turkeys-msg - 1/16/08 The history and use of turkeys in Europe in the Rennaisance. NOTE: See also the files: chicken-msg, peacocks-msg, duck-goose-msg, fowls-a-birds-msg, birds-recipes-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:20:16 -0600 From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com> Subject: SC - RE: Turkeys >I seem to remember other references that suggest that they were reasonably >common domestic fowl in England post 1550. Common enough that records exist >of them being driven to market and prices quoted. If there is enough >interest I will research this further and find the specific references in my >collection. Please remember that with this fowl there is some historical >confusion with the Guinea Hen. >Daniel Raoul While there is some confusion with the Guinea hen in written records, their depiction in art is not, The birds look completely different from each other. Even in the 16th century Paduan manuscript, it is hard to deny the characteristic red head and wattles of the American turkey from all other European fowl. That is why it is critical in the evaluation; as a visual primary source, it is unambiguous. What is also important is that this particular painting is of a peasant class woman taking assorted fowl to market to sell. This is prima facae evidence of turkeys being in common domestic production early on. Another important point to note is that there is no evidence concerning the use of turkey eggs that I know of in period documents. This would be very consistant with actually hatching the valuable eggs for meat production and more quickly spreading the poultry breeding stock which was doubtless in heavy demand. It would have been such with the rapid displacement of peacock, swan and crane (according to some authors) by the turkey. This is especially true if they were in adequate supply to provide a large number of them by 1553 for a Catherine d' Medici feast of some note. At least what I am seeing now is consistant with this premise. I believe that we, as an organized group of cooks, should pursue the topic of turkeys and potatoes to the fullest and make some kind of document of the findings for publication, perhaps TI. We, as a group, have the advantage over independant researchers in that we have an international base, especially those of us in Europe, to find the documentation (or lack thereof) in many different languages. Particularly important also is that several of you good gentles, SCA or not, read period language doucumentaion with some facility. It has always been somewhat absurd to me, if early New World foods, with the economy of turkey in particular, are so seldom seen at feast. I for one would rather have a good slice of turkey at feast than most of the bad chicken legs and thighs I have been served over the years in the name of budget. Likewise, I would not mind having a potato in lieu of some of the godawful and obscure vegetables that some cooks have put before me in their desperation for period veggies recipes. Akim Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 09:44:18 -0500 From: Margo Farnsworth <mfarnsworth at mfgraffix.com> Subject: SC - Turkey recipe - slightly OOP (was RE: Turkeys) I have adapted an adaptation of a French recipe from "Le Cvisinier francois", by Francois La Varenne (1654). I don't speak (or read) French, so I went under the assumption that the adaptation given in the book "Savoring the Past, The French Kitchen and Table from 1300 to 1789", by Barbara Ketcham Wheaton was not too far off the mark. Here is the recipe in French (hopefully without too many typos): Poulet d'Inde a la framboise farcy (I know that this translated is something like Indian chicken (turkey) stuffed with raspberries) Apres qu'il est habille levez en le brichet et tirez la chair, que vous hacherez avec graisse, et peu de chair de veau, que vous meslerez ensemble avec des jaunes d'oeufs et de pigeonneaux et le tout bien assaisonne, vous remplirez vostre poulet-d'Inde, avec sel, poivre, clou battu, et capres, puis le mettez a la broche, et le ferez tourner bien doucement, estant presque cuit tirez-le et let mettez dans une terrine avec de bon bouillon, champignons et un bouquet. Pour lier la sauce, prenez un peu de lard coupe, le faites passer par la poesle, lequel estant fondu vous tirerez, et y meslerez un peu de farine, que vous laisserez bien roussir et delayerez avec peu de bouillon et de vinaigre; la mettez ensuite dans vostre terrine avec jus de citron, et servez; si c'est en temps des framboises, vous y mettrez une poignee par dessus. The recipe translation calls for removing the meat from the skeleton while leaving the skin intact. The skeleton is also removed from the skin. Then the forcemeat is made and put back into the skin and the whole thing is roasted on a spit. We are planning on making this for a feast for 150 people, and could not imagine doing that process on that scale. So, I have adapted it to a terrine. Here is my adaptation: Turkey terrine (serves 12, makes 2 loaves) 3 lbs. Boneless turkey 1.5 lbs. Boneless chicken (thighs are good) .75 lbs. Boneless veal 1 lb. Bacon 4 egg yolks 2 tsp. Salt 1 tbsp. Pepper 1/4 tsp. Ground cloves 3 tbsp. Capers 2 quarts chicken stock 1.5 lbs. Mushrooms (24 oz.), sliced 2 tsp. Rosemary 1/2 tsp. Thyme 1 bay leaf 2 tbsp. Butter 1/4 c. flour 1 tbsp. Wine vinegar 1 tbsp. Lemon juice 1 pint fresh or frozen raspberries Grind turkey, chicken, veal and 1/2 lb. of the bacon. Add egg yolks, salt, pepper, cloves and capers and mix thoroughly. Divide between 2 loaf pans and cover with remaining 1/2 lb. bacon. Bake at 350 for 1 hour 20 minutes. Meanwhile, saute the mushrooms in the butter until limp. Add the flour to make a roux. Slowly add the chicken stock, stirring constantly (I also add the drippings from the loaf pan). Add the rosemary, thyme and bay leaf and simmer over medium heat until it becomes a thick sauce. Remove from heat and add the vinegar & lemon juice just before serving. Slice the terrine and place on a platter. Spoon the sauce over and garnish with the raspberries. We are precooking the feast, so we made this last weekend and froze it. We ended up using canned mushrooms (I was horrified when the person who did the shopping opted for this over fresh), but it worked out pretty well. The fresh mushrooms made the sauce very dark, whereas the canned kept it a beautiful creamy gold color. We also made all of the terrines on one day and drained their juices into a large pot before freezing them. We let this juice separate and used the fat instead of butter to make the roux. We used the broth from this juice instead of the chicken stock, and added the canned mushrooms with their liquid. The result was better tasting than the original adaptation. This dish will be served as part of the feast for K&Q Bardic Championship in Concordia of the Snows (Albany, NY) in the Kingdom of the East on March 11. Faoiltighearna (waiting for the bashing on it being slightly out of period and served at a SCA feast) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 04:07:28 +0100 From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE> Subject: SC - New World Foods-rant (was: turkey) <<< "It has always been somewhat absurd to me, if early New World foods, with the economy of turkey in particular, are so seldom seen at feast." I don't find this absurd at all. (...) the 'medieval' atmosphere that most feasts and event settings are trying to achieve (...) item for high ranking noblemen >>> If you only want to have "medieval"-type recipes, it would be more appropriate to just choose a different year for the end of the period, say, 1480. -- I am sure it was chilling for 16th century people to get some of the 'exotic' food stuff. Marx Rumpolt in his German-language but international-in-spirit "New Kochbuch" ('New cookbook', 1581) has several banquets for all kinds of noblemen and other people like citizens and peasants. Now, what's interesting, is, that _all_ the banquets for noblemen have at least one dish with "Jndianischen Hanen", which was, if I am not mistaken, one of the earlier German expressions for "turkey". -- Would some kind soul please look at the picture provided in the Rumpolt-cookbook and comment on the kind of bird that is depicted there? If you do not have access to a Rumpolt copy, the picture is also at: http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/rump66p.htm Rumpolt gives 20 recipes/ mentions 20 kinds of dishes for "Jndianische Henn" and "Jndianischen Han" in the recipe section of his book. The order of the banquets follows an order from the highest to the lower noblemen (Keyser, Knige, Churfrsten, Ertzhertzogen, Grafen und Herren, Edelleut). One of the dishes for "Edelleut", the lower noblemen, is: "EJn gebratenen Jndianischen Hanen" (p.35). Thus, it seems to me that noblemen even of the lower ranks were eating "Jndianischen Han" at certain events in the late 16th century. On the other hand, there are no such dishes in the "Bancket der Brger", the banquet/ menue of the citizens. ["since all members of the SCA are considered nobility"] Best, Thomas Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:18:36 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - New World Foods-rant (was: turkey) > Marx Rumpolt in his German-language but international-in-spirit "New > Kochbuch" ('New cookbook', 1581) has several banquets for all kinds of > noblemen and other people like citizens and peasants. Now, what's > interesting, is, that _all_ the banquets for noblemen have at least one > dish with "Jndianischen Hanen", which was, if I am not mistaken, one of > the earlier German expressions for "turkey". -- Would some kind soul > please look at the picture provided in the Rumpolt-cookbook and comment > on the kind of bird that is depicted there? If you do not have access to > a Rumpolt copy, the picture is also at: > http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/rump66p.htm > > Thomas It is definitely not Numida melegaris (guinea fowl). It looks more like Meleagris gallopavo (North American turkey) than Agriocharis ocellata (Central American turkey). The problem is that Agriocharis ocellata is the turkey which was brought back to Europe around 1523. It would be interesting to find the provenance of the illustration. Bear Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:11:31 EST From: ChannonM at aol.com Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #1887 Ok, how's about the idea of substituting turkey for "Bustard", it was driven out of existence I believe. I nor anyone else I know has tasted "Bustard" but it was purportedly an upwards of 40lbs flightless land bird. Recipes can be found in several medieval sources such as "A Forme of Cury" 1390 (IIRC) and others but I can't seem to find them at the moment. According to Websters New Collegiate 1949 Bustard-avis tarda (slow bird), any of a family (Otididae) of Old World and Australian game birds related to both cranes and plovers esp the Great Bustard (Otis tarda) the largest European land bird. Considering the availability of cranes and plovers, seems like it would be an acceptable substitute. Hauviette The turkey is of course from a entirely different family (Meleagridae), but hey, has anyone tasted Bustard lately? Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:48:45 -0600 From: Magdalena <magdlena at earthlink.net> Subject: SC - Turkeys in Tusser Thomas Tusser _500 Good Points of Husbandry_ (1571) From May's Husbandry: Grass, thistle, and mustard-seed, hemlock and bur, tine, mallow, and nettle, that keep such a stur; With peacock and turkey, that nibble off top, are very ill neighbors, to seely poor hop. Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:34:48 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: SC - turkeys again While reading in Food: A Culinary History, I came across the following: " The slow rate at which American foods were generally adopted is typical of the process of culinary change in early modern society. Yet some species gained acceptance much more quickly than others, or more quickly in certain regions than in others. Indeed, the turkey caught on with amazing speed. Discovered by Cortez and his men in Mexico about 1520, the "Indian chicken" was mentioned by Rabelais in his Gargantua (1534). And we know that Marguerite d'Angouleme contracted with a farmer in Navarre to raise turkeys for her table. At a banquet given by Catherine de' Medici at the bishopric of Paris in 1549, seventy "Indian Chickens" costing 20 sols apiece and seven "Indian roosters" costing 30 sols were served. The most surprising thing is that these prices were already markedly below the prices for native birds such as peacock and heron (40 sols), pheasant and bustard (70 sols), crane (80 sols), swan (100 sols) and so on. The turkey was accepted almost from the moment it arrived because all sorts of large birds were served on aristocratic tables, including some that we consider inedible, such as cormorant, stork, heron, crane, swan and peacock. Hence there was no problem with introducing the turkey, which was large, decorative, and tasty in the opinion of satisfied consumers both then and now. " Similar arguments can be advanced to explain the relatively rapid acceptance of corn by millet eaters and of string beans by those already accustomed to the old European variety. If the pace of change in these cases was slower that in the case of the turkey, it was not because the common folk were less open to new foods than were members of the elite; it may be quite simply that the sources paid less attention to what the poor ate than to what the rich ate." Flandrin, Jean-Louis, "Introduction: The Early Modern Period", pp. 358-359, Food: A Culinary History. Unfortunately, this Introduction was not foot-noted, so I don't know the source for Catherine's banquet list. I'm curious to find out what the original says, as the version of the list which appears in Larousse lists "66 India hens". So question 1 is, what is the primary source of the banquet list? I can not find any reference to Marguerite d'Angouleme in my library, but anyone who contracts for raising turkeys in this time frame is certainly of interest to the culinary historian. Question 2 is, what biographical information is there about Marguerite d'Angouleme? I'm a little hesitant to accept Flandrin's arguments, but I would like to verify the facts he puts forward. Bear Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 15:50:05 -0400 From: "Gaylin Walli" <gwalli at infoengine.com> Subject: SC - Marguerite d'Angouleme Bear asked: >Question 2 is, what biographical >information is there about Marguerite d'Angouleme? Well, to the best of my knowledge, she was a princess of Navarre, so I'd say there was a hell of a lot of biographical information available about her. MRLIAH, however. :) A quick search of the web reveals that there are quite a few publications out regarding her correspondence (some even translated into English). >I'm a little hesitant to accept Flandrin's arguments, but I would like to >verify the facts he puts forward. Well, now that you've piqued my interest (damn you!) I'll have to see what my Gods and Godesses of ILL can dig up for me. jasmine Iasmin de Cordoba Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 01:24:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: SC - SC- Turkeys again, Again! This is what the Oxford Companion of Food says about turkeys: When turkeys reached the Old World, they appear (unlike other foods from the Americas, such as tomatoes and potatoes) to have diffused swiftly and been consumed enthusiastically. In England in 1541, they were cited amongst large birds such as cranes and swans in sumptuary laws; their prices had been fixed in the London markets by the mid-1550s; and Tussar (1557) spoke of feeding turkeys on runcivall pease, and of eating them at Christmas. Liliane Plouvier, in a learned paper (of the 1980s) about the early history of turkeys in Europe, found that Queen Marguerite of Navarre is recorded to have raised turkeys at Alencon in 1534; and 66 turkeys were served at a feast for Catherine de'Medici in 1549. In Belgium, turkey prepared three different ways (boiled with oysters; roast and served cold; and in a pasty) was served in 1557 at a banquet held in Liege. Reasons for this speedy acceptance are not hard to find. The turkey would have been seen as similar to the domestic poultry familiar in Europe since ancient times, and confused with guinea-fowl; and there anyway a firm medieval precedent for eating all sorts of fowl, wild and tame, large and small. [snip] When it came to cooking turkeys, they were rapidly assimilated into various styles of cuising contemporary with their arrival in Europe. Plouvier, examining early recipes, found that there were several for turkey in Italy by 1570 (e.g. in Scappi's 'Opera dell'arte del cucinare'); besides being spit roasted, made into paupiettes or little poached quenelles, they could be stuffed, stuck with cloves, encased in a coarse crust with the head exposed, and baked. Recipes were published in Germany by the 1580s, but the turkey recipes only appeared in France during the 'culinary renaissance' of the 17th century, when La Varenne gave several recipes, including one requiring a truffle-perfumed bouillon. In England, turkeys were being made into pies during the reign of Elizabeth I, and soon afterwards Gervase Markham (1615) recommended that they should be roast, and served with a sauce of onions, flavoured with claret, orange juice, and lemon peel. Huette Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 02:27:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: SC - SC- Turkeys again, Again! - --- "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> wrote: > I've reviewed Tannehill, Trager, and Toussaint-Samat and while they express > the opinion the turkey was widely adopted early, they present little proof > for the assertion. The original documentation in this case should help > support their assertions. > > Bear According the the Oxford Companion to Food, it was Liliane Plouvier in her paper entitled "Introduction de la dinde en Europe", who found the documentation. According to the bibliography, her paper was published in Brussels circa 1980. When I get to work tomorrow, I will look up libraries who have this paper in their collection. Of course, you will have to be able to read French to read it ... Huette Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:54:42 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - 90 ingredients Holloptrida translation >>IIRC, Rumpolt has a woodcut of a North American turkey in the book. That would suggest Jndianischer Han means a New World turkey rather than a guinea fowl.<< The interesting point is the woodcut appears to be Meleagris gallapavo, the North American woodland turkey of U.S. Thanksgiving Day fame. The turkey that was probably available at the time was the Central American turkey, Agriocharis ocellata, which was brought to Europe by Cortez. Bear Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:16:34 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - 90 ingredients Holloptrida translation > <<The interesting point is the woodcut appears to be Meleagris gallapavo, the > North American woodland turkey of U.S. Thanksgiving Day fame. The turkey > that was probably available at the time was the Central American turkey, > Agriocharis ocellata, which was brought to Europe by Cortez.<< > > Bear, > As I wouldn't know the difference, how would it affect our cooking? > Size, taste, etc" The woodland turkey is a game bird and, to my knowledge, not domesticated. There are people who find them much tastier than the domestic turkey. The turkey you buy at the grocery is a Central American turkey. For our purposes, store bought commercial turkey is probably the best choice. > Gwen-Cat or Thomas, do either of you know when the woodcut was made and > added to Rumpold's book? Is there evidence that the woodcuts are as old > as the recipes? > Allison, allilyn at juno.com Vincenzo Campi's The Poultry Seller (Cremona) is roughly contemporaneous with Rumpolt's work (no more than 10 years difference) and it has a Central American turkey rather prominently displayed in the woman's lap. Bear Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:48:32 EDT From: allilyn at juno.com Subject: Re: SC -poultry art, was 90 ingredients Holloptrida translation >> The woodland turkey is a game bird and, to my knowledge, not domesticated. There are people who find them much tastier than the domestic turkey.<< Nice to know that we have the citations for both kinds, even in the very end of period. I was planning to include a can of turkey in my demo exhibit--the food game--next week but might not. Commercial turkey farms seem to specialize in a white-feathered bird, which is, I suppose, the SA. The traditional Pilgrim-type darkly variegated feathered bird would be the game bird, then? Looking thru some illustrated books, I find Bernardo Strozzi's (1581-1644) _The Cook_, in the Palazzo Rosso in Genoa, includes turkeys (white) waiting to be picked. This painting is probably OOP, but gives a look at turkeys more period than the super-breasted modern hybrids. It's in G. Riley's _Renaissance Recipes_. Allison, allilyn at juno.com Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:04:08 +0200 From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE> Subject: SC - Rumpolt woodcuts (was: 90 ingredients ...) Allison, << Gwen-Cat or Thomas, do either of you know when the woodcut was made and added to Rumpold's book? Is there evidence that the woodcuts are as old as the recipes? >> there are several Rumpolt versions: among the printed versions are copies from 1581, 1587 and 1604 (Vicaire mentions copies from 1582 and 1586, too), and a manuscript dedication copy to Rudolf II., now in the NB Vienna. We all rely on the 1581 edition, because there is a reprint, though there are rumors of a potatoe recipe in the 1587 edition... Now, the woodcuts we have, were printed at the same time with the recipes, in 1581. A few of them were taken from earlier culinary works, and a few were repeated in different sections, too. Clearly, there is some evidence, that Rumpolt had a handwritten collection of recipes before ("auch etlich Jar ein gewisse Formul bey mir verzeichnet vnnd beschrieben gehabt"; Vorrede), but we (or at least I) know nothing about it. Also I do not know whether or not the dedication copy to Rudolf II. antedates the first printed edition or not. Wiswe says, it is an "Abschrift". In any case, it would be worthwile to compare the pictures. So, if anybody comes to Vienna, don't forget to visit the "sterreichische Nationalbibliothek" and call for the dedication copy of Rumpolt for Rudolf II. ... Thomas Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:19:18 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC -poultry art, was 90 ingredients Holloptrida translation > Commercial turkey farms seem to specialize in a white-feathered bird, > which is, I suppose, the SA. The traditional Pilgrim-type darkly > variegated feathered bird would be the game bird, then? The white birds are definitely domestic turkeys, but the Central American turkey also comes in the greys and browns. The key visual differences seem to be a broader spread of upturned tail feathers on the North American bird. The NA turkey being a woodland animal holds its body roughly horizontal to the ground while the CA turkey holds itself more erect to see over plains grasses. BTW, I have encountered what I believe to be undomesticated members of both species in Oklahoma, where there is a boundary between the eastern hardwood forests and the Great Plains habitats. > Haven't yet found Vincenzo Campi's The Poultry Seller (Cremona). I know > there were URLs posted giving web sites for food paintings, but can't > find the citations. Anybody else have them handy? > > Allison, allilyn at juno.com I don't know of any URL for The Poultry Seller. We have a rather extensive collection of works on art. And I produced a transparency for a lecture on Food in Renaissance Art. Bear Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 17:46:34 +1000 From: "Drake & Meliora" <meliora at macquarie.matra.com.au> Subject: SC - Vincenzo Campi's The Poultry Seller Allison, > Haven't yet found Vincenzo Campi's The Poultry Seller (Cremona). I know > there were URLs posted giving web sites for food paintings, but can't > find the citations. Anybody else have them handy? There is a copy of this painting in the hardback copy of Elizabeth David's Italian Food (page 155). Meliora. Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 21:53:50 -0500 From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com> Subject: RE:SC -poultry art, was 90 ingredients Holloptrida translation Allison writes: >>>>Commercial turkey farms seem to specialize in a white-feathered bird, which is, I suppose, the SA. The traditional Pilgrim-type darkly variegated feathered bird would be the game bird, then? Looking thru some illustrated books, I find Bernardo Strozzi's (1581-1644) _The Cook_, in the Palazzo Rosso in Genoa, includes turkeys (white) waiting to be picked. This painting is probably OOP, but gives a look at turkeys more period than the super-breasted modern hybrids. It's in G. Riley's _Renaissance Recipes_.<<<< Allison, I'm looking at the same painting you cite in G. Riley I don't see any white (like the modern supermarket type) feathered turkey. The two hanging are dark birds like the NA. If you are referring to the birds the lady is plucking, they are either geese or swans I think. Actually there are other paintings in G. Riley that I have mentioned previously that I think are more important than Strozzi's. On page 42, the obviously NA turkey is quite prominent. More interesting to me in any argument about early turkey breeding by peasants is the countrywoman on page 57 with the NA turkey in her basket. I would say again this lends credability to widespread turkey consumption in Italy (judging from the garb- Paduan) in the mid- sixteenth century. I wish someone could get a firm date on the source manuscript for THAT depiction. Lack of written recipes does not preclude such an early use in the sixteenth century of NA turkey. Akim Yaroslavich Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:22:38 -0700 From: "E. Rain" <raghead at liripipe.com> Subject: SC - turkeys in art Giamboldona??? did a turkey sculpture in bronze c. 1600 that's in the Bargello in Florence. http://www.liripipe.com/travel/index.cgi# scroll aboiut 2/3 of the way down the index for the turkey photo in the Florence 1998 section Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:26:32 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC -poultry art, was 90 ingredients Holloptrida translation I finally got my hands on some illustrations and descriptions of Agriocharis ocellata and Melegaris gallopavo. A. ocellata (which has been renamed M. ocellata) appears to be slightly smaller than most gallopavos, has "eyes" on its tail feathers, and no "beard". Their range is also smaller than I was lead to believe. Head is blue with wattles, but a couple illustrations show a white head. M. gallopavo has five wild varieties. The males and many females have "beards," an appendage hanging from their breast. The heads and upper necks have a variety of colors purple to red, blue and white. There is usually a pronounced "snood" or fleshy appendage above the beak. They range in size from the relatively small M. g. silvestris, the Eastern Woodland turkey, to M. g. gallopavo and M. g. intermedia, large plains birds. M. g. gallopavo is the Mexican turkey also called Gould's turkey, and probably the bird brought back by Cortez. M. g. intermedia is the Rio Grande turkey and probably what I mistook for M. ocellata. The other two varieties are M.g. merriami, Merriam's turkey from the U.S. Southwest, and M. g. osceola, the Florida turkey. The white turkeys are modern hybrids. While trying to find more information, I chanced across the turkey census for the Society for the Preservation of Poultry Antiquities which contains a wealth of information. You can find it at: http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/SPPA/TurkCensusRept.html For Stefan and some of our other members in Texas, apparently the San Antonio zoo has some specimens of M. ocellata. Bear Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:08:49 -0600 (MDT) From: grasse at mscd.edu (Martina Grasse) Subject: SC - Rumpolt's turkeys Hi all, and especially Allison, I did not have all the files I needed to clean up the 90 indgredient mega-recipe, but I did have almost all I needed to process the turkey chapter so here it is. There a a few puzzling terms (Pobrat, gebehten), but I think I got most of it. As usual feedback appreciated! In service to the dream Gwen Cat von Berlin Indianishen Hen Pg. LXVIa Turkey I. Warm abgebraten mit einem Pobrat/ oder trucken gegeben/ Oder kalt lassen werden/ denn es ist ein gut Essen/ wen{n}s kalt ist. I. Warm roasted off with a [sauce???]/ or served dry/ Or let it (get) cold/ because it is a good meal/ when it is cold. 2. Pasteten kalt oder warm. 2. Pasties (pies) cold or warm. 3. Gliedt den Indianischen Han ab/ Flu:egel vnd Diech/ fu:ell einjeglichs besonders/ vnd wenns gefu:ellt ist/ so setz es zu/ vnd lasz an die statt sieden/ Legs auff ein Roszt/ breuns ab/ vnd mach ein Bru:eh darzu/ es sey saur oder su:esz/ ist es auff beyde manier gut. 3. Dismember the turkey/ (remove) wings and thighs (legs too??)/ stuff each especially/ and when they are stuffed/ so put them to (water?)/ and let them simmer till done/ Lay them on a rack/ brown them/ and make a broth thereto/ be it sour our sweet/ it is good both ways. 4. Du kanst solche gefu:ellte Flu:egel auch eynmachen mit Pettersilgen Wurtzel/ guter Muscatenblu:et vnd Rinstfleischbru:eh/ auch mit gru:enen wolschmeckenden Kra:eutern. Du magst gelb machen oder weisz lassen/ so ist es auff beyde manier gut. 4. You can also prepare such stuffed wings with parsley root/ good Nutmeg blossom (Mace) and beef broth/ also with green welltasting herbs. You may make it yellow (with saffron) or leave it white/ so it is good both ways. 5. Du kanst auch solche gefu:ellte Flu:egel vnd Diech in einem Pfeffer eynmachen. 5. You may also prepare such stuffed wings and thighs in a pepper (sauce.) 6. Oder kansts gru:en eynmachen mit Pettersilgen/ die wol gesotten vn{d} durchgestrichen ist/ von einem gebehten Schnitten Weck/ mit einer Rindtfleischbru:eh/ sampt der Pettersilgen vnd Lebern. Wu:ertz es ab mit Saffran vnd Pfeffer/ schaw dasz du es nicht verwu:ertzest noch versaltzest/ so ist es gut vnd wolgeschmack. 6. or you can prepare it green with parsley/ well cooked and pressed through (a sieve)/ from a GEBEHTEN sliced loaf (of bread)/ with a beef broth/ along with the parsley and livers. Season it with saffron and pepper/ be careful that you don't overseason nor oversalt/ so it is good and welltasting 7. Nimm ein halbe Brust/ die roh ist/ unnd mach Kndel darau / es sey gelb oder wei 7. Take half a breast / that is raw/ and make meatballs (dumplings) of it/ be it yellow or white. 8. Mach ausz der aundern halben Brust/ die gesotten ist/ ein gestossens/ magst weisz lassen/ oder gru:en machen/ mit gru:ener Pettersilgen/ die gesotte{n}/ vnd mit guter Hennenbru:eh durchgestrichen ist/ auch mit gebeht Schnitten/ so ist es gut vnd wolgeschmack. 8. Make from the other half breast/ that is cooked/ a crushed (like a mash???)/ (you) may leave it white/ or make it green/ with green parsley/ that (is) cooked/ and with good chicken broth pressed through (a sieve)/ also mit GEBEHT slices (of bread)/ so it is good and welltasting. 9. Du magst auch wol ein gehack darausz machen/ ist es weisz/ so nim{b} ein lautere Hennengru:eh/ Ist es aber gebraten/ so nim{b} ein braune Bru:eh/ die du von einem Braten hast abgegossen/ mit einer Hennenbru:eh/ die fein lindt gesaltzen ist. Wenn man es wil anss ein Tisch anrichten/ so druckt man darein saur Pomerantzensafft/ so wirt es gut vnd lieblich. 9. You may well also make a gehack [OK, am not sure which way to go with this one part of me says like a chopped meat (kinda like Salisbury steak, and part of me says it is already cooked, so you chopped the cooked meat small and that is what he means... is there a term for that? And what do you all think???] of it/ if it is white/ so take a clear chicken broth/ but if it is roasted/ so take a brown broth (gravy)/ that you poured off from a roast/ with a chicken broth/ that is mildly salted. When you wish to prepare it for the table/ so press therein sour sour-orange juice/ so it will be good and lovely. 11. Du kanst auch ausz der Brust kleine Pasteten machen. 11. You can also make small pies (pasties) from the breast. 12. Oder auch Spanische Pasteten. 12. Or also Spanish pasties (pies.) 13. Auch Spanische Krapffen. 13. Also Spanish crullers (fritters.) 14. Du kanst auch Manscho Blancko ausz der Brust machen/ wie vorhin vermeldt ist. 14. You can also make Mansho Blancko (blancmange) of the breast/ as was mentioned earlier. 15. Ausz dem Manscho Blancko kanstu machen ein Ungarische Turten. 15. From such a blancmange you can make Hungarian tortes. 16. Oder ein Spanische Turten. 16. Or a Spanish torte. 17. Auch ein Spanische Pasteten. (Seems to be a repeat of #12???) 17. Also a Spanish pastie (pie.) 18. Krapffen zum backen. Nim{b} Mehl/ warmes Wasser/ vnnd ein wenig Butter vnd Saltz/ mach das Mehl damit ab/ vnnd mach ein Teig darausz/ nicht gar zu dick/ dasz du jhn ausztreibest mit einem Walger/ schlag den Manscho Blancko darein/ vnd mach Krapffen darausz/ nim{b} heisse Butter/ vnd backs fein ku:ehl ausz/ dasz fein weisz bleibet/ vnnd nicht braun/ so wirdt der Teig resch vnd gut. Wen{n} du es anrichtest/ so bestra:ew es mit weissem Zucker. 18. To bake crullers (fritters.) Take flour/ warm water/ and a little butter and salt/ combine it with the flour/ and make a dough therefrom/ not too thick/ that you can spread it out with a roller/ enclose the blancmange thering/ and make a fritter (cruller) therefrum/ take hot butter/ and fry it nicely cool (as in not too high a heat)/ that it stays nicely white/ and does not brown/ so the dough becomes crispy and good. When you serve it/ so sprinkle it with white sugar. 19. Mach auch ein Musz ausz dem Manscho Blancko. Nim{b} dz Manscho Blancko/ vnd theils mit Eyern ab/ vn{d} mit su:esser Milch nim{b} ein Schu:essel/ vn{d} schmier die am Boden mit Butter/ die kalt ist/ thu darnach das Musz in die Schu:essel/ scheubs in ein Ofen/ vnd backs/ so wirt es feinAufflauffen/ vn{d} wenn du es anrichtest/ so bestra:ew es mit Zucker/ so wirt es gut. 19. Make also a Musz [there is that word ;-) I would say mash - think applesauce] of the blancmange. Take the blankemange/ and combine it with eggs/ and with sweet milk (as opposed to sour) take a bowl/ and smear the bottom with butter/ that is cold/ put thereafter the mash in the bowl/ put it in the oven/ and bake it/ so it becomes a nice casserole/ and when you serve it/ so sprinkle it with sugar/ so it will be good. 20. Du kanst auch von einem Indianischen Han ein lauter Brh zurichten/ und mehr als vierzig spei/ die nicht klein seind/ kochen. Du kanst dazu nemmen Magen/ Leber/ D 0rm und den Schwei. Und du darffst nichts davon wegwerffen/ kanst alles zu nuz machen. 20. You can also from a turkey prepare a clear broth/ and (cook) more than forty dishes (servings)/ that are not small/. You can use the stomach (gizzard)/ liver/ intestines and the blood. You may not throw any of it away/ can make use of it all. Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:35:19 -0400 (EDT) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com Subject: SC - Waffles, Turkey, and Trifle Greetings. Recently, there were posts (if my feeble brain recalls correctly) about period documentation for waffles, turkey and trifle. While bumming around during my vacation I came across some of each and thought I'd post in case there still was interest - or it hadn't been settled. <snip of waffle info> The turkey recipe is in _The Good Huswifes Jewell_, Thomas Dawson, 1596. "To bake a Turkie and take out his bones". "Take a fat Turkie, and after you have scalded him and washed him cleane, lay him upon a faire cloth and slit him through out the backs, and when you have taken out his garbage, then you must take out his bones so bare as you can, when you have so donne wash him cleane, then trusse him and bricke his backe together, and so have a faire kettle of seething water and berboyle him a little, then take him up that the water may runne cleane out from him, and when he is colde, season him with pepper and Salt, and then pricke hym with a few cloves in the breast, and also drawe him with larde if you like of it, and when you have maide your coffin and laide your Turkie in it, then you must put some Butter in it, and so close him up, in this sorte you may bake a goose, a Pheasant, or capon." Nothing about roasted turkey legs! <snip of trifle info - See desserts-msg> Alys Katharine Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:36:21 -0500 From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com> Subject: SC - More Turkeys I came across two more mid 16th century drawings this week that I had not seen before depicting obvious New World turkeys. These are by the Flemish artist Peter Bruegel the Elder. One is "Envy" in the famous 7 Deadly Sins series, This was drawn in 1557 and the turkey is the central animal figure, apparently already well known as a symbol of "Envy" much as the peacock accompanies Pride in another. The other drawing is in "Fortitude" in the Seven Virtues drawings. The turkey is being slain as one of the monsters of Sin. This drawing was also executed in 1557. Just another example of evidence of the turkey being well known in most of Europe by the mid 16th century. Akim Yaroslavich Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 20:19:19 GMT From: "Vincent Cuenca" <bootkiller at hotmail.com> Subject: SC - Spanish recipe requests (long!) Vi saluto, Marcello! As far as New World foodstuffs go, Ruperto de Nola's "Libro de Cozina" features instructions for carving turkeys, as well as a sauce recipe: "Carving of Birds and Firstly of Turkeys: Turkey is carved in this manner: remove the neck with the head, and then pull off the tail, and remove the feet, and then the wing tips, and then the right leg, and slice it fine. Then make a cut in the right breast, and take thick and thin slices, although some cut the breast thick like beef, especially when the meat is somewhat tough, and then turn it and cut it again on the other side, and on the rump there is another cut, which is to make it into thick slices, and remove the hips beforehand, and then remove the wings, and do it in such a way that carving the turkey leaves the carcass whole and without any meat left." "Spices for Turkey Sauce: Cinnamon four ounces, cloves one ounce, ginger one ounce; enough saffron to tint the sauce well; grind and sift it well; some add grains of paradise." "To Make Sauce For Turkey: For five serving bowls take a pound of toasted almonds; and grind them well in a mortar; and take the livers of turkeys or capons or chickens that have been cooked in a pot and grind them with the almonds; and then take the crumb of a loaf that has been soaked in orange juice or white vinegar, and the bread should be toasted; and then grind it all together with the almonds and the livers, and when it is all ground together thin the sauce with two egg yolks for each serving bowl; and then pass it through a sieve with the aforementioned fine spices, and once it has been strained, put it in a pot with the sugar and taste it for bitterness, which should not be excessive and then cook it until it is just done, and when it is done prepare the serving bowls and put sugar and cinnamon on the sauce." The translations are my own; unfortunately I haven't done any redactions yet. I'm just trying to get the darn thing into English! I hope this helps some; I can send more if you e-mail me privately. Saludos, Vicente Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:55:15 -0500 From: harper at idt.net Subject: SC - Recipe: stewed turkey with fruit As I've mentioned before, Granado (1599) has a few recipes for "pollos de las Indias", which AFAIK, is turkey. Here's one. It's out of the section on cooking for invalids, hence the reference to the doctor. Para sudar, y estufar perdizes, y faysanes To sweat, and to stew partridges and pheasants Take the pheasant, or the partridge, which should not be old or rancid, and clean their insides, cutting off the head, and the feet, and pass it through boiling water, or through the coals; take a copper pot, well tinned, or of glazed earthenware, with a bone from a calf or cow made into pieces, which has marrow, which is done to give it flavor; put in enough water to cover it three fingers deep, with a splinter of whole cinnamon, and a good deal of salt, and a few pieces of quince, and prunes, and dried cherries; and make it boil with the cover very well sealed, but before sealing it, you can put in half a cup of wine of San Martin, or another which is good, with a little vinegar, and sugar, all according to the order which the doctor directs, and cook it over the coals, far from the flames. In this manner you can also cook the pullet of the Indies, and our ordinary pullets, and any good bird. Notes: "wine of San Martin" probably refers to wine from the vineyards of San Martin de Valdeiglesias, near Madrid. It was very highly regarded in this period. I have seen wine of San Martin called for in period recipes that suggest a sweet white as an alternative. If quinces are no longer available, perhaps a tart apple like a Granny Smith will do? Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 00:51:46 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: SC - La Varenne's turkey Here's the French text of the La Varenne turkey recipe, as per Wheaton's "Savoring the Past". Wheaton provides an adapted recipe in English, but no translation of the original. As you all grit your teeth in anticipation of some wonderful butchering, I'm sure I can rely on you all to tell me where I'm wrong. Here goes, La Varenne's recipe, my attempt at translation: Apres qu'il est habille' levez en le brichet et tirez la chair, que vous hacherez avec graisse, et peu de chair de veau, que vous meslerez ensemble avec des jaunes d'oeufs et de pigeonneaux et le tout bien assaisonne', vous remplirez vostre poulet-d'Inde, avec sel, poivre, clou battu, et capres, puis le mettez a la' broche, et le ferez tourner bien doucement, estant presque cuit tirez-le et le mettez dans une terrine avec de bon bouillon, champignons et un bouquet. Pour lier la sauce, prenez un peu de larde coupe', le faites passer par le poesle, lequel estant fondu vous tirirez, et y meslerez un peu de farine, que vous laisserez bien roussir et delayerez avec peu de bouillon et de vinaigre; la mettez ensuite dans vostre terrine avec jus de citron, et servez; si c'est en temps des framboises, vous y en mettrez une poigne'e par dessus. Francois La Varenne, Le cuisinier francois (1654) After it is dressed raise the breast [the skin?] and pull out the flesh, that you will chop with fat, and a little veal, that you will blend together with egg yolks and young pigeons and all well-seasoned, you stuff your India-hen, with salt, pepper, beaten cloves, and capers, then put it on the spit, and will make it turn very gently, when it is almost cooked draw it off and put it in a pot with good broth, mushrooms and a bouquet. To bind the sauce, take a little chopped bacon, pass it through the pan, which when melted remove it, and stir in a little flour, which you will let turn well russet, and dilute with some broth and vinegar; put then in your pot with some lemon juice, and serve; if raspberries are in season, put a handful of it them over it. Francois La Varenne, Le cuisinier francois (1654) Wheaton's adaptation (I don't use that r-word, generally) seems to describe a roasted, braised galantine of turkey, a galantine in the modern sense of a boneless meat roll with garnishes built inside it. Her ingredients list seems more or less accurate, she's just using them to produce a different dish. Since La Varenne doesn't actually seem to be boning the turkey (or at least the instructions don't seem to specify it) the possibility exists that the stuffing, including the ground-up breast meat, is reinserted into its former location under the breast skin, or perhaps into the body cavity. Maybe the entire breast with ribs and sternum are removed, boned, then later stuffed into the cavity and under the skin. Alternately, the entire breast might be removed, skin and all, and the forcemeat is just packed/mounded up between the legs and wings in a breast shape, which might explain why you have to turn it so gently on the spit. Adamantius Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:51:45 -0500 From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net> Subject: SC - LaVarenne and the Raspberry Turkey Sounds like a good title for a novel, doesn't it? At any rate, I found the Falconwood Press edition that I have. It was translated into English sometime around 1653 by "I.D.G", and printed for "Charls Adams, and are to be sold at his shop, at the Sign of the Talbot neere St. Dunstan's Church in Fleetstreet, 1653. There is a letter at the beginning of the book from a DuFresne to the Right Honourable John Ealy of Tannet, commending a French chef to the service of this lord. I cannot tell if this letter is about LaVarenne or some other cook, as there is another reference to LaVarenne as Clerk of the Kitchen to the Lord Marquesse of Uxelles. At any rate, having given you that information, which may or may not be useful, here is I.D.G's translation of the requested turkey recipe: 1. Turkie with Raspis When it is dressed, take up the brisket, and take out the flesh, which you shall mince with suet and some little of Veal-flesh, which you shall mix together with yolks of Eggs & young Pigeons, & all being well seasoned, you shall fill your Turkie with it, and shall season it with Salt, Peper, beaten Cloves and Capers, then you shall spit it, and turn it very softly; When it is almost rosted, take it up, and put it into an Earthen pan with good Broath, Mushrums, and a bundle of Herbs, which you shall make with Parsley, thime and Chibols tied together; for to thicken the sauce, take a little Lard sliced, pass it in the pan, and when it is melted, take it out, and mix a little flower with it, which you shall make very brown, and shall allay it with a little Broath and some Vinegar; then put it into your Earthen pan with some Lemon juice and serve. If it be in the Raspis season, you shall put a handful of them over it, if not, some Pomgranate. Hope this helps. For those of you who have asked for a copy of the book, Phillip is going to see what he can do. I'll keep you posted. Kiri Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:14:11 +0100 From: tgl at mailer.uni-marburg.de Subject: SC - Turkey The 1593 edition of Vincenzo Cervio's 'Il trinciante' (an Italian carving manual; reprinted 1980) deals among other things with _Gallo d'India_ (turkey). The book includes a picture and a chapter "come si trincia vn gallo d'India. Cap. XII." (How to carve a turkey). This chapter begins with the words: "IL gallo d'India vccello domestico, venuto pochi anni sono in Italia. ..." (The turkey is a domestic bird, which came/was imported to Italy a few years ago ...) The first edition of Cervio was published somewhat earlier, in 1581, but I did not see it. Anyway, the passage might serve as additional evidence how the consumption of turkey spread in the second half of 16th century Europe. Thomas (I put two pictures on my site: gallind2.jpg and gallind3.jpg) From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 02:28:45 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys and peacocks and knives, oh my! There's a very interesting illustration in one of the 16th century Italian carving manuals hosted on the Fons Grewe website: http://www.bib.ub.es/grewe/showbook.pl?gw009 Type 18 in the search window, and click "anar a" (go to). It's a comparative illustration of a gallo d'India (turkey) and pavone (peacock). If you then click "endavant" (forward), it will take you to a picture of kitchen implements, including a tongs-like device to hold an egg for carving. Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 14:59:15 -0400 From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] food myths (Turkey) Markham may be dated 1638 here not 1683. Since this is The English Housewife we are discussing, that book dates from its first appearance in 1615 as part of Countrey Contentments. William Harrison includes material on the turkey in his A Description of Elizabethan England. Written for Holinshed's Chronicles in the 1570's. Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway Daniel Myers wrote: > Thanks for that reference! I had the turkey in the period foods > database from the "The English Housewife" [G. Markham, 1683] but had > missed this one. From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: food myths (Turkey) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:43:01 -0500 Turkeys (Meleagris gallopavo, the particular variant being the Rio Grande turkey) came from Mexico to Spain in 1528 with the return of Hernando Cortez. Within 20 years (IIRC), they were being raised by at least one member of the House of Valois. The turkey, due to its superior taste, began replacing peacocks, bustards, swans, etc. At first it was rare but by the end of the century it appears to have become a commodity available through the poultry sellers. A woodcut and recipe appear in Rumpolt, so the bird was known and eaten from England to Germany. Bear Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 17:42:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] food myths (Turkey) To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Marx Rumpolt not only has recipes for Turkey in his 1581 cookbook, but also a drawing of one. Huette From: "Johnna Holloway" <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: food myths (Turkey) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:41:51 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirsten Houseknecht" <kirsten at fabricdragon.com> > dont forget that there was also a European bird that was called "turky" > Kirsten ----------------------------------------------------- Here's part of the OED run down since you were inquiring. This I posted off to Daniel originally and not to the list. If you want the earliest references, you should see C. Anne Wilson as she says that they were mentioned in 1541. If you don't already have one get a copy of Wilson. She's still essential. These are earlier than Harrison--- OED cites these: 1541 Constitutio T. Cranmeri in Wilkins Concilia (1737) III. 862 It was also provided, that of the greater fyshes or fowles there should be but one in a dishe, as crane, swan, turkeycocke, hadocke, pyke, tench. 1555 Eden Decades 79 The inhabitantes of Paria..gaue them also a greate multitude of theyr peacockes [L. pavones]. [margin] Paria. Peacockes whiche wee caule Turkye cockes. Those birds may be guinea hens however as are the turkey hens spoken of here: 1552 Elyot, Meleagrides, byrdes, whiche we doo call hennes of Genny, or Turkie hennes. 1578 Lyte Dodoens ii. lii. 214 Called..Flos Meleagris..from a kinde of birde..whose feathers be speckled..not with Violet speckes, but with white and blacke spots, lyke to the feathers of the Turkie or Ginny hen, which is called Meleagris auis: some do also cal this flower Fritillaria. 1601 Holland Pliny I. 296 The Ginnie or Turkey hens in a part of Africke called Numidia, be in great request. 1555 Eden Decades 158 They [of Yucatan] brought..eyght of their hennes beynge as bygge as peacockes, of brownyshe coloure, and not inferiour to peacockes in pleasaunte tast. [margin] Turky hens. 1580 Hollyband Treas. Fr. Tong, Poule d'Inde, a Turkie henne. The following however is reckoned to be the New World turkey. 1555 in Dugdale Orig. Jurid. xlviii. (1666) 135 Turkies 2. rated at 4s. a piece..00. 08. 00. 1573 Tusser Husb. (1878) 89 Runciuall pease..more tender and greater they wex, If peacock and turkey leaue iobbing their bex. 1596 Shaks. 1 Hen. IV, ii. i. 29 The Turkies in my Pannier are quite starued. I will delete the references to Harrison except to note that Dover reprinted the 1586 edition. and the section on poultry begins in that edition on page 314. Turkey is mentioned on 317. Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:05:31 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: food myths (Turkey) Numida meleagris, the guinea fowl, which is of African origin and was originally imported into Europe by the Romans. AS I recall they appear in Roman literature as "Numidean hens." They seem to disappear from Europe during the Middle Ages and began being re-imported in the 15th Century. In Food, Waverley Root provides commentary about the naming confusion between guinea fowl and North American turkeys. Bear > dont forget that there was also a European bird that was > called "turky" > Kirsten From: "Barbara G. Dodge" <awench1 at cox.net> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:56:07 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Turkey (was Food Myths) A sculpture of a turkey was done by Giovanni Da Bologna in 1560. It definitely looks like the standard turkey we are used to seeing today, so there is no doubt that some people were familiar with our favorite "gobbler"! The site I was searching is The Web Gallery of Art at: http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/index1.html If you click on the letter G on the left of the page, you can scroll through all the names till you find Giovanni Da Bologna. The site is wonderful, you can search by the time frame and narrow down your search to the period you are interested in. There is also an artist (Giuseppe Arcimboldo1530-1593) who painted using fruits and vegetables to form the features of the face! In one of his paintings (Vertumnus), it looks like he has used corn on the cob. Could I be mistaking it for another vegetable? I do realize that just because these things appear in period works of art it doesn't mean they ate them. But it just might give one, well...food for thought! From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: food myths (Turkey) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:40:44 -0500 The guinea fowl is native to Africa and is named after the Guinea Coast in West Africa, suggesting that it was brought into Europe from there, which would probably mean 15th Century Portuguese. In the US, they are commonly called Hungarian guinea fowl, because they were originally imported into North America from Hungary (I haven't found the proof for this one, so I consider it likely, but apocryphal). The bird ranges between the size of a large chicken and a small turkey. Probably 7 to 12 pounds dressed. Known to the Romans as the Numidian hen, the guinea fowl appears to have disappeared from Europe following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. It may have been raised and eaten in the Islamic world, but its apparent unavailability in Europe suggests otherwise. If it was returned to Europe during the early Portuguese explorations, then, like maize and capsicum peppers, it was probably traded into the Levant via Genoa and Venice and brought into Central Europe by the Ottoman Turks. BTW, Numidia coincides roughly with modern Algeria, so the bird was West African even in Roman times. It is possible that climate change and local hunting reduced its range during the late Roman period, so that it was no longer readily available to the Mediterranean basin. A few facts and a lot of speculation. Bear From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: food myths (Turkey) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 16:35:30 -0500 And all of the references are English, so here are a few non-English ones. The earliest citation for "turkey" I have seen is for the accounts of one Arnot Arnaud for roast turkey at a banquet for Phillpe of Burgundy, 12 November 1385. Since I haven't seen anything purporting to be actual accounts, I can not say whther this reference really exists or what the period wording was. If this is an actual reference, it may be to a guinea fowl or to some other bird imported from the East. According to Toussaint-Samat, New World turkey was first "officially" served in France at the wedding of Charles IX in 1570. However his mother, Catherine de' Medici served 70 Indian hens and 7 Indian roosters at a feast at the bishopric of Paris in 1549. Rabelais mentions guinea fowl (guynette) in Pantagruel (1532) and turkeys (coq d'Indie) in Garganyua (1534). Marguerite d'Angouleme (Maguerite of Navarre) contracted with a farmer in Navarre to raise turkeys for her table. This had to be after 1527, when she married Henry of Navarre, and before her death in 1549. Her brother was Francis I of France (1494-1547). Francis was Rabelais' patron, so one might suspect a connection, hmmm. In L'agriculture et la maison rustique (1564), Charles Estienne comments on the (New World) turkey's voracious appetite and the fact that it arrived at the same time as its food (maize). Bear From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: Turkey (Was Food Myths) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 13:19:34 -0500 The period French for the bustard is "bistarde" or "outarde." For the turkey, it is "coq d'Inde," sometimes abbreviated to "dinde." So, without the original text or an accurate transcription, it is difficult to determine what is being referred to as a turkey except that it can't be the New World turkey and probably isn't the European Great Bustard. BTW, bustard refers to a number of species which fill the ecological niche in Europe, Asia and Africa, that the turkey fills in North and Central America. The European Great Bustard (Otis tarda) isn't extinct, but is no longer found normally in Northern Europe. Bear >Bear cites: >>The earliest citation for "turkey" I have seen is for the accounts of one >>Arnot Arnaud for roast turkey at a banquet for Phillpe of Burgundy, 12 >>November 1385. Since I haven't seen anything purporting to be actual >>accounts, I can not say whther this reference really exists or what the >>period wording was. If this is an actual reference, it may be to a guinea >>fowl or to some other bird imported from the East. > >This obviously cannot be the New World bird, but could it have been the >similar native European fowl (now extinct), the bustard? From my reading, >the main reason for the rapid acceptance of turkey was its resemblance to the >bustard in size and (apparently) taste. Do we have any data as to when the >bustards were eaten out of existance? Did the dates overlap the introduction >of the turkey? > >Akim >--- Diamond Randall Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:46:27 -0400 From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: Turkey (Was Food Myths) While unable to do e-mail over the weekend, I checked Peter Brears and in All the King's Cooks, he states: "Turkeys were also available at this period; they were brought into Europe from Mexico and Central America about 1523-4, and into England at about the same time by the Strickland family of Boynton near Bridlington in East Riding. see page 38. This would make turkeys appropriate for Tudor Cookery beginning in the 1530's or perhaps as much as 70 years earlier than the usual very late 1590's dates that are usually cited. If one wants to roast a turkey for a Tudor feast, then Brears is the source to check out. Certainly we are not going to serving swan, crane, heron, bustarde, etc. It also occurred to me that I ought to mention that PPC ran an excellent series on the great birds that were served in the Middle Ages. The author was Joop Witteveen and in 4 issues of PPC the author covered swans, cranes, herons and peacocks. Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:37:04 +0000 From: "Olwen the Odd" <olwentheodd at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Peacock Re: [Sca-cooks] larding turkeys and other meats To sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Turkeys are mentioned as part of the 'shopping lists' in Beards book All the Kings Cooks. I don't have the book here at work but I know they are referenced in there. Olwen O Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:31:57 -0500 (EST) From: sabine eiche <sabinedellarovere at yahoo.ca> Subject: [Sca-cooks] book on history of turkeys To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org I have dipped into your messages on occasion, mostly by way of Florilegium.org. Since turkeys, especially the history of the turkey, has been a topic of interest to this list, I thought everyone would be pleased to know that my book on the reception and impact of the New World turkey in the Old World was published at the beginning of October in Florence by the art publisher Centro Di. Presenting the Turkey: The Fabulous Story of a Flamboyant and Flavourful Bird will be distributed in the US next year, but in the meantime for anyone who doesn't want to wait, it can be ordered through Michael Shamansky's book import service: www.artbooks.com, search with in my name, Sabine Eiche, or the title. Sabine Eiche Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:39:25 -0600 From: Barbara Benson <voxeight at gmail.com> Subject: Re: New World Foods- was Re: [Sca-cooks] Earthapples eyc To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> > For evidence you can look to Rumpoldt's chapter on Turkey, in it he > tells you to make Blancmange out of the Turkey Breast, > > William de Grandfort> Not roasted?? Curious. In the Chapter for Indianishen Hen there are 20 recipes and suggestions for how to use the Turkey. The blancmange was simply one of the ways that illustrated my point. He also includes roasted as a good cooking method. And he states that it is a good food cold, smart man. --Serena da Riva Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 21:40:49 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval turkey? To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> I just did a short article for the Pale (MK newsletter) on great birds and turkeys. It appeared in the November Pale and pointed out sources for turkeys in the 16th century. I recommend Sabine Eiche's wonderful new book Presenting the Turkey. http://www.antique-acc.com/ACCUS/acatalog/ACCUS_Centro_Di_214.html [NOTE: Johnnae's article is available in the Florilegium as: Turkeys-a-GB-art (6K) 12/14/05 "On Turkeys and Great Birds" by Johnnae llyn Lewis. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-MEATS/Turkeys-a-GB-art.html -Stefan ] Johnnae Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:12:36 -0800 From: "Steve Berry" <srberry at teleport.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ok Now I KNOW THIS but for the life can't remember... To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> <<< Ok color me an idiot, but Turkey Is NOT Period. Right? Turkey's are new world right? Nichola >>> Turkeys are found in several embroidery picture books/bestiaries from the late 16th, early 17th century. Were they just pets or were they eaten? Either way, they were known because people like Peter Stent and Konrad Gesler were drawing them..... Dame Arwen Lioncourt Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:46:03 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ok Now I KNOW THIS but for the life can'tremember... To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> They were eaten. There are references to them being raised to be eaten, Rumpolt has recipes, and Vincenzo Campi's "Poultry Seller" (very late 16th Century) has a dead turkey being plucked by the poultry seller. Bear > Turkeys are found in several embroidery picture books/bestiaries from the > late 16th, early 17th century. Were they just pets or were they eaten? > Either way, they were known because people like Peter Stent and Konrad > Gesler were drawing them..... > > Dame Arwen Lioncourt Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:51:27 -0800 (PST) From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ok Now I KNOW THIS but for the life can't remember... To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> Turkeys are New World, but since they were similar to other large birds like the guinea hen, they were assimilated into European menus much faster than other things, like plants. Here is a drawing of a turkey from 1581: http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_ASsp99_turkeypix.htm and here is the corresponding recipe, translated by Gwen Cat: http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_fowl1.htm Turkeys are mentioned in England in 1541, in sumptuary laws. In France, Queen Marguerite of Navarre is recorded to have raised them in Alencon in 1534. In 1549, 66 turkeys were served at a feast for Catherine de Medici. Turkeys were also served in Liege, Belgium in 1557, using three different methods of preparation. So, turkeys can be considered period. Huette Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:14:54 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkey was Ok Now I KNOW THIS but for the life can't remember... To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> I wrote an article titled On Turkeys and Great Birds last year that Stefan placed in the Florilegium as a file-- Turkeys-a-GB-art - 12/14/05 This year I would add that Andy Smith's new book titled THE TURKEY is out and is a marvelous companion work to go along with Presenting the Turkey. Smith goes into Markham and his use of the turkey. Johnnae Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:41:54 -0800 (PST) From: Marcus Loidolt <mjloidolt at yahoo.com> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys ARE Period! To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org I'm sorry, but the poultrier has to weigh in here...The Spanish introduced the Mayan Turkey (different species than NA wild turkey) into Europe by 1500. The birds were being raised and sold in markets in ENGLAND by 1540 because Henry VIII put a price limit on how much one could charge. By the time the Pilgrims left for NA they had already seen turkeys in the markets to England and the Netherlands. The Dutch were already breeding WHITE turkeys by 1670... The Spanish Blacks were introduced to England and there developed into the Norfolk Blacks, these are now two of the oldest and rarest breeds of turkeys left...the ancestral Mayan bird is in decline as well. Now, I have to say the word 'turkey' can be mis-leading and we need to know that Guineas have been called 'turkeys' for a long time before the NA bird..which is why the NA bird was first called the INDIAN turkey...until of course we realized that we weren't in India... sorry, ramblings of a poultry laurel.... Johann von Metten aren't ya glad ya didn't get me going on chickens and eggs!! lol!! Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:15:01 -0500 From: "Saint Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Tasting heritage turkeys To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> http://www.post-gazette.com/food/20021121turkey1121fnp2.asp -- Saint Phlip Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:42:26 -0500 From: "grizly" <grizly at mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys ARE Period! (getting detailed now) To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> -----Original Message----- < < < < < I'm sorry, but the poultrier has to weigh in here...The Spanish introduced the Mayan Turkey(different species than NA wild turkey) into Europe by 1500. The birds were being raised and sold in markets in ENGLAND by 1540 because HenryVIII put a price limit on how much one could charge. By the time the Pilgrims left for NA they had already seen turkeys in the markets to England and the Netherlands. The Dutch were already breeding WHITE turkeys by 1670... Now, I have to say the word 'turkey' can be mis-leading and we need to know that Guineas have been called 'turkeys' for a long time before the NA bird..which is why the NA bird was first called the INDIAN turkey...until of course we realized that we weren't in India... sorry, ramblings of a poultry laurel.... Johann von Metten aren't ya glad ya didn't get me going on chickens and eggs!! lol!! > > > > > > The trouble is that the word "turkey" has meant at least two different birds since the 1500's. Not knowing specifically which one is identified in a given reference means we run the risk of misunderstanding the reference and time tag. My cursory reading about the subject leads me to the similarities and differences between the "Mayan" and "North American" breeds. Both are from the subfamily Meleagridinae and Genus Meleagris; Mayan (Ocellated) is species Meleagris ocellta and NA is species Meleagris gallopavo. Confusing the mess is that Helmeted Guineafowl are Numida meleagris. Though what I've read suggest that differences are small, the earliest dates I can find for domestication of the Mayan (Ocellated) are in the 1800's; and everything says that the Eastern Wild Turkey forbears is more likely what was transported to the Old World. I'd like the reference information about introduction of the Mayan turkeys by 1500; that would add a lot to my understanding and clarify some of my confusions. They Mayans are not sexual dimorphs . . . they aren't distinctly different in appearance by gender . . . as are most every other breed I can find through Europe. Europeans developed the Black and the Royal Palm breeds at some point after introduction of the North American Wild Turkey. Americans seem to have been domesticating the birds since colonial times, and breeding them in various strains at least since the 1800' . . . they got serious about turkey production and modification in the 1940's. See? There is a lot to know about "period" when talking about turkeys, and we are stuck working backwards for much of it. Even when we are talking certainly about North American Galliformes in history, there's a lot to figure out. niccolo difrancesco Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 00:14:03 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys ARE Period! To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> Actually, there is high probability that the Spanish introduced two different species at about the same time; Agriocharis ocellata (AKA Meleagris ocellata) the Central American or "Mayan" turkey and Meleagris gallopavo riograndensis, both of which range into Mexico. The latter bird is quite a bit larger than the Eastern woodland turkey, is often tan in color and does a lot of upright walking because it is a plains bird. In my opinion, the white domesticated turkey is most likely a descendent of the Rio Grande turkey. Oklahoma is at the western edge of the woodland turkey's range and the northeastern edge of the Rio Grande turkey's range and I've had the pleasure of observing both in the field. Bear > I'm sorry, but the poultrier has to weigh in here...The Spanish introduced > the Mayan Turkey(different species than NA wild turkey) into Europe by > 1500. The birds were being raised and sold in markets in ENGLAND by 1540 > because HenryVIII put a price limit on how much one could charge. By the > time the Pilgrims left for NA they had already seen turkeys in the markets > to England and the Netherlands. The Dutch were already breeding WHITE > turkeys by 1670... > The Spanish Blacks were introduced to England and there developed into > the Norfolk Blacks, these are now two of the oldest and rarest breeds of > turkeys left...the ancestral Mayan bird is in decline as well. > Johann von Metten Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 06:45:47 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys ARE Period! To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> > The quote means that "Turkeys are Period" in certain places in Europe and > England by 1500=1540... That doesn't mean that it was period for prior to > that time (not Italian quadrocento, not "Viking", not the Court of Richard > II of England, not Anglo-Saxon. 1527 rather than 1500 with the first goodies from the newly conquered lands in Mexico. > Johann, isn't there also some reason to think that the Turkey came in > through the trade routes from the middle East and thought of as native to > India or Turkey? > > Regina I'm not Johann, but I can answer that with an almost definitive "No." While several things are thought to have come into Europe from North America via Asia, the connection is the Spanish trade between the Philippines and the West Coast of Mexico and South America, the Manila galleons. The Spanish did not enter the Philippines until 1543 and the trade with Mexico didn't start until 1564. The entrance of the North American turkey into Europe pre-dates both of these events. Chili peppers, although Fuchs identifies them as being from India, appear in his herbal of 1541, so they obviously came in the front door. White potatoes, however, appear at such a late date, that there is speculation they came into Europe from Chile via the Manila trade. Bear Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:20:26 -0800 From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys ARE Period! To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> ... >> Johann, isn't there also some reason to think that the Turkey came in >> through the trade routes from the middle East and thought of as >> native to India or Turkey? ... > I'm not Johann, but I can answer that with an almost definitive "No." While > several things are thought to have come into Europe from North America via > Asia, the connection is the Spanish trade between the Philippines and the > West Coast of Mexico and South America, the Manila galleons. The Spanish > did not enter the Philippines until 1543 and the trade with Mexico didn't > start until 1564. The entrance of the North American turkey into Europe > pre-dates both of these events. One account I have heard is that turkeys were brought from Spain to England by merchants who traded from the eastern Mediterranean to England via Spain. They were referred to as "turkey merchants," hence the name for the bird. I have no idea if the account is correct. -- David/Cariadoc <the end> Edited by Mark S. Harris turkeys-msg Page 31 of 31