spit-roasting-msg - 12/7/09 Period spit roasting of meats. NOTE: See also the files: spits-msg, skewred-meats-msg, p-marinating-msg, roast-chicken-msg, whole-pig-msg, roast-meats-msg, roast-pork-msg, carbonadoes-msg, meat-carving-bib. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:23:25 -0600 From: Michael Gunter Subject: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat To: Cooks within the SCA I'm doing some research on just what the drippings of spit roasted meats would be. It is surprising that I'm running into such difficulty but I've gone through several manuals (Digby, Two 15th Century Cookbooks, Sebrina Welserin) and haven't found anything on spit roasting beef. There are detailed instructions on how to roast birds and such but very little on roasts and even whole pigs or lamb. I've determined that the term "sewe" in Two 15th Century cookbooks means "drippings" as opposed to beef broth or stock. I'm still looking for some kind of concrete example of what we all seem to "know" about roasted meats. The best I've found was in broiling steaks that are basted with verjous, wine or vinegar and whatever herbs you want but not much better. Any sources out there for basting juices for whole roasts or what would compromise "sewe" of beef? I'm still looking and the results are surprising. Gunthar Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:07:41 -0500 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat To: Cooks within the SCA On Jan 31, 2008, at 2:23 PM, Michael Gunter wrote: > I'm doing some research on just what the drippings of > spit roasted meats would be. It is surprising that I'm > running into such difficulty but I've gone through several > manuals (Digby, Two 15th Century Cookbooks, Sebrina > Welserin) and haven't found anything on spit roasting > beef. There are detailed instructions on how to roast > birds and such but very little on roasts and even whole > pigs or lamb. I'm pretty sure Markham has fairly detailed instructions on spit- roasting. I don't have it in front of me, but I STR he speaks of roasting the meat until the fat is running on the outside, and then putting fine white breadcrumbs on the fat (not unlike those crusted rack of lamb recipes that used to be all the rage in the 90's) to form a crust around the meat to keep it moist. He also speaks of using different-sized cuts of meat either together or as a shield, one against the other, to control heat flow. Okay, went and got it: Book Two, "On Cookery", 59. Of roast meats. Observations in roast meats. 60. Spitting of roast meats. 61. Temperature of fire. 62. The complexion of roast meats. 63. The best bastings for meats. 64. The best dredgings. 65. To know when meat is enough. As Uncle Don used to say on the radio, "That oughtta hold the little b******s!" > I've determined that the term "sewe" in Two 15th Century > cookbooks means "drippings" as opposed to beef broth > or stock. I'm still looking for some kind of concrete example > of what we all seem to "know" about roasted meats. > > The best I've found was in broiling steaks that are basted > with verjous, wine or vinegar and whatever herbs you want > but not much better. > > Any sources out there for basting juices for whole roasts > or what would compromise "sewe" of beef? There's sewe and there's seme, which sometimes seem to be either interchangeable or different animals. I suspect there's a transition from stock/broth, to the fat that floats on top of that, to fat in general. Adamantius Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:28:54 -0500 From: "Elise Fleming" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" Gunther asked about roasting beef... You might want to look at the recipe on Ivan Day's web site: http://www.historicfood.com/Roast%20Fillet%20of%20Beef% 20Recipe.htm . He has a picture of the beef on a spit. He quotes La Varenne's method which would seem to preclude much in the way of drippings since the beef is wrapped in paper but he also gives May's method for basting it. Alys Katharine Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:33:39 -0500 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat To: Cooks within the SCA On Jan 31, 2008, at 3:14 PM, Dragon wrote: > Michael Gunter wrote: >> I'm doing some research on just what the drippings of >> spit roasted meats would be. It is surprising that I'm >> running into such difficulty but I've gone through several >> manuals (Digby, Two 15th Century Cookbooks, Sebrina >> Welserin) and haven't found anything on spit roasting >> beef. There are detailed instructions on how to roast >> birds and such but very little on roasts and even whole >> pigs or lamb. >> >> I've determined that the term "sewe" in Two 15th Century >> cookbooks means "drippings" as opposed to beef broth >> or stock. I'm still looking for some kind of concrete example >> of what we all seem to "know" about roasted meats. >> >> The best I've found was in broiling steaks that are basted >> with verjous, wine or vinegar and whatever herbs you want >> but not much better. >> >> Any sources out there for basting juices for whole roasts >> or what would compromise "sewe" of beef? >> >> I'm still looking and the results are surprising. >> > ---------------- End original message. --------------------- > > I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here in that I am not fully > familiar with the humoral theory of health that influenced the > cooking of the Middle Ages but I am going to suggest that the reason > you are having difficulty finding anything on roast beef is because > they would not have considered that a proper way to cook it. > > As I understand it, the theory says that beef is of a hot and dry > humor and thus it would have been cooked by boiling more often than > not to temper its hot and dry nature under the theory. > > Again, my understanding is not complete as I really need to do more > reading on it, but I have come across some notes to that effect in an > annotated translation of Taillevant if I am not mistaken. You may be speaking of Scully's edition of Taillevent. I think he says, more or less, that the dryer, hotter meats (humorally speaking -- these can be identified in sources like Tacuinum Sanitatis, for one), are generally parboiled to offset the heat and dryness, then larded before roasting. The finished meat will still be hot and dry in temperament, as it were, but less harmfully so. Mutton and venison are common examples of meat that might be treated in this way, and while beef, which presumably could be treated this way, was probably more often boiled than roasted. You may notice there might b said to be more recipes calling for beef broth than there are for dishes specifically calling for beef, so perhaps either this beef is being referred to by another name or is being eaten in some very simple form, like being boiled, cut up, then served with something like pepper sauce. Add to that the fact that we're probably not talking about young, grain-fed beef steer, so slow simmering might make a lot of sense. That's another rather large hole in what we think we know about the roast beef genre in period. Seems like even young, tender beef was often coming from young oxen or bullocks, but not really what we'd think of now as a steer. Isn't an ox a castrated adult male, a bullock any castrated male bovine, and a steer castrated before reaching sexual maturity? Adamantius Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:41:56 -0600 From: Michael Gunter Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat To: Checking my notes, I already had Markham's instructions and was looking for more. So far, his is the only book I've been able to find any instructions for basting beef on a spit. And I checked the historic food website and it does indeed state to baste with butter. The recipe used is rather late but no worse than Digby. Still, no mention of wine in any recipe so far. This kind of surprises me as I figured many meats were basted in wine of some form and probably dredged in herbs. Right now all I've found is to bake beef well salted. (Roman times) Baste in verjuis, vinegar, water or butter. The most common method seems to be parboiling the meat then slicing into steaks. I'm still looking. Gunthar Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:27:34 -0500 From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat To: Cooks within the SCA Most of the beef recipes in Rumpolt call for boiling, but there are a few for roasting on a spit. And several others for roasting that don't mention a spit. Sorry, I haven't translated these yet. Could roasting be too simple for older cookbooks to bother with? Everyone KNOWS how to roast. Ranvaig Ochsen 48. Nimm das Hinterviertel vom Ochsen/ wasch es au?/ und Salz es ein/ stecks darnach an ein Spie?/ und la? langsam braten/ in die vier und zwentzig stunden. Und du mu?t achtung drauf geben/ da? du es zum Fr?hmahl anrichtest/ als dann schneidt zimlich viel Zwibeln klein/ und schwei? sie wohl in Butter/ thu auch ein wenig Salz darein/ und wenn du den Braten anrichtest/ so thu die Zwibeln oben drauf. Also tregt man es f?r einen K?nig in Polen. Ochsen 57. Eingemacht Ottwarsck/ auf B?hmisch/ mit Kromet oder Wacholderbeer. Stecks an ein Spie?/ und la? braten/ zeuchs ab/ und wasch in kaltem Wasser au?/ schneidt es zu st?cken/ und thu es in ein Hafen oder Kessel/ seig die Br?he durch ein sauber Tuch oder Sieb/ thu klein geschnittene Zwibel darauf/ und la? darmit sieden/ und misch gerieben R?ckenbrot darunter. Und wenn die Zwibeln gesotten sein/ so versuchs/ ob es lieblich schmeckt. So bald du es versucht hast/ so nimm ein wenig Pfeffer/ und mach es damit an/ thu ein wenig Essig/ Safran und Wacholderbeer daran/ und la? darmit sieden/ und schaw/ da? das Fleisch nicht versotten wirt/ so gewinnet es ein liebliche Br?he. Wiltu es aber auf ein ander manier machen/ so geu? unter die Br?he/ wenn sie aufgesotten ist/ ein frischen schwei? und Essig/ la? wider damit auf sieden/ streichs durch/ und geu? dar?ber/ so ist es auch ein gut Essen. Ochsen 68. Widerumb Rindtfleisch gekocht auf ein ander manier in Pfeffer. Nimm Rindtfleisch/ und stecks an ein Spie?/ und brat es gar an die statt/ schneidt es zu st?cken/ und thu es in ein eingemachten Pfeffer/ der wohl zugerichtet ist/ und fein s?urlich/ wie zuvor vermeldt ist/ wie man die Pfeffer machen soll/ La? damit sieden/ so wirt es wohl geschmack und gut/ Dann alles wz man von Rindtfleisch zurichtet/ ist gut zu essen/ wenn es s?urlich ist/ es sei ein Pfeffer/ gelb oder Eschenfarb. Ranvaig Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:13:31 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat To: Cooks within the SCA Michael Gunter wrote: > I'm doing some research on just what the drippings of > spit roasted meats would be. snipped > > Any sources out there for basting juices for whole roasts > or what would compromise "sewe" of beef? > > I'm still looking and the results are surprising. > > Gunthar Ok -- A Sur-Loyn of Roast Beef Holme in the Academy of Armory gives this as first course dish-- A Surloyn of Beef , a Chine or Ribb of Beef . followed by 10. Loyn of Veal,Roast Venison. Searching EEBO-TCP and trying various search combinations, it's easy to turn up To Roast a Haunch of Venison. If your Venison be seasoned, you must water it, and stick it with short sprigs of Rosemary, let your sawce be Claret Wine, a handful of grated Bread, Cinnamon, Ginger, Sugar, a little Vinegar, boyl these up so thick as it may only run like Butter, it ought to be sharp and sweet, dish up your meat on your sawce. The compleat servant-maid; by Woolley, Hannah, fl. 1670. This edition 1677. Now to get into beef-- one has to account for variations in spelling not only as to beef but also as to roast... The best and longest is Gervase Markham as been mentioned. So Here's what Markham has to say in the 1623 version of Countrey contentments, or The English husvvife Page 79-80 To proceed then to roast meats, it is to bee vnderstood, that in the generall knowledge thereof are to be obserued these few rules. First, the cleanely keeping and scowring of of the spits and cobirons; next, the neat picking and washing of meate before it bee spitted, then the spitting and broaching of meate which must bee done so strongly and firmely, that the meat may by no meanes either shrink from the spit, or else turne about the spit: and yet euer to obserue, that the spit doe not goe through any principall part of the meate, but such as is of least account and esti|mation: and if it be birds or fowle which you spit, then to let the spit goe through the hollow of the body of the Fowle, and to fasten it with pricks or skewers vnder the wings about the thighes of the Fowle, and at the feete or rump,* according to your manner of trussing and dressing them. Then to know the temperatures of fiers for euery meate, and which must haue a slow fire, yet a good one, taking leasure in roasting, as Chines of Beefe, Swannes, Turkies, Peacockes, Bustards, and generally any great large Fowle, or any other ioints of Mutton, Veale, Porke, Kid, Lambe, or such like: whether it be Venison red, or Fallow, which indeed would lie long at the fire, and soke well in the roasting, and which would haue a quicke and sharpe fire without schorching; as Pigges, Pullets, Feasants, Partridge, Quaile, and all sorts of middle sized or lesser fowle, and all small birds, or compound roste-meates, as Oliues of Veale, Haslets; a pound of butter roasted; or puddings simple of themselues; and many other such like, which in|deed would be suddenly & quickly dispatcht, because it is intended in Cookery, that on of these dishes must be made ready whilst the other is in eating. Then to know the com|plexions of meates, as which must be pale and white rosted, (yet thorowly rosted) as Mutton Veale, Lambe, Kid, Capon, Pullet, Pheasant, Partridge, Quaile, and all sorts of middle and small land, or water-fowle, and all small birds, and which must be browne rosted, as Beefe, venison, Porke Swannne, Geese, Pigges, Crane, Bustards, and any large fowle, or other thing whose flesh is blacke. Then to know the best bastings for meat which is sweet butter, sweet oyle, barreld butter, or fine rendred vp seame with sinamon, cloues, and mace. There be some that will bast onely with water, and salt, and nothing else; yet it is but opinion, and that must be the worlds Master alwaies. Then the best dredging, which is either fine white-bread crummes well grated, or els a little very fine white meale, and the crummes very well mixt together. Lastly to know when meate is rosted enough; for as too much rarenes is vnholsome, so too much drinesse is not nourishing. Therefore to know when it is in the perfit height, and is neither too moist nor too dry, you shall ob|serue these signes first in your large ioints of meate, when the stemme or stroke of the meate offendeth, either vp|right or els goeth from the fire, when it beginneth a little to shrinke from the spit, or when the grauy which drop|peth from it is cleare without bloodinesse. Page 84 If you will roast a Chine of Beefe, a loyne of Mutton, a Capon, and a Larke, all at one instant and at one fire, and haue all ready together and none burnt: you shall first take your Chine of Beefe and perboile if more then halfe through: Then first take your Capon being large and fat, and spit it next the hand of the turner, with the legges, from the fire, then spit the Chine of Beefe, then the Larke, and lastly the loine of Mutton, and place the Larke so as it may be couered ouer with the Beefe, and the fat part of the loine of Mutton, without any part disclosed: Then bast your Capon, and your loine of Mutton, with cold water, and Salt, the Chine of Beefe with boyling larde: Then when you see the beefe is almost enough, which you shall has|ten by schorching and opening of it: then with a cleane cloth you shall wipe the Mutton and Capon all ouer, and then bast it with sweet butter till all bee enough roasted; Then with your knife lay the Larke open which by this time will be stewed betweene the Beefe and Mutton, and basting it also dredge all together; draw them and serue them vp. ---------- Will this do for tonight? I promise to return with more. My bedtime reading tonight was already a volume titled Beef and Liberty Roast Beef, John Bull and the English Nation. I suspect also that reading Peter Brears' All the King's Cooks might provide you with a number of interesting points also. Johnnae Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 11:24:43 -0600 From: "Pat Griffin" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" One source that has been cited here in Meridies for spit roasting beef is a scene from the Bayeux Tapestry that supposedly show whole animals being roasted on spits. While I have not had the opportunity to study the entire 231 feet of the thing, or even to see it in real life, I have not been able to find such a scene online. I have, though, found a scene showing a spit mounted over a large cauldron. Could steaming be a possibility? Lady Anne du Bosc Known as Mordonna The Cook Mka Pat Griffin Thorngill, Meridies mka Montgomery, AL Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 15:34:51 -0500 From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat To: "Cooks within the SCA" I've seen the Bayeux "tapestry" in person twice, but it's a little too overwhelming to remember the details :-) I do have the 1/2 size-or-so repro book, so I took a look... There is an illustration of a big cauldron hung over a fire. It seems like it's actually hanging from the spit-thing, though, not laid under it. Just a little bit further, there are two skewers with small animals (they might be fowl or maybe rabbits), being passed from hand to hand (but not shown over a fire). I think they're part of the same scene. The only whole animals I could see were being carried on peoples' shoulders (looked like pigs). If there are animals roasting on a spit, I can't find them - and yes, I looked in the borders too. Edited by Mark S. 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