baklava-msg - 11/23/16

Period Baklava-like layered pastries.

NOTE: See also the files: pastries-msg, leavening-msg, flour-msg, desserts-msg, pies-msg, honey-msg, sugar-msg, pancakes-msg.

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Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:55:21 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - desserts  (was re: key lime pie and re: ladies and gentles)

>I will be happy to post my version of Countess Talitha's Individual
>Hand-Rolled Baklava on two conditions:  One, if someone can affirm that
>baklava is period; and Two, if Talitha doesn't mind...   ;-)

I have never been able to find any evidence of baklava in period Islamic
cookbooks. There are many layered things sort of like filo, there are nuts,
there are pastries with melted butter, but so far as I can tell nothing
that really corresponds to the modern baklava.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:06:04 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - filo pastry

At 3:48 PM +0000 2/17/98, RMcGrath at dca.gov.au wrote:
>Is filo pastry period?

Not so far as I know. There is a 13th c. Andalusian recipe that gives a
pastry with lots of thin layers, however: Here is the recipe:

- --
Preparation of Musammana [Buttered] Which Is Muwarraqa [Leafy]
Andalusian p. A-60 - A-61

Take pure semolina or wheat flour and knead a stiff dough without yeast.
Moisten it little by little and don't stop kneading it until it relaxes and
is ready and is softened so that you can stretch a piece without severing
it. Then put it in a new frying pan on a moderate fire. When the pan has
heated, take a piece of the dough and roll it out thin on marble or a
board. Smear it with melted clarified butter or fresh butter liquified over
water. Then roll it up like a cloth until it becomes like a reed. Then
twist it and beat it with your palm until it becomes like a round thin
bread, and if you want, fold it over also. Then roll it out and beat it
with your palm a second time until it becomes round and thin. Then put it
in a heated frying pan after you have greased the frying pan with clarified
butter, and whenever the clarified butter dries out, moisten [with butter]
little by little, and turn it around until it binds, and then take it away
and make more until you finish the amount you need. Then pound them between
your palms and toss on butter and boiling honey. When it has cooled, dust
it with ground sugar and serve it.

2 c semolina flour      1/4 c clarified butter for frying       1/4 c
butter at the end
aprox 5/8 c water       1 T+ sugar      1/4 c honey at the end (or more)
1/4 c = 1/8 lb butter, melted

Stir the water into the flour, knead together, then gradually knead in the
rest of the water. Knead for about 5-10 minutes until you have a smooth,
elastic and slightly sticky dough that stretches instead of breaking when
you pull it a little. Divide in four equal parts. Roll out on a floured
board, or better floured marble, to at least 13"x15". Smear it with about 4
t melted butter. Roll it up. Twist it. Squeeze it together, flatten with
your hands to about a 5-6" diameter circle. If you wish, fold that in
quarters and flatten again to about a 5-6" circle. Melt about 1 T of
clarified butter in a frying pan and fry the dough about 8 minutes, turning
about every 1 1/2 to 2 minutes (shorter times towards the end). Repeat with
the other three, adding more clarified butter as needed. Melt 1/4 c butter,
heat 1/4 c honey. Beat the cooked circles between your hands to loosen the
layers, put in a bowl, pour the honey and butter over them, dust with
sugar, and serve.  If you are going to give it time to really soak, you
might use more butter and honey.

For regular flour, everything is the same except that you may need slightly
more water. You can substitute cooking oil for the clarified butter (which
withstands heat better than plain butter)  if necessary.

- ---
>I've heard conflicting answers, and wondered if filo pastry were only from
>the Middle East in period.

So far as I know, not even from the Middle East--the recipe above is the
closest I have come across, and not very close.

>And do I still get to play with baklava?

You get to do whatever you like--but you don't get to truthfully say that
you have good reason to believe it is period unless someone else has found
better evidence than we have.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:46:11 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - Khushkananaj (was: Ideal vs. practical)

At 1:27 AM -0600 3/24/99, Stefan li Rous wrote:
>I too, would be interested in finding out what khushkananaj is.

Period Islamic pastry with almonds, rosewater, and sugar. From the Miscellany:

Khushkananaj
al-Baghdadi p. 212/14

Take fine white flour, and with every ratl mix three uqiya of
sesame-oil[one part oil to four of flour], kneading into a firm paste.
Leave to rise; then make into long loaves. Put into the middle of each loaf
a suitable quantity of ground almonds and scented sugar mixed with rose
water, using half as much almonds as sugar. Press together as usual, bake
in the oven, remove.

2 c white +1 c whole wheat flour        12 oz = 1 1/2 c sugar
1/2 c sesame oil        1 T rose water
6 oz almonds =1 c before chopping       3/4 to 7/8 c cold water or
additional flour for rolling out dough  1/2 c water, 1/2 c sourdough starter

"Leave to rise" is a puzzle, since the recipe includes neither yeast nor
water. The recipe does not seem to work without water; perhaps the author
took it for granted that making a paste implied adding water. We originally
developed the recipe without leavening, but currently use sourdough, which
is our best guess at what the original intended (and also seems to work a
little better). The two versions are:

Without leavening: Mix the flour, stir in the oil. Sprinkle the water onto
the dough, stir in. Knead briefly together.

Sourdough: Mix the flour, stir in the oil. Mix the water and the sour dough
starter together. Add gradually to the flour/oil mixture, and knead briefly
together. Cover with a damp cloth and let rise about 8 hours in a warm
place, then knead a little more.

We also have two interpretations of how the loaves are made; they are:

Almost Baklava: Divide in four parts. Roll each one out to about 8"x16" on
a floured board. Grind almonds, combine with sugar and rose water. Spread
the mixture over the rolled out dough and roll up like a jelly roll,
sealing the ends and edges (use a wet finger if necessary). You may want to
roll out the dough in one place and roll it up in another, so as not to
have bits of nuts on the board you are trying to roll it out on. You can
vary how thin you roll the dough and how much filling you use over a
considerable range, to your own taste.

Long thin loaves: Divide the dough into six or eight parts, roll each out
to a long loaf (about 16"), flatten down the middle so that you can fill it
with the sugar and almond mixture, then seal it together over the filling.
You end up with a tube of dough with filling in the middle.

Bake at 350 degrees about 45-50 minutes.

Notes: At least some of the almonds should be only coarsely ground, for
texture. The sesame oil is the Middle Eastern version, which is almost
flavorless; you can get something similar at health food stores. Chinese
sesame oil, made from toasted sesame seeds, is very strongly flavored and
results in a nearly inedible pastry. We do not know what scented sugar
contained.

Elizabeth/Betty Cook


Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:28:20 -0500
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - Khushkananaj (was: Ideal vs. practical)

>Khushkananaj
>al-Baghdadi p. 212/14
>
>Take fine white flour, and with every ratl mix three uqiya of
>sesame-oil[one part oil to four of flour], kneading into a firm paste.
>Leave to rise; then make into long loaves. Put into the middle of each loaf
>a suitable quantity of ground almonds and scented sugar mixed with rose
>water, using half as much almonds as sugar. Press together as usual, bake
>in the oven, remove.
>
>2 c white +1 c whole wheat flour       12 oz = 1 1/2 c sugar
>1/2 c sesame oil       1 T rose water
>6 oz almonds =1 c before chopping      3/4 to 7/8 c cold water or
>additional flour for rolling out dough 1/2 c water, 1/2 c sourdough starter
>
>"Leave to rise" is a puzzle, since the recipe includes neither yeast nor
>water. The recipe does not seem to work without water; perhaps the author
>took it for granted that making a paste implied adding water. We originally
>developed the recipe without leavening, but currently use sourdough, which
>is our best guess at what the original intended (and also seems to work a
>little better). The two versions are:
><snip>

There is a footnote in A Baghdad Cookery Book for this recipe:
"Khushknanaj, From Persian khushk = dry, nan = bread."

Might this recipe also be interpreted to be making a long, *flat*,
cracker-like bread, filled with the almonds & scented sugar?

The bread recipes that follow this in the MS also do not call for water, soyour assumption seems valid. If you use *hot* water instead of cold water,this becomes a type of hot-water crust pastry.  I'm looking at the recipefor this in Mrs Beeton.  Her recipe requires a *rest* once the flour, fat,& liquid have been kneaded together.  The rest makes the dough stretchy &easier to work with. Could this be what your recipe wants us to do?The  recipes that follow this call for the bread to be made "into shapes,using an appropriate mould".  Any idea what these looked like? 

Cindy


Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:11:46 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Khushkananaj (was: Ideal vs. practical)

David Waines in his book "In a Caliph's Kitchen" presents on page 68 his
redaction of Khushknanaj from al-Baghdadi's manual.  his translation on page
69 is identical to that in His Grace's Miscellany.  His ingredient list is a
follows:

175g./6 oz. strong white flour
15g./1/2 oz yeast
50g/2 oz. ground almonds
1 teaspoon ground coriander
1 teaspoon ground cinnamon
1 tablespoon olive oil
2-3 tablespoons rosewater
3 tablespoons milk
1 teaspoon granulated sugar
40g/ 1 and 1/2 oz. granulated sugar
15g/ 1/2 oz chopped almonds
pinch of salt

His directions are as follows:

Sieve the flour in a bowl with the salt

Cream the yeast with the one teaspoon of sugar and a little water and add to
flour.  Add the tablespoon of olive oil.  Add sufficient tepid water so as
to mix dough to a firm consistency and knead on a floured board for 10
minutes.  Cover bowl and proof for 1.5 hours.

For stuffing mix together ground almonds, castor sugar, coriander and the
cinnamon.  When mixed bind mixture into a stiff paste by gradually adding
rosewater.

When dough has risen turn it out onto a floured board and knead for a couple
of minutes.  Cut dough into 10 equal portions and roll each into flat thin
ovals.  Take a tenth of the stuffing shape it into a pencil thick roll 1
inch shorter than the length of the dough ovals.  Place stuffing on dough,
wet edges with water and seal the stuffing in and shape into cylinder rolls.

Place rolls on greased sheet and bake in hot oven 230C/450F until browned.

While the rolls bake make glaze by melting  the granulated sugar into the
milk in a pot over low heat.  When mixed take off heat and add 1 tablespoon
of rose water.  When rolls are done brush with glaze and sprinkle each with
a little chopped almond.

All in all a nice book but now out of print.  I picked up my copy at Pennsic
about 10 years back.


Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:12:26 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Khushkananaj (was: Ideal vs. practical)

At 11:11 PM -0500 3/26/99, Daniel Phelps wrote:
>David Waines in his book "In a Caliph's Kitchen" presents on page 68 his
>redaction of Khushknanaj from al-Baghdadi's manual.  his translation on page
>69 is identical to that in His Grace's Miscellany.  His ingredient list is a
>follows:

>175g./6 oz. strong white flour
>15g./1/2 oz yeast
>50g/2 oz. ground almonds
>1 teaspoon ground coriander
>1 teaspoon ground cinnamon
>1 tablespoon olive oil

The original starts:

Take fine white flour, and with every ratl mix three uqiya of sesame-oil,
kneading into a firm paste.

The original recipe gives an explicit ratio, by weight, for flour to oil--4
to one (a ratl has 12 uqiya) and specifies what kind of oil to use. The
recipe you quote from Waines has a ratio of more than  12 to one, and
specifies a different kind of oil. So it looks as though the book is not to
be trusted--something I didn't know, not having noticed that he had that
recipe.

His glaze of melted sugar and milk correspond to nothing in the original.
It rather looks as though he is using a modern middle eastern recipe that
is vaguely similar to the medieval one, but that's only a guess.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:17:23 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Khushkananaj (was: Ideal vs. practical)

His Grace wrote:
>The original recipe gives an explicit ratio, by weight, for flour to oil--4
>to one (a ratl has 12 uqiya) and specifies what kind of oil to use. The
>recipe you quote from Waines has a ratio of more than  12 to one, and
>specifies a different kind of oil. So it looks as though the book is not to
>be trusted--something I didn't know, not having noticed that he had that
>recipe.
>
>His glaze of melted sugar and milk correspond to nothing in the original.
>It rather looks as though he is using a modern middle eastern recipe that
>is vaguely similar to the medieval one, but that's only a guess.

When  last I made khushknanaj  I used sesame oil but did not notice the
ratio difference.   I will correct the ratio in the future.  I did not glaze
it as Waines suggests but I did brush it with a egg glaze during the baking
process.  I made the dough in a brace of bread machines set on dough mode, 
if I remember correctly it was a production run of tasties for some small event.


Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 11:49:09 +1000
From: "Gwynydd of Culloden" <gwynydd_of_culloden at yahoo.com.au>
Subject: baklava recipe (was Re: SC - Help with Cooking period Italian food.)

From: Elisabetta
> I am invited to a feast at the Potrero war
> in May and was requested to bring baklava - is baklava period does anyone
> know?  Or is there something similar to baklava that *is* period?

Hi, I am sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you with this, but I
was waiting on a reply from Hrolf Hrolfsen about his baklava.   Here is his
response to my request for a recipe for it and also for documentation.  This
should help, although you will see that he is not saying that this recipe is
definitely period - simply that he believes there to be a good chance that
it does not stray far from the original (at least, that is how I read this
message.  I will get onto the people he mentioned and see if they can help.

"The recipe is easy.   As for documentation - someone else seems to have my
recipe books.  Try Min or Lorix as the most likely culprits.  In fact you
can easily document the existence of baklava by finding early collections of
Mullah Nasrudin stories (which date from the 13th century).  There are
several which involve baklava by name as it was his favourite dessert.  As
for the recipe, until I get my books back, I honestly cannot remember.   I
can say that this is one of the areas of the world where methods do not
change (with the exception of the tomato / tamarind swap and the ready
adoption of chilli - which was done in period) over the centuries.

Baklawa

500g fillo pastry (note 22 sheets) 1 1/2 cup melted sameh or unsalted butter
Nut filling
2 egg whites
1/2 cup castor sugar
2 cups coarsely ground walnuts
2 cups medium ground almonds
1 teaspoon rosewater

note that the nuts should be a bit under a level "scoop" when buying.  Be a
little generous with all your quantities when in doubt.

Atar Syrup
2 cups granulated sugar
1 1/2 cups water
1 teaspoon lemon juice
2 teaspoon rose water

Stack 7-8 sheets fillo pastry on a flat surface, keeping remainder covered
with a damp tea towel.  Brush top sheet of stack with butter, lift sheet and
replace on stack, butter side down.  Brush top with butter, lift two sheets
and turn over on stack.  Repeat until all 7-8 sheets are buttered, lifting
an extra sheet each time.  Top and bottom of finished stack should remain
unbuttered.  With kitchen scissors cut the buttered stack of fillo into
squares (we get 24 to a sheet).  Prepare remainder of fillo, folding or
cutting to achieve 10 layers.  Beat egg whites until stiff and beat sugar in
gradually.  Fold in nuts and rose water.  Butter top of fillo square and
place a spoonful of nut mix in the centre.  Gently raise the corners and
fold into a lily shape.  Place close together in a buttered 25 x 33 cm
baking dish.  Place into the centre of a preheated 1808C (3508F) oven for 30
minutes, reducing this to 1408C (2858F) and cooking for a further 15
minutes.

Meanwhile, dissolve the sugar in water over heat, add lemon juice and bring
to the boil.  Boil for 15 minutes, stir in rose water and cool.  Spoon syrup
over hot pastries and leave to cool - preferably overnight.

This cooling, btw, is the centre of at least one of the Nasruddin stories.

Hrolf"

I hope this was of use to you,

Lady Gwynydd of Culloden
Barony of Ynys Fawr in the Principality of Lochac part of the Kingdom of the
West


Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 05:26:15 +0200
From: tgl at mailer.uni-marburg.de
Subject: SC - baklava

Here are two small observations; I am sure others will come up with
other and earlier references:

- -- Hedda Reindl-Kiel in an article about turkish cuisine in the "Archiv
f¸r Kulturgeschichte" (77/1995) says that baklava is mentioned in the
account-books of a diplomatic banquet in 1650 (p. 70 note 45).

- -- Rodinson in his article "Recherches sur les documents arabes ..."
mentions an arabic dish called "Kul wa-skur" from the 'Wusla' (13th
century) which seems to have been similar to baklava (p. 140, note 7):
"Le _Kul wa-skur_ est encore connu au Liban et a Damas. Mlle Victoria
Huzami me le definit comme une sorte de baqlawa compose de deux couches
de pate entre lesquelles on met du sucre, des amandes, etc." (all
accents left out).

Th.


Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 23:26:35 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: baklava recipe (was Re: SC - Help with Cooking period Italian food.)

Hrolf Hrolfsen apparently wrote, about Baklava:
>"The recipe is easy.   As for documentation - someone else seems to have my
>recipe books.  Try Min or Lorix as the most likely culprits.  In fact you
>can easily document the existence of baklava by finding early collections of
>Mullah Nasrudin stories (which date from the 13th century).  There are
>several which involve baklava by name as it was his favourite dessert.

1. Do we know whether "baklava" (in the modern arabic form)  is in 
the 13th c. original? If not,  "baklava" might be simply the 
translator's guess at the nearest modern equivalent. Indeed, are 
there any surviving 13th c. Nasrudin stories (i.e. ones we have in 
the form they were written down then), or is that merely a conjecture 
about when the stories we now have originated?

2. Even if the original said "baklava," without a recipe we can't 
tell if it is what we now call "baklava." "Harisa" is a very common 
medieval Islamic dish--and has almost nothing in common with two 
modern middle eastern dishes that have the same name. Or compare 
medieval gingerbrede with modern gingerbread. Or compare modern 
halvah with hulwa in period.

3.  I am reasonably sure that none of the three medieval Islamic 
cookbooks that I know reasonably well has a recipe for what we call 
baklava. There are recipes that produce lots of thin layers of dough 
(I'm thinking of Musamanna, which I made yesterday), but it isn't 
made the way filo is made. There are lots of recipes with pastry and 
nuts and sugar and butter, but that doesn't add up to baklava.

4. On the other hand,  I think I saw something somewhere by Charles 
Perry referring to a medieval baklava--and he knows lots about 
medieval Islamic cooking.
- -- 
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/


Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 18:27:37 +1000
From: Mark Calderwood <mark-c at acay.com.au>
Subject: SC - Re: baklava

>Hrolf Hrolfsen apparently wrote, about Baklava:
>>"The recipe is easy.

The recipe quoted by Hrolf is from p218, The Complete Middle Eastern 
Cookbook, by Tess Mallos (Landsdowne 1979), and called baklawa be'aj. No 
date or references are given.

Claudia Roden, in A New Book of Middle Eastern Food, (Penguin 1970) states 
that "the pastries (baklava and kadayif) are not mentioned in medieval 
Persian or Arabic works, and seem to have made their appearance in the 
region during the time of the Ottoman empire" and lists as references 
al-Baghdadi, the Kitab al-Tabikh (1239), the Kitab al-Wusla tec (before 
1261). Roden also recounts the tale "The Poisoned dish of Baklawa" from the 
Tales of Nasr-ed Din Khoja (translated from the Turkish by Henry D Barnham 
1923), which again gives no specific recipe, and would seem to be used as 
an equivalent term by the translator.

Andrew Daly notes in Siren Feasts: A History of Food and Gastronomy in 
Greece (Routledge 1996) that although all the ingredients are common 
throughout Greece and the Middle East, there does not seem to have been a 
dish by this name known in Greece before the modern era.

Two websites on the history of baklava:

http://www.baklavachef.com/history.html
The traditional history, which indicates it is period, and not just Turkish.
I just don't know. Note the last paragraph about what is and isn't baklava.

http://www.atamanhotel.com/kitchen/baklava.html
Another traditional history, with some interesting info.

I don't know how accurate they are, but make interesting reading 
nontheless. I'm inclined to think there was something referred to as 
baklava, but that is not what we would know by the same name.

Giles de Laval
Lochac


Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 11:04:30 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Subject: Re: baklava recipe (was Re: SC - Help with Cooking period Italianfood.)

We made the version Perry refers to for an event last fall.  It is, I suppose, a
sort of baklava, but uses a pancake-like layer rather than phyllo, which I
understand is not period.  However, the filling is a syrup with nuts mixed into
it.  The dish was called Gullach, and came from the "Chu-chia pi-yung shih lei"
and was one of the Muslim recipes in an article Charles Perry and Paul Buell
wrote (can't find it at the moment, but will send the reference as soon as I find it).  My redaction of the recipe follows:

Gullach

Mix evenly egg white, bean paste and cream [to make a dough].  Spread out [dough] and fry into thin pancakes.  Use one layer of white powdered sugar, [ground] pine nuts and [ground] walnuts for each layer of pancake.  Make three-four layers like this.  Pour honey dissolved in ghee [ìMuslim oilî] over the top.  Eat.

2 Egg whites
1/2 cup soy flour
1/2 cup table cream
1/16 cup water
3 tbsp. Powdered sugar
1/2 cup Pine nuts, ground
1/2 cup Walnuts, ground
1/2 cup Honey
3 tbsp. Ghee

1. Mix egg whites, flour and cream to make a dough
2. Fry into thin pancakes
3. Mix sugar and nuts together.
4. Heat ghee and mix in honey
5. Build 3 layers, alternating pancakes and sugar/nut mixture, finishing with
sugar/nut mixture.
6. Drizzle ghee/honey mixture over pancakes.
7. Serve as warm as possible.

As you can see, it does greatly resemble baklava, and Perry and others believe
that it is a "proto-baklava".

Kiri


Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 15:24:11 -0000
From: "Nanna Rognvaldardottir" <nanna at idunn.is>
Subject: Re: baklava recipe (was Re: SC - Help with Cooking period Italianfood.)

David/Cariadoc wrote:
>4. On the other hand,  I think I saw something somewhere by Charles
>Perry referring to a medieval baklava--and he knows lots about
>medieval Islamic cooking.

Charles Perry wrote the entry on filo (and baklava) in the Oxford Companion
to Food and he says there, among other things:
"The idea of making the sheets paper thin is a later development. The
Azerbaijanis make the usual sort of baklava with 50 or so layers of filo,
but they also make a strange, archaic pastry called BakÔ pakhlavasÔ
(Baku-style baklava) using ordinary noodle paste instead of filo. It
consists of eight layers of dough separated by seven layers of sweetened
ground nuts. This may represent the earliest form of baklava, resulting from
the Turkish nomads adapting their concept of layered bread - developed in
the absence of ovens - to the use of the oven and combining it with the
usual Persian pastry filling of nuts.

If this is so, baklava actually pre-dated filo, and the paper-thin pastry we
know today was probably an innovation of the Ottoman sultan's kitchen at
Topkapi palace in Istanbul. There is an established connection between the
Topkapi kitchens and baklava; on the 15th of Ramadan every year, the
Janissary troops stationed in Istanbul used to march to the palace, where
every regiment was presented with two trays of baklava. They would sling the
trays in sheets of cloth from a pole and march back to their barracks
carrying the baklava in what was known as the Baklava Procession (baklava
alayi)."

Nanna


Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 21:49:55 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: baklava recipe (was Re: SC - Help with Cooking period Italianfood.)

Nanna writes:
>If this is so, baklava actually pre-dated filo, and the paper-thin pastry we
>know today was probably an innovation of the Ottoman sultan's kitchen at
>Topkapi palace in Istanbul. There is an established connection between the
>Topkapi kitchens and baklava; on the 15th of Ramadan every year, the
>Janissary troops stationed in Istanbul used to march to the palace, where
>every regiment was presented with two trays of baklava. They would sling the
>trays in sheets of cloth from a pole and march back to their barracks
>carrying the baklava in what was known as the Baklava Procession (baklava
>alayi)."

The account webbed at:
http://mideastfood.about.com/food/mideastfood/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atamanhotel.com%2Fkitchen%2Fbaklava.html

dates this custom to the late 17th century--a useful reminder that 
"centuries ago" doesn't necessarily imply "SCA period." Of course, 
they don't give their source.
- -- 
David Friedman
ddfr at best.com


Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:58:02 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - Baklava: A Summary of the evidence

The baklava thread seems to have degenerated into casual chitchat 
unrelated to either baklava or period cooking, so I thought it might 
be time to sum up what we know.

1. There appear to be no period recipes for baklava, at least none 
that anyone here knows about. There also appear to be no period 
references to filo, although there is a 13th century recipe for a 
fried pastry (Musammana) that gives a somewhat similar effect by a 
different technique.

2. There is a modern version of baklava, using something like a 
pancake instead of the layers of filo, which Charles Perry has 
conjectured may be the ancestor of baklava, and might be period.

3. There was an Ottoman ceremony associated with baklava, but the 
only date anyone has given for it is late 17th century, so it 
provides no evidence that baklava is period.

4. We have an assertion by Hrolf Hrolfsen that "you can easily 
document" baklava by looking at the Mullah Nasrudin stories, but no 
actual evidence, and he has so far not showed up on the list to 
defend his views--on that subject or on the unchanging nature of 
Islamic culture.

Hence it appears that, so far, no evidence has been offered that what 
we call baklava is period.
- -- 
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/


Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 07:19:30 -0400
From: "Kathleen Hogan" <kitchenwytch at home.com>
Subject: Re: SC - baklava

> Post it for me, please? I may never make it, but the thought (drool) is
> wonderful.

Okay...I repeat...this recipe is NOT documented...it is a recipe I got from
a Greek student I went to school with (we worked on converting the
measurements, etc. back in 1980...so I don't have the original measurements
anymore).

Helena's Family Baklava recipe

1 lb phyllo pastry
1 lb unsalted butter (do NOT substitute...it doesn't work!)
1 lb coarsely chopped nuts
1 1/2 lbs honey
1 TB ground cinnamon
1 ts ground nutmeg
1 cinnamon stick
2 strips dried orange peel

Melt the butter.  Combine the nuts and ground spices in a bowl.  In a 13 x 9
pan, lay in 1 sheet of pastry, letting the excess hang over the side.  Brush
with butter and fold the remaining pastry in to form a double layer.  Brush
with butter.  Repeat 14 more times.  Spread 1/2 the nut mixture over the
pastry.  Top with 5 double layers of buttered pastry.  Spread remaining nuts
over the pastry.  Top with remaining pastry in buttered double layers.  Cut
into squares cutting no more than halfway through the pastry.  Cut the
squares in half diagonally to form triangles.  Bake at 325 F about 1 hour or
until golden brown.  Remove from oven and set aside to cool.  Combine honey,
cinnamon stick, and orange peel in a saucepan and heat slowly for 1 hour.
Strain.  Pour the spiced honey over the baklava evenly and place in a cool
place (I put it in the fridge) to cool for 6 hours or overnight.  Cut the
rest of the way through and serve.

Caitlin nicFhionghuin


Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:25:41 +0200
From: Volker Bach <bachv at paganet.de>
To: SCA Cooks List <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Baking Khushknanaj was: RE: [SCA Cooks] period sweets

With thanks to the most gracious Anahita, I hope
this humble report may be useful to someone
onlist. Fired by enthusiasm I proceeded to
immediately bake Khushknanaj and can report from
recent experience the following:

I used His Grace Cariadoc's dough mixture, but
instead of sour dough, which I do not have handy,
employed yeast, which worked very well. THe sesame
oil is tasted clearly, but is quite agreeable (I
used North African). I probably overbaked it
slightly, but it is still firm but crumbly and not
hard at all, as I had feared. I also coated two of
the rolls with saffron milk, which looks very
attractive.

I made both loaves and the 'almost baklava'
rolled-up version and found the latter to hold the
stuffing better. My loaves ballooned up, one even
burst, and the sugar mixture inside candied more
strongly than in the rolled-up version.

The filling is very good with unblanched almonds
(no time :-)) and can well stand cutting back on
the sugar a little. I chopped the almonds rather
coarsely, which gave a granular consistency that
goes well with brown sugar, cinnamon or (very
little) cloves (it is a bit bland by itself). I
suspect, however, that the original idea was a
fine, marzipan-like paste, which I will try next.

As an aside, the recipe for the fillings in both
redactions are very close to traditional Lubeck
marzipan.

Giano


Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 00:50:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Around the Mediterranean in four easy courses...
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

--- lilinah at earthlink.net wrote:
> He also requested baklava, which he knows isn't exactly "period". I
> can make something close by altering a "period" recipe or i can use a
> recipe from my Eastern Mediterranean modern pastry book (some of
> which are pretty close to the pastries in "the Book of the
> Description of Familiar Foods").

According to the Oxford Companion to Food, baklava has
roots going back to 14th century Azerbaijan, if I
recall correctly.  However, what baklava was then and
what it is now is very different, since filo/phylo
dough was developed in the late 17th century.  I
believe the original is said to have used thin
pancakes or very thinly slice bread.  You could give
him baklava, but in its original form.  Nuts in a
rosewater syrup between multiple layers of thin
pancakes/bread.

Huette


Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 19:35:01 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Around the Mediterranean in four easy courses...

Speaking of baklava and phyllo... there's
a neat article with photos at Slow Food at
http://www.slowfood.com/Slowfood_UpLoad/Riviste/SLOW/EN/23/phylo.html
"Charles Perry, in his entry on filo in The Oxford Companion to Food,
states that the origin of thin pastry
           layers can be traced back to the Tartars and the nomadic
Turks of Central Asia. "

Check it out--
Johnnae llyn Lewis  Johnna Holloway


Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 15:14:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Around the Mediterranean in four easy courses...
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

--- johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> wrote:
> Speaking of baklava and phyllo... there's
> a neat article with photos at Slow Food at
> http://www.slowfood.com/Slowfood_UpLoad/Riviste/SLOW/EN/23/phylo.html
> "Charles Perry, in his entry on filo in The Oxford Companion to Food,
> states that the origin of thin pastry layers can be traced back to the Tartars
> and the nomadic Turks of Central Asia. "

Interesting.  Because Charles Perry in his entry on
filo doesn't exactly say that.  He traces filo back to
the kitchens of the Topkopi in Istambul [late 16th
century], but states that baklava predates filo.  He
traces baklava back to Azerbaijan, but states that
they used thin pancakes or thinly sliced bread.

This is why you should be very very careful of web
sites.  This website in this case is giving
mis-information.

Huette


Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:04:54 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Reply on Filo/baklava was Around the Mediterranean...

Greetings from Johnnae llyn Lewis

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 I posted a note
saying that there was a neat article
 at Slow Food on the subject of filo dough at
 http://www.slowfood.com/Slowfood_UpLoad/Riviste/SLOW/EN/23/phylo.html.
The reason I thought this was a neat article
was that it showed photos and described the traditional process
of making phylo dough by hand which is becoming a lost art.
(My great grandmother could roll noodles thin enough to read
a newspaper through. I don't have that touch. Few do these days.)
It also mentioned the work of Charles Perry.

Huette von Ahrens then posted on Mon, 22 Apr 2002 :>
> > Interesting.  Because Charles Perry in his entry on
> > filo doesn't exactly say that.  He traces filo back to
> > the kitchens of the Topkopi in Istambul [late 16th
> > century], but states that baklava predates filo.  He
> > traces baklava back to Azerbaijan, but states that
> > they used thin pancakes or thinly sliced bread.
> >
> > This is why you should be very very careful of web
> > sites.  This website in this case is giving
> > mis-information.> >
> > Huette

------------
Quite frankly I didn't see the problem with article that
Huette did and I did not ever remember reading that "thin
pancakes or thinly slicely breads" were used. I clearly
remembered that his earlier papers were connected with how
the doughs for Persian pasta and noodles were transformed
over time, so I started a scholarly investigation.
I reread Huette's post, I reread The Slow Food article
carefully and then I read the Oxford Companion to Food entries
on "filo" and "baklava" which Charles Perry wrote for that work.
Having followed his work beginning with its first appearance in
PPC back in 1980,  I then reread all the various PPC issues
that contained his various articles on this subject to date;
also I reread his Oxford Conference papers on the subject that
he has written through the years. I also reread his paper "The
Taste for Layered Bread among the Nomadic Turks and the Central
Asian Origins of Baklava" which was originally given at a 1992
conference and then rewritten for publication in the volume
edited by Zubaida and Tapper as Culinary Cultures of the Middle East.

Having reread all this material, I then wrote to Charles Perry and
asked him the following two questions:

>"Does the Slow Food article misrepresent your work and do
>you really feel that they used "thin pancakes or thinly
>sliced bread" to make the archaic form of baklava that
>was made in Azerbaijan?"
>
>He wrote back yesterday and said:
>
>"Dear Johanna,
>        I don't think that Aglaia misrepresents my position,
though she's reluctant, like most Greeks, to give the Turks any credit
for inventing filo. "

As for the question regarding whether or not
 as Huette wrote "the primitive Azerbaijani baklava is made from "thin
pancakes or thinly sliced bread,"
he replied that this was a mistake in that
" It is made from thin sheets of
stiffly kneaded dough; as you say, much like noodle paste."

I didn't ask for permission to quote the rest of his letter
including the more detailed discussion and I won't do so here. Most
of his points are clearly laid out in the Culinary Cultures paper.
There he states that there were thin doughs (although not paper thin)
being used prior to the development of filo in the Topkapi Palace
kitchens. The archaic form of baklava called  Baki pakhlavasi
that was made by the Azabayjanis was a layered pastry of 15 layers,
consisting of 8  noodle thick dough layers with 7 of nut filling.
The Ottoman kitchens combined their skills with this archaic dish
and came up with the paper thin dough now known as filo
and this has led in turn to modern baklava.

Johnna Holloway  Johnnae llyn Lewis


Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 00:07:48 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: david friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Khushkananaj (was: Around the Mediterranean...)

>I suggested:
>  > Or you could make khushkananaj. It isn't baklava, but I have had
>>  someone asking me for the recipe describe it to me as "a kind of dry
>>  baklava". It might be close enough to make him happy.

and Stefan responded:
>Is this the "proto-baklava", we've talked about here before? If not,
>recipe please? What do you mean by "dry"? Do you mean no honey or
>sugar syrup?

No. Recipe in the Miscellany, also below. It is a pastry with a
sugar/chopped almond/rosewater filling. One way we make it ends up
with the pastry and filling rolled up together, producing thin
layers.  (The original just says "make into long loaves".) Since it
is made with a sugar/nut filling and almost no liquid in the filling,
it comes out dry rather than sticky with honey like baklava. It is
one of the standard things we make and bring to events; our kids, who
Do Not Like nuts, are none the less happy to eat this.

Khushkananaj
al-Baghdadi p. 212/14 (13th c. Islamic)

Take fine white flour, and with every ratl mix three uqiya of
sesame-oil [one part oil to four of flour], kneading into a firm
paste. Leave to rise; then make into long loaves. Put into the middle
of each loaf a suitable quantity of ground almonds and scented sugar
mixed with rose water, using half as much almonds as sugar. Press
together as usual, bake in the oven, remove. [end of original]

2 c white +1 c whole wheat flour
1/2 c sesame oil
6 oz almonds ==1 c before chopping
additional flour for rolling out dough
12 oz == 1 1/2 c sugar
1 T rose water
3/4 to 7/8 c cold water or
1/2 c water, 1/2 c sourdough starter

"Leave to rise" is a puzzle, since the recipe includes neither yeast
nor water. The recipe does not seem to work without water; perhaps
the author took it for granted that making a paste implied adding
water. We originally developed the recipe without leavening, but
currently use sourdough, which is our best guess at what the original
intended (and also seems to work a little better). The two versions
are:

Without leavening: Mix the flour, stir in the oil. Sprinkle the water
onto the dough, stir in. Knead briefly together.

Sourdough: Mix the flour, stir in the oil. Mix the water and the sour
dough starter together. Add gradually to the flour/oil mixture, and
knead briefly together. Cover with a damp cloth and let rise about 8
hours in a warm place, then knead a little more.

We also have two interpretations of how the loaves are made; they are:

Almost Baklava: Divide in four parts. Roll each one out to about
8"x16" on a floured board. Grind almonds, combine with sugar and rose
water. Spread the mixture over the rolled out dough and roll up like
a jelly roll, sealing the ends and edges (use a wet finger if
necessary). You may want to roll out the dough in one place and roll
it up in another, so as not to have bits of nuts on the board you are
trying to roll it out on. You can vary how thin you roll the dough
and how much filling you use over a considerable range, to your own
taste.

Long thin loaves: Divide the dough into six or eight parts, roll each
out to a long loaf (about 16"), flatten down the middle so that you
can fill it with the sugar and almond mixture, then seal it together
over the filling. You end up with a tube of dough with filling in the
middle.

Bake at 350 degrees about 45-50 minutes.

Notes: At least some of the almonds should be only coarsely ground,
for texture. The sesame oil is the Middle Eastern version, which is
almost flavorless; you can get something similar at health food
stores. Chinese sesame oil, made from toasted sesame seeds, is very
strongly flavored and results in a nearly inedible pastry. We do not
know what scented sugar contained.

Elizabeth/Betty Cook


Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 09:26:59 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: david friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Khushkananaj (was: Around the Mediterranean...)

>  >  > Or you could make khushkananaj. It isn't baklava, but I have had
>>>   someone asking me for the recipe describe it to me as "a kind of dry
>>>   baklava". It might be close enough to make him happy.
>
>How long will the khushkananaj keep? How best to store it so it does keep?
>Avraham

It's best fresh, but we've kept it for a couple of weeks and had it
still pretty good. It's probably best not to cut it if you plan to
keep it for a while, and to keep it in a reasonably well sealed
container--but I've never actually done experiments to compare how
long it keeps under various circumstances.

You can also freeze it, if you are keeping it at home rather than at an event.
--
David/Cariadoc


Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:50:32 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: [Sca-cooks] OOP Baklava with nuts and sesame seeds

Here's the Baklava recipe we cooked at the Mists Bardic Feast. I
thought it was really delicious.

I used less syrup than would have been called for, because i don't
like stuff too sweet. A number of folks remarked, completely
unbidden, on how much better they liked this less sweet baklava than
the usual far too sickly sweet stuff.

Also, it was a lot easier to make than the directions look - this is
the second time i've used phyllo and while describing the process
takes a lot of words, actually doing it is not difficult and goes
along pretty smoothly and quickly.

Anahita

-------=======-------=======-------

Baqlawa min Semsem wa Fistuk
Baklava with Sesame Seeds and Pistachios

about 100 small pieces

Modern Syrian-Lebanese, adapted from:
page 16
Patisserie of the Eastern Mediterranean
by Arto Der Haroutunian
McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1989
ISBN 0-07-026665-4

SYRUP:
3-1/2 cups sugar
3 cups water
juice of 3 lemons
2 Tb. rose water
2 Tb. orange flower water

BAQLAWA:
a little butter (to grease pans)
2 lb. frozen phyllo sheets (at room temperature)
3 Tb. butter
2/3 cup sesame seeds
1/3 cup raisins, soaked about 15 minutes in warm water
3 cups coarsely chopped nuts (about 1/2 lb. each almonds, walnuts, hazelnuts)
1 tsp. cinnamon
1/2 tsp. nutmeg
2 cups melted butter
2 cups shelled pistachio nutmeats, chopped

SYRUP:
1. Put sugar in water with lemon juice on medium fire. Raise heat and
bring to boil, stirring.
2. Lower heat and simmer 10 minutes, until it coats the spoon.
3. Remove from heat, stir in flower waters, and let cool.

BAQLAWA:
1. Preheat oven to 350 degrees Fahrenheit
2. Grease two 12 X 8 X 2 pans with a little butter.
3. Place phyllo sheets on a large plate, open them out halfway, cover
top with waxed paper, then a damp towel.
4. In 3 Tb. butter, fry sesame seeds until golden, stirring constantly.
5. Remove sesame seeds from heat and stir in raisins, chopped mixed
nuts, cinnamon, and nutmeg.
6. Put one sheet of phyllo in pan, cut in half.
7. With a wide pastry brush, spread with about 1 tsp. butter.
Continue adding half sheets, buttering every second sheet, until
there are 6 to 8 half sheets stacked in the pan.
8. Scatter half of nut-raisin mixture evenly over the pastry.
9. Repeat with another 6-8 sheets of phyllo and butter, then sprinkle
with the remaining nuts-and-raisins.
10. Top with another 6-8 sheets of phyllo, buttering every second
sheet. Butter top. Pour any remaining butter over all.
11. Carefully cut into pieces (about 1-3/4") without crushing. Be
sure to cut through to the bottom of the pan.
12. Sprinkle all over with chopped pistachios
13. Bake at 350 degrees Fahrenheit for 30 min.
14. Lower heat to 300 and bake an additional hour - check
occasionally to make sure it doesn't burn.
15. Remove from oven and let cool about 15 min.
16. Pour cold syrup evenly over all.
17. Let cool completely.
18. Loosen all pieces with a sharp knife, and transfer very carefully
on serving dishes.
This was amazingly delicious. There was actually some left over - it
was good for several days.


From: DeeWolff at aol.com
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:32:39 EST
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Comments please?

I came upon this statement when I was studying a use of phyllo  for a
catering job (Elizabethan/Christmas) I  will be doing soon. I am trying to
properly document the use of phyllo. Please, comments please? Andrea

"The Greek seamen and merchants traveling east to Mesopotamia soon discovered
the delights of Baklava. It mesmerized their taste buds. They brought the
recipe to Athens. The Greeks' major contribution to the development of this
pastry is the creation of a dough technique that made it possible to roll it
as thin as a leaf, compared to the rough, bread-like texture of the Assyrian
dough. In fact, the name "Phyllo" was coined by Greeks, which means "leaf" in
the Greek language. In a relatively short time, in every kitchen of wealthy
households in the region, trays of baklava were being baked for all kinds of
special occasions from the 3rd Century B.C. onwards."


From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
To: "SCA-Cooks" <Sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Fw: [Sca-cooks] Comments please?
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:26:01 -0500

>I came upon this statement when I was studying a use of phyllo  for a
>catering job (Elizabethan/Christmas) I  will be doing soon. I am trying to
>properly document the use of phyllo. Please, comments please? Andrea

I asked Paul Buell about the quote you provided, and he responded with some
asperity:

> (Expletive deleted)....Thin doughs used for this purpose, to my knowledge, are
> Central Asian as is baklava, which is from a Turkicized Mongolian word. The
> Greeks certainly did not have it in 300 BC. This statement is based upon a
> misunderstanding of Athenaeus, probably an intentional one. Circa 1600 is
> way too early for baklava in the West, the Turkish variety that we know
> today was only in the process of development. It was the Osmanli who
> popularized and its rise as a popular food is to be connected with the rise
> of the coffee house. Buell

Phlip


Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 19:24:30 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Questions in prep for a spanish feast
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Third, I know people refer to a certain period islamic recipe as being
> a sort of ancestor of baklava. Can anyone point me to this recipe? 

Two recipes occur to me that might be described that way. One is
Khuskhananaj. But although the way I most often makes it results in
lots of thin layers of pastry alternating with nuts and sugar, the
original recipe doesn't specify that. The other is Musamanna--the
leafy dish. It does end up with lots of thin layers and soaked in
honey and butter.

You can find recipes for both in the Miscellany, webbed on my site.
--  
David/Cariadoc


Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 21:36:22 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Questions in prep for a spanish feast
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

> Third, I know people refer to a certain period islamic recipe as being
> a sort of ancestor of baklava. Can anyone point me to this recipe? 

There's also Lauzinaj, almonds ground with sugar wrapped in a light
pastry in the Book of the Description of Familiar Foods, al-Kitab
Wasf al-At'ima al-Mu'tada, dated 1373, complete text translated and
introduced by Charles Perry in "Medieval Arab Cookery".

I have his English translation and my recipe on my website:
http://witch.drak.net/lilinah/persianchef.html

My version was simplified, as i was Iron Chef Persian at a time when
i was homeless. Since i didn't have a kitchen to experiment with
dough wrappers, i made it with marzipan and phyllo. Perhaps it would
be more historical with a less finely ground almond mixture. While i
think that the dough was not phyllo, i am encouraged by the
description of the dough as being as gossamer as grasshoppers' wings
to use it as an acceptable substitute until i can make further
experiments.

Anahita


Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:55:09 -0500
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Help please...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

lilinah at earthlink.net wrote:
> From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
>> I dunno guys, my take on it is that with careful selection of strong
>> sweet spices, this could be the "period baklava" we've been looking 
>> for.
>
> Why look to an Italian recipe where there are plenty of proto-baklava
> recipes in the Arab cookbooks?
>
> Anahita

Actually, I think we found the proto-baklava in* *the "*Chu-chia pi-yung
shih lei "*, a late 14^th c. household encyclopedia. These recipes were
part of an article written by Dr. Paul Buell, which dealt with Muslim
influences on the Mongol culure.

Gullach

Mix evenly egg white, bean paste and cream [to make a dough]. Spread out
[dough] and fry into thin pancakes. Use one layer of white powdered
sugar, [ground] pine nuts and [ground] walnuts for each layer of
pancake. Make three-four layers lie this. Pour honey dissolved in ghee
[“Muslim oil”] over the top. Eat.

2 Egg whites
1/2 cup soy flour
1/2cup table cream
1/16 cup water
3 tbsp. Powdered sugar
1/2 cup Pine nuts, ground
1/2 cup Walnuts, ground
1/2 cup Honey
3 tbsp. Ghee

Mix egg white, ben paste and cream together to form a batter. Spread
out the batter onto a griddle and fry into thin pancakes. Place one
pancake on a dish, covering it with a layer of white powdered sugar,
ground pine nuts and walnuts. Place a second pancake on top and reeat
layering until there are three or four layers. Melt honey with ghee and
pour over stack of pancakes.

According to Paul, this is, in all likelihood, the precursor of baklava,
that wonderful dessert so common throughout the Middle East. This view
is also supported by Cariadoc.

And, best of all...it's yummy!

Kiri


Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 02:30:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Help please...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

--- Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Actually, I think we found the proto-baklava in* *the "*Chu-chia pi-yung
> shih lei "*, a late 14^th c. household encyclopedia. These recipes were
> part of an article written by Dr. Paul Buell, which dealt with Muslim
> influences on the Mongol culture.

> Gullach

> According to Paul, this is, in all likelihood,
> the precursor of baklava,
> that wonderul dessert so common throughout the
> Middle East. This view
> is also supported by Cariadoc.
>
> And, best of all...it's yummy!
>
> Kiri

Really?  Because it isn't supported by Charles
Perry or the late Alan Davidson.  They have
found evidence of an 11th Century proto-baklava
amongst the Turkish Nomads.  Of course, it
is using layered, thinly cut bread, rather than
the pancake, but still an earlier precursor.

Of course, filo [or phylo] waan't developed
until the late 17th century Ottomans.

Huette


Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 23:08:15 -0500
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] period baklava-like pastry was: Period Greek
	Recipes
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

  You can make and bake the "baklava" ahead of time and it is less likely to
go bad like the cheesecake. Baklava is rarely served warm to hot, at least
the Greek style. I'm not sure of the serving temp. for the Turkish  
baklava.

-----Original Message-----
Thank you for your suggestion. I actually considered baklava in the
beginning, but decided against it because it would be nearly impossible
to prepare it in the kitchen (if you can call it that) where I will prepare
feast. I have NO stove top, I have NO ovens, I have one sink with only two
wells. It's really tough to do much. What I do have is a
lot of outlets for roasters, and a 2 foot by 12 foot cinder block fire pit
that I can use. Too bad, I really like baklava, just won't happen  
with this feast kitchen. :(


Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 22:41:42 -0700
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <dailleurs at liripipe.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] period baklava-like pastry was: Period Greek
	Recipes
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Hey all from Anne-Marie

Once I had an oh-so greek roommate who taught me how to make baklava. It
MUST be made at least a day before, and given time to cool, because that's
when it absorbs all that yummy syrup. The yayas (grammas) would be mortified
if it was served warm!

She also explained to me the heresies of the Turkish styles and how "that's
not really bakalava" ;)

So if you have your heart set on serving modern baklava, you'll need to do
it at home ahead of time anyway, so I wouldn't let kitchen space be a
limiting factor.

If what you want is a period pastry that involves honey and nuts, the
isifunj (sp) from the middle eastern sources (cant remember the exact
citation, sorry!) is lovely :)

Good luck!
--Anne-Marie, who has been roped into making baklava for a feast before.
Oof! That was a big chore!


Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 23:08:15 -0500
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] period baklava-like pastry was: Period Greek
	Recipes
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

  You can make and bake the "baklava" ahead of time and it is less likely to
go bad like the cheesecake. Baklava is rarely served warm to hot, at least
the Greek style. I'm not sure of the serving temp. for the Turkish  
baklava.

-----Original Message-----
Thank you for your suggestion. I actually considered baklava in the
beginning, but decided against it because it would be nearly impossible
to prepare it in the kitchen (if you can call it that) where I will prepare
feast. I have NO stove top, I have NO ovens, I have one sink with only two
wells. It's really tough to do much. What I do have is a
lot of outlets for roasters, and a 2 foot by 12 foot cinder block fire pit
that I can use. Too bad, I really like baklava, just won't happen  
with this feast kitchen. :(


Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 22:41:42 -0700
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <dailleurs at liripipe.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] period baklava-like pastry was: Period Greek
	Recipes
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Hey all from Anne-Marie

Once I had an oh-so greek roommate who taught me how to make baklava. It
MUST be made at least a day before, and given time to cool, because that's
when it absorbs all that yummy syrup. The yayas (grammas) would be mortified
if it was served warm!

She also explained to me the heresies of the Turkish styles and how "that's
not really bakalava" ;)

So if you have your heart set on serving modern baklava, you'll need to do
it at home ahead of time anyway, so I wouldn't let kitchen space be a
limiting factor.

If what you want is a period pastry that involves honey and nuts, the
isifunj (sp) from the middle eastern sources (cant remember the exact
citation, sorry!) is lovely :)

Good luck!
--Anne-Marie, who has been roped into making baklava for a feast before.
Oof! That was a big chore!


Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 22:38:18 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Baklava
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Apr 4, 2007, at 10:10 PM, Stefan li Rous wrote:
> Yes, that is why I refer to that Florilegium file as "Period *baklava-
> like* layered pastries". Hmmm. Okay, what is the difference between
> "phyllo" and "puff pastry"? I thought they were basically the same,
> multiple, thin layers of pastry. And both post-1600.

Puff pastry has antecedents that may come from before 1600 CE. While
phyllo also has period antecedents, phyllo qua phyllo is pretty much
an industrial product, which probably makes it, in its current,
recognizable form, somewhat newer than puff pastry. Which, while
often factory-made, can still be made in a home kitchen without
changing the basic method.

The difference is in the manufacture and assembly of the layers. Puff
pastry is laminated with butter, folded, rolled, folded and rolled
again, repeatedly until it's a fairly thin sheet composed of
thousands of alternating layers of flour-and-water-dough, and butter.
Think of Damascus steel done in dough and butter. When you bake it,
the water in the pastry turns to steam, causing the pastry to inflate
and become rigid as it bakes. Phyllo is cooked in individual layers
without the butter, and only attains the multiple layers (usually
painted with melted butter or oil) when you stack them in as many
layers as you want. Then it's generally filled and/or formed, and
baked again until crisp. It puffs slightly, but nowhere near as
dramatically as properly made puff paste, which, under the right
circumstances, can grow in thickness/height by a factor of 8-12 or more.

Adamantius


Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 22:38:18 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Baklava
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Apr 4, 2007, at 10:10 PM, Stefan li Rous wrote:

> Yes, that is why I refer to that Florilegium file as "Period *baklava-
> like* layered pastries". Hmmm. Okay, what is the difference between
> "phyllo" and "puff pastry"? I thought they were basically the same,
> multiple, thin layers of pastry. And both post-1600.

Puff pastry has antecedents that may come from before 1600 CE. While
phyllo also has period antecedents, phyllo qua phyllo is pretty much
an industrial product, which probably makes it, in its current,
recognizable form, somewhat newer than puff pastry. Which, while
often factory-made, can still be made in a home kitchen without
changing the basic method.

The difference is in the manufacture and assembly of the layers. Puff
pastry is laminated with butter, folded, rolled, folded and rolled
again, repeatedly until it's a fairly thin sheet composed of
thousands of alternating layers of flour-and-water-dough, and butter.
Think of Damascus steel done in dough and butter. When you bake it,
the water in the pastry turns to steam, causing the pastry to inflate
and become rigid as it bakes. Phyllo is cooked in individual layers
without the butter, and only attains the multiple layers (usually
painted with melted butter or oil) when you stack them in as many
layers as you want. Then it's generally filled and/or formed, and
baked again until crisp. It puffs slightly, but nowhere near as
dramatically as properly made puff paste, which, under the right
circumstances, can grow in thickness/height by a factor of 8-12 or more.

Adamantius


Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 10:34:59 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Back to baklava.
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Think Ottoman, not Greek and turn to those sources.
from my notes--
As regards pre-1600 baklava, there is of course an original late 16th
century early 17th century recipe included in Mary Isin?s commentary in
the book A King?s Confectioner in the Orient. The recipe?s titled ?Royal
Baklava.?
This book is properly
Unger, Friedrich. A King's Confectioner in the Orient. Edited with a
Commentary by Priscilla Mary Isin. Translated from the German by Maret
Cakmak & Reneate Omerogullari. London: Kegan Paul, 2003. The Court
Confectioner to King Otto I of Greece in the 1830?s, the author spent
five years collecting recipes and researching traditional methods of
sweet production in Greece and the Ottoman Empire.

The chapter in question is Chapter 17 pages 176-178 and it appears in
the commentary section of the book.
Mary Isin notes that baklava appears in the imperial kitchen register in
1473. The baklava-i-sultani
Royal Baklava is the recipe that she gives as being dated late 16th
-early 17th century. It's from
a manuscript. It's long and I won't copy it out here. It is a layered
pastry with butter, sugar and nuts that
is folded over. It's not the modern recipe. It's not filo pastry. That
idea is straight out, ok?

****
Later I did come across this 1653 printed reference in EEBO Early
English Books Online

And as for sugar,
there is spent an unspeakable deal of it, in the making of
Sherbets and Boclavas, which not only the Seraglio useth: but are also
ordinary presents from one Bashawe to another, and from one friend to another:
insomuch that it is a thing to be admired, that so great a quantity
should so suddenly be consumed.

boclavas ? Note that searching in this case on baklavas would not have
turned up this reference. I actually found this while looking for references on  
sherbets.

The book is
A description of the grand signour's seraglio or Turkish emperours court
[edited] by John Greaves. Bon, Ottaviano, 1552-1623., Withers, Robert.,
Greaves, John, 1602-1652. London: Printed 1653. There's also apparently
a 1650 edition.

Ottaviano Bon died in 1623 so the work dates from before his death.
An article in 1961's Modern Language Notes describes him as follows:
*"Ottaviano Bon* was ambassador from Venice to Spain, the Porte, and
France successively.
He was resident as Bailo in Constantinople from 1604-1608."
****

This work in 2006 was done prior to the Midrealm Spring Coronation
Banquet (April 2006).

I did research again at that time work on baklava, sugar works,
sherberts, ices, desserts etc.
That feast eventually included a baklava of sorts.
It was described as Gullac- sweetened nut filled pastry (like baklava)
The menu is up at the wayback machine
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421193739/http://www.midrealm.org/ 
rimsholt/coronation/feast.html

I went over and helped make the actual dish that was served. Under
Mistress Kay's direction
we made a crepe that was then layered
with ground walnuts and honey. Each pie pan contained 7-9 crepes with
nut layers in between. The dish
was rewarmed onsite prior to being served. I gather it was quite a hit.

Johnnae llyn Lewis


Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 22:50:56 -0400
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Baklava
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> I suppose when we look at the antecedents for phyllo, it's easy to
> suppose that the Turks are a likely bridge between Middle Eastern
> varak and Greek phyllo. Do we have any reason to believe the Greeks
> were eating a phyllo-like pastry before, roughly, 1453? Is it an
> early example of a marketing campaign altering a national cuisine?
>
> Adamantius, too early in the morning and not enough caffeine...

Well, Rumpolt has "Ungarische Turten" Hungarian Tarts, make with 20
or 30 leaves rolled out separately.  I imagine the Hungarians got it
from somewhere in the Middle east. The machine made stuff is fairly
new, but home made phyllo is still made like that.

Ranvaig


Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 22:52:24 -0500
From: "Pat Griffin" <ldyannedubosc at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Phyllo definition
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> From Wikipedia:
Phyllo, filo or fillo dough (Greek ????? 'leaf') consists of paper- 
thin sheets of raw, unleavened flour dough. The Turkish name for  
phyllo is yufka, though there is also a Turkish flatbread named  
yufka. Yufka sheets are slightly thicker than phyllo. Kadaif, also  
known as shredded phyllo, is used in many of the same dishes as  
phyllo, but is made by a different process.

Phyllo and yufka are used in many of the cuisines of the former  
Ottoman Empire. The individual sheets are layered with butter and  
other ingredients, then baked to make flaky pies and pastries,  
including baklava, spanakopita, tiropita, bstilla, and b?rek.

In Turkish cuisine these pastries are called b?rek, in Egyptian  
cuisine they are called Gollash, in Albanian cuisine they are called  
byrek, in Austrian-German-Hungarian cuisine the dough is called bl? 
tterteig and pastries made from phyllo are called strudel. In Bosnia,  
the word burek is only used for the pastries with meat and other  
kinds are called pita. In Serbian language phyllo is called kore  
(plural) while the pastries have various names, depending on mode of  
preparation. In Bulgaria the dough is called kori za banitsa (pl.)  
and the generic name for the pastries is banitsa, although there are  
special names for some specific kinds.

Yufka appears to be of ancient origin. Apicius records dishes  
constructed from sheets of unleavened bread, separated by layers of  
ingredients such as chicken, pine nuts and goats-cheese.[citation  
needed] As early as the 11th century, a dictionary of Turkish  
dialects (Diwan Lughat al-Turk) recorded pleated/folded bread as one  
meaning of the word yuvgha, which is related to the word (yufka). The  
idea of stretching raw dough into paper-thin sheets is a later  
development, probably developed in the kitchens of the Topkapi palace. 
[1]

Homemade phyllo takes time and skill. It requires progressive rolling  
and stretching of the dough to a single, thin and very big sheet,  
with continual flouring of its surface, which tends to break apart. A  
very big table and a long roller are used. Once finished, the phyllo  
is floured, folded, then used as desired. Most phyllo is made with  
wheat flour and water, but some dessert recipes call for egg yolks in  
addition.

Machines for producing filo pastry were perfected in the mid- 
twentieth century.[2] Nowadays most phyllo is produced by machine.  
Phyllo for domestic use is widely available from supermarkets, fresh  
or frozen.

Phyllo can be used in many ways: layered, folded, rolled, or ruffled,  
with various fillings (or none). Some common varieties are:

with apples: apfelstrudel
with cheese: called Peynirli b?rek in Turkey, burekas in Israel,  
Tiropita in Greece, Gibanica in Serbia, standard Banitsa in Bulgaria
with cherries
with chicken: called Tavuklu b?rek in Turkish cuisine, kotopita in  
Greek cuisine
with greens: called hortopita in Greek cuisine (prasopita when filled  
with leeks)
with meat: called k?ymal? b?rek or Talas b?regi in Turkish cuisine,  
Kreatopita in Greek cuisine, burek in Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia and  
elsewhere
with nuts and syrup: baklava
with potatoes: called patatopita in Greek cuisine
with powdered sugar on top: called Sekerli b?rek in Turkish cuisine
with spinach and feta cheese: called ispanakli b?rek in Turkish  
cuisine, Spanakopita in Greek cuisine
with boiled dough: su b?regi
with a custard or cheese filling: Greek bougatsa, Turkish bo?a?a.
Some recipes also use an egg yolk glaze on top when baked, to enhance  
color and crispness.

See also
Kadaif, sometimes known as shredded phyllo

Lady Anne du Bosc
Known as Mordonna The Cook


Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 00:22:59 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Phyllo definition
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I am sorry but this article even carries the warning that it is  
unsourced.
And since it says "Categories
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Categories>: Articles with
unsourced statements since April 2007
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
Category:Articles_with_unsourced_statements_since_April_2007>
| All articles with unsourced statements
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
Category:All_articles_with_unsourced_statements>
| Food ingredients
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Food_ingredients> | Pastry
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Pastry>"

It's been rewritten recently.

The only sources it lists are

    1. *^ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllo#_ref-0>* See the baklava
       <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baklava> article.
    2. *^ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllo#_ref-1>* Athens Foods,
       Cleveland, OH <http://www.athens.com/news/article- 
feelforphyllo.html>

Athens Foods is a manufacturer. One might as well see this as an
endorsement of their brand.
I would suggest that starting with copies of the Oxford Companion to
Food, back issues of PPC, and a good basic
library of historical sources would be better. One can obtain a
definition from a number of sources, most of which
are better than the Wiki. Try "define phyllo" instead.

Johnnae

> From Wikipedia:
> Phyllo, filo or fillo dough (Greek ????? 'leaf') snipped


Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:34:36 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Corn Flakes (Was: Period Baklava)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> I recall reading a pretty detailed description someplace; I thought
> it was in Harold McGee's On Food And Cooking, but I now can't find
> the passage. I'll look for it again; there's a limited number of
> places it would be if it's anywhere.

Again, all the descriptions I'm finding suggest that phyllo pastry is
made from dough that is stretched. Also, I find that most sources
suggest that machinery for commercially making phyllo dough was invented
around 1970.

Well, here's the description of phyllo (which is, by the way,
differentiated from puff pastry) in the _Encyclopedia of Food and
Culture_:
"In Central Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa, strudel and
phyllo pastries are made from a dough of flour, a little butter or oil,
and water, which is worked to form an elastic mass that is stretched
into a paper-thin sheet. When the pastry is ready for use in baking, the
surface is brushed with melted butter. Strudel pastry is rolled around
fillings such as apples or poppy seeds, while phyllo is often cut into
sheets and stacked in layers with nuts to make sweet dishes, or with
spinach and cheese for savory ones."

The Encyclopedia Britannica, on baklava:

" rich Turkish, Greek, and Middle Eastern pastry of phyllo (filo) dough
and nuts. Phyllo is a simple flour-and-water dough that is stretched to
paper thinness and cut into sheets, a process so exacting that it is
frequently left to commercial manufacturers. For baklava, 30 or 40
sheets of phyllo, each brushed liberally with melted butter, are layered
in a baking pan with finely chopped walnuts, pistachios, or almonds.
After the pastry is baked it is drenched with a syrup of honey and lemon
juice. Cinnamon, ground cloves, cardamom, or rosewater may flavour
either the filling or the syrup."
-- 
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net 


Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:17:52 -0700
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gullaj/Gullach
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

ONE
I'm trying to track down what modern Turkish gullac is. I find 
recipes using it, and many include photos of the final product, but 
not of the gullac itself. It seems to be some sort of noodle or pasta 
or dough-thing, since it is quite often soaked in milk before being 
used). However, i haven't found a recipe for the pasta itself, or 
photos of the "raw" product, to get some idea of its thickness and 
dimensions.

Anyone have any idea (i'm talkin' the modern Turkish stuff, not the 
historical)?

TWO
Long ago i saved Kiri's recipe for recreated 14th C. Turko-Mongol 
gullach which she posted to this list. I noticed some inconsistencies 
(this is not a smack down, i make mistakes when i post to the list 
and even on my web pages - it's just that i noticed this recently)

<<< Gullach

Mix evenly egg white, bean paste and cream [to make a 
dough].  Spread out [dough] and fry into thin pancakes.  Use one 
layer of white powdered sugar, [ground] pine nuts and [ground] 
walnuts for each layer of pancake.  Make three-four layers like 
this.  Pour honey dissolved in ghee [Muslim oil] over the top. Eat.

2 Egg whites
1/2 cup soy flour [Urtatim sez: probably should be mung bean starch]
1/2 cup table cream
1/16 cup water [orphan ingredient - not mentioned in recipe]
[Urtatim adds: butter or oil]
3 tbsp. Powdered sugar
1/2 cup Pine nuts, ground
1/2 cup Walnuts, ground
3 tbsp. Ghee
1/2 cup Honey

1. Mix egg whites, flour and cream to make a dough
2. Fry into thin pancakes
3. Mix sugar and nuts together.
4. Heat ghee and mix in honey
5. Build 3 layers, alternating pancakes and sugar/nut mixture, 
finishing with sugar/nut mixture.
6. Drizzle ghee/honey mixture over pancakes.
7. Serve as warm as possible.

As you can see, it does greatly resemble baklava, and Perry and 
others believe that it is a "proto-baklava".

Kiri >>>

I have found two omissions.

First: In step 2 one fries the batter. I assume one uses butter or 
oil that is not mentioned in the recipe. So i've added it into the 
ingredients. Which did you prefer, Kiri?

Second: 1/16 cup Water is listed among the ingredients. That is 1 
Tablespoon (an easier way to measure than by the cup :-). However, it 
is not included anywhere in the recipe. Logically it could be used 
either in the batter for the "crepes" or it could be used to thin the 
honey. So i'm wondering where it goes, Kiri.

Third: Kiri mentioned an article by Charles Perry and Paul Buell 
discussing bakalava/proto-baklava/gullach. At the time she posted, 
she didn't have the reference.

Am i correct in thinking that the source is:
Charles Perry, "The Taste for Layered Bread among the Nomadic Turks 
and the Central Asian Origins of Baklava," in "A Taste of Thyme: 
Culinary Cultures of the Middle East", Sami Zubaida and Richard 
Tapper (eds.) (1994) ISBN-10: 1860646034.

Thanks for any clarifications.

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:57:33 -0400
From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gullaj/Gullach
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net> wrote:

<< TWO
Long ago i saved Kiri's recipe for recreated 14th C. Turko-Mongol gullach
which she posted to this list. I noticed some inconsistencies (this is not a
smack down, i make mistakes when i post to the list and even on my web pages
- it's just that i noticed this recently)

 Gullach >>

<<< Mix evenly egg white, bean paste and cream [to make a dough].  Spread out [dough] and fry into thin pancakes.  Use one layer of white powdered sugar, [ground] pine nuts and [ground] walnuts for each layer of pancake.  Make three-four layers like this.  Pour honey dissolved in ghee [Muslim oil] over the top. Eat.

2 Egg whites
1/2 cup soy flour [Urtatim sez: probably should be mung bean starch] >>>

This was the best information we had at the time.  It could well be, in
light of new information, that you're probably correct...however, once
again, soy flour is easier to obtain even now, so I probably would continue
to use it.  The only way I could obtain mung bean starch would be by mail
order on the web.

<< As you can see, it does greatly resemble baklava, and Perry and others
believe that it is a "proto-baklava".

Kiri >>

<<< I have found two omissions.

First: In step 2 one fries the batter. I assume one uses butter or oil that
is not mentioned in the recipe. So i've added it into the ingredients. Which
did you prefer, Kiri? >>>

To be honest, I don't remember.  I suspect we probably used butter or ghee
as it would have been more common then.

<<< Second: 1/16 cup Water is listed among the ingredients. That is 1
Tablespoon (an easier way to measure than by the cup :-). However, it is not
included anywhere in the recipe. Logically it could be used either in the
batter for the "crepes" or it could be used to thin the honey. So i'm
wondering where it goes, Kiri. >>>

If it goes anywhere, it would be in the batter...we probably added it in to
thin out the batter enough to make it form the very thin pancakes that make
this work.

<<< Third: Kiri mentioned an article by Charles Perry and Paul Buell discussing bakalava/proto-baklava/gullach. At the time she posted, she didn't have the reference.

Am i correct in thinking that the source is:
Charles Perry, "The Taste for Layered Bread among the Nomadic Turks and the
Central Asian Origins of Baklava," in "A Taste of Thyme: Culinary Cultures
of the Middle East", Sami Zubaida and Richard Tapper (eds.) (1994) ISBN-10:
1860646034. >>>

I'm not sure where I would have gotten information about an article by Perry
and Buell.  The only reference I can find in my notes is information
obtained from Dr. Buell...and I suspect, though I don't have a copy of the
email message, that it was in one of several email exchanges I had with him
at the time I originally worked on recipes from "Soup."

Kiri


Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 13:11:08 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Trdelnick query

Talana wrote:
<<< Synchronicity strikes: I was trying out a new Middle Eastern restaurant yesterday, and wouldn't you know it, their baklava was made around a rod. I hadn't seen that before. >>>

Was it actually made around a rod?

Or was it just the kind in which the layers of phyllo are laid flat, the filling is sprinkled near one edge in a long line, and then it is rolled into a cylinder, baked, and cut into more-or-less finger long pieces?

A quick google suggested that the cylindrical kind is common modernly in Turkey and Greece, whereas the flat layered kind cut into diamonds or squares is more typical of Syria and Lebanon and, i guess, Iran, where they use fewer layers.

There's also a Moroccan pastry called Hancha which is made with a thin pastry like phyllo called warqa, that is filled with crushed almonds, rolled into a cylinder, baked, and cut into slices - very similar to a period Lauzinaj i made a long time ago using modern phyllo rather than yufka or uber-thin ruqaq.

Someone sometimes called Urtatim

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	baklava-msg	25 of 34