grapes-msg – 1/12/08
Period grapes, raisins and currants.
NOTE: See also the files: wine-msg, fruit-apples-msg, fruit-quinces-msg.
sugar-msg, vegetables-msg, fruits-msg, vinegar-msg, pomegranates-msg.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 21:16:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - Grapes
<< There is a HUGE Concord Grape vine(s) growing in my new backyard. I was
told by neighbors that it yielded gallons of grapes last year.
Does anyone know of anything within period that these could be used for?
All the talk of cordials/liqueurs has me hoping. Same neighbor made 23
bottles of wine from them.
~Lady Irissa
>>
Sorry. The Labrusca (concord) grape variety is New World no questions, do
not pass go, do not collect $200.oo. :-) More appropriate varieties would be
Cabernet Sauvignon, Pinot Grigio, Gewurtzraminer, Zinfandel (questionable),
Sauvignon Blanc, Valipolicella (species unknown to me), Riesling, Chardonnay,
Sangoivese, Chamborcin, Merlot, etc.
The Labrusca grapes (e.g. Concord, Catawba, Niagra) are without exception New
World varieties and were not used in Europe until the late 1800's C.E. They
were then only used (as they still are) for root stock on which to graft the
European varities to prevent further dessicration of the vineyards by the
Phyloxera plague. (Which by the way is currently destroying the vineyards in
California at an alarming rate).
More to the point the foxy taste of New World labrusca varieties is totally
alien with regards to the flavor of Old World varieties and can not be
satisfactorily substituted under any circunstances.
Lord Ras (Uduido at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:13:57 EST
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Grape juice inquiry
<< 100% white grape juice concentrate is from Niagra grapes >>
Yes, Niagra is a New World Grape and products made from it have that
thoroughly disgusting, IMO, foxy taste that concords and other new world
grapes give wine made from them.
Ras
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:01:47 -0600 (CST)
From: jeffrey s heilveil <heilveil at students.uiuc.edu>
Subject: SC - There are no old world grapes.
I was going to stay out of this one, but I feel I no longer have a choice.
It turns out that earlier in our history, a bug, the grape phylloxera, got
into Europe form the Americas and began decimating the roots of European
grapes. From there, all of the European wine industry was in trouble.
The only way that the were able to continue growing grapes was by
importing American root stocks, and grafting European varieties on them.
The reason is that American grapes had been selected such that only
strains that were resistant to the phylloxera were able to survive (high
predation pressure). So ineffect, there is no longer extant "old world"
grapes, because even the mighty french have had to rely on American root
stocks. (And boy do they love that...)
Sorry for the science,
Bogdan din Brasov
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:02:07 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - There are no old world grapes.
At 12:01 PM -0600 12/20/97, jeffrey s heilveil wrote:
>I was going to stay out of this one, but I feel I no longer have a choice.
>It turns out that earlier in our history, a bug, the grape phylloxera, got
>into Europe form the Americas and began decimating the roots of European
>grapes. From there, all of the European wine industry was in trouble.
>The only way that the were able to continue growing grapes was by
>importing American root stocks, and grafting European varieties on them.
>The reason is that American grapes had been selected such that only
>strains that were resistant to the phylloxera were able to survive (high
>predation pressure). So ineffect, there is no longer extant "old world"
>grapes, because even the mighty french have had to rely on American root
>stocks. (And boy do they love that...)
But there is still a legitimate distinction between old world grapes
grafted to new world roots and new world grapes (Concord et. al.). Most
dwarf and semi-dwarf fruit trees are dwarfed by grafting to rootstock of a
related species, I think often quince--but a semi-dwarf golden delicious
bears golden delicious apples, not quinces. I don't know if the root stock
affects the characteristics of the grapes at all, but I wouldn't it expect
it to be the major factor.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 20:14:17 -0500
From: margali <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - There are no old world grapes.
> So ineffect, there is no longer extant "old world"
> grapes, because even the mighty french have had to rely on American
> root stocks.
>
> Bogdan din Brasov
Bogdan,
Sorry to burst your bubble, but a variant of that specific fungus was
native to Europe. The reason that the fungus ran rampant was that due to
constant torrential rain fall. Roots of the grape plants were
super-saturated, and unable to fend off the fungal attack. A grape
grower by the name of Kerney, who had an interest developmental
vinicultuer and extensive ties to Europe, provided the solution to the
problem of the European vintners. While it is true that Kerney and his
associates saved commercial viniculture in Europe, its also true that
they did so using the root s of grape stock of European origin. New
world grapes had been found to be unsuitable for commercial viniculture
and all verities under commercial cultivation in the late 18 and 1900's
in the Americas were of European origin or derivation. In addition
areas of feral grapes and small holdings survived intact. The hybrid
vigor of the american provided root stock was instrumental in the
preservation of the wine industry in France, but the decrease in
production gave rise to the vinicultural trends of Germany, Italy and
Spain[with the exception of the popular sherry of Spain and the ports of
Portugal.] The reason that the American root stock was more resistant
was that the American vintners, unlike their cousins were more
interested in developing disease resistant varieties. Mr Kerney was more
concerned with combating nematodes rather than fungi, but still had
enough root stock suitable to supply the areas devastated by the fungal
invasion.
For further information, contact the Agricultural Department of the
Fresno State University, as they were the recipients of both the lands
and research notes and journals detailing his participation in this
matter.
Taras the Unwashed
using the account of margali
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:44:00 +1100
From: Robyn.Hodgkin at mailhost.dpie.gov.au
Subject: SC - RE: sultanas & Sugar
Bizarre.. just shows how much regional variations in ability to
find ingredients exists.
I was actually quite stunned to find someone asking what sultanas
were. Most Australian children have grown up with sultanas in their
lunchbox for morning tea. You can get them in little boxes and
packets. It is just one of those things that you take for granted
in your life...
Sultanas are a grape variety which are small, white, sweet and
seedless. They are one of the premier drying grapes, and are
much much smaller than raisins. They are larger than currants
though... I had been under the impression that currants were
dried black-currants, but have just been enlightened and told
that they too are a grape.
Size wise....
Sultanas, aprox 7/16th of an inch
Raisins, approx 12/16ths
Currants, approx 4 or 5/16ths of an inch.
Kiriel
Lochac
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:03:52 EDT
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: SC - Great Raisons
psu08000 at odin.cc.pdx.edu writes:
<< Does anyone know what "great raisins" are? >>
They are regular raisons as opposed to raisons of corance (aka Raisons of
Corinth aka dired currents aka Zante currants). :-)
Ras
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:44:42 EDT
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: SC - Dried currents
THLRenata at aol.com writes:
<< Currents are their own fruit and can be used either fresh or dried. >>
Although this statement is accurate, SFAIK it is generally accepted that in
the majority of cases when a period recipe speaks of dried currents (e.g.
raisyns of corance) what is meant is most probably raisons of Corinth. If the
use of Corinthian raisons is followed throughout the period from beginning to
late period, it is clearly evident that the original language becomes, over
time, corupted to the point where raysons of coraunce becomes written as dried
currents
Raisons of Corinth are a type of grape also but they are very small and are
sold under the name of Dried Currents-Zante . Sunkist is the brand I use
because it is readily available in the supermarkets in my area.
Ras
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:09:05 +1000
From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au>
Subject: Re: SC - Dried currents
>So... if currants in period recipes are the little grape raisins, were *real*
>currants (red or black) used in period? and if so how were they refered to?
>-brid
In many period recipies (esp 14th and 15th century) they are referred to as
"raysons of coraunce" (spelling varies) - ie "raisins of currants" as
distinct from raisins of grapes.
Hope this helps
Rowan
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:13:37 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Dried currents
At 9:09 AM +1000 5/1/98, Robyn Probert wrote:
>>So... if currants in period recipes are the little grape raisins, were *real*
>>currants (red or black) used in period? and if so how were they refered to?
>>-brid
>
>In many period recipies (esp 14th and 15th century) they are referred to as
>"raysons of coraunce" (spelling varies) - ie "raisins of currants" as
>distinct from raisins of grapes.
I think you have it backwards. "Raysons of coraunce" means "raisins of
Corinth" means "dried zante grapes." My guess is that our "currants" got
called that because they were vaguely similar to raisins of Corinth, i.e.
little grapes.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 10:55:21 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Dried currents
>but which came first?
Raisons of Corinth.
According to the OED, the term was transferred to the Ribes fruits, which
were introduced into England sometime before 1578, when they are mentioned
by Lyte as the "Beyond sea gooseberry." They were vulgarly believed to be
the source of the dried "raisons of Corinth. Lyte calls them "Bastard
currant" and both Gerard and Parkinson protest against the error of calling
them "currants."
Useful book, the OED.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:02:16 EDT
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Dried currents
In a message dated 5/3/98 5:25:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
meliora at macquarie.matra.com.au writes:
<< raysons of coraunce' makes more sense to me as dried currants.
What's the logic behind your statement Ras?
Drake. >>
<Sigh> The word currants is a relatively recent addition to the language.
Coraunce is generally known to be Corinth. The dried Zante grape was imported
and used very early in medieval recipes and came from the general
Mediterranean area where Corinth is located. It also grows well and
prolifically in that climate.
Although modern "currants" are native to Scandinavia, cultivation of the fruit
we now know as currants beginning in the 16th century (e.g., see "Food by
Waverly Root), I find it very difficult to believe that the widespread use of
dried modernly named currants would have been either practical or commercially
feasible if the source of the fruit was the wild plant.
Actual examples of the use of modern "currants" do not appear, SFAIK, anywhere
in the existing body of medieval recipes. And given that commercial production
of modern currants began outside the generally excepted dates of medieval
culture, I find it difficult to imagine it's general use in the middle ages.
Alternatively, in a dried form modern "currants" are very similar in
appearance to the traditional Zante currant (e.g., raison of Coraunce). It
would have taken little imagination to apply the original name of the
more expensive Zante import to a locally grown commercial crop especially when
that crop looked like and could be used in place of the original item.
Hope I hgave been clear here but it is sometimes difficuolt to summerize
several dozen pages of examples and information into a couple of paragraphs.
Ras
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:46:13 +0000
From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au>
Subject: Re: SC - Vegetable Names
Micaylah wrote:
>Yes but aren't sultanas sultanas and golden raisins golden raisins? I know I
>can buy both at the store.
Without rehashing the long debate on this we had some months back, it
depends where you live. In Lochac/Australia, raisins are large dried grapes
with seeds, sultanas are small dried seedless (sultana) grapes. Muscatels
are small dried muscatel grapes (usually dried on the stem), currants are
very small dried blackcurrants, etc.
Rowan
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:33:30 -0500
From: Phlip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: [none]
> With all the recipes I have seen that reference currants, and having
> picked my share of ripe currants in late summer, I remain confused as
> to why these berries are refused as a possible food source??
> Especially in places that didn't necessarily have their own grape
> vines to make raisins from?? How far off-track am I?
>
> Tyrca
I wouldn't call it off-track. Probably the biggest reason for believing
references are to grape-y currants rather than black/red currants is
that raisins of courance/corinth/etc. is almost invariably specified,
and while Corinth was known in period for growing grapes, it has, and
SFAIK had, no reputation for growing currant berries. Also, most dried
fruit is (or was) sun-dried, and the parts of Northern Europe where
currants (berries) grow aren't especially suited for that kind of
processing.
Adamantius
Østgardr, East
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:54:20 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Dried Currants
LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> snowfire at mail.snet.net writes:
> << So the word "rayson" means "dried" or something?
>
> Elysant >>
>
> rayson equals rison which is indeed the name used for a dried grape.
>
> Ras
raisin < M.E. & O.F. reisin < L.L. racimus < L. racemus, meaning a
cluster of grapes
Small dried grapes (presumably dried on the bunch) were brought from the
Mediterranean Basin to places like England, where they were known as
"raysouns of Courance", or some variant thereof.
Possibly larger dried grapes came from elsewhere, and weren't considered
Corinthian.
It's very unlikely that the currants referred to in the medieval English
recipes are referring to anything other than dried grapes, for a variety
of reasons among them being:
1. English cookery of the period calls for a lot of dried Mediterranean
fruit, such as plums, figs, dates and raisins, as well as raisins of
Corinth. None of these are local items, and they are there both for the
romance of their imported status and also for their sweetness, something
the English seemed to prize more than the French, the Italians, and the
Germans.
2. While red and black currants do seem to have existed in the British
Isles, Britain is really not a terrific place for drying fruit, given
its climate. I believe there are a few references to drying apples, but
not many, and I've seen no references to berries having been dried. I
suspect they're more likely to have been either eaten fresh or made into
country wines.
I have no idea why red and black currants are called currants; my
dictionary suggests they are so named due to their resemblance to the
small, dried "Corinthian" grapes. If this sounds implausible, I'll pose
a modern example of this type of equivocation: ever see the Python
routine about the self-defense against fresh fruit course? John Cleese,
as the instructor, uses the term "red currant" and "raspberry"
interchangably, having his students charge at him with deadly
raspberries, using a Bengal tiger, as I recall, to defend himself. He
says the great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that 'e eats
not only the fruit-laden foe, but also the red currants.
Adamantius
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:20:38 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - verjus
And it came to pass on 11 Mar 00,, that Thomas Gloning wrote:
> The two uses of Italian "agresto" or "agresta" for the unripe grapes and
> for verjuice are also observed in an article of Jaqueline Brunet and Odile
> Redon on "Vins, jus et verjus" [Wines, juices and verjuice in Italian
> cookbooks of the 14th and 15th centuries]. They say:
The same usage appears in Spanish. "Agraz" refers both to the unripe
grapes and to the juice thereof. Sometimes the liquid is referred to as
"zumo de agraz" (juice of unripe grapes), but the shorthand version is
more usual.
Some recipes call for the grapes themselves. Sometimes this is stated
explicitly as "agraz entero" (whole unripe grapes). Sometimes it is
simply made clear by the context. For example, a recipe in Granado for
verjuice jelly contains the instruction to take the "agraz" and remove the
seeds, then cook it with water and sugar until it comes apart; obviously,
this refers to the fruit, not the juice. There is a recipe in de Nola which
uses the word in both its meanings. "PARA HACER BUEN AGRAZ
CONFORTATIVO" (To make a good comforting verjuice). The
instructions are to take "agraz" and crush it in a mortar to extract the
juice, adding leaves of basil.
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:37:55 EDT
From: ChannonM at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: Poppa's mustard- mighty morphin cookers(daa da da, da da) LONG
> Scully says that must is grape juice that has been boiled down until
> syrupy. He uses undiluted frozen grape juice concentrate for his
> redactions. This might be a good thing to use for cooks not using
> alcohol. It was either Pliny or Cato that tossed the sealed bottles of
> must into the fish pond to keep them from spoiling, which also argues
> that must was not fermented.
Platina says on Grapes (Milham translation pg141)
Ex uva concocta in aheno sapa sit, ex puro et expresso musto in defrutariis
vasis defrutum. Mustum enim decoctum defrutum vocatur, unde et defrutare
mustum coqure diciums; sapa tamen defruti vice nonnumquam utimur in
condiendis pomis ac piris
"Condensed grape is made from grapes boiled down in a pot, while condensed
must is made from pure must which has been condensed in special defrutum
jars. Cooked-down must is called defrutum, from which we call to cook down
must defrutare, however in seasoning apples and pears we sometimes use
condensed grape in place of condensed must"
The translation "condensed must is made from pure must" leads me to believe
there are two different musts, one that has already been condensed, the other
not. In the recipe for Red mustard(according to Milham)
"Sinampim, passulas, sandalos, buccellas panis tostas, cinnami parum, aut
seorsum aut simul contertito, cvel molito. Trita cum acresta aut aceto cumque
modico sapae dissolvito, in patinasque per setaceum transagito. Hoc minu
praedicto concalefacit, ac sitim movet, nec incommode nutrit."
They key phrase is;
"Trita cum acresta aut aceto cumque modico sapae dissolvito
"When it is ground, soak with verjuice or vinegar and a bit of must"
The original recipe does not contain the word defrutum but contains the word
"sapae" which when doing some morphological research (sounds more impressive
than saying I'm looking in a dictionary ;), the word sapa(in lewis and short
dictionary) defined as "must, new wine boiled thick". This does not convince
me though that the original did intend defrutum as Platina indicates it is
evaporation and not boiling that reduces the liquid to make defrutum.
All of the following words are similar in meaning to sapa, so we have alot to
work with.
1 siraeum