marrow-msg - 5/15/10

Getting bone marrow. Dishes with bone marrow in them.

NOTE: See also the files: puddings-msg, organ-meats-msg, HC-butchers-art, butchering-msg, butch-goat-art, pig-to-sausag-art, blood-dishes-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 03:32:14 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Marrow

James L. Matterer wrote:
>  Can anyone give me advice on the availability of marrow, or what a good
> substitute may be? The dish I'm re-creating is "A bake Mete Ryalle" from
> Austin's Two 15th c. Cookery-Books, p 55, which calls for "cromyd Marow"
> (crumbled marrow), as well as a "gobet of marow."

Marrow is found inside certain large bones. For practical cookery
purposes, the thing to get is a beef or veal shank bone. You can get one
from either a butcher shop or the supermarket butcher. This may involve
purchasing the actual shank (with the meat on it, in other words), or
the butcher may have stripped bones on hand. If he doesn't, see if he
has either veal shanks cut for osso bucco, or more commonly, the cut of
beef generally called "soup meat", which is just sliced beef shank, bone
and all. Beef shank meat is relatively inexpensive, and makes wonderful
stews.

If you explain to the butcher (assuming he is reasonable, decent, and
has the time, all of which are partially contingent on how and when you
approach him) you may be able to get stripped beef or veal shank bones,
either for free, or some very nominal fee, and the butcher might even be
willing to segment or split the bones on a bandsaw for you, to
facilitate removal of the marrow. (My experience has been that my
butcher loves to get involved in any "crazy, harebrained scheme" I care
to propose, because he gets tired of weighing out hamburger all day, and
thrives on challenge.)

If the bones are cut into short segments, you can go in with a
thin-bladed knife to remove the marrow, or you can blanch the bones in
boiling water for a minute or two, which will loosen the marrow to the
point where it will slip out nicely. If the bone is split, you can
pretty much go in with a spoon and scoop it out.

As for a substitute, I suppose the closest would be beef or veal suet,
parboiled before using. The texture would be a bit different, and the
flavor not as rich, but the effect would be somewhat similar. Suet would
probably make a better substitute for the crumbled marrow than for large
chunks. I recommend grating it. 

Adamantius


Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 06:52:19 -0500
From: margali <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Marrow

James L. Matterer wrote:
>  Can anyone give me advice on the availability of marrow, or what a good
> substitute may be? The dish I'm re-creating is "A bake Mete Ryalle" from
> Austin's Two 15th c. Cookery-Books, p 55, which calls for "cromyd Marow"
> (crumbled marrow), as well as a "gobet of marow."
>
> Master Huen/Jim Matterer

if memory serves, and this early in the am on a saturday, wihthout
coffee i am bordering on amnesiac...i think a vegetable marrow in
european terms is a form of squash, and i would surmise a gobet of
marrow may refer to the real thing, winkled out of a suitable bone, beef
pork or lamb. of course the first may refer to cooked marrow which is
then crmbled up?
as to where to get it, go to the butchers or wherever you can find the
really large legbones of a cow[because if you try to get it from the
little shank sections it will take forever toget enough] and ask for
marrow bones, marrow is present in ribs and other bones, but the leg
bine segments are the easiest to get it from. unless it calls for raw
marrow, i like to roast the bones and then crack them to pull out the
whole piece at once rather than to scoop it out in bits. marrow is good
to ebnrich soup, and i have a nice attereaux recipe calling for marrow
and truffles in a nice bearnaise sauce crumbed and fried that is to die
for.

margali


Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 09:53:43 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Marrow

James L. Matterer wrote:
> I haven't redacted the recipe yet, but I'm assuming up to at least 1/2 cup
> of marrow per pie, with one pie feeding 6 people, meaning I'll need
> (uhm...) 20 or more cups of marrow. Now, I'm not sure of how much marrow
> to expect to extract from shank bones, etc. Is it reasonable to hope
> that a local butcher could help me obtain enough?

You'll need from 10-20 marrow bones. The ten estimate assumes you get
most or all of the marrow from each bone. Sometimes it can be tricky.

Perhaps if you ask him now, he could begin stockpiling bones in the
freezer for you. The problem with using bones larger than shank bones is
that very few butchers are dealing now with the real, old-fashioned
primary cuts of meat anymore, so there are fewer and fewer halves of
beef and veal, or even steamship rounds (whole, on the [thigh] bone)
from which marrow can be got. More and more butchers are getting in what
used to be called secondary cuts, which wouldn't include some of those
really large bones. You might find you need to contact a wholesale
butcher for that, and a wholesale butcher might not consider such a
project a good use of his time and premises, when he can sell those
bones (which few people usually want) to tallow rendering plants (marrow
is mostly fat anyway).

I suggest you start making phone calls and, if necessary, in-person
visits. If you have access to a good local butcher, ask his advice,
especially if you have developed a good working relationship with him.

Warning: semi-frivolous advice follows...but not TOO frivolous...

Is there any way you can work some shank meat into the rest of your
menu? If you told your butcher that you need 10 veal or beef shanks
(beef will be less expensive, but there may be more meat on 10 beef
shanks than you can use; I'd guess a total of about 50 or 60 pounds, off
the bone) he'd probably get them for you without blinking an eye, and
bone them, trim them, AND crack the bones however you want. And shank
meat makes excellent stew meat and braised roasts.

Just a thought. Good luck!
Adamantius


Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 17:00:10 -0500
From: margali <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Marrow

Alderton, Philippa wrote:
> OK, Margali-the-spoon-tease, where's the recipe? When you wake up, of
> course.
>
> : i have a nice attereaux recipe calling for marrow
> : and truffles in a nice bearnaise sauce crumbed and fried that is to die
> : for.
> :
> : margali

to make it easier, get a set of those canape cutters, they cut out
little squares, circles and other funky shapes.
6" bamboo skewers, soaked in water
a bowl of fine bread crumbs, i recommend brioche, for the eggy sweet taste
a bowl of cold bearnaise sauce
a deep frying pot-fry baby is ok, i have a nice tefal roti

take the whole truffle, slice thinly into rounds, 'cookie cut' in a round shape
take cooked whole marrow that has been chilled to firm up, slice into
1/4 or 1/3" slices, "cookie cut" into rounds as well.
i suppose you could substitute a portobello for the marrow for those veggies amoung us
thread the truffle and marrow rounds onto a skewer, roll in the sauce,
then in the crumbs and drop into the hot oil.

after the crumbs have browned nicely[this is on the order of fried ice
cream] take out and carefully replace the bamboo skewers with actual
atteraux skewers if you have them.

attereaux are garnishes classically, which became hors-d'oeuvres.
use a really fancy mold to make a polenta or rice mold, stick these in
decoratively and serve to the table as an assiette voulonte, or if you
have the really small bundlet mold[they make a 3"dia mini bundt without
a hole in the middle] you could make the mini mold of soubise of rice,
cut the skewer short, so it fits nicely on top of the rice lump, pipe a
thickened paste of peas or artichoke base[not the pickled heart, but the
actual freshly cooked base in season] around the bottom and around where
the skewer is stuck in, and add little savory mini madelaines[scallop
shell shaped sponge cookies] decoratively...whatever floats your boat.

i suppose if you were real poor, you could substitute portobellos
brushed with olive oil infused with truffles for the truffles...

margali

[you can make almost anything into an attereaux, just trim it
decoratively onto thin rounds or squares, layer a bunch of different
things together roll in a white sauce and then crumbs and deep fry. yes,
i have actually even peeled cock's combs and used them. yecch.]


Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 08:12:59 -0500
From: margali <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Marrow, now longer post

Morgan wrote:

> > > : margali wrote:
>
> > attereaux are garnishes classically, which became hors-d'oeuvres.
> > use a really fancy mold to make a polenta or rice mold, stick these in
> > decoratively and serve to the table as an assiette voulonte, or if you
> > have the really small bundlet mold[they make a 3"dia mini bundt without
> > a hole in the middle] you could make the mini mold of soubise of rice,
> > cut the skewer short, so it fits nicely on top of the rice lump, pipe a
> > thickened paste of peas or artichoke base[not the pickled heart, but the
> > actual freshly cooked base in season] around the bottom and around where
> > the skewer is stuck in, and add little savory mini madelaines[scallop
> > shell shaped sponge cookies] decoratively...whatever floats your boat.
>
>   HUH???  There are just too many weird terms here . . .I have >NO IDEA <
> what you are talking about.  And I would hope I'm not the only barbarian in
> this circle.   In  > much < simpler english, Por favor, explain this
> paragraph.  Esp. the following terms:  Attereaux,  Assiette voulonte,
> bundlet mold,  soubise.
>
>         Caointiarn

attereaux-think of them as miniature shishkebobs with a european format.
stack about 3-6 inches of sliced whatever, thread onto a bamboo skewer.
roll in a cold whitesauce, then into crumbs. deep fry til crispy and
golden brown. these are used as a garnish stuck into things. they make
cute gold, silver and brass skewers with fancy ends to use in place of
the skewer after the frying.

assiette voulonte-literally a flying dish, a small dish to be served
between courses or several of them as a 'high tea' sort of thing. if you
like, think of it as an hors d'oeuvre between courses.

bundt mold-that 9" round mold with a swirly top and a hole down the
center-look in the baking isle for boxes of bundt cake mix, they show a
finished one. there is a placque out that makes 2" diameter mini bundts,
called a bundtlet mold or you can find them in flea markets occasionally.

soubise-cook rice in stock with chopped onion and green peas, I also
like to crumble in bacon, but that is just plain decadence.

Hope this helps- I am classically trained, and much of this stuff isn’t
common to nouvelle cuisine or standard american resturant cooking

margali


Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:07:11 -0600
From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net>
Subject: SC - Crustade Lombard revisited

Greetings, all! In light of the recent debate over Lombardy Custard, I just
found a modern redaction for it in a book that was an Xmas Present,
Christmas Feasts by Lorna J. Sass. Thought you'd like to see it, even though
it completely ignores the directions for drawing through a strainer until it
is stiff (the part we had trouble interpreting). She adds spices not in the
original and does not dust with sugar or salt before baking, either. She
claims, however, "This spicy, fruited custard was served at king Richard
II's feast given with the Duke of Lancaster on September 23, 1387. it is one
of my favorite medieval dishes and always makes a hit with the guests. With
the combination of marrow and fruits, it seems another early variant of
mincemeat." it would seem, based on that statement that although the recipe
dates to the 15th century, the dish itself is a good bit older. I think I
prefer the final redaction the list assisted Cindy Renfrow (Mistress
Sincgiefu) with,  over this one for accuracy.

The original:

Take gode creme, & leuys of Percely, & Eryoun, the yolkys & the whyte, &
breke hem therto, & strayne throwe a straynoure tyl it be so styf that it
wol bere hym-self. Than take fayre Marwe & Datys y-cutte in ij or iij  &
Prunes & putte the Datys on the Prunes & Marwe on a fayre Cofynne y-mad of
fayre past & put the cofyn on the ovyn tyl it be a lytel hard. Thanne draw
hem out of the ovyn. Take the lycour & putte ther-on &fyll it uppe & caste
Sugre y-now on, & salt; then lat it bake togederys tyl it be y-now; & if it
be in lente, let the Eyroun & the Marwe out & thanne serve it forth.
(Harleian Ms. 279, British Library 15th century).

Lombardy Custard (copyright, L. J. Sass)
9-inch uncooked pie pastry shell
15 each pitted prunes and dates, cut into small pieces
2 tablespoons raw bone marrow, crumbled*
3 tablespoons finely minced parsley
1 cup heavy cream
2 tablespoons brown sugar
2 eggs lightly beaten
Pinch salt
3/4 teaspoon dried orange peel
1 teaspoon cinnamon
Pinch mace

Preheat oven to 425 degrees.
Bake the pie pastry at 425 degrees for 10 minutes. Set aside to cool.
Linr the pie crust with the dried fruits. Distribute the marrow and parsley
evenly over the fruit.
Combine the remaining ingredients in a bowl. (The spices are not called for
in the original recipe, but make a delicious addition.) Beat until
thoroughly blended. pour the mixture over the fruits in the crust.
bake at 375 degrees for 30 to 40 minutes, or until the custard is set up and
the top is brown.
Let the crustade cool for about 5 minutes before serving.

* Ask your butcher to hack open a beef bone so that you can easily get at
the marrow.

Those who were following this thread---what do you think?

Aoife (hey, at least it's not Cuskynoles!).


Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:47:57 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - Tartys in Applis-NEW recipe-enjoy

>Along similar lines, has anyone found a good way to get large amounts of
>marrow.  The butchers I've talked to around here (admittedly, not many)
>just look at me funny when I ask for marrow bones. The recipes that call
>for marrow (apple pie among them) are sooo much better when actually
>made with marrow...(although, due to the problem mentioned above, I
>usually substitute butter :-()
>
>toodles, margaret

Hello!  I just ask for a large soup bone *for the dog*.  Usually no problem
getting one at no charge, & the butcher will even cut it in sections for me.

Cindy


Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:46:42 PDT
From: "Clarissa Baker" <clarissa_baker at hotmail.com>
Subject: SC - Re:Marrow recipe, oop but barely

 Marrow pasties, Mrs Silvester Gardner, 1763

Cut half a pound of marrow in little Lumps, and throw Salt upon them;
skin shred six apples small and mix them therewith; to which, add a
quarter of a pound of Sugar.  Season with beaten Mace, Cinnamon, and
Nutmeg; mix half a pound of currants ready washed and plumpt, well with
all the other ingredients, with Sack, Rose Water, or Orange Flower
Water, to make them into turn-over Pasties with Puff Paste


Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 01:10:28 -0600
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Marrow

At 11:12 PM -0600 1/20/00, RANDALL DIAMOND wrote:
>My question is have any of y'all served marrow bones
>at SCA feasts, at head table for instance, or ever
>have rendered the marrow for cooking oil purposes.
>I find that it freezes and keeps well , though hell may
>freeze over before I lose my allotted 70 pounds and can
>have it (occasionally) again.  Any good period data on
>marrow dishes would be appreciated.

"Caboges," from _Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books_, uses marrow 
bones, and is an old favorite of mine. The recipe says to knock out 
the marrow at the end and serve it with the caboges, but I've also 
served it with the marrow bones.

David Friedman
Professor of Law


From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Marrow
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:22:25 -0500

The problem is genus Cucurbita is of New World origin.  The Cucurbita
replaced the Langenaria, or bottle gourds, on European tables beginning in
the 16th Century.

The OED places the first use of marrow as referring to a cucurbit in 1816.
Thus pre-17th Century cooking references to marrow are almost certainly
referring to bone marrow.

Bear

>Yes, British vegetable marrows are part of the
>marrow/zuchini group of Summer squashes or
>cucurbita pepo. Alan Davidson notes that the
>British have for some time taken to growing them
>to extreme sizes and dimensions for contests and
>exhibitions.
>
>Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway
>
>Linda Peterson wrote:
>> We're discussing marrow and it's use in puddings and rissoles. I think
>> it's refering to bone marrow, but someone suggests squash. Can anyone
>> expound on which is most likely and if the brittish vegetable marrow is
>> really what we think of here as an overgrown zuchinni? Mirhaxa


Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:37:14 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Marrow

>Mark.S Harris wrote:
>>Mirhaxa asked:
>>>We're discussing marrow and it's use in puddings and rissoles. I think
>>>it's refering to bone marrow, but someone suggests squash. Can anyone
>>>expound on which is most likely and if the brittish vegetable marrow is
>>>really what we think of here as an overgrown zuchinni?
>>
>>Without seeing the recipes, from previous discussions here, I would
>>say it is almost certainly bone marrow.
>
>Yeah, I'd have to agree, especially since a) isn't zucchini is new
>world squash? and b) the marrow provides shortening in various baked
>goods, similar to suet, but with a richer flavor

and c)

An whan thou seruyst yt inne, knocke owt the marw of the bonys, an
ley the marwe ij gobettys or iij in a dysshe, as the semyth best, and
serue forth.

(Caboges in _Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books_)
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/


From: Devra at aol.com
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:15:23 EST
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: marrow bones

"Eggs, eggs and marrow bones
Will make your oldman blind.."
     -----old song

In either To the King's or To The Queen's Taste there is a LOVELY rice pudding recipe which uses marrow...  They say it's good warm, and it certainly is.  Four of us sat on my front steps one day, tasting it 'while it cooled' until it was all gone.  The addition of pepper to the usual spices adds a little snap that is brought out by eating it hot to warm.  Cool, the pepper is sort of subdued...

Devra (at work, or I'd quote the recipe)


Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:16:06 +0100
From: UlfR <parlei at algonet.se>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] marrow bones

Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> [2001.12.12] wrote:
> Anyway, you've got to do the marrow-filled beef birds from Taillevent.

How about doing the deer marrow pasties from Grewe? Might work with the
beef marrow, even if the deer ones should give more flavour.
--
UlfR                                                 parlei at algonet.se


Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:21:42 +0100
From: UlfR <parlei at algonet.se>
To: SCA-Cooks maillist <SCA-Cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] marrow bones

Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net> [2001.12.13] wrote:
> I would appreciate both of these recipes being quoted here, when someone
> gets the chance.

                  20 A Pasty of Deer Marrow (K17, D15)
    Boil deer bones; crack them open when they are cold. Make a dough of
    wheat flour and water. Out on it (i.e., spread over the rolled pastry)
    salt, pepper, and cinnamon, and the marrow from the bones; make a pastry
    of it (i.e., roll it up and pinch it closed; cf recipie 30) and bake it
    in an oven.

I have never tried this recipie, with any kind of marrow. The recipie 30
that is refered to in Grewes composite translation is the famed
"Icelandic chickens". I think I have some beef marrow in the freezer (not
very much, but enough for a small sample), and this is odd enough
that I want to try it. A cold water crust with spiced fat. Certainly not
health food...

UlfR


Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 17:57:29 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Marrow substitute
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Also sprach Volker Bach:
> I haven't got terribly much experience with this, but I found a few recipes
> that require melted beef marrow. I'm wondering - marrow is kind of hard to
> come by in these post-BSE days, so what could I use as a substitute? 
> Is there anything?
>
> Giano

Rendered beef suet (don't let it brown) should do the trick, the kind
of hard fat from around the kidney or inside the loin. In a pinch,
the fat (rendered) from a rib roast or steak would do it. Marrow is
almost all fat, but it has a rich, meaty flavor, even when melted.

Adamantius


Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 09:18:44 -0500
From: "Michael Gunter" <countgunthar at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Marrow substitute
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Strangely enough I've had no problem getting marrow. I just
go to the local supermarket and ask for shin bones cut
lengthwise. I've never had any difficulty getting this done.
And it's usually pretty cheap.

Gunthar


Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 08:31:12 -0700
From: Dragon <dragon at crimson-dragon.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] properly prepared marrow?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Stefan li Rous wrote:
Back on June 6, Dragon commented:
<<< Laura C. Minnick wrote:
Organ meats/offal, or marrow. And I haven't the courage to eat eel.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Marrow properly prepared and spread on a glorious piece of bread is
heavenly. >>>

So what is the proper way to prepare marrow for this? And is there a
particular marrow you have in mind? Beef? Chicken? something else?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

It actually could not be simpler.

Simmer the marrow bones in a good broth, scoop the marrow out and 
spread it on bread.

Dragon


Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 09:22:53 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] properly prepared marrow?
To: grizly at mindspring.com, Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Aug 12, 2008, at 8:54 AM, Nick Sasso wrote:
-----Original Message-----
Marrow properly prepared and spread on a glorious piece of bread is
heavenly. >>>

So what is the proper way to prepare marrow for this? And is there a
particular marrow you have in mind? Beef? Chicken? something else?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

It actually could not be simpler.

Simmer the marrow bones in a good broth, scoop the marrow out and
spread it on bread.  > > > > > >

That would be beef bones.
------

Veal bones, too, generally from the femur or the shank bone. Smaller  
or narrower bones (think cross-section) such as ribs won't have any  
significant amount of marrow in them.

Adamantius


Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:03:01 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] properly prepared marrow?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Aug 12, 2008, at 10:15 PM, Stefan li Rous wrote:
<<< That would be beef bones.
------
Veal bones, too, generally from the femur or the shank bone. Smaller
or narrower bones (think cross-section) such as ribs won't have any
significant amount of marrow in them.

Adamantius >>>

Thanks. yes the size of the bones makes sense. So what about the  
larger bones of pigs or sheep? Are these two small to be worth the  
effort or is there some reason this marrow isn't as good as veal or  
beef? >>>

The short answer would probably be, some combination of both. Pork  
bones, and their marrow, can have a slightly sulfurous aspect to their  
flavor profile, which is why you [relatively] rarely find stock being  
made from fresh pork bones, unless it's being mixed with chicken  
bones, shrimp shells, etc. It's a popular meat for southern Chinese  
soups of a sort of country or family style, like real winter melon  
soup, which is a slightly different animal than the stuff you get in  
restaurants. I'm a heretic in this regard, and prefer the chicken or  
mixed pork, chicken and shrimp versions. My mother-in-law makes all- 
pork soups frequently, and all her children love them ("Mmmmm!!! Pork  
neck bones boiled in dishwater, improperly skimmed _and_  
unseasoned!"), but I'm not really seeing the allure. I guess I'm  
spoiled, brought up by rich people (!) with questionable values, and  
generally a barbarian.

As for sheep bones, well, you've pretty much got to like mutton and  
lamb to appreciate their marrow, which is basically fat anyway, and  
the thing that most mutton-avoiders seem to object to most is the  
flavor of the fat, so this is probably something that carries over  
into their view on the marrow of these animals.

Also, as you mention, their marrow bones are smaller, and just as hard  
to saw through for somewhat less of a payday. I wouldn't be surprised,  
though, to find that I'm not the only one who passionately enjoys  
something like lamb shanks, fishing for the marrow when the meat is  
eaten.

Adamantius


Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 02:13:51 -0400
From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] properly prepared marrow?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,	SCA-Cooks
	maillist SCA-Cooks <SCA-Cooks at Ansteorra.org>

--On Thursday, August 14, 2008 12:53 AM -0500 Stefan li Rous 
<stefanlirous at austin.rr.com> wrote:
<<< Anybody know of any evidence of these [marrow spoons] being used during our period? To a certain extent, this makes me think of a later time period, Georgian? Edwardian? But I can imagine them being used in upper crust period feasts. >>>

The OED has it at the end of the 17th C:

1693 London Gaz. No. 2853/4, 1 Sweat-meat Spoon, 1 *Marrow Spoon, 1 Ladle 
and Skillet.

<A Register of the Members of St. Mary Magdalen College, Oxford,> notes an 
object identified in a modern inventory as a marrow spoon with an 
inscription dating to 1667 and another whose inscription is dated 1664.

I'm not sure about the heavy ball on the end though; most descriptions I'm 
seeing suggest a scoop at both ends (or one describes a fork with a marrow 
spoon as a handle)

toodles, margaret


Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:00:39 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Is Zuccnini Marrow?

<<< Am correct that Zuccinni is marrow and if so how about a few some 
what period recipes for using it up?
                  Kay >>>

Note that "marrow" refers to two entirely different things. 
"Vegetable marrow" is the British term for various varieties of 
squash, at least some of which are similar to Zucchini. "Marrow" is 
the stuff inside bones. There are lots of references to marrow in 
period cookbooks. What is now called "vegetable marrow" is from the 
New World. The earliest use of the term given in the OED is 19th 
century, so I think it's safe to assume that references to "marrow" 
in period cookbooks don't refer to it.

As another poster has explained, there were old world edible gourds 
in period, but they don't seem to have been called marrows.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com


Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 18:55:55 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: <mirhaxa at morktorn.com>,	"Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Is Zuccnini Marrow?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Linda Peterson" <mirhaxa at morktorn.com>
<<< So now I'm even more confused about marrows. They appear to be different from zucchini, and more variable in appearance. Maybe we can get Michele to grow some. >>>

Marrow is a very general and slippery term.  In the broadest usage, any New World squash is a vegetable marrow.  For example, I have a color plate in Elizabeth David's Italian Food that identifies a pumpkin-like squash (looks like a Japanese pumpkin to me) as a marrow.  In this usage, zucchini would be a marrow.

In the narrower, botanical usage, a marrow is any of the varieties of C. ovifera, a subspecies of C. pepo that produces a wide range of ornamental squash in many shapes and colors.  In particular, marrow refers to members of C. ovifera that are being used as a food stuff.  Zucchini does not fall under this definition, but is a close relative of the vegetable marrow. Some of the ornamental squashes that show up in groceries in the fall to be used as Thanksgiving and Christmas decorations will be vegetable marrows.

The term marrow can also refer to an avocado.

The earliest use of the term vegetable marrow that I have found is 19th 
Century, so it marrow is most likely to refer strictly to New World squash.

Bear 


Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:34:27 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Is Zuccnini Marrow?

Most precisely, marrows  (primarily ornamental squash being used as table 
vegetables) are variants of C. pepo ovifers.  Zucchini are a variant of C. 
pepo closely related to C. ovifers, but not considered part of the 
subspecies.

General usage of the term marrow is broader than the taxonomic usage, so any 
number of members of C. pepo from zucchini to pumpkins can be referred to as 
marrows.

Bear

<<< Am correct that Zuccinni is marrow and if so how about a few somewhat 
period recipes for using it up?
                  Kay >>>


Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 23:19:31 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Is Zuccnini Marrow?

wyldrose wrote:
<<< Am correct that Zuccinni is marrow and if so how about a few some what 
period recipes for using it up?
Kay >>>

*zucchini* so named for Ital., pl. of /zucchino/ (small) marrow, dim. of 
/zucca/ gourd. ]

*are known in the United Kingdom as * Courgettes. Also const. as sing.

*Zucchini is t*he usual word for the vegetable in N. America and 
Australia. OED only dates it back to 1929.

John Ato writes "*zucchini* /Zucchini/ is the usual term in American and 
Australian English for /courgettes/, to which it is etymologically 
related. It is a direct borrowing of Italian /zucchini/, the plural of 
/zucchino/, ?courgette?, which is a diminutive form of /zucca/, ?gourd?. 
This came from Latin /cucutia/, a by-form of /cucurbita/, source of 
French /courge/, ?gourd? (of which /courgette/ is a diminutive)."

(You can do an image search on Google and compare the produce to the 
names. It's quite easy to see the differences between the vegetable 
marrows and zucchini.)

Zucchini, as grown in the USA today, are summer squash and would have 
come to the Old World after 1492.
What was already in the Old World was "The white-flowering /zucca 
rampicante/ (vining gourd) or /zucca a tromba/ (trumpet gourd) is an Old 
World cucurbit (/Lagenaria siceraria/) that has been grown in the 
Mediterranean region since ancient times. The edible baby gourds, shown 
here, were known as /zucchette/ or /zucchini/ in Italian and were the 
breeding model for the New World squash grown today under the name of 
zucchini." The squash bore a resemblance to other cucurbits known to the 
Romans, although they belonged to other plant species. It received the 
name of /calabash/ and a false identity as /zucco/ from Syria. From this 
comes its present-day name, zucchini.
See Maynard, David and Donald N. Maynard. "Squash and Gourds." 
_Encyclopedia of Food and Culture_.

What we have discovered in the past and been over a number of times on 
the list is that the wording in various books is not precise when it 
comes to the marrows, squashes, and gourds.
There are pages and pages of posts on this topic in the Florilegium.

The best guess is that the zucchini type of squashes substituted in for 
an earlier white flowered gourd.
The easy way to search for gourd recipes from period texts is to go to 
http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi/booksearch.pl
and search under gourd.

Johnnae

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Edited by Mark S. Harris	marrow-msg	Page 14 of 14