rice-pudding-msg

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rice-pudding-msg -11/29/18

Period rice puddings, both savory and sweet.

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Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:01:58 +0000

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Re: White, Dafair, Flour & Semolina

And it came to pass on 4 Nov 97, that Christina van Tets wrote:

> 4) Is there a (period) semolina pudding (cold) which uses dates,

> spices and rosewater? I seem to be devising one but thought it not

> unlikely that a recipe already existed.

Does it have to be semolina? There's a Spanish pudding-like recipe

called "Ginestada" which is made with rice flour and almond milk (or

goat milk). When the mixture is half-cooked, add sugar, a little

saffron dissolved in rosewater, as well as pine nuts and quartered

(slivered) almonds and dates. Cook well. Egg yolks may be added

towards the end of cooking, but are not required. I did not add any

when I tried this dish, which came out rather like an Indian "firni"

- -- sweet, pleasant, and a little bland. The recipe says to sprinkle

the finished dish with sugar and cinnamon, but then, the "Libro de

Guisados" says to sprinkle nearly *everything* with sugar and/or

cinnamon, and de Nola comments in some other recipe that it can be

omitted, since food should be cooked according to your lord's taste.

The quantities listed for "five dishes" are: 2 ounces of rice flour,

one ounce sugar, almond milk from a pound and a half of almonds.

Amounts are not given for the other ingredients -- I opted for a

ginestada that was fairly thickly studded with dates and nuts.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper at idt.net

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 09:11:25 EDT

From: WOLFMOMSCA at aol.com

Subject: SC - Art/Sci results

On a whim, I decided last Tuesday that I would enter something in Art/Sci,

since I had to be there with my Clan sister, da Queen. I made rice puddings.

Here goes:

Original recipe from Gervase Markham's The English Hous-Wife, 1615: Take

halfe a pound of Rice, and steep it in new Milk a whole night, and in the

morning drain it, and let the Milk drop away, and take a quart of the best,

sweetest, and thickest Cream, and put the Rice into it, and boyl it a little.

Then set it to cool and hour or two, and after put in the yolkes of half a

dozen Eggs, a little Pepper, Cloves, Mace, Currants, Dates, Sugar, and Salt,

put in a great store of Beef suet well beaten, and small shred, and so put it

into the farms and boyl them as before shewed, and serve them after a day old.

My redaction:

1/2 lb short-grain white Valencia rice

2 c whole milk

1 qt heavy whipping cream

6 egg yolks (laid Wednesday, free-range browns)

1/2 c turbinado sugar (all natural from Hain's)

1/8 t white pepper

1/8 t salt

1/8 t ground cloves

1/8 t ground mace

1/4 c golden raisins (I discovered to my dismay at 2 AM that my box of dates

left over from Xmas were not in the house)

1/4 c chopped dates

2 T beef suet, beaten and shredded

Steep rice in milk for 10-12 hours. Drain well. In a saucepan, bring the

cream and the rice to a boil. Reduce heat and simmer 15 minutes, stirring

constantly. It will thicken considerably. Remove from heat and let stand 2

hours. Steep the fruits in warm water while the rice & cream are cooling.

Whisk together the egg yolks, sugar, and spices. Fold this mixture into the

rice & cream. Fold in the plumped fruits. Mix in the suet. Pour batter

into ramekins. Place them into a roaster pan and fill to within 1/2 inch of

rims with hot water. Cover and steam in 350 deg. oven for 45 minutes. Chill

overnight, bring to room temp before serving.

It got rave reviews from everyone who tasted it. The judging form contained

a lot of Excellents! and Nicely Dones! and Making for Which Feast in the

Future? ;-) It received the full ten point score of Extraordinary Merit,

and was apparently nominated for a Non-Pareil (the lady who received the

Non-Pareil did a scroll that was drop-dead gorgeous, hand-made vellum,

paints, inks, etc., 24-k gold leaf, just splendid work and highly deserving

of the honor, IMHO).

I've entered Art/Sci before. Each time, it was with some art form I was just

learning, or not very accomplished at, and the experiences were, shall we

say, less than happy ones. This time, I finally just did what I'm good at,

and now I'm stoked to do it again. Off I go now, to plot out the dishes for

the next one.

Wolfmother

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 10:28:42 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Art/Sci results

WOLFMOMSCA at aol.com wrote:

> On a whim, I decided last Tuesday that I would enter something in Art/Sci,

> since I had to be there with my Clan sister, da Queen. I made rice puddings.

Congrats! I'm so glad to hear someone come away from an A&S competition

with a completely positive experience. They _do_ happen, surely, but

it's been a while since I've heard about one. Thank you for sharing the

experience and the recipe.

I do have one minor quibble, which I mention only as a way to take full

advantage of the ingredients you obviously chose so carefully, something

you might try in the future: the "farmes" [var. "tharmes"] mentioned are

intestines, I believe. These are, I think, supposed to be sausages. You

might check out Markham's other pudding recipes, which seem to be mixed

in with sausages ["links"] and black puddings, for a clear contextual

reference. What you've come up with does sound a marvelous filling for

them, though. Hmmm. I have some sausage casings in the freezer... .

Adamantius

Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:06:12 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC - candied spices and other stuff

And it came to pass on 2 Aug 99,, that Sharon R. Saroff wrote:

> I am also looking for information as to the periodness of pudding using

> grains such as rice and wheat or using noodles. I am particularly

> intersted in a middle eastern connection. Could someone look up noodle

> kugel or rice pudding in "A Drizzle of Honey"?

> Sindara

Is Spanish close enough? Here are two recipes from the _Libro de

Guisados_ (1529) for ginestada, which is a pudding-like dish made with

rice flour, dates, and nuts.

GINESTADA (1)

Take rice and make flour of it and sift it through a hair sieve, and take

milk of goats or of sheep and if this is not to be found, take almond milk

and dissolve this rice flour in the almond milk or goat milk, in such a

way that it shall be quite clear and then set it to cook in the pot and into

the pot you shall cast these things: sugar and peeled dates and pine

nuts and whole, clean, blanched hazel nuts: and the dates cut into the

size of fingers, and cast all fine spices into the pot and stir it always

with a stick, and if you wish to make the ginestada white you may

make it thus; and likewise you may put cinnamon instead of sugar upon

the dishes, and seeds of sour pomegranates and it is necessary that

the pot should rest a little while before you prepare the dishes.

GINESTADA (2)

Take blanched almonds and remove the milk from them, and it would be

better with the milk of goats; and take the spices the night before which

are whole cinnamon and ginger and cloves, however everything, and put

them to soak in rosewater and then take for each dish two ounces of

rice flour and one ounce of sugar; and for five dishes take a pound and a

half of almonds; and then in the morning take the milk, and put it in the

pot where it must cook and cast in the flour little by little; and stirring it

always so that the flour does not become like plaster with the milk; and

so go to the fire with great care to cook; and when you see that it is half

cooked, take peeled almonds and cut them into four quarters, and take

dates, and cut them in the same manner; and pine nuts, and mix them

all together; and when the sauce is half cooked cast all this inside; and

then take a little saffron, and grind it well and dissolve it with a little

rosewater; and cast it in the pot, because this sauce should have a lot

of color, and leave it to cook a good while with all these things until it is

cooked; and let it be on a day of eggs, because you will take beaten

egg yolks, and when you want to remove the sauce from the fire cast

the yolks inside; but to be called ginestada there is no necessity for

eggs, and prepare dishes and cast sugar and cinnamon upon them.

notes: the second recipe comes from the Lenten chapter of the _Libro

de Guisados_, hence I assume that a "day of eggs" is one when the

religion fasting laws permitted the consumption of eggs. Those who are

less than fond of saffron may wish to note that the first recipe is for a

saffron-free "white" ginestada, in contrast to the second recipe, which is

meant to be brightly colored. I made the white version once in my pre-

diabetic days (with almonds to replace the hazelnuts I could not find) ,

and found it pleasant. The nuts and the dates give a nice variety of

texture and flavor to what might otherwise be an overly bland dish.

Brighid

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:35:59 +1000

From: "Lee-Gwen Booth" <piglet006 at globalfreeway.com.au>

Subject: Re: SC - Help!!

This recipe from Pleyn Delit is one which I have tried and found very good;

as well, it is served cold and as such should fit your criteria well.

Rice Pudding with Honey and Almonds (Ryc)

1/2c short grain rice [or medium works well too]

1 1/2 c milk, water, or a combination

4 oz (1/2c) ground almonds blanched

1/4c sugar

2 tbsp honey

1c boiling water

Cover the rice with the milk (or whatever combination you wish here)

and bring to a simmer; cook over low heat, very gently, for at least 30

minutes, stirring occasionally and adding more water if it shows signs of

drying out. It should be cooked until quite soft. Then remove from heat

and put aside to cool, so that any remaining cooking liquid is absorbed.

Meanwhile, put the almonds, sugar, and honey in a pan and cover with

boiling water. Stir and allow to steep. When the rice has cooled, stir the

almond mixture into the rice and put back on the heat; cook, stirring

constantly, over medium low heat for about 5 minutes, or until pudding seems

quite thick. Remove from heat and pour into serving dish; cool and chill.

The original recipe does not call for any spices. But on the assumption that

the medieval cook often reached for powder douce (or something) almost

automatically, as we do salt and pepper, it seems permissible to sprinkle

the top of the pudding with cinnamon and/or nutmeg.

Gwynydd

Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 22:29:24 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: SC - Recipe: Ginestada (rice pudding)

I posted this translation to the list some time ago, but I only recently

worked out a redaction. I took it today to a baronial gathering, where it

was well received.

Source: Ruperto de Nola, _Libro de Guisados_ (Spanish, 1529)

Translation & redaction: Brighid ni Chiarain (Robin Carroll-Mann)

Ginestada

Take rice and make flour of it and sift it through a hair sieve, and take

milk of goats or of sheep and if this is not to be found, take almond milk

and dissolve this rice flour in the almond milk or goatís milk, in such a

way that it shall be quite clear and then set it to cook in the pot, and into

the pot you shall cast these things: sugar and peeled dates and pine

nuts and whole, clean, blanched hazelnuts: and the dates cut into the

size of fingers, and cast all fine spices into the pot and stir it always

with a stick, and if you wish to make the ginestada white you may make

it thus; and likewise you may put cinnamon instead of sugar upon the

dishes, and seeds of sour pomegranates and it is necessary that the pot

rests a little while before you prepare the dishes.

Ginestada (Rice Pudding with Dates and Nuts)

1/2 gallon milk

12 ounces rice flour

1 cup sugar

1 cup dried dates, coarsely chopped

1/2 cup blanched hazelnuts (filberts)

1/2 cup pine nuts

1/4 teaspoon nutmeg

1/2 teaspoon ginger

saffron (optional)

Place the milk in a large pot. Add the rice flour and stir with a whisk

until thoroughly dissolved. Add remaining ingredients and mix well.

Place the pot over medium heat and cook, stirring constantly. The rice

flour will begin to thicken as it cooks. When it begins to boil, remove

from heat. Allow to stand a few minutes before serving. The ginestada

may also be refrigerated and served cold.

Notes:

Ginestada gets its name from "ginesta", the Spanish name for broom, a

shrub which has bright yellow flowers. Most recipes for this dish call

for saffron as an ingredient, which would give the ginestada a yellow

color. The 14th century Catalan cookbook _Libre de Sent Sovi_ instructs

the cook to add saffron so that it will turn the color of broom. However,

this particular recipe from the _Libro de Guisados_ specifies that one

may leave the dish white, if so desired. I tried adding a pinch of saffron

to one of the batches I made, and discovered that it was barely visible. It

would take much more saffron than I am willing to expend in order to

make ginestada the color of broom.

Ingredients used in other period recipes for ginestada include: blanched

almonds, dried figs, raisins, currants, honey, rosewater, cinnamon,

cloves, pepper, and egg yolks.

This recipe uses the milk of goats or sheep, or almond milk. A later

recipe in the _Arte de Cozina_ (1599) calls for cow's milk. I tried both

cow's milk and goat's milk, and found no noticeable difference in taste

or texture.

The _Arte de Cozina_ says that ginestada may be served hot or cold,

and that it will keep 4-5 days in winter.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:55:31 -0400

From: Ann & Les Shelton <sheltons at conterra.com>

Subject: SC - Re: Ginestada

I just bought Scully's new "Cuoco Napoletano" and have started to thumb

through it. It contains a similar recipe to that from the "Libro de

Guisados." Genestra is the Italian word for Spanish Broom. Scully dates

the "Cuco Napoletano" to mid-15th cen., so this recipe is theoretically

"older" than the "Libro de Guisados" version, but they're pretty

similar. It shows there was a flow of cooking information across

countries. Too bad we have no way of knowing how many additional

manuscripts have been lost to antiquity.

John le Burguillun

39. White Genestrata (Scully Translation)

Get almonds, peel them and grind them up thoroughly and, when ground,

strain them; put them in a pot with sufficient sugar; then make rice

flour and mix it with the almond milk and set it to cook, stirring

constantly; when it begins to thicken, add in dates and pinenuts and

cook them; when you see it thickening, take it off the fire and set it

on some warm cinders; then dish it up, putting sugar, rosewater and

cinnamon on top.

Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:57:24 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Re: Ginestada

And it came to pass on 10 Jul 00,, that Ann & Les Shelton wrote:

> I just bought Scully's new "Cuoco Napoletano" and have started to thumb

> through it.

That one's on my wish-list for Pennsic shopping.

> It contains a similar recipe to that from the "Libro de

> Guisados." Genestra is the Italian word for Spanish Broom. Scully dates

> the "Cuco Napoletano" to mid-15th cen., so this recipe is theoretically

> "older" than the "Libro de Guisados" version, but they're pretty similar.

The oldest version I've found is the one in the _Libre de Sent Sovi_,

which is believed to be early 14th century.

> It shows there was a flow of cooking information across countries.

There is *so* much overlap between the Catalan/Spanish/Italian

cuisines...

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:00:13 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - My First Feast as Head Cook

> Grain dish, "cheap and filling" - Last year's barley pottage was

> horrible and nobody ate it. I'm thinking Frumenty with cracked wheat.

> Any other suggestions?

Another suggestion, rice pudding. Platina has a good recipe. And the one

I've prepared for this weekend is:

Rice Puddings. Take halfe a pound of Rice, and steep it in new Milk a whole

night, and in the morning drain it, and let the Milk drop away, and take a

quart of the best, sweetest, and thickest Cream, and put the Rice into it,

and boyl it a little. Then set it to cool an hour or two, and after put in

the yolkes of half a dozen Eggs, a little Pepper, Cloves, Mace, Currants,

Dates, Sugar and Salt, and having mixt them well together, put in a great

store of Beef suet well beaten, and small shred, and so put it into the

farms, and boyl them as before shewed, and serve them after a day old.

Gervase Markham

The English Hous-wife, 1615

1 cup rice

3 cups milk

1 cup cream

3 egg yolks

1/8 teaspoon pepper

1/8 teaspoon cloves

1/8 teaspoon mace

1/4 teaspoon salt

1/2 cup sugar (brown or white)

1/4 cup currants (raisins)

1/4 cup chopped dates

3 Tablespoons minced suet

Put the rice and milk in a pan. Bring to a gentle boil. Cover pan. Reduce

heat and allow to simmer until rice is soft (about 30 minutes) and the milk

is absorbed.

Drain off any excess milk.

Add the cream. Bring to a low boil. Reduce heat. Simmer for 3 to 5

minutes. Cover and remove from heat.

While the cream is absorbed and the rice cools, mix the remaining

ingredients together in a bowl.

Stir the mixed ingredients into the rice. Cook over low heat for about 5

minutes, until the sugar is dissolved and thoroughly blended into the rice.

Remove to a bowl. Serve hot or cold.

Notes: The overnight soaking of the rice in the milk appears to be for the

purpose of softening older grain, which will not cook up immediately.

Markham's instructions are to put the rice pudding into molds and serve it a

day old, presumably to allow the flavors to meld. The dish was probably

eaten cold.

> Anahita al-shazhiyya

Bonne chance

Bear

Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:02:19 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: SC - Addendum on Rice Pudding

When I posted Gervase Markham's recipe for Rice Pudding, which I used in the

Protectorate Feast, I translated "farms" as "molds" in keeping with the

sources I was using. I have since obtained a copy of The English Housewife

editted by Michael Best.

In this edition, Best translates "farms" or "farmes" as being the cleaned

intestines used as sausage casings. In the context of the other pudding

recipes in the book, Best's definition appears to be correct. He also

provides a note that this particular definition is not found in the OED.

Bear

Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:48:36 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Addendum on Rice Pudding

> Forgive me Bear, I don't have your recipe here in front of me, but are you

> saying the rice pudding should be stuffed into casings? It seems a bit odd

> to me but perhaps it would be an easiy alternative in the steaming or it and

> handleing of it. I wonder if if would change the flavor muchly.

> Olwen

As near as I can tell from Best's comments and the surrounding recipes,

Markham is instructing the reader to use sausage casings to hold the rice

pudding. It also explains the second boil, which would help set the pudding

and might further sterilize it. This should work since the pudding is meant

to be served only a day old.

One of these days when I have nothing better to do. I'll try the recipe in

sausage casings.

Bear

Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 19:23:55 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Addendum on Rice Pudding

Olwen the Odd wrote:

> >In this edition, Best translates "farms" or "farmes" as being the cleaned

> >intestines used as sausage casings. In the context of the other pudding

> >recipes in the book, Best's definition appears to be correct. He also

> >provides a note that this particular definition is not found in the OED.

> >

> >Bear

> Forgive me Bear, I don't have your recipe here in front of me, but are you

> saying the rice pudding should be stuffed into casings? It seems a bit odd

> to me but perhaps it would be an easiy alternative in the steaming or it and

> handleing of it. I wonder if if would change the flavor muchly.

> Olwen

Yes, it probably does go into casings. Other recipes from Markham which

are pretty clearly for sausages (one, IIRC, for "links" which speaks of

stuffing the minced meat, fat and spices into "tharmes" and tying them

off into links) are written in a pretty similar way. As for the flavor,

this is just another white pudding variant, and the casings don't add

to, or detract much from the flavor. You can eat it in the casing, like

a sausage, or peel off the casing and reheat the pudding without it,

like most other white puddings.

Adamantius

Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 08:16:53 +0200

From: Volker Bach <bachv at paganet.de>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Meat and not potatoes feast

Terri Spencer schrieb:

> I recently found out that an event bid we had not expected to get for a

> Kingdom level fighter's collegium in November is now the leading

> contender. I'm feast cook, and haven't really given it much thought

> because I didn't think it was going to happen. There isn't really a

> theme, just fighting, strategy, fighting, tactics, more fighting, with

> a "fighters feast". I'd like to keep it fairly simple, since the

> kitchen at the planned site is a bit limited. So far the only dishes

> I've settled on are roast/grilled pork with a variety of sauces, and

> something with yams (not potatoes). So I'm hitting the cookbooks, and

> thought I'd ask our world-wide cooks group for favorite sure-fire feast

> recipes to satisfy a horde of hungry fighters. What do you suggest?

A (very substantial) dessert I had good success

with after the battles at Horseradish War was

'Nussmus' (nut pudding), from the 14th century

German 'buoch von gouter spis' ('book of good

food'). Basically, to serve four to six people you

take

- 150 grammes (1/3 lb) ground hazelnuts (or

shelled almonds, if you want it to look fancy)

- 1/2 liter (2 cups) milk

- 75 g (3 oz) sugar or honey (I go with brown cane

sugar for good taste and because it's period, but

I'm guessing people also used honey).

- 50 g wheat or rice starch (cornstarch will work,

of course, but...)

- 1 soft bun (milk bun, no raisins)

- 20 g butter (about 1 tblsp)

- 2-3 egg yolks

- 1 saffron thread

mix all the dry ingredients (except the saffron)

and soak the bun in the milk until it can be

pulled apart easily. Then you mix the milk and

soaked bun into the dry ingredients thoroughly,

add the saffron, and bring the whole mush to a

gentle boil while stirring (stirring,

stirring...). Take off the heat, stir in the egg

yolks and butter and briefly bring to the boil

again, then pour into a bowel and let cool. This

'pudding' will not keep its shape, but it is quite

delicious and very rich and filling, just the

thing for hungry fighters. The recipe can easily

be doubled and tripled, though I have not tried

any larger quantities than that. I serve it either

with fresh tart cherries (these days you mostly

get Chateau Morel, which are fine, though strictly

speaking OOP) or, if I have the time, I prepare a

cherry sauce out of tart cherries (tinned or

fresh), honey, nutmeg and cinnamon thickened with

fresh breadcrumbs (this one is actually supposed

to go with meat, but is quite delicious with nut

gruel).

Giano

From: Devra at aol.com

Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:50:14 EST

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: rice pudding & marrow

Opps - it was grated beef suet they called for--sorry. But here's the recipe

anyway.

From To The Queen's Taste

Rice Pudding

Take halfe a pound of Rice, and steep it in new Milk a whole night, and in

the morning drain it, and let the milk drop away, and take a quart of the

best, sweetest, and thickest Cream, and put the Rice into it, and boyl it a

little. Then set it to cool an hour or two, and after put in the yolkes of

half a dozen Eggs, a little Pepper, Cloves, mace, Currants, Dates, Sugar, and

Salt, and having mixt them well together, put in great store of Beef suet

well beaten, and small shred, and so put it into the frams, and boyl them as

well before shewed, and serve them after a day old.

Gervase Markham, The English Hous-wife

1/2 C white rice

3 C milk

1 C heavy cream

2 egg yolks

1/2 C brown sugar

generous 1/8 t salt

1/8 t white pepper

1/8 t cloves

1/8 t mace

1/4 C currants

1/4 C pitted, minced dates

2 T butter or grated suet

1. Combine rice and milk in a heavy enameled pot. Bring to a gentle boil.

Cover pot. Reduce heat and simmer about 30 minutes or until rice is soft.

Drain off excess milk if you wish.

2. Add cream and bring to a boil. Reduce heat and simmer for 2-3 minutes.

Remove from heat.

3. In a bowl, combine remaining ingredients and blend thoroughly.

4. Add mixture to rice and stir to distribute evenly.

5. Cover and cook for 5 minutes over LOW heat.

6. Serve warm or chilled. Serves 6 (HA)

I might decrease the sugar and increase the spices a touch now that I'm older

and my taste is not as sharp as it used to be... Soak the currants in a

little warm water if they're too hard and dry...

Devra Langsam

www.poisonpenpress.com

devra at aol.com

Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:07:18 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: rice pudding & marrow

Devra at aol.com wrote:

> Opps - it was grated beef suet they called for--sorry. But here's the recipe

> anyway.

> From To The Queen's Taste

> Rice Pudding

> Take halfe a pound of Rice, and steep it in new Milk a whole night, and in

> the morning drain it, and let the milk drop away, and take a quart of the

> best, sweetest, and thickest Cream, and put the Rice into it, and boyl it a

> little. Then set it to cool an hour or two, and after put in the yolkes of

> half a dozen Eggs, a little Pepper, Cloves, mace, Currants, Dates, Sugar, and

> Salt, and having mixt them well together, put in great store of Beef suet

> well beaten, and small shred, and so put it into the frams, and boyl them as

> well before shewed, and serve them after a day old.

> Gervase Markham, The English Hous-wife

<snip>

> I might decrease the sugar and increase the spices a touch now that I'm older

> and my taste is not as sharp as it used to be... Soak the currants in a

> little warm water if they're too hard and dry...

> Devra

So, do you think Lorna Sass has missed the fact that these are supposed

to be white-pudding-type sausages, or just figured it would be easier to

handle this way? For whatever reason, she seems to have shifted the

ingredients and method away from a white-pudding recipe toward a more

standard dessert-type rice pudding recipe. Which is not to say it

wouldn't be good that way... .

Adamantius

Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:37:06 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: rice pudding & marrow

Craig Jones. wrote:

> What leads you to believe it is a sausage recipe, the only thing that

> intimates that in the recipe is this line: "and so put it into the

> frams, and boyl them as well before shewed, and serve them after a day

> old". I would assume that "frams" would be translated as frame so I'm

> assuming a ramekin, placing the rice/spice/cream/suet goo in the

> ramekin and boiling it until it sets.

> Maybe my brain is fried and I'm not understanding something... Where

> does the sausage thing come from? Please educate me Obi Wan

> Adamantius...

Reach out with your feelings, Drakey. Use the Source!

Markham has about ten assorted sausage and pud recipes, overall,

including a link sausage recipe which makes it pretty clear that farmes

are cleaned intestines used as casings. Digby and Plat call them

tharmes, IIRC. I assume there's somebody's regional dialect involved in

the shift. Unless false teeth are involved.

Anyway, there are a couple of these recipe which describe in more detail

how you clean and fill the casings, and then some recipes which gloss

over the process. This is one of them, "as before shewed".

Also the part about serving them after a day old is a bit of a

give-away, although it's an easy one to miss if you haven't made

sausages before. Suffice it to say it's a more common instruction in s

sausage recipe than in a dessert recipe.

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org, sca-cooks <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: rice pudding & marrow

From: Kirrily Robert <skud at infotrope.net>

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:25:47 -0500

>>So, do you think Lorna Sass has missed the fact that these are supposed

>>to be white-pudding-type sausages, or just figured it would be easier to

>>handle this way? For whatever reason, she seems to have shifted the

>>ingredients and method away from a white-pudding recipe toward a more

>>standard dessert-type rice pudding recipe. Which is not to say it

>>wouldn't be good that way... .

>What leads you to believe it is a sausage recipe, the only thing that

>intimates that in the recipe is this line: "and so put it into the

>frams, and boyl them as well before shewed, and serve them after a day

>old". I would assume that "frams" would be translated as frame so I'm

>assuming a ramekin, placing the rice/spice/cream/suet goo in the

>ramekin and boiling it until it sets.

Oh. I just went and looked at the recipes and realised that I'd gotten

all confused. This isn't the recipe I was thinking of. The one I was

thinking of is explicit about putting it in a dish:

A white-pot

Take the best and sweetest Cream and boyl it with good store of Sugar and

Cinnamon, & a little Rose water, then take it from the fire, and put it into

clean pick'd Rice , but not so much as to make it thick, and let it steep

therein till it be cold, then put in the yelks of six Eggs, and two Whites,

Currants, Cinnamon Sugar, and Rose-water, and Salt, then put it into a pan

or pot as thin as it were a Custard, and so bake it, and serve it in the

pot it is baked in, triming the top with Sugar or Comfeits.

Mmmm, baked custardy ricey curranty goodness.

Katherine

Lady Katherine Robillard (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)

Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org, sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: rice pudding & marrow

From: Kirrily Robert <skud at infotrope.net>

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:21:00 -0500

In lists.sca.sca-cooks, you wrote:

>Opps - it was grated beef suet they called for--sorry. But here's the recipe

>anyway.

> From To The Queen's Taste

> Rice Pudding

>Take halfe a pound of Rice, and steep it in new Milk a whole night, and in

>the morning drain it, and let the milk drop away, and take a quart of the

>best, sweetest, and thickest Cream, and put the Rice into it, and boyl it a

>little. Then set it to cool an hour or two, and after put in the yolkes of

>half a dozen Eggs, a little Pepper, Cloves, mace, Currants, Dates, Sugar, and

>Salt, and having mixt them well together, put in great store of Beef suet

>well beaten, and small shred, and so put it into the frams, and boyl them as

>well before shewed, and serve them after a day old.

> Gervase Markham, The English Hous-wife

The English Housewife is webbed at http://infotrope.net/sca/cooking/ if

anyone wants any more from this source. Lots of good recipes, though

slightly out of period (1615). However, the just-pre-1600 cookbooks

I've been working with lately don't read much differently, and I don't

think an awful lot changed in those 20 years. I'm intending to make the

abovementioned rice pudding for an upcoming dinner party and/or potluck.

Lady Katherine Robillard (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)

Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere

Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:59:01 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: rice pudding & marrow

Seton1355 at aol.com wrote:

> Would a medieval / Renaissance white pudding have half a cup of sugar? and I

> am confused about the suasage bit in this recipe. Where would that tie in?

> Phillipa

Basically, the original recipe says to soak the rice in milk overnight (I'm working from memory, so bear with me), drain it, cook it in cream until mostly done, add eggs, I STR some dried fruit being added, but I could be wrong, and some grated suet. Oh, and sugar and probably other flavorings, spices, etc. Then you put your mixture into the farmes, a term which Markham uses several times in a string of recipes, all for sausages, including ordinary pork sausages. Kenelm Digby, writing, oh, maybe 50 years after Markham was published, and Hugh Plat, roughly contemporary to Markham, use the term too. "Tharmes" appears in one of these sources, I forget which one, as a variant. In each case they appear to be a reference to cleaned gut used for sausage casings. Some of the recipes talk of how long to cut your farmes, how to stuff them and tie them off, etc. It becomes far more clear if you look at the whole string of recipes in the original source, instead of just the one used for

"To The Queen's Taste". Since the recipe says, "as was shown previously", or words to that effect, it helps to know what was shown previously. ;-)

Adamantius, Context King

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: rice pudding & marrow

Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:37:14 -0600

During the Elizabethan period, much of England's sugar came out of Egypt and

the Levant where the price was dropping for the trade into Europe due to

Spanish and Portuguese imports from the Canaries, Azores, and West Africa.

The Caribbean trade was just beginning. Elizabethan cooking is noted for

using sugar extensively.

In my adaptation of Markham's recipe, I used 1/2 cup sugar to 1 cup of

uncooked rice (which weighed in at 8 ounces, 1/2 pound under Elizabethan

measure). I think the 1/2 cup is a good bet.

Rather than soak the rice overnight in milk, I partially cooked it in the

milk to accelerate the process, drained it and finished the cooking in

cream.

Bear

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:03:50 +0200

From: Finne Boonen <hennar at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] coconut milk and rice milk

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

not sure whether it is useful, but take a look at this:

http://www.medievalcookery.com/recipes/ryspot.html

several rice pudding recipes, I also have a book at home claiming that

origin of the ducht ricepudding (rice boiled in milk with

safron/canelle) is mideastern, (btw, this ricepudding is ricepudding

is probably eaten in the low countries, at least since the 13th

century, as it is appearing in paintings from that period.

Finne

Date: Tue 29 Jun 2004 13:19:18 -0400

From: "Barbara Benson" <vox8 at mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] period rice pudding

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Stefan> Any ideas on how to dress it up some for a pot luck or feast dish?

> Sprinkle slivered almonds on the recipes calling for almond milk? Of

> course any rice pudding with saffron in it would have a gold or yellow

> tinge or color.

I have been doing a good bit or research on period garnishing and have some

suggestions. First off, of the recipes that are referenced one has

garnishing instructions:

Source [Curye on Inglish, Constance B. Hieatt & Sharon Butler (eds.)]:129.

Ryse of fische daye. Blaunche almaundes & grynde hem, & drawe hem vp wyt

watur. Wesche þi ryse clene, & do þerto sugur roche and salt: let hyt be

stondyng. Frye almaundes browne, & floriche hyt þerwyt, or wyt sugur.

...Fry almonds brown, & flourishit therewith or white sugar.

This is pretty much in line with what I was going to suggest. You can rarely

go wrong with putting sugar on top, I would suggest getting some fairly

coarse sugar if you are going to have a white pudding or a very white sugar

(put regular sugar in the food processor and make your own powdered sugar)

if you are going the saffron direction. And whole toasted almonds.

Based on several other recipes which contain both rice and almond milk you

could also get away with a sprinklng of pomegrante seeds. I would cover the

top of the pudding with sugar and then arrange the almonds around the edges

and sprinkle the pomegrante seeds all over. It would be lovely. And comfits

would do nicely also.

Here are some examples with various instructions:

Libro di cucina/ Libro per cuoco:

V. Blancmange. ...When the dish is cooked pour into a bowl to serve. Dress

the dish with rosewater, sugar, the reserved almonds that have been fried

and cloves. This dish should be very white like snow nd potent with

spices.

Markham

145 A Whitepot.

Take the best and sweetest cream, and boil it with a good store of sugar,

and cinnamon, and a little rose-water, then take it from the fire and put

into it clean picked rice, but not so much as to make it thick, and let it

steep therin till it be cold; then put in the yolks of six eggs, and two

whites, currants, sugar, cinnamon, and rose -water, and salt, then put it

into a pan, or pot, as thick as if it were custard; and so bake it and serve

it in the pot it is baked in, trimming the top with sugar or comfits.

Platina

41. Blancmange ... When it has cooked, put in three ounces of rose water,

and pit it on the table either in the dishes where the meat is or

separately, but in smaller dishes. If you decie to pour it over the capons

so it may seem more elegant, sprinkle with pomegranate seeds on top.

--Serena da Riva

Date: Tu, 29 Jun 2004 19:53:04 -0400

From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Period Rice Pudding

To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Stefan asked:

> Any ideas on how to dress it up some for a pot luck or feast dish?

> Sprinkle slivered almonds on the recipes calling for almond milk? Of

> course any rice pudding with saffron in it would have a gold or yellow

> tinge or color

Arrange pomegranate seeds on it in a pattern, or just scattered over the

top. Pomegranate seeds were a frequent garnish for medieval foods.

Alys Katharine

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:58:23 EDT

From: MILADYMANN at aol.com

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: rice pudding

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Stefan... you might add sprinkles of cinnamon and cardamon powder to

fancy it up... I find these often on vanilla puddings.

Aolin Kendall

Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:56:45 -0800 (PST)

From: Samrah <auntie_samrah at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] rice porridge/rice pudding

To: Coks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I haven't done much rice pudding, but I do make stuffed grapeleaves.

Remember to get the short grained rice or at least medium grained rice.

It is much stickier and appropriate for puddings, porridges, and

stuffings than the long grained stuff which is better for pilaffs.

Cheaper, too.

Samrah

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:51:37 -0500

From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] rice porridge/rice pudding

To: Finne Boonen <hennar at gmail.com>, Cooks within the SCA

<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Nov 21, 2004, at 7:40 PM, Finne Boonen wrote:

> euhm, really stupid question here, but what's the difference between

> rice pudding and rice porridge, (or even between pudding and porridge

> in general)

> (Btw, ppl here put saffron in there rice pudding/porridge)

Most of the period recipes for "rice pudding" I've seen seem to be

thinner than a modern pudding or porridge. My version of "pottage of

rice" is at the following site:

http://www.medievalcookery.com/recipes/ryspot.html

Adding saffron to these dishes is actually very period for much or

Europe (seems to be more common than not). Very curiously, for every

variant I've come across for the modern Indian dish called "payasam",

I've found a corresponding variant from medieval England, France, or

Italy.

- Doc

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers)

Pasciunt, mugiunt, confidiunt.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:29:10 -0500

From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] rice porridge/rice pudding

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Most of the period recipes for "rice pudding" I've seen seem to be

> thinner than a modern pudding or porridge. My version of "pottage of

> rice" is at the following site:

Ok, that's wierd. The period and modern rice puddings I've had were

about the same consistency, about the thickness of tapioca pudding or

similar thick 'pudding' in the American sense... but modern porridge is

generally less thick than that.

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:29:06 -0500

From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] rice porridge/rice pudding

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Nov 22, 2004, at 4:29 PM, Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise wrote:

>> Most of the period recipes for "rice pudding" I've seen seem to be

>> thinner than a modern pudding or porridge. My version of "pottage of

>> rice" is at the following site:

> Ok, that's wierd. The period and modern rice puddings I've had were

> about the same consistency, about the thickness of tapioca pudding or

> similar thick 'pudding' in the American sense... but modern porridge is

> generally less thick than that.

Hmm... Perhaps this is due to my own interpretation of the period

recipes. Alternately the interpretations of period rice puddings

you've had may have been influenced by modern rice pudding.

A quick overview of "rice pudding" recipes:

Forme of Cury / Ryse Of Flesh - rice cooked in broth, add almond milk and saffron

http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi-bin/display.pl?foc:9

Forme of Cury / RYS MOYLE - ground rice and almond milk, add sugar and boil.

http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi-bin/display.pl?foc:258

Forme of Cury / POTAGE OF RYS - cooked rice, add almond milk and saffron.

http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi-bin/display.pl?foc:261

Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin / Take a quarter pound of rice -

rice cooked in cream, add almonds and sugar and bake

http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi-bin/display.pl?wes:105

Liber cure cocorum / Ryse - ground rice and almond milk, strained, add sugar and boil

http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi-bin/display.pl?lcc:29

Libro di cucina/ Libro per cuoco / Rice in a good manner - rice cooked in water, add almond milk and simmer, add sugar "This dish should be white and very sparing and when it is cooked powder in the serving the sugar over." [not sure what they mean by "very sparing"]

http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi-bin/display.pl?lib:61

A new booke of Cookerie (1615) / A Ryce Pudding - rice boiled in milk

and drained, add suet, currants, eggs, and spices, stuff into "guts"

and boil. [just out of period, this sounds more like a modern English

pudding]

http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi-bin/display.pl?nboc:71

Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery-Books / Rys - boiled rice, add almond

milk, sugar, and honey.

http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi-bin/display.pl?tfccb:86

Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery-Books / Rys moilles - ground rice and

almond milk, boil and add sugar.

http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi-bin/display.pl?tfccb:474

Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery-Books / Potage of ris - boiled rice and

almond milk, boil and add saffron.

http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi-bin/display.pl?tfccb:483

Le Viandier de Taillevent / Decorated rice - rice boiled in milk, add

saffron and stock.

http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi-bin/display.pl?via:66

Curye on Inglish [Constance B. Hieatt & Sharon Butler (eds.)] / Ryse of

fische daye - rice in almond milk, add sugar. "let hyt be stondyng"

[Obviously this one's supposed to be thick].

The Neapolitan Recipe Collection [Terence Scully (trans.)] / Rice in

Almond Milk - cooked rice, add almond milk and sugar.

So that's one source that specifies the final product to be thick.

Anyone have any others?

- Doc

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers)

Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:45:22 +1200

From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] rice pudding

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Huette von Ahrens wrote:

> Are we talking an actual sweet rice pudding here? Or are we talking

> blancmange?

> Because I am having a hard time imagining an sweet rice pudding served hot ...

Rice pudding is delicious hot... it's OK cold, but hot is much nicer.

Adele de Maisieres

Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:03:25 -0400

From: <kingstaste at mindspring.com>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] rice pudding

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Rice pudding is delicious hot... it's OK cold, but hot is much nicer.

Adele de Maisieres

<<<

I agree, hot is much nicer, especially on cold days, which we seem to be in

short supply of just now.

By way of answering your earlier comment about different ways to make rice

pudding, I just happen to have The Joy of Cooking right next to my computer.

There are two methods for making rice pudding in it. The first one called

"Creamy Rice Pudding" uses uncooked rice, milk and salt on top of a double

boiler, with butter, vanilla, lemon rind, and sugar stirred in after it is

cooked but while still hot. Served as a pudding, hot or cold. The other

one called simply "Rice Pudding" is a method that starts with preheating an

oven to 350, then having precooked rice ready, while you make a custard of

milk, salt, sugar, butter, vanilla, eggs, then adding lemon rind, lemon

juice and the option of raisins or dates. Combine the wet ingredients with

the rice, pour into a buttered baking dish and bake for 50 minutes or so.

So yup, two different ideas about how to make rice pudding.

Christianna

who usually ends up using leftover Chinese take-out rice as the basis

for rice pudding

Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:10:15 +1200

From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] rice pudding

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I think you and I have very different ideas of how to make rice

pudding... I would have said mix rice and milk in the ratio of 1:3 or

1: 3.5 (by volume). Add sugar and spice. Bake 'til done.

> Bake it in the oven. For large amounts of grains, baking is the best way to

> go. You can prepare the rice in a large baking pan first, using the

> standard 2 parts liquid to one part grain. Then, once the rice is cooked,

> make up your custard with or without eggs, with milk or almond milk, the

> seasonings like cinnamon, ginger, nutmeg, etc., and raisins if you like.

> Cook the eggs and milk in a pot first, then pour it over your rice and mix

> all ingredients well. Then, back into the oven to finish it off.

Adele de Maisieres

Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:21:12 -0400

From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] rice pudding

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Are we talking an actual sweet rice pudding here? Or are we talking

> blancmange?

> Because I am having a hard time imagining an sweet rice pudding served

> hot ...

I've done it, it's quite good.

However... the recipe I used called for stirring in the (almond) milk a

little at a time, which worked well but doesn't lend itself to the

various baking/slow cooking scenarios. I ended up making one batch of

about 3 gallons for a breakfast serving 200-400, and I really should

have split it into 2 batches.

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:10:48 EDT

From: Devra at aol.com

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: rice pudding hot

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

There's a very nice recipe in 'To the King's Taste' (or 'To the Queen's

Taste') - too lazy to go into the other room & look - which is derived (fairly

loosely) from one for white puddings... Uses some black pepper in the flavorings,

and is terrific hot. The first time I made it, 3 friends and I sat on the

outside steps and tasted it until it was all gone... The warmth brings out the

flavors of the seasoning.

Devra

Devra Langsam

www.poisonpenpress.com

Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 12:25:57 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Puddings was sausages

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

To all those that were interested in sausages and stuffing them

into casings and such... Something new is up on Ivan Day's site--

Puddings--

http://www.historicfood.com/English%20Puddings.htm

If you go down the page you will see large pictures of two

items being one a funnel and one a forcer.

These exact items are what we used when we made the rice puddings in forms

recipe from Markham. They are actually quite good, esp. with cream.

Johnnae

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 13:21:22 -0600 (CST)

From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] a boiled pudding question

So I am working on the Ryce Pudding recipe from John Murrell's A new booke

of Cookerie and I have a boiled pudding question:

A Ryce Pudding.

STeep it in faire water all night:

then boyle it in new Milke, and

draine out the Milke through a Cullinder:

mince beefe Suit handsomely, but

not too small, and put it into the Rice,

and parboyld Currins, yolkes of new

layd Egges, Nutmeg, Sinamon, Sugar,

and Barberryes: mingle all together:

wash your scoured guttes, and

stuffe them with the aforesaid pulp:

parboyle them, and let them coole.

I don't at the moment have sausage casings. Can I substitute a cloth or a

mold instead?

Margaret FitzWilliam