persimmons-msg

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persimmons-msg - 1/22/11

Eating persimmons. Recipes. Where were they grown in the Old World. Differences between the Old and New World varieties.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

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Thank you,

Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous

Stefan at florilegium.org

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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 07:14:22 -0500

From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmon

Persimmons are only good when they are completely ripe...if they are even a

little bit on the green side, they will turn your mouth inside out.

Can't recall seeing them in regular markets, though they may show up

seasonally in specialty markets...and they are part of Japanese and Chinese

cookery. This web site <http://www.tonytantillo.com/fruits/persimmons.html>;has

a lot of good information and modern recipes can be found on the FoodTV web

site.

Kiri

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 2:07 AM, Stefan li Rous

<StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>wrote:

I was reading over some of my unread digests and Shoshanna(?) (Susan Lin)

said:

<<< What about persimmon? I for one had a horrible reaction (I'd say allergic

reaction but I've been told I'm not allowed to say allergic unless I've been

diagnosed as such) to eating one once but is it possible it was a persimmon

and not an apple or a quince. >>>

Does anyone have any period recipes that actually call for persimmons? I

think of those mainly as an ornamental yard bush. I did do a search in the

Florilegium and all I have there is passing comments when talking about

other fruits. Definitely no recipes or mentions on SCA feast menus.

Has anyone else eaten one of these? What was your impression of them?

Better than Shoshanna's?

Are they available in the grocery stores? I don't think I've seen them for

sale, but then that may be a regional thing if folks do find them edible.

I did see fresh quinces several weeks ago (at Central Market) and

considered buying one to try it. But at $1 each, I didn't want to buy

several w/o a recipe and wasn't sure if I could eat it raw just to try one.

But at that price, no wonder folks have said it was cheaper to buy the

pre-made quince paste than to make it yourself. Which is what I did for my

recent Nobles Luncheon.

Thanks,

Stefan

--------

THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra

Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 07:26:24 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmon

The persimmon (Diospyros virginiana) that grows in the Midwest is

native to the US.

http://tinyurl.com/yzr6mfr

or see this site

http://www.persimmonpudding.com/recipes/other.html

I don't know that they imported that native variety to the Old World

or if they did, it would have been well past 1600.

We used to go gather persimmons in the fall and make them into a

persimmon pudding. I gather you can buy them in Indiana grocery stores

i the fall but it's a very local product. You can order it in cans and

use that to make the cakes or puddings.

I have no experience with the oriental or Fuyu persimmon. It actually

shows up in markets and produce sections and I've seen it in Ann Arbor.

http://www.plantanswers.com/garden_column/jan04/3.htm

Johnnae

On Nov 5, 2009, at 2:07 AM, Stefan li Rous wrote:

<<< Does anyone have any period recipes that actually call for

persimmons? I think of those mainly as an ornamental yard bush. I

did do a search in the Florilegium and all I have there is passing

comments when talking about other fruits. Definitely no recipes or

mentions on SCA feast menus.

Has anyone else eaten one of these? What was your impression of them? >>>

Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:37:10 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmon

http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/species/divi5.htm

for native

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/ext/senior/fruits/persimmon1.htm

These look like the oriental ones to me.

Johnnae

On Nov 5, 2009, at 2:59 PM, otsisto wrote:

<<< My local Gerbs is carrying them. How do you know their ripe? The ones G

carries is firm like a sweet pepper and orange in color.

They looks like this

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2383/1843611393_3d92ffb73f.jpg

How do you tell the difference between European and American

Persimmons?

De >>>

Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:43:42 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmon

I came across a mention of this when looking at sites earlier-

"The vast majority of people eat persimmons without problem. In very

rare cases, persimmons have been known to contribute to the formation

of diospyrobezoars in some people. If you have had previous gastric

surgery, or any form of gastric impairment, you are encouraged to

consult with your physician before eating large quantities of

persimmons."

This is very rare but there are cases reported of "severe abdominal

cramping, anusea, vomiting, and pyrexia" associated with eating

persimmons.

This leads to articles like "Huge gastric diospyrobezoars successfully

treated by oral intake and endoscopic injection of Coca-Cola."

No kidding.

Johnnae

On Nov 5, 2009, at 4:42 PM, Susan Lin wrote:

<<< I tried a bite of one - the squat darker kind not the more "acorn" shaped

one. My mouth immediately dried up and my tongue felt 3 times its size. It

was alarming. My father-in-law said it might be a reaction because I had

had a sip of red wine and sometimes they don't mix but it has kept me from

trying persimmon until last month when I cautiously took a bite and

had no reaction.

I'm still leary of them and prefer to stay away from them but at

least now I don't think I'm going to die if I eat a piece.

Shoshanna >>>

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 12:59:24 -0800

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmon

<S> I was reading over some of my unread digests and Shoshanna(?) (Susan

Lin) said:

<<< What about persimmon? I for one had a horrible reaction (I'd say allergic

reaction but I've been told I'm not allowed to say allergic unless I've been

diagnosed as such) to eating one once but is it possible it was a persimmon

and not an apple or a quince. >>>

Does anyone have any period recipes that actually call for persimmons? <S>

As best I can determine, there are two broad classes of persimmons.

One is New World, the other is east asian and doesn't seem to have

been known in the west until long after our period.

<S> I think of those mainly as an ornamental yard bush. I did do a

search in the Florilegium and all I have there is passing comments

when talking about other fruits. Definitely no recipes or mentions

on SCA feast menus.

Has anyone else eaten one of these? What was your impression of

them? Better than Shoshanna's? <S>

I'm very fond of persimmons; we have about ten downstairs at the

moment ripening. I also have a tree, although it hasn't born any

fruit as yet--the ten were from someone at Betty's church who has a

tree. They do have to be thoroughly ripe, and are strikingly

astringent if not. Depending on the variety, a ripe persimmons

somewhere between soft and pulpy--i.e. always softer than an apple,

sometimes as soft as a very ripe tomato.

<S> Are they available in the grocery stores? I don't think I've seen

them for sale, but then that may be a regional thing if folks do

find them edible. <S>

Several different varieties are available in grocery stores here.

David/Cariadoc

www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:20:46 -0800

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmon

<<< I have an interesting story about what were served in Australia as

'Japanese' persimmons, as opposed to the regular kind normally

available in Australia.

To my father, the 'Japanese" persimmons tasted unripe. The owner

of the restaurant, when summoned, tasted them and pronounced them

perfectly ripe. >>>

I believe there are at least two different sorts of oriental

persimmons--whether one is called "Japanese" I don't know. One of

them is relatively firm when ripe, although not nearly as firm as an

apple. The other is considerably softer when ripe.

David/Cariadoc

www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:26:54 -0500

From: debbie pond <pursey42 at hotmail.com>

To: sca cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmons

<<< Does anyone have any period recipes that actually call for persimmons?

I think of those mainly as an ornamental yard bush. I did do a search

in the Florilegium and all I have there is passing comments when

talking about other fruits. Definitely no recipes or mentions on SCA

feast menus.

Has anyone else eaten one of these? What was your impression of them?

Better than Shoshanna's? >>>

http://www.marthastewart.com/recipe/broiled-persimmons-with-mascarpone?autonomy_kw=persimmon1

While this is not period, I saw this recipe for broiled persimmons on the Martha Stewart Show the other day. She said that while it is possible to eat them raw, that they have a somewhat gritty texture in that form. I have not tried this recipe, but plan to if I come across some persimmons at the market today.

Yamina

Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 12:25:15 -0500

From: Audrey Bergeron-Morin <audreybmorin at gmail.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmons

Oh, THOSE! I didn't get what you were talking about until I looked at the

Wikipedia article.

Well, we always eat the Japanese kind raw. They call them Kakis around here

and they're available in grocery stores sometimes during the year, along

with other exotic fruit.

I've never come across the other kind. The shape seems different (as per

Wikipedia illustration, which may also be wrong), more pointy for the

Japanese persimmon.

You have to wait until they're very mushy, wrinkled and getting on the

brownish side of things, that is, until us North-Americans would think

they've gone bad, until they're sweet enough to eat raw. But then, wow,

they're so good! Very sweet, with a lingering effect in the mouth like

honey. We just cut them in half and scrape away with a spoon, usually.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 10:26 AM, debbie pond <pursey42 at hotmail.com> wrote:

<<< http://www.marthastewart.com/recipe/broiled-persimmons-with-mascarpone?autonomy_kw=persimmon1

While this is not period, I saw this recipe for broiled persimmons on the

Martha Stewart Show the other day. She said that while it is possible to

eat them raw, that they have a somewhat gritty texture in that form. I have

not tried this recipe, but plan to if I come across some persimmons at the

market today.

Yamina >>>

Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 15:14:41 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmons

On Sep 8, 2010, at 2:33 PM, CHARLES POTTER wrote:

<<< There are several species that are period and some that are New

World, I don't think there are very many period recipes for there use

other than eating them fresh.

Master B >>>

There are of course two types and that might weigh in on the discussion too.

The Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America notes

Diospyros virginiana, native to the American states south of a line

from Connecticut to Kansas.

(We used to harvest them in rural Illinois and we still have family

recipes for them. They still gather, can, and sell the pulp in parts

of Indiana.)

and

D. kaki, indigenous to China which has supplanted commercially the

native fruit found previously in the American wild.

"There is the tomato-shaped Fuyu (the common name for several similar

varieties), eaten crunchy-hard like an apple, and the acorn-shaped

Hachiya, which like the native American species is edible only when

soft and gelatinous. Both turn bright red-orange when ripe and are

honey-sweet, with mild pumpkinyflavor. The season runs from late

September through December . Fuyus are chiefly consumed as fresh

fruits; Hachiyas can be eaten fresh, with a spoon, but are mostly used

in puddings, ice creams, breads, and cookies.

The cultivation of Asian persimmons, chiefly in central and southern

California, began with the importation of grafted trees from Japan in

the 1870s..."

The question would be if you are using persimmons in an SCA cookery

contest, are you using the Asian variety and a period Asian recipe or

are you attempting to sub in the Asian fruits for what was a native

American fruit found on the East coast by original colonists? Does the

entrant even know the difference?

---

A related problem would be what the entrant was calling the fruit.

Searching for them in 17th century texts proves to be problematic

because they weren't called persimmons. That comes from Algonquian and

OED explains it as

"<Virginia Algonquian pichamins, pushemins (with the plural ending -ar

(with voiceless consonant) written as English -s); compare Unami

Delaware x??mi?n (< *px??mi?n) < a more southerly Eastern Algonquian

language."

As Mistress Huette mentioned John Smith did encounter and write about

them. His is one of the early OED quotations in English.

1612 J. SMITH Map of Virginia 12 The fruit like medlers; they call

Putchamins, they cast vppon hurdles on a mat, and preserue them as

Pruines.

c1612 W. STRACHEY Hist. Trav. Virginia (1953) I. x. 120 They haue a

Plomb which they call Pessemmins like to a Meddeler in England, but of

a deepe tawny cullour.

1629 J. PARKINSON Paradisi in Sole III. x. 570 The third [Lotus] is

called in Virginia Pishamin. The Virginia Plumme.

1626 in Amer. Speech 15 294/2 Extending Southerly..towards the

pursimond ponds.

and finally here where the spelling is more recognizable--

1635 Relation of Maryland 18 Also there are divers sorts of Fruit-

trees, as Mulberries, Persimmons, with severall other kinds of Plums.

I'll play aound with these quotations from OED, especially this one -

"1629 J. PARKINSON Paradisi in Sole III. xiii. 578 The *Pishamin or

Virginia plum is called a plum, but vtterly differeth from all sorts

of plums"

and see what else I can find in terms of actual early recipes.

Johnnae

Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 13:30:58 -0700

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmons

As far as I can tell, the old world persimmons are native to the far

east. The word "persimmon" comes from an Indian language.

Is there any evidence that any sort of persimmon was known in Europe

prior to the discovery of the American persimmon? It seems to have

been a novelty when described by Capt. John Smith in 1607.

Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:07:20 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmons

And I think it remained a novelty at least in Britain. I didn't find

it mentioned in EEBO and the OED quotations are sparse, to say the

least.

I own the Dover facsimile edition of Parkinson's 1629 Paradisi in Sole. In it he comments that he has never tasted the fresh fruit because the tree, the Virginia Pishamin, the Virginia Plumme, "hath growne with us of the kernels that were sent out of Virginia, into great trees... It hath not yet borne flower or fruit in our Countrey that I can understand : but the fruit, as it was sent to us, is in forme and bigness like unto a Date, covered with a blackish skinne, set in a huske of foure hard leaves, very firme like unto a date, and almost as sweete, with great flat and thicke kernels within them, very like unto the former, but larger.

The Use of these Lote trees.

the last , as Captain Smith relateth in the discovery of Virginia, if

the fruit be eaten while it is greene, and not ripe, is able by the

harsh and binding taste and quality to draw ones mouth awry... but

when it is thorough ripe it is pleasant, as I have said before." page

570

So in 1629 he was still relaying upon Smith's description about the

unripe fruits. He does include an illustration in one of the plates.

Johnnae

On Sep 8, 2010, at 4:30 PM, David Friedman wrote:

<<< As far as I can tell, the old world persimmons are native to the far

east. The word "persimmon" comes from an Indian language.

Is there any evidence that any sort of persimmon was known in Europe

prior to the discovery of the American persimmon? It seems to have

been a novelty when described by Capt. John Smith in 1607. >>>

Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 01:19:44 -0400

From: Sam Wallace <guillaumedep at gmail.com>

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] persimmons

"Who the #$$% would come up with *persimmons* as a surprise

ingredient in such a contest! You probably can't even find a single

period recipe, much less find some for food use! What a dumb idea!"

Well, it would make for quite a surprise! I used them in the first feast

I did, which included a number of selections from A Soup for the Qan.

Really, it only gives two bits of advice concerning this fruit:

Persimmons should not be eaten with crab.

Persimmons are sweetish in flavor, cooling, and lack poison. They cause

ear and nose ch'i to pass, and supplement for hsu-lao, bloody stool

insufficiency. They make the stomach ample.

Guillaume