horse-recipes-msg ­ 10/16/04 Period horse recipes. References. NOTE: See also the files: exotic-meats-msg, fd-Mongols-msg, fd-Turkey-msg, kumiss-msg, horses-msg, food-sources-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:43:05 -0800 From: Susan Fox-Davis Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Society Equestrian Newsletter! (fwd) I really have to worry when the equestrian notices show up on the cooks' list. We just voted against use of horses for human consumption here in California. Okay, it's period. The Bayeaux Tapestry has a panel showing a cook leading several animals off to the rotisserie, and one of the food-beasts is clearly a horse. A fat little pony, clearly not a Knight's Charger. However... just because it's period, doesn't mean I want to eat it. Lady Selene Colfox, Caid not an equivore selene at earthlink.net Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:48:25 EST From: korrin.daardain at juno.com (Korrin S DaArdain) Subject: Re: SC - Horse (Recipes) On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:05:19 EST LrdRas at aol.com writes: >Horse, cat, rat , guinea pig and any type of recipe served in period >is appropriate for this list, IMO. Many of them have been served and are >eaten by some on this list. Although you personally may not choose to eat them, >that is not a platform from which to insist others don't and certainly is not >any reason that discussion and research into their preparation and service >can or should be stifled. > >Ras Sorry, I don't have any recipes for cat, rat, or guinea pig. But I do have a few for horse. So now that the horse is here let's cook it up! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kazy (Horse Sausage) (Kazakh) From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page (www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html) For making: 5 kg of kazy 350 g of salt 10 g of black ground pepper a garlic For serving the table: 100 g of kazy 0,25 of an onion 2 table-spoons of green canned peas From the carcass of the slaughtered horse the ribs with flesh are cut off and the blood is let trickle down for 5-7 hours. The guts are washed well and kept in salt water for 1-2 hours. The slightly dried up kazy are cut in strips along the ribs: the brand kazy are cut in narrow strips and the narrow ones - in broad strips. The interrib tissue should be cut with a shapp knife removing cartilages and without crumbling the fat. Then the meat is salted and peppered, finely cut garlic is added and the meat is wrapped up in a napkin for 2-3 hours. Then kazy are put in guts the ends of which are tied up. After this kazy can be dried, boiled and smoked. It is better to dry kazy by warm weather hanging them out for a week in a sunny aired place. It is best to smoke kazy in dew smoke at the temperature of 50-60_ c during 12-18 hours and dry them up during 4-6 hours at 12_c. Kazy should be boiled for 2 hours in a broad vessel on slow fire. That kazy should not burst during boiling they should be pierced at several places. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Shuzhuk (Horse Sausage) (Kazakh) From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page (www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html) For making: 5 kg of horse-flesh 5 kg of suet 350 g of salt 10 g of black ground pepper 50 g of garlic greens to taste The prepared meat is rubbed with salt and kept fur 1-2 days in a cool place at the temperature of 3-4_c. Guts are washed and kept for some time in salt water. Meat and fat are cut in small pieces and mixed. Garlic, pepper and salt are added and all this is mixed again. Then the guts are stuffed, its both ends are tied up with a string and they are hung out for 3-4 hours in a cool place. Shuzhuk is smoked during 12-18 hours over dense smoke at the temperature of 50-60_c, then dried up at 12_c for 2-3 days. Dried or smoked shuzhuk is boiled on slow fire during 2-2,5 hours. Before serving the table shuzhuk is cut in thin slices to 1 cm thick, layed out on a plate, decorated with rings of onion and greens. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Zhaya (Kazakh) From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page (www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html) For making: 5 kg of zhaya 125 of salt Zaya is made of the horse's hip. The upper muscular layer with fat to 10 cm thick is cut off. The pieces of meat are salted using salting mature, layed out in a pan for salting. Then it is dried up, dried, smoked and boiled like zhal. Before serving the table it is cut in thin slices and decorated with greens. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Zhal (Kazakh) From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page (www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html) For making: 5 kg zhal 125 g of salt Zhal is an oblong accumulation of fat in the undercrest part of the horse's neck. It is cut off with a thin flesh layer, rubbed with dry salting mixture and put in a pan for salting. Then it is dried up during 10 hours. Zhal can be smoked and dried. Before boiling zhal ls soaked in cold water; then it is boiled on slow fire for 2 hours. Zhal is served both hot and cold cut in slices, decorated with rings of onion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karta (Horse Rectum) (Kazakh) From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page (www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html) For making one karta: 100 g of karta salt green pepper or dill to taste The thick part of the rectum is washed without removing fat, then carefully turned inside out so that the fat should be inside, washed once more and tied up on both sides. Karta can also be dried and smoked. To dry it karta is strewed with fine salt and kept in a cool place for 1-2 days, then dried up. Karta is smoked during 24 hours, then dried during 2-3 days. After washing it well karta is boiled for 2 hours on slow fire. Before serving the table it is cut in rings and decorated with green pepper or dill. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sur-Yet (Dried Meat) (Kazakh) From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page (www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html) For making: 5 kg of horse-flesh 200 g of salt Horse-flesh is cut off from bones, tendons, cartilages and fat are removed and the meat is cut in rectangular pieces 0,5-1 kg each, salted and kept in a cool place for 5-7 days. Then it is dried up during 10-12 hours. Sur- yet is smoked like zhal and zhaya and consumed only boiled. Before boiling it is waked in cold water. Sur-yet is boiled to readiness on slow fire during 2 hours. Before serving the table it is cut in thin slices, decorated with rings of onion and greens. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Meat in the Kazakh Manner (Kazakh) From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page (www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html) For broth: 750 g of mutton 1270 g of horse-flesh 1200 g of beef 1-2 onions green onions salt and spice to taste. For dough: 375 g of flour 0,3 of a piala of meat broth or water 2 eggs a tea-spoon of salt. For gravy: a piala of broth 1-2 onions. This dish is made of mutton, horse- flesh and beef. The prepared and washed pieces of meat are put in a cauldron or pan with cold water and brought to boiling; then the fire is lessened, scum removed and boiling on slow fire is continued to meat's readiness. 30-40 minutes before the end of boiling laurel leaf, an onion, peppercorn and salt to taste are added to the broth. While the meat is boiling dough is kneaded; it is left for 30-40 minutes, then rolled in a layer i-1,5 mm thick and cut in squares 8 cm each. Half an hour before the end of boiling of the meat one can drop in the broth whole peeled potatoes, boil them to readiness and together with meat put them in a closed vessel. In a separate small pan onion cut in rings, salt, pepper and spicy greens are put, covered with fat skimmed from the hot broth, then the lid is tightly put on and all this is stewed. Square of rolled dough are dropped in boiling broth, boiled to readiness, layed out on a flat plate and covered with gravy. On top of them pieces of meat are put (the present-day housewives prefer to cut it in slices) and on top of it onion rings stewed in fat are put. Along the edges the dish is decorated with boiled potatoes. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kuyrdak made of Meat (Kazakh) From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page (www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html) 800 g of mutton or beef, or horse- flesh, or camel's flesh, or saiga's flesh, or wild goat's flesh 3 onions 150 g of fat for frying 250 g of broth greens salt spice and sour cream to taste For gamish: 2 kg of potatoes 150 g of green peas 250 g of tomatoes 250 g of carrots. For marinade: a piala of 3% vinegar 50 g of oil. Meat is cut in pieces 30-40 g each and fried in hot fat with onion and pepper, salted to taste; then laurel leaf and broth are added and the meat is stewed to readiness. If kuyrdak is made of saiga's or wild goat's flesh the meat must be beforehand soaked in 3% vinegar with addition of a small quantity of oil for 4-6 hours. As garnishes to kuyrdak boiled, fried or stewed with the meat potatoes, boiled carrots, green peas and tomatoes can be served. The dish is strewed with greens to taste. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Siberian Meat Dumplings (Kazakh) From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page (www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html) Dough is made of screened flour eggs water and salt After kneading it is left for 30-40 minutes, then rolled in a thin layer 1,5-2 mm thick and cut in small circles or squares about 50 mm each; force-meat is put on them and the edges are stuck together. Siberian meat dumplings are cooked in boiling salted water no more than 5-7 minutes after they come to the surface. They are served in soup-plates with broth or sour cream. Siberian meat dumplings can not only be boiled but also fried to readiness in geeted melted butter. Fried meat dumplings can be served with katyk in a piala. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Korrin S. DaArdain Kitchen Steward of Household Port Karr Kingdom of An Tir in the Society for Creative Anachronism. Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:03:52 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Rendered horse fat LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > Could you post any info on the is subject to me privately? Historically, the > consuming of horese meat was very much frowned upon in main stream Europe > during most of , if not all, of the Middle Ages and this aversion has survived > in Anglo cultures all around the world to the present day. I have had a VERY > difficult time finding any information dealing with this subject other than > personal feelings, gut reactions, and other non-substantive sources. > > Ras Horsemeat has been eaten under various circumstances in Europe more or less since the domestication of the horse. It hasn't always been popular, but it is an ancient habit that persists to the present day, so I'd be very hard put to believe it wasn't eaten in period. Hey, _people_ were eaten in period Europe. I believe the major source of a known aversion to horsemeat in the English-speaking world, anyway, has to do with laws enacted by Norman English rulers who happened to be, in theory, Christians. I make the distinction because this is not even remotely one of those cases of the-evil-Church-trying-to-run-everyone's-life (yawn), but more a political thing enacted by secular authorities. I gather horse-eating is associated with certain religious rituals of the pre-Christian Anglo-Saxons, and prohibiting it by secular authority (in a culture ruled by cavalry, more or less, mind you) was probably yet another method of forcing the Saxons to become assimilated. Both Christianity and Norman law, of course, spread more or less South to North in England, of, which is perhaps why until at least the early years of this century it was (and I have no evidence it isn't, still) a pejorative term in England to refer to Yorkshiremen as "kicker-eaters", "kicker" being a North Country term for horsemeat. See James Frazer's "The Golden Bough" for more on this, as well as Calvin W. Schwabe's "Unmentionable Cuisine"; I think there's something about this in Tannahill's "Food in History", too. The Larousse Gastronomique also tells about horse-eating, primarily the use of horsemeat in various local specialty sausages (donkeys too!) in France and Spain, as I recall. Adamantius Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:54:22 -0500 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" Subject: Re: SC - Rendered horse fat And it came to pass on 13 Feb 99,, that LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > I have had a VERY difficult time finding any information dealing > with this subject other than personal feelings, gut reactions, and > other non-substantive sources. Not a recipe, but... The _Arte Cisoria_, the 1423 carving manual I mentioned recently, refers to the cooking of horses. They are *not* on the list of quadrupeds commonly eaten in Spain, but they are mentioned in a later chapter, when the author is giving instructions for carving specific animals. Having given the proper carving for various cattle and deer, he goes on to say [my translation], "The horse, in Turkey and Tartary, where they eat it as an esteemed food, they roast whole, and the thighs with the tail and the pelt, until the middle of the backbone as the better [part], and from it they slice wide and thin slices, at the feasts, before those of superior station, and those for the people they leave small." I do not know how much reliance one can place on the comments of a 15th century Spaniard regarding Turkish dietary habits. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 22:45:10 +0200 From: Thomas Gloning Subject: SC - Re: horse recipe 1581 Someone asked whether horsemeat was period. At least there is a recipe for wild horse in the German cookbook of Marx Rumpolt 1581 [see: http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_Rumpolt1.htm]. Gwen-Cat, Lord Ras and myself had some discussion about this recipe in march. Here is a translation into (sort of) English followed by the original text of the recipe from Rumpolt (fol. LVIa): ************************************************************* >From a wild horse You can prepare the meat from a wild horse in a black pepper sauce, and if you want to have the meat roasted/ salt it well/ for it is a sweet meat. You can also prepare the roast with garlic. If you want to prepare it in a pepper sauce, put water onto the meat and salt it well. When its well cooked pull it on to a board and let it become cold. Make a good Hungarian pepper sauce with the blood of chicken that is slightly sour [e.g. by putting apples into the sauce]. When the pepper sauce is prepared put the meat therein then it becomes good and mellow. You can also prepare the testicles of a wild horse or of a native horse in the same way as is earlier described in the recipe for the testicles of the buck/ram/billy goat. Von einem wilden Pferdt VOm wilden Pferdt kan man zurichten in einem schwarzen Pfeffer/ Vnd wenn du es braten wilt/ so saltz es wol/ denn es ist ein su:esses Fleisch/ kanst den Braten auch mit Knobloch zurichten. Wenn man es wil im Pfeffer kochen/ so setzt mans zu mit Wasser/ wol gesaltzen / wenns wol gesotten/ so zeucht man es auff ein Bret ausz/ vnd leszts kalt werden/ Mach ein guten Vngerischen Pfeffer mit Hennenschweisz/ der fein sa:eurlich ist/ Vnnd wenn der Pfeffer zugericht ist/ so thu das Fleisch darein/ so wirdt es gut vnd lieblich. Du kanst auch die Geil/ wie von einem Eynheimischen Pferdt zurichten/ wie vorhin vermeldet ist von der Bo:eck Geil [= Rumpolt p. XXVb, Nr. 16]. ******************************************************** Thomas Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:09:06 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Re: horse recipe 1581 nannar at isholf.is writes: << At least there is a recipe >for wild horse in the German cookbook of Marx Rumpolt 1581 [see: >http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_Rumpolt1.htm]. Gwen-Cat, Lord Ras and >myself had some discussion about this recipe in march. Very interesting, but would eating horsemeat not have been strictly prohibited at this time by the Church? >> Not really. The Reformation was well under way by this time in Germany. Think, Luther, Huss and many others. Ras Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 03:25:31 +0200 From: "ana l. valdes" Subject: Re: SC - Re: horse recipe 1581 and the tabou of the horseeating Thomas wrote: >Someone asked whether horsemeat was period. At least there is a recipe >for wild horse in the German cookbook of Marx Rumpolt 1581 [see: >http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_Rumpolt1.htm]. Gwen-Cat, Lord Ras and >myself had some discussion about this recipe in march. In my book, "Betes a Manger, Usages Alimentaires des Francais", it is a chapter about th evolution of the horseeating. "In the First Centuries of Christianity it was prohibited to eat horse. The "Feast of the Horse", a kind of heretical comunion, was practicated by the Asian barbars (mongols?). The Pope Gregorius III tells Boniface, the Evangelist of the Germans: "Tell them to don´t eat horses and impose severe punishments to who does it, because they are mean and evil." But in France the horse is eaten in regular basis, in stores called "chevalines". My book states the horse have a very important place in the construction of the warrior and the feodal society. Without horses no knights. Ana L. Valdés Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:32:00 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" Subject: Re: SC - Re: horse recipe 1581 >> Very interesting, but would eating horsemeat not have been strictly >> prohibited at this time by the Church? >> > >Not really. The Reformation was well under way by this time in Germany. >Think, Luther, Huss and many others. I know that, but Iceland was fully Lutherean by 1551, when the last Catholic bishop was beheaded, yet the Church prohibited the eating of horsemeat for at least 250 years after that. My information that the eating of horsemeat was strictly prohibited in France until 1811 comes from the Larousse Gastronomique. When the French began to eat it, it was sold in special stores (chevalines) by special horse-butchers to avoid suspicion that it was being passed off as beef. I´m really curious to know what the situation was in other countries. Was the eating of horsemeat actually prohibited by law or by the Church? Nanna Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:22:52 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: SC - Horse-eating in Yorkshire??? I don't seem to be able to find the question from the lady who wanted more information regarding my reference to the alleged pejorative for Yorkshiremen of "kicker-eater", so I'm playing it by ear here. I know I've seen this reference in more than one source, but I don't seem to be able to find anything more concrete than this at the moment-- I thought it'd be in Andre Simon's Concise Encyclopedia of Gastronomy, but apparently I was mistaken. In any case, here's what I've been able to find, after a very brief (brief being what I had time for) search: " In pre-Christian times, horsemeat eating in northern Europe figured prominently in Teutonic religious ceremonies, particularly those associated with the worship of the god Odin. So much so, in fact, that in A.D. 732 Pope Gregory III began a concerted effort to stop this pagan practice, and it has been said that the Icelandic people specifically were reluctant to embrace Christianity for some time largely over the issue of their giving up horsemeat. In Sweden these many years later, horsemeat still outsells lamb and mutton combined. " The Angles of England were among those peoples who regarded the horse as too holy an animal to eat routinely, reserving it for communion meals, and some believe that this prohibition has carried over into the strong prejudices in England today against eating horsemeat. It has, of course, been reinforced by the value of the animal for draft, transport, and military use, and these values are confusedly mixed with the religious (just as they have been in many countries also for cattle). The one area of England where horsemeat is at all commonly eaten today is Yorkshire. There it is called "kicker", and "kicker-eater" persists in the rest of England as a derogatory term for Yorkshireman." _Unmentionable Cuisine_, Calvin W. Schwabe, © 1979 Rector and Visitors of the University of Virginia, pub. 1979 and 1992, University Press of Virginia, ISBN 0-8139-1162-1 Now, this bit of documentation doesn't necessarily make the statements contained therein true, nor does anything preclude the possibility that the other sources I've seen for this information may have taken the information either from the same unnamed source, or from this book itself. But, reliable or not, the claim is made. Adamantius - -- Phil & Susan Troy Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 12:10:07 -0700 (MST) From: grasse at mscd.edu (Martina Grasse) Subject: SC - RE Digest 1934 Not for the faint hearted, but here is a link to a 1581 recipe for horse (translated from the German, but not re-created/redacted) http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_horse1.htm Gwen Catrin von Berlin Caerthe, Outlands Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] eating horses and cats, oh my Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 11:02:24 EST From: To: I have eaten horse meat. Several years ago in Lubbock when beef and pork was much higher in price than it is now, one of the grocery stores was selling horse meat. I found it less fat, and reminiscent of venison. It is delicious if prepared correctly. and that was before my sca days. not quite medieval tho. Innes From: Martina C Grasse Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:50:16 AM US/Central To: StefanliRous at austin.rr.com Subject: Horse recipe German the Rumpolt monger again. From my usual German 1581 source. [From Marx Rumpolt, Ein New Kochbuch ,c. 1581 - Stefan] http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_horse1.htm I kept it off list cause it is indeed a squeamish subject. Gwen Cat Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 17:15:20 -0400 From: "Phlip" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Another look at a Florilegium entry... To: "SCA-Cooks" , "SPCA" , Selene, Stefan, In the Florilegium, Selene has the following note posted: >>>> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:43:05 -0800 From: Susan Fox-Davis Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Society Equestrian Newsletter! (fwd) I really have to worry when the equestrian notices show up on the cooks' list. We just voted against use of horses for human consumption here in California. Okay, it's period. The Bayeaux Tapestry has a panel showing a cook leading several animals off to the rotisserie, and one of the food-beasts is clearly a horse. A fat little pony, clearly not a Knight's Charger. However... just because it's period, doesn't mean I want to eat it. Lady Selene Colfox, Caid not an equivore selene at earthlink.net <<<< That letter has just come up on the SCA-Equestrian List, in a discussion on the usage of horses in period, and several people are objecting to that interpretation, since the small horse/pony in question is apparently carrying a pack similar to the packs larger horses are carrying elsewhere on the tapestry. Think we want to look at that again (if we can find a picture of it) and reconsider our interpretations? I would tend to think, not having seen the picture, that if the poiny is loaded like that, it might not _be_ a foodstuff, but rather be _carrying_ a foodstuff, but I haven't seen that section yet, since I'm not into the Tapestry, that when/where, or fiber arts. Now, insofar as using horses for meat, I tend to be resistant as I would be for dogs or cats, but I know it's done, and I have actually tasted horse meat, but at the very least, we might want to put an addendum into the Florilegium, stating that that interpretation, at least in that particular case, is being contested. Anybody who wants to go look at the Florilegium, the entry is: http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-MEATS/horse-recipes-msg.html Saint Phlip, CoDoLDS Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 19:15:13 -0400 From: "Phlip" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fw: [SCA Equestrian] Re: minis in period To: "Cooks within the SCA" , > Here is the Bayeux Tapestry section in question- > Cecily http://hastings1066.com/bayeux22.shtml Thanks, Cecily- missed that first time througfh. OK, I agree with the equestrians. I think that it looks more like the pony is being used as a beast of burden, bringing foodstuffs to the fire, just like the bigger horse to the left with the rider, being followed by the servant farther left, with the beast on his shoulder, or the ones even further left, who appear to be chasing the cow with evil intent... Anybody else want to comment further? As a general rule, you don't work an animal you're about to slaughter. They usually can't be worked, for one reason or another-untrained, or injured. You certainly don't want to do anything to make them tougher, and that's one side effect of working them. Saint Phlip, CoDoLDS Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:44:18 -0700 From: "Patricia Collum" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another look at a Florilegium entry... To: , "Cooks within the SCA" Well, I spent some time going through Ann Hagan's Anglo-Saxon Food and Drink. It lists horse as a taboo food, likely to only be eaten in times of want or dearth, such as the time right after the battle of Hastings. Eating horses was also linked to pagan custom and discouraged by the church, as was the maiming of horses. It lists the part about German's being discouraged from their custom of eating horses, and that horses as food were also linked to Danish custom. Horses were considered too valuable even from a political and tactical standpoint to be used as food unless no other source of food was available. Cecily Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 19:51:39 -0700 From: Susan Fox-Davis Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: [spca-wascaerfrig] Another look at a Florilegiumentry... To: , SCA-Cooks I stand by my original statement. Whilst small pack-ponies are present in other frames of the Bayeux Tapestry, this one appears to have a different, um, destiny. Here is a picture of the panel: http://hastings1066.com/bayeux22.shtml _HIC EST WADARD. HIC COQUITOR CARO. ET HIC MINISTRAVERUNT MINISTRI._ [Here is Wadard. Her meat is cooked. And here the servants serve the food.] Here is one man with an ax over his head, about to address the weapon to a large and a small beeve. Also, another man with an ax over his shoulder, leading a small pony. Yes, there is a basket n his back, but that ax really looks to me like it_s about to be used. I feel that this is clearly destined for the dinner table. I no more relish the notion of eating the noble Horse than most other modern North Americans, but I try to keep my own cutural orientation out of my interpretations of historical chronicles like these. Dame Selene Colfox, still in Cai selene at earthlink.net From: To: Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 10:38 PM Subject: [SCA Equestrian] Re: Another look at a Florilegium entry... > Sorry, I wasn't objecting to the idea of people eating horses in > period. > > I was objecting to the idea that that particular pack animal/pony was about > be slaughtered. It is being led away from the fire, and is working since it > has the pack saddle on. The packs even look like they are bulging at the > bottom, so I think the packs are full. Thus, to me, it appears the pony/horse > is working. > > I thought the small ax was a favorite war weapon that wasn't as expensive as > a sword, and thus it was appropriate to be carried by many of the men/warriors > in the Bayeux tapestry. But if the ax is the symbol of a cook/butcher, then > the Normans sure brought a lot of cooks with them to England..... But I am > not a weapons expert, nor am I an expert on the Bayeux Tapestery. > > Rachel from Barony Bhakail Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:05:40 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another look at a Florilegium entry... To: Cooks within the SCA I just checked an article I remembered on this topic from "Medieval Food and Drink" series of essays published by the Center for Early Renaissance Studies at Binghampton University of the University of New York. The article, entitled "Eating and Drinking in the Bayeux Tapestry" by Rouben Cholakian, is a discussion of all of the scenes in the tapestry that deal with food and drink. In the part of the essay where this specific panel is discussed, he describes the bovines and the pig being taken to slaughter, mentioning that they seem to be headed in the wrong direction. He makes no mention of the pony being slaughtered as well. In fact he totally ignores the presence of the animal, with its handler, at all. I have to admit I had always thought that it was carrying stuff in the paniers over its back...rather than being slaughtered to be part of the feast...but that could be a deduction that I made based on not being used to seeing horsemeat used as part of a meal. Kiri From: "Lisa M LeChatton" To: Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 6:36 PM Subject: RE: [SCA Equestrin] Re: Fw: Re: [spca-wascaerfrig] Another look at a... > One would expect someone from the Cooks List to know about St Gregory III > [731-741]. As Pope, he banned the eating of horse-meat in 732 AD. Eating > (and using the more interesting bits and pieces for display) of the horse has > been documented as part of Celt and Egyptian pagan celebrations. The Papal > decree was not eased until 1866, when Europe was starving. The ban on eating > horseflesh is considered one of the reasons that the Icelanders took so long > to convert - those good Vikings knew hard winters and thought it was a > wasteful law. > > Since the horse does have a pack saddle on - pack animal would be its use. > Very smart too, he's just the right size for kitchen help. > Aimee LongCoeur Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 16:28:59 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fw: [SCA Equestrian] Re: Fw: Re: [spca-wascaerfrig]Another look at a... To: "Cooks within the SCA" > One would expect someone from the Cooks List to know about St Gregory III > [731-741]. As Pope, he banned the eating of horse-meat in 732 AD. Eating > (and using the more interesting bits and pieces for display)of the horse has > been documented as part of Celt and Egyptian pagan celebrations. > > Aimee LongCoeur As an interesting aside, I have recently seen a scholarly suggestion that the ban had the effect of increasing the horse population leading to greater use of mounted infantry (Charles the Bald ordered that those who could afford it send mounted levies) and finally to the knight, a convergence between religion (the Papal ban), politics (the need for faster moving troops to control more real estate) and technology (the iron stirrup). Bear Edited by Mark S. Harris horse-recipes-msg 15