honey-msg - 1/21/08 Period use of honey. Honey sources. NOTE: See also the files: sugar-msg, bees-msg, mead-msg, meadery-list-msg, candy-msg, desserts-msg, Sugarplums-art, Roses-a-Sugar-art, bees-Markham-art, Beekeeping-AS-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Philip E Cutone <flip+ at andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:51:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC - Honey vrs sugar "Sue Wensel" <swensel at brandegee.lm.com> writes: > While honey is a popular SCA-alternate for sugar in recipes, I am > beginning to doubt how much it really was used in period recipes. i sound like i'm beating a dead horse, "In the Domestroi...." nearly every recipe which calls for sweetening, specifies honey. Indeed, i cannot find a place where sugar is used at all! I cannot say if this was the translator's (Carolyn Pouncy) choice, or original. I imagine that it would depend on region. I don't know the specifics for sugar cane, but it seems as though it is mostly grown in humid zone 8 or warmer. (tropical climate) here is what the online encyclopedia has to say about it: > It is believed that sugarcane culture began in New Guinea and > then gradually spread throughout the South Pacific, Southeast > Asia, and India. Thereafter it spread to China and to the > ancient Arab world, but sugar remained a scarce luxury in Europe. > In the 15th and 16th centuries, however, European explorers and > colonizers of the Caribbean and South American regions brought > sugarcane cuttings with them, and once planted, the cuttings > thrived in the warm, moist climate and productive soil. By the > year 1600, sugar production in the subtropical and tropical > Americas had become the world's largest and most lucrative > industry. In service, flip Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 16:21:12 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: SC - Sugar, onions... > From: Tara Sersen <ladycharissa at geocities.com> > > OK, I have some questions for everyone. The first is to settle a > discussion a friend and I had a few weeks ago. We were discussing the > ingredient sugar in period recipies. It occured to us that the first > time we can recall hearing about sugar cane is in the New World, > particularly in terms of rum production. Neither of us could think of > any period reference for molassas or rum. So, we figured that the sugar > being called for might be beet sugar. If we're right, then very late > period might have used cane sugar, but not earlier periods. Does anyone > know what is right? Very early period practice in Europe appears to indicate that honey was almost exclusively used for sweetening foods. Cane sugar was known, but rather rare in Europe, and would more or less have come under the heading of a pharmaceutical. Around the time of the first Crusade, the Crusaders returned to Europe with a taste for many of the foods that we now associate with medieval European cooking. As a result, things like sugar in varying states of processing began to appear in European markets. Still quite expensive, and used accordingly, through most of period. Sugar cane as a commercial product in its own right, and locally produced European sugar (in Cyprus, for instance), appear more or less on a very small scale in late period. One of the reasons things like molasses and rum don't seem to appear in period recipes is simply that the production of sugar was still being controlled by the people native to the areas where sugar cane grows. Molasses and rum used by Europeans are largely a function of Europeans actually growing and processing sugar, which is more or less a function of colonialism, which doesn't really occur within period. Beet sugar is the result of a process developed in the early 19th century, IIRC. Adamantius Crown Province of Ostgardr, East Kingdom Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 05:45:42 EDT From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Flavored honey Galengale or ginger honey UMMMMM done that.. wunnerful! First heard of Galengale honey from the writings of Hildegard of Bingen (sp?) so the technique was KNOWN in period.. of course, since we're talking about somebody who IMO described bacteria and the very (probable) form of the Universe in the 12th century... maybe I'm getting ahead of myself...<g>. Corwyn Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 00:27:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura C Minnick <lainie at gladstone.uoregon.edu> Subject: Re: SC - bewined honey? honey with anise? (fwd) Someone asked about the honey- and this was the reply. Have fun! 'Lainie - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 21:44:00 -0700 From: Vesta <vesta at internetcds.com> To: Laura C Minnick <lainie at gladstone.uoregon.edu> Subject: Re: SC - bewined honey? honey with anise? (fwd) Laura C Minnick wrote: > Domina Vesta Antonia Aurelia when asked about her Libum loaves > recipe, gave it. One of her comments was: > > I served it with bewined honey, and honey with anise. > > Anyone know what "bewined" honey is? Is this honey with anise, > honey that you soak anise seed? star anise? in for awhile? Or > something bought already flavored? Bewined honey: Honey with wine. One quart honey. Add 1 cup dry white wine. Mix 'til well blended. Serve. Honey with anise. One quart honey. 2 Tablespoons anise. Crush anise. Heat over low flame until honey smells strongly of anise. Serve. I pulled these combinations out of my.....ear. They have no basis in Apicius, other than being ingredients available to the needy Roman cook.... Domina Vesta Antonia Aurelia vesta at internetcds.com An Tir -- Summits -- Cavernsgate From: Norsefolk at egroups.com Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:23:26 EDT From: beiskaldi at aol.com Subject: Re: Mead flavors shetler at home.com writes: > Here is a website for a variety of flavored honeys > that you might enjoy as well. http://www.castlemark-honey.com/ FWIW, I know the owners of castlemark honey. The honeys are not 'flavored' per se, but rather made from various pollens, ie clover, alfalfa, wildflower, heather, sourwood (don't go ick till youve tried it) & various other plants. Good stuff, & decent prices. thyra Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:35:19 -0500 From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> To: "mk-cooks at midrealm.org" <mk-cooks at midrealm.org>, "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Honey reference source While looking for nougat recipes, I came across this interesting site on honey. http://www.fao.org/docrep/w0076e/w0076e00.htm It contains the text of an FAO document on honey products and contains modern recipes for Liquid honey, Creamed honey, Comb honey, Mead, Honey beer, Honey liqueurs, Honey spreads, Honey with fruits and nuts, Honey with pollen and propolis, Honey paste for dressing wounds, Sugar substitution, Fruit marmalade, Honey jelly, Syrups, Rose honey, Caramels, Nougat and torrone, Honey gums, Gingerbread and Marzipan. Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:03:15 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cioccolato di Modica To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Stefan li Rous wrote: > Gianotta asked: >> I'm engaged in a spirited, uh, debate with someone on another list >> about Sicilian gastronomy. In researching my rebuttal I came across >> mentions of chocolate made in Modica, Sicily. There, chocolate is made >> like the Aztecs did it; cacao beans ground against stone, mixed with >> sugar (of course the Aztecs would have used honey) > > But since the honey bee is a European import, any honey the Aztecs > would have used would have been from a different insect. Well, according to Sophie Coe in "America's First Cuisines", the Mayas actually created hives for the indigenous American bees. They are not the honey bees of Europe, but they do make honey. The book is eluding me for the moment... I can quote more when i locate it. Anahita Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:03:57 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: [Sca-cooks] Honey in Meso-America To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org OK, i found where the Sophie D. Coe book, "America's First Cuisines", was hiding... She notes, on p. 89 of the chapter titled "Aztec Ingredients" that Aztec warehouses received annually 2,200 pots of bee's honey. On p. 116, of the chapter "Aztec Cooks and Menus", Coe notes that in the writings of Sahagun are mentioned honey tamales, bee tamales, and (p. 117) tortillas made with honey. Hernandez mentions among the nixtamalized maize gruels, which were drunk as nourishing beverages, one with 1/10th part maguey syrup called nequatolli, and one with chili and honey called nechillatolli. An atolli of red amaranth rather than maize, with honey was hoauhatolli. In the chapter "The Maya and the Explorers", on pp. 125-126 "One thing the expedition of Francisco Hernandez de Cordoba noticed on the island of Cozumel, and later in Yucatan, may still be seen in those places today by the visitor. It was, and is, an excellent place for honey production. Today the honey is produced by the European honey bee (Apis mellifera) , but prior to its introduction there were plenty of indigenous bees (Melipona sp., Trigona sp.) to do the job. Bee yards with thousands of hives are described by early travelers. Hernandez de Cordoba was said to have seen many wooden hives and to have been brought calabashes full of white and excellent honey. Honey was one of the principal products of the country and along with locally produced cotton cloth was traded far and wide in Mesoamerica. Among the Maya it was used to sweeten some of the maize drinks, the posolli and atolli [i mentioned in a previous post], and to make an exceedingly important alcoholic ritual beverage, balche'. The fact that a good part of one of the four surviving Maya books, the Madrid Codex, is concerned with bees and beekeeping underscores their importance. "Was this honey used to make preserves or boiled sugar goods? We know that watery honey was cooked to make it more storeable, so that combinations like boiled honey and squash seeds or boiled honey and toasted maize might be pre-Columbian..." Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:15:47 -0400 From: "jehan.yves" <jehan.yves at signofthetiger.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Feast Challanges/Disaster for Stefan (really long) To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Honey usually weighs around 12 1/2 pounds per gallon (varies by variety, moisture content, purity) and there are 16 cups in a gallon, so 12 ozs. per cup is a reasonable number to work with. JehanYves > I found a website that says the weight of 1 cup of honey is > approximately 12 oz. If that is correct, than I would have needed 7 > of the 5lb jugs instead of the 3+ Serena was able to come up with on > site. Or... less than half of what she actually needed! > > Aoghann Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 05:03:55 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius.magister at verizon.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Playing with cheesecake... To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> On Apr 29, 2006, at 1:25 AM, randel lee wrote: > i am curious as to the ratio of honey as compared to a cup of sugar, You might look here for info... http://www.nhb.org/foodtech/sub.html Adamantius Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 14:24:32 -0500 From: LRA <LRA at olpdsl.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Diabetes and Honey - substitute or not? To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> I have found a fake honey. It tastes like the real stuff, looks like, cooks like, measures like and dissolves like the real thing. It is made by MARKET PANTRY and called Imitation Honey. I have been able to find the product at only Super Wal-Mart and Super Target stores (at least in my area, Tulsa, OK). And it is more expensive than real honey. The package says "sugar free, not a low calorie food". It has 0 grams of sugar, but is made with sugar alcohols. Some people have problems with sugar alcohols. I'm not a diabetic, but I try to stay on a low carb life-style. I'd be interested to find out if others have found other products of this nature. Lynn the Inquisitive Ysabeau wrote: > I've been asked/volunteered to prepare a dinner at a local non-feast event > for the crown and other visiting nobles. There isn't a kitchen on site so I > was looking at prepare ahead recipes. While it isn't necessarily period, > there is a great recipe for a lamb with honey and apricots tagine in the > latest Cooking Light magazine. Since our current crown has a North > African/Muslim Spain (not really sure which) persona, I thought I'd try a > tagine as one of the dishes. However, they also request a diabetic friendly > diet...so what do I do about honey? I don't think Splenda makes a good > substitute so any other ideas? How does honey fit into the diabetic diet? > Should I just try something else? > > Ysabeau From: Magister Galenus Ockhamnesis <galen at chirurgeon.org> Date: January 22, 2007 6:40:15 PM CST To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Honey for Brewers I have purchased some from <http://www.eBeeHoney.com>www.eBeeHoney.com. You can order the crystallized honey somewhat cheaper and it still works fine for brewing. Galen > I have mundane friend who brews mead and ale. > Currently he just buys 2 pound jars of honey from the grocery store. > Where are better locations or dealers to buy honey > in larger quantities? I'm in Elfsea, so someplace in > the Central region or on the Internet would be best. > Lady Hanna From: Pug Bainter <pug at pug.net> Date: January 23, 2007 6:41:10 AM CST To: "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Honey for Brewers As others have responded publicly since this is something many are interested in, I'm going to do the same. Bulk honey is actually fairly easy to come by if you know where to look. Many home brew supply stores carry it. Sam's and Costo usually have the ~4-5 lb containers at a reasonable price. I'm not sure what specialty stores you have around you, but in Austin we can pick up bulk honey, including by the 5 gallon bucket if you ask, at places like Sun Harvest, Wholefoods and Central Market. As someone pointed out, www.ebeehoney.com has decent prices at $135 per 5 gallon bucket plus $36 for shipping. That is about $2.35 a pound. While doing a Google search (which is typically what I do when comparing pricing) I found the following as well: http://www.alhoney.com/prod01.htm Jackson Apiaries - $99 per 5 gallon plus $43 in shipping (possibly better if more than one 5 gallon order) http://www.dutchgoldhoney.com Dutch Gold Honey - $76 to $90 per 5 gallon but they don't list their shipping & handling on line I've bought from Good Flow Honey before with very good pricing, but they are local to me so they delivered it straight to my house without shipping costs. http://www.goodflowhoney.com Being in Elfsea, you might want to try Burleson's in Waxahachie to see if they have bulk you can pick up. They even are listed as selling it by the tanker, but at 3750 gallons, I think that a little much for most people. http://www.burlesons-honey.com If you are looking specifically at local sources, you can try the National Honey Board locator service at: http://www.honeylocator.com/ I hope that helps folks. Ciao, Pug From: Alden Drake <alden_drake at sbcglobal.net> Date: January 30, 2007 12:58:29 PM CST To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: [Ansteorra] Dutch Gold Honey I've had pretty good results from ordering from Dutch Gold Honey. I particularly like their Buckwheat Honey. The last time I ordered them, they gave me contact information for a distributor West of the Mississippi - they have an extra charge on their product for shipping West of the Mississippi. It took me a while to find the contact info since my office recently relocated, but here it is: Clint Walker Rogers, TX 254-983-2337 I haven't ordered from him yet to confirm prices, but thought y'all might appreciate a honey source in TX. :) Cheers, Alden Drake <<< Egads! 2lb and 5 lb bottles. Forget that. I get mine from Dutch Gold Honey. They sell in bulk. I just got 63 lbs of orange blossom honey for $95, including shipping. They're very reasonable on shipping, they just use UPS. The honey stays under the 70lb price increase. They also have a really nice selection, and they're FAST. Got mine in two days. However, make sure you follow up internet orders with a phone call. My last order got stuck on their server, and after a few weeks of not getting my stuff, I called them and found out the problem. Of course, you could just call and order over the phone. The staff are quite friendly and helpful. Faelan >>> <the end> Edited by Mark S. Harris honey-msg Page 8 of 8