit there. It WILL dissolve part of your item and it may not dry well. You need to use just enough liquid to color the section and soak in, not stand on top as excess liquid. You might try using vodka instead of water. I haven't tried it by Rosamund says it works well and the vodka evaporates faster than water, she says. Prior to my painting colors onto the sugar piece I usually outline the picture/design with a non-toxic black felt marker. Crayola has some for kids, although now that my pieces aren't being eaten, I tend to use any medium tip black felt pen. My personal opinion is that the black outline sets the design out. The black line also gives a "buffer" so that you paint within the lines. If you're careful, any liquid will soak _to_ the line, not _past_ the line. This comes with experience and by making mistakes. YOu can cut/scrape away errors with an Exacto knife, for instance. You might have to let the color dry, however, or you could smear it an make a worse mess. Paste food colors are better to work with than liquid food colors. You can adjust the amount of liquid in the former. There also are powdered food colors. I've tried some but had little luck with them, although someone else swears they work better. They're also generally harder to find than paste colors. You certainly should be able to cast a cockroach. Has anyone in your area worked with the modeling compounds? Craft stores carry stuff to make molds with. I just haven't tried any. I was wondering if you cooked up spaghetti, laid out the cooked strands to a certain curve and cut to length, if that might make a realistic leg. Spaghetti can be painted. It dried (error) dries hard, and would be edible. Well, now! I've been typing for 47 minutes and haven't sent you the list of books. I'll see what I can squeeze in. (I get one hour per connection!) A clear recipe is in _The Second Part of the Good Hus-wives Jewell_, Thomas Dawson, 1597. John Murrell, 1617, _A Daily Exercise for Ladies and Gentlewomen_, gives lists of things that can be made with sugar paste. Other sources include: _Martha Washington's Booke of Cookery_, transcribed by Karen Hess, Columbia University Press, 1981. Recipes date from mid-1600s. An excellent book to have, anyhow, for learning to read Renaissance cookery terms and interpreting what to do. Gervase Markham, 1615, _The English Huswife_, ed. Michael Best, McGills-Queens Univ. Press, 1986. Robert May, _The Accomplisht Cook_, 1685 Sir Hugh Plat, 1609, _Delightes for Ladies_. Cariadoc's "Collection of Medieval and Renaissance Cookbooks" has this. The Lord Ruthuen, _The Ladies Cabinet_, 1655 (Falconwood Press did a reprint.) Hilary Spurling, _Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book_, 1609, Elisabeth Sifton Books, Viking, 1986 W.M., _A Queen's Delight_, 1671, Prospect Books reprint, 1984. Wilton cake decorating books almost always contain sections on gum paste, fondant, Mexican paste, pastillage. These are all similar mediums. I've got my five minute warning to get off the system. What else can I bombard you with??? Alys/Elise From: Elise A. Fleming (12/26/94) To: markh at sphinx sugar paste Greetings, again! I have some material that I'd like to see if I can upload to you (never having done this before by myself). So, here goes.A partial list of items in period books that were made with sugar paste. dishes, trenchers, snakes, snails, frogs, roses, cherries, strawberries, marigolds, shoes, slippers, keys, knives, gloves, letters, knots, "jumballs", apples, walnuts, cinnamon sticks, plates, dishes, cups, marbles, table furnishings, burrage flowers, pigeons, skulls and bones, capital letters, clasps and eyes, wax lights, cowslips, primroses, stock gilliflowers, rabbits, any bird or beast Methods of making sugar paste items (from period books) molds carved inwards double molds (for cherries, strawberries, etc. Twig is insert- ed for stalk) cut with tin instrument (cookie cutter, query I???) knife hand pincers tin, wood or stone molds (Murrell says that if you aren't skill- ed, you can use a tin mold) reeds (to wrap candy cinnamon sticks around) handle of a wooden spoon A period recipe: Thomas Dawson, _The Second Part of the Good Hus-wives Jewell_, 1597, entitled "To make a past of Suger, whereof a man may make al manner of fruits, and other fine things, with their forme, as Plates, Dishes, Cuppes and such like thinges, wherewith you may furnish a Table." "Take Gumme and dragant as much as you wil, and steep it in Rosewater til it be mollified, and for foure ounces of suger take of it the bigness of a beane, the iuyce of Lemon, a walnut shel ful, and a little of the white of an eg. But you must first take the gumme, and beat it so much with a pestell in a brasen morter, till it be come like water, then put to it the iuyce with the white of an egge, incorporating al these wel together, this done take four ounces of fine white suger wel beaten to powder, and cast it into the morter by a litle and a litle, until they be turned into the form of paste, then take it out of the said morter, and bray it upon the powder of suger, as it were meale or flower, untill it be like soft paste, to the end you may turn it, and fashion it which way you wil, as is aforesaid, with such fine knackes as may serve a Table taking heed there stand no hotte thing nigh it. At the end of the Banket they may eat all, and breake the Platters Dishes, Glasses Cuppes, and all other things, for this paste is very delicate and saverous. If you will make a Tarte of Almondes stamped with suger and Rosewater of this sorte that Marchpaines be made of, this shal you laye between two pastes of such vessels or fruits or some other things as you thinke good." Alys's approximations 1 teaspoon lemon juice 2 teaspoons rosewater (or more as needed) 1/2 to one lightly beaten egg white (can use reconstituted dried egg white) 1 teaspoon gum tragacanth up to a pound or so of powdered sugar (4 cups = 1 pound) Soak the gum tragacanth in the rosewater until it softens. Mix it thoroughly. It should become liquidy rather than paste- like. Add more liquid (water, rosewater) as necessary. Mix it with the lemon juice and egg white. Add the powdered sugar bit by bit, mixing well. If it becomes too stiff and there is a great deal of sugar left, add additional liquid or the rest of the egg white. Knead the dough on a board sprinkled with powdered sugar until the dough is smooth and stretchy. Then use it to shape what you will. Keep the unused portions and all scraps well covered under a glass jar, in a plastic bag, or under a slightly damp cloth. (If the cloth is too damp the paste will begin to dissolve. Add more powdered sugar and re-knead.) WORKING WITH AND PAINTING ON SUGAR PASTE, A FEW HINTS 1. Plan ahead! Sugar paste takes several days to a week or more to dry thoroughly. Lay the pieces on waxed paper and turn them from time to time to allow both sides to dry. You can also lay them on styrofoam pieces. Keep them away from heat and moisture. 2. Use waxed paper, a light coating of vegetable oil or Pam, or a dusting of powdered sugar or cornstarch to help the sugar paste come out from a mold. 3. Use non-toxic markers to outline the picture or words you want on the dried piece. If the marker "bleeds" you will then know to be extra careful when applying the color so that it doesn't bleed out of the lines. 4. Mix your colors on, for example, a plastic lid. Some people prefer to use vodka instead of water. Use only small amounts of liquid. The "runnier" the color is, the more likely it will run out of the area you are painting. Let it dry a little and use a sharp knife to cut out the mistake or to make the edge sharper. 5. If yours is a display piece, spray it with several coats of acrylic laquer (available at hobby supply places) to protect against moisture and people's fingers. If it is edible you need to be careful when handling it since your fingers may accidentally transfer bits of color to other parts of the item. The same goes for wrapping it in plastic wrap. Use a clean piece each time you wrap it up. 6. Work can be done by freehand or by transferring the pattern. Methods of transfer can range from carbon paper (be careful!), using soft pencil and tracing over that, overhead projector to project the image in varying sizes, etc. 7. "Glue" pieces together with egg white or royal icing (egg white, powdered sugar, liquid). Smooth over wrinkles and lines with a small amount of moisture and your finger or other tool. You can also sand out imperfections or cut them off with a sharp knife when the piece is dry. 8. Within reason, the thinner the sugar paste the prettier and better it looks. If the item is a bowl, for example, and is very thin, it may lose its shape if it is exposed to moisture in the air. Pennsic nights will damage pieces that have been dried for years. Well! It worked! (Couldn't find the file, at first). This is part of my handout on sugar paste and I thought that it might add to what I sent earlier this morning. Hope you can plow through it all! Alys K. From: Elise A. Fleming (1/5/95) To: Mark Harris RE>sugar paste Greetingss! The other side of town got its first big snow. The news reports were full of closed highways, a 30+ car accident, etc. I looked out my window, less than 25 miles away from the furor, and saw grass. We have an odd weather pattern in this area! Ok. A "jumball", in all its odd spellings is a "knot." I would recommend to you the book _'Banquetting Stuffe'_ edited by C. Anne Wilson. It's around $25 and WELL WORTH IT!! Those of us into desserts find all sorts of answers. I found some knot patterns there. One sort of knot looks like a pretzel. There are many recipes for iumbals (another spelling) in late period or rather 1625-1660 books. As to marbles, I assume it's what one plays with. I haven't found any other reference. But imagine, going to a banquet and being served an edible hockey puck, or baseball, etc. I doubt, from the way it is worded, that it refers to things made of marble. Statues were made of sugar and I have just come across the proceedings of the Oxford Symposium where some of these are described in detail. I hope to include it in an upcoming Confec- tion newsletter. Period dice? What about being carved of ivory? Again, I don't know. One of the students made dice out of sugar paste, though, and had fun playing with them when they dried. Twisting around a reed: Yup, my guess is as yours. A reed is straight and of uniform thickness, and is readily available in streams. Twigs are twisty and usually short, with odd projec- tions. Reeds were in demand for making calligraphy writing tools. Tried making my own once under the tutelage of a Laurel who makes his own reed pens. Ri-i-i-ght! Rosewater isn't that hard to find up here. I go to Middle East grocery or food stores. (Biased note: Finding a _clean_ one is hard!) I've been in two, after the one I usually used closed, and the shelves were dirty, dusty, and there was some- thing floating in the rosewater. So I left. Might try an Indian (from India) store also. Actually, I've grown to like rosewater. Generally I use it watered down so it doesn't strike one as "perfume". (Got my five minute disconnect warn- ing again!) Crayola markers say "non toxic" on the box. They only give you one black per box however. So, I began using black felt tip pens because NO ONE WAS GOING TO EAT THAT PARTICULAR PIECE! If it is made to be edible, I use the Crayola. There isn't any flavor that I am aware of. hardly any black is used since it is just for outlining. As to the intricate painting: In period it would have been the banquetting dishes. The cover of _'Banquetting Stuffe'_ has one. These are dishes used for the sweets. However, my stuff is SCA stuff, frequently given by royalty to royalty. So, I do a plate with the kingdom arms, or a period design with items pertaining to the royalty. I make plates to look like the Italian or Spanish Renaissance pottery. There are some period potteries that will give ideas. One minute Bye! Alys From: Elise A. Fleming (1/5/95) To: Mark Harris sugar things Hello, again. I just haven't gotten into the mindset that I should type all this out first and then have the program "auto- type" it. Got caught again by that darn one-hour restriction. This will be short. I just wanted to finish the previous post. Regarding painted objects: I mentioned that in Tudor and Stuart times there were wooden (I don't think they were ceramic) plates with complicated designs. A picture is on the cover of the book I mentioned. Some had verses or other items on the reverse side and at the end of the banquet the diner had to recite or sing what was on the reverse side. Most of my painted work is done for display within the SCA rather than in a medieval context. I have some postcards from a Pennsic vendor of the period-style pottery he/she makes. My plates look much like them. There are pattern books for some of the designs. Dover has one on Renaissance designs and one book shows the decorated pottery piece. Other designs I take from manuscripts. The borders are easily transferable to the border of a plate, a tile, or a bowl. I had started out trying to make a modern cake look like a medieval book (made several that had turnable, edible pages) and made a few cakes that tried to look like manuscripts. Late in period the Italians had a pottery manufacturing business where they pre-made and decorated the dishes but left the center blank so they could insert the arms of the the purchaser. I don't know that the English ever got into this. The Spanish and Portuguese also had decorated pottery. The implication is that the English didn't, even in Elizabethan times, since it seemed to be a novelty that they could throw these edible plates and watch them break. I'v also made a book, the covers of which were sugar paste with designs pressed into them and "jewels" added. Painted decora- tions were also used, especially inside the two covers. These were flat sections with holes put in the sides so that it could be bound with cord (hand-made lucet cord). The inside pages were of wafer (rice) paper and were painted with food colors and a liquid gold that wasn't edible. The writing was done with a fiber tip pen. I'm not a calligrapher (not much of one, any- how) so I didn't want to try using calligraphy ink, etc. Except for the secions where the gold was it _could_ have been edible. In the SCA we also seem to "split time" -- the real, medieval world and re-creating things that would have been accepted there, and the SCA world where no one questions painted plates and tiles. I've tried both. I guess, however, I have more experience with the latter. I said this would be short and I keep going on. Time to end. Alys Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:19:57 -0600 (MDT) From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com> Subject: SC - Gum Tragacanth I was pleased to find gum tragacanth being sold by the very reputable Dragonmarsh at Worldcon over Labor Day. You can contact them at: DragonMarsh 3737 6th Street Riverside, CA 92501 909-276-1116 Elaina Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:26:10 -0500 (CDT) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming ) Subject: SC - Gums Arabic and Tragacanth Greetings! (Drat digest format where it's harder to quote from posts!) Someone mentioned getting gum arabic and thought other names for it were gum tragacanth, gum dragon, etc. No, and no. Gum arabic isn't gum tragacanth. While both are used in cookery, gum tragacanth's primary use in period seems to have been in making sugar paste (modern day gum paste). You can't substitute gum arabic for gum tragacanth. I would hypothesize that the reverse would also be true, that one shouldn't substitute gum tragacanth for gum arabic. One of tragacanth's uses is as a strengthener. Arabic has been used to mix with colorants so that one can paint them onto foods or confections. When using one or the other, see what the recipe says, then use that one. I've been in the presence of sugar paste made with gum arabic. 'Tain't the same thing! Alys Katharine Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:34:45 -0500 (CDT) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming ) Subject: SC - 13th-Century Andalusian Sugar Candy Greetings! Here's the recipe (my translation) from the 13th-century Anonymous Manuscript. Charles Perry holds the copyright for what is in Cariadoc's _Collection_ but a bunch of us did the initial translations from Spanish to English. "Figures dressed in sugar" Cast to the sugar a similar amount of water or rose water and cook until its height is good. Tip it over into the mould and make of it whatever shape is in the mould, in the hidden places and those visible and whatever it seems on the dish that you want, because it comes out of the mould in the best way. Then decorate it with gilt and whatever you want of it. If you want to make a tree or a figure of a castle, cut it piece by piece. Then decorate it room by room (section by section) and stick it together with mastic until you complete the figure you want, if God wills. From this I would assume that moulds of some sort are used. In England at a later date moulds would be made of wood or plaster. Wooden ones would be soaked for up to a day and moulds would come in at least two, if not three, parts. Hollow figures were made in England by twirling the mould overhead or in one's hands. From this recipe one can deduce that models of castles were made, that trees, furniture, figures were cast or made in some fashion, and that gilding the figures was done. There isn't any mention here of coloring the figures as there is in _Curye on Inglysch_. Alys Katharine Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:52:41 -0500 (CDT) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming ) Subject: SC - A Mixed Bag (So to Speak) Our upcoming Middle Kingdom Coronation will be ably cooked by Master Basilicus who is attempting a period Italian feast, including as much period-style decorating of the room as possible. I am contributing plates made of sugar (20, if they all dry) based on period Italian ceramic plates with a central portrait and an outer section of various designs. I found a nice book on ceramics with photographs of period pieces, so I have copied the motifs and used colors from some of the color photos. Then I became carried away and added gold. The plates will be sprayed with acrylic laquer to protect them from moisture and to allow them to be taken home as souvenirs. Unfortunately, the last seven are reluctant to dry since we've been having several days of high humidity (and I'm too cheap to turn on the furnace so early in the "fall"). Alys Katharine Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:13:48 -0400 From: Ceridwen <ceridwen at commnections.com> Subject: Re: SC - Sugar plate and moulds > Ok, this is a question for everyone out there about sugar PLATE (not > PASTE) and similar things > My question is this -- does anyone have any idea what they would > have used for moulds? My husband's suggestion is to carve the item > out of soapstone, then pour a metal mould, but this is a VERY > non-trivial task. If this is "THE way it was done" I am willing to > go to the effort (the joy of marrying a carver!), but I'd rather have > an intelligent clue first. If anyone can even point me in the right > direction I'd appreciate it. Claricia, Hope this helps, although it is later in period than your source. In Delights for Ladies, (1609) Sir Hugh Plat mentions molds of carved wood, stone or plaster (molded from life) for "printing" of various stuffs, marchpane paste, sugar paste (made with isinglass or gum tragacanth. He instructs one to oil wooden molds with sweet almond oil, and those of stone or plaster with barrows grease. I have, I believe the recipe you are working from..."to make sugar plate" and "to make ymages in sugar" (curye V, 13 & 15 ). However, it is a photocopy froma class handout, without dates for each source. What is the date of these recipes, if you have it? Ceridwen > Claricia Nyetgale > so many projects, so little time > <Erin.Kenny at sofkin.ca> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 06:41:59 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Sugar plate and moulds > From: Erin Kenny <Erin.Kenny at sofkin.ca> > My question is this -- does anyone have any idea what they would > have used for moulds? My husband's suggestion is to carve the item > out of soapstone, then pour a metal mould, but this is a VERY > non-trivial task. If this is "THE way it was done" I am willing to > go to the effort (the joy of marrying a carver!), but I'd rather have > an intelligent clue first. If anyone can even point me in the right > direction I'd appreciate it. I _believe_ (bearing in mind I haven't yet had my dish of tay) that a sugar plate recipe occurs in Sir Hugh Plat's Delightes for Ladies, and he suggests making molds from some prepared calcium salt that is essentially commercial Plaster of Paris. Of course, the sugar plate in his recipe is uncooked, and so involves less heat than the kind of sugar work we're doing. But it might be worth trying, if it was sufficiently dry and oiled. Adamantius Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:55:17 -0500 (CDT) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming) Subject: SC - Re: Sugar Plate and Moulds Greetings! A number of the moulds for sugar work were wooden. If using melted sugar they would be soaked to prevent sticking. Directions vary on how long they should be soaked in cold water - from two hours (I think) up to a day. A number of the moulds were in two or three parts, tied with string once the melted sugar was added and twirled in the hands to coat the inside of the mould, leaving the center hollow. The making of "sugar plate" in Forme of Curye would seem to imply that the melted sugar was poured out, possibly within a tin/metal form to make it form a (square?) plate. As mentioned, molds could also be made of plaster. I keep looking for the reference that instructs the cook to press down the lemon/fruit into wet sand, pour in the plaster, and thus make the mold to cast the sugar in. I've read it, but I can't find it! Sugar paste could be "printed" in molds, possibly wood or plaster. One could also cut shapes out of sugar paste by using a knife or a tin cutter, which I assume to be like the small tin cookie cutters one can currently buy in cake decorating supply shops. The Manuscrito Anonimo mentions making a castle of sugar as well as all its furnishings. I assume a mold would need to be made. Carving a wooden mold would seem to be easier than soapstone, would it not?? Alys Katharine Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:08:53 +0000 From: Erin Kenny <Erin.Kenny at sofkin.ca> Subject: SC - Ymages in suger (with original recipe) >From Curye on Inglische, Part V: Goud Kokery. Recipe #15: Ymages in suger MS Source: Harl. 2378 To make ymages in suger. And if 3e will make any ymages or any o[th]er [th]ing in suger [th]at is casten in moldys, sethe [th]em in [th]e same manere [th]at [th]e plate is, and poure it into [th]e moldes in [th]e same manere [th]at [th]e plate is pouryde, but loketh 3oure mold be anoyntyd before wyth a litell oyle of almaundes. Whan [th]ei are oute of [th] moylde 3e mow gylde [th]em or colour [th]em as 3e will. 3if 3e will gilde [th]em or siluer [th]em, noynte [th]em wyth gleyre of an egge and gilde [th]em or siluer [th]em, and if 3e will make [th]em rede take a litell gum araby, and [th]an anoynt it all abowte and make it rede. And 3if 3e will make it grene, take ynde wawdeas ii penywey3te, | ii penyweyte of saffron, [th]e water of [th]e gleyr of ii egges, and stampe all wele togeder and anoynte it wyth all. And if 3e will make it lightly grene, put more saffron [th]erto. And in [th]is maner mow 3e caste alle manere froytes also, and colour it wyth [th]e same colour as diuerse as 3e will, and [th]er [th]at [th]e blossom of [th]at per of apel schull stand put [th]erto a clowe & [th]er [th]e stalke schall stand makes [th]at of kanell. The [th] character is the funky character that looks sort of like a wierd p. The 3 looks a lot like a 3 in my book. Thank you for all of your suggestions. I think we are going to try both wooden and plaster molds. I guess the first thing I'll do is try recipe 13 (To make sugar plate), because this recipe builds on it. (It's going to take my hubby a little while to carve me a mold anyhow.) Claricia Nyetgale Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 06:44:22 -0500 (CDT) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming) Subject: SC - Clarifying Sugar Greetings. Claricia wrote: >Has anyone out there done sugar plate? I don't mean the paste kind >of stuff. I can post the original if it would help, but I have no >idea how to "clarify" sugar. I will confess that I haven't myself boiled up a sugar syrup and poured it out to try making plates. It should be similar to making "stained glass" for candy windows. Regarding clarifying sugar, there are "recipes" in late-period books that say to use the white of an egg. However, my understanding is that _we_ modern folk don't need to clarify sugar since the impurities that were in the period sugar are not there in the modern sugar. If I recall correctly, there are more detailed instructions for clarifying sugar in turn-of-the-century cookbooks. If someone is wanting to try it, let me know and I will look in a couple of the early 20th-c. cookbooks that I have. Alys Katharine Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:12:20 +0800 From: Margritte <margritt at mindspring.com> Subject: SC - Sugar Questions Below are two recipes I used as a basis for a sugar-paste confection entered in a recent A&S competition. One of the judges made the comment that "... powdered sugar is not period." My question is, if a late period recipe calls for "refined sugar" ground in a mortar, why isn't powdered sugar period? What should I have used instead? This same judge made a comment on another entry of mine, saying "Brown sugar is not period- the raw sugar would be great." I'd like opinions from the list. - -Margritte To make Paste of flowers of the colour of Marble, tasting of natural flowers. Take every sort of pleasing Flowers, as Violets, Cowslips, Gilly-flowers, Roses or Marigolds, and beat them in a Mortar, each flower by itself with sugar, till the sugar become the colour of the flower, then put a little Gum Dragon steept in water into it, and beat it to a perfect paste; and when you have half a dozen colours, every flower will take of his nature, then rowl the paste therein, and lay one piece upon another, in mingling sort, so rowl your paste in small rowls, as big and as long as your finger, then cut it off the bigness of a small Nut, overthwart, and so rowl them thin, that you may see a knife through them, so dry them before the fire till they be dry. A Queen's Delight or The Art of Preserving, Conserving and Candying, printed for Nathaniel Brook, 1654. To make Paste Royall-white. Take a pound of refined sugar beaten and searced and put into an Alabaster Mortar, with an ounce of Gum dragagant, steeped in Rose water: and if you see your Paste be too weake, put in more sugar; if too dry, more Gumme, with a drop or two of oyle of Cinnamon, so that you never deceive your self, to stand upon quantities: beat it into perfect paste, and then you may print it with your molds: and when it is dry, gild it, and so keep them. A Closet for Ladies and Gentlewomen or The Art of preserving, conserving and candying, printed for Arthur Johnson, 1608. Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:29:16 +0800 From: Margritte <margritt at mindspring.com> Subject: Re: SC - Competitions? >>3. I can "specialize" to some extent. Right now, I'm on a candy-making >>kick. It's kinda hard to turn that into a complete feast. > > Course you can. Advertise it as a medieval candy-fest and I can >guartunee that there would be a few bookings. It might not have the >attendance of Pensic, but it would be - interesting- to see. >-Sianan > >Marina Denton >sianan at geocities.com Well, let's see here... Looking through some of my recipes I find: To make Collops like Bacon of Marchpane. Take some of your Marchpane Paste, and work it in red Saunders till it be red, then rowl a broad sheet of white Paste, and a sheet of red Paste, three of the white, and four of the red, and so one upon another in mingled sorts, every red between, then cut them overthwart, till it look like Collops of Bacon, then dry it. A Queen's Delight or The Art of Preserving, Conserving and Candying, printed for Nathaniel Brook, 1654. and... A most delicate & stiffe sugar paste whereof to cast Rabbets, Pigeons, or any other little birde or beast, either from the life or carued molds. First dissolue Isinglasse in faire water or with some Rosewater in the latter ende, then beate blanched almonds as you woulde for marchpane stuffe, and drawe the same with creame, and Rosewater (milke will serue, but creame is more delicate) then put therein some powderd sugar, into which you may dissolue your Isinglasse beeing first made into gellie, in faire warme water (note, the more Isinnglasse you put therein, the stiffer your worke will prooue) the hauing your rabbets, woodcocke, &c. molded either i plaister from life, or else carued in wood (first annointing your wooden moldes with oyle of sweete almonds, and your plaister or stone moldes with barrowes grease) poure your sugar-paste thereon. A quarte of creame, a quarterne of almonds, 2. ounces of Isinglasse, and 4 or 6. ounces of sugar, is a reasonable good proportion for this stuffe. You may dredge ouer your foule with crums of bread, cinnamon and sugar boiled together, and so they will seeme as if they were rosted and breaded, Leach & gelly may be cast in this manner. This paste you may also driue with a fine rowling pin, as smooth & as thin as you please; it lasteth not long, & therefore it must be eaten within a fewe daies after the making thereof. By this meanes a banquet may bee presented in the forme of a supper, being a verie rare and strange deuise. Delightes for Ladies, by Sir Hugh Plat, 1609. I'm sure there are others as well, so maybe a "complete" feast _could_ be made out of candies. But I won't be the one to try it :-) BTW- if any of the characters come out looking strange on your screen, they are probably long esses. Enjoy! - -Margritte Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 07:50:05 -0500 (CDT) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming) Subject: SC - Re: Sugar Adamantius wrote: >Oh, another little snippet. Some sugar paste recipes call for the >paste to be kneaded and rolled out with some rice flour to keep it >from sticking to the marble, don't they? I have no idea about >comparative percentages, but the final product would contains some >starch, just as it would if using modern confectioners' sugar. Off the top of my head, I can't recall any of the _period_ ones that say that. It might be that a) it was assumed you'd do so to prevent sticking; b) no one thought of it and didn't do so because they made the paste relatively non-sticky; c) this was a later addition OOP; d) they used more powdered sugar (see below) e) Alys can't remember well. Now, I _should_ hop up from the computer and flip through some of my books but... I'm in the middle of double-checking the Pennsic schedule, so I will postpone it. Rice flour would be a logical addition but what _I_ do is sprinkle additional powdered sugar on the board when it gets sticky. Without looking at my cookery books, I would hazard that this might have been done during period rather than using rice flour. In fact, I seem to recall (now that the brain cells are activating) that someone mentioned _not_ to use starch because that ruined it. Which, then, would imply that some people _did_ use starch. I gotta go look this stuff up! Alys Katharine Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 13:52:03 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Re: Sugar Elise Fleming wrote: > > Adamantius wrote: > > >Oh, another little snippet. Some sugar paste recipes call for the > >paste to be kneaded and rolled out with some rice flour to keep it > >from sticking to the marble, don't they? I have no idea about > >comparative percentages, but the final product would contains some > >starch, just as it would if using modern confectioners' sugar. > > Off the top of my head, I can't recall any of the _period_ ones that > say that. It might be that a) it was assumed you'd do so to prevent > sticking; b) no one thought of it and didn't do so because they made > the paste relatively non-sticky; c) this was a later addition OOP; d) > they used more powdered sugar (see below) e) Alys can't remember well. One example I have on hand is Harl. 2378 (see Goud Kokery, all you manuscriptally challenged), which has a _cooked_ sugar plate recipe, calling for a dusting of rice flour from a bag like the rosin bag used by a baseball pitcher. Used the same way, like a powder puff, shooting out a fine spray of flour on impact. It may or may not have been used in the later, uncooked versions, but it wouldn't be unreasonable if it were. Of course, not being shocked if something occurred is not the same as saying it occurred, but it's s start. > Rice flour would be a logical addition but what > _I_ do is sprinkle additional powdered sugar on the board when it gets > sticky. Even granulated sugar is used this way by modern confectioners, especially for puff pastry. How old the technique is, I couldn't say. Just about anything that will coat the surface of the putatively sticky stuff without itself becoming sticky ought to work. I've done this with sugar, grated cheese, cocoa, paprika, salt, etc. Ultrafine sugar, unmixed with starch, doesn't seem to work as well, though, so it is an interesting question as to whether the technique of using modern, adulterated confectioners' sugar is derived from using starch or sugar. I did find it interesting to see that it was rice flour, but not amydoun, a more easily available starch, being used. Possibly a more neutral flavor? > Without looking at my cookery books, I would hazard that this > might have been done during period rather than using rice flour. In > fact, I seem to recall (now that the brain cells are activating) that > someone mentioned _not_ to use starch because that ruined it. Which, > then, would imply that some people _did_ use starch. I gotta go look > this stuff up! Ye Olde Exceptionne Thatte Proveth Ye Rule...; ) Adamantius Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:19:41 -0500 (CDT) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming) Subject: SC - Re: OOP? Candy Bubbles Greetings! The original poster included a line from the "expert" to the effect of "Don't try this at home". I suspect it was because the process is a bit more complicated than it seems, plus the possible danger of working with melted sugar. I found, purely by accident at a Borders outlet store, _Sugar Work_ (Blown- and Pulled-Sugar Techniques) by Peter Boyle. He shows the equipment needed and the processes used for making a variety of things from blown (and pulled) sugar, including stemmed glassware, fruits, large and small vases, etc. The book is fascinating and gives one a bit of respect for such fanciful work. As to "period"? I _think_ there is evidence for pulled sugar, at least, in late period (Italy). Don't know if blown sugar might have been done. The molten sugar syrup was known (Curye on Inglysch, plus the 13th c. Anonymous Andalusian cookbook), and glass blowers existed. Did they put the two together? One would have to do a bit more delving into the descriptions of feasts and banquets in Italy. Alys Katharine Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:21:16 +1000 (EST) From: The Cheshire Cat <sianan at geocities.com> Subject: Re: SC - OOP(?)Candy Bubbles I don't remember anything about glycerin involved, and, other than the >dangers involved in dealing with hot sugar syrups, it didn't appear all that >difficult. Could be fun to try! At a guess, a couple of feet of brass tubing >would probably work fairly well.......... > > Ldy Diana The glycerine supposedly gives the mixture a small amount of elacticity (I think that's how you spell it). It's also used in cake decorating in Royal icing to help it keep it's shape better. I think that adding it to the sugar would make the sugar easier to 'blow'. As for the technique, I had the opportunity to do it once. I wasn't very good at it. It's a lot like blowing glass. I've seen a glassblower make a wren out of melted sugar. It looked so pretty. It's fun, but beware of the hot sugar. I had blisters galore after this small experiment. Also, Sugar cools a lot quicker than what glass does, so you have to work very quickly. If you don't, the sugar will set and of you work too quickly, the blown figure will explode showering a quite amazing distance with shards of sugar of varying temperatures. Just and educated guess about the glycerine and what I've seen of this technique. As I said I've only done it one, and badly, so I'm in no way and expert. I get better techniques with royal icing. - -Sianan ************************************************************************** Marina Denton sianan at geocities.com Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:12:44 -0400 From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - OOP(?)Candy Bubbles The approved material for the tube is either pyrex or wood, based on what I've seen, and they are available at better restaurant supply houses. I suspect the metal tube motif was introduced as something that would be easily available, if not exactly ideal for the job. The pyrex or glass ones are really odd-looking, with various bulges and constrictions... like you should be playing music on them. Adamantius Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:06:36 -0400 From: "Alma Johnson" <chickengoddess at mindspring.com> Subject: Re: SC - Candy Bubbles - rambling OK, the article, which appears in the wedding issue of MSL, cake section, shows a hand pump(rather pipette like) and refers to the hand pumping of air into the sugar mass in order to form the bubble. No lips seem to be involved, but that wasn't a foolish concern, Brenna. It mentions glycerine as an ingredient and says nothing about why, although the elasticity thing is pretty much what I figured would be the reason for its addition. The article definitely mentions the use of a torch, although where in the process is not mentioned. Mistress Aethelwyn, our resident candy maker and myself decided to approach Mistress Christiana in hopes of enlightenment because she is a clasically trained chef. She figured that the torch would be used to maintain the sugar mass at a working (elastic) temperature, as "blowing" would cool it down and harden it. Many thanks to Alys Katherine for mentioning her find - I've already got Borders online doing an out of print search for it. Any other info, leads, etc. are most welcome. We will also be trying to document the technique, but I'm afraid that the concept of glass blowing meets confectionary probably won't hold. I am a glazier, and at least at my end of things, there's no crossover from windows to cooking, at least not directly. Thanks for all the input on this topic so far, and thanks to Mistress Christiana for wasting no time getting this out to the list. Gosh, I don't suppose I could use a jewelers torch on sugar, whaddaya think Cariadoc? Rhiannon Cathaoir-mor on way too much benadryl thanks to thousand year old eggs Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:19:25 -0400 From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Candy Bubbles - rambling DianaFiona at aol.com wrote: > chickengoddess at mindspring.com writes: > << Gosh, I don't > suppose I could use a jewelers torch on sugar, whaddaya think Cariadoc? > > Why not? It's fairly common practice to use a small torch in professional > kitchens to carmelize the sugar on creme brulee--I've even done it myself. And > I'd think that a stationary torch, such as the one you use for lampworking, > would be ideal. I'd want to have both hands free to use on the blowpipe, > myself...... ;-) One thing to be careful of, though, is that a torch produces a somewhat pressurized flame, and while it's pretty easy to compensate for that, I believe the most common tool I've seen used for the job is an alcohol lamp. There's a little ni-chrome wire gadget, like the inside of your toaster, they use for cutting the pieces. Adamantius Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 00:13:03 -0500 From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) Subject: Re: SC - OOP(?)Candy Bubbles >>Of course, as Adamatius and others mentioned, another material would be better, but for an easy-to-find material to experiment with, a metal pipe should do.<< One of my Dad's antique purchases in Japan or Korea was a brass pipe. It had a fairly short stem, and the mouthpiece was cork, fitted over the brass end. Could you hollow out a wine cork, slip it over your candy tube, and be safer in the kitchen? Allison Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:09:43 -0500 (CDT) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming) Subject: SC - Re: Elizabethan Buffet Sir Gunthar wrote: >I'm doing a buffet for a friend who is sitting vigil for his Laurel. >Since he is VERY Elizabethan I decided to try to make his buffet as >much in keeping with his personna as possible. Don't know why I didn't think of this earlier... A sugar paste plate decorated with his arms and a laurel wreath with perhaps his name and date of elevation around the rim. Other Elizabethan designs, motifs, can be painted on. The effect is to make something like one of the decorated dessert plates that are illustrated on the front of "Banquetting Stuffe". These were used at the Elizabethan "banquets" (dessert courses) and frequently had a poem or song on the back side that the recipient had to sing/recite, etc. For a keepsake, spray it with acrylic laquer or varnish. How far into the future is this vigiling? Is it at least a month away? Could you e-mail me privately, O Glorious Baron-ic Knight?? Alys Katharine Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:14:29 -0500 (CDT) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming) Subject: SC - Re:Elizabethan Buffet: Sugar Paste Roundels Gunther and I wrote: >> Could you e-mail me privately, O Glorious Baron-ic Knight?? >I could email this privately but I'm sure you'll get a lot of "Hey! No >fair! You told HIM how to do it!" messages and I wouldn't want to do >that to you. Well... Actually, if the vigil had been, say, two-three weeks from now I was going to volunteer to make one for you if you'd send me his arms. :-) The plates ship okay... I sent 12 out to the SCA 25th Anniversary a few years ago and they arrived okay. For hints and some instructions, check out my letters to Stefan which he has posted in his Florilegium. If it is next week, you should make the plate _now_, if you want to do one. It will take 3-4 days (or more) to dry, depending on how thick or thinly you roll the paste. I just found a reference to square plates (round) approx. 12-14 cm. I usually make my square plates 5" but it wouldn't be too difficult to make something larger, if desired. The painting can be done with regular illuminator's colors, or cake decorating paste colors with a dab of water. If you make the plate, and your Lady wants to use paste colors, check the Florilegium or post me and I'll give some hints. Anyone else want to dabble with sugar paste?? We need more in the world! Alys Katharine Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 21:39:12 -0400 From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: SC - Ave Maria runtime and sugar - long Cindy Renfrow wrote: > 13 To make suger plate. Take a lb. of fayr clarefyde suger and put it in a > panne and sette it on a furneys, & gar it sethe. And asay [th]i suger > betwene [th]i fingers and [th]i thombe, and if it parte fro [th]i finger > and [th]i thombe [th]an it is inow sothen, if it be potte suger. And if it > be finer suger, it will haue a litell lower decoccioun. And sete it [th]an > fro the fyr on a stole, & [th]an stere it euermore with a spature till it > tourne owte of hys browne colour into a [3]elow colour, and [th]an sette it > on [th]e fyre ageyn [th]e mountynance of a Aue Maria, whill euermore > steryng wyth [th]e spatur, and sette it of ageyne, but lat it noght wax > ouer styfe for cause of powrynge. And loke [th]ou haue redy beforne a fair > litel marbill stone and a litell flour of ryse in a bagge, shakyn ouer > [th]e marbill stone till it be ouerhilled, and [th]an powre [th]i suger > [th]ereon as [th]in as it may be renne, for [th]e [th]inner [th]e platen > [th]e fairer it is. If [th]ou willt, put [th]erin any diuerse flours, > [th]at is to say roses leues, violet leues, gilofre leues, or any o[th]er > flour leues, kut [th]em small and put [th]em in whan [th]e suger comes > first fro [th]e fyre. And if [th]ou wilt mak fyne suger plate, put [th]erto > att [th]e first sethying ii unces of rose water, and if [3]e will make rede > plate, put [th]erto I unce of fyne tournesole clene waschen at [th]e fyrst > sethying." I think I see what's happening here. We are treating this recipe like a modern candy recipe, most of which tend to involve making a syrup of sugar and water, and cooking it to a certain stage/temperature. I don't believe that's what's happening here. I ran across this same problem when experimenting with anise in confit, from, incidentally, the same manuscript source as this appears to come from. What this recipe tells us to do is not to make a syrup, which might well take 20-30 minutes or more to cook to the hard crack stage, or whatever the original cook/author has in mind. It tells us to melt the sugar, which could admittedly take a long time over very low heat if we want to avoid burning or even excessive caramelization. I gather pot sugar has more water and impurities in it than finer grades, which might mean fine sugar needs to be cooked a little less, hence the reference to the lower decoction. We are then to remove the candy pot from the fire, allowing it to cool a bit, stirring it, probably, so a) it cools evenly, b) so air bubbles can get in it and make it a bit on the opaque side, and c) so tiny crystals will form in it, finishing the job of making the syrup an opaque yellow goo instead of a clear colorless or amber syrup. By this time we have a pretty stiff, taffy-like goo. Not something we can easily pour into molds or on a slab. What do we do? We put it back on the fire. If the rather similar instructions in the confit recipe are anything to go on (they also fail to mention adding any water, and apparently call for a rather brief cooking time), we only need to heat our goo until it is semi-runny again. As in, maybe half a minute or less. We stir it constantly to detach solid bits from the pan and keep it from burning. This brings us back to the Ave Maria, which takes, coincidentally, half a minute or less to recite. (I've been unable to find a Catholic, including a local parish priest, aware of a Marian ritual or anything else that might require 25 or 30 minutes to run through.) By this time the syrup, which is still quite hot after all, if not at its original 225 degrees or above, Fahrenheit, will most likely be pourable. Now, this recipe does mention the addition of some water, but it is an optional step, and what it would affect is the time for cooking our goo in the initial stages, which is determined, more or less, by the test of whether it will spin a cleanly snapping thread from the fingers. This test is something I've seen before in candy recipes. (BTW: you are supposed to dampen your fingers before doing this, unless you want a serious burn!) By the time we get to our Ave Maria stage, our cooked sugar mass is pretty close to being anhydrous, so I can't imagine why cooking it for 30 minutes more would have any desired effect. Adamantius Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:41:50 -0600 (CST) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming) Subject: SC - Re: Recipe from Murrell Lucretzia wrote: >By Gum-dragon I would say they mean Dragonsblood, which is today and >has been since ancient times, an East Indian shrub known as Dracoena >draco, and the pigment is the dried resin sap of the plant. I disagree. Gum-dragon is gum tragacanth in modern life, and is used in sugar paste recipes as part of the ingredients. It is identified as "a gum obtained from various Asian or Easst European leguminous plants (genus Astragalus, esp. A. gummifer) that swells in water and is used in the arts and in pharmacy." It is not a pigment and has no coloring of its own. In modern gum paste, substitutions for gum tragacanth are used such as gum karaya, which is cheaper, but has a slight pinkish cast. Alys Katharine Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 12:35:10 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Sugar Plate sculptures "Amanda B. Humphrey" wrote: > I am entering sugar plate sculpture as well and > am working with it as I type. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to > mold the sugar without it sticking