fruits-msg - 2/2/14

Medieval fruits and fruit dishes. Recipes.

NOTE: See also the files: apples-msg, fruit-quinces-msg. sugar-msg, vegetables-msg, melons-msg, nuts-msg, pomegranates-msg, cherries-msg, berries-msg, fruit-citrus-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period fruits?
Date: 6 Dec 1993 21:30:37 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Mike Campbell <mike at aloysius.equinox.gen.nz> wrote:
>Can anyone tell me what fruits were in "common" consumption in Western 
>Europe during our period?

Apples, quinces, pears.
Plums of various kinds.
Medlars (which are in the quince family I believe; like persimmons
	they must be practically rotten before they are ripe).
Berries: blueberries (called "bilberries" or "whortleberries"),
	blackberries (called "brambles"), strawberries, and--so
	I'm told--cranberries, but I don't know if they're the
	same as the New World kind.
Grapes (seeded varieties).
In the south and around the Mediterranean: apricots, figs, dates,
	melons, peaches.

And probably more.

But no bananas or pineapple unless you get to Africa.

And I'm sorry -- no Kiwi fruit.  ;)

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu


From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period fruits?
Date: 7 Dec 1993 04:47:33 GMT
Organization: Cornell Law School

Mike Campbell <mike at aloysius.equinox.gen.nz> asks about period fruit, and
Dorothea answers:

> Apples, quinces, pears.
> Plums of various kinds.
> Medlars (which are in the quince family I believe; like persimmons
> 	they must be practically rotten before they are ripe).
> Berries: blueberries (called "bilberries" or "whortleberries"),
I believe the old world bilberry is a member of the same genus as the new
world blueberry, but smaller.
> 	blackberries (called "brambles"), strawberries, and--so
> 	I'm told--cranberries, but I don't know if they're the
> 	same as the New World kind.

The current commercial cranberries are New World varieties, but both Old
World and New World varieties exist.

> Grapes (seeded varieties).
> In the south and around the Mediterranean: apricots, figs, dates,
> 	melons, peaches.

Not only are apples period, some period varieties are still grown. In
particular, Rameau d'ete, aka Summer Rambo, is often available in the
Pennsic area about the time of Pennsic. The following list of period or
near period fruit varieties is from an article in _The Miscellany_ (also
T.I.).

Pre 1650 Fruits

             Apples		                
Calville Blanc D'Hiver (1627)	          
Court Pendu Plat (16th century–possibly Roman)
Devonshire Quarendon (1690)	
Drap d'Or (=Coe's Golden Drop?)	
Lady Apple (1628)
Old Nonpareil	
Pomme Royale	
Reinette Franche	
Roxbury Russett (Early 17th century)	
Scarlet Crofton	  
Sops of Wine	   
Summer Rambo (16th century)
Winter Pearmain	
Fenouilette Gris	
Golden Reinette	

         Peach
Grosse Mignonne (1667)

       Nectarine
Early Violet (1659)

        Pears
Buerre Gris (1608)
Rousselet de Reims (1688)
Bartlett (Williams Bon Chretien)  “of ancient origin”–may or may not be
pre-1600.

       Plums
Green Gage (Reine Claude)
Prune d'Agen

Dates represent the earliest date at which there is evidence the variety
existed. For sources see the article.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
DDF2 at Cornell.Edu


From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:13:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - Vegetarian dishes

Vegetarian Recipe 1
From "A Trewe Boke of Cokery, Vol.1, Vegertarian Recipts", pg. 1 by Lord Ras
al Zib

FRESH DATES NOT IN SEASON

1 Lb Dates, dried
1 Lg Watermelon

Cut a hole in the top of the melon large enough for your hand to fit through.
Save the cut out piece. Leaving all the juices inside, squeeze and remove the
pulp from the watermelon. Put the dates inside the watermelon. Replace the
cut out piece. Leave in a cool place for 24 hours. Take out the dates and
drain. They will be as fresh as if just picked. (Editor's note (Lord Ras)>
Not quite! But still rather tasty. Dried apricots, figs, prunes and/or
raisons also work well with this technique although the original recipe
specifies dates.)

From "The Baghdad Cookery Book, 1226 c.e., compiled by Duke Coriadoc of the
Bow; redacted and adapted to the Current Middle Ages by Lord Ras al Zib.

Lord Ras


From: "Maureen S. O'Brien" <mobrien at dnaco.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Haggis (was: tartan something...
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 23:06:48 -0700

ctas_dan at ACM.ORG wrote:
>You would have to be a very rich lord to afford vegetables let alone 
>fruit in winter.

Very true.  In fact, the word for fruits and vegetables in Irish 
translates as "summer food".  Granted, root vegetables store well
and so do apples, but how long would they hold out?  The Irish diet
in the Middle Ages was mainly meat, dairy and bread, with a few eggs and
such thrown in; the Scottish diet would no doubt be similar, even for
the rich.

Maureen, who likes all organ meat except liver from non-fowls, and was
raised to try weird things and clean her plate.


From: Philip E Cutone <flip+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:27:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - An Introduction and a question.

The domestroi mentions various ways fruits are preserved/cooked.

It mentions that Jellies may be given to the servents on sundays. (51)

preserve apples, pears, cherries, and berries in brine (63)

(66)it talks also of watermelons, melons, Kuzmin apples (seeming to be the
origin of candied apples, pour honey  syrup over whole apples),
quinces and appls (fermented in a bucket with honey syrup), Mozhaisk
cream (not mashed. soak apples and pears in a blended syrup, without
water. (not sure what they mean)) 

berry candy (66)(bilberries, rasberries, currants, strawberries,
cranberries, "or any other kind of berry". here is a quick rundown of
the instructions:
	Boil and strain through a fine sieve add honey and then steam
	the mixture till VERY thick, stiring so as not to burn. pour
	onto a board. smear the board repeatedly with honey. as
	mixture sets, add a second and third layer and twirl it around
	a tube. dry it opposite the stove.
my quick interpretation:
	cook the berries (use minimal water, or reserve the juice for
	mead/drinking later) Puree them and strain to remove
	seeds.(opt) add honey to your taste.  simmer on very low heat
	till thick. then pour onto a honeyed marble pastry board. 
	let dry a bit (perhaps in oven, not sure if this is good for
	marble) then add a second and third layer, letting set up some
	between layers.  dry in oven on lowest setting. cut as is or
	roll it and then cut it. die of sugar shock.

apple candy(66): about the same as berry candy, but it appears to be left
	"softer" (don't dry out in oven)

the parenthesized numbers are chapters, for the interested.

please note this was from a very quick browse through.... and typed
rather quickly as well... 

BTW it also mentions that pears and apples may be preserved in syrup
or kvass. (45) 

In Service to never letting the kvass thread die :)
Filip of the Marche


From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:10:25 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Roasted apples!

Jessica Tiffin wrote:
> I've just tracked down and devoured a copy of the Goodman of Paris
> (wonderful stuff).  He refers to "roasted apples" in many of his
> feast menus.  I'm assuming that this is a standard sort of baked
> apple - would anyone know precisely how they were cooked in period?
> i.e. cored and stuffed with nuts?  raisins?  sugar?  in a syrup?  I
> can obviously play around with period ingredients, but I'd really
> like to look at a recipe.

I'd have to go back and look at Le Menagier (I hadn't remembered the
recurring theme of roasted apples), but various late and just-post
period beverage recipes call for the "pap of roasted apples" to be
included. The impression those recipes give is that they are roasted in
the ashes of the hearth like eggs, and that the method works best with
stored apples that have become just a bit starchy: they pop open when
they are done.

I'm working from memory here, so please take this for what it's worth...

Adamantius


From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann)
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 17:42:28 GMT
Subject: Re: SC - Mediterranean Feast

While not as "Mediterranean" in style as Greece or Turkey, there are
an exceptional number of salads and fruit/veggie dishes listing in
"The Fruit, Herbs & Vegetables of Italy. An offering to Lucy, Countess
of Bedford", by Giacomo Castelvetro. The original is in Italian and
written in 1614 (just a hair post period). I tend to have the greatest
interest in Late Renaissance Italian cuisine, so this and Platina are
my current bibles. ;-) The copy I have is put out by Viking Press,
with Introduction and Translation by Gillian Riley (c) 1989 and
Foreword by Jane Grigson. ISBN 0-670-82724X. I am not sure if this
book is even in print any longer, but Amazon.Com was able to come up
with a copy for me.

The listings are
by season and then, generally, by fruit/herb/veggie. Oh, and one of my
favorites is the listing under Sweet Fennel (it has a seed that tastes
like licorice): "Fennel Seeds are gathered in the autumn. We flavour
various dishes with them, and eat them on their own after meals." So
now I always have a little dish with Fennel Seeds to "sweeten the
breath" after a feast. It just seems like such a nice little touch.

Honos Servio,
Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra
(mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX)
zarlor at acm.org


Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:43:29 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: SC - Fruit and Wine dishes - was re: RECIPE CHALLENGE II

Baron Tibor wrote:

> Memory tickles at me about a stewed prune and red wine dessert with carway
> seeds, that is period and YUMMY.... I cannot remember the source offhand.
> (Perhaps the encylopedia that is Adamantius will...  I gotta get my sources
> OUT of the attic and back IN the kitchen!)
> 
> What other "wine and fruit" recipes are there?  This is a wonderful
> combination.

I can't recall the specific reference to the dish you describe above,
but I'd be willing to bet it's caraway confits as a garnish. Dishes of
figs stewed in wine I know about. Also a pottage of Bullace plums and
wine, which I can't seem to find anywhere but know exists in some source
or other. As usual, I was just looking at it the other day, and now that
I actually need it, it's gone...

Adamantius


Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 08:04:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: A couple questions . . ..

> 3) What about subsitutions?   I am in the midst of gathering recipes for a
> killer menu for Crown Tourney this next weekend,  and I was thinking about
> the "Strawberye" but using cherries and Kirschwasser instead ('coz I have
> cherries) 

I can't speak for the Kirschwasser, but there are surviving recipes for
cherries.  In fact, the "Strawberye" recipe you're thinking of,
presumably the one from Harleian ms. 279, is followed IMMEDIATELY in the
manuscript by one for cherries.  So rather than adapting "Strawberye" to
cherries myself, I would use the 15th-century recipe whose author thought
it was similar enough to put them on the same page.

Strawberye: Take Strawberys, & waysshe hem in tyme of 3ere in gode red
wyne; [th]an strayne [th]orwe a clo[th]e, & do hem in a potte with gode
Almaunde mylke, a-lay it with Amyndoun o[th]er with [th]e flowre of Rys,
& make it chargeaunt and lat it boyle, and do [th]er-in Roysonys of
coraunce, Safroun, Pepir, Sugre grete plente, pouder Gyngere, Canel,
Galyngale; poynte it with Vynegre, & a lytil whyte grece put [th]er-to;
coloure it with Alkenade, & droppe it a-bowte, plante it with [th]e
graynys of Pome-garnad, & [th]an serue it forth.

Chyryoun: Take Chyryis, & pike out [th]e stonys, waysshe hem clene in
wyne, [th]an wryng hem [th]orw a clo[th]e, & do it on a potte, & do
[th]er-to whyte grece a quantyte, & a partye of Floure of Rys, & make it
chargeaunt; do [th]er-to hwyte Hony or Sugre, poynte it with Venegre;
A-force it with stronge pouder of Canelle & of Galyngale, & a-lye it
with a grete porcyoun of 3olkys of Eyroun; coloure it with Safroun or
Saunderys; & whan [th]ou seruyste in, plante it with Chyrioun, & serue
f[orth].

Notice the following differences:
1) the cherry recipe doesn't call for almond milk, currants, pepper, or
ginger; maybe the author and/or his patron felt that these flavors went
well with strawberries but not with cherries.
2) the cherry recipe, after being thickened with rice flour, is further
thickened with "a grete porcyoun" of eggyolks.  I don't know why the
author chose to do this with cherries and not with strawberries, but
lacking evidence to the contrary, I'd follow his lead.
3) the strawberry recipe is colored purple with alkenade, while the
cherry recipe is colored yellow with saffron or red with sandalwood.
4) the strawberry recipe is garnished with pomegranate seeds, the cherry
recipe with whole cherries.

I would start by following the cherry recipe as closely as possible,
using a known-tasty redaction of "Strawberye" to get a first
approximation of the quantities.  If I had time (which you don't between
now and next weekend), I would experiment with each of the above
differences and try to figure out why they are there.

					mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
                                                 Stephen Bloch
                                           sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu


Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:38:32 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - jam (was: A bit bland...)

Bogdan asked about a topping for a late period almond tart; someone
suggested peach jam and Charles McCathieNevile answered:

>Peaches are appropriate for England. But I don't know how they
>prepared/preserved them. I would imagine that something like jam was
>done. Has anybody checked the florilegium?
>Charles

According to _Food and Drink in Britain_ by C. Anne Wilson (very
knowlegable and reliable), marmelade in the sense of a stiff paste seems to
have been invented late in our period and "Sometimes soft fruits were
simply bruised and boiled quickly in sugar syrup without any sieving or
straining, and the resultant sweet compressed mass became vulgarly known as
"jam".  The word did not reach the printed cookery books until 1718, but
thereafter both the name and the method of preparation became common..."

So it is not clear if anyone would have been making jam by the end of our
period (though the almond tart this discussion started with is late
period).  I think the reason jam got invented so late was that earlier
sugar was an expensive import, used in spice-type quantities only by
upper-class people; even for them, using it in the mass quantities
necessary for preserving fruit would not have been a practical option.  By
Elizabethan and Stuart times a lot more sugar was being imported, and it
was being used a lot more and moving down the social scale.

Elizabeth/Betty Cook


Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:16:30 EST
From: melc2newton at juno.com (Michael P Newton)
Subject: Re: SC - peaches

According to Teresa McLean, in _Medieval English Gardens_ quotes a list
of fruit trees grown: "The Tower of London were planted by the royal
grdener in 1275 with:
       '100 cherry trees, costing 1s.6d.,
        500 osier willows, costing 4s.6d.,
          4 quince trees, costing 2s.,
          2 peach trees, costing 1s.,
            gooseberry bushes, costing 3d.,
          a quart of lily bulbs, costing 1s.,
          another peach tree, costing 6d.,'
she goes on to mention that "they were as expensive as quinces, and much
harder to cultivate successfully in England. They appear quite frequently
in Literature from the thirteenth century on, usually classed with the
exotic fruits" Also, Godfrey's 15th C version of De Agricultura advised
sprinkling their peach trees with goat's milk in order to get
pomegranates from them (Take that for what it's worth!) and that King
John hastened his death by indulging in 'a surfiet of peaches and ale' It
seems that going by "Gardens", that they weren't everyday sort of fruit,
but rather a royal indulgence.

Lady Beatrix


Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:01:12 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Apricot recipes?(was Byzantine Cooking)

Since I have Martha Washington's Booke of Cookery in front of me, here
are some recipe's from it.

Bear

TO MAKE APRICOCK CAKES

Take Apricocks, pare them & cut them in halves. & put them into a pewter
flaggon, & set them in a pot of boyling water and let them boyle till
they are tender.  then poure a little of ye Juice from them, then crush
them thorough a clothe till you leave allmoste noething in ye cloth.
you must streyn them into a glass, in which you must weigh them.  & to a
pound of them, take a pound and a quater of double refined sugar, &
boyle ye sugar to a candey height.  then stir in your apricocks, & let
it stand on ye fire till it be ready to boyle.  then put it into dishes
of what thickness you will, & when it is cold, put it into a stove until
it is hard candied over, then turne them upon plates & let them stand 3
or 4 days before you cut them.  then cut them into what fashions you
please.  soe dry them up, and after box them.

Note:  A flaggon is a large bottle shaped vessel fo 2 quarts capacity
that may well be closed.  Pilgrims originally carried wine in such jugs.

TO CANDY GREEN APRICOCK CHIPS

Take your Apricocks and pare them and cut them into chips, and put them
into running water with A good handfull of green wheat, before it be
eared.  then boyle them a little, after take them from the fire, and put
them in a silver or earthen dish with a pritty quantety of good white
sugar finely beat[en].  then set them over the fire till they be dry,
and they will look clear and green.  then lay them on glas[ses and put]
them in a stove A while, & then box ym.

Note:  Green wheat, like any grass, stains whatever it touched with an
intense green; it was a common coloring matter.  As noted, it must not
have started to ear, and it is to be strained out once the color has
been leached out.

TO PRESERUE DAMSONS OTHER PLUMS OR APRICOCKS TO KEEP ALL Ye YEAR IN A
QUACKEING JELLY

<see marmalades-msg>

TO MAKE OF PLUMS PEARS OR APRICOCKS A PASTE Yt SHALL LOOK CLEAR AS AMBER

<see marmalades-msg>

TO MAKE A QUIDONY OF APRICOCKS OR PEAR PLUMS

<see marmalades-msg>


Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:14:02 -0600
From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net>
Subject: SC - preserved fruits

>Looking through several late-period cookbooks, I'm finding lots of recipes
>for preserving fruits, and have the following questions:

Congratulations on finding my mini-hobby within sca-cooking! I find fruits
and preserves are vastly under-represented at our feast tables (preserved
food in general is under-represented). Preserved fruits are not necessarliy
hard to make if you have a little cooking experience, and the flavor they
deliver is worth the trouble. All in all, I have never had a bad experience
when serving a preserved fruit at a feast table.

You will have to be a little creative when using these preserved fruits. I
have noticed that there are numerous recipes for preserving fruits, but few
(almost none) using preserved fruit in a recipe. In some cases it is OK to
use the preserved fruit as you would fresh fruit (the character of the dish
will change slightly), but in others it just won't work.

>- - I read or was told by someone (wish I could remember) that Pippins
>referred to a specific type of apple which is no longer available. Anyone
>know if this is true? If so, what is the best sort of apple to replace them
>with. What about Costers, another (earlier?) term for apples? Are they also
>a specific type, or a generic term?

Small, round, red and hard (not to mention hardy). Less sweet (see large
amounts of sugar added to them for preservation). As for substitutes, I'd go
for the bags of cooking macs, ida reds or some such, wich are smaller, have
better flavor than the enormous ones, and more closely mimic a period sized
apple. Stay away from those so-called delicious varieties. They aren't.

>- - Same for the terms "Pears" and "Wardens". Are Wardens a specific type of
>pear?

A warden is a very hard type of pear. Your firmer-type eating pears would do
fine here, but be warned that they do not cook quickly. I once had to resort
to pulverising in a food processor when making a recipe for apple moyse that
called for wardens.

>- - How about "Damsins" and "Plums"?

A Damson (Damsins) is a type of plum you may be able to find today.

>- - Rasberries, raspiss, respass, rasps (all terms found in a single book)?

Raspberries are larger now. Wild raspberries (which were frequently hedgerow
fruits in period) make a good substitute. These are all words for the same
fruit.

Aoife


Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:24:03 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - currant sekanjabin (was rose sekanjabin/wa)

At 2:50 PM -0800 1/30/98, Crystal A. Isaac wrote:

>I've made the current sekanjabin two ways. One method is to get regular
>ole dried currants,...

>For better color and flavor, buy Hero brand Black currant syrup.

It is not clear from this whether Crystal realizes that she is talking
about two entirely different fruits. "Regular old dried currants," aka (in
period cookbooks) "raisins of Corinth," are a small raisin. Black currants
and red currants are a different fruit--the botanical name is "ribes." I
don't know which the period source she has referred to is talking
about--looking at it in the original might help. My dictionary believes the
ribes fruits got called currants because they looked like the other kind of
currants, and the name of the original currant derives from "Corinth."

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:45:35 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - currant sekanjabin (was rose sekanjabin/wa)

<< Black currants
 and red currants are a different fruit--the botanical name is "ribes."  I
 don't know which the period source she has referred to is talking
 about--looking at it in the original might help.  My dictionary believes the
 ribes fruits got called currants because they looked like the other kind of
 currants, and the name of the original currant derives from "Corinth."

 David/Cariadoc >>

This is correct so far as my research has lead me to believe.  Thankfully the
product sold in the market as "Dried Currants " is in fact the zante raisin
(e.g., raisins of Corinth). It still amazes me that this very universal period
ingredient is still sold commercially  and is relatively universally available
in the modern world. :-)

Ras


Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:20:47 -0700
From: "Stevens" <gto at verdenet.com>
Subject: Re: SC - sultanas

sultanas are golden raisins  ninkip


Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:33:03 -0600 (CST)
From: jeffrey s heilveil <heilveil at students.uiuc.edu>
Subject: SC - The last recipe

Here it is, Crispy Pear and Apple Sandwhiches, Care of Alia Atlas
The original:
10. Ein spise von birn (A food of pears)
      Nim gebratene birn und sure epfele und hacke sie kleine. und tu dar
zu pfeffer und enis und ro eyer. znit zwo dnne schiben von dnne brote.
flle diz da zwischen niht vollen eines vingers dicke.
      mache ein dnnez blat von eyern und kere daz einez dor inne umm, und
backez mit butern in einer phannen biz daz ez rot werde und gibz hin.

      Take roasted pears and tart apples and chop them small. And add
thereto pepper and anise and raw eggs. Cut two thin slices from thin
bread. Fill this in between not too full, of a finger's thickness.
      Make a thin leaf of eggs and turn that therein about and bake it
with butter in a pan until it becomes red and give out.

Recipe 10: Crispy Pear and Apple French Toast Sandwiches

copyright 1994 Alia Atlas

Apple and Pear Filling:

      1 pears, skinned, cored and chopped very small
      2 apples, skinned, cored and chopped very small
      1/4 tsp anise seed, ground
      1/8 tsp pepper
      1 egg

Mix apples, pears, eggs, anise and pepper together. This is used to fill
the sandwiches.

French Toast Sandwiches:

      3 eggs or 1 egg and 4 egg whites
      8 slices bread
      1 Tbsp butter

Preheat oven to 400 F. Beat eggs. Butter a foil-lined baking sheet. Make 4
sandwiches with bread and filling. Dip sandwiches into the beaten egg
lightly. This should be done quickly, so that the sandwiches
will not be soggy. Then put the sandwiches onto the baking sheet. Bake for
30 minutes, or until golden brown, turning halfway through (after 15
minutes).


Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:23:16 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Roman world - Apricots or Peaches

> The way my version of Apicius reads is that they had peaches in ancient Rome
> and not apricots (checked the latin recipe name with the dictionary -
> there's no mistranslation).
>
> Glenda Robinson

According to Trager's The Food Chronology, about 140 B.C. apricots and
peaches were brought out of China into the Near East.  About 65 B.C., Pompey
introduced apricots, peaches and plums into the Roman orchards.

The source is a questionable, but it gives a starting point for finding
meatier information.

Bear


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 00:37:38 +0000
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Rhubarb

And it came to pass on 25 May 98, that LrdRas wrote:

> So far as my research goes, it is pretty mush excepted that rhubarb
> was used as a medicinal plant. Outside of the personal experiences
> many of us have had with the medical benefits and the occasional
> mention of it in herbals, is there any basis in fact that rhubarb
> was used as a "food" plant during period?

In _Food and Drink in Britain_, it says that the variety of rhubarb
which was eaten as a fruit arrived in England from Italy in the 17th
century.  I do not know how early it was being grown/eaten in Italy.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:45:33 -0400
From: Nick Sasso <Njs at mccalla.com>
Subject: SC - Rhubarb as food reference

According to _Food in History_ (Tannahill, 1973), Rhubarb is of
Chinese origin.  It came west as a foodstuff via Arab and Rhadanite
Jew caravans (p.126).  She mentions it in a section describing the "new
walled city of Bhagdad" of the 8th century.

Not the world's greatest source, but a good suggestion.

niccolo


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:45:01 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Rhubarb as food reference

Just for fun, here is some etomology for the word rhubarb.

BTW, the handy quick ref says what we eat is Rheum rhubarbarum and that the
Asian varieties are Rheum officinale and R. palmatum and are used as
laxatives.

Bear

[Middle English rubarbe, from Old French, from Late Latin reubarbarum,
probably alteration (influenced by Greek rhêon), of rhabarbarum : rha,
rhubarb (from Greek, perhaps from Rha, the Volga River) + Latin barbarum,
neuter of barbarus, barbarian, foreign. See BARBAROUS.]
Word History: The word rhubarb may contain two hidden references to its
origins. The first of these is in the rhu- part of the word, which can be
traced back to the Greek word rha, meaning "rhubarb." According to the Late
Latin historian Ammianus Marcellinus, rhubarb was named rha because it grew
near the river named Rha, which we know as the Volga. The -barb part of
rhubarb was actually added first to Late Latin rha, descended from Greek
rha, in the form rhabarbarum, barbarum being the neuter form of barbarus,
"foreign." Another Greek word for rhubarb, rhêon, influenced the Late Latin
word rhabarbarum, giving us reubarbarum, which yielded Old French reubarbe.
The Old French form gave us Middle English rubarbe, first recorded in a work
written around 1390. In imitation of the way the Greek word rha is spelled,
an h was added, completing the long journey of this word into English from
the banks of the Volga in classical times.


Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:38:33 EDT
From: THLRenata at aol.com
Subject: Re:  SC - a question

Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book has a wonderful jam recipe (page 128 for
those who own the book):

To Preserve Plums or Gooseberries
Take to every pound of plums a pound of sugar, then beat it smal, & put so
much water to it as  will wet, then boyle till it bee sugar againe, then put
in the plums, & let them boile very softlie, till they be doone, then when
they bee cold put them up, if they begin to grow then set them where fireis in
a cupboard; you may doe respis this way & gooseberries, but you must boyle
them verie soft , & not put the up till they bee cold, & likewise may Cherries
bee doone as your gooseberries & respis.

Hilary Spurling has redacted the recipe:

Moisten the sugar with as little water as possible, say a quarter to half a
pint per pound, put it in a large thick-bottomed pan, and stir it over the
gentlest possible heat without boiling until it is dissolved. "Boyle till it
bee sugar againe" means boil the syrup hard until it reaches what cooks of the
period call "candie height" (240 degrees F, 115 degrees C on a sugar
thermometer), when it will chrystalize if you beat it.

I (this is Renata again) have made this several times with a variety of fruit
and it's scary but it works. You end up with a pan full of hot rock candy,
then just dump your fruit in and let it sit over the lowest possible heat. The
juice from the fruit re-melts the sugar, and needs an occassional stir and/or
chipping sugar away from the sides of the pan.

By the time the sugar has totally remelted, the jam is ready to set (test this
by putting a drop on a cold plate and pushing it -- if it forms a skin that
wrinkles, it's ready to set) without ever boiling the fruit, which improves
the flavor.

The resulting jam is wonderful, and a hot water bath is not necessary, as the
high sugar content keeps the jam form spoiling.

If it works for respis (raspberries) it should work for mulberries. How lucky
you are that you have enough to consider jam. The house where I grew up had a
mulberry tree and we used to love the berries it produced. None ever lasted
long enough for jam, tho.

Renata


Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 19:48:59 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - almond milk

> Interesting.  This is the same method one uses in Brazil (that again)
> to get coconut milk that they cook with extensively.  And the recipe
> calls specifically for thick milk (first squeezing) or thin milk
> (second squeezing).  I wonder when that practice started?  They
> certainly came in contact with coconuts fairly early, didn't they?
> Bear?
>
> Tyrca

From a quick check, coconuts are native to all the tropic regions of the
Pacific, and the point of origin has never been determined.

They make an appearance in Egypt about the 6th Century C.E., then make no
impact on the Mediterranean world until the end of the 17th century.  Marco
Polo mentions them as being cut open for food and drink, but makes no
mention of processing.  The references I have for processing coconuts date
commercial processing in the late 19th Century and don't mention the
techniques.

While the coconut was in South America early on, I think it is likely that
the coconut was introduced into Brazil by the Portuguese through trade with
the Spanish and the processing of coconut got started to compete with the
American coconut industry.

The quality of the answer suggests that further research needs to be
undertaken.

Bear


Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 00:13:40 -0500
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: Re: SC - Jellies vs. aspics

Genevia,

>> Would they have used the large amounts necessary to make jellies to do
this or would they have prepared them some other way for storage? <<

That's an interesting speculation.  We know they dried fruit, and used
the dried in tarts, with meat, in fritters...all sorts of ways.  A little
jam can go a long way and makes both a delicious and a pretty display.
In keeping with the humoral theory, that sugar was the perfect food, to
use some of the sweet jam would say very nice things to your guests, or
to your family and household.  Of course, the humoral theory seems to be
falling away just as preserves are really coming in.

Most of the nobles whose recipes we have had large estates, with orchards
full of fruit.  I don't think they'd find the use of enough fruit for
preserves to be out of keeping with good, economic use.  After all, a
dried apple is one apple--how much jam or conserve would you get for
adding the water or juice, the sugar, and whatever else you use?  And
there's the fact that some of the conserves--barberry, bugloss flowers,
rosemary flowers, rose leaves--all and more in Martha Washington's Booke
of Cookery--would not be likely to be used in other ways.  I think that
once we had access to sugar, and developed a thorough-going sweet-tooth,
the conserves, gellies, pastes, etc. were an established fact and the
cost was considered well worth it.  Other opinions?
Regards,

Allison


Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:58:44 -0500
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: Re: SC - coconut milk

http://sunsite.unc.edu/wm/paint/auth/burgkmair/st-john.jpg
 coconut trees?

The above URL takes you to a painting of St. John praying in a garden
under palm-type trees, and those certainly look like coconuts hanging on
them.  Much too large to be an artist's idea of date palms, or fig trees,
or something we know they knew about.  Take a look and see what you all
think.  If a German artist painted them in the Renaissance, they had to
be known, even if we don't find any recipes for them.

Allison


Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:28:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Vicki Strassburg <taltos at primenet.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Apple Butter Question

> Pear Butter? mmmmmmm.
>  . . .and the recipe is??? (impatient foot-tapping)

I'm not the poster, but I have an answer ... the same as the apple butter,
just switch the fruits. That's what I've done for years with whatever
fruit happens to be close to spoiling (unless it's bananas, then it's
bread). I've happened on some WONDERFUL things such as canteloupe butter
and pumpkin butter!

The way I was taught, "butters" are the basically fruit and sugar, cooked
down to a pasty consistency. Just when the sugar begins to carmelize, it's
done (that's what gives it the great rich brown color). Cold winter
mornings, warm fires, fresh bread, xxxx butter. Almost as good as warm
summer mornings, sunny porch, fresh bread and xxxx butter.  :-)

~Maedb


Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:56:31 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Apple Butter Update

> On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Decker, Terry D. wrote:
> > Since the chief difference between modern applesauce and modern apple butter
> > is the amount of sugar used, being heavy handed with the honey might get you
> > apple butter.
>
> I have a question on this. Since it's the sugar that sort of carmelizes
> and creates the "butter", wouldn't using honey affect that?
>
> ~Maedb

The full quote dealt with Appulmoy, a period dish.  The recipe gives no
quantities, so it could be made with a little honey or a lot of honey.
Since honey can do something that looks a lot like carmelization, the recipe
might produce something similar to apple butter.  I don't know, I haven't
tried it, and I am not as experienced with this particular aspect of cooking
as some of the other people on the list.

In case you wish to test the recipe:

Appulmoy.  Take apples and seethe hem in water.  Drawe hem thurgh a stynnor.
Take almande mylke and hony and floer of rys, safron, and powdor-fort, and
salt, and seeth it stondyng.

- --Forme of Cury

Bear


Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:45:34 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Apple Butter Update

taltos at primenet.com writes:
<< I have a question on this. Since it's the sugar that sort of carmelizes
 and creates the "butter", wouldn't using honey affect that? >>

Actually the act of ridding the apples of excess water and concentrating the
pectins creates apple butter along with the mingling of flavors from the
spices during the long slow cooking. I must disagree that apple butter is  the
same as apple sauce except for the sugar content. Apple butter can be made
(indeed, that is how I make mine) without any added sweetener.

Ras


Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:54:17 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Apple Butter Update

upsxdls at okway.okstate.edu wrote:
> I have a question on this. Since it's the sugar that sort of carmelizes
> and creates the "butter", wouldn't using honey affect that?
>
> ~Maedb
>
>   When I make apple butter, I simmer the mashed apples until enough liquid is
>   cooked off to make the "butter."  Same technique as making tomato sauce or
>   paste from fresh tomatoes.  A very low flame should be used to keep the
>   sugar from carmelizing. If using honey, logic says a longer cooking time
>   would be necessary, because honey is more liquid than sugar.  I have not
>   tried sweetening with honey - yet! :) Leanna of Sparrowhaven

For what it's worth, apples brown whether you add sugar or not (and so
do pears and quiunces). The apples themselves are oxidizing, and it
shouldn't be caramelizing sugar that gives apple butter its
characteristic brown. There's nothing to prevent the addition of sugar,
of course, caramelized or otherwise, but all the apple butter I've ever
seen came from Lord Ras's neck of the woods, and is made with apples
cooked down in apple cider, sans added sugar.

The reason apple butter is sort of creamy/pasty, rather than jelly-like,
is that the chemical reaction that causes pectin to gell is not
happening. You'd be more likely to get a sort of brown apple jam if
sugar in the proportions for jellies and preserves were added.

Adamantius


Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:35:39 EDT
From: korrin.daardain at juno.com (Korrin S DaArdain)
Subject: SC - Re: Kitchener

from Cariadoc’s Miscellany, Copyright © by David Friedman, 1988, 1990,
1992.

        Cuskynoles (English, 14th c.)
        Curye on Inglysch p. 52 (Diuersa Cibaria no. 45)
        A mete [th] at is icleped cuskynoles. Make a past tempred wi[th]
ayren, & so[th] [th] en nim peoren & applen, figes & reysins, alemaundes
& dates; bet am togedere & do god poudre of gode speces wi[th] innen. &
in leynten make [th] i past wi[th] milke of alemaundes. & rolle [th] i
past on a bord, & so[th] [th] en hew hit on moni perties, & vche an
pertie beo of [th] e leyn[th] e of a paume & an half & of [th] reovyngres
of brede. & smeor [th] y past al of one dole, & so[th] [th] en do [th] i
fassure wi[th] innen. Vchan kake is portiooun. & so[th] [th] en veld
togedere o[th] e zeolue manere, ase [th] eos fugurre is imad: & so[th]
[th] e boille in veir water, & so[th] [th] en rost on an greudil; &
so[th] [th] en adresse.
        Modernized English: A meat that is named cuskynoles. Make a paste
tempered with eggs, & so then take pears & apples, figs & raisins,
almonds & dates; beat them together & do good powder of good spices
within. & in Lent make thy paste with milk of almonds. & roll thy
paste on a board, & so then hew it in many parts, & each part be of the
length of a palm & a half & of three fingers of breadth. & smear thy
paste all on one half, & so then do thy filling within. Each cake is a
portion. & so then fold together of the same manner, as this figure is
made: [see above] & so then boil in fair water, & so then roast on a
griddle; & so then dress.
        Filling:
        one ripe pear (7 oz)
        one apple (Rome?) (7 oz)
        4 oz figs
        4 oz raisins
        4 oz whole, unblanched almonds
        4 oz pitted dates
        1 1/2 t cinnamon
        1 1/2 t nutmeg
        1 t cloves
        1/2 t ginger
        Wash and core apple and pear but do not peel. Cut figs into 2 or
3 pieces each. Use a food processor or mortar and pestle to reduce the
ingredients to a uniform mush.
        Pastry:
        1 1/2 c flour
        1/4 c water
        1 beaten egg
        Stir cold water into flour, stir in egg, stir and knead until
smooth. Roll out as two 12"x15" sheets. Cut each sheet into 10 6"x3"
pieces. Spread 1 T of filling on one piece and put another piece over it,
making a sandwich of dough, filling, dough. Using the back of a thick
knife, press the edges together to seal them, then press along the lines
shown in the figure, giving a 6"x3" "cake" made up of fifteen miniature
fruit filled ravioli, joined at their edges. Boil about 4 minutes, then
broil at a medium distance from the burner about 4 minutes a side,
watching to be sure they do not burn.

Korrin S. DaArdain
Kitchen Steward of Household Port Karr
Kingdom of An Tir.
Korrin.DaArdain at Juno.com


Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 14:28:22 -0600 (MDT)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - meat in mincemeat

On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Vicki Strassburg wrote:
> Good gentles, this brings up a question I have had ever since the year I
> bought 50 pounds of plums with which to make plum pudding. Then I looked
> at the recipe. I located a total of 9 recipes, ranging from modern to
> early 1900's. Not one of them contained plums. Did plum pudding *ever*
> have plums in it?
> 
> Maedb

the term "plums" (as in sugarplums, for example) tends to mean dried fruit
in general - raisins, currants, prunes, etc.

elaina


Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:22:34 -0000
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>
Subject: Re: SC - Summertime Cerulean Blue Sauce

>Excellent quote.  Could you please provide the title of the work?  I don't
>recognize the author.

John Ayto, British, author of many reference works, mostly concerning the
origin of words and names, like The Dictionary of Word Origins, The Oxford
Dictionary of Slang, some translations from Middle English I believe, and
the work I´m quoting from, A Gourmet´s Guide, which is mostly concerned with
the origin and development of food terms. A valuable and entertaining work
in my opinion, and one I´ve made much use of. For some reason it was earlier
published as both The Diner´s Dictionary and The Glutton´s Glossary.

Nanna


Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:21:52 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Dried Currants

> M'lord Ras,  I am a little confused here because I thought currants _were_
> dried.  How can one have dried currants then? :-)
>
> I wonder if the currants we use in recipes in Britain also Zante raisins?
>
> Also, where do sultanas fit into all of this?
>
> Elysant

Currants which are Zante raisins are always dried.  Currants which are the
fruit of genus Ribes may be fresh or dried.  Cultivation of Ribes is limited
because they serve as a host for white-pine blister rust (Cronartium
ribicola).  Sultanas are a small yellow seedless raisin originating in Asia
Minor.

Bear


Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:33:33 EST
From: Tollhase1 at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC -found recipe apple orange tart

Went through my stuff.  The Recipe came from The Good Huswifes Handmaid for
Cookerie in her Kitchen (1588).  I originally found this recipe on the net.
The original redaction is by Gretchen Miler (Margaret
Macduibhshite)grm+ at andrew,cmu.edu

for a tarte of apples and orange pilles.  take your orenges and lay them in
water a day and a night, then seeth them in faire water and honey and let
seeth till they be soft;  then let them soak in the sirrop a day and a night:
Then take forth and cut them small and then make your tart and season your
apples with sugar, synamon and ginger and put  in a piece of buttar and lay a
course of apples and between the same course of apples a course of orenges and
so, course by course, and season your orenges as you seasoned your apples with
somewhat more sugar, and lay on the lid and put it in the oven and when it is
almost baked, take Rose water and sugar and boyle them together till it  be
somewhat thick, then take out the Tart. and take a feather and spread the
rose water and sugar on the lit and let it not burn.

I am paraphrasing her redaction below:

9"  pie crust with lid.
6 medium oranges.  I used Valencia oranges, through though temple oranges,
blood oranges, and Seville oranges should all work as well.  Both
Bitter(seville) and sweet oranges were available during the 16th c.  Don"t
use Navel oranges: the skins are too thick.

Four cups water
1 1/3 cup honey
14 small Macintosh apples.  Any small cooking apple should do.
1 cup sugar
1 tsp. cinnamon
1/2 tsp. ginger
2 Tbs. rosewater
1 Tbs. sugar

Soak oranges in water 24 hours.  Put honey and water used to soak oranges to
boil in a large sauce pan.  Simmer until skins are soft.  When soft, place
oranges, Pour syrup over oranges and store for another 24 hours.  Add water
to completely cover oranges.

When ready to bake.  Preheat oven to F 350.  Slice oranges and remove the
seeds.  If the syrup has not completely saturated the rinds, boil the slices
in the syrup until saturated.  Chop the oranges into small pieces, and mix in
1/3 cup sugar, 1/2 tsp. cinnamon, and 1/4 tsp. ginger.  Peel, core and quarter
apples, mix with remaining sugar, cinnamon and ginger.  Place layer of apples
at bottom, then a layer or oranges.  Continue until full.  Put on lid, bake
for one hour.

Apx 10 minutes prior to being done mix sugar and rosewater to make syrup and
put on 5 mins prior to finish baking.

Tollhase comments:

I found that this recipe worked quite well, Although I found that I did indeed
have to boil the oranges to get them saturated.  Perhaps as she suggested, the
skins were too thick.

For feast (making lots of these) I plan on altering the recipe slightly.  I
will use Marmalade instead of boiling the oranges and season them with honey.
I will cut up a couple of oranges per pie and mix with the marmalade.  I use
powder forte to taste.  That means probably a tablespoon or more.  I plan on
preassembling them and then vacuum sealing them.  Bake them on site.  Still
feel that the smell of fresh baking pies and bread always makes one hungry.

Lord Frederich Holstein der Tollhase.


Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:51:06 EDT
From: THLRenata at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - query: Elizabethan jams

tyrca at yahoo.com writes:
<< One that caught my eye was a collection of "Elizabethan jellies" in
 jars on one shelf.  They had (as I remember) Lemon Curd and Honey,
 Orange Curd, Quince and Rose Petal, and some others that I can't think
 of right now.  On the label, it gives a -very- brief pseudo-history of
 the 16th century, and the item, such as (with quince) the Elizabethans
 thought of the quince as the fruit Adam and Eve ate in the Garden of
 Eden.

 Now my question.  Has anyone tried these?  Are they truly Elizabethan?
 Are these items that would be found on Elizabeth's table?>>

Lemon and Orange Curds are, unfortunately (because they are yummy!), a 19th
century invention. Quices and rose petals were made into jam in Elizabethan
times, but not IIRC together.  Fruits preserved in various textures in sugar
were very popular in Elizabethan times.  I have a couple of articles in the
Florilegium (did I spell it right?) on this very topic.  I think they're in
the Sweets section.

I've never tried the Cost Plus versions, 'cause my semi-local one only
carries the Curds, and I prefer to get my curds at Trader Joe's.

Renata


Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:49:43 -0000
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>
Subject: Re: SC - Tomatoes

From: snowfire at mail.snet.net <snowfire at mail.snet.net>
>I'm wondering then, if they called so many things apples, if the word
>"apple" or it's equivalent in other languages originally had a broader
>meaning like "round edible thing that is probably a vegetable" or
>something?

You are correct there. Most southern European languages do not, or did not
originally at least, distinguish clearly between "apple" and "fruit". Melon
in ancient Greek meant both apple and fruit. The Latin word pomum (the
source of the French word "pomme") also could mean apple or fruit.
Pomegranate, for instance, literally means "apple with many seeds" and in
the Scandinavian languages it is still called grenate apple (granatepli in
Icelandic). The German name for an orange literally means "apple from China"
(Apfelsine) and this has been carried over into the Scandinavian languages
also.

And in Iceland, where no fruits grew and none were imported, either, any
fruit was liable to be called apple - it was probably the only fruit most
people had even heard of but few had ever seen.

Nanna


Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:35:19 +0100
From: "Oughton, Karin (GEIS, Tirlan)" <Karin.Oughton at geis.ge.com>
Subject: RE: SC - Apple breeds?

> From: HICKS, MELISSA [SMTP:HICKS_M at casa.gov.au]
> Some friends of mine have recently bought a property/farm in rural Victoria,
> Australia.  They sent the following request for information on "period"
> apple species.  Can anyone here supply further info or suggest some
> avenues of research for them?
>
> Meliora.
>
> > ----------
> > From:       Kim & Ian Stanley-Eyles[SMTP:heathen at tpg.com.au]
> > To:         Meliora & Drake
> >
> > In the furtherance of our rural & mediaeval activities, we are thinking
> > of planting some apple trees in the orchard from our period (or
> > thereabouts) and ask if you have any information on these.
> >
> > Autumn Permain syn Summer Permain late 1500's England
> > Court Pendu Plat syn Wise Apple plus others pre-1500 Europe
> > Devonshire Quarrenden pre-1678 England possibly from France
> > Fenouillet Gris syn Carraway Russet 1608 France
> > Golden Harvey syn Brandy Apple 1600's England (Herts.)
> > Gravenstein possibly Schleswig-Holstein pre-1667 possibly Italy
> > Issac Newton's Tree (original tree unknown) c.1660 England (Lincs.)
> > London Pippin syn Five Crown 1580 England
I have the perfect answer for you, AND it keeps it in the family ; ) My
father in law was the director for the Brogdale Trust ( a charity) , which
hold the UK gene banks for apples, pears, plums, cherries, vines etc etc
etc....

Gerry said he had something like 4500 different varieties of apple trees on
site. They can provide information, seminars, root stock - you name it. They
have a web site at http://www.brogdale.org.uk/  - they run a mail order
service etc. I don't know about the legalities of importing stock into
Australia, but I'm sure they can help. I recommend just browsing through
their mail order service .......

And as an aside - if any one is looking for an interesting plum to plant,
the "transparent gage" gets my vote for the most bizarre fruit (hopeless
for storage though ) - it forms this beautiful huge fruit which is
transparent - when the sun shines through you can see the stone in it etc,
and when you bite, it just bursts in your mouth with an explosion of
flavour.......have lots of wipes on hand :)

Karin


Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:18:01 EDT
From: THLRenata at aol.com
Subject: SC - Elinor Fettiplace's Jam Recipe

Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book has a wonderful jam recipe (page 128 for
those who own the book):

To Preserve Plums or Gooseberries
Take to every pound of plums a pound of sugar, then beat it smal, & put so
much water to it as  will wet, then boyle till it bee sugar againe, then put
in the plums, & let them boile very softlie, till they be doone, then when
they bee cold put them up, if they begin to grow then set them where fireis
in a cupboard; you may doe respis this way & gooseberries, but you must boyle
them verie soft , & not put the up till they bee cold, & likewise may
Cherries bee doone as your gooseberries & respis.

Hilary Spurling has redacted the recipe:

Moisten the sugar with as little water as possible, say a quarter to half a
pint per pound, put it in a large thick-bottomed pan, and stir it over the
gentlest possible heat without boiling until it is dissolved. "Boyle till it
bee sugar againe" means boil the syrup hard until it reaches what cooks of
the period call "candie height" (240 degrees F, 115 degrees C on a sugar
thermometer), when it will chrystalize if you beat it.

I (this is Renata again) have made this several times with a variety of fruit
and it's scary but it works. You end up with a pan full of hot rock candy,
then just dump your fruit in and let it sit over the lowest possible heat.
The juice from the fruit re-melts the sugar, and needs an occassional stir
and/or chipping sugar away from the sides of the pan.

By the time the sugar has totally remelted, the jam is ready to set (test
this by putting a drop on a cold plate and pushing it -- if it forms a skin
that wrinkles, it's ready to set) without ever boiling the fruit, which
improves the flavor.

The resulting jam is wonderful, and a hot water bath is not necessary, as the
high sugar content keeps the jam from spoiling.

Renata


Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:27:16 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Berries

> A friend here in Sweden wonders if rhubarb, gooseberries and raspberries
> are period - does anybody know?
>
> Lady Uta, Nordmark

Rhubarb (Rhuem rhubarbarum, et al.) was known in Antiquity.  The word
rhubarbe was first used in English about 1390.  There are several members of
the genus Rhuem hiding under the rhubarb name.  Gooseberries (Ribes
uva-crispa) are European and have been used since the Neolithic.
Raspberries are both New and Old World.  The basic European stock is Rubus
ideaus.

Bear


Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 19:15:04 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Berries

> Bear wrote:
> >Rhubarb (Rhuem rhubarbarum, et al.) was known in Antiquity.  The word
> >rhubarbe was first used in English about 1390.
>
> But was it used as food? Every source I´ve consulted says the roots were
> valued for their medical uses, and the stalks maybe used for making rhubarb
> syrup, again for medical uses, but the stalks weren´t used as food until
> much later - not until about 1800 in England, even later in some other
> countries.
>
> Nanna

Gerard suggested that the leaves be eaten like spinach.  However this is not
recommended as the leaves contain concentrated oxalic and can be lethal.  It
also bodes ill for finding any rhubarb recipes beyond those for purgative.
Of course this wasn't in the notes I was using with my reference library far
away.

According to Waverly Root, rhubarb may have been known in China as early as
2700 B.C.E. as a medicine, which would give a few thousand years to turn it
into food.  But he gives no references for Asiatic use as a foodstuff.

Root also suggests that rhubarb may have been eaten in the Middle East,
based on a 13th quote by Ibn el-Beithar that rhubarb was "very common in
Syria and Persia . . . like chard, it has fairly thick stalks."
Circuitously, Root points out that the plant Ibn el-Beithar commented upon
is Rhuem ribes, the currant rhubarb (because it tastes like currants).

So, no Medieval rhubarb pie for Europe.

Bear


Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:01:21 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Medlars and Sorb Apples 

sheltons at conterra.com writes:
<< Can anyone who isn't horticulturally impaired explain what these are and whether they're still used today? >>

Sorb apples apparently are a variety that may have been grown by the Wends, a
Slavic people that inhabited East Germany, but I have been unable to verify
this info. Given the word is most likely a basis for sorb, I would venture to
guess that it also is a type of crab apple.

Ras


Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:06:06 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Medlars and Sorb Apples

Sorbs are the fruit of several different trees of the genus Sorbus in the
rose family.  S. domestica and S. torminalis are commonly referred to a
service trees and have brown fruit.  S. aucuparia is a rowan and has
orange-red berries.  I think the sorb apple may be the fruit of the service
tree.

Bear


Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 14:34:35 -0500
From: Jenn/Yana <jdmiller2 at students.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Pickled Cherries are Russian?

Bonne of Traquair wrote:
>earlier this summer I posted re: my experience making pickled cherries and
>making a drink syrup with the leftover pickled vinegar.  Someone stated that
>the pickled cherries were a traditional dish in Russia. I'd like more
>information on that if the person is still around, or if anyone else has
>heard this.

That would have been me!  I know that cherries were preserved in syrups and
in kvas in period, but I'm still looking for a vinegar-type preserving
technique.

From the _Domostroi_ (period sections only):

p152 Cherries in syrup

p154 Preserve pears and apples in syrup and in kvas, berry or cranberry
juice.  General admonishment to preserve fruit--fallen apples, cucumbers,
melons, and the like. (This could include cherries)

p155 "...put nutmeg in one little bag, cloves in a second, beneficial herbs
in a third...warm these on the stove and mix them with the mead...mix
cherry juice with warmed wine and put it in a jug, combine raspberry juice
and wine in a second jug, and add wine to prepared syrup in a third.
(okay, this only involves cherry juice.)

p176 Preserve apples, pears, cherries and berries in brine (either a salt
or a sugar solution, Pouncy says it was probably a honey and water sol'n, I
guess because of the previous mention of cherries in syrup)

So I haven't found anything yet with cherries in a vinegar-pickling
solution, just sweet brine or syrup and possibly a salt brine.  But as the
previous poster said, pickled cherries _are_ a _traditional_  food.

Yana (Ilyana Barsova)  jdmiller2 at students.wisc.edu


Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 21:01:23 GMT
From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com>
Subject: SC - Re: fruit vinegar drinks

Aoife said:
>My brother has some documentation that is colonial in nature. let me
>contact him and see if he has something earlier. He got interested from my
>experiments, and it's snowballed. Truth is, I've been doing this so long
>that I've forgotten my sources. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

I just found this last night, it's just a mention, not a recipe.  Does
anyone know if there a facsimile of the Fettiplace book?

"Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book - Elizabethan Country House Cooking",
Hilary Spurling, pg 209
"Lady Fettiplace made a liquor from equal parts white wine and white wine
vinegar, boiled together with sugar, in which 'To keepe Barberries all the
yeare'."

Barberries are defined on page 199:
"Barberries which, according toe Grieve's Herbal, are so sour even birds
draw the line at eating them, were often added to low-acid drab-coloured
fruits like pears or peeled quinces where a modern recipe would recommend
lemon or redcurrant juice.  ... They are a pretty fruit, tiny, drop-shaped,
coral-coloured, turning a clear ruby red when cooked; ..."

she goes on to say that the wild ones - Berberis vulgaris-have been almost
entirely eradicated in this century in England in an attempt to wipe out the
parasitic rust fungus, or wheat-mildew, to which it acts as host.  She
suggests that one plant a row of ornamental Berberis Wilsonae.

On page 208 she suggests that the American cranberry was liked by the
colonists because it reminded them of the highly prized barberry.

So, that places the general idea of sour berries pickled in a vinegar syrup
in England about 1600 and that's the closest I've come to the idea of
pickled fruit syrup as a drink concentrate.  How useful that is depends upon
your own opinions, but I know what I'm experimenting on when cranberries
show up in the stores.

>Oops, just remembered that the Miscellany (Cariadoc) has several under
>Sekanjubin, one of which it also states can be made from any sort of fruit.

I'll have to check that again, I must have missed it.  The Florilegium file
on jalabs has mention of these drinks, that's what started me off.  But
there's not even vague documentation.

I did place my cherry syrup and sekanjabin and for that matter, the pickled
cherries themselves out at the Pearl's review. My documentation was
basically a statement that I'd seen it mentioned but hadn't firmly pinned it
down, and I wrote down the Dara goldstein's statement from 'A Taste of
Russia' re: Peter the Great bringing the idea of pickled fruit back from
Holland.  One Pearl, actually made a comment on the paper that was left for
that purpose.  No criticism of the lack of documentation, just a comment
that the idea of drinking vinegar bothered him, but actually both tasted
pretty good.

The disappointing part is that the cherry syrup is all gone now. :-(

Bonne


Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:39:18 -0000
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>
Subject: Re: SC - Are Kumquats period

Lorix wrote:
>Firstly, are they period and, if so, how would they have been used in period?

They came from China and seem to have been known in Europe in the late 17th
century; the name was then spelled camquit or cumquat (from Cantonese kam
kwat, golden orange). I´m not sure if they were actually brought to Europe
then or if they were only known from travelogues.

Nanna


Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 06:58:35 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Are apricots period:  was Period Kinds of apples/Pears

Lorix wrote:
> I had thought that I had seen period recipes for apricots though :-)

You probably have. There are Apician recipes calling for them, as I
recall, and quite a few Elizabethan English preparations for them. I
wonder if perhaps they didn't travel well enough to end up in Northern
Europe in the Middle Ages, and so not in a lot of Middle English recipes...

Adamantius


Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:44:55 -0500
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Are apricots period:  was Period Kinds of apples/Pears

At 6:58 AM -0400 10/28/99, Philip & Susan Troy wrote:
>Lorix wrote:
> > I had thought that I had seen period recipes for apricots though :-)
>
>You probably have. There are Apician recipes calling for them, as I
>recall, and quite a few Elizabethan English preparations for them.

And medieval Islamic recipes, of course. Mishmishiya, from
al-Baghdadi, is one we are fond of.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:37:13 -0400
From: Angie Malone <alm4 at cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Period Kinds of apples/Pears

I have a copy of a volume of two pamphlets, called the Fruit Variety
Register 1580-1600, by Stuart Peachey.  Vol 1 is Apples - Mulberry, Vol. 2
is Nectarins-Walnuts.

  Some varieties that I have seen for sale in current times that are listed
in this book are:

   Pippins. (there were many different kinds of Pippins--red, yellow and
green)

   Greenings

I think both of these can be used as cooking apples.  I know you are all
wondering where I saw these.  I have to admit it beats the daylights out of
me, since we spend the fall picking up large quantities of 'storables for
winter' in a bunch of different places.  I would imagine it was one of
those fruit stand sort of places that are currently selling large
quantities of apples, pumpkins, squash, and onions.  I would check with any
local orchards in your area, if there are any.

I did a search on the net for Greening apples and found out there is a page
dedicated the  the Rhode Island greening which was 'created in 1796'.
Here's the url for a better description:
http://www.food.epicurious.com/c_play/c04_victual/apples/rhodeisland.html

I also searched for pippin here's the description in which they are
described as an all purpose apple:

http://www.food.epicurious.com/c_play/c04_victual/apples/pippin.html

I forgot to look yesterday when we visited Och's Orchard in Warwick, NY (we
went there for Staymen Winesaps).

I have to admit I hardly ever buy apples in the supermarket.  The only ones
I ever buy in the supermarket are Braeburn apples, they are currently my
favorite eating apple, although the winesap was very crisp and slightly
sour which was really tasty.

As far as Pears go, Russets was the only modern Pear name that I remember.

Angeline


Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 22:30:00 -0400
From: Nick Sasso <grizly at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Pomegranate seed

Deacon C Swepston wrote:
<<<SNIP>>>  The fruit was wonderful fresh.  Much more sharp/tart than
> the store bought variety and these aren't red.  They're more
> yellowish/orangish.
>                    Melusine

Mayhaps you have a bitter variety while the store sells a sweet
variety.  Platina (?) or someone refers to two or three types of
pomegranates, including sweet and sour varieties.  Could be worth
checking out; they'll have different uses I suspect.

niccolo difrancesco


Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:54:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>
Subject: SC - LIIWEEK:  Fruits of Warm Climates

This reference work may or may not be of some use to those whose interests
lie in the southern half of Europe:

Reviewed in LIIWEEK:
"    Fruits of Warm Climates -
    http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/index.html 
        This is the full text of a print title. Species are listed by
        common name under the botanical family name. Each
        entry includes description, illustration, origin and
        distribution, varieties, climate, soil, propagation, culture,
        pests, diseases, harvesting, life of plantation, storage,
        food uses, toxicity, other uses, and ornamental value. By
        Julia F. Morton, originally published in 1987."

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise	      jenne at tulgey.browser.net


Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 12:52:29 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - guava

The origin of the name guava is the word guayaba, which I think is either
Carib or Arawak, suggesting that the origin is further south than the
Bahamas. 

While guavas are commercially grown in Florida and California, I don't
believe they are native to either area.

If the guava made an early debut, it is probably recorded by Gonzales
Fernando de Oviedo y Valdez in his Historia general y natural de las Indias,
Islas y Tierra-Firme del Mar Oceano originally published in Toledo in 1526.
There is an early 20th Century Spanish edition of the book and there was
supposedly an English translation done in the mid 1980's.

Come to think of it, the guava may be mentioned in the Diario of Christopher
Columbus.  I'll have to check when I get home.

Bear

> Bear wrote in response to Olwen:
> 
> >Guava is a tropical New World fruit found in the Caribbean  islands.  So, it
> >is possible that it may have been used sometime after October, 1492.
> 
> Would it possibly be mentioned in the Lucayos cookbook from the
> Bahamas? I don't actually remember reading its name there, but
> I've not sat down and closely examined every page nor verified
> the veracity of the book itself. It might be worth a look, though.
> 
> Iasmin


Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:42:38 +0100
From: TG <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: Re: SC - guava

<< If the guava made an early debut, it is probably recorded by Gonzales
Fernando de Oviedo y Valdez in his Historia general y natural de las
Indias, Islas y Tierra-Firme del Mar Oceano originally published in
Toledo in 1526. >> (Bear)

Georg Friederici, in his "Amerikanistisches Wˆrterbuch", gives several
quotes from this and other works of Oviedo y Valdes ("la guayaba, es muy
linda fruta y apetitosa") and from various other early sources from 1520
onwards. According to Friederici, the origin is with the "Insel-Aruaks,
Insel- u. Festland-Karaiben, Tupis", then the Spaniards spread the fruit
and the word from there in other places (specified in some detail on p.
283).

Thomas


Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:12:57 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - guava

The 1520 date would be coincident with the early exploratory voyages along
the Brazilian coast (Cabral in 1500 and Correa in 1509).  The Arawaks
inhabited an area from the Guiana coast through the Greater Antilles while
the Tupis inhabit the Lower Amazon Basin.  If it was the Spanish who spread
the guava, it is more likely the fruit came from the Arawaks than the Tupis.

Bear

> and from various other early sources from 1520
> onwards. According to Friederici, the origin is with the "Insel-Aruaks,
> Insel- u. Festland-Karaiben, Tupis", then the Spaniards spread the fruit
> and the word from there in other places (specified in some detail on p.
> 283).
> 
> Thomas


Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:15:14 -0400
From: "Gaylin J. Walli" <gwalli at ptc.com>
Subject: Re: SC - guava and the Lucayos

>I'll try to check my copy of the Lucayos tonight after I return home and
>we can compare tomorrow.

Well, I checked through the cookbook and guava doesn't appear.
It occurs to be that no many people have even heard of this
book. I received a photocopy of the pages from my laurel
who didn't know anything about it other than someone had
sent her this copy.

According to the information on the photocopy, the book is
purportedly a 300-year-old manuscript brought along to the
Bahamas along with the earliest settlers. Many of the recipes
in the book are written in terms of things to preserve. The
photocopy has the early date of 1660 but it claims to be
much older. The Editor listed on the reprint is "Borden Clarke"
and the publisher, from what I can tell, is "Old Author Farms".

Anyone ever heard of it besides me? Can anyone confirm the
veracity of the book itself? It's got the etymological tone of
a near-period cookbook, to be certain, but I can't find any
history on the book at all, even online.

Iasmin de Cordoba, gwalli at ptc.com or iasmin at home.com


Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:09:50 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - guava and the Lucayos

The name Lucayos is derived from the Spanish name for the Bahamas, Los
Cayos.

A quick web search turned up one hit in the Margaret P. Hess Pamphlet
Collection at the University of Calgary.  The collection listed; The Lucayos
cook book, Morrisburg, Ont., Old Authors Farm, 1959; 95 pgs.

Other than that, there doesn't seem to be any information readily available.
Does the pamphlet peovide any other clues?

Bear

> Anyone ever heard of it besides me? Can anyone confirm the
> veracity of the book itself? It's got the etymological tone of
> a near-period cookbook, to be certain, but I can't find any
> history on the book at all, even online.
> 
> Iasmin


Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:07:36 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - guava and the Lucayos

Christopher Columbus' Diary doesn't mention guava.

Bear


Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:28:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - guava and the Lucayos

- --- TG <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE> wrote:
> According to http://copac.ac.uk, the Bodleian Library has a copy of the
> Lucayos cookbook; see the Copac database for the short title etc.; but
> nothing you do not already know, I guess.
> 
> Th.

Yes this book:

The Lucayos cook book : being an original manuscript  
... found in the Bahamas,  kept for 30 years to  
test-refine, from A.D. 1660 to 1690, by a noble  
family  of Elizabethan England ... containing some  
260 ancient and remarkable recipesand formulas for  
all manner of cookery ... . -- Nassau, Bahamas : Old  
AuthorsFarm, 1959.                                    
48 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. 

is in the Bodlean.  It is also in:

Library of Congress
Univesity of Iowa Library
New York Public Library
Univ. of Florida Library
Univ. of California, Berkeley Library
Los Angeles City Public Library
Brown Univerity Library

It appears to be rather post-period.

Huette


Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:26:26 -0400
From: harper at idt.net
Subject: SC - Baked apples

Sorry, I don't remember who asked for this.  Granado does have a 
recipe for baked quinces, which can also be made with apples.  It's 
inside a pastry crust, so maybe it's closer to an apple dumpling.  I 
don't have time right now to translate it, but here's the gist:
half-roast the apple on a spit, wrapped in buttered paper.  Core it, 
fill the hole with cow's butter or marrow, sugar, cinnamon, and a 
whole clove.  Put inside a pastry crust made of white flour, butter, 
and egg yolks.  Bake and then serve hot or cold.  The recipe calls 
this a tartlet (pastellito), and says to make the box (like the 
Spanish equivalent of "coffin") just big enough for the apple, so it 
might be more like an individidual pie than a wrapped dumpling.

Brighid, busy making peach pits to bring to EKU...

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)


Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:27:09 +1100
From: "Lee-Gwen Booth" <piglet006 at globalfreeway.com.au>
Subject: SC - Coconuts in Period

The question has been raised in this house about whether coconuts were used
in SCA period in Europe.  I have done some major searches on-line and have
come up with the following facts:

1) in 1280 the coconut is mentioned by Marco Polo who calls it an Indian
Nut;
2) It was first called a coconut by English explorers in 1555 because the
indentations on the base of the nut resembled monkey (coco meaning either
monkey or monkey face, I can't remember which.

Gwynydd 


Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:01:14 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Coconuts in Period

The first "Western mention I know of the coconut was in 545 A.D. by Cosmos
Indicopleustes, an Egyptian monk who visited western India and Ceylon.  In
his Topographia Christians, he describes it as the "great nut of India."
Marco Polo in 1280 described it growing in Sumatra, and Madras and Malabar
in India, calling it nux indica, the Indian nut.  The first detailed Western
description of the coconut palm was provided by the Italian explorer
Lodovico di Varthema in his Itinerario in 1510, where he referred to it as
tenga.  The name cocos is believed to be derived from the Spanish word
"coco" meaning "monkey face."  This was derived by the Spanish and
Portuguese explorers imagining that the inner nut's three spots looked like
a monkey face.

I've seen pictures of 16th century footed goblets the bowl of which was a
polished coconut.  For further information on this and other nuts check out
"The Book of Edible Nuts" by Fredrick Rosengarten, Jr.  I have a signed
copy, it's a great book.

Daniel Raoul


Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:53:28 -0600
From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com>
Subject: : SC - Coconuts in Period

Gwynydd asks:
>The question has been raised in this house about whether coconuts were used
>in SCA period in Europe.  I have done some major searches on-line and have
>come up with the following facts:

>1) in 1280 the coconut is mentioned by Marco Polo who calls it an Indian
>Nut;
>2) It was first called a coconut by English explorers in 1555 because the
>indentations on the base of the nut resembled monkey (coco meaning either
>monkey or monkey face, I can't remember which.

"Coco" in both Spanish and Portuguese  languages signifies a grinning
face.  Cocos nucifera (coconut) was first noted by the Portuguese in India
and was originally called "the Nut of India" by many early sources. The
Portuguese historian Oviedo Y Valdes (1478-1557) notes in La General y natural
historia de las Indias, the following:  'This frute was cauled Cocus for this
cause, that, when it is taken from the place where it cleaueth there are seen
two holes, and aboue them two other naturall holes, which altogether, doo
represent the gesture and fygure of the cattes called Mammone, that is,
munkeys, when they crye: which cyre the Indians caule 'coca'.'

From early Elizabethan times coconut shells were carved elaborately and
mounted in silver gilt frames as goblets and commemmorative pieces.  The
earlier ones on a trumpet base as flagons.   It seems doubtful however that
the coconut was in sufficient supply in period other than its use in oddity
pieces.  Culinary uses were not likely in Europe at this time.

Akim Yaroslavich


Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:55:08 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: : SC - Coconuts in Period

Akim, this is interesting because, IIRC, Gonzales Fernandez de Oviedo y
Valdes is Spanish and the book quoted is "Historia general y natural de las
Indias, Islas y Tierra-Firme del Mar Oceano," a text on the West Indies,
originally published in 1526.

If the quote is correct, then Oviedo is commenting on the Pacific coast,
because coconut palms occurred only on the west coast of South and Central
America at that time.

Bear


Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:03:36 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: : SC - Coconuts in Period

I see I might be misunderstood.  Coconuts in the New World occurred only on
the Pacific coast having been carried there by winds and currents and not
yet having been domesticated.

Bear

> If the quote is correct, then Oviedo is commenting on the Pacific coast,
> because coconut palms occurred only on the west coast of South and Central
> America at that time.
> 
> Bear


Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:12:25 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: : SC - Coconuts in Period

Was written:
>Coconuts in the New World occurred only on
>the Pacific coast having been carried there by winds and currents and not
>yet having been domesticated.

Odd historical note regards Palm Beach, Florida.  Legend has it called so
because coconut palms grew there.  Legend says that a cargo vessel with
coconuts aboard sank off shore and the coconuts were washed ashore and grew.
This occurred in either the late 16th or 17th century if I remember
correctly what I read.  Coconuts were apparently available in Colonial
America by the way.

Rosengarten writes regards the coconuts origin that it clearly orginated in
the Pacific Ocean but that there are two theories; an Old World and a New
World one.  It is apparently clear, according to him, that it was well
established on the Pacific coast of Panama before the first Spanish
explorers got there.  Paleobotanical evidence of fossil coconuts from the
late Tertiary exists in New Zealand.  The strongest theory in his estimation
postulates a western Pacific or eastern  Indian Ocean origin with a gradual
east and west spread either naturally via ocean currents or by man.  Vasco
da Gama in 1498 found it in Mozambique in East Africa.  According to
Rosegarten, "It is generally agreed that the coconut was not found in the
Atlantic Ocean basin until the Portuguese brought it there after 1500, when
they introduced the palm to West Africa and Brazil.  In the early sixteenth
century the Spanish carried it to the Caribbean."  He further states that it
was rapidly spread throughout the Caribbean and South America.

Daniel Raoul


Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:54:31 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: SC - Fruit Query

Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia wrote:
>I was browsing through the Tacuinum Sanitatis last night and came across an
>entry of "jujubes", a small fruit (the picture shows 2 people knocking plum
>sized fruits off a tree). Is this a name for some other fruit? I've never
>heard of it before.

Etymology:
Middle English, jujube fruit, from Old French, from Medieval Latin 
jujuba, from Latin zizyphum, from Greek zizuphon.

http://www.crfg.org/pubs/ff/jujube.html
http://www.vegweb.com/glossary/docs/80.shtml
The text on these two pages is similar but not identical - they have 
different recipes, too.

http://www.eat-it.com/jujube.htm

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/j/jujube10.html
has the entry from Mrs. Grieve's Modern Herbal from earlier in the 20th century

Apparently there is also commercial jujube honey from New Zealand and 
jujube wine from China.

I have seen the fresh fruit for sale in Asian food markets (around 
here we cover from Southwest Asia, South Asia, Southeast Asia, East 
Asia, and the various Pacific Islands)

Anahita al-shazhiyya


Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:19:17 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Fruit Query

The fruit is also called a Chinese date.  It's the fruit of an Old World
genus, Ziziphus, most commonly Z. jujuba.

Bear 

> I was browsing through the Tacuinum Sanitatis last night and 
> came across an
> entry of "jujubes", a small fruit (the picture shows 2 people 
> knocking plum
> sized fruits off a tree). Is this a name for some other 
> fruit? I've never
> heard of it before.
> 
> Al Servizio Vostro, e del Sogno
> Lucrezia


Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:35:02 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Fruit Query

Hersey's Jujubes?

I gather the fruit is pretty much like a regular date except that it can dry
on the tree.  You can make jujube candy by halving and seed the ripe fruit
then simmering it in a 50/50 mix of water and brown sugar for about 20
minutes and spreading it out to dry.  Not exactly a modern jujube though.

Bear

> I knew that jujubes are really a fruit, but I wonder if the original
> question about 'what else is it?' could be referring to those little
> fruit-flavored candies you get at the movies- the ones that stick in
> your teeth and you spend the film trying to suck them down from your
> molars?
> 
> 'Lainie


Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:06:32 -0800
From: "E. Rain" <raghead at liripipe.com>
Subject: SC - Jujube Fruit

somhow I missed this thread until today.
I was very excited on our trip to Europe this fall to discover jujubes at
one of the upscale groceries in Paris.  of course I bought them :-> sadly I
had no period recipes with me to try them in, so we just ate them raw to
know what we were dealing with.  they're kind of like bland hyper-pectiny
apples.  they start out with a green apple like skin (though shaped like a
large date) and slowly turn brown to look more & more date like.  Next time
I'll try & cook them.  No I didn't try to bring any home - I was going to be
in Italy another 3 weeks & bringing back foods through customes is
problematic anyway.

wonderful to know that you can now order the tree here in the States!

Eden - any year now I'm gonna start that medieval garden...


Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:48:07 -0500
From: "Michael Newton" <melcnewt at netins.net>
Subject: SC - coring fruit

> Speaking of glop, I encountered a dish of pears in syrup made for a
competition recently. The original recipe does not call for cutting, coring, or peeling the pears at all (in fact, none of the pears in syrup type recipes I've seen call for coring the pear, which is odd). The redactor had cored, peeled and cut the pears into small pieces and cooked it for some time-- the amount of wine in her redaction was minimal. Someone else pointed out that this recipe is usually done with pears peeled, cored and sliced in half, then cooked quickly. 

It occured to me that that is the way modern pears in syrup are served, and so we may be being overly influenced by 'tradition'. What do others think?
(The redaction was delicious but obviously somewhat similar to really chunky applesauce.)
> --
> Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise       jenne at mail.browser.net

They may have not cored the pear at all; the Czech vet at work always eats
his apple/pear, core and all. I also remember reading in _Pinniccio_,(the
book not the Disney version) that Gepedo warns his "son" to eat all of the
pear, including the core, since he might not have anything else to eat. Was
this a common thought during the Medieval ages? I don't know. But it could
be why their recipes don't call for coring the fruit. A waste not, want not
attitude.

Beatrix of Tanet


From: "Siegfried Heydrich" <baronsig at peganet.com>
To: <SCA-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:36:27 -0400
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fruit & nut resource

    I linked into this site - it's a good repository of info on fruits &
nuts. All mundane, but it gives an historical thumbnail of the species. Well
worth the look.

http://www.uga.edu/hortcrop/rieger/

    Sieggy


From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:22:32 -0400
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] fruit leather (was pesto)

On 6 Sep 2001, at 10:08, Jennifer Thompson wrote:
> Speaking of summer oversized harvests, has anyone had any luck making
> peach fruit leather? Puree fruit, add 1/4th as much sugar, let dry in
> slow oven, yes?

Granado's recipe for peach leather (Carne de Duraznos) calls for
one pound of sugar to two and a half pounds of peaches (two
pounds of peaches if they're not fully ripe.)

Comment at recent baronial meeting when I placed "peach flesh"
on the refreshment table:  "Cool!  Period rollups!"

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom


Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:59:18 +0200
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: Jessica Tiffin <melisant at iafrica.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gervase Markham's fruite paste

Gervase Markham has a recipe for something called "paste of Genoa" - as
follows:
To make paste of Genoa, you shall take Quinces after they have been
boyled soft, and beat them in a mortar with refined sugar, Cinamon and
Ginger finely searst, and Damask-Rose-water till it come to a stiff
paste; and rowl it forth, and print it, and so bake it in a stove; and
in this sort you may make paste of Pears, Apples, Wardens, Plums of all
kinds, Cherries, Barberries, or what other fruits you please.

Has anyone ever actually tried this?  I'm not sure if I should be actually
cooking the sugar/fruit paste in the oven, or drying it out like a fruit
leather.  Does anyone have a redacted recipe or any suggestions?

many thanks,
JdH

Lady Jehanne de Huguenin (Jessica Tiffin) * Drachenwald Kingdom Chronicler
Shire of Adamastor, Cape Town, South Africa


From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:55:56 -0500
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] torta of melons

On 4 Apr 2002, at 9:59, Susan Fox-Davis wrote:
> Perhaps unripe plums?  A Google search does not turn up the word
> "aluaricoques" in any document except the Flori-Thingie, of course!  I
> would guess "Aluariquoques" to be APRICOTS, according to Websters
> Revised Unabridged Dictionary 1913.
> <http://www.bootlegbooks.com/Reference/Webster/data/75.html>

Yes, apricots would be right.  "aluariquoques" == "alvariquoques" ==
"albaricoques".

Welcome to the wonderful world of archaic Spanish spelling.  The
"Arte de Cortar", which is a century and a half older than Granado,
is far worse.  "Figado" for "higado" (liver), and "rra=E7ilmente" for
"facilmente" (easily).

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom


Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:36:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] "Uncommon fruits worthy of attention"
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Just got this in through ILL:
_Uncommon Fruits worthy of Attention: A gardener's Guide_, by Lee Reich.
(NY: Addison-Wesley, 1991.

The book includes descriptions, sketches, history, cultivation, and use
information for the following fruits: Pawpaw, gooseberry, Nanking cherry,
medlar, juneberry, maypop, kaki and American persimmons, raisin tree,
black currant, elaeagnus, actinidia, jujube, alpine and musk strawberries,
currants, red and white, mulberry, lowbush blueberry, Asian pear,
Jostabery, and cornelian cherry. Also included are info on pollination,
siting and planting, pruning, propagation, and mail order sources. Well
indexed.

This is fascinating. I want to go out and buy a whole bunch of trees
now...

-- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika   jenne at fiedlerfamily.net


Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:11:50 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "Uncommon fruits worthy of attention"
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Yes, it's quite good. I got mine through the Garden
Bookclub. However pricing those trees and finding sources
is something of a bother. Some of the nurseries listed
 are no longer with us, so it takes more hunting.

Johnnae


Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 18:44:02 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: plums in plum pudding
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Makes sense, but I wonder at what point "prune" came to mean "dried
> plum", when it used to mean, to English-speakers, a variety of plum
> that frequently comes to us imported in dried form.
>
> Adamantius

Prunes are several varieties of plums, and modernly, particular hybrids
developed for drying.

"Prunus" (or "prunum") is the Latin for plum, as well as being scientific
name for the genera of plums.  It appears in a number of forms in European
languages.  Plum appears to be a derivative of the Latin neuter plural,
"pruna," apparently entering English from Old Low German.  Plum and 
prune are interchangable until late in SCA period.

The dried fruit was originally referred to as "dried plums" or "drie prunis"
(from a 14th Century reference).  By the 15th or 16th Century, prune was
being used to refer to the dried fruit.

Curiously, prune was also used to refer to raisins in Victoria's day.

Bear


Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:49:44 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] fruit varieties for cooking
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

It's also the question of regional varieties that grew better in a certain
valley or hillside. There weren't national markets and transportation
to ship local fruits halfway around the world at that point. As regards apples,
there were also varieties grown just for cider. The same goes for
pears and perry. There's an entire book entitled Pomona's Harvest.
An Illustrated Chronicle of Antiquarian Fruit Literature by H. Frederic
Janson which Timber Press put out in 1996 that examines the literature
associated with the culture of various fruits. The ideas about grafting and
different fruit varieties were in great demand during the Middle Ages and Renaissance and numerous books were written with regard to the best methods
and varieties for use.

Johnnae llyn Lewis


Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:09:44 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] where do I buy an indulgence for SCA-Cooks
To: Dianne & Greg Stucki <goofy1 at suscom.net>,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Share the recipe for the pears with cucumbers and figs please please,   
> please?

Ok, this recipe is from recipes section at the back of _Food and Drink
in Medieval Poland by Maria Dembinska & William Woys Weaver; Woys
Weaver, a modern ethnic food writer, wrote up the recipes section and
didn't actually include the sources for the experimentation that he and
Dembinska did to develop those recipes before she died.

He does say it "was mentioned in the records of the royal garrison at
Korczyn in 1389", and is "a conceit meant to imitate poached melon". If
you vary the recipe by including more honey and cooking a bit longer, it
makes a sweet dish which can be served with cream.

4 cups cucumbers, pared, seeded and diced (if you use pickling cukes the
taste is more piquant; long salad cukes give you a sweeter result)
1 cup dried figs, chopped
1 cup honey
1/8 tsp ground cloves
1/2 tsp ground cassia
4 cups under-ripe pears, peeled, cored & diced
1 tbsp rosewater

combine cukes, figs, honey and spices; cook over medium low heat,
covered, about 20 minutes. Add the pears and cook 5 minutes (he says) to
10 minutes (I say) and remove from heat-- the cukes and pears should
have a similar texture. Cool to room temp and add the rosewater (you
don't really notice the rosewater if you put it in, stir and then
refrigerate the compote overnight.

Can also be served hot (I say).
-- 
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net 


Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 14:05:16 -0500
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Any good Lamb recipes?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> it sounds great. Love Couscous too. I have heard of  but never used  
> jujubee's.  I am assuming i would have to special order them.
>
>   -Muiriath

I managed to find them at an oriental grocery store.  You might try
"googling" them.  Just be careful that you don't get the candy.  These
are usually dried, about 3/4 the size of dates, kind of reddish brown in
color, and the ones I've gotten have stones in them.  So they're a pain
in the "well anyway" to get off of the stones.  I'm planning to serve
this at an event I'm cooking in February.

Kiri


Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 07:47:51 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for info on mulberries and murrey
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Jan 18, 2006, at 12:44 AM, Stefan li Rous wrote:

> I got this question this evening from a Florilegium reader.  I can
> remember mulberries being discussed here only a little bit and the
> only "murrey" which I remember discussing there was the Arabian
> condiment "murri" made from rotten/fermented barley.
>
> I'd be interested in seeing any comments anyone has on period use
> of mulberries or this murrey. Please remember though to copy her on
> any messages on this subject, as she is not on this list.
>
>>      I've got a quick question about something I came across in a
>> book called "Uncommon Fruits Worthy of Attention" (by Lee Reich).
>> In the section on mulberries, the author says that in medieval
>> times, mulberries were used to make something called "murrey",
>> which he described as a pudding or a sauce for meats.  When I
>> tried to look for a recipe for murrey (on the Internet), all I
>> could find was the description of murrey as a color in heraldry,
>> not as a food at all.
>>      Can you shed some light on this for me please?  Thanks so much.
>>
>> In service,
>> Lady Corinna Lionwynde
>> (mka Sylvia Shults)
>> pompeii100 at yahoo.com

  From MS D, ff. 86r-96v, a.k.a. "Ancient Cookery", a.k.a. Book II of
"Curye On Inglysche", 'Diuersa Servisa', c. 1381 CE:

"37	For to make murrey, tak mulbery & bray hem in a morter & wryng
hem (th)orh a clo(th), & do hem in a pot ouer (th)e fyre; & do (th)
ereto bred & wyte gresse, & let yt na3t boyle non ofter (th)an onys.
& do (th)ereto a god perty of sugur, & 3if yt be no3t ynowe colowrd
brey mulburus; & serue yt for(th)e."

[37. To make murrey, take mulberries and crush them in a mortar, and
wring them through a cloth [puree/strain them], and put them in a pot
over the fire. Add white bread [crumb portion, soaked as for
thickener] and white grease [probably rendered lard], and let it come
to a boil no more often than once. And add a good amount of sugar,
and if it is not colored enough crush more mulberries, and serve it
forth.]

There's a series of fairly similar, generic medieval English
pottages, all based on crushed fruit (raspberries, strawberries,
cherries, etc.), all, for the most part, named for the fruit in
question. I see these as more like a thick fruit soup than the
puddings people often interpret them as -- there's no instruction
here to make the dish "standing" or "chargeaunt", so I'm not sure why
so many people assume it's supposed to be so thick.

Specifically regarding murrey, there's more than one such recipe
available, including an earlier one which appears to contain no
mulberries, but which is thickened like the rest and colored with
saunders to resemble a berry dish. Some versions of these pottages
specify meat (either calling for it as an ingredient or mentioning in
passing that the dish is to be poured over meat), and some don't, but
it's conceivable that the ones that don't mention it could still be
considered sauces.

Adamantius


Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:45:30 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Neolithic fig agriculture and storage find
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> So what is the advantage of growing a parthenocarpic plant, compared
> to the regular version? It sounds like they take more effort to raise
> than the regular version. Is it just the advantage of not having to
> deal with a seed?
>
> Stefan

You get more edible mass per fruit.  Just compare domesticated bananas with
the heavily seeded wild varieties.  Because parthenocarpy requires external
intervention to reproduce, it is often considered a sign of domestication.
In return for the effort, you get a greater yield.

Bear


Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 22:10:48 -0400
From: "Sam Wallace" <guillaumedep at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Uses for fresh apricots???
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< I'm looking for recipes (period or not) that make use of fresh apricots. 

--Maire >>>

I thought the shortcake recipes in Mrs. Lincoln's Boston Cook Book 
(http://digital.lib.msu.edu/projects/cookbooks/) looked interesting. Also, 
if you look in Rumpolt's work, you will find mention of candying apricot 
kernels (http://clem.mscd.edu/%7Egrasse/GK_zucker1.htm). I looked this up 
when I was doing a feast based in part on this work and found a couple of 
modern recipes, but did not keep my notes on that topic.

Guillaume


Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 15:57:20 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Can you identify the food?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com> wrote:
> Pomelos are introduced later too.
> Their skin tends to be more greenish.
> Like Bear, I would guess it's a Citron. I've seen both.

<<< I am 95% sure that there is a recipe involving pomelos in Granado
(1599).  I'll check when I get home.
-- 
Brighid ni Chiarain >>>

Pomelo is a 19th century English variant of the 17th Century Dutch 
"pompelmoes" or "pompelmousse."    Granado may have a recipe with pomelos, 
but you might want to double check original usage and translation in the 
Spanish.

Bear 


Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 23:32:09 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Can you identify the food?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<snip>

<<< Pomelo is a 19th century English variant of the 17th Century Dutch
"pompelmoes" or "pompelmousse."    Granado may have a recipe with pomelos,
but you might want to double check original usage and translation in the
Spanish. >>>

</snip>

Not sure how relevant this is, but I believe that pompelmousse translates
into grapefruit, although I'm blitzing on whether it's from the French or
the German. Living in Canada, although having studied German in High 
School in the US, gets my root words mixed up sometimes....

Ilsebet
-------

Pampelm?se is the German.  It translates to both grapefruit and shaddock 
(pomelo).  The Dutch "pompelmoes" appears to derive directly from the Malay 
"pumpulmas."  This suggests that general European knowledge of the fruit did 
not occur until the trading ventures of the 17th Century, which would have 
made for a rather fast migration from Asia to the Caribbean, as the fruit 
appears to have arrived there in the late 17th Century.

The essential issue is that the various forms of the word and their usage 
appear to be post-1600, which leaves the translation of any pre-1600 
reference to pomelos or grapefruit open to question.

It is possible that grapefruit or pomelos were introduced into Spain either 
by the Arabs or from Asia via Portugal and the spice trade prior to 1600. 
If the translation is accurate, then derivation and contemporary usage 
become critical in roughly determining what is being described and the 
history of the fruit in Europe.  According to some sources, the fruit was 
introduced to Spain by the Arabs.  I have yet to see a definitive argument 
for that opinion.

Bear 


Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 00:58:01 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Can you identify the food?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I dug out my copy of Granado (a modern transcription in Spanish), and
found I was mistaken.  The word is not "pomelos" but "toronjas".  I
can't find the magnifier for my micro-print edition of Covarrubias,
but I think "toronja" is a variety of citron.  In any case, it is
*not* a pomelo.  I apologize for jumping in before I check my
information.
-- 
Brighid ni Chiarain


Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:22:57 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Can you identify the food?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" <audreybmorin at gmail.com>

> Pampelm?se is the German.

And pamplemousse the French. And it translates as grapefruit. But
don't know the origins of the word - it could be German, for all I
know.
_______________________________________________

The derivation appears to be Malay to Dutch then into French, German and 
English.  The rise of the Dutch East India Company and the end of Spanish 
rule in the Lowlands both occur (IIRC) in the first quarter of the 17th 
Century during a period when Portugal was controlled by Spain, so linguistic 
transfer between Spain, Portugal and the Lowlands is a bit unclear.

The Malay "pumpulmas" may be derived from another as yet undetermined Asian 
language.

Bear 


Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:55:47 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Can you identify the food?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< I dug out my copy of Granado (a modern transcription in Spanish), and
found I was mistaken.  The word is not "pomelos" but "toronjas".  I
can't find the magnifier for my micro-print edition of Covarrubias,
but I think "toronja" is a variety of citron.  In any case, it is
*not* a pomelo.  I apologize for jumping in before I check my
information.
-- 
Brighid ni Chiarain >>>

Please don't apologize.  The current meaning of  "toronja" is grapefruit. 
And modern Spanish appears to differentiate between toronjas and pomelos.

I took a quick look at a couple of Spanish sites discussing toronjas.  From 
the little I was able to translate, toronjas originate in the Caribbean, 
which means the word may have been transferred to the grapefruit after it 
was hybridized from the pomelo.  The question is, what did the word mean in 
1599?  The similarity of toronja to naranja suggests that the word is a 
derivation from Arabic and if it was used to describe a grapefruit-like 
citrus in 1599, then it may be evidence of the Arabic introduction of 
pomelos into Spain.

The term grapefruit is a mid-19th Century American reference to a smaller 
variant of the shaddock, which suggests that equating "toronjas" with 
"grapefruit" is a relatively modern occurrence.

Bear 


Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 23:59:55 -0500
From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand at acm.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Persimmons
To: janemerrilees at yahoo.com,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> I have been gifted with a half gallon of small, wild persimmons.

There are several varieties of persimmon. If they are shaped like a  
tomato, then then they may be the ama kaki variety. These are quite  
yummy. Once they stop looking green and are instead a nice orange,  
all you have to do is cut them up and eat them.

Basically, I am writing about persimmons that look like this:

http://seoson.s88.xrea.com/autumn/archives/antenna10.jpg

Solveig Throndardottir


Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 07:41:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Jane Merrilees <janemerrilees at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Persimmons
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--- On Mon, 11/24/08, Audrey Bergeron-Morin <audreybmorin at gmail.com> wrote:
<<< Once they
stop looking green and are instead a nice orange, all you have to do is cut
them up and eat them. >>>

Actually... they're better if you wait until you think they're way too
ripe, that is, all wrinkled and splotchy. THEN, they're really yummy!
.....................................................................

You are right on the mark! Wild persimmons look very different than the asian variety in the link. I don't know about the taste, have been afraid of being disappointed at $1 each so have never indulged. The problem is there are too many for a type II diabetic to eat fresh. I have a wonderful family persimmon pudding receipe,I'm going to try with splenda. (Better than nothing.) But what to do with the rest? I'm a displaced Hoosier and was raised on this wonderful dessert. I was taken to the persimmon festival several times as a child. Foodie heaven.

Elspeth of Myrge Laese 


Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 08:24:59 -0400 
From: "Kappler, MMC Richard A" <Richard.A.Kappler at SWOS.Navy.Mil>
Subject: SC - re: cotignac

The other day you posted a modern recipe for cotignac (to which Akim replied
with a different spelling).  As I surmised the Monday, this recipe is period
and is indeed from _Two Fifteenth Century Cookbooks_, but called by a
different name.  

regards, Puck

Taken from _Two Fifteenth Century Cookbooks_ (Cookery Book II, Harl 4016, p
106) From His Grace Duke Sir Cariadoc's two volume collection of cookbooks,
p 77.

Chared coneys, or chardwardon.
Take a quarter of clarified hony, iij. vnces of pouder peper, and putte
bothe to-gidre; then toke 30 coynes & x wardones, and pare hem, and drawe
oute (th)e corkes at eyther ende, and seth hem in goode wort til (th)ey be
soft.  then bray hem in a mortar; if they ben thik, putte a litull wyne to
hem, and drawe hem thorgh a streynour; And (th)en put (th)e hony and (th)at
to-gidre, then sette al on the fire, and lete seth awhile til hit wax
thikke, but sterre it well with ij. sturrers for sitting to; and (th)en take
it downe, and put (th)ere-to a quarter of an vnce of puder ginger, And so
moche of galingale, And so moche of pouder Canell, And lete it cole; then
put hit in a box, And strawe pouder ginger and canell there-on: And hit is
comfortable for a mannys body, And namely for the Stomak.  And if thou lust
to make it white, leue the hony, And take so moch sugur, ar take part of
(th) one and part of (th) o(th)er/ Also in this forme thou may make chard
wardon.


Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:16:28 EDT
From: <KCNCRESS at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Old world Fruit

Okay, to elaborate on Teresa McLean's wonderful book, Medieval English 
Gardens...

Fruits, due to their fussy nature were not "esteemed" in the Middle ages.  
Common folk may have a fruit tree or two, larger estates may have had 
orchards.  Mention is made of apples, and crabapples as far back as 
Anglo-Saxon charters.  There are records of highly paid "grafters, and royal 
fruitiers" as early as the 13th Century.  Fruits were usually cooked, stewed, 
or juiced, rather than eaten raw, as we do.

Apples, pears, crabapples, grapes, cherries--Pliney mentions, as well as 1236 
roll for the Suffolk manor of Clare, strawberries--Lydgate in "London 
Lickpenney" late 15C London, nuts of all sorts, quince, peaches--planted at 
the Tower of London in 1275, pomegranets, figs, medlars--an interesting, ever 
so medieval, still in existance stone fruit, mulberries, plums, sloes, 
elderberry, bilberry, blackberry, gooseberry and raspberry.  All these are 
mentioned, along with costs of planting, areas of cultivation, interesting 
facts on preparation, storage, sale and cultivation.

And that's just from the chapter on Orchard, Fruit and Tree Gardens.

Dejaniera, Calontir


Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 01:06:06 EDT
From: <SNSpies at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Old world Fruit

OK, I've pulled out some references that I think may be of help in answering 
the question posed about "period" fruit.  Within each section, they are not 
listed in any particular order of importance.  

General References

1.  Hobhouse, Penelope.  "Plants in Garden History."  London:  Pavilion 
Books, 1992.

2.  Grieve, Mrs. M.  "A Modern Herbal."  New York:  Dover, 1971.

3.  Harvey, John.  "Mediaeval Gardens."  London:  B.T. Batsford, 1981.

4.  Landsberg, Sylvia.  "The Medieval Garden."  London:  British Museum, 1995.

5.  Janson, H. Frederic.  "Pomona's Harvest:  An Illustrated Chronicle of 
Antiquarian Fruit Literature."  Portland:  Timber Press, 1996.

6.  McLean, Teresa. "Medieval English Gardens."  London:  Barrie & Jenkins, 
1981.

7.  Arano, Luisa Cogliati.  "The Medieval Health Handbook:  Tacuinum 
Sanitatis."  New York:  George Braziller, 1976.
 
8.  Henisch, Bridget Ann.  "Fast and Feast:  Food in Medieval Society."  
University Park:  Pennsylvania State University Press, 1976.

9.  Gerard's "Herbal."  New York:  Dover, 1975.

Early Period References

1.  Virgil's "The Georgics."  Penguin or whatever version you can find

2.  Edwards, John.  "Roman Cookery."  Point Roberts, WA:  Hartley & Marks, 
1986. (or any other book that discusses Apicius and/or Roman food and cooking)

3.  Grant, Mark.  "Anthimus:  De obseruatione ciborum:  On the Observation of 
Foods."  Totnes:  Prospect Books, 1996.  (6th-century Gaul)

4.  Hagen, Ann.  "Anglo-Saxon Food & Drink:  Production and Distribution."  
Hockwold cum Wilton:  Anglo-Saxon Books, 1995.

For later-period information, consult the general references and/or any of 
the many recipe/food books now available.  Also, I would recommend reading 
through contemporary literature, such as Chaucer, Shakespeare, etc., for 
references to fruit.  
There are also many more specialized references that deal with places like 
Viking age Dublin and York, but I think you can find what you want on fruit 
from the references given above.

Mistress Ingvild


From: Dee Thompson <lonemuse2 at YAHOO.COM>
Date: December 21, 2009 12:45:50 PM CST
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: [CALONTIR] Mulberries

forwarded from the Grimfells list..
<<< Fionn
http://evil_fionn.livejournal.com
Hrothgar >>>

We do have native Mulberry trees here, they mostly grow closer to water, or in old growth fields, the multi-form leaves look similar to Sassafras, but have a toothy edge.  I would be happy to help folks find
some next year, if you want to try to make some wine.  The bark is also fantastic for making rope and cordage, and its easy to peel in the spring.  You have to be very cautious though, if the fruit is not fully ripe it is toxic, and if ingested could kill a child.  When it is fully ripe, it will be a purple-black color.  According to one of the classes I took while working as an Interpreter for the state parks, during the settlement of Arkansas, it was common for folks to plant Mulberry around the house until there was a rash of deaths from children eating the unripe berries. Unfortunately, they were replaced with Privet, a highly invasive species.

Brad Moore


Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 17:34:57 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Jujubes

<<< In the Great Courses, Food History class episode, "The Alexandrian 
Exchange and Four Humors" there is mention of a small fruit imported from 
the East called "Jujubes". "A tiny, little date-like fruit"

Did this fruit/interest in this fruit, die out before medieval times? If 
not, has anyone served this at an SCA feast? Where did you find it? The 
instructor does say that they can sometimes be found in western 
supermarkets.

Stefan >>>

Zizyphus jujuba, the Chinese jujube, is the preferred jujube.  Z. 
mauritania, the Indian jujube, and Z. lotus are less preferred in that 
order.  They can be eaten fresh, but are usually candied.  It has been 
served at various times in the U.S., but it is not a regular commercial 
import.  Since it is an ingredient of Eight Treasure Rice Pudding, you would 
be most likely to find it at an oriental market.

Bear

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	fruits-msg	Page 49 of 49