grapes-msg

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grapes-msg – 7/14/10

Period grapes, raisins and currants.

NOTE: See also the files: wine-msg, apples-msg, fruit-quinces-msg, sapa-msg,

sugar-msg, vegetables-msg, fruits-msg, vinegar-msg, pomegranates-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,

Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous

Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: Uduido at aol.com

Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 21:16:35 -0400 (EDT)

Subject: SC - Grapes

<< There is a HUGE Concord Grape vine(s) growing in my new backyard. I was

told by neighbors that it yielded gallons of grapes last year.

Does anyone know of anything within period that these could be used for?

All the talk of cordials/liqueurs has me hoping. Same neighbor made 23

bottles of wine from them.

~Lady Irissa

Sorry. The Labrusca (concord) grape variety is New World no questions, do

not pass go, do not collect $200.oo. :-) More appropriate varieties would be

Cabernet Sauvignon, Pinot Grigio, Gewurtzraminer, Zinfandel (questionable),

Sauvignon Blanc, Valipolicella (species unknown to me), Riesling, Chardonnay,

Sangoivese, Chamborcin, Merlot, etc.

The Labrusca grapes (e.g. Concord, Catawba, Niagra) are without exception New

World varieties and were not used in Europe until the late 1800's C.E. They

were then only used (as they still are) for root stock on which to graft the

European varities to prevent further dessicration of the vineyards by the

Phyloxera plague. (Which by the way is currently destroying the vineyards in

California at an alarming rate).

More to the point the foxy taste of New World labrusca varieties is totally

alien with regards to the flavor of Old World varieties and can not be

satisfactorily substituted under any circunstances.

Lord Ras (Uduido at aol.com)

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:13:57 EST

From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Grape juice inquiry

<< 100% white grape juice concentrate is from Niagra grapes >>

Yes, Niagra is a New World Grape and products made from it have that

thoroughly disgusting, IMO, foxy taste that concords and other new world

grapes give wine made from them.

Ras

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:01:47 -0600 (CST)

From: jeffrey s heilveil <heilveil at students.uiuc.edu>

Subject: SC - There are no old world grapes.

I was going to stay out of this one, but I feel I no longer have a choice.

It turns out that earlier in our history, a bug, the grape phylloxera, got

into Europe form the Americas and began decimating the roots of European

grapes. From there, all of the European wine industry was in trouble.

The only way that the were able to continue growing grapes was by

importing American root stocks, and grafting European varieties on them.

The reason is that American grapes had been selected such that only

strains that were resistant to the phylloxera were able to survive (high

predation pressure). So ineffect, there is no longer extant "old world"

grapes, because even the mighty french have had to rely on American root

stocks. (And boy do they love that...)

Sorry for the science,

Bogdan din Brasov

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:02:07 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - There are no old world grapes.

At 12:01 PM -0600 12/20/97, jeffrey s heilveil wrote:

>I was going to stay out of this one, but I feel I no longer have a choice.

>It turns out that earlier in our history, a bug, the grape phylloxera, got

>into Europe form the Americas and began decimating the roots of European

>grapes. From there, all of the European wine industry was in trouble.

>The only way that the were able to continue growing grapes was by

>importing American root stocks, and grafting European varieties on them.

>The reason is that American grapes had been selected such that only

>strains that were resistant to the phylloxera were able to survive (high

>predation pressure). So ineffect, there is no longer extant "old world"

>grapes, because even the mighty french have had to rely on American root

>stocks. (And boy do they love that...)

But there is still a legitimate distinction between old world grapes

grafted to new world roots and new world grapes (Concord et. al.). Most

dwarf and semi-dwarf fruit trees are dwarfed by grafting to rootstock of a

related species, I think often quince--but a semi-dwarf golden delicious

bears golden delicious apples, not quinces. I don't know if the root stock

affects the characteristics of the grapes at all, but I wouldn't it expect

it to be the major factor.

David/Cariadoc

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 20:14:17 -0500

From: margali <margali at 99main.com>

Subject: Re: SC - There are no old world grapes.

> So ineffect, there is no longer extant "old world"

> grapes, because even the mighty french have had to rely on American

> root stocks.

> Bogdan din Brasov

Bogdan,

Sorry to burst your bubble, but a variant of that specific fungus was

native to Europe. The reason that the fungus ran rampant was that due to

constant torrential rain fall. Roots of the grape plants were

super-saturated, and unable to fend off the fungal attack. A grape

grower by the name of Kerney, who had an interest developmental

vinicultuer and extensive ties to Europe, provided the solution to the

problem of the European vintners. While it is true that Kerney and his

associates saved commercial viniculture in Europe, its also true that

they did so using the root s of grape stock of European origin. New

world grapes had been found to be unsuitable for commercial viniculture

and all verities under commercial cultivation in the late 18 and 1900's

in the Americas were of European origin or derivation. In addition

areas of feral grapes and small holdings survived intact. The hybrid

vigor of the american provided root stock was instrumental in the

preservation of the wine industry in France, but the decrease in

production gave rise to the vinicultural trends of Germany, Italy and

Spain[with the exception of the popular sherry of Spain and the ports of

Portugal.] The reason that the American root stock was more resistant

was that the American vintners, unlike their cousins were more

interested in developing disease resistant varieties. Mr Kerney was more

concerned with combating nematodes rather than fungi, but still had

enough root stock suitable to supply the areas devastated by the fungal

invasion.

For further information, contact the Agricultural Department of the

Fresno State University, as they were the recipients of both the lands

and research notes and journals detailing his participation in this

matter.

Taras the Unwashed

using the account of margali

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:44:00 +1100

From: Robyn.Hodgkin at mailhost.dpie.gov.au

Subject: SC - RE: sultanas & Sugar

Bizarre.. just shows how much regional variations in ability to

find ingredients exists.

I was actually quite stunned to find someone asking what sultanas

were. Most Australian children have grown up with sultanas in their

lunchbox for morning tea. You can get them in little boxes and

packets. It is just one of those things that you take for granted

in your life...

Sultanas are a grape variety which are small, white, sweet and

seedless. They are one of the premier drying grapes, and are

much much smaller than raisins. They are larger than currants

though... I had been under the impression that currants were

dried black-currants, but have just been enlightened and told

that they too are a grape.

Size wise....

Sultanas, aprox 7/16th of an inch

Raisins, approx 12/16ths

Currants, approx 4 or 5/16ths of an inch.

Kiriel

Lochac

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:03:52 EDT

From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>

Subject: SC - Great Raisons

psu08000 at odin.cc.pdx.edu writes:

<< Does anyone know what "great raisins" are? >>

They are regular raisons as opposed to raisons of corance (aka Raisons of

Corinth aka dried currents aka Zante currants). :-)

Ras

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:44:42 EDT

From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>

Subject: SC - Dried currents

THLRenata at aol.com writes:

<< Currents are their own fruit and can be used either fresh or dried. >>

Although this statement is accurate, SFAIK it is generally accepted that in

the majority of cases when a period recipe speaks of dried currents (e.g.

raisyns of corance) what is meant is most probably raisons of Corinth. If the

use of Corinthian raisons is followed throughout the period from beginning to

late period, it is clearly evident that the original language becomes, over

time, corupted to the point where raysons of coraunce becomes written as dried

currents

Raisons of Corinth are a type of grape also but they are very small and are

sold under the name of Dried Currents-Zante . Sunkist is the brand I use

because it is readily available in the supermarkets in my area.

Ras

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:09:05 +1000

From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au>

Subject: Re: SC - Dried currents

>So... if currants in period recipes are the little grape raisins, were *real*

>currants (red or black) used in period? and if so how were they referred to?

>-brid

In many period recipies (esp 14th and 15th century) they are referred to as

"raysons of coraunce" (spelling varies) - ie "raisins of currants" as

distinct from raisins of grapes.

Rowan

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:13:37 -0700

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Dried currents

At 9:09 AM +1000 5/1/98, Robyn Probert wrote:

>>So... if currants in period recipes are the little grape raisins, were *real*

>>currants (red or black) used in period? and if so how were they referred to?

>>-brid

>In many period recipies (esp 14th and 15th century) they are referred to as

>"raysons of coraunce" (spelling varies) - ie "raisins of currants" as

>distinct from raisins of grapes.

I think you have it backwards. "Raysons of coraunce" means "raisins of

Corinth" means "dried zante grapes." My guess is that our "currants" got

called that because they were vaguely similar to raisins of Corinth, i.e.

little grapes.

David/Cariadoc

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 10:55:21 -0700

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Dried currents

>but which came first?

Raisons of Corinth.

According to the OED, the term was transferred to the Ribes fruits, which

were introduced into England sometime before 1578, when they are mentioned

by Lyte as the "Beyond sea gooseberry." They were vulgarly believed to be

the source of the dried "raisons of Corinth. Lyte calls them "Bastard

currant" and both Gerard and Parkinson protest against the error of calling

them "currants."

Useful book, the OED.

David/Cariadoc

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:02:16 EDT

From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Dried currents

meliora at macquarie.matra.com.au writes:

<< raysons of coraunce' makes more sense to me as dried currants.

What's the logic behind your statement Ras?

Drake. >>

<Sigh> The word currants is a relatively recent addition to the language.

Coraunce is generally known to be Corinth. The dried Zante grape was imported

and used very early in medieval recipes and came from the general

Mediterranean area where Corinth is located. It also grows well and

prolifically in that climate.

Although modern "currants" are native to Scandinavia, cultivation of the fruit

we now know as currants beginning in the 16th century (e.g., see "Food by

Waverly Root), I find it very difficult to believe that the widespread use of

dried modernly named currants would have been either practical or commercially

feasible if the source of the fruit was the wild plant.

Actual examples of the use of modern "currants" do not appear, SFAIK, anywhere

in the existing body of medieval recipes. And given that commercial production

of modern currants began outside the generally excepted dates of medieval

culture, I find it difficult to imagine it's general use in the middle ages.

Alternatively, in a dried form modern "currants" are very similar in

appearance to the traditional Zante currant (e.g., raison of Coraunce). It

would have taken little imagination to apply the original name of the

more expensive Zante import to a locally grown commercial crop especially when

that crop looked like and could be used in place of the original item.

Hope I hgave been clear here but it is sometimes difficuolt to summerize

several dozen pages of examples and information into a couple of paragraphs.

Ras

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:46:13 +0000

From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au>

Subject: Re: SC - Vegetable Names

Micaylah wrote:

>Yes but aren't sultanas sultanas and golden raisins golden raisins? I know I

>can buy both at the store.

Without rehashing the long debate on this we had some months back, it

depends where you live. In Lochac/Australia, raisins are large dried grapes

with seeds, sultanas are small dried seedless (sultana) grapes. Muscatels

are small dried muscatel grapes (usually dried on the stem), currants are

very small dried blackcurrants, etc.

Rowan

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:33:30 -0500

From: Phlip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: [none]

> With all the recipes I have seen that reference currants, and having

> picked my share of ripe currants in late summer, I remain confused as

> to why these berries are refused as a possible food source??

> Especially in places that didn't necessarily have their own grape

> vines to make raisins from?? How far off-track am I?

> Tyrca

I wouldn't call it off-track. Probably the biggest reason for believing

references are to grape-y currants rather than black/red currants is

that raisins of courance/corinth/etc. is almost invariably specified,

and while Corinth was known in period for growing grapes, it has, and

SFAIK had, no reputation for growing currant berries. Also, most dried

fruit is (or was) sun-dried, and the parts of Northern Europe where

currants (berries) grow aren't especially suited for that kind of

processing.

Adamantius

Østgardr, East

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:54:20 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Dried Currants

LrdRas at aol.com wrote:

> snowfire at mail.snet.net writes:

> << So the word "rayson" means "dried" or something?

> Elysant >>

> rayson equals rison which is indeed the name used for a dried grape.

> Ras

raisin < M.E. & O.F. reisin < L.L. racimus < L. racemus, meaning a

cluster of grapes

Small dried grapes (presumably dried on the bunch) were brought from the

Mediterranean Basin to places like England, where they were known as

"raysouns of Courance", or some variant thereof.

Possibly larger dried grapes came from elsewhere, and weren't considered

Corinthian.

It's very unlikely that the currants referred to in the medieval English

recipes are referring to anything other than dried grapes, for a variety

of reasons among them being:

1. English cookery of the period calls for a lot of dried Mediterranean

fruit, such as plums, figs, dates and raisins, as well as raisins of

Corinth. None of these are local items, and they are there both for the

romance of their imported status and also for their sweetness, something

the English seemed to prize more than the French, the Italians, and the

Germans.

2. While red and black currants do seem to have existed in the British

Isles, Britain is really not a terrific place for drying fruit, given

its climate. I believe there are a few references to drying apples, but

not many, and I've seen no references to berries having been dried. I

suspect they're more likely to have been either eaten fresh or made into

country wines.

I have no idea why red and black currants are called currants; my

dictionary suggests they are so named due to their resemblance to the

small, dried "Corinthian" grapes. If this sounds implausible, I'll pose

a modern example of this type of equivocation: ever see the Python

routine about the self-defense against fresh fruit course? John Cleese,

as the instructor, uses the term "red currant" and "raspberry"

interchangably, having his students charge at him with deadly

raspberries, using a Bengal tiger, as I recall, to defend himself. He

says the great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that 'e eats

not only the fruit-laden foe, but also the red currants.

Adamantius

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:20:38 -0500

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC - verjus

And it came to pass on 11 Mar 00,, that Thomas Gloning wrote:

> The two uses of Italian "agresto" or "agresta" for the unripe grapes and

> for verjuice are also observed in an article of Jaqueline Brunet and Odile

> Redon on "Vins, jus et verjus" [Wines, juices and verjuice in Italian

> cookbooks of the 14th and 15th centuries]. They say:

The same usage appears in Spanish. "Agraz" refers both to the unripe

grapes and to the juice thereof. Sometimes the liquid is referred to as

"zumo de agraz" (juice of unripe grapes), but the shorthand version is

more usual.

Some recipes call for the grapes themselves. Sometimes this is stated

explicitly as "agraz entero" (whole unripe grapes). Sometimes it is

simply made clear by the context. For example, a recipe in Granado for

verjuice jelly contains the instruction to take the "agraz" and remove the

seeds, then cook it with water and sugar until it comes apart; obviously,

this refers to the fruit, not the juice. There is a recipe in de Nola which

uses the word in both its meanings. "PARA HACER BUEN AGRAZ

CONFORTATIVO" (To make a good comforting verjuice). The

instructions are to take "agraz" and crush it in a mortar to extract the

juice, adding leaves of basil.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:19:56 EDT

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: SC - Grapoe varieites-LONG

jenne at tulgey.browser.net writes:

<< What extant grape species are period? >>

Actually commercial production was greatly reduced. Phylloxera was introduced

into France from the eastern USA. France quickly grafted their traditional

varieties onto American rootstock and within 4-5 years was again producing

the same wines as before. Cabernet Sauvignon, True Chablis, Sauvignon Blanc,

Cabernet Blanc, Chardonnay, Shiraz and more (excluding Zinfandel which is

inconclusive as to origins) all date back to at least the middle ages and

some such as Cabernet Sauvignon and not a few Italian, Spanish and Portuguese

varieties date to the Roman occupation. Although some varieties do have

'improved' cultivars, for the most part these vines are essentially the exact

clones of the original vines since the procedure for multiplying grapes is by

cuttings and grafting and not seed. grafting and cutting as a reproductive

method were widely practiced as early as the 1st century in Rome and most

likely earlier but many centuries in the Greco-Middle Eastern area.

Also many wines such as Trebbiano and Est! Est! Est! from Italy are still

being produced exactly as they were in the middle ages so the purchase of

commercial wine is well within the products still available in modern times

list that can be called 'period' without guilt or error. :-)

Ironically, the recent problems with this disease in California is a direct

result of California producers planting Vinifera vines on their own roots

because the disease had not been seen in California. With the experimental

breeding of European Vinifera type cultivars in the East at places like the

University of Pennsylvania, Cornell University and other quality agricultural

centers and their subsequent offering on a commercial scale by grape vine

producing companies such as Canandagua and Welshes, it was inevitable that

this disease, which is indigenous to the Northeastern USA, would eventually

find it's way to California.

More's the pity...

Ras

Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:51:22 EDT

From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Re: Sappa

ekoogler at chesapeake.net writes:

> I don't suppose there is any chance of getting them to bottle and peddle the

> must for those of us who don't have any vintners nearby who do something like

> this?

> Kiri

Actually, you have a couple of choices that might not have been explored on

this thread yet.

1. There are, in many brewing and vinting supply shops, canned grape

concentrates of just about any wine variety available. Most are of a size to

make a five gallon batch of wine, but I'd assume you'd boil them down further

to make a syrup anyway, and once it's concentrated, it's less likely to mold,

and might be of a size to be in the fridge.

2. Middle Eastern markets have grape syrup in as a cooking ingredient. I

don't know the variety, but I'll look on the label the next time I go to the

best local one here.

Corwyn

Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 08:02:47 EDT

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Cardinal Grapes

steldr at home.net writes:

<< I know we've had some discussion on grape types in period and that concord

grapes are a modern creation >>

Various concord types are indeed the result of selective breeding using

labrusca grapes which are the native American variety of grapes.

<<- I was just at a produce shop here in Tulsa and they had cardinal grapes

- -- can anyone tell me more about them? Are they still a concord type??? >>

Cardinal grapes were developed in 1939 CE at the Horticulture Station in

Fresno, California. They are vinifera in ancestry.

A table grape which would be useful at feasts would be Thompson Seedless

which originally come from Iran. Another variety of table grapes on the

market which has an ancient history is Regina (introduced from Syria to

Italy by the Romans),

Ras

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:49:42 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Sultanas & golden raisins

> Nanna Rognvaldardottir wrote:

> ><snippage>

> > Just to add even more to the confusion, there are also Corinthian raisins,

> > which have nothing to do with (dried) currants - they are sultanas, fairly

> > large, dark golden, and very sweet and tasty.

> >

> > Nanna

Sue Clemenger wrote:

> So a "sultana" would be what I see marketed (in my part of the U.S.) as

> "golden raisins?"

> --Maire

Not exactly, but a good working substitute. I believe the golden raisins

we get in the US are dried Thompson Seedless grapes.

Adamantius

Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 01:18:14 +0100

From: TG <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>

Subject: Re: SC - must

Platina, in book II, at the beginning and at the end of chapter 4 (De

uva; on grapes) gives some information about must. Of particular value

is the contrast to _sapa_ at the end of this chapter.

Th.

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] online glossary

Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 15:00:50 -0500

> Muskadine - ?

> (A Closet for Ladies and Gentlewomen, 1636) - To make Prince-bisket

> bread... and a spoonfull of Muskadine,...

> Muscadine grapes or raisins???? I know that there is a kind of wine made from

> that sort of grapes...maybe that's what they're talking about.

What is currently called muscadine in the US is made from New World grapes

and is also referred to as scuppernong wine. The muscadine mentioned here

is probably a wine of muscat grapes. French Muscadet from the Loire Valley

is such a wine.

Bear

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:13:19 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] New raisins in de Nola

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On 15 Oct 2003, at 9:57, CorwynWdwd at aol.com wrote:

> You obviously have never cleaned your kitchen cabinets and found "THE RAISIN

> BOX THAT NOBODY REMEMBERED" Da Da DAAAAAAAAAA" <G>... There's a block of fossilized

> raisens in there. Trust me, there's a difference, and I bet given the

> shipping methods in period the differences were more profound.

> Corwyn

I've had good luck using the microwave to resurrect such fossils. Break the

mass apart, and put it in a micro-safe dish. Sprinkle it with a small amount

of water (maybe 2 tablespoons for a boxful?). Cover the dish tightly with

plastic wrap, and nuke it for a few minutes. The steam will rehydrate the

raisins, and they will be soft and plump. Boiling water works too, but the

microwave method is less messy, and less likely to wash away flavor.

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 23:57:40 -0400

From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Was: Wine must/Now: raisens

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Are raisins period?

Well, there's a raisin paste in 2 Fifteenth c. cookery books, and

Raisins in the Chopped Spinach recipe in de Nola, so I'm pretty sure that dried grapes are

period.

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:07:39 -0400 (GMT-04:00)

From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Grapes (was Chekyns in browet)

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

-----Original Message-----

From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>

Were there even green, ripe grapes in period? The only green when

ripe grapes I know of today are seedless ones, and I assume those are

a modern hybrid.

_______________________________________________

De Nola has one recipe which calls for three bunches of "white"

grapes and two bunches of "black". (Likewise, figs are divided into

white and black varieties.) These are not unripe grapes -- the term

for those is "agraz" -- and the same word is used for the juice of

unripe grapes.

I don't know what "green" means in the case of the English recipe

that Lainie quoted.

Is there a viticulturist in the house?

Brighid ni Chiarain

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 23:47:53 -0700

From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] how green is 'grene'?

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Ok, so I posted the question of the 'grene' grapes to the Chaucerian crowd,

and got some very interesting replies- here's a few- and the one that I

think is the winner:

_____

I looked through my medieval cookbooks and found a "black grape" sauce

and as I read it, it does mean grapes that are black in color.

OTOH, in another book there is definition for an ingredient called

"verjus": "Vinegar and unripe grapes (whose juice and whose seeds

preserved in salt were both called verjuice --_verjus_--and were

flavorings of paramount importance) could be kept in store for several

months. Cooks also used young wine, produced within the past year, and

took care to have it in good supply." So here is clearly grapes that

were green with "green" meaning unripe, no matter what color they might

have been destined to be when ripe.

[Not sure what that might mean, since verjus is not mentioned in the

recipe...]

_____

AND NOW, FOR OUR WINNER TODAY!:

It occurs to me that if you set out the recipe as the rhymes suggest, you

may decide that the colour and ripeness of the grapes are a matter of

choice.

Chekyns in browet.

Take chekyns, scalde hom fayre and clene.

Take persole, sauge, oþer herb3 grene,

Grapus, and stope þy chekyns with wynne.

Take goode brothe, sethe hom þerinne,

So þat þay sone boyled may be.

Coloure þe brothe with safrone fre,

And cast þeron powder dowce,

For to be served in goode mennys howse.

_____

It had not occurred to me that the recipe might be arranged thusly- but

dang, it fits! Which solves my question- because the 'grene' modifies the

herbs, not the grapes! So maybe next time I'll use red grapes, which IMO

are tastier, and worry more about my dessert!

'Lainie

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 07:59:37 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 13:43:17 -0500

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roysonys of courance

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Feb 27, 2006, at 1:08 PM, Sharon Gordon wrote:

> A post on another list reminded me to ask about Roysonys of courance.

> I've been told these are

> 1) Currants, probably black ones

> 2) Dried black and/or maybe red currants

> 3) The tiny black currant grapes that look rather like currants

> 4) Dried versions of the tiny black currant grapes that look rather like

> currants

> How do you know what to use when?

A raisin is a type of grape. Raisins of Corinth, dried currants, and

Zante currants, and variations on those names, probably refer to #4

above. Most medieval recipes will refer to raisins of courance when

the little dried grapes are wanted, and raisins of the sun, or great

raisins (as opposed to small) when ordinary dried raisins are what is

intended.

Red and black currants are, I believe, technically berries, and they

don't seem to turn up that often, if at all, in medieval recipes. I

suspect that medieval England (which I mention because English

recipes seem to call for raisins and currants more often than French

and German ones, AFAICT) wasn't a big center for the dried fruit

industry, nor _really_ suitable climactically for sun-drying fruit on

farms.

While this is probably an over-simplification, recipes, more often

than not, when they refer to currants in English, anyway, are going

to be calling for a dried, imported product, or fresh or conserved,

red or black currants (must check some late-period sources), which

latter are more likely to be a local product, in season if not

preserved.

Are we confused yet? ;-)

Adamantius

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roysonys of courance

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Mar 1, 2006, at 2:16 AM, otsisto wrote:

> My local health food store carries dried black currants and they are the

> currants and not the zantes. I was a bit surprised as gooseberries which are

> related don't seem to dehydrate real well. The store can't get dried red

> currants.

> I did get a taste of homemade chocolate covered (dehydrated) red currants

> (clusters) and cranberries from a friend whose cousin made them for

> Christmas gifts one year. So I think it is possible.

It is surely possible now, but that doesn't mean it was possible, let

alone practiced, anywhere in medieval Europe. Let's think about it

this way: where, in medieval Europe, would there have been a regular

supply of red or black currants and the kind of warm, sunny, breezy

climate commonly associated with the drying of fruit? I'm trying to

picture the famous local red currant crops of Malaga, Provence, or

Turkey, or Lebanon, or Tunis, and all I'm getting on the Wayback

Machine's screen is snow and static... not much better luck when we

look for the booming raisin industry in Herjolfness. See what I mean?

> -----Original Message-----

>> 2) Dried black and/or maybe red currants

> Apparently that can't be done (she says, eyeing her bottle of black

> currant syrup - made from real currants)

Perhaps the above was a bit of an overstatement, but the gist, which

is that the necessary combination of raw materials and suitable

conditions for drying did not exist in period, with a long tradition

of conserving and otherwise moist-preserving this fruit as supporting

evidence for the claim, is probably pretty accurate.

Adamantius

Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 00:35:43 -0500

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roysonys of courance

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Mar 2, 2006, at 9:59 PM, Daniel Phelps wrote:

> Seriously, though, we can be pretty certain that a period English

> recipe calling for raisins of Courance is referring to dried grapes

> of the little variety found on some Mediterranean islands like

> Corinth and Zante.

> Okay lests we not see what it obvious, i.e. the forest for the trees

> roysonys of courance

> raisins of Corinth

> Hmmm... raysonys are raisins could courance be Corinth?

> Did this get noted in a previous post that I missed?

I didn't specifically mention it, but I may have been remiss in not

stating something I thought was, if not obvious, at least highly

likely. What I did was to use them fairly interchangeably, though.

FWIW, I found this in Apple's Webster's Dictionary application that

comes bundled with recent versions of OS X (I have an edition of the

OED on disk, but it would require rebooting to get at it):

currant

noun

1 a small dried fruit made from a seedless variety of grape

originally grown in the eastern Mediterranean region, now widely

produced in California, and much used in cooking : [as adj. ] a

currant bun.

2 a Eurasian shrub that produces small edible black, red, or white

berries. • Genus Ribes, family Grossulariaceae: numerous species,

including black currant and red currant.

• a berry from such a shrub.

ORIGIN Middle English raisons of Corauntz, translating Anglo-Norman

French raisins de Corauntz ‘grapes of Corinth ’ (the original

source).

This doesn't state with much clarity that the etymology of the term

"currant" as it applies to the red and black berries derives from the

little dried Mediterranean grape, but it seems evident that that is

the case. I then have to wonder what the berries were called in

England before the little dried grape was a common import item.

Ah, well, Anne Hagen just became bedtime reading, I guess...

Adamantius

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:16:58 +0200 (CEST)

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rosine was Plum Butter

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> I thought Weinbeeren were fresh grapes. By white

> raisins, do you mean the ones sold here as golden

> raisins?

In period recipes, 'weinbeeren' AFAIK can mean fresh

grapes, especially in northern dialects (it's still

'winbeer' in Low German). In modern German, though,

fresh grapes are 'Trauben'. Weinbeeren in retail

refers to a gently dried white grape that gains a kind

of greenish colour in the process. I don't know if

that is what you'd call golden raisins, though, I

haven't had the opportunity to shop in an American

outlet in years.

Giano

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 02:31:12 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rosine was Plum Butter

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--- Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de> wrote:

> In period recipes, 'weinbeeren' AFAIK can mean fresh

> grapes, especially in northern dialects (it's still

> 'winbeer' in Low German). In modern German, though,

> fresh grapes are 'Trauben'. Weinbeeren in retail

> refers to a gently dried white grape that gains a kind

> of greenish colour in the process. I don't know if

> that is what you'd call golden raisins, though, I

> haven't had the opportunity to shop in an American

> outlet in years.

> Giano

For the general American grocery-buying public, there are only three

types of raisins generally available to us: The black raisin, the golden raisin, and the currant. This doesn't mean that there are no other kinds of raisins produced in small, local markets, etc. But, in general, these

are the only kinds you can find country-wide.

The golden raisin is also called a "sultana". Which was initially produced by Turks using a "white" or green grape. In the US, this same grape is now called a Thompson's Seedless grape, because in the mid-19th century, a hybridizer took the Turkish sultana grape and fiddled with it so that it is now a seedless grape and added his name to it. I have read somewhere that both the black raisin and the golden raisin are now both made from Thompson's Seedless grapes, but using

different processes in order to get the different colors.

Huette

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 03:05:21 -0400

From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] grapes

--On Friday, July 02, 2010 1:47 AM -0500 "Mark S. Harris"

<MarkSHarris at austin.rr.com> wrote:

<<< Okay, I guess this might be a good description for some, but not me. What

color is "petits pois"? I'm assuming some sort of green. >>>

"petits pois" are little green peas.

toodles, margaret

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 02:14:38 -0500

From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] grapes

Do they look like these?

http://www.mrsoshouse.com/plants/image/grapes.jpg

http://www.josephinedonatelli.com/images/graphics/grapes500x331crop1.jpg

http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/wild_grape.htm

-----Original Message-----

Dame Selene said:

<<< So the feral table grapes are all over my parents' backyard again and

the bunches of grapes are forming. Not very big and juicy since nobody

actually waters them on purpose, but the fruit is on the vine, about the

size and colour of petits pois. >>>

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 21:42:52 +0930

From: "Claire Clarke" <angharad at adam.com.au>

To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks] grapes

Green table grapes are green, but they are ripe, right? But they aren't the

purple of wine grapes. Are they imported or native to the New World? Are all

wine grapes reddish purple to purple when ripe? The green table grapes

don't taste like they would be Concord grapes.

Stefan

======

Table grapes can be both red and white/green. The green ones are definitely

ripe. As far as I know almost all wine grapes are red. They are all

cultivars of the same species, just with differing amounts of sugars and so

on. I've never heard of Concord grapes.

In the set of three links otsisto sent the first looks most like the grapes

that grow in my garden when they are immature. I have a red and a white vine

growing together and you cannot tell which bunches are which until they

ripen.

Angharad

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 08:23:47 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks] grapes

Chardonnay grapes aren't red.

http://wine.appellationamerica.com/grape-varietal/Chardonnay.html

http://www.concordgrape.org/ provides information on the Concord

grapes where it says

"it was not until 1854 that the Concord variety made its debut,

appropriately named after the Massachusetts village of Concord where

the first of its variety was grown. The Concord grape is a robust and

aromatic grape whose ancestors were wild native species found growing

in the rugged New England soil.

TO JUICE: The first unfermented grape juice known to be processed in

the United States was by a Vineland, New Jersey dentist, Dr. Thomas

Welch in 1869. Dr. Welch, his wife and 17-year old son, Charles,

gathered 40 pounds of Concord grapes from the trellis in front of

their house. In their kitchen, they cooked the grapes for a few

minutes, squeezed the juice out through cloth bags, and poured the

world?s first processed fresh fruit juice into twelve quart bottles on

the kitchen table..... Dr. Welch's process was a success, and his

application of Louis Pasteur's theory of pasteurization to preserve

fresh grape juice pioneered the industry of canned and bottled fruit

juices in America. This first juice was used on the Communion table in

the local Methodist church for sacramental purposes, and most of the

first orders for grape juice came from churches for Communion.

In the century following the introduction of Concord grapes, more of

these blue-black slip-skin grapes were sold than all other species

combined. Today, growers harvest more than 336,000 tons in the U.S.

Washington grows the largest number, followed by New York, Michigan,

Pennsylvania, Ohio and Missouri.