roast-meats-msg - 1/16/08 Helpful directions and recipes for roasting meats. Pork Roast, Beef Roast. Medieval recipes. NOTE: See also the files: roast-pork-msg, larding-msg, broths-msg, sauces-msg, cheap-meats-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Wed, 3 May 95 20:37:26 EDT From: jtn at cse.uconn.edu (J. Terry Nutter) To: jtn at cse.uconn.edu, markh at sphinx Subject: Re: Cooking for 50 at Pennsic (was YKYITSCAW) Beef was normally boiled; on the few occasions when it was roasted, it was partially roasted and then simmered (in sauce usually). The "theory" reason was that beef was considered (in terms of the humors) to be a very dry meat, and roasting was the method that most dried; you wanted food to be moist and warm when eaten, which dictated boiling, and serving with a sauce (or in a pottage) that was relatively moist (not in the sense of very liquid, but again, as defined by the theory of the humors, which dictated what kind of fluids formed the base of the sauce). The reason that people bought this, (i.e. the reason that they didn't ignore the rules the theory gave) is that what they were eating was _ox_. Free range ox at that. You don't want to roast the stuff. Roast beef largely postdates the agricultural advances of the 18th C that resulted in developing (in England) a strain of beef cattle that provided meat incommensurably better than what had gone before. -- Angharad/Terry From: mfgunter at tddeng00.fnts.com (Michael F. Gunter) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:51:00 -0500 Subject: SC - Roast beef w/"barbecue sauce" Hi all, This weekend I went to the college library and finally found that recipe I teased y'all with. I'm sorry but I don't have the original recipe with me but I do have the redaction. I got this from _Fabulous Feasts_ so I'm not sure about how good the source documentation is. Anyway, the dish is good. A Roste Beef Roast with Crisps Ingredients: Batter: 4 or more T. oil or butter 1 c. flour for searing meat 5 lbs beef roast tied with 1 egg butcher's cord 1/2 c. flour 1/4 t. salt 1 t. dried sweet basil, crushed 1/2 t. baking powder 1 t. cinnamon 1/4 c. chopped parsley 1 t. salt 2/3 c. milk 1 t. dried sweet basil 1/2 t. dried rosemary 1/4 t. thyme 1 c. dates, pits removed, cut in half 1 c. dried figs, stems removed, cut in strips 1/2 c. dried apple rings, cut in halves 2 T. brown sugar or honey 1 1/2 c. beef stock Preheat oven to 350 degrees. In Dutch oven or cast-iron pot (either having tight covers) melt the butter. Dredge the roast with the mixture of flour, cinnamon, and salt, and thoroughly sear in the heated butter, browning all sides. Mix basil, rosemary, and thyme. Mix spices with combined dates, figs, and apples. Arrange spiced fruits around the meat. Sprinkle sugar or drizzle honey on fruits. Carefully pour on beef stock around edges of the pot so as to avoid "flooding" any food surfaces. Cover tightly. Bake at 350 degrees for 3 hours, or until tender. Remove from oven to cool for 30 minutes. Increase oven heat to 450 degrees. Prepare a very thick batter by vigourously stirring all ingredients, except parsley. Add extra flour if necessary. Add chopped parsley to the batter. Pour batter over roast allowing the excess to trickle into the gravy. Return the meat to hot oven for 5 to 10 minutes so that coating browns nicely. Cut the roast in its dough "jacket" (somewhat reminiscent of the modern "Beef Wellington") Serve the "crisps", which formed in the juices, along with the gravy and fruit. This really is very good tasting. Yers, Gunthar Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:28:43 -0500 From: maddie teller-kook <meadhbh at io.com> Subject: Re: SC - chicken on string (and beef) Donna Kenton wrote: > I still can't cook a decent roast beef, not even mundanely. It's > something we rarely had as a kid, so I can only cook a pot roast. Of > course, it's a wonderful pot roast, but beef by itself is something I > tend to shy away from -- it's such an expensive mistake. > > Any fool proof medieval recipes for a beef roast? I've got a great pork > roast recipe that I'll trade for it! > > Rosalinde OK, this is how I cooked the beef for the roman event. It is not from any recipe except for what I put together. The ingredients are all 'period'. I made a rub of herbs, salt, pepper and fresh garlic. I used top sirloin for the meat. I rubbed the meat with this mixture and slashed each roast about 10 times to push the garlic cloves into the meat. I then smoked it in my weber (too bad this is not a period item to cook in...sigh)..over a pan of red wine/fresh rosemary/fresh oregano and the coals I used are a hardwood charcoal. I cooked until the meat until medium rare (I use a meat thermometer to monitor). When the meat was done, I let it cool for 20 minutes, sliced it up, bagged it and froze it until the day of the event. OK, the day of the event, I used a product called 'Better then Bouillon'. It is a concentrated stock instead of powdered bouillon. EXCELLENT stuff! I reconstituted it to make a beef broth. Placed the meat in pans and let it heat up in the stock. I had people coming back for thirds and fourths. HRM Kein ate plenty! His server came over at least 3 times for more! Try this, I can guarantee it will make some excellent roast beef! meadhbh Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:44:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU> Subject: Re: SC - chicken on string (and beef) Let's start with the basics, and then we can move on to medieval. I use the technique I found in (da-da) Joy Of Cooking. I've not yet found anything that beats it. Rub a roast beef with minced garlic, pepper (NO SALT) and worcestershire sauce. Preheat your oven to 450 degrees. Put the roast in the oven, and immediately reduce the heat to 325, and bake for 12-14 minutes a pound for rare meat. Use your temperature probe, to check. (Lightly, lightly grease the pan with butter in advance, to make cleanup easier. Place a couple of cloves of garlic and some quartered onions in the pan too, and use the juice that runs off to make a gravy. If you want gravy, keep the glass pan as small as possible, and put the meat down so it is kind of like a can on a counter, narrow end touching the pan.) I may drizzle the meat with wine as it cooks, if it appears to be dry. Note for the advanced: if I use a glass pan for the beef, I turn the temperature down a tad further. Ovens heat up, and cool down in a cycle: but a pyrex or glass pans have such high heat indices that they keep the heat, and keep the temperature of the meat higher than an aluminum pan would. Remove the roast when done, let it stand on the counter for 10-20 minutes while you rescue the pan drippings for gravy, slice at the end of the time period, and serve. YUM. Gravy, for me, is taking the pan, deglazing with wine, using a non-period roux and serving. I've had a wonderful marinade, about 3 times, made of South Keype Jalapeno wine and garlic. Very nice. Soak the RB in the wine and minced garlic for about 2 hours at room temperature before cooking. Tibor Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:40:01 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - chicken on string (and beef) At the risk of seeing all my perfectly good pompous pontification about period cookery go to waste, I'd advise making sure you have an appropriate cut for roasting. Despite what the supermarket, with their generally odd sense of humor, says, this usually includes neither chuck nor bottom round. But wait! There's more! Make sure there is at least SOME fat on the outside. Health considerations notwithstanding, it usually provides for a tastier roast. If you are lucky enough to have a good butcher, you could ask him to bard the roast, which involves wrapping the roast in paper-thin slices of pork fat. It helps keep the meat moist, and can be removed after cooking. If you have an insane butcher, like I have (but also am) you can ask for it to be larded. This introduces the fat inside the meat, and means that a tough piece of meat can be cooked for a long time (till tender) without drying out. In general, though, I'd say the thing to do is to season the meat highly on the outside with salt and pepper, slivers of garlic, etc. Your call. Put in a pan on a rack or on a bed of chopped carrots, onions, and celery (1:2:1) Roast for 20 minutes at around 400 degrees F., then lower the heat to 350 or 375 degrees F., and roast for 18-20 minutes per pound of beef. 18 for rare, 20 and up for more well done. About 45 minutes or half an hour before your impeccable math says it will be done, check with a meat thermometer. Unless it is a really small piece of meat (like under 2 pounds), it will continue to cook after it is out of the oven. So, take it out when the thermometer reads 110-120 degress F. for rare (the temperature will go up to around 140, which is really the temperature for rare beef. 120-130 will carry over to about 145-150 for medium rare / medium. 140 or so will get you 155-160 for medium well. Anything above that will get you well done beef (gag!) Hope this helps! You can mess around with things like seasoned fresh bread crumbs or flour, usually applied sometime during the cooking process, but these aren't essential, and you should probably experiment with these when you are feeling confident. (Sorry, Aoife!!!) Adamantius Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:51:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU> Subject: Re: SC - chicken on string (and beef) > If you are lucky enough to have a good butcher, you could ask him to > bard the roast, which involves wrapping the roast in paper-thin slices > of pork fat. It helps keep the meat moist, and can be removed after > cooking. If you have an insane butcher, like I have (but also am) you > can ask for it to be larded. This introduces the fat inside the meat, > and means that a tough piece of meat can be cooked for a long time (till > tender) without drying out. Barding. oooohhhmmmm Larding. ooohhhmmmm (For bizarreness, try wrapping with fatty prosciuto. ooohhhhmmmm, or bacon. oooohhmmmm) God, I am drooling. This is gross. Larding is not that hard to do, if you have some slightly dull large sized stainless steel nails. DO NOT go to the hardware store and by Galvanized or Dipped nails. Poison is bad for you. If you are a purist, blunt the tip of the nail slightly. (If it is sharp, it will tear the fibers of the meat). Make a hole, put a tiny ball of lard at the opening, and push the lard down into the meat. Vary the location and depth. God. All I have here is some instant cous-cous. I think I'll die. Must Eat Now. Tibor (Crazed Vegetarian on the Loose) Date: 31 Jul 97 16:10:21 -0400 From: "SUZANNE_POWELL" <SUZANNE_POWELL at aspentec.com> Subject: SC - Roast Beef Recipe As I've said before, I'm an absolute novice at medieval cooking, but I wanted to share the following roast recipe with you. The accompaniment was homemade mashed potatoes (are they period?) and garlic seasoned green beans (same question). Because of my budget constraints, I had to use a "pot roast" cut of beef, but this should work well for the real thing, too. Burgundy Roast - -------------- First (the night before you cook your roast) mix together the following marinade (you may need to adjust amounts depending on the size of your roast, mine was about 6 pounds, and time according to the tenderness of your beef): 1/4 c. burgundy wine 2 tbsp. virgin olive oil 1/4 c. minced onion 1 tbsp. minced garlic 1 tbsp. minced carrots 1 tbsp. dried rosemary, crumbled Pierce your roast all over using a fork, then place in one of those nifty oven roasting bags and pour your marinade over the top. Seal the bag and place in the refrigerator. The bag should be turned several times so that the marinade has a chance to reach all surfaces of your beef. I served the finished roast with a garnish of grilled portobello mushrooms. If you want to do the same, make another batch of the marinade to use on the mushrooms, place the mushrooms in a glass dish, pour the marinade over the mushrooms and place in the refrigerator at the same time you put in the roast. When you turn the roast/bag over, turn the mushrooms over too. The next evening, while your roast is cooking (about 1/2 an hour before you plan on taking it out of the oven), slice 2 or 3 onions thinly and cook them slowly over the stove using virgin olive oil until they are caramelized. By the time the onions are done, it should be time to take the roast out of the oven. Take the roast out to rest and turn on the broiler. Put in your portobello mushrooms (reserve the marinade) and grill for about 5 minutes on each side. Use the reserved drippings from your roast and your leftover mushroom marinade for the gravy. I started out with a basic roux (not period, I've just found out), added beef bouillon to the roux and cooked for a few minutes, then added the drippings and reserved marinade. Rounded out the sauce by adding about 1/2 to 1 cup of burgundy wine. This turned out really well -- even using the cheap cut of meat. Your thoughts? - -- Suzanne **************************************** ** Lady Suzanne de la Ferte, AoA ** ** Scribe and Illuminator ** ** Stargate, Ansteorra ** ** suzanne.powell at aspentech.com ** **************************************** Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:25:11 -0500 From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter) Subject: Re: SC - chicken on string (and beef) Hi, Katerine here. Rosalinde asks for medieval recipes for beef roast. The following are two recipes the use roast beef that I am particularly fond of. In both cases, you want to be very sure that you use a good grade of roast. (Making them for myself, I use a standing rib or ribeye.) Auter brawn en peuerade (Two Fifteenth Century, H279 Potage Dyvers xxxii) This is roast beef served with a peverade sauce (i.e. a sauce which includes and tastes of pepper), in which the beef is simmered to finish cooking. The meat is served cut up in small pieces in the sauce. The "auter" in the name means "other"; this recipe is the second of two in a row for meat in peverade sauce (and to my mind, by far the better). Recipe: Take myghty brothe of Beef or of Capoun, and thenne take clene Freysshe Brawn, and sethe it, but not y-now; An ghif if be Freysshe Brawn, roste it, but not I-now, and then leche it in pecys, and caste it to the brothe. An thanne take hoole Oynonys, & pylle hem, an thanne take Vynegre ther-to, and Canelle, and sette it on the fyre, an drawe yt thorw a straynoure, and caste ther-to; then take Clowys, Maces, and powder Pepyr, and caste ther-to, and a lytil Saynderys, an sette it on the fyre, an let boyle tylle the Oynonys an the Brawn ben euyne sothyn, an nowt to moche; than take lykoure y-mad of Bred an Vinegre an Wyne, an sesyn it vp, an caste ther-to Saffroun to make the coloure bryth, an Salt, an serue it forth. In more modern English: Take a strong beef or chicken broth, and then take clean fresh meat, and boil it, but not completely. And if it be fresh meat [i.e. not salted], roast it, but not completely, and then slice it in pieces, and put it in the broth. And then take whole onions, and peel them [and put them in the pot], and then add in vinegar, and cinnamon, and set it on the fire, and draw it through a strainer, and put it in. Then take cloves, mace, and ground pepper, and add them, and a little saunders, and put it on the fire, and let boil til the onions and the meat are fully boiled, and not too much. Then take liquid made of bread and vinegar and wine, and season it up, and add saffron to make the color bright, and salt, and serve it forth. Amounts as I make it: 2 lb standing rib roast, less bones 1 tsp pepper 1 can beef broth + 1/2 can water 1/4 tsp saunders 3 med. large onions, quartered 6 slices bread 1 T vinegar 1 T vinegar 1 tsp cinnamon 1/4 cup red wine 1/4 tsp cloves 2 lg pinches saffron 1/4 tsp mace Step-by-step: 1. Preheat oven to 550. 2. Put in roast and turn down immediately to 350. 3. Roast 15 minutes to the pound. 4. Cut into bite-sized slices. (Try not to make it look like chunks, to make it clearer to modern eyes that this is really a roast with sauce, not a stew.) 5. Put in a pot with ingredients through saunders, and simmer until meat is cooked and tender (how long this takes will depend on how much you make; for this amount, about 10 minutes is usually enough.) 6. Trim crusts off bread. 7. Put bread into blender with wine, vinegar, and broth from the pot. Blend until smooth, then stir mixture back into the pot. 8. Taste; add salt if needed, and any other spices you think it needs (if you can't taste the pepper, add more now). 9. Grind saffron (or break into little crumbs in the palm of your hand), and stir in. When the saffron is fully mixed in, it is ready to serve. Notes: As often happens with medieval recipes, the order of operations gets a little confused in places. What you are doing is this. First, partially cook your meat; if it is fresh, you may roast it; for salt meat, boil it. Next, cut it into bite-sized pieces. (Medievals never delivered meat in larger than bite-sized pieces to diners; it was cut up, either in the kitchen or at table by a carver, to simplify eating.) Then put the meat and some peeled onions (the recipe says whole ones; I either use pearl onions or quarter regular ones) into a pot of strong broth. Season. (The straining part is to avoid lumps of cinnamon, which would be freshly ground in a medieval kitchen.) Boil until the meat and onions are fully cooked, but not longer, or you will kill the spices. Then thicken, correct seasoning, color, and serve. The list of ingredients above calls for a very fine cut of beef, which you may not be able to afford. Be sure to try out your recipe on a small scale with any changes, including in cut. Different cuts may need very different treatment; some inexpensive cuts may do far better initially boiled than roasted. To retail a browner look, sear the meat in a pan before boiling. This is wonderful! I suspect it might be even better the second day, but there has never been any left over. It looks undistinguished to a modern eye, though. You might try leaving the outer slices out until you are ready to serve, and then arranging them artistically to make the point that it's roast, not stew. Rappe (Taillevent 27, 76/283) This is a roast and fried beef in gravy with grapes. In this, material in brackets is from alternative MS traditions; the translation is Scully's; notes in curly braces are mine. I have put the English first, with the French original after for comparison. Receipt: [Sear your meat on the spit, then] fry your meat in bacon grease { note: literally lard }; steep bread in beef broth, strain and throw it over your meat; grind ginger, infuse it in verjuice and wine, and put it over your meat; then get currants or verjuice grapes [boiled in water] and set the meat in this [var: use these as a garnish when the meat is served in bowls]. [Mecter vostre grain halez en broches, puis] Mettez vostre grain souffrire en sain de lart; puis prenez du pain et mettez tremper en boullon de beuf et passez parmy l'estamine et gectez sur vostre grain; puis affinez gingembre, deffaictes de verjus et de vin, et mettez sur vostre grain; puis prennez de groiselles ou de verjus en grain et mettez dedans. Amounts as I make it: 1 1/2 lb ribeye roast 4 T white grape juice + 1 T lard or shortening 1/2 tsp lemon juice 3 slices bread 1 T white wine 1 cup beef broth (undiluted) 3 T currants 1 tsp ginger 1 1/2 cup grapes Step-by-step: 1. Preheat oven to 550. 2. Put in roast and turn down immediately to 350. 3. Roast 15 minutes to the pound. 4. Cut into strips and fry in lard or shortening. 5. When cooked, lower temperature and add other ingredients. 6. Soak bread in broth. 7. Take bread out and squeeze through strainer into meat. (Discard what won't go through the strainer.) Alternatively, run it through the blender until smooth. 8. Mix grape juice, lemon juice, wine, and ginger until ginger dissolves. 9. Add fluid and ginger mix to meat. 10. Cut grapes in half. 11. Add currants and grapes to meat. 12. Increase heat and simmer until sauce thickens. Notes: "Rappe", or "rapey" in English cuisine, seems originally to have referred dishes with fresh grapes as an ingredient or garnish; sometimes, we see raisins instead. This rappe is roast beef with a gravy garnished with currants and verjuice (sour) grapes. Verjuice grapes being no longer readily available, I have substituted table grapes. Verjuice, which the recipe calls for, was sour fruit juice, usually (but not invariably) from verjuice grapes. Sometimes you can find it in oriental food stores, or so friends tell me. I have not been able to, and so usually use white grape juice, with some lemon juice added for tartness. This is another dish that's so good, I've never had a chance to find out how it is on the second day. Cheers, - -- Katerine/Terry Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:36:34 -0500 From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter) Subject: Re: SC - chicken on string (and beef) Hi, Katerine here. Lark Miller writes: >The key to cooking good roast beef is slow cooking and keeping it well >covered so the juices don't boil out but stay inside to baste the roast. >My Dad makes roast that melts in your mouth. Actually, I don't think there's a single key to cooking good roast beef. My personal impression is that the best method depends on the cut of the beef. I adore the very expensive cuts oven roasted. For lesser cuts, I'm fonder of various pot roasting techniques. The more expensive the cut, the less important slow cooking is. The reason a number of recipes start with preheating the oven very hot is to sear the outside, which seals in the juices and provides a bit of a crusty exterior. Not nearly what you get with expert spit roasting, but probably as close as you can come in an oven. I tend to like to sear the meat in a pan, regardless whether I pot or oven roast, if I have a cut that won't stand up to searing to 550 and then cooking in a falling oven that settles to 350. The searing not only seals in the juices, but gives a better appearance and provides a tasty exterior. But there's nothing like a top quality roast... no matter how you cook it. Cheers, - -- Katerine/Terry Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 17:21:03 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: Re- SC - chicken on string Mark Harris wrote: > Last Thursday, July 31, Tibor described how to cook a modern roast: > > This sounds wonderful, but I don't understand some of his description. > > >Remove the roast when done, let it stand on the counter for 10-20 minutes > >while you rescue the pan drippings for gravy, slice at the end of the time > >period, and serve. YUM. Gravy, for me, is taking the pan, deglazing with > >wine, using a non-period roux and serving. > > Pray tell, what does this last sentence mean? What is deglazing? What is > a roux? This is some of that Evil French Culinary Technology at work. When you cook just about anything by sauteeing, roasting, or boiling, there are likely to be juices in the pan which cook down to a thick, slightly sticky glaze or crust at some parts of the pan. Deglazing is the dissolving and removal of this (usually flavorful) stuff from the bottom of the pan. Classically, this is usually done with water, stock, wine, or some combination thereof, but every so often you find fairly odd things like milk, coffee, or even Coca Cola being used. This deglazed pan juice can then be cooked down to a uniformly thick, syrupy sauce, or it can be thickened with roux. Roux comes in various colors and flavors, but the most common forms are white, blonde, and brown (in some extreme cases, red) roux. The most basic roux is made from some kind of fat like butter or oil, heated, to which flour is added to make a smooth paste. You then cook this paste to the desired color (which also affects the taste of it), and whisk it into a liquid to thicken it. It not only thickens this liquid as it approaches a simmer or a boil, but if you have something like milk which is liable to curdle, it can help stabilize it and keep it smooth. Roux seems to have entered the European culinary repertoire sometime in the 17th century. One of the things I find especially interesting is the fact that various sauces and pottages in medieval European cuisines seem almost always to be thickened with breadcrumbs, although several recipes do call for other thickeners like rice flour and wheat starch. It's ironic because today, when people can't be bothered making a roux, they usually make a slurry of cornstarch mixed with a little water. Full circle, and all that. Adamantius Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:24:21 -0400 (EDT) From: rebecca tants <becca at servtech.com> Subject: Re: Re- SC - chicken on string > >Remove the roast when done, let it stand on the counter for 10-20 minutes > >while you rescue the pan drippings for gravy, slice at the end of the time > >period, and serve. YUM. Gravy, for me, is taking the pan, deglazing with > >wine, using a non-period roux and serving. > > Pray tell, what does this last sentence mean? What is deglazing? What is > a roux? Deglazing the pan is the act of pouring some liquid (wine usually or stock) into the hot pan over a burner and using it to pull up the juices and drippings from the pan. Often this means a little scraping, but if it's nice and hot this will also let much of the browned on bits melt back into the liquid. You do this to get the taste of the juices into your gravy. If the meat was fatty, pour off the fat first. Roux's are a bit more complicated, mostly because what mom does is very different from what the classical french who gave it a name do. I'm guessing that the above was refering to the mom form, but here's both..... A mom Roux (prounounced Roo, same as my name) is a mixture of a thickening agent (flour, cornstarch, arrowroot) and some liquid. It's combined until smooth. you then add some of the hot liquid from the pan to make sure it stays smooth before pouring it in and letting it thicken your sauce with a bit more stirring and cooking. This is mom cooking theory. NOW, I have been told that while this is the roux I was taught, the PROPER way involves a fat (butter usually) and the flour or starch - you melt the butter in the pan, stir in the flour and cook briefly - how long depends on what you are making - a light roux for white sauces (cheese sauces and such) or a darker one for darker sauces. This is classical french cooking theory. My understanding of the cooking of the starch here is to get the starch taste out of it - have you ever had floury gravy? this process is supposed to get rid of that taste. You also do similar things in soups at times - my favorite french onion soup recipe calls for sauteeing the onions in a mix of butter and olive oil almost forever, and then adding some flour to the mix and cooking it for a couple moments - this will bind the soup, thicken it a bit and the cooking before adding the broth is supposed to take the floury taste out. My mom always used the first method - some flour and water in a tupperware tub, shake until smooth, add to gravy. I've found that adding some of the hot liquid in first keeps it from lumping up. I primarily use the latter method when I'm making cheese sauces and other kinds of more formal sauces. Julia Child's "The Way to Cook" gives examples of why you might want to use either kind of Roux, but in the end it's preference and ease of cooking. Since after I deglaze the pan I always transfer the liquid to a real frying pan anyway, either would work. Ruadh (yes, that's prounounced Roo, no matter how much "Rude" sounds correct :-) -=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=- Becca Tants, aka Roo, Lady Caitlen Ruadh, Delftwood, AEthelmearc, East becca at servtech.com http://www.servtech.com/public/becca -=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=- Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:31:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU> Subject: Re: Re- SC - chicken on string >I've had a wonderful marinade, about 3 times, made of South Keype Jalapeno >wine and garlic. Very nice. Soak the RB in the wine and minced garlic for >about 2 hours at room temperature before cooking. This sounds wonderful, too. This is a wine that has jalapeno juice in it? I think you are saying to marinate the roast in the wine and minced garlic, then pour off the juice and roast as above. Or do you not pour off the excess? They made a "Jalapeno wine". Chop and seed about a pound of jalapeno, cover with a gallon of water, and add corn sugar and yeast. Every few days, add another cup of corn sugar. When it stops fermenting, it is done. But very sharp. Let it age about 6 weeks to 6 months. The result is a very intensely jalapeno flavored wine. Marinate the meat in the roast and minced garlic, and then remove from the marinade and roast as above. Tibor Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:03:05 -0700 From: kat <kat at kagan.com> Subject: SC - re: cheap meats/marinating "Melissa Martines" <melissa.martines at mail.corpfamily.com> writes: > What cut of meat should I try to buy that would be relatively cheap, > but not tough? and filip o'the marche gives several suggestions, including: > marinade the meat most marinades will tenderize the meat. vinegar, onion juice, and other components all help break it down. My secret: Cheap wine. Really cheap wine. Very acidic (acid tenderizes the meat) and, coincidentally, inexpensive too... My favorite "roast" wine is Carlo Rossi burgundy ($3.99 to the half-gallon). If you marinate meat in it overnight it will be a bilious ugly purplish color; but it will taste GLORIOUS.... My favorite cut of meat (esp. when I'm doing a roast): Cross-rib. Very nice (when cooked right) and surprisingly inexpensive. Your butcher should cut it for you in whatever incarnation you wish. I usually just make the whole roast btw, another friend of mine SWEARS by blackberry Manischewitz as a roasting wine. She also recommends fruit, as brid hecgwiht suggests. Just my US$.02 - kat Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:35:00 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Help me Please! <snip> O.K. Thanks for the citation Gunthar! - Here it is paraphrased from Fabulous Feasts, by M.P. Cosman, p. 165: A Roste (Beef Roast with Crisps) 4 or more Tablespoons oil or butter 5 lbs. beef roast, tied with butcher's cord 1/2 c. flour 1 tsp cinnamon 1 tsp salt 1 tsp dried sweet basil, crushed 1/2 tsp dried rosemary, crushed 1/4 tsp thyme 1 c. pitted dates, halved 1 c. dried figs, stems removed, sliced 1/2 c. dried apple rings, halved 2 Tablespoons brown sugar or honey 1 1/2 c. beef stock Batter: 1 c. flour 1 egg 2/3 c. milk 1/4 tsp salt 1/2 scant tsp baking powder 1/4 c. chopped fresh parsley, crushed preheat oven to 350 degrees. Dredge roast in mixture of flour, cinnamon & salt & sear in oil in dutch oven. Mix herbs & dried fruits & arrange around the roast. Add sugar or honey, and beef stock. Cover tightly & bake at 350 degrees for 3 hours, or until tender. Remove from oven & let sit 30 min. Meanwhile combine batter ingredients & pour over roast. Bake at 450 degrees for 5 to 10 min. or until crust is browned. BTW, this title has been re-printed. I love the illustrations! Cindy/Sincgiefu renfrow at skylands.net Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:25:44 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - help oop Peter93835 at aol.com wrote: > I have a boneless botom blade beef roast of 1.5 pounds, how do I cook it . > It need not to be period or anaything, it just need to be cooked . I have an > oven and the needed pots, some buter, salt and pepper, litle garlic and > runing water. All I need is a simple recipe. Bottom blade is, I believe, part of the shoulder structure or chuck. You might be better off braising this. General instructions for braising (or pot-roasting) would be to brown the meat (either whole or in chunks as for stew) in a wide pan, in some butter. Take your time, as you don't want the butter to burn, but you want the meat to get good and brown on the outside. Transfer the meat to a pot just big enough to hold it comfortably. Bigger pot equals more liquid, which means more gravy but tasteless meat. Deglaze your browning pan with a little boiling water (in other words, pour some liquid into the pan, over the heat, and gently scrape off the brown gunk that is probably stuck there). This will flavor your cooking liquid, and also make it easier to wash the pan. Pour this brown water over the meat in the other pot and top off the pot with enough liquid to just cover the meat. Flavorful liquids are best for this, like stock, wine or beer, or tomato juice, or some combination, but water will certainly do in a pinch. Add any flavorings you want to, and have, to the cooking liquid, except for salt, which you should add at the end, when you know how much liquid you've got. Bring to a boil quickly over high heat, then lower the heat so the liquid is simmering gently, and let it go, partially covered, for about ninety minutes, or until tender. You may or may not want to stir in a pat of butter into your gravy before serving. This will enrich it and thicken it ever so slightly. Adamantius Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:59:25 -0500 (EST) From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - help oop << Add any flavorings you want to, and have, to the cooking liquid, except for salt, which you should add at the end, when you know how much liquid you've got. Bring to a boil quickly over high heat, then lower the heat so the liquid is simmering gently, and let it go, partially covered, for about ninety minutes, or until tender. You may or may not want to stir in a pat of butter into your gravy before serving. This will enrich it and thicken it ever so slightly. Adamantius >> If I could be so bold..........the addition of a carrot quartered, an onion studded with 2 whole cloves, 1 small bay leaf and a stalk of celery cut into large chunks would greatly improve the finished product. Simply remove the vegies and either discard or serve as a garnish at the end of the cooking process but before the gravy making. :-) Ras Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:57:24 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - help oop LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > If I could be so bold..........the addition of a carrot quartered, an onion > studded with 2 whole cloves, 1 small bay leaf and a stalk of celery cut into > large chunks would greatly improve the finished product. Simply remove the > vegies and either discard or serve as a garnish at the end of the cooking > process but before the gravy making. :-) Of course. I omitted those ingedients only because the gentleman listed what was available to him, and those items weren't among them. For preference a whole head of garlic, unpeeled, a bit of tomato, some red wine, and some dried porcinis would be the way to go, in my view. You push the head of garlic through a food mill at the end of the cooking process, and the puree thickens the sauce. But certainly, aromatic vegetables are always a good idea when braising meats, and no one seems to have really improved on the basic mirepoix veg combo, for flavor. Adamantius Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:15:43 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Roast Meats & Dry spice rubs >I am looking for information on whether roast meat would have been rubbed >with a dry mix of herbs & spices before roasting to enhance the flavor as >we do today. Has anyone seen any recipes that mention rubbing meat with a >mix of herbs and spices prior to roasting? > >Clarissa Yes. Off the top of my head, I remember there's one in Sabina Welserin's CB, and another in Epulario for a variation on the same dish. Types of 'beef olives' rubbed with herb/spice mixtures. Cindy/Sincgiefu Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:26:25 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Roast beef > I am curious if anyone has a source for period roast beef recipes. This item > has been mentioned numerous times on the list and so far as I know there are > no medieval recipes for roasted beef. All the recipes I am aware of using beef > as an ingredient are boiled dishes. Any help in this area would be most > appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > Ras I've a transcript of Ein Alemannisches Buchlien von guter Speise which has a number of recipes for Braten, nominally roast beef, but with a possible interpretation of roasts in general. I haven't translated any of the recipes yet, so I can't give you any details. IIRC, the book is mid-15th Century, about a century later than Ein Buch von Guter Speise. I haven't found a translation, so I'll probably get to display the mediocrity of my language skills in translating it. Bear Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:38:10 EDT From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Roast beef << I am curious if anyone has a source for period roast beef recipes. This item has been mentioned numerous times on the list and so far as I know there are no medieval recipes for roasted beef. All the recipes I am aware of using beef as an ingredient are boiled dishes >> Check "a Drye Stewe of Beef" in Pleyn Delit. I can't look up the original right now, as my lord unpacked that box and I don't know what he did with that book... Basically, you put the meat in a pot, but raised on splints; pour a small amount of red wine over it (nowhere near enough to cover it), sprinkle with whole spices (mace, cloves, peppercorns) and roast. I suppose it could be redacted to boiling it in wine, but would it them be called a "drye" stewe? I'm working off memory of Hieatt and Butler's redaction. And certainly we know that spit-roasting was a common cooking technique, and are there not recipes for sauces to go over roasted meats? As well as those using leftover cooked meats, which might well be roasted? Brangwayna Morgan Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:26:36 -0400 From: "LHG, JRG" <liontamr at ptd.net> Subject: SC - Roast Beef >I've a transcript of Ein Alemannisches Buchlien von guter Speise which has a >number of recipes for Braten, nominally roast beef, but with a possible >interpretation of roasts in general. I haven't translated any of the >recipes yet, so I can't give you any details. >IIRC, the book is mid-15th Century, about a century later than Ein Buch von >Guter Speise. >Bear upon reading this I was immediately stuck with the similar words (ger) "braten" and (english/ang-sax) brawn or braun. They would be pronounced approximately the same way. Broke Brawn is (in England) sliced roasts. Brawn is either meat in aspic or roasted meat, depending upon your century of orientation. Aoife Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:21:32 -0500 From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) Subject: SC - Re: crisp crust meat I don't eat in the food court, except for desserts, because of food allergies, but this evening I read some of Dorothy Hartly's book on the history of British food. She says to dredge a cooked roast with flour, then trickle a liquid--water, wine, something appropriate--over it and let it continue to cook until it is 'clear'. I think she means that the flour should be sort of transparent. Then you brown it well without letting it burn, and it makes a good crust. This is 'open air' roasting, not in a closed pot or oven. Her drawings showed me meat on a spit getting heat from the side of the fire rather than just over the fire; this is how you can have a dripping pan under the roast. At probably a later date than ours, tin reflectors were set up: fire meat tin screen and would reflect the heat back onto the meat. She also made the point that the liquid should be relevant to the type of meat: lamb feeds on mint in the meadow, so mint water; venison got the red wine; beef got broth but was served with milk and dairy sides and sauces: Yorkshire pudding, etc. Allison Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:07:35 EDT From: PhlipinA at aol.com Subject: SC - On roast beef and fried chicken- long Was just going through my copy of Platina, "De Honesta Voluptate et Valetudine", the Milham translation, 1998, and found the following instructions. The first is from the 6th book, Chapter 4, entitled "Assum", or "Roast": "Make a roast from whatever meat you want this way: if it is old (1), when it has boiled a while, take it out of the pot and lard it, and have it turned over the fire until it is well cooked, but if it is tender, like veal and kid, cook it without boiling, the same way as above. Wash in boiling water capons, pheasants, kid, partridges and whatever wild meat requires roasting, well plucked and dressed. After they are rinsed and garnished to stimulate appetite with fragrant herbs, pepper, and finely chopped lard, have them cooked on a hearth on a slow fire, but when you see that they are nearly cooked, sprinkle salt with breadcrumbs all over them, after the fire has been increased more than before and the spit turned with a faster turning hand. Then take the meat off at once, let the steam go away, and serve to your guests." (1) At this juncture, I'm reminded of Adamantius telling me that the Romans felt beef was vulgar, and would not be eaten by the upper classes- they'd eat veal in preference. In this case, the phrase " Si annicula erit" means, I think, meat from a mature animal. Ras, although this does not specifically say roast beef, it is a generic recipe for roasting any animal, and I feel that beef is one of the animals included. I suspect many of the recipes we have are intended to be generic. Your thoughts, Ras, Adamantius, Cariadoc, anyone? <snip of fried chicken recipe> Phlip Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 10:12:24 EST From: Seton1355 at aol.com Subject: SC - from the Plymouth Plantation web site Since this is from 1615 I'm assuming it's not too late for us. Perhaps someone will be interested. Phillipa G. Markham on Roast Meats - 1615 59 Of roast meats. Observations in roast meats. To proceed then to roast meats, it is to be understood that in the general knowledge thereof are to be observed these few rules. First, the cleanly keeping and scouring of the spits and cob-irons; next, the neat picking and washing of meat before it is spitted, 60 Spitting of roast meats. Then the spitting and broaching of meat, which must be done so strongly and firmly that the meat may by no means either shrink from the spit, or else turn about the spit; and yet ever to observe that the spit do not go through any principle part of the meat, but such as is of least account and estimation: and if it be birds or fowl which you spit, then to let the spit go through the hollow of the body of the fowl, and so fasten it with picks or skewers under the wings, about the thighs of the fowl, and at the feet or rump, according to your manner of trussing and dressing them. 61 Temperature of fire. Then to know the temperatures of the fires for every meat, and which must have a slow fire, yet a good one, taking leisure in roasting, as chines of beef, swans, turkeys, peacocks, bustards, and generally any great large fowl, or any other joints of mutton, veal, pork, kid, lamb, or such like, whether it be venison, red or fallow, which indeed would lie long at the fire, and soak well in the roasting; and which would have a quick and sharp fire without scorching, as pigs, pullets, pheasants, partridge, quail, and all sorts of middle sized or lesser fowl, and all small birds or compound roast meats, as olives of veal, haslets, a pound of butter roasted, or puddings simple of themselves; and many other such like, which indeed would be suddenly and quickly dispatched, because it is intended in cookery that one of thse dishes must be ready whilst the other is in eating. [Butter was probably not available to the Pilgrims at this time. Much of the original supply was sold previous to the Mayflower's departure, and the remaining stores presumably used earlier. They had no cattle, but they may well have had milch goats for milk. KC] 62 The complexions of meat. Then to know the complexions of meat, as which must be pale and white roasted (yet thoroughly roasted), as mutton, veal, lamb, kid, capon, pullet, partridge, quail, and all sorts of middle and small land or water fowl, and all small birds; and which must be brown roasted, as beef, venison, pork, swan, geese, pigs, crane, bustards, and any large fowl, or other thing whose flesh is black. 63 The best bastings for meats. Then to know the best bastings for meat, which is sweet butter, sweet oil, barrelled butter, or fine rendered up seam, with cinnamon, cloves and mace. There be some that will baste only with water, and salt, and with nothing else; yet it is but opinion, and that must be the world's master always. [As goose and duck have enough fat, they would have been basted in their own gravy, with or without the spices.] 65 To know when meat is enough. Lastly to know when meat is roasted enough; for as too much rareness is unwholesome, so too much dryness is not nourishing. Therefore to know when it is the perfect height, and is neither too moist nor too dry, you shall observe these signs first in your large joints of meat; when the steam or smoke of the meat ascendeth, either upright or else goeth from the fire, when it beginneth a little to shrink from the spit, or when the gravy which drppeth from it is clear without bloodiness, then is the meat enough . . .or if it be any kind of fowl you roast, when the thighs are tender, or the hinder parts of the pinions, at the setting on of the wings, are without blood, then be sure that your meat is fully enough roasted: yet for a better and more certain assuredness, you may thrust your knife into the thickest parts of the meat, and draw it out again, and if it bring out white gravy without any bloodiness, then assuredly it is enough, and may be drawn with all speed convenient. . . 76 Ordering of meats to be roasted. . . .for in all joints of meat except a shoulder of mutton, you shall crush and break the bones well; from pigs and rabbits you shall cut off the feet before you spit them, . . .capons, pheasants, chickens, and turkeys you shall roast with the pinions folded up, and the legs cut off by the knees, and thrust into the bodies. . . Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:03:51 -0500 From: Christine A Seelye-King <mermayde at juno.com> Subject: Re: SC - corned beef Dry-cured, brined beef (rubbed with and packed in salt, possibly some spices and some sugar, and stored in a barrel or something where the meat juices will run out and create a pickling brine) is probably period, >Adamantius <snip> We have a dish here that we have served for years, and it originally came from a Knight in Trimaris, (Sir Ragnar? we're talking about 20 some-odd years ago now). It is called Roman Roast. It is basically this: Take an inexpensive cut of meat, chuck roast works well, and have it cut into 3-5 pound portions. Using heavy duty aluminum foil, season the roast with pepper and A LOT of salt. We usually dust the pepper on, and use about 1/4 - 1/2 cup of salt per roast. Seal the foil, and bake until done through and falling apart, usually about 3 hours or so. Take them out of the oven, and let them sit for a few minutes. Open the foil, and pour 3/4 - 1 cup of honey over the roast. Close the foil back up and let them sit for 15 minutes or so (longer is fine). When ready to serve, remove the roasts, shred, and pour the juices over the meat. Leftovers will not be an issue. This is really tasty, and one of the most popular meat dishes around here. I wonder if it has any sort of documentable history? It came down to us with the story that this would have been cooked by legions on the move, using salted meat and stew pots. Anybody have any idea? Christianna Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:46:49 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - corned beef Christine A Seelye-King wrote: > We have a dish here that we have served for years, and it > originally came from a Knight in Trimaris, (Sir Ragnar? we're talking > about 20 some-odd years ago now). It is called Roman Roast. > > This is really tasty, and one of the most popular meat dishes > around here. I wonder if it has any sort of documetable history? It > came down to us with the story that this would have been cooked by > legions on the move, using salted meat and stew pots. Anybody have any > idea? > Christianna I'm not aware of anything in Apicius or other Roman sources that comes very close to this, but I'm always up for examining new stuff. Based on my own experience, and Your Mileage May Vary, it sounds vaguely as if it is equally inspired by Cantonese Salt-Baked Chicken, some type of Texas barbecue (being beef and the sauce too thick and syrupy for Southern), and Apician ham baked in flour-and-oil pastry. On the other hand, it sounds good, too. Adamantius stgardr, East Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:19:10 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: Salted Beef roast (was Re: SC - corned beef) Nick Sasso wrote: > You will find good Apicius brought us this dish in its > original form. There are conjectures as to whether > it should be sliced or pulled (as in s outhern BBQ), though not to > the height of the Cusk*******les > debate. > > It is entered in my Giacossa translation as 'roasted meat'. I guess this is a matter of interpretation. I understood this roast, as eaten in the SCA, is essentially covered with a salt crust. Apicius says: "Assaturum simplicem: assam a furno salis plurimo conspersam cume mele inferes." I'd translate this more or less as Flower & Rosenbaum do, to read (more or less): "Plain roast: roast in the oven with plenty of salt sprinkled on, serve with honey." I guess this is not an impossible interpretation...as I said, I guess it all depends on how you look at it. I wouldn't have seen this in the same way, or frankly even have recognized it as the same dish, but what the hey... . Adamantius Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:44:27 -0600 From: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net> Subject: SC - My try at Roman Roast Christianna posted a message and recipe on Roman Roast last Wednesday, January 27. > We have a dish here that we have served for years, and it > originally came from a Knight in Trimaris, (Sir Ragnar? we're talking > about 20 some-odd years ago now). It is called Roman Roast. It is > basically this: > Take an inexpensive cut of meat, chuck roast works well, and have > it cut into 3-5 pound portions. Using heavy duty aluminum foil, season > the roast with pepper and A LOT of salt. We usually dust the pepper on, > and use about 1/4 - 1/2 cup of salt per roast. Seal the foil, and bake > until done through and falling apart, usually about 3 hours or so. Take > them out of the oven, and let them sit for a few minutes. Open the foil, > and pour 3/4 - 1 cup of honey over the roast. Close the foil back up and > let them sit for 15 minutes or so (longer is fine). When ready to serve, > remove the roasts, shred, and pour the juices over the meat. Leftovers > will not be an issue. I decided to try this for dinner today. I used a little over 3 pounds of chuck roast but mostly measured the other ingredients by eye. I cooked it at 350 degrees for about three hours. I used a double layer of medium wieght foil, as that was what I had and placed it on a baking pan. Good thing I did as the juices/salt leaked out. Next time I'm going to use a thicker foil. I also liberally pierced the roast with a knife while I was salting it and worked the salt into the meat. I may have pierce the foil, which is why some of the juice leaked through the foil. I also liberally sprinkled worcheshire sauce over the roast. No, I don't consider worcheshire sauce a good replacement for garum and garum wasn't mentioned anyway. It wasn't for a feast. I just thought it would taste good. The resulting sauce is quite good, although very rich with all the salt and honey. A little goes a long way. My wife and I both loved it. I served it with garlic bread and mashed potatoes. > This is really tasty, and one of the most popular meat dishes > around here. I wonder if it has any sort of documentable history? It > came down to us with the story that this would have been cooked by > legions on the move, using salted meat and stew pots. Anybody have any > idea? I doubt it is in anyway period as cooked but it is delicous. I would suspect that meat would be cut into thin strips before salting rather than salting a whole roast, although maybe a roast could be put into brine? I don't think a roman legion on the move would have baked it. - -- Lord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:46:40 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - My try at Roman Roast > Christianna posted a message and recipe on Roman Roast last Wednesday, > > I decided to try this for dinner today. I used a little over 3 pounds of > chuck roast but mostly measured the other ingredients by eye. I cooked > it at 350 degrees for about three hours. > > I doubt it is in anyway period as cooked but it is delicous. I would > suspect that meat would be cut into thin strips before salting rather > than salting a whole roast, although maybe a roast could be put into > brine? I don't think a roman legion on the move would have baked it. > -- > Lord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Roasted Meat (Apicius 268) Assaturam: Assam a furno simplicem salis plurimo conspersam cum melle inferes. Roasted meat: The meat is roasted plain in the oven, sprinkled generously with salt. Serve with honey. This is civilian fare. The diet of the legions was primarily bread, cooked grain, pulses, vegetables as available and watered wine or vinegar. Meat was rarely eaten and was probably purchased outside the regular ration or looted from an enemy. Bear Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:49:18 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - idle thoughts are tools of the cook... "Laura C. Minnick" wrote: > A question for those of you who are not off warring with each other... > I was thinking of making a roast in the very near future, something > that could be served sliced cold, maybe with sauce. I had thought > immediately of Cormarye from _Curye of Inglysch_, but that's a pork > roast, and I'd prefer not to use pork this time. Does anyone have an > idea for something like Cormarye, but beef? Or would the same recipe > work with beef? I don't recall ever making a major substitution like > that before. Any ideas? Ideas for a specifically marinated roast, that is medieval, other than cormarye, in my experience, no, or at least not offhand. I think there are some late-period or just-post-period recipes for various soused meats, cooked and then pickled in wine, vinegar, salt, etc. I'll see if I can find some of them later. If you want to go the strictly medieval route, I might suggest a well-seasoned roast (i.e. assertively salted, etc.) with one of the several pevorade sauces. If pepper is not your thing (although it has a special affinity for beef) you might make a cameline sauce. According to Taillevent, the default setting seems to be that most roasts are eaten either with a verjuice dip or with cameline, but he doesn't include beef among the references to roasts. Adamantius Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 00:42:42 EDT From: Korrin S DaArdain <korrin.daardain at juno.com> Subject: Re: SC - idle thoughts are tools of the cook...(Recipes) On Mon, 16 Aug 1999 00:44:04 -0700 "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org> writes: >I was thinking of making a roast in the very near future, something >that could be served sliced cold, maybe with sauce. I had thought >immediately of Cormarye from _Curye of Inglysch_, but that's a pork >roast, and I'd prefer not to use pork this time. Does anyone have an >idea for something like Cormarye, but beef? Or would the same recipe >work with beef? I don't recall ever making a major substitution like >that before. Any ideas? > >'Lainie Try one of the following. Korrin S. DaArdain Kitchen Steward of Household Port Karr Kingdom of An Tir in the Society for Creative Anachronism. Korrin.DaArdain at Juno.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Roast of Meat, A (Western Islamic, 13th c.) Andalusian p. A-38. From Cariadoc's Miscellany. Copyright by David Friedman, 1988, 1990, 1992 Roast salted, well-marbled meat [cut up] like fingertips, and put in a pot spices, onion, salt, oil and soaked garbanzos. Cook until done and add the roast meat; cover the contents of the pot with cilantro and sprinkle with pepper and cinnamon; and if you add whole pine nuts or walnuts in place of garbanzos, it will be good. 1 1/2 lb lamb or beef 2 15 oz cans chickpeas 3 small onions = 3/4 lb 1 t salt spices: 1/4 t cumin 1/2 t coriander 1/2 t cinnamon 1/4 t black pepper 3 T olive oil 1/4 c green coriander, pressed down 1/8 t more pepper 1/4 t more cinnamon Note: an earlier recipe in the same book calls for spices and then specifies which ones: "all the spices, pepper, cinnamon, dried coriander and cumin." Roast meat and cut into about 1/4" by 1/2" pieces. Slice onions. Put chickpeas, onion, spices, salt and oil in a pot and cook over moderate heat, stirring, for 10 minutes, turning down the heat toward the end as it gets dry; add meat and cook one minute, add green coriander and cook another minute, and turn off heat. Sprinkle with pepper and cinnamon and serve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A Roste - Beef Roast with Crisps Fabulous Feasts- Medieval Cookery and Ceremony by Madeleine Pelner Cosman ISBN 0-8076-0832-7 Posted by Jeff Pruett 4 TB Or more butter or oil for searing meat 5 lb. Beef roast tied with butcher's cord 1/2 c Flour 1 tsp. Cinnamon 1 tsp. Salt 1 tsp. Dried sweet basil; crushed 1/2 tsp. Dried rosemary; crushed 1/4 tsp. Thyme 1 c Dates; pits removed, cut in halves 1 c Dried figs; stems removed, -cut in strips 1/2 c Dried apple rings; cut in halves 2 TB Brown sugar or honey 1 1/2 c Beef stock BATTER 1 c Flour 1 ea. Egg 2/3 c Milk 1/4 tsp. Salt 1/2 tsp. (scant) baking powder 1/4 c Chopped fresh parsley; crushed Preheat oven to 350 degrees F. In Dutch oven or cast-iron pot (either having tight covers) melt the butter. Dredge the roast with the mixture of flour, cinnamon, and salt, and thoroughly sear in the heated butter, browning all sides. Mix basil, rosemary, and thyme. Mix spices with combined dates, figs, and apples. Arrange spiced fruits around the meat. Sprinkle sugar or drizzle honey on fruits. Carefully pour on beef stock around the edges of the pot so as to avoid 'flooding' any food surfaces. Cover tightly. Bake at 350 degrees F for 3 hours, or until tender. Remove from oven to cool for 30 minutes. Increase oven heat to 450 degrees F. Prepare a very thick batter by vigorously stirring all batter ingredients except parsley. Add extra flour if necessary. Add chopped parsley to the batter. Pour batter over the roast allowing the excess to trickle down into the gravy. Return meat to hot oven (450 degrees F) for 5 to 10 minutes so that coating browns nicely. Cut the roast in its dough jacket. Serve the 'crisps' which formed in the juices, along with the gravy and fruit. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Meat, Spit Roasted, with Egerdouce Sauce From The British Museum Cookbook by Michelle Berriedale-Johnson, 1987, British Museum Publications. Posted by Jennifer A. Newbury (jn1t+ at andrew.cmu.edu) In medieval Europe, the spits were turned by kitchen boys and were periodically dusted with spices and herbs. Since forks were still almost unknown the slices of meat were eaten in the fingers but accompanied by sauces. These were laid in small dishes (saucers) along the tables, and diners would dip the little finger of the right had only into the sauce and spread it on their meat. This finger was never licked but carefully wiped on a napkin out of respect for fellow diners. In the modern kitchen-- any joint of meat can be used, but it should be well flavored if the Egerdouce sauce is to be served with it. Cook it on a spit, a barbecue, or on an open rack in the oven. Sprinkle it lightly with ground mixed herbs plus a little of any spice that you fancy. Egerdouce Sauce 2 tablespoons olive oil 75 g (3 oz) onions, roughly chopped 25 g (1 oz) each of raisins and currants 1/2 teaspoon each salt, ground ginger, mace and saffron 1/4 teaspoon ground cloves 120 ml (4 fl oz, 1/2 cup) dry white wine 90 ml (3 fl oz, 1/3 cup) wine vinegar 25 g (1 oz) sugar 75 g (3 oz) wholemeal or whole wheat breadcrumbs Approx. 90 ml (3 fl oz, 1/3 c) water Gently cook the onions in the oil till they are soft. Add the fruit and spices and cook for a few minutes. Melt the sugar in the wine and vinegar and add this to the onion and fruits. Simmer all together, covered for 15 minutes then process or liquidise. Return the mixture to the pan and add the breadcrumbs and enough water to make a thick but not claggy sauce. Adjust the seasoning to taste and serve with the roast meat. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:14:34 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Roasting meats Kerri Canepa wrote: > Has anyone roasted meats using the boil first, roast second method? If so, I'd > like to know how long boiled and then how long roasted and at what > temperature. That would depend both on the type and size of the meat, and also on whether you mean the Taillevent (for example) parboil/plumping before roasting method, or, say, the boiling till essentially done and tender method I've used for things like whole ducks and certain cuts of pork, which are then browned in a medium-hot oven. My example of whole ducks would call for placing them in boiling water to scald and plump them, then reducing the heat and simmering for about 45 minute