frogs-msg - 4/29/06 Period frog recipes. Medieval thoughts about frogs. NOTE: See also the files: exotic-meats-msg, eels-msg, food-sources-msg, fish-msg, seafood-msg, birds-recipes-msg, snails-msg,fish-pies-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 23:02:47 -0400 From: Ceridwen Subject: Re: SC - Period frog recipes? > I haven't look yet in the few books I have, but are there any period > recipes for frog's legs? Check Le Menagier. I think there's one ... toward the end somewhere. Ceridwen Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 00:16:52 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: SC - Period frog recipes? > I haven't look yet in the few books I have, but are there any period recipes > for frog's legs? How about whole frogs? > > Stefan li Rous I'm aware of references to frogs as food in Le Menagier de Paris, and in Platina's De Honesta Voluptate. The former, IIRC, gives instructions on gigging for frogs, but gives no recipe, as far as I recall, while the latter talks about the medical aspects of eating them, and also, IIRC, gives no recipe. Adamantius Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 23:44:40 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - period frog recipes? At 12:39 AM -0600 12/8/00, Stefan li Rous wrote: >We did have a discussion a while back about period frog leg recipes, but >while they were apparently mentioned in two books, no one was able to >give any period recipes for them. > >> I'm aware of references to frogs as food in Le Menagier de Paris, and in >> Platina's De Honesta Voluptate. The former, IIRC, gives instructions on >> gigging for frogs, but gives no recipe, as far as I recall, while the >> latter talks about the medical aspects of eating them, and also, IIRC, >> gives no recipe. >> >> Adamantius > >This is from my exotic-meats-msg file. Does anyone have any actual period >recipes for frog or frog legs? Thomas? Yes--Le Menagier. FROGS. To take them, have a line and a hook and bait of meat or red cloth, and having taken the frogs, cut them across the body near the thighs and empty out what is near the back end, and take the two thighs of these same frogs, cut off the feet, and skin the thighs raw, then have cold water and wash them; and if the thighs stay overnight in cold water, they will be better and more tender. And after thus rinsing them, they should be washed in warm water, then take and dry in a cloth; the thighs, thus washed and dried, should be rolled in flour, that is floured, and then fried in oil, fat or other liquid, and put in a bowl and powdered spices on them. - -- David/Cariadoc http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 08:33:06 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - period frog recipes? david friedman wrote: > >This is from my exotic-meats-msg file. Does anyone have any actual period > >recipes for frog or frog legs? Thomas? > > Yes--Le Menagier. > > FROGS. To take them, have a line and a hook and bait of meat or red > cloth, and having taken the frogs, cut them across the body near the > thighs and empty out what is near the back end, and take the two > thighs of these same frogs, cut off the feet, and skin the thighs > raw, then have cold water and wash them; and if the thighs stay > overnight in cold water, they will be better and more tender. And > after thus rinsing them, they should be washed in warm water, then > take and dry in a cloth; the thighs, thus washed and dried, should be > rolled in flour, that is floured, and then fried in oil, fat or other > liquid, and put in a bowl and powdered spices on them. Sorry, the Powers translation leaves out the recipe, IIRC, and just mentions the part about catching them with a red rag. Which is peculiar since I suspect, worldwide, more people are interested in eating frog's legs than are interested in catching them, butchering them, and eating them. BTW, for those who haven't tried them, for frog's legs The Official Wisdom is Mediterranean, seasoned, floured and fried (or sauteed) legs being the basis for a number of dishes, all the best of which seem also to call for olive oil, garlic, parsley and tomato. Maybe a caper or two. My mother-in-law does add them to soup (primarily poultry-based), but I wouldn't recommend that as a starting point for the non-initiate. They're pretty easy to find frozen in three-or-five-pound boxes, like shrimp, at a good Asian market (a lot of frog's legs are imported from Indonesia, apparently), or you may be able to order them in your fish market. Adamantius Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:16:20 -0800 From: "E. Rain" Subject: RE: SC - period frog recipes? Ok first, Eww! The French will eat just anything disgusting which is very confusing when they also produce some of the greatest food in the world... And more relevantly, assuming your definition of Period stretches that far LaVarenne has a recipe: from the 1654 English translation Tourte of Frogs pass the great legs in the pan with good butter very fresh, mushrooms, parsley, hartichoks sod and cut, and capers, all well seasoned, put it into a sheet of fine or puft paste, and bake it; afer it is baked, serve it oncovered with a white sauce. He also has a recipe for sea otter for which not even Sauce Bob can make me forgive him ;-> Eden Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:56:31 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - period frog recipes? Stefan li Rous wrote: > Okay, anyone know what this hartichoks sod is? I would assume artichokes > but is this a particular part? And what is "sod"? Is this a part of the > artichoke? Or is this something you do to the artichoke along with cutting > it? Sodden. A grammatical variant. Boiled artichokes, presumably the hearts. Adamantius Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 17:45:51 +0100 From: TG Subject: SC - period frog recipes Apart from the recipes in the Menagier de Paris (II.v-256) and Platina (IX.41), there are some German frog recipes: five recipes in Rumpolt (1581) and eleven in Franz de Rontzier's "Kunstbuch von mancherley Essen" (1598). In addition, there is a picture in the Richental-chronicle (15th century): on the table of a fish seller, there are also seven frogs and a guy with a basket just coming to bring new ones. Conrad Gessner, in his book of animals (1563) says: "DJe gr¸nen frˆschen kommend bey dem menschen auch in die speys/ die hinderen theil auff all weyfl vnd w‰g bereitet/ insonderheit aber mit m‰l besprengt vnd gebachen" (fol. 168a 'the green frogs also serve as food, the back parts prepared in all kinds and manners, especially sprinkled with flour and baked/ fried'). Here are the Rumpolt recipes: Von Fro:eschen seind fu:enfferley Speifl vnd Trachten zu machen. I. GEbackene Fro:esch/ saltzs/ pfeffers vnnd mehls eyn/ backs aufl heisser Butter/ dafl sie fein resch seyn/ gib sie warm auff den Tisch/ vnnd bestra:ew sie mit Jngwer. Wiltu aber ein saure Bru:eh daru:eber geben/ so nim{b} Agrastwasser mit den Beeren/ nim{b} auch Butter darein/ vnnd ein wenig Pfeffer/ lafl darmit auffsieden/ vn{d} geufl es vber die Gebackene Fro:esch/ so wirt es gut vnd wolgeschmack. Vnnd wenn du die Fro:esch wilt zurichten/ so zeuch die Haut darvon hinweg/ nim{b} das Hindertheil/ vnd quells in heissem Wasser/ saltz vnnd pfeffers/ vnnd lafl ein weil darinnen ligen/ so zeucht es viel Wasser daraufl/ darnach kanstu es zum backen oder zum eynmachen nemmen. 2. Nim{b} Fro:esch/ die sauber gequellt seyn/ geufl Agrastwasser daru:eber/ vnd gestossenen Pfeffer/ auch frische vnzerlassene Butter/ lafl darmit resch eynsieden/ vnnd wenn du schier wirst anrichten/ so wirff etliche Agrastbeer darein/ vnd lafl damit ein Sudt auffthun/ so ist es gut vnd wolgeschmack. 3. Gefricusierte Fro:esch mit Agrastbeer vn{d} Wasser/ damit angemacht/ wenn sie gefricusiert seyn/ vnd wol gepeffert/ vnd nicht viel gesaltzen. 4. Du kanst auch wol eynmachen mit Agrastbru:eh in Pasteten/ die vo{n} weissem Teig auffgetrieben/ so werden sie gut vnd wolgeschmack. 5. Fro:esch gekocht schwartz mit Karpffenschweifl/ seind gut vnd wolgeschmack. More on de Rontzier later, Thomas Menagier (ed. Brereton/Ferrier) II.v-256. Renoulles. Pour les prendre aiez une lingne et ung ameÁon avec esche de char ou d'un drap vermeil. Et icelles renoulles prises, couppez les a travers parmy le corps empres les cuisses et vuydiez ce qu'il y sera empres le cul. Et prenez desdictes renoulles les .ii. cuisses, couppez les piez [[160b]] et lesdictes cuisses pelez toutes crues. Puiz ayez eaue froide et les lavez: et se les cuisses demeurent une nuyt en eaue froide, de tant sont elles meilleurs et plus tendres. Et ainsi trempees soient lavees en eaue tiede puis mises et essuiees en une touaille. Lesdictes cuisses ainsi lavees et essuictes soient en farine toullees (id est enfarinees) et puis frictes en huile, sain ou autre liqueur; et soient mises en une escuelle et de la pouldre dessus. Platina from IX.41 (tr. Milham) "[...] We let the legs of those which are captured be stripped of skin and soaked a night or a day in fresh water. Then when they have been rolled in meal, we fry them in oil. When they are fried and put in a dish, my friend Palellus covers them with green sauce and sprinkles them with fennel flowers and spices". Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 18:52:31 -0500 From: harper at idt.net Subject: Re: SC - period frog recipes? And it came to pass on 8 Dec 00, , that Philip & Susan Troy wrote: > BTW, for those who haven't tried them, for frog's legs The Official > Wisdom is Mediterranean, seasoned, floured and fried (or sauteed) legs > being the basis for a number of dishes, all the best of which seem also > to call for olive oil, garlic, parsley and tomato. Maybe a caper or two. Leave out the tomato, and that's how Granado suggests cooking them. They can then be served with ajada or nogada (garlic sauces, based on almonds and walnuts, respectively). He also has a recipe for a frog pottage, and for a pie of boneless frog legs, topped with ajada. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 01:57:42 +0100 From: TG Subject: SC - period frog recipes Here are the seven plus four recipes from Frantz de Rontzier's "Kunstbuch Von mancherley Essen" (1598), including the titlepage of the book. For those of you who do not read German I should like to translate at least the last sentence of the second section: 'This way you can serve them to somebody, who does not like to eat them: s/he will not be aware of it'. Th. <> Kunstbuch Von mancherley Essen/ Gesotten/ Gebraten/ Posteten/ von Hirschen/ Vogelen/ Wildtprat/ vnd andern Schawessen/ so auff Fu:erstlichen/ vnd andern Pancketen zuzurichten geho:erich: Gestelt. durch Den Erbarn vnd Wolerfahren Meister Frantz de Rontzier/ Fu:erstlichen Braunschweigischen bestalten Mundtkoch. Dergleichen biflhero in druck nicht gesehen. Jn der Fu:erstlichen Druckerey zu Wollffenbu:ettel/ Anno/ 1598. (...) <<347>> (...) Von Froschen. Die Fro:eschen so in den Wessern sein sindt allein gut zu essen/ die ander aber <<348>> du:egen nicht allein das hintervirtel welchen man die haut abzihen sol/ etc. 1. JTem/ man verwellet sie in Wasser/ bemehlet vnnd beckt sie in zerschmoltzen Buttern/ treufft Pommerantzensafft daru:eber/ besprengt sie mit Saltz vnd Pfeffer/ vnd gibts zu tisch. 2. Man vermischet Saltz/ Pfeffer vnnd Mehl/ bemehlet sie damit vnnd beckt sie in Buttern/ wirfft Petersilgen wenn sie baldt gahr sein darein/ besprenget sie mit Saltz vnd gibt sie zu tisch. 3. Man verwellet vnnd schneidet sie klein/ thut sie in einen Topff mit Wein/ macht sie ab mit Epffeln in wu:erffel geschnitten/ kleinen Rosin/ zerstossen Pfeffer/ Jngber vnd Butter/ lest sie gahr werden/ etc. 4. Jtem/ man verwellet vnnd macht sie ab mit Wein/ zerrieben Brodt/ grossem Rosin/ Saffrahn/ Jngber vnd Zucker/ etc. 5. Jtem/ man macht sie ab mit zerstossen mandelen/ Wein/ Zucker vnnd Pfeffer/ bestrewet sie mit Zucker wenn man sie wil zu tisch geben. 6. Jtem/ man macht sie ab mit zerhacktem Speck vnd Petersilgen/ frischer Butter/ Eyerdottern vnd ein wenig bru:eh/ lest sie gahr werden vnd bestrewet sie mit Saltz wenn man sie wil zu tisch geben. <<349>> 7. Jtem/ man macht sie ab mit Eyerdottern/ Wein/ Muscatenblumen vnd frischer Butter/ etc. Klein essen von Schnecken vnd froschen zu machen. I. MAN hackt sie mit Speck oder anderem Feiste/ fu:ellets in Schweinderme vnnd macht Wu:erste dauon/ oder man schlegt sie in ein Hamelsnetz/ kan sie darnach kochen oder braten. 2. Man kan sie auch hacken vnnd backen sie in einem Eyerkuchen/ etc. 3. Man fu:ellet sie auch wol in Hu:ener oder Tauben/ zuuor aber den Kopf vnd Fu:eesse abgeschnitten. 4. Man hackt sie vnd macht kleine Klu:empffe dauon/ kocht sie vnd legt Veldhu:ener Fu:eesse oder Bru:este darauff wenn man sie wil zum tisch geben. So kan man sie einem/ der sie nicht gerne essen wil vnuermerckt bey bringen. From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:40:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] frogs On 21 Jan 2002, at 23:49, Stefan li Rous wrote: > Brighid said: > > On 21 Jan 2002, at 14:30, Gretchen Beck wrote: > > > You mean it isn't Frog Legs pie? ;-) > > > > > > toodles, margaret > > > > No, that's Pastel de Ranas. > > Is this a period dish? And is this really a frog or frog leg pie? Yes, and yes. There are several recipes for frog legs in Granado, including a couple of pies. One is for frog legs with the bone, and the other for the boneless meat. The other pie ingredients are the Usual Suspects for the time and place -- raisins, onions, chopped herbs, verjuice, etc. Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:05:09 -0400 From: Patrick Levesque Subject: [Sca-cooks] Frog legs To: "Cooks within the SCA " Platina (or Martino, or whomever it was taken from) is right! They are good with green sauce! (this particular green sauce being vinegar, thyme, mint, marjoram and parsley... Oh, and garlic too) I'll need to work on a better batter for presentation, though, but that shouldn't be too hard... I just rolled them in flour tonight. It's palatable, but nothing exciting. Petru Working on a feast menu (it's beginning to show, I guess...) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 07:26:11 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Frogs' legs query To: Cooks within the SCA On Sep 8, 2005, at 4:57 AM, Christina Nevin wrote: > I just acquired a kilo of frogs' legs and was wondering if anyone > has a good tried and true recipe for them. As Mordonna states, it's hard to go wrong flouring and frying them. There are modern Chinese recipes that call for them to be fried and then served with a sauce, such as sweet-and-sour sauce made with pickled ginger, etc., but probably the best way to serve them that I've found is in Calvin Schwabe's "Unmentionable Cuisine", in which he speaks of (as usual, without giving too much detail, since few people will actually cook some of the things he's writing about) an Iraqi method where the legs are marinated for several hours in olive oil with plenty of crushed garlic, salt and pepper, then grilled and garnished with chopped parsley. My mother-in-law puts them in soup . > And just to keep it on topic - has anyone ever seen mention of > these in period? (I can't remember if they're mentioned in the > Cloud Forest) Or is it a modern European thing? IIRC, Le Menagier tells us how to catch frogs (I think you dapple for them like trout on a short pole, with a line baited with a shred of red rag), but gives no recipes or indication of whether any part other than the legs are eaten. Adamantius Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 07:45:14 -0400 From: Patrick Levesque Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Frogs' legs query To: "Cooks within the SCA " Fry them, as mentioned previously. Serve with garlic butter, or, as Platina recommends, with a green sauce (I served them at a feast last March) Petru Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 07:58:23 -0400 From: "Denise Wolff" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Frogs' legs query To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From Platina: On Right Pleasure and Good Health Book IX #41 De Ranis "We let the legs of those which are captured be stripped of skin and soaked a night or a day in fresh water. Then when they have been rolled in a meal, we fry them in oil. When they are fried and put in a dish, my friend Palellus covers them with green sauce and sprinkles them with fennel flowersband spices. Andrea MacIntyre Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 07:20:12 -0400 From: Patrick Levesque Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Frogs' legs query To: "Cooks within the SCA " > Petru - I'll root out the recipe for green sauce and try it. How > were they received at your feast? They all marched out valiantly to meet their fate - alas, none came back :-))) So I'd say they were pretty well received :-) This said, here are the 2 recipes for Platina, you won't have to look For them too long: ... »We let the legs of those which are captured be stripped of skin and soaked a night or day in fresh water. Then when they have been rolled in meal, we fry them in oil. When they are fried and put in a dish, my friend Palellus covers them with green sauce and sprinkles them with fennel flowers and spices... Green Sauce (Platina, Book VII #6) Grind together a little parsley, thyme, chard or other fragrant herbs, a moderate amound of ginger, also of cinnamon, and a bit of salt. When they are ground, soak in sharp vinegar, and pass through a sieve into a bowl. If garlic pleases you, add more or less according to taste. (P.S. Add garlic! Lots of it!!!) Petru Edited by Mark S. Harris frogs-msg 9 of 9