persimmons-msg - 1/22/11

Eating persimmons. Recipes. Where were they grown in the Old World. Differences between the Old and New World varieties.

NOTE: See also these files: fruits-msg, raw-fruit-vg-msg, Period-Fruit-art, plums-msg, figs-msg, bananas-msg, berries-msg, pomegranates-msg, elderberries-msg, grapes-msg.

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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

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Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 07:14:22 -0500
From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmon

Persimmons are only good when they are completely ripe...if they are even a
little bit on the green side, they will turn your mouth inside out.

Can't recall seeing them in regular markets, though they may show up
seasonally in specialty markets...and they are part of Japanese and Chinese
cookery. This web site <http://www.tonytantillo.com/fruits/persimmons.html>has
a lot of good information and modern recipes can be found on the FoodTV web
site.

Kiri

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 2:07 AM, Stefan li Rous
<StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>wrote:

I was reading over some of my unread digests and Shoshanna(?) (Susan Lin)
said:
<<< What about persimmon?  I for one had a horrible reaction (I'd say allergic
reaction but I've been told I'm not allowed to say allergic unless I've been
diagnosed as such) to eating one once but is it possible it was a persimmon
and not an apple or a quince.  >>>

Does anyone have any period recipes that actually call for persimmons? I
think of those mainly as an ornamental yard bush. I did do a search in the
Florilegium and all I have there is passing comments when talking about
other fruits. Definitely no recipes or mentions on SCA feast menus.

Has anyone else eaten one of these? What was your impression of them?
Better than Shoshanna's?

Are they available in the grocery stores? I don't think I've seen them for
sale, but then that may be a regional thing if folks do find them edible.

I did see fresh quinces several weeks ago (at Central Market) and
considered buying one to try it. But at $1 each, I didn't want to buy
several w/o a recipe and wasn't sure if I could eat it raw just to try one.
But at that price, no wonder folks have said it was cheaper to buy the
pre-made quince paste than to make it yourself. Which is what I did for my
recent Nobles Luncheon.

Thanks,
Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra


Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 07:26:24 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmon

The persimmon (Diospyros virginiana) that grows in the Midwest is  
native to the US.

http://tinyurl.com/yzr6mfr

or see this site
http://www.persimmonpudding.com/recipes/other.html

I don't know that they imported that native variety to the Old World  
or if they did, it would have been well past 1600.

We used to go gather persimmons in the fall and make them into a  
persimmon pudding. I gather you can buy them in Indiana grocery stores  
i the fall but it's a very local product. You can order it in cans and  
use that to make the cakes or puddings.

I have no experience with the oriental or Fuyu persimmon. It actually  
shows up in markets and produce sections and I've seen it in Ann Arbor.
http://www.plantanswers.com/garden_column/jan04/3.htm

Johnnae

On Nov 5, 2009, at 2:07 AM, Stefan li Rous wrote:
<<< Does anyone have any period recipes that actually call for  
persimmons? I think of those mainly as an ornamental yard bush. I  
did do a search in the Florilegium and all I have there is passing  
comments when talking about other fruits. Definitely no recipes or  
mentions on SCA feast menus.

Has anyone else eaten one of these? What was your impression of them? >>>


Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:37:10 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmon

http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/species/divi5.htm
for native

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/ext/senior/fruits/persimmon1.htm

These look like the oriental ones to me.

Johnnae

On Nov 5, 2009, at 2:59 PM, otsisto wrote:
<<< My local Gerbs is carrying them. How do you know their ripe? The ones G
carries is firm like a sweet pepper and orange in color.
They looks like this
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2383/1843611393_3d92ffb73f.jpg
How do you tell the difference between European and American  
Persimmons?
De >>>


Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:43:42 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmon

I came across a mention of this when looking at sites earlier-

"The vast majority of people eat persimmons without problem.  In very  
rare cases, persimmons have been known to contribute to the formation  
of diospyrobezoars in some people.  If you have had previous gastric  
surgery, or any form of gastric impairment, you are encouraged to  
consult with your physician before eating large quantities of  
persimmons."

This is very rare but there are cases reported of "severe abdominal  
cramping, anusea, vomiting, and pyrexia" associated with eating  
persimmons.

This leads to articles like "Huge gastric diospyrobezoars successfully  
treated by oral intake and endoscopic injection of Coca-Cola."

No kidding.

Johnnae

On Nov 5, 2009, at 4:42 PM, Susan Lin wrote:
<<< I tried a bite of one - the squat darker kind not the more "acorn" shaped
one.  My mouth immediately dried up and my tongue felt 3 times its size.  It
was alarming.  My father-in-law said it might be a reaction because I had
had a sip of red wine and sometimes they don't mix but it has kept me from
trying persimmon until last month when I cautiously took a bite and  
had no reaction.

I'm still leary of them and prefer to stay away from them but at  
least now I don't think I'm going to die if I eat a piece.
Shoshanna >>>


Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 12:59:24 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmon

<S> I was reading over some of my unread digests and Shoshanna(?) (Susan 
Lin) said:
<<< What about persimmon?  I for one had a horrible reaction (I'd say allergic
reaction but I've been told I'm not allowed to say allergic unless I've been
diagnosed as such) to eating one once but is it possible it was a persimmon
and not an apple or a quince.  >>>

Does anyone have any period recipes that actually call for persimmons? <S>

As best I can determine, there are two broad classes of persimmons. 
One is New World, the other is east asian and doesn't seem to have 
been known in the west until long after our period.

<S> I think of those mainly as an ornamental yard bush. I did do a 
search in the Florilegium and all I have there is passing comments 
when talking about other fruits. Definitely no recipes or mentions 
on SCA feast menus.

Has anyone else eaten one of these? What was your impression of 
them? Better than Shoshanna's? <S>

I'm very fond of persimmons; we have about ten downstairs at the 
moment ripening. I also have a tree, although it hasn't born any 
fruit as yet--the ten were from someone at Betty's church who has a 
tree. They do have to be thoroughly ripe, and are strikingly 
astringent if not. Depending on the variety, a ripe persimmons 
somewhere between soft and pulpy--i.e. always softer than an apple, 
sometimes as soft as a very ripe tomato.

<S> Are they available in the grocery stores? I don't think I've seen 
them for sale, but then that may be a regional thing if folks do 
find them edible. <S>

Several different varieties are available in grocery stores here.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com


Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:20:46 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmon

<<< I have an interesting story about what were served in Australia as
'Japanese' persimmons, as opposed to the regular kind normally
available in Australia.

To my father, the 'Japanese" persimmons tasted unripe.  The owner
of the restaurant, when summoned, tasted them and pronounced them
perfectly ripe. >>>

I believe there are at least two different sorts of oriental 
persimmons--whether one is called "Japanese" I don't know. One of 
them is relatively firm when ripe, although not nearly as firm as an 
apple. The other is considerably softer when ripe.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com


Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:26:54 -0500
From: debbie pond <pursey42 at hotmail.com>
To: sca cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmons

<<< Does anyone have any period recipes that actually call for persimmons?  
I think of those mainly as an ornamental yard bush. I did do a search  
in the Florilegium and all I have there is passing comments when  
talking about other fruits. Definitely no recipes or mentions on SCA  
feast menus.

Has anyone else eaten one of these? What was your impression of them?  
Better than Shoshanna's? >>>

http://www.marthastewart.com/recipe/broiled-persimmons-with-mascarpone?autonomy_kw=persimmon1

While this is not period, I saw this recipe for broiled persimmons on the Martha Stewart Show the other day.  She said that while it is possible to eat them raw, that they have a somewhat gritty texture in that form.  I have not tried this recipe, but plan to if I come across some persimmons at the market today.

Yamina


Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 12:25:15 -0500
From: Audrey Bergeron-Morin <audreybmorin at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmons

Oh, THOSE! I didn't get what you were talking about until I looked at the
Wikipedia article.

Well, we always eat the Japanese kind raw. They call them Kakis around here
and they're available in grocery stores sometimes during the year, along
with other exotic fruit.

I've never come across the other kind. The shape seems different (as per
Wikipedia illustration, which may also be wrong), more pointy for the
Japanese persimmon.

You have to wait until they're very mushy, wrinkled and getting on the
brownish side of things, that is, until us North-Americans would think
they've gone bad, until they're sweet enough to eat raw. But then, wow,
they're so good! Very sweet, with a lingering effect in the mouth like
honey. We just cut them in half and scrape away with a spoon, usually.


On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 10:26 AM, debbie pond <pursey42 at hotmail.com> wrote:
<<< http://www.marthastewart.com/recipe/broiled-persimmons-with-mascarpone?autonomy_kw=persimmon1

While this is not period, I saw this recipe for broiled persimmons on the
Martha Stewart Show the other day.  She said that while it is possible to
eat them raw, that they have a somewhat gritty texture in that form.  I have
not tried this recipe, but plan to if I come across some persimmons at the
market today.

Yamina >>>


Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 15:14:41 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmons

On Sep 8, 2010, at 2:33 PM, CHARLES POTTER wrote:
<<< There are several species that are period and some that are New  
World, I don't think there are very many period recipes for there use
other than eating them fresh.

                                  Master B >>>

There are of course two types and that might weigh in on the discussion too.

The Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America notes
Diospyros virginiana, native to the American states south of a line  
from Connecticut to Kansas.
(We used to harvest them in rural Illinois and we still have family  
recipes for them. They still gather, can, and sell the pulp in parts  
of Indiana.)

and

D. kaki, indigenous to China which has supplanted commercially the  
native fruit found previously in the American wild.

"There is the tomato-shaped Fuyu (the common name for several similar  
varieties), eaten crunchy-hard like an apple, and the acorn-shaped  
Hachiya, which like the native American species is edible only when  
soft and gelatinous. Both turn bright red-orange when ripe and are  
honey-sweet, with mild pumpkinyflavor. The season runs from late  
September through December . Fuyus are chiefly consumed as fresh  
fruits; Hachiyas can be eaten fresh, with a spoon, but are mostly used  
in puddings, ice creams, breads, and cookies.

The cultivation of Asian persimmons, chiefly in central and southern  
California, began with the importation of grafted trees from Japan in  
the 1870s..."

The question would be if you are using persimmons in an SCA cookery  
contest, are you using the Asian variety and a period Asian recipe or  
are you attempting to sub in the Asian fruits for what was a native  
American fruit found on the East coast by original colonists? Does the  
entrant even know the difference?
---
A related problem would be what the entrant was calling the fruit.
Searching for them in 17th century texts proves to be problematic  
because they weren't called persimmons. That comes from Algonquian and  
OED explains it as
"<Virginia Algonquian pichamins, pushemins (with the plural ending -ar  
(with voiceless consonant) written as English -s); compare Unami  
Delaware x??mi?n (< *px??mi?n) < a more southerly Eastern Algonquian  
language."

As Mistress Huette mentioned John Smith did encounter and write about  
them. His is one of the early OED quotations in English.

1612 J. SMITH Map of Virginia 12 The fruit like medlers; they call  
Putchamins, they cast vppon hurdles on a mat, and preserue them as  
Pruines.

  c1612 W. STRACHEY Hist. Trav. Virginia (1953) I. x. 120 They haue a  
Plomb which they call Pessemmins like to a Meddeler in England, but of  
a deepe tawny cullour.

  1629 J. PARKINSON Paradisi in Sole III. x. 570 The third [Lotus] is  
called in Virginia Pishamin. The Virginia Plumme.

1626 in Amer. Speech 15 294/2 Extending Southerly..towards the  
pursimond ponds.

and finally here where the spelling is more recognizable--

  1635 Relation of Maryland 18 Also there are divers sorts of Fruit- 
trees, as Mulberries, Persimmons, with severall other kinds of Plums.

I'll play aound with these quotations from OED, especially this one -

"1629 J. PARKINSON Paradisi in Sole III. xiii. 578 The *Pishamin or  
Virginia plum is called a plum, but vtterly differeth from all sorts  
of plums"

and see what else I can find in terms of actual early recipes.

Johnnae


Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 13:30:58 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmons

As far as I can tell, the old world persimmons are native to the far 
east. The word "persimmon" comes from an Indian language.

Is there any evidence that any sort of persimmon was known in Europe 
prior to the discovery of the American persimmon? It seems to have 
been a novelty when described by Capt. John Smith in 1607.


Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:07:20 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmons

And I think it remained a novelty at least in Britain. I didn't find  
it mentioned in EEBO and the OED quotations are sparse, to say the  
least.

I own the Dover facsimile edition of Parkinson's 1629 Paradisi in Sole. In it he comments that he has never tasted the fresh fruit because the tree, the Virginia Pishamin, the Virginia Plumme, "hath growne with us of the kernels that were sent out of Virginia, into great trees... It hath not yet borne flower or fruit in our Countrey that I can understand : but the fruit, as it was sent to us, is in forme and bigness like unto a Date, covered with a blackish skinne, set in a huske of foure hard leaves, very firme like unto a date, and almost as sweete, with great flat and thicke kernels within them, very like unto the former, but larger.

The Use of these Lote trees.

the last , as Captain Smith relateth in the discovery of Virginia, if  
the fruit be eaten while it is greene, and not ripe, is able by the  
harsh and binding taste and quality to draw ones mouth awry... but  
when it is thorough ripe it is pleasant, as I have said before." page  
570

So in 1629 he was still relaying upon Smith's description about the  
unripe fruits. He does include an illustration in one of the plates.

Johnnae

On Sep 8, 2010, at 4:30 PM, David Friedman wrote:
<<< As far as I can tell, the old world persimmons are native to the far  
east. The word "persimmon" comes from an Indian language.
Is there any evidence that any sort of persimmon was known in Europe  
prior to the discovery of the American persimmon? It seems to have  
been a novelty when described by Capt. John Smith in 1607. >>>


Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 01:19:44 -0400
From: Sam Wallace <guillaumedep at gmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmons

 "Who the #$$% would come up with *persimmons*  as a surprise 
ingredient in such a contest! You probably can't even find a single 
period recipe, much less find some for food use! What a dumb idea!"

Well, it would make for quite a surprise! I used them in the first feast 
I did, which included a number of selections from A Soup for the Qan. 
Really, it only gives two bits of advice concerning this fruit:

Persimmons should not be eaten with crab.

Persimmons are sweetish in flavor, cooling, and lack poison. They cause 
ear and nose ch'i to pass, and supplement for hsu-lao, bloody stool 
insufficiency. They make the stomach ample.

Guillaume

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	persimmons-msg	Page 9 of 9