salmon-msg - 11/28/07 Use of Salmon in period. Recipes. NOTE: See also the files: fish-msg, seafood-msg, stockfish-msg, Complet-Anglr-msg, fish-pies-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 18:33:37 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Salmon at feasts marilyn traber wrote, re salmon: > fresh, prepared en papillot on a bed of leeks, carrots and celery sauted > in butter with thyme and rosemary, topped with lemon slices and dabs of > butter-a la bretonne, in other words....sigh! Some more period approaches to salmon would to roast it whole, and eat it with cameline sauce, green sauce, or perhaps a mustard sauce, and I found a spiffy version of salmon quenelles or dumplings, called "Saumon Gentil" somewhere in Curye on Inglysche. This dish involved mincing skinless and boneless fillets (note: do NOT remove the belly fat!) and extruding them through a hollow horn with the tip cut off, into boiling liquid. When the blobs are cooked, they can be cut into serving portions, and sprinkled with ground cumin. We made these at an event recently, and added some eggs to the mix, for a little insurance against breakage, and made individual dumplings with a pastry bag. We poached them in salmon stock, made from the remains of the salmon (being SURE to remove the gills, and any fat on the carcasses), and served them floating on top of a green sauce of salmon stock, malt vinegar, parsley, sorrel, and a few fresh bread crumbs. While not exactly a direct comment on the fish, somebody saw fit to rise and regale the folks in the hall with an impromptu recitation of the tale of Finn Mac Coul and the Salmon of Knowledge. I thought that was pretty cool... . Adamantius Date: 8 Oct 1997 15:58:33 -0700 From: "Marisa Herzog" <marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu> Subject: Re: SC - Salmon at feasts two of the best ways I have had salmon (other than just poached with appropriate sauce) were: marinated in sliced onions, dried cranberries, wine, soysauce, and a bit of sugar and then grilled. and a russian salmon loaf- a pie-dough sorta thing stuffed with flaked salmon, rice, hardboiled egg- can't remember the spices exactly but dill comes to mind- served hot with a dollup of sour cream. - -brid Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 20:57:59 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Salmon at feasts Marisa Herzog wrote: > a russian salmon loaf- a pie-dough sorta thing stuffed with flaked salmon, > rice, hardboiled egg- can't remember the spices exactly but dill comes to > mind- served hot with a dollup of sour cream. > > -brid That would be coulibiac, which was originally made from sturgeon. Traditional coulibiac, even now, is supposed to contain vesiga, which is a gelatinous stuff taken from the spine of the sturgeon, in addition to the other fish flesh. Adamantius Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 02:08:39 EST From: korrin.daardain at juno.com (Korrin S DaArdain) Subject: SC - Recipes x3 M'Lords and M'Ladys, I thought people might enjoy these. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Salmon with Spices and Prunes, Whole Baked From "The Tudor Kitchen's Cookery Book" Hampton Court Palace; Printed in The Oregonian Newspaper Food Day Mar 10, 1998. Salmon was popular in Tudor England. However, if you want to be more authentic, order a carp from your fishmonger. 1 whole fresh salmon or carp, 2 to 3 lbs, gutted and cleaned (2 lbs without head) 6 tb butter softened 2 ts ground mace 12 whole cloves Salt to taste Pepper to taste Garnish: Whole cooked prunes A few currants fresh lemon wedges Salad leaves Green onions Radishes Fresh dill Lay the fish on a large, greased sheet of foil set on a baking sheet. Mix the butter with the mace and salt and spread on the inside cavity and over the skin. Sprinke with cloves, then wrap the foil up loosely but sealing well. Bake at 350 deg for about 30 to 45 minutes depending on the size, until the fish is tender but still feels quite firm when pressed near the backbone. If the flesh is pale pink, then it is cooked. Allow to stand for 5 minutes before dishing into larger platter with the fish juices poured over, garnish with some whole cooked prunes, a few currants scattered over, lemon wedges, salad leaves, green onions and dill. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Korrin S. DaArdain Dodging trees in the Kingdom of An Tir. Korrin.DaArdain at Juno.com Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:44:35 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - First Feast Update > others are bringing: salmon steak (not period, but it's a start) Of course it is! Here is a recipe from Harleian 4016, c. 1450 (From "Take 1000 Eggs or More, v.2, p. 350). I haven't tried it, but it sounds delicious! Harleian MS. 4016 154 Samon roste in Sauce. Take a Salmond, and cut him rounde, chyne and all, and roste the peces on a gredire; And take wyne, and pouder of Canell, and drawe it [th]orgh a streynour; And take smale myced oynons, and caste [th]ere-to, and lete hem boyle; And [th]en take vynegre, or vergeous, and pouder ginger, and cast there-to; And [th]en ley the samon in a dissh, and cast [th]e sirip [th]eron al hote, & serue it forth. 154 Salmon roasted in Sauce. Take a Salmon, and cut him round, backbone and all, and roast the pieces on a gridiron; And take wine, and powder of Cinnamon, and draw it through a strainer; And take small minced onions, and cast thereto, and let them boil; And then take vinegar, or verjuice, and powdered ginger, and cast thereto; And then lay the salmon in a dish, and cast the syrup thereon all hot, & serve it forth. Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu renfrow at skylands.net Author & Publisher of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More, A Collection of 15th Century Recipes" and "A Sip Through Time, A Collection of Old Brewing Recipes" Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:07:55 -0800From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>Subject: Re: SC - First Feast UpdateAt 1:19 PM -0700 7/13/98, Vickie Strassburg wrote:> others are bringing: salmon steak (not period, but it's a start)Actually, it is period. You could either make the sauce for this over thefire on site, as it is fairly easy, or make in advance and keep cold.Salmon roste in SauceTwo Fifteenth Century p. 102Take a Salmond, and cut him rounde, chyne and all, and rost the peces on agredire; And take wyne, and pouder of Canell, and drawe it thorgh astreynour; And take smale myced oynons, and caste there-to, and lete hemboyle; And then take vynegre, or vergeous, and pouder ginger, and castthere-to; and then ley the samon in a dissh, and cast the sirip theron alhote, & serue it forth. [end of original; thorns replaced by th]1 3/4 lb salmon 3/4 t cinnamon 1/4 c red wine vinegar3/4 c white wine 1 medium onion, 6 oz 1/4 t gingerChop onion; put onion, wine, and cinnamon in small pot, cook on mediumabout 20 minutes. Add ginger and vinegar. Simmer. Meanwhile, take salmonsteaks, cut into serving sized pieces, place on ungreased baking pan orcookie sheet. Broil for 10 minutes until lightly browned. Turn salmon,making certain pieces are separated, cook another 4 minutes or until done.Serve immediately with sauce over it.Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 22:12:08 EDT From: Mordonna22 at aol.com Subject: SC - Grilled Salmon - my redaction Tonight I served grilled salmon and a spinach tart. Every drop and crumb was eaten by we three ladies, and I got rave reviews! Harleian MS. 4016 154 Samon roste in Sauce. Take a Salmond, and cut him rounde, chyne and all, and roste the peces on a gredire; And take wyne, and pouder of Canell and drawe it [th]orgh a streynour; And take smale myced oynons, and caste [th]ere- to, and lete hem boyle; And [th]en take vynegre, or vergeous, and pouder ginger, and cast there-to; And [th]en ley the samon in a dissh, and cast [th]e sirip [th]eron al hote, & serue it forth 154 Salmon roasted in Sauce. Take a Salmon, and cut him round, backbone and all, and roast the pieces on a gridiron; And take wine, and powder of Cinnamon, and draw it through a strainer; And take small minced onions, and cast thereto, and let them boil; And then take vinegar, or verjuice, and powdered ginger, and cast thereto; And then lay the salmon in a dish, and cast the syrup thereon all hot, & serve it forth My redaction: Three salmon steaks 2 TBS butter salt pepper Sauce 1 cup red wine (Mogen David Concord {why not}) 1/2 tsp ground cinnamon 1 cup minced onion 2 TBS red wine vinegar 1/2 tsp ginger Cook Salmon in a large sauce pan in the butter, adding salt and pepper to taste. Cook five minutes on each side. While the Salmon is cooking, make the sauce. Place wine, cinnamon, and onions in a small sauce pan and bring to a boil. Boil for 1 min, add vinegar and ginger, stir well and return to a boil. Place Salmon in a serving dish, and pour sauce over it and serve. (yummy, yummy, yummy) Mordonna Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:53:56 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - Grilled Salmon - my redaction Mordonna tried a period salmon recipe; we did the same recipe a while ago. >Harleian MS. 4016 >154 Samon roste in Sauce. Take a Salmond, and cut him rounde, chyne and all, >and roste the peces on a gredire; And take wyne, and pouder of Canell and >drawe it [th]orgh a streynour; And take smale myced oynons, and caste [th]ere- >to, and lete hem boyle; And [th]en take vynegre, or vergeous, and pouder >ginger, and cast there-to; And [th]en ley the samon in a dissh, and >cast [th]e sirip [th]eron al hote, & serue it forth > Mordonna's version: >Three salmon steaks >2 TBS butter >salt >pepper > >Sauce >1 cup red wine (Mogen David Concord {why not}) >1/2 tsp ground cinnamon >1 cup minced onion >2 TBS red wine vinegar >1/2 tsp ginger > >Cook Salmon in a large sauce pan in the butter, adding salt and pepper to >taste. Cook five minutes on each side. > >While the Salmon is cooking, make the sauce. Place wine, cinnamon, and onions >in a small sauce pan and bring to a boil. Boil for 1 min, add vinegar and >ginger, stir well and return to a boil. > >Place Salmon in a serving dish, and pour sauce over it and serve. Our version: 1 3/4 lb salmon 3/4 c white wine 3/4 t cinnamon 1 medium onion, 6 oz 1/4 c red wine vinegar 1/4 t ginger Chop onion; put onion, wine, and cinnamon in small pot, cook on medium about 20 minutes. Add ginger and vinegar. Simmer. Meanwhile, take salmon steaks, cut into serving sized pieces, place on ungreased baking pan or cookie sheet. Broil for 10 minutes until lightly browned. Turn salmon, making certain pieces are separated, cook another 4 minutes or until done. Serve immediately with sauce over it. >(yummy, yummy, yummy) >Mordonna So was ours, in spite of the fact we did the sauce with noticably different proportions and ours was cooked much longer. This is one I want to include when I (one of these years) do a proper Lenten feast. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 21:45:19 -0400 From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: SC - More On Baconn'd Herring Breakfasts (Long!) Cindy Renfrow wrote: > Back in February we were discussing 'Baconn'd Herring' without resolution > as to what it meant. I just ran across this in Le Menagier (The notes are > M. Pichon's): > > "SAUMON frais soit baconn,(1) et gardez l'eschine pour rostir; puis > despeciez par dales cuites en eaue, et > du vin et du sel au cuire; mengi au poivre jaunet ou la cameline et en > past, qui veult, pouldr (2) > d'espices; et se le saumon est sal, soit mengi au vin et la ciboule par > rouelles.(3) > > (1)Fum. Voy. Du Cange au mot Baco. > > (2)Peut-tre faut-il lire pouldre en sous-entendant avec. > > (3)G. C. , 69." > > Translation please? After a little more consideration, I've discarded a lot of my earlier attempt at a translation. (Computer programs just aren't made for this kind of thing, not that I paid much attention to what Power Translator said, anyway !) I still haven't run across anything like it in the cookery sections of my Eileen Power translation of le Menagier, but I did manage to run across the following, almost identical passage elsewhere. From the Vatican's copy of Le Viandier de Taillevent, translated by Terence Scully: "124. Saumon frez. Baconn, et gardez l'eschine pour rostir; puis le depecies par dalles et soit cuit en eaue, du vin et du sel au cuire; et soit mengi au poivre jaunet ou a la cameline; et le mectent aucuns ressuyer sur le grail au mengir; et en past, qui veult, pouldr d'espices, et soit mengi a la cameline; et s'il est sall, soit cuit en eaue sans sel et mengis au vin et a la ciboule miciee. "124. Fresh Salmon. It should be larded, and keep the spine in it for roasting (var.: frying in a pan); then pick it apart by layers, and cook it in water and wine, with salt; it should be eaten with yellow Pepper Sauce or with Cameline Sauce. Some people set it to dry on the grill for eating. Alternatively, in a pasty, sprinkled with spice powder, and eaten with Cameline Sauce. If it is salted, it should be cooked in water without salt and eaten with wine and chopped shallots." Okay, I admit calling the ciboules onions may have been a bit hasty. What are we left with? Interestingly enough, we are back to the point of wondering whether baconned herring is herring with bacon or other lard added, or herring cured or otherwise treated like bacon. Scully seems to go for the former theory in the case of the salmon recipe quoted, while Pichon seems to espouse the latter idea. Scully does point out several instances of "baconner" used as a verb, as opposed to the use of "lard" as a verb, but also sez he believes baconner to be a corruption of another verb. The bottom line is that Scully says he feels the fish is to be larded, and cites a couple of other uses of a similar verb, but then he says he's not sure, it may be that the fish is to be studded, as with cloves or some such (boutonner). Pichon pretty clearly thinks the reference is to salmon being smoked, unless I'm vastly mistaken. In any case, I'm still not sure I buy the Scully interpretation of the bit about the chine. He seems to feel a dual cooking process is involved, first roasting, then removing it from the bones and breaking it up, and simmering in water with wine and salt. Scully, of course, seems to attribute all acts of unknown motivation to medical theory: he says the second cooking process is a boiling, thus "exposing it to the warming and drying effects of wine and salt." I'm not sure I buy this, since even if salmon is unusally cold and moist, you'd think a roasting would be the way to counteract this. And, if wine and salt were really necessary, why spoil it with a cooling, moist cooking method like boiling? Yes, I know boiling is in fact really hot, just take it up with Galen, please, okay? I'm still inclined to think there is at least some possibility that the roasting is for the upper, back portion of the fish, and the boiling for the fatty rib and ventral area meat. Regarding the footnotes, the first refers to an author named Du Cange, suggesting Du Cange uses the word "baco'. I have no access to anything written by Du Cange, but his name is mentioned in a footnote by Eileen Power in her translation of Le Menagier. It is, unfortunately, in connection with an entirely different passage so doesn't help us here, much. As for the third footnote, I haven't the foggiest idea who or what G.C. is. Well, I'm done for now. Now is the time for anyone wishing to translate this into poetry, or include lamb's lettuce in the recipe, to speak now or forever hold his/her piece (and you know who you are!!!) ; ) In wild hopes this has helped, instead of just making everything more confusing, Adamantius Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:29:31 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - More On Baconn'd Herring Breakfasts (Long!) >Interestingly enough, we are back to the point of wondering >whether baconned herring is herring with bacon or other lard added, or herring >cured or otherwise treated like bacon. Scully seems to go for the former >theory in the case of the salmon recipe quoted, while Pichon seems to espouse >the latter idea. Scully does point out several instances of "baconner" used as >a verb, as opposed to the use of "lard" as a verb, but also sez he believes >baconner to be a corruption of another verb. The bottom line is that Scully >says he feels the fish is to be larded, and cites a couple of other uses of a >similar verb, but then he says he's not sure, it may be that the fish is to be >studded, as with cloves or some such (boutonner). Pichon pretty clearly thinks >the reference is to salmon being smoked, unless I'm vastly mistaken. "Larded" seems unlikely, to me anyway, because the salmon is fish & the lard is meat, & they seem to be mutually exclusive in most period recipes. (At least the ones I can remember at the moment...) Also, a salmon is described as being a fat fish, rather than a lean one. Do you typically add fat to salmon when you cook it? >I'm still inclined to think there is at least some possibility that the >roasting is for the upper, back portion of the fish, and the boiling for the >fatty rib and ventral area meat. I'm inclined to agree with your first assessment: >fresh SALMON [belly?] is smoked, (1) and keep the chine for roasting; In other words, the salmon is divided & one part is smoked & the other part roasted. A salmon is a big fish, after all. The direction to partially-roast & then simmer in wine, or other liquid, is found in other recipes. In fact Aoife's recipe for stwed beef does the same thing. The partial roasting (or broiling) brings out the flavor, & the simmering tenderizes the flesh & adds other flavors. >Regarding the footnotes, the first refers to an author named Du Cange, >suggesting Du Cange uses the word "baco'. I have no access to anything written >by Du Cange, but his name is mentioned in a footnote by Eileen Power in her >translation of Le Menagier. It is, unfortunately, in connection with an >entirely different passage so doesn't help us here, much. As for the third >footnote, I haven't the foggiest idea who or what G.C. is. G. C. is a work called "le Grand cuisinier de toutes cuisines". I don't any info on Du Cange -- does anyone have access to Attar or Bitting, etc. >Adamantius Cindy renfrow at skylands.net Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 01:07:46 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - More On Baconn'd Herring Breakfasts (Long!) Here is the Hinson translation of what seems to be the passage in question. FRESH SALMON should be smoked, and leave the backbone in for roasting; then cut it into slices boiled in water, with wine and salt during cooking; eat with yellow pepper or with cameline sauce and in pastry, whatever you like, sprinkled with spices; and if the salmon is salted, let it be eaten with wine and sliced scallions. I believe the Powers translation is very fragmentary, so far as the cooking section is concerned, with chunks omitted without notice. The Hinson translation, incidentally, is on my web page. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Subject: Re: SC - Salmon recipe with beer > From Gervase Markham's The English Huswife: > > To seeth fresh Salmon. > > Take a little water, and as much Beere and Salt, > and put thereto Parsley, Time, and Rosemarie, and > let all thes boyle together; then put in your > Salmon, and make your broth sharpe with some > Vinigar. > > My redaction: <snipped> It's a lovely period recipe but I do wonder about your redaction. Basically the period recipe is calling for making a rich broth of beer, herbs, salt and vinegar then poaching the fish. There's no oil or pepper mentioned and I do wonder about the use of even a high sided jelly roll pan to poach fish in. Please believe that I'm not flaming or attacking you but this is one of the simpler period recipes and do wonder how you came about with this redaction. Did you try it following Markham's recipe and find it lacking? > Huette Gunthar Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:25:18 -0800 (PST) From: Huette von <ahrenshav at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: SC - Salmon recipe with beer - ---"Michael F. Gunter" <michael.gunter at fnc.fujitsu.com> wrote: > > From Gervase Markham's The English Huswife: > > > > To seeth fresh Salmon. > > > > Take a little water, and as much Beere and Salt, > > and put thereto Parsley, Time, and Rosemarie, and > > let all thes boyle together; then put in your > > Salmon, and make your broth sharpe with some > > Vinigar. > > > > My redaction: > > <snipped> > > It's a lovely period recipe but I do wonder about your > redaction. Basically the period recipe is calling for > making a rich broth of beer, herbs, salt and vinegar > then poaching the fish. > > There's no oil or pepper mentioned and I do wonder about > the use of even a high sided jelly roll pan to poach > fish in. > > Please believe that I'm not flaming or attacking you > but this is one of the simpler period recipes and do > wonder how you came about with this redaction. Did you > try it following Markham's recipe and find it lacking? > > Gunthar Yes, Gunthar, I did find some problems in redacting this. I probably should have explained this earlier. The oil was added to keep the salmon from sticking to the pan. I picked olive oil because Markham used it in other recipes. Pepper is not in the original recipe. It is just a personal choice that I made. You can make this recipe without it. I personally like it better with pepper, but that was my choice. I should have left it out of the recipe I posted. As for my addendum about making this recipe for banquets in jelly-roll pans. To make this in a skillet for 300 banqueters would be timeconsuming and it would be difficult to keep the salmon uniformly hot before serving it. Poaching in an oven instead of over an open flame is much more practical and timesaving. The flavor and texture of the salmon is no different either way. I managed to get 100 pounds of salmon in two professional sized ovens all at once and served all at once, while still hot. Huette Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:33:36 -0500 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: SC - Salmon Casserole (Recipe) Here's what I had for dinner tonight. CAZUELA DE SALMON -- Salmon Casserole from _Libro de Guisados_ by Ruperto de Nola (Spanish, 1529) translation and redaction mine You must take the clean and well-washed salmon; and put it in a casserole with your spices which are: galingale, and a little pepper and ginger and saffron; and all of this well ground, and cast upon the fish with salt, and a little verjuice or orange juice, and let it go to the fire of embers; and then take blanched almonds and raisins and pine nuts and all herbs. That is, moraduj, which is called marjoram, and parsley, and mint; and when the casserole is nearly half-cooked cast all this inside. Ingredients: 1 pound salmon fillet 1/4 teaspoon ground galingale 1/8 teaspoon ground ginger 1/8 teaspoon peppercorns and a pinch of saffron, ground together salt to taste juice of 1 Valencia orange (approx. 1/2 cup) 1 Tablespoon pine nuts 1 Tablespoon blanched slivered almonds 2 Tablespoons raisins 1/2 teaspoon dried marjoram 2 Tablespoons fresh parsley, chopped 1 Tablespoon fresh mint, chopped Directions: Preheat the oven to 350 F. Place the salmon in a deep casserole dish. Sprinkle with the ground spices and the salt. Add orange juice to the casserole. Baked, uncovered, for 10 minutes. Add the chopped herbs, nuts and raisins, and baste with the orange juice. Bake 10 more minutes, or until the salmon flakes easily at its thickest part. Serve with rice. Notes: In the "embers" thread, I discussed my concerns over cooking method. I felt that I could not be sure of thorough, even cooking on my electric stove. Since baking in the oven is a period method of making the same dish with other fish, I felt it was an acceptable alteration. A Florida Valencia orange was the sourest that I could find locally. Its juice was noticeably tarter than store-bought juice. Truly tart orange juice or verjuice would give the recipe more of a sweet-and-sour taste, especially with the raisins for contrast. The juice cooked down and blended with the seasonings and the salmon drippings to make a very pleasant sauce. I spooned some of it over the rice. I would be tempted next time to use more juice and thereby have more sauce, although the recipe does specify using just a little liquid. I used rice as an accompaniment. The recipe gives no advice about side dishes, but another casserole recipe in the same chapter, for skate ( Raja bastis, a kind of ray), says that it is very good with rice. Proportions of seasonings were guesses. The only taste that really stood out was the galingale. I am undecided as to whether next time I should leave things as they are, cut back on the galingale, or increase some of the other herbs and spices to get a stronger but balanced flavor. My lord and I both enjoyed it and would gladly have it again. There are similar recipes for other fish and shellfish, so I may well experiment with some of those, too. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:02:19 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - early Irish -- doc. Gerekr at aol.com wrote: > And yes, Gerek and I have finally remembered that British Isles "salmon" > is not even the same family (I think) as Pacific NorthWet salmon, but oh > well! (too late for this year, I'm pretty sure) What they call salmon > in Scotland and Ireland is more like what we'd call fresh-water trout? > Yes, no, sideways, somebody?? If so maybe we can get a step closer next > year, 8-). There are seven species of salmon, of which one is native to the Atlantic and six Pacific. In Ireland and Scotland (not to mention Brittany, Wales, Cornwall and the Isle of Man ; )...) the Atlantic Salmon is what we're talking about. They're fairly closely related to Pacific salmon, though, all being in the same family or order (I forget which), along with char, which are really trout, and trout proper. On the other hand, if we're trying to bounce particular types of salmon from the appelation, might I suggest that Pacific salmon are really some kinda char? I think the Atlantic species has at least seniority in the use of the word "salmon", as, by the way, does striped bass, walleye (yellow pike) and shad ; ). Seriously, though, very very very very very few people can distinguish Atlantic salmon from the Pacific species when smoked, especially since now some of the smoked salmon imported from Scotland and Ireland is actually Pacific. In my opinion simply knowing the difference and making the distinction in your head is sufficient without getting hold of Atlantic salmon for your use at three times the price. Adamantius Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 03:21:50 GMT From: kerric at pobox.alaska.net (Kerri Canepa) Subject: SC - The first fish recipe I was looking through _To the King's Taste_ when I ran across a most intriguing recipe. It's Tart de Brymlent which is mostly fruit with salmon in it. Hm.... Looked it up in Forme of Curye to make sure I had the right one. Tart de Brymlent Take fyges and raysons and waisshe hem in wyne, and grinde hem smale with apples and peres clene ypiked. Take hem up and cast hem in a pot with wyne and sugar. Take salwar salmon ysode other codlyng other haddok and bray hem smale and do thereto white powdors and hool spices and salt and seeth it, and whanneit is sode ynowz, take it up, and do it in a vessel, and lat it kele. Make a coffyn an ynche depe and do the fars therein. Plant it bove with prunes and damysyns, take the stones out, and with dates quarte rede, and pike clene, and cover the coffyn and bake it wel and serve it forth. Take figs and raisins and wash them in wine and grind them small with apples and pears that have been cored. Take it up and cast it in a pot with wine and sugar. Take (young?) salmon that has been poached* or cod or haddock and cut them small and add white powder and whole spices and salt and simmer it, and when it is simmered* enough, take it up and put it in a vessel and let it cool. Make a pastry an inch deep and put the mixture in it. Put prunes and damsons (take the pits out) on top with quartered dates without pits and cover the pastry and bake it well and serve it forth. *ysode or sode seems to mean "sodden" which I've interpreted to mean poached when referring to the salmon and simmered when referring to the mixture. Literally it probably means "wet." For the first attempt, my apprentice and I used the following: For the filling: 2 Bosc pears 2 Pacific Rose apples 10 dried Mission figs (about 2/3 cup) 2/3 cup raisins 2/3 cup red wine (merlot) 1/4 cup sugar 1 1/2 tsp white powder (recipe from _Take a Thousand Eggs_) 1/2 tsp grains of paradise 1/2 tsp salt 2 cups finely flaked poached Coho salmon The topping: 5 small plums cut into slices 6 dates cut into slices 6 prunes cut into slices The coffin: 1 cup all purpose flour water Mixed first six ingredients together and put over medium heat. While it was cooking, poached the salmon (we started with 1 3/4 lbs of fish) in 2 cups of water and some salt. Let it cool and flaked it. When the fruit mixture had completely gone soft, added the flaked salmon, the white powder, grains of paradise, and salt. Had to add about a cup of water because the mixture was too dry to boil. Raised the temperature so that the mixture bubbled and stirred frequently to prevent sticking. When fish had broken up into fine bits and fruit was mushy, took it off heat and let it cool until no longer steaming. Made the coffin dough with flour and enough water to hold together in a ball. Kneaded dough for about three minutes and removed a third for the cover. Rolled dough out and placed in a 10" greased quiche pan with some dough overlapping the edges. Spread fruit/fish mixture into pan and placed cut fruits on top. Covered with rolled out dough, rolled edges together to seal, put four slashes in top, and put in 350 degree F oven for 30 minutes. Notes: For a dish with a combination of foods I wasn't sure about, it was quite good. We figured we'd cook the fruit mixture less before we added the fish and make sure the fish was finely flaked before adding. We, of course, made several guesses. We could have used more wine; we couldn't tell there had been any put into it at all. We could have used cod (since it was available fresh) but went with salmon although it's Pacific not Atlantic salmon. Is there much of a taste difference? The "whole spices" could be anything and we thought about adding cloves and cubebs but cloves can be rather overpowering if not used carefully and we had no cubebs. We did have grains of paradise so we used that. They gave a spicy, peppery almost taste to the mixture. We think we'd add another 1/2 tsp of both the white powder and grains of paradise. Neither of us had tried making a coffin and since we knew it wasn't supposed to be eaten necessarily, we just made a flour/water dough. Kneading the dough gave us a strong durable container that neither cracked nor leaked and we hadn't prebaked it either. It would definitely stand on its own on a platter. Cutting the top off could certainly be turned into a one server show since the diners would have no idea what was inside and with the fruit laid out decoratively on top, it was quite pretty. We had way too much sliced fruit and used all the plums but half of the prunes and figs. We'll probably just slice the plums in half next time. It tastes very much like modern "minced meat" filling but with just enough salmon flavor to note the contrast. It's very good hot and okay but not exciting at room temperature. The recipe above would probably make two 6" pans worth. Lorna Sass translates "Brymlent" as "mid lent" and I suppose that could be right. If so, given that medieval cooks often would substitute fish into their meat dishes, if this was a lenten dish, I wonder what meat would have been used for meat days? A ground pork would be delectable but beef marrow would probably work just as well. As an aside, this dish could actually be considered healthy by today's standards. There's no additional fats but that in the salmon, not much sugar or salt, and there's lots of fruit of different types in it. A diabetic coworker tried a taste and pronounced it good (she looked surprised too). We're only planning to serve a 6" pan to about 8 people so portions would be pretty small but probably worth at least one daily serving of fruit. Kerri Cedrin Etainnighean, OL Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 01:03:41 -0500 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: SC - Spanish salmon recipe (was: Spanish noodles) I had offered: >> We also tried the salmon recipe you posted here; I'll post our version of >> that if people like. and Brighid replied: >Please do! I'm still very new at redacting, and would love to see what an >experienced cook does with that one. I'm actually not that experienced with fish, but this is what I came up with. CAZUELA DE SALMON -- Salmon Casserole from _Libro de Guisados_ by Ruperto de Nola (Spanish, 1529) translation Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba, Settmour Swamp (Robin Carroll-Mann) You must take the clean and well-washed salmon; and put it in a casserole with your spices which are: galingale, and a little pepper and ginger and saffron; and all of this well ground, and cast upon the fish with salt, and a little verjuice or orange juice, and let it go to the fire of embers; and then take blanched almonds and raisins and pine nuts and all herbs. That is, moraduj, which is called marjoram, and parsley, and mint; and when the casserole is nearly half-cooked cast all this inside. 1.9 lb salmon 1/2 t galingale 1/8 t pepper 1/4 t ginger 15 threads saffron 1/4 t salt 3 T verjuice (or sour orange juice) 1/4 c blanched almonds 3 T raisins 1 T pine nuts 1 t fresh marjoram 1 T fresh parsley 1 t fresh mint Put salmon fillets in heavy pot and sprinkle on spices and verjuice. Cover and put on stove. I put it on as low a heat as the stove allows, then chopped the herbs and got the nuts and raisins ready. After 20 minutes the verjuice in the pot was hot but not yet boiling and I turned it up slightly until it was at a simmer (another 5 minutes) and then turned it almost all the way down. 15 minutes later I added the remaining ingredients, 10 minutes after that, it was done. Comments: good; next time, turn the heat up a bit more at the beginning (medium low or so) and turn down after it is at a simmer; maybe more verjuice; chop herbs very fine. It came out looking very Nouvelle Cuisine--the contrasting colors of the salmon, herbs, white nuts, and raisins, and the use of such ingredients as pine nuts, saffron, and verjuice. We don't have sour oranges yet--Cariadoc planted a tree, but it was less than a year ago. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 05:56:21 EDT From: Mordonna22 at aol.com Subject: SC - For submission to the Chronus Draconum FROM MORDONNA'S KITCHEN CAZUELA DE SALMON From Libro de Guisados by Ruperto de Nola (Spanish, 1529) Translation by Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba, Settmour Swamp (Robin Carrol-Mann) as found on the SCA Cooks e-mail list on Sunday October 3, 1999. You must take the clean and well-washed salmon, and put it in a casserole with your spices which are galingale, and a little pepper and ginger and saffron, and all of this well ground, and cast upon the fish with salt, and a little verjuice or orange juice, and let it go to the fire of embers, and then take blanched almonds and raisins and pine nuts and all herbs. That is moraduj, which is called marjoram, and parsley, and mint, and when the casserole is nearly half-cooked, cast all this inside. 2 lb. Salmon Steaks 1 teaspoon galingale 1/2 teaspoon pepper 1/2 teaspoon ginger 1 pinch saffron 1 teaspoon salt 1/4 cup apple cider vinegar 1/4 cup water 1/2 cup slivered, blanched almonds 1/2 cup raisins 1/4 cup pine nuts 2 tsp. each fresh marjoram, parsley, mint finely diced Place fish steaks in a large, heavy covered cast iron pan. Mix spices and vinegar and water together and sprinkle over fish. Bring to a simmer, covered, over medium heat and allow to simmer 15 minutes. Turn steaks, add nuts, raisins, and herbs and re-cover and allow to simmer another 15 minutes. Add more water if necessary to keep pan from drying out. Notes: As I had no verjuice, or sour orange juice, I used diluted cider vinegar. Next time I will try the juice of Seville oranges. Verjuice is the juice of sour fruit, such as green (as in not-ripe) grapes or pomegranate and was a common ingredient in medieval cooking. Sweet oranges did not reach the Spanish peninsula until very late period, so Seville orange juice would be more suited to the recipe than sweet juices such as Valencia. I cooked this for my parents and grandson. I served it with a green salad with vinegar and oil dressing, and spring peas in butter and garlic. My father swore he doesn't like salmon any other way than in fried croquets, but when we convinced him to try it, he liked it a lot. He expressed regret that I had not made more. My fourteen month old grandson demolished his with gusto, but then again, we have not found a food he does not demolish with gusto. My mother took a couple of spoonfuls of the juices and herbs from the dish and used it instead of dressing on her salad and declared it delicious. Note on the SCA-Cooks e-mail list: This list is for anyone interested in medieval cooking: recipes, techniques, and ingredients. To subscribe, send e-mail to Majordomo at Ansteorra.Org with the words Subscribe SCA-Cooks as the body of the message. Mordonna the Cook is head cook for House Warrior Haven. She is from late sixteenth century Ireland and can read and write. She has studied all the great chefs of history. She is a widow. She is the alter ego of Anne Francoise DuBosc, an early 14th century French noblewoman who can neither read nor write, and who has never learned to cook. Both are loyal subjects of the Barony of SunDragon, Kingdom of Atenveldt. Pat Griffin is a customer service tech for Conair Corporation, an avid cook, and has been in the Society for over three years and four Estrellas. All three can be reached at Mordonna22 at AOL.COM Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:19:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: SC - toys for tot feast - --- AlviraMacD at aol.com wrote: > the fish is my only big ticket item and I'm thinking that it will go to being > a pasty and I'll serve the wondeours chicken loaf in the same remove. > Some day I'll have the budget to do my Flesh, Fish and Fowl feast! : ) > Alvira Late August and most of September are when the Salmon swim upstream to spawn. It is usually the time when it is cheapest to buy salmon. Several years ago, I was the Head Cook for Caid's 12th Night, which is in mid-January. I found an ad for whole salmon for $1 per lb that Sept. prior. Since I was feeding 300, I bought 100 lb and froze it, until just before I needed it. It froze very well, and the salmon was a big hit, even amongst the non-fish eaters. If you have access to a goodly amount of freezer space and don't want to bust your budget, start looking thru the ads in August. It is the best way to get a good deal. Huette Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:29:57 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: Saumon Gentil (was: SC - Re: SC- Turkish Food) UlfR wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, Philip & Susan Troy wrote: > > discovering that after the servers brought out my rendition of the > > 14th-century English Saumon Gentil, > > Did you _really_ think you could get away with this? I'm planning on > making this at some feast, and I'm not quite happy with my results. My > main questions are: > > 1. How do you handle the saffron (it's obviously not a scribal > error...). Grind it with the spices, or dissolve it in small amount > water and add that? I seem to recall infusing the saffron in a small amount of water, maybe 1/4 cup, then grinding the moist threads with the fish. > 2. What effect did you go for with the spicing? Spicy, or just adding a > hint to the fish? Somewhere in between modern delicate and spicy. Warming... I would say most of what came through was the cumin garnish. > 3. Did you have slav^Wassistants with mortars, or did you grind it some > other way? I'm thinking about using a regular meat grinder (limited > slave labour, and app. 50-60 guests). I used a food processor... : (. I normally will try a dish doing it as close to the instructions specify as possible, then adapt it for larger quantities, industrial equipment, etc. Originally, when working with just one fillet, I minced the fish with a knife and then used a mortar. Observations: 1. This is one of the more glaring culinary errors perpetrated by Hieatt and Butler in an otherwise good edition (CoI). I believe this is pretty straightforward, and that nobody ever intended the bones to be ground, or any such nonsense. Fillet the fish, grind the _meat_, season it, extrude it, poach, drain, plate, garnish, serve. It's a salmon dish, and you take out the bones before grinding it, fer Heaven's sake... with all respect to two great scholars, I have to borrow an expression from my kid: "Du-uh!!!" 2. Don't be too scrupulous about trimming away the salmon's fat. It'll taste a tiny bit fishier, but then it _is_ fish (it should taste like chicken???) and it'll be moister. 3. Undercooked salmon is infinitely better than overcooked, unless it isn't fresh, in which case you shouldn't be eating or serving it anyway. The fish will continue to cook after you remove the pan from the flame or oven (depending on how you do it), and after you remove the fish from the water. I suspect the best thing would be to stop the actual cooking of the fish before it is actually done, so that by the time you're ready to serve, it'll be cooked through. 4. You might think about using a sausage stuffing tube instead of a horn, if it comes as an attachment to your grinder. I think we used disposable pastry bags with large tubes. Adamantius (hey, lookit, we're talking about medieval food!) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:15:47 +0100 (MET) From: UlfR <parlei-sc at algonet.se> Subject: Re: Saumon Gentil (was: SC - Re: SC- Turkish Food) On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Philip & Susan Troy wrote: > I seem to recall infusing the saffron in a small amount of water, maybe > 1/4 cup, then grinding the moist threads with the fish. What I have done as well. Any other method I have tried gives it some sort of "spotty jaudice" look. > > 2. What effect did you go for with the spicing? Spicy, or just adding a > > hint to the fish? > > Somewhere in between modern delicate and spicy. Warming... I would say > most of what came through was the cumin garnish. My experience as well, unless I overspiced it. > I used a food processor... : (. I normally will try a dish doing it as > close to the instructions specify as possible, then adapt it for larger > quantities, industrial equipment, etc. Originally, when working with > just one fillet, I minced the fish with a knife and then used a mortar. First time I did it was in a camp, using two knives (only a small mortar, and 6 hungry people). A mortar came out slightly more homogenous, but not much. > straightforward, and that nobody ever intended the bones to be ground, > or any such nonsense. Fillet the fish, grind the _meat_, season it, > extrude it, poach, drain, plate, garnish, serve. It's a salmon dish, and Naturally. IIRC I left some of the finest bones, but that was expidiency, not design. > 4. You might think about using a sausage stuffing tube instead of a > horn, if it comes as an attachment to your grinder. I think we used > disposable pastry bags with large tubes. Every time I have made it I used either a pastry bag or a simple plastic bag with one of the corners cut off. I would think that if I use the sausage tube of the grinder that I would have to drop the pieces on a plate, and then into the pot. Do you think that would work? Have you tried using the actual horn? For anything? > Adamantius /UlfR - -- Par Leijonhufvud parlei at algonet.se Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:15:34 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: Saumon Gentil (was: SC - Re: SC- Turkish Food) "Laura C. Minnick" wrote: > Philip & Susan Troy wrote: > > 1. This is one of the more glaring culinary errors perpetrated by Hieatt > > and Butler in an otherwise good edition (CoI). I believe this is pretty > > straightforward, and that nobody ever intended the bones to be ground, > > or any such nonsense. Fillet the fish, grind the _meat_, season it, > > extrude it, poach, drain, plate, garnish, serve. <snip> > It occurs to me that they might have assumed that many folks might try > this using canned salmon (---shudder---). After canning, the bones are > really soft and could be ground, adding calcium to the mix. I don't like > them, but my mom used to pick out the vertebrae and eat them. And to the > fat, the canned stuff has bits of skin and fat that you have to pick > out- they are slimy and beyons gross. I used to give them to our cat. > > If you are using fresh salmon I think what you've said applies. I agree that a quick read-through might give that impression, but there's a big problem. You're relying on the uncooked fish proteins to hold the dish together; lacking any other binder, Lutheran or otherwise, if you drop mushed-up cooked fish into boiling water, you're going to get more or less unpleasant results. It's the original recipe, that Hieatt and Butler are commenting on, which instructs us to do away the bones, and then grind hem in an mortar, or some such. The textual problem is that you have to assume they're talking about salmon, since it's in the title but IIRC doesn't mention it by name in the body of the recipe, and _then_ it says to take out the bones, and cast in a mortar. A modern grammarian would probably conclude that we have a run-on sentence, one of which lacks a specified predicate or complement noun. Medieval recipes often tend to be run-on sentences by modern standards. Are we throwing the bones (the last noun mentioned) or the salmon (the main subject of the recipe) into the mortar? Hieatt and Butler seem to be working on the assumption that you remove the bones and grind them, and that's to some extent supportable, but I think it's far more likely you take a salmon, remove the bones, and grind it. Similarly, if I have a loin of veal and want to make meatballs, I take out the chine, rib, and any pelvic bone structures before grinding the meat. Think about it. Suppose your recipe said, "A Veal Dish: remove bones, grind, season with X, roll into balls, cook, serve." Doesn't it make a fair amount of sense to figure that it is the muscle tissue being ground, rather than the bones? I hope it's clear to people that I'm using 'Lainie as a sounding-board, and not foaming at the mouth and yelling at her... not that I haven't done both of those things at various times in the past. ; ) Actually, I don't mind canned salmon -- it has its uses, but like most other foods, it can't pretend to be what it is not, and the first thing it is not is fresh salmon. Adamantius Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:48:38 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: Saumon Gentil (was: SC - Re: SC- Turkish Food) "Laura C. Minnick" wrote: > > Are there any number or gender clues in the original? <snip> > What the original is in is Middle English- a sort of halfway point > between the Anglo-Saxon (Old English) and teh 'Shakspearean' Early > Modern English. There are quantifiers (numbers) in the pronouns, as we > do now (I/we, he/they, etc.) but nouns are no longer gendered, as they > were in the A/S. They were gradually losing their declensions and > heading towards position within the sentence to determine the part of > speech. So much for theory, albeit perfectly correct. Here's why... besides, the original recipe was requested. It is written in a sort of Middle English shorthand: "50. Of saumon gentil. Do out (th)e bones, so(th)(th)en in an mortar kast and make hit wel meddelen. Flour & pepper & gilofre; cast in kanel. Saffron vor to colouren (th)urh an horn (th)ou make passen, seo(th)(th)en in water (th)ou make hit boillen, & to gobouns veire hewen. Comin (th)ou kast in, & to (th)e lord vor(th) bringen." BL Ms. Add. 46919 (He), published in 1985, for the Early English Text Society, by Oxford University Press, London, Toronto, New York, ed. Constance A. Hieatt and Sharon Butler, "Curye On Inglysch". Looking at it more closely, I see one could argue that the pronoun denoting whatever it is in the mortar is singular. A quick shift to modern-ish English might read, "Of salmon gentile. Take out the bones, and then put it into a mortar and mix it well together. Flour* of pepper and of cloves; put in cinnamon. Saffron for color, push it through a horn, and then boil it in water, and cut it into neat, good-sized chunks. Throw on some cumin, and bring it out to the lord." *I can't decide if the flour reference is to powdered "flour" of pepper, cloves, and cinnamon, or if you're supposed to add some wheat flour in addition to the spices. A small amount would probably help the texture and the moisture level, turning it from something like fish burgers to fish gnocchi, except for the fact that fairly few contemporary English recipes seem to refer to ground grain as flour rather than meal, and of those that do, _very_ few seem to use flour in this way, seeming to rely, in general, more heavily on breadcrumbs. So, I'm inclined to lean in the direction of fine powder of pepper, cloves, and cinnamon, rather than wheat or other grain flour. Adamantius Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:56:08 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: Saumon Gentil (was: SC - Re: SC- Turkish Food) Stefan li Rous wrote: > Ok, would one of you two (or someone else), please post the original > recipe for this and perhaps Hieatt and Butler's redaction? And > Adamantius, how about posting yours? I posted the original last night, H&B don't provide a readaction (in this case, Gott sei dank!), and I don't have a redaction to speak of, I just went ahead and made it from the original recipe. I filleted and skinned two or three (for that crowd, probably three) Atlantic salmon, each weighing roughly fifteen pounds, then removed the little transverse pin bones with, IIRC, needle-nose pliers (a standard professional tool for this job), then ground the flesh and as much of the back and belly fat as I could include, in a Cuisinart set on pulse, so we would get a slightly rough texture rather than simply a puree. Seasoned with salt, saffron infused in a little fish stock (yes, I cheated and made a stock from the skin and bones, then used it to poach my fish) then adding it to the fish before grinding, and ground cloves. Extruded through a pastry bag instead of a horn (and I can attest my pastry bag has never been involved in any way in the death of Edward II) and poached in the simmering fish stock until the pieces floated. Drained and served under a sprinkle of coarsely crushed, freshly toasted cumin seed. I think I may have made a green sauce to go on the side, with a little of the fish stock, but that was an afterthought. Exceedingly tasty when freshly and properly cooked, horrible overcooked (we kept a couple pieces hot, to see what would happen -- lacking even the variegated texture that overcooked fish can have, it kind of felt like sawdust in the mouth). I suspect it might not be at all bad if left in the cooking liquid to cool completely, then served cold. Adamantius Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:16:09 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: Saumon Gentil (was: SC - Re: SC- Turkish Food) Jenne Heise wrote: > Uh-- guys, where did the Gillyflowers go? And where the did the cloves > come from? > > > > "50. Of saumon gentil. Do out (th)e bones, so(th)(th)en in an mortar > > > kast and make hit wel meddelen. Flour & pepper & gilofre; cast in kanel. > > > Saffron vor to colouren (th)urh an horn (th)ou make passen, > > > seo(th)(th)en in water (th)ou make hit boillen, & to gobouns veire > > > hewen. Comin (th)ou kast in, & to (th)e lord vor(th) bringen." > Your Translation: > > > "Of salmon gentile. Take out the bones, and then put it into a mortar > > > and mix it well together. Flour* of pepper and of cloves; put in > > > cinnamon. Saffron for color, push it through a horn, and then boil it in > > > water, and cut it into neat, good-sized chunks. Throw on some cumin, and > > > bring it out to the lord." Gilofre is a standard abbreviation for "cloues de gilofre", a.k.a. cloves gilofre, cloves gillyflower (sometimes the actual clove pink flower is intended, but not in this case, AFAIK). Adamantius Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 20:16:27 +0200From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com>Subject: Re: SC - cawdel of samoun>I've just been playing with cawdel of samoun (Forme of curye 114). The>recipie does not, unlesss I'm missing something tell you to pass it>though a sive or work it with a mortar, but in Pleyn Delit they run it>though a blender. Which one of us is missing the point?>>Recipie? http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/foc/>>/UlfR>-->UlfR parlei-sc at algonet.se Cawdel of Samon #CXI in Forme of Cury, loosely translated says:Take the guts of Salmon and make them clean. Parboil them a little. Takethem up and dice them. Slit the white of Leeks and carve them small. Coolthe broth and put the leeks therein with oil and let it boil togethertogether [sic]. Put the cut Salmon therein, make a mixture of Almond milkand of bread and cast thereto spices, saffron and salt, seethe it well. Andlook that it be not standing/thick.My copy of Pleyn Delit (1987 ed., #50) does not run it through a sieve orblender. Cindy Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 04:41:19 +0200 (MET DST)From: UlfR <parlei-sc at algonet.se>Subject: Re: SC - cawdel of samounOn Sun, 8 Apr 2001, Philip & Susan Troy wrote:> > My copy of Pleyn Delit (1979 revision) does not mention a blender.> > > > Is your copy the 1976 original? If so, perhaps this is one of> > the revisions (corrections) they made in 1979.No, mine is the "Second edition 1996"> Actually, my copy is an unrevised first edition, and it doesn't mention> a blender either, now that I've had a chance to dig it out. UlfR, did> somebody dictate this to you and perhaps "seethe" turned into "sieve"?"Pour the cooking broth into a blender with breadcrumbs and seasoningsand blend until smooth...". In neither the original text they list, the matching one in Curye on Inglyish, or onhttp://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/foc/FoC095small.html did I find anymentioning of sieving or otherwise pulping the poor innocent salmon.BTW, would you say that "spices, safron and salt" would match powdourfort, with some extra ginger? Since I cheated and used some fish stockextra salt was not an option.- -- UlfR Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 23:05:24 -0400From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>Subject: Re: SC - cawdel of samounUlfR wrote:> On Sun, 8 Apr 2001, Cindy M. Renfrow wrote:> > Cawdel of Samon #CXI in Forme of Cury, loosely translated says:> >> > Take the guts of Salmon and make them clean. Parboil them a little. Take> > them up and dice them. Slit the white of Leeks and carve them small. Cool> > the broth and put the leeks therein with oil and let it boil together> > together [sic]. Put the cut Salmon therein, make a mixture of Almond milk> > and of bread and cast thereto spices, saffron and salt, seethe it well. And> > look that it be not standing/thick.> > Nice to see that your translation matches mine; maybe I'm not as shabby> at it as I tend to assume. A scandinavian language does help, I suppose.> > > My copy of Pleyn Delit (1987 ed., #50) does not run it through a sieve or> > blender.> > Mine (1996, they've got it as #62) does. And since they are suppose dto> kniow WTF they are doing I was worrying about missing something that was> implied in the name, or if ycorve did not mean what I thought it did.> > Anyone know of a good middle english dictionary?Awright, I think I see what's happening here... no, ycorve probably doesmean what you think it does (note, though, that we've gone from soundsand stomachs, etc., to nice chunky muscle meat). I suspect the blenderthing is based on the recipe's instruction to make a lyour (what moderncooks would call a liaison, a thickener), essentially a smooth paste, ofbreadcrumbs and almond milk. The first edition of PD has the modern cookuse a whisk. and what they've got you doing is making your almond milkfrom some of the fish broth at the same time as you make your liaison.For practical purposes, Hieatt et al are implying that Almonds + Fishbroth + Breadcrumbs = Almond milk + Breadrumbs = Lyour. From astructural standpoint, this may be fairly accurate, but whether itconstitutes responsible teaching about medieval cookery is a matter fordebate. I'd say. Adamantius From: "Barbara Benson" <vox8 at mindspring.com> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sauce help Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:26:38 -0400 > > CAZUELA DE SALMON > [snip] > > You must take the clean and well-washed salmon, and put it in a casserole > > with your spices which are galingale, and a little pepper and ginger and > > saffron, and all of this well ground, and cast upon the fish with salt, and > > a little verjuice or orange juice, and let it go to the fire of embers, and > > then take blanched almonds and raisins and pine nuts and all herbs. That is > > moraduj, which is called marjoram, and parsley, and mint, and when the > > casserole is nearly half-cooked, cast all this inside. > I'm glad you like the recipe -- it's one of my favorites as well. (It's on > the menu for my next feast). I'm curious, though... why do you grind the > nuts? And do you grind the currants also? My interpretation is that sauce is > a thin liquid, speckled with the chopped herbs and the nuts and raisins. I do > use slivered almonds rather than whole. > > Brighid ni Chiarain Greetings, And my interpretation is even more different: 1/2 t - Galingale (fresh) 1/4 t- Pepper 1/2 t - Ginger (fresh) 12 - 15 - Threads Saffron 1/2 t - Salt 3/4 C - Bitter Orange Juice (got it in a Farmers Market in the Hispanic section 100% Seville oj) 1 T - Fresh Mint 2 T - Fresh Marjoram 2 T - Fresh Parsley 1/4 C - Pine Nuts 1/4 C - Ground Almond 1/2 C - Chopped Rasins 1 Side - Salmon Combine first 5 spices. Put salmon in an oven safe pan that has a lid. Pour orange juice over salmon and then sprinkle spice mixture over fish and pat in gently. Cook covered at 300 degrees F for 13 minutes. Wash and chop mint, marjoram and parsley to a medium size and mix well with almonds, pine nuts and raisins. After 13 minutes remove fish from oven and spread herb/nut mixture evenly over the fish. Return to the oven for an additional 7 to 10 minutes or until done. I served this at a feast and it went over explosively. Even the kitchen help was fighting over the chunk that I held back for the kitchen. I was out doing the rounds of the tables & someone stopped me to ask if there was any more salmon. I popped my head into the kitchen and asked the crew huddled around the end of the serving area and they all said - with their hands behind their backs - NO! Serena da Riva From: "Barbara Benson" <vox8 at mindspring.com> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-Cooks] Milk and Nut Allergy Questions... Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:19:10 -0400 > For the Mists Bardic, I was told to cook for between 60 and 80... If > 80 show up, there won't be much salmon, but there should be plenty of > chicken and vegetables - and i try to have plenty of bread in the > kitchen in case we need it for filler. > Anahita Do you have places such as Sam's Club where you live. I bought the salmon for my feast at Sam's and it was very good salmon. It cost $3.99/lb which was really cheap. Serena da Riva Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:00:28 -0700 From: david friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Favorite period Spanish recipes? To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> >>>>> Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann wrote: >> I'm rather fond of the Cazuela de Salmon. And Peach Pits. and Olwen asked: > Got a recipe for the salmon? >>> Our version of that one is in the Miscellany; in addition to being good, it';s really pretty--lots of color contrast. Elizabeth/Betty Cook <<< Thank you Elizabeth, but I could not find an entry for Cazuela de Salmon or Salmon. Do you call the dish some other name? Olwen <<<<< Here it is: Cazuela de Salmon- Salmon Casserole Ruperto de Nola, Libro de Guisados, 1529 Tr. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba (Robin Carroll-Mann) You must take the clean and well-washed salmon; and put it in a casserole with your spices which are: galingale, and a little pepper and ginger and saffron; and all of this well ground, and cast upon the fish with salt, and a little verjuice or orange juice, and let it go to the fire of embers; and then take blanched almonds and raisins and pine nuts and all herbs. That is, moraduj, which is called marjoram, and parsley, and mint; and when the casserole is nearly half-cooked cast all this inside. [end of original] 1.9 lb salmon 1/2 t galingale 1/8 t pepper 1/4 t ginger 15 threads saffron 1/4 t salt 3 T verjuice (or sour orange juice) 1/4 c blanched almonds 3 T raisins 1 T pine nuts 1 t fresh marjoram 1 T fresh parsley 1 t fresh mint Put salmon fillets in heavy pot and sprinkle on spices and verjuice. Cover and put on stove on medium low; as soon as it is at a simmer, turn down to very low heat. Chop the herbs very fine and get the nuts and raisins ready. After 15 minutes, add the remaining ingredients, and cook another 10 minutes. Serve. Were you looking in the current edition of the Miscellany, webbed on Cariadoc's site in pdf? http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/miscellany_pdf/Misc9recipes.pdf There is also an older version, webbed for us by Master Gregory Blount some years back; I haven't checked to see if that one has this recipe. Elizabeth/Betty CookFrom johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu Wed Aug 27 13:14:12 2003 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:48:03 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Favorite period Spanish recipes? To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Olwen asked: >>I'm rather fond of the Cazuela de Salmon. >> >>Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann > >Got a recipe for the salmon? Well, it's in Brighid's translation in the Florilegium. And i have my "redaction" on my website (which includes Brighid's translation). I cooked it for the Mists Bardic Mediterranean Tour feast i did last year... http://witch.drak.net/lilinah/MistsBardic02_2-C