grapes-msg – 1/12/08
Period grapes, raisins and currants.
NOTE: See also the files: wine-msg, apples-msg, fruit-quinces-msg.
sugar-msg, vegetables-msg, fruits-msg, vinegar-msg, pomegranates-msg.
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From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 21:16:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - Grapes
<< There is a HUGE Concord Grape vine(s) growing in my new backyard. I was
told by neighbors that it yielded gallons of grapes last year.
Does anyone know of anything within period that these could be used for?
All the talk of cordials/liqueurs has me hoping. Same neighbor made 23
bottles of wine from them.
~Lady Irissa
>>
Sorry. The Labrusca (concord) grape variety is New World no questions, do
not pass go, do not collect $200.oo. :-) More appropriate varieties would be
Cabernet Sauvignon, Pinot Grigio, Gewurtzraminer, Zinfandel (questionable),
Sauvignon Blanc, Valipolicella (species unknown to me), Riesling, Chardonnay,
Sangoivese, Chamborcin, Merlot, etc.
The Labrusca grapes (e.g. Concord, Catawba, Niagra) are without exception New
World varieties and were not used in Europe until the late 1800's C.E. They
were then only used (as they still are) for root stock on which to graft the
European varities to prevent further dessicration of the vineyards by the
Phyloxera plague. (Which by the way is currently destroying the vineyards in
California at an alarming rate).
More to the point the foxy taste of New World labrusca varieties is totally
alien with regards to the flavor of Old World varieties and can not be
satisfactorily substituted under any circunstances.
Lord Ras (Uduido at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:13:57 EST
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Grape juice inquiry
<< 100% white grape juice concentrate is from Niagra grapes >>
Yes, Niagra is a New World Grape and products made from it have that
thoroughly disgusting, IMO, foxy taste that concords and other new world
grapes give wine made from them.
Ras
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:01:47 -0600 (CST)
From: jeffrey s heilveil <heilveil at students.uiuc.edu>
Subject: SC - There are no old world grapes.
I was going to stay out of this one, but I feel I no longer have a choice.
It turns out that earlier in our history, a bug, the grape phylloxera, got
into Europe form the Americas and began decimating the roots of European
grapes. From there, all of the European wine industry was in trouble.
The only way that the were able to continue growing grapes was by
importing American root stocks, and grafting European varieties on them.
The reason is that American grapes had been selected such that only
strains that were resistant to the phylloxera were able to survive (high
predation pressure). So ineffect, there is no longer extant "old world"
grapes, because even the mighty french have had to rely on American root
stocks. (And boy do they love that...)
Sorry for the science,
Bogdan din Brasov
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:02:07 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - There are no old world grapes.
At 12:01 PM -0600 12/20/97, jeffrey s heilveil wrote:
>I was going to stay out of this one, but I feel I no longer have a choice.
>It turns out that earlier in our history, a bug, the grape phylloxera, got
>into Europe form the Americas and began decimating the roots of European
>grapes. From there, all of the European wine industry was in trouble.
>The only way that the were able to continue growing grapes was by
>importing American root stocks, and grafting European varieties on them.
>The reason is that American grapes had been selected such that only
>strains that were resistant to the phylloxera were able to survive (high
>predation pressure). So ineffect, there is no longer extant "old world"
>grapes, because even the mighty french have had to rely on American root
>stocks. (And boy do they love that...)
But there is still a legitimate distinction between old world grapes
grafted to new world roots and new world grapes (Concord et. al.). Most
dwarf and semi-dwarf fruit trees are dwarfed by grafting to rootstock of a
related species, I think often quince--but a semi-dwarf golden delicious
bears golden delicious apples, not quinces. I don't know if the root stock
affects the characteristics of the grapes at all, but I wouldn't it expect
it to be the major factor.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 20:14:17 -0500
From: margali <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - There are no old world grapes.
> So ineffect, there is no longer extant "old world"
> grapes, because even the mighty french have had to rely on American
> root stocks.
>
> Bogdan din Brasov
Bogdan,
Sorry to burst your bubble, but a variant of that specific fungus was
native to Europe. The reason that the fungus ran rampant was that due to
constant torrential rain fall. Roots of the grape plants were
super-saturated, and unable to fend off the fungal attack. A grape
grower by the name of Kerney, who had an interest developmental
vinicultuer and extensive ties to Europe, provided the solution to the
problem of the European vintners. While it is true that Kerney and his
associates saved commercial viniculture in Europe, its also true that
they did so using the root s of grape stock of European origin. New
world grapes had been found to be unsuitable for commercial viniculture
and all verities under commercial cultivation in the late 18 and 1900's
in the Americas were of European origin or derivation. In addition
areas of feral grapes and small holdings survived intact. The hybrid
vigor of the american provided root stock was instrumental in the
preservation of the wine industry in France, but the decrease in
production gave rise to the vinicultural trends of Germany, Italy and
Spain[with the exception of the popular sherry of Spain and the ports of
Portugal.] The reason that the American root stock was more resistant
was that the American vintners, unlike their cousins were more
interested in developing disease resistant varieties. Mr Kerney was more
concerned with combating nematodes rather than fungi, but still had
enough root stock suitable to supply the areas devastated by the fungal
invasion.
For further information, contact the Agricultural Department of the
Fresno State University, as they were the recipients of both the lands
and research notes and journals detailing his participation in this
matter.
Taras the Unwashed
using the account of margali
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:44:00 +1100
From: Robyn.Hodgkin at mailhost.dpie.gov.au
Subject: SC - RE: sultanas & Sugar
Bizarre.. just shows how much regional variations in ability to
find ingredients exists.
I was actually quite stunned to find someone asking what sultanas
were. Most Australian children have grown up with sultanas in their
lunchbox for morning tea. You can get them in little boxes and
packets. It is just one of those things that you take for granted
in your life...
Sultanas are a grape variety which are small, white, sweet and
seedless. They are one of the premier drying grapes, and are
much much smaller than raisins. They are larger than currants
though... I had been under the impression that currants were
dried black-currants, but have just been enlightened and told
that they too are a grape.
Size wise....
Sultanas, aprox 7/16th of an inch
Raisins, approx 12/16ths
Currants, approx 4 or 5/16ths of an inch.
Kiriel
Lochac
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:03:52 EDT
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: SC - Great Raisons
psu08000 at odin.cc.pdx.edu writes:
<< Does anyone know what "great raisins" are? >>
They are regular raisons as opposed to raisons of corance (aka Raisons of
Corinth aka dried currents aka Zante currants). :-)
Ras
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:44:42 EDT
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: SC - Dried currents
THLRenata at aol.com writes:
<< Currents are their own fruit and can be used either fresh or dried. >>
Although this statement is accurate, SFAIK it is generally accepted that in
the majority of cases when a period recipe speaks of dried currents (e.g.
raisyns of corance) what is meant is most probably raisons of Corinth. If the
use of Corinthian raisons is followed throughout the period from beginning to
late period, it is clearly evident that the original language becomes, over
time, corupted to the point where raysons of coraunce becomes written as dried
currents
Raisons of Corinth are a type of grape also but they are very small and are
sold under the name of Dried Currents-Zante . Sunkist is the brand I use
because it is readily available in the supermarkets in my area.
Ras
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:09:05 +1000
From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au>
Subject: Re: SC - Dried currents
>So... if currants in period recipes are the little grape raisins, were *real*
>currants (red or black) used in period? and if so how were they referred to?
>-brid
In many period recipies (esp 14th and 15th century) they are referred to as
"raysons of coraunce" (spelling varies) - ie "raisins of currants" as
distinct from raisins of grapes.
Rowan
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:13:37 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Dried currents
At 9:09 AM +1000 5/1/98, Robyn Probert wrote:
>>So... if currants in period recipes are the little grape raisins, were *real*
>>currants (red or black) used in period? and if so how were they referred to?
>>-brid
>
>In many period recipies (esp 14th and 15th century) they are referred to as
>"raysons of coraunce" (spelling varies) - ie "raisins of currants" as
>distinct from raisins of grapes.
I think you have it backwards. "Raysons of coraunce" means "raisins of
Corinth" means "dried zante grapes." My guess is that our "currants" got
called that because they were vaguely similar to raisins of Corinth, i.e.
little grapes.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 10:55:21 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Dried currents
>but which came first?
Raisons of Corinth.
According to the OED, the term was transferred to the Ribes fruits, which
were introduced into England sometime before 1578, when they are mentioned
by Lyte as the "Beyond sea gooseberry." They were vulgarly believed to be
the source of the dried "raisons of Corinth. Lyte calls them "Bastard
currant" and both Gerard and Parkinson protest against the error of calling
them "currants."
Useful book, the OED.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:02:16 EDT
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Dried currents
meliora at macquarie.matra.com.au writes:
<< raysons of coraunce' makes more sense to me as dried currants.
What's the logic behind your statement Ras?
Drake. >>
<Sigh> The word currants is a relatively recent addition to the language.
Coraunce is generally known to be Corinth. The dried Zante grape was imported
and used very early in medieval recipes and came from the general
Mediterranean area where Corinth is located. It also grows well and
prolifically in that climate.
Although modern "currants" are native to Scandinavia, cultivation of the fruit
we now know as currants beginning in the 16th century (e.g., see "Food by
Waverly Root), I find it very difficult to believe that the widespread use of
dried modernly named currants would have been either practical or commercially
feasible if the source of the fruit was the wild plant.
Actual examples of the use of modern "currants" do not appear, SFAIK, anywhere
in the existing body of medieval recipes. And given that commercial production
of modern currants began outside the generally excepted dates of medieval
culture, I find it difficult to imagine it's general use in the middle ages.
Alternatively, in a dried form modern "currants" are very similar in
appearance to the traditional Zante currant (e.g., raison of Coraunce). It
would have taken little imagination to apply the original name of the
more expensive Zante import to a locally grown commercial crop especially when
that crop looked like and could be used in place of the original item.
Hope I hgave been clear here but it is sometimes difficuolt to summerize
several dozen pages of examples and information into a couple of paragraphs.
Ras
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:46:13 +0000
From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au>
Subject: Re: SC - Vegetable Names
Micaylah wrote:
>Yes but aren't sultanas sultanas and golden raisins golden raisins? I know I
>can buy both at the store.
Without rehashing the long debate on this we had some months back, it
depends where you live. In Lochac/Australia, raisins are large dried grapes
with seeds, sultanas are small dried seedless (sultana) grapes. Muscatels
are small dried muscatel grapes (usually dried on the stem), currants are
very small dried blackcurrants, etc.
Rowan
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:33:30 -0500
From: Phlip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: [none]
> With all the recipes I have seen that reference currants, and having
> picked my share of ripe currants in late summer, I remain confused as
> to why these berries are refused as a possible food source??
> Especially in places that didn't necessarily have their own grape
> vines to make raisins from?? How far off-track am I?
>
> Tyrca
I wouldn't call it off-track. Probably the biggest reason for believing
references are to grape-y currants rather than black/red currants is
that raisins of courance/corinth/etc. is almost invariably specified,
and while Corinth was known in period for growing grapes, it has, and
SFAIK had, no reputation for growing currant berries. Also, most dried
fruit is (or was) sun-dried, and the parts of Northern Europe where
currants (berries) grow aren't especially suited for that kind of
processing.
Adamantius
¯stgardr, East
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:54:20 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Dried Currants
LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> snowfire at mail.snet.net writes:
> << So the word "rayson" means "dried" or something?
>
> Elysant >>
>
> rayson equals rison which is indeed the name used for a dried grape.
>
> Ras
raisin < M.E. & O.F. reisin < L.L. racimus < L. racemus, meaning a
cluster of grapes
Small dried grapes (presumably dried on the bunch) were brought from the
Mediterranean Basin to places like England, where they were known as
"raysouns of Courance", or some variant thereof.
Possibly larger dried grapes came from elsewhere, and weren't considered
Corinthian.
It's very unlikely that the currants referred to in the medieval English
recipes are referring to anything other than dried grapes, for a variety
of reasons among them being:
1. English cookery of the period calls for a lot of dried Mediterranean
fruit, such as plums, figs, dates and raisins, as well as raisins of
Corinth. None of these are local items, and they are there both for the
romance of their imported status and also for their sweetness, something
the English seemed to prize more than the French, the Italians, and the
Germans.
2. While red and black currants do seem to have existed in the British
Isles, Britain is really not a terrific place for drying fruit, given
its climate. I believe there are a few references to drying apples, but
not many, and I've seen no references to berries having been dried. I
suspect they're more likely to have been either eaten fresh or made into
country wines.
I have no idea why red and black currants are called currants; my
dictionary suggests they are so named due to their resemblance to the
small, dried "Corinthian" grapes. If this sounds implausible, I'll pose
a modern example of this type of equivocation: ever see the Python
routine about the self-defense against fresh fruit course? John Cleese,
as the instructor, uses the term "red currant" and "raspberry"
interchangably, having his students charge at him with deadly
raspberries, using a Bengal tiger, as I recall, to defend himself. He
says the great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that 'e eats
not only the fruit-laden foe, but also the red currants.
Adamantius
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:20:38 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - verjus
And it came to pass on 11 Mar 00,, that Thomas Gloning wrote:
> The two uses of Italian "agresto" or "agresta" for the unripe grapes and
> for verjuice are also observed in an article of Jaqueline Brunet and Odile
> Redon on "Vins, jus et verjus" [Wines, juices and verjuice in Italian
> cookbooks of the 14th and 15th centuries]. They say:
The same usage appears in Spanish. "Agraz" refers both to the unripe
grapes and to the juice thereof. Sometimes the liquid is referred to as
"zumo de agraz" (juice of unripe grapes), but the shorthand version is
more usual.
Some recipes call for the grapes themselves. Sometimes this is stated
explicitly as "agraz entero" (whole unripe grapes). Sometimes it is
simply made clear by the context. For example, a recipe in Granado for
verjuice jelly contains the instruction to take the "agraz" and remove the
seeds, then cook it with water and sugar until it comes apart; obviously,
this refers to the fruit, not the juice. There is a recipe in de Nola which
uses the word in both its meanings. "PARA HACER BUEN AGRAZ
CONFORTATIVO" (To make a good comforting verjuice). The
instructions are to take "agraz" and crush it in a mortar to extract the
juice, adding leaves of basil.
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:37:55 EDT
From: ChannonM at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: Poppa's mustard- mighty morphin cookers(daa da da, da da) LONG
> Scully says that must is grape juice that has been boiled down until
> syrupy. He uses undiluted frozen grape juice concentrate for his
> redactions. This might be a good thing to use for cooks not using
> alcohol. It was either Pliny or Cato that tossed the sealed bottles of
> must into the fish pond to keep them from spoiling, which also argues
> that must was not fermented.
Platina says on Grapes (Milham translation pg141)
Ex uva concocta in aheno sapa sit, ex puro et expresso musto in defrutariis
vasis defrutum. Mustum enim decoctum defrutum vocatur, unde et defrutare
mustum coqure diciums; sapa tamen defruti vice nonnumquam utimur in
condiendis pomis ac piris
"Condensed grape is made from grapes boiled down in a pot, while condensed
must is made from pure must which has been condensed in special defrutum
jars. Cooked-down must is called defrutum, from which we call to cook down
must defrutare, however in seasoning apples and pears we sometimes use
condensed grape in place of condensed must"
The translation "condensed must is made from pure must" leads me to believe
there are two different musts, one that has already been condensed, the other
not. In the recipe for Red mustard(according to Milham)
"Sinampim, passulas, sandalos, buccellas panis tostas, cinnami parum, aut
seorsum aut simul contertito, cvel molito. Trita cum acresta aut aceto cumque
modico sapae dissolvito, in patinasque per setaceum transagito. Hoc minu
praedicto concalefacit, ac sitim movet, nec incommode nutrit."
They key phrase is;
"Trita cum acresta aut aceto cumque modico sapae dissolvito
"When it is ground, soak with verjuice or vinegar and a bit of must"
The original recipe does not contain the word defrutum but contains the word
"sapae" which when doing some morphological research (sounds more impressive
than saying I'm looking in a dictionary ;), the word sapa(in lewis and short
dictionary) defined as "must, new wine boiled thick". This does not convince
me though that the original did intend defrutum as Platina indicates it is
evaporation and not boiling that reduces the liquid to make defrutum.
All of the following words are similar in meaning to sapa, so we have alot to
work with.
1 siraeum
2 hepsema
3 mustulentus
4 musteus
5 sacrima
6 cortinale
7 carenum
8 mustus
9 protropum
10 dolium
11 vinalis
Anyone else want to give this a shot? Maybe some of our Latin language
people? I'm almost hopeless.
Hauviette
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:30:59 EDT
From: KallipygosRed at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Poppa's mustard
stefan at texas.net writes:
> But the only frozen/concentrated grape juice that I've seen is the
> New World Concord grape stuff. And I think using this type would
> have a significant taste impact.
Welches also makes a white grape juice and a berry white grape juice
concentrate. Would either of those be closer to the taste of old world grapes?
Lars
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:35:26 +0200
From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #2380
Looking at several ancient and medieval places where lat. "sapa" or it.
"saba/sabba" is used, it seems to me that it is a sweet product made of
must (or grape juice?) that is boiled down to up to 1 / 3 of its
original volume. The most important texts for the Platina question are
of course not the ancient texts, but 15th century Italian cookery texts
like Martino, the source for Platina, and the Neapolitan Recipe
collection. Let me mention a few aspects:
Anthimus, in #3, says: "mel aut sapa aut carenum" (honey or sapa or
carenum): it seems that there is a diminishing degree of sweetness here.
In the notes to a commentary to the text of Varro, Dieter Flach
mentions, that in Florence there is a saying "sweet as sapa" still
today.
Very important seems a passage in #101 of the Neapolitan Recipe
collection: "he falla agra cum agresto he dolce cum sabba" 'make it
sour/tart with agrest/verjuice and sweet with sapa/must that was boiled
down') -- I would not be surprised if the use of _sapa_ had something to
do with the tempering of sour and sweet (for dietetic reasons). --
However, in other recipes, the use of such ingredients is mentioned as
an alternative ("con un pocho d'agresto, o aceto, o vino cotto, cioè
sapa"; "Et fallo voi lo dolce o forte como ti piace", Faccioli p. 156).
In versions of Martino, there is some variation in the use of the
expressions "sapa" etc. and "vino cotto".
I think the best way to solve the sapa-problem in Platina is to look
for _sapa_/_saba_/_sabba_ and for _mosto cotto_/_vino cotto_ etc. in the
four Martino-versions now published (Benporat, Faccioli, Montorfano) and
in the Neapolitan recipe collection.
Best, Thomas
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:46:06 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Poppa's mustard
KallipygosRed at aol.com writes:
<< Welches also makes a white grape juice and a berry white grape juice
concentrate. Would either of those be closer to the taste of old world
grapes?
Lars >>
All of the Welsches products are based on New world varieties of grapes, The
distinguishing feature of these varieties is their 'foxy' flavor which is
best described as the flavor in Grape jam. This flavor is alien and absent
from Vinifera varieties so although the use of commercially available
supermarket grape juice might be your only recourse, the resulting 'grape'
flavor is totally alien to any taste an old world grape might provide.
Ras
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:19:56 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Grapoe varieites-LONG
jenne at tulgey.browser.net writes:
<< What extant grape species are period? >>
Actually commercial production was greatly reduced. Phylloxera was introduced
into France from the eastern USA. France quickly grafted their traditional
varieties onto American rootstock and within 4-5 years was again producing
the same wines as before. Cabernet Sauvignon, True Chablis, Sauvignon Blanc,
Cabernet Blanc, Chardonnay, Shiraz and more (excluding Zinfandel which is
inconclusive as to origins) all date back to at least the middle ages and
some such as Cabernet Sauvignon and not a few Italian, Spanish and Portuguese
varieties date to the Roman occupation. Although some varieties do have
'improved' cultivars, for the most part these vines are essentially the exact
clones of the original vines since the procedure for multiplying grapes is by
cuttings and grafting and not seed. grafting and cutting as a reproductive
method were widely practiced as early as the 1st century in Rome and most
likely earlier but many centuries in the Greco-Middle Eastern area.
Also many wines such as Trebbiano and Est! Est! Est! from Italy are still
being produced exactly as they were in the middle ages so the purchase of
commercial wine is well within the products still available in modern times
list that can be called 'period' without guilt or error. :-)
Ironically, the recent problems with this disease in California is a direct
result of California producers planting Vinifera vines on their own roots
because the disease had not been seen in California. With the experimental
breeding of European Vinifera type cultivars in the East at places like the
University of Pennsylvania, Cornell University and other quality agricultural
centers and their subsequent offering on a commercial scale by grape vine
producing companies such as Canandagua and Welshes, it was inevitable that
this disease, which is indigenous to the Northeastern USA, would eventually
find it's way to California.
More's the pity...
Ras
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:51:22 EDT
From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Re: Sappa
ekoogler at chesapeake.net writes:
> I don't suppose there is any chance of getting them to bottle and peddle the
> must for those of us who don't have any vintners nearby who do something like
> this?
>
> Kiri
Actually, you have a couple of choices that might not have been explored on
this thread yet.
1. There are, in many brewing and vinting supply shops, canned grape
concentrates of just about any wine variety available. Most are of a size to
make a five gallon batch of wine, but I'd assume you'd boil them down further
to make a syrup anyway, and once it's concentrated, it's less likely to mold,
and might be of a size to be in the fridge.
2. Middle Eastern markets have grape syrup in as a cooking ingredient. I
don't know the variety, but I'll look on the label the next time I go to the
best local one here.
Corwyn
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 08:02:47 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Cardinal Grapes
steldr at home.net writes:
<< I know we've had some discussion on grape types in period and that concord
grapes are a modern creation >>
Various concord types are indeed the result of selective breeding using
labrusca grapes which are the native American variety of grapes.
<<- I was just at a produce shop here in Tulsa and they had cardinal grapes
- -- can anyone tell me more about them? Are they still a concord type??? >>
Cardinal grapes were developed in 1939 CE at the Horticulture Station in
Fresno, California. They are vinifera in ancestry.
A table grape which would be useful at feasts would be Thompson Seedless
which originally come from Iran. Another variety of table grapes on the
market which has an ancient history is Regina (introduced from Syria to
Italy by the Romans),
Ras
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:49:42 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Sultanas & golden raisins
> Nanna Rognvaldardottir wrote:
> ><snippage>
> > Just to add even more to the confusion, there are also Corinthian raisins,
> > which have nothing to do with (dried) currants - they are sultanas, fairly
> > large, dark golden, and very sweet and tasty.
> >
> > Nanna
Sue Clemenger wrote:
> So a "sultana" would be what I see marketed (in my part of the U.S.) as
> "golden raisins?"
> --Maire
Not exactly, but a good working substitute. I believe the golden raisins
we get in the US are dried Thompson Seedless grapes.
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 01:18:14 +0100
From: TG <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: Re: SC - must
Platina, in book II, at the beginning and at the end of chapter 4 (De
uva; on grapes) gives some information about must. Of particular value
is the contrast to _sapa_ at the end of this chapter.
Th.
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] online glossary
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 15:00:50 -0500
> Muskadine - ?
> (A Closet for Ladies and Gentlewomen, 1636) - To make Prince-bisket
> bread... and a spoonfull of Muskadine,...
>
> Muscadine grapes or raisins???? I know that there is a kind of wine made from
> that sort of grapes...maybe that's what they're talking about.
What is currently called muscadine in the US is made from New World grapes
and is also referred to as scuppernong wine. The muscadine mentioned here
is probably a wine of muscat grapes. French Muscadet from the Loire Valley
is such a wine.
Bear
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:13:19 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] New raisins in de Nola
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On 15 Oct 2003, at 9:57, CorwynWdwd at aol.com wrote:
> You obviously have never cleaned your kitchen cabinets and found "THE RAISIN
> BOX THAT NOBODY REMEMBERED" Da Da DAAAAAAAAAA" <G>... There's a block of fossilized
> raisens in there. Trust me, there's a difference, and I bet given the
> shipping methods in period the differences were more profound.
>
> Corwyn
I've had good luck using the microwave to resurrect such fossils. Break the
mass apart, and put it in a micro-safe dish. Sprinkle it with a small amount
of water (maybe 2 tablespoons for a boxful?). Cover the dish tightly with
plastic wrap, and nuke it for a few minutes. The steam will rehydrate the
raisins, and they will be soft and plump. Boiling water works too, but the
microwave method is less messy, and less likely to wash away flavor.
Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 23:57:40 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Was: Wine must/Now: raisens
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Are raisins period?
Well, there's a raisin paste in 2 Fifteenth c. cookery books, and
Raisins in the Chopped Spinach recipe in de Nola, so I'm pretty sure that dried grapes are
period.
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:07:39 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Grapes (was Chekyns in browet)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>
Were there even green, ripe grapes in period? The only green when
ripe grapes I know of today are seedless ones, and I assume those are
a modern hybrid.
_______________________________________________
De Nola has one recipe which calls for three bunches of "white"
grapes and two bunches of "black". (Likewise, figs are divided into
white and black varieties.) These are not unripe grapes -- the term
for those is "agraz" -- and the same word is used for the juice of
unripe grapes.
I don't know what "green" means in the case of the English recipe
that Lainie quoted.
Is there a viticulturist in the house?
Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 23:47:53 -0700
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] how green is 'grene'?
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Ok, so I posted the question of the 'grene' grapes to the Chaucerian crowd,
and got some very interesting replies- here's a few- and the one that I
think is the winner:
_____
I looked through my medieval cookbooks and found a "black grape" sauce
and as I read it, it does mean grapes that are black in color.
OTOH, in another book there is definition for an ingredient called
"verjus": "Vinegar and unripe grapes (whose juice and whose seeds
preserved in salt were both called verjuice --_verjus_--and were
flavorings of paramount importance) could be kept in store for several
months. Cooks also used young wine, produced within the past year, and
took care to have it in good supply." So here is clearly grapes that
were green with "green" meaning unripe, no matter what color they might
have been destined to be when ripe.
[Not sure what that might mean, since verjus is not mentioned in the
recipe...]
_____
AND NOW, FOR OUR WINNER TODAY!:
It occurs to me that if you set out the recipe as the rhymes suggest, you
may decide that the colour and ripeness of the grapes are a matter of
choice.
Chekyns in browet.
Take chekyns, scalde hom fayre and clene.
Take persole, sauge, oþer herb3 grene,
Grapus, and stope þy chekyns with wynne.
Take goode brothe, sethe hom þerinne,
So þat þay sone boyled may be.
Coloure þe brothe with safrone fre,
And cast þeron powder dowce,
For to be served in goode mennys howse.
_____
It had not occurred to me that the recipe might be arranged thusly- but
dang, it fits! Which solves my question- because the 'grene' modifies the
herbs, not the grapes! So maybe next time I'll use red grapes, which IMO
are tastier, and worry more about my dessert!
'Lainie
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 07:59:37 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 13:43:17 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roysonys of courance
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Feb 27, 2006, at 1:08 PM, Sharon Gordon wrote:
> A post on another list reminded me to ask about Roysonys of courance.
>
> I've been told these are
> 1) Currants, probably black ones
> 2) Dried black and/or maybe red currants
> 3) The tiny black currant grapes that look rather like currants
> 4) Dried versions of the tiny black currant grapes that look rather like
> currants
>
> How do you know what to use when?
A raisin is a type of grape. Raisins of Corinth, dried currants, and
Zante currants, and variations on those names, probably refer to #4
above. Most medieval recipes will refer to raisins of courance when
the little dried grapes are wanted, and raisins of the sun, or great
raisins (as opposed to small) when ordinary dried raisins are what is
intended.
Red and black currants are, I believe, technically berries, and they
don't seem to turn up that often, if at all, in medieval recipes. I
suspect that medieval England (which I mention because English
recipes seem to call for raisins and currants more often than French
and German ones, AFAICT) wasn't a big center for the dried fruit
industry, nor _really_ suitable climactically for sun-drying fruit on
farms.
While this is probably an over-simplification, recipes, more often
than not, when they refer to currants in English, anyway, are going
to be calling for a dried, imported product, or fresh or conserved,
red or black currants (must check some late-period sources), which
latter are more likely to be a local product, in season if not
preserved.
Are we confused yet? ;-)
Adamantius
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roysonys of courance
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Mar 1, 2006, at 2:16 AM, otsisto wrote:
> My local health food store carries dried black currants and they are the
> currants and not the zantes. I was a bit surprised as gooseberries which are
> related don't seem to dehydrate real well. The store can't get dried red
> currants.
> I did get a taste of homemade chocolate covered (dehydrated) red currants
> (clusters) and cranberries from a friend whose cousin made them for
> Christmas gifts one year. So I think it is possible.
It is surely possible now, but that doesn't mean it was possible, let
alone practiced, anywhere in medieval Europe. Let's think about it
this way: where, in medieval Europe, would there have been a regular
supply of red or black currants and the kind of warm, sunny, breezy
climate commonly associated with the drying of fruit? I'm trying to
picture the famous local red currant crops of Malaga, Provence, or
Turkey, or Lebanon, or Tunis, and all I'm getting on the Wayback
Machine's screen is snow and static... not much better luck when we
look for the booming raisin industry in Herjolfness. See what I mean?
> -----Original Message-----
>> 2) Dried black and/or maybe red currants
>
> Apparently that can't be done (she says, eyeing her bottle of black
> currant syrup - made from real currants)
Perhaps the above was a bit of an overstatement, but the gist, which
is that the necessary combination of raw materials and suitable
conditions for drying did not exist in period, with a long tradition
of conserving and otherwise moist-preserving this fruit as supporting
evidence for the claim, is probably pretty accurate.
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 00:35:43 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roysonys of courance
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Mar 2, 2006, at 9:59 PM, Daniel Phelps wrote:
> Seriously, though, we can be pretty certain that a period English
> recipe calling for raisins of Courance is referring to dried grapes
> of the little variety found on some Mediterranean islands like
> Corinth and Zante.
>
> Okay lests we not see what it obvious, i.e. the forest for the trees
>
> roysonys of courance
> raisins of Corinth
>
> Hmmm... raysonys are raisins could courance be Corinth?
>
> Did this get noted in a previous post that I missed?
I didn't specifically mention it, but I may have been remiss in not
stating something I thought was, if not obvious, at least highly
likely. What I did was to use them fairly interchangeably, though.
FWIW, I found this in Apple's Webster's Dictionary application that
comes bundled with recent versions of OS X (I have an edition of the
OED on disk, but it would require rebooting to get at it):
currant
noun
1 a small dried fruit made from a seedless variety of grape
originally grown in the eastern Mediterranean region, now widely
produced in California, and much used in cooking : [as adj. ] a
currant bun.
2 a Eurasian shrub that produces small edible black, red, or white
berries. ¥ Genus Ribes, family Grossulariaceae: numerous species,
including black currant and red currant.
¥ a berry from such a shrub.
ORIGIN Middle English raisons of Corauntz, translating Anglo-Norman
French raisins de Corauntz Ôgrapes of Corinth Õ (the original
source).
This doesn't state with much clarity that the etymology of the term
"currant" as it applies to the red and black berries derives from the
little dried Mediterranean grape, but it seems evident that that is
the case. I then have to wonder what the berries were called in
England before the little dried grape was a common import item.
Ah, well, Anne Hagen just became bedtime reading, I guess...
Adamantius
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:16:58 +0200 (CEST)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rosine was Plum Butter
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> I thought Weinbeeren were fresh grapes. By white
> raisins, do you mean the ones sold here as golden
> raisins?
In period recipes, 'weinbeeren' AFAIK can mean fresh
grapes, especially in northern dialects (it's still
'winbeer' in Low German). In modern German, though,
fresh grapes are 'Trauben'. Weinbeeren in retail
refers to a gently dried white grape that gains a kind
of greenish colour in the process. I don't know if
that is what you'd call golden raisins, though, I
haven't had the opportunity to shop in an American
outlet in years.
Giano
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 02:31:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rosine was Plum Butter
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
--- Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de> wrote:
> In period recipes, 'weinbeeren' AFAIK can mean fresh
> grapes, especially in northern dialects (it's still
> 'winbeer' in Low German). In modern German, though,
> fresh grapes are 'Trauben'. Weinbeeren in retail
> refers to a gently dried white grape that gains a kind
> of greenish colour in the process. I don't know if
> that is what you'd call golden raisins, though, I
> haven't had the opportunity to shop in an American
> outlet in years.
>
> Giano
For the general American grocery-buying public, there are only three
types of raisins generally available to us: The black raisin, the golden raisin, and the currant. This doesn't mean that there are no other kinds of raisins produced in small, local markets, etc. But, in general, these
are the only kinds you can find country-wide.
The golden raisin is also called a "sultana". Which was initially produced by Turks using a "white" or green grape. In the US, this same grape is now called a Thompson's Seedless grape, because in the mid-19th century, a hybridizer took the Turkish sultana grape and fiddled with it so that it is now a seedless grape and added his name to it. I have read somewhere that both the black raisin and the golden raisin are now both made from Thompson's Seedless grapes, but using
different processes in order to get the different colors.
Huette
<the end>