fruits-msg - 2/15/08 Medieval fruits and fruit dishes. Recipes. NOTE: See also the files: fruit-apples-msg, fruit-quinces-msg. sugar-msg, vegetables-msg, melons-msg, nuts-msg, pomegranates-msg, cherries-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period fruits? Date: 6 Dec 1993 21:30:37 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Mike Campbell <mike at aloysius.equinox.gen.nz> wrote: >Can anyone tell me what fruits were in "common" consumption in Western >Europe during our period? Apples, quinces, pears. Plums of various kinds. Medlars (which are in the quince family I believe; like persimmons they must be practically rotten before they are ripe). Berries: blueberries (called "bilberries" or "whortleberries"), blackberries (called "brambles"), strawberries, and--so I'm told--cranberries, but I don't know if they're the same as the New World kind. Grapes (seeded varieties). In the south and around the Mediterranean: apricots, figs, dates, melons, peaches. And probably more. But no bananas or pineapple unless you get to Africa. And I'm sorry -- no Kiwi fruit. ;) Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period fruits? Date: 7 Dec 1993 04:47:33 GMT Organization: Cornell Law School Mike Campbell <mike at aloysius.equinox.gen.nz> asks about period fruit, and Dorothea answers: > Apples, quinces, pears. > Plums of various kinds. > Medlars (which are in the quince family I believe; like persimmons > they must be practically rotten before they are ripe). > Berries: blueberries (called "bilberries" or "whortleberries"), I believe the old world bilberry is a member of the same genus as the new world blueberry, but smaller. > blackberries (called "brambles"), strawberries, and--so > I'm told--cranberries, but I don't know if they're the > same as the New World kind. The current commercial cranberries are New World varieties, but both Old World and New World varieties exist. > Grapes (seeded varieties). > In the south and around the Mediterranean: apricots, figs, dates, > melons, peaches. Not only are apples period, some period varieties are still grown. In particular, Rameau d'ete, aka Summer Rambo, is often available in the Pennsic area about the time of Pennsic. The following list of period or near period fruit varieties is from an article in _The Miscellany_ (also T.I.). Pre 1650 Fruits Apples Calville Blanc D'Hiver (1627) Court Pendu Plat (16th century-possibly Roman) Devonshire Quarendon (1690) Drap d'Or (=Coe's Golden Drop?) Lady Apple (1628) Old Nonpareil Pomme Royale Reinette Franche Roxbury Russett (Early 17th century) Scarlet Crofton Sops of Wine Summer Rambo (16th century) Winter Pearmain Fenouilette Gris Golden Reinette Peach Grosse Mignonne (1667) Nectarine Early Violet (1659) Pears Buerre Gris (1608) Rousselet de Reims (1688) Bartlett (Williams Bon Chretien) "of ancient origin"-may or may not be pre-1600. Plums Green Gage (Reine Claude) Prune d'Agen Dates represent the earliest date at which there is evidence the variety existed. For sources see the article. -- David/Cariadoc DDF2 at Cornell.Edu From: Uduido at aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:13:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC - Vegetarian dishes Vegetarian Recipe 1 From "A Trewe Boke of Cokery, Vol.1, Vegertarian Recipts", pg. 1 by Lord Ras al Zib FRESH DATES NOT IN SEASON 1 Lb Dates, dried 1 Lg Watermelon Cut a hole in the top of the melon large enough for your hand to fit through. Save the cut out piece. Leaving all the juices inside, squeeze and remove the pulp from the watermelon. Put the dates inside the watermelon. Replace the cut out piece. Leave in a cool place for 24 hours. Take out the dates and drain. They will be as fresh as if just picked. (Editor's note (Lord Ras)> Not quite! But still rather tasty. Dried apricots, figs, prunes and/or raisons also work well with this technique although the original recipe specifies dates.) From "The Baghdad Cookery Book, 1226 c.e., compiled by Duke Coriadoc of the Bow; redacted and adapted to the Current Middle Ages by Lord Ras al Zib. Lord Ras From: "Maureen S. O'Brien" <mobrien at dnaco.net> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Haggis (was: tartan something... Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 23:06:48 -0700 ctas_dan at ACM.ORG wrote: >You would have to be a very rich lord to afford vegetables let alone >fruit in winter. Very true. In fact, the word for fruits and vegetables in Irish translates as "summer food". Granted, root vegetables store well and so do apples, but how long would they hold out? The Irish diet in the Middle Ages was mainly meat, dairy and bread, with a few eggs and such thrown in; the Scottish diet would no doubt be similar, even for the rich. Maureen, who likes all organ meat except liver from non-fowls, and was raised to try weird things and clean her plate. From: Philip E Cutone <flip+ at andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:27:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - An Introduction and a question. The domestroi mentions various ways fruits are preserved/cooked. It mentions that Jellies may be given to the servents on sundays. (51) preserve apples, pears, cherries, and berries in brine (63) (66)it talks also of watermelons, melons, Kuzmin apples (seeming to be the origin of candied apples, pour honey syrup over whole apples), quinces and appls (fermented in a bucket with honey syrup), Mozhaisk cream (not mashed. soak apples and pears in a blended syrup, without water. (not sure what they mean)) berry candy (66)(bilberries, rasberries, currants, strawberries, cranberries, "or any other kind of berry". here is a quick rundown of the instructions: Boil and strain through a fine sieve add honey and then steam the mixture till VERY thick, stiring so as not to burn. pour onto a board. smear the board repeatedly with honey. as mixture sets, add a second and third layer and twirl it around a tube. dry it opposite the stove. my quick interpretation: cook the berries (use minimal water, or reserve the juice for mead/drinking later) Puree them and strain to remove seeds.(opt) add honey to your taste. simmer on very low heat till thick. then pour onto a honeyed marble pastry board. let dry a bit (perhaps in oven, not sure if this is good for marble) then add a second and third layer, letting set up some between layers. dry in oven on lowest setting. cut as is or roll it and then cut it. die of sugar shock. apple candy(66): about the same as berry candy, but it appears to be left "softer" (don't dry out in oven) the parenthesized numbers are chapters, for the interested. please note this was from a very quick browse through.... and typed rather quickly as well... BTW it also mentions that pears and apples may be preserved in syrup or kvass. (45) In Service to never letting the kvass thread die :) Filip of the Marche From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:10:25 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - Roasted apples! Jessica Tiffin wrote: > I've just tracked down and devoured a copy of the Goodman of Paris > (wonderful stuff). He refers to "roasted apples" in many of his > feast menus. I'm assuming that this is a standard sort of baked > apple - would anyone know precisely how they were cooked in period? > i.e. cored and stuffed with nuts? raisins? sugar? in a syrup? I > can obviously play around with period ingredients, but I'd really > like to look at a recipe. I'd have to go back and look at Le Menagier (I hadn't remembered the recurring theme of roasted apples), but various late and just-post period beverage recipes call for the "pap of roasted apples" to be included. The impression those recipes give is that they are roasted in the ashes of the hearth like eggs, and that the method works best with stored apples that have become just a bit starchy: they pop open when they are done. I'm working from memory here, so please take this for what it's worth... Adamantius From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 17:42:28 GMT Subject: Re: SC - Mediterranean Feast While not as "Mediterranean" in style as Greece or Turkey, there are an exceptional number of salads and fruit/veggie dishes listing in "The Fruit, Herbs & Vegetables of Italy. An offering to Lucy, Countess of Bedford", by Giacomo Castelvetro. The original is in Italian and written in 1614 (just a hair post period). I tend to have the greatest interest in Late Renaissance Italian cuisine, so this and Platina are my current bibles. ;-) The copy I have is put out by Viking Press, with Introduction and Translation by Gillian Riley (c) 1989 and Foreword by Jane Grigson. ISBN 0-670-82724X. I am not sure if this book is even in print any longer, but Amazon.Com was able to come up with a copy for me. The listings are by season and then, generally, by fruit/herb/veggie. Oh, and one of my favorites is the listing under Sweet Fennel (it has a seed that tastes like licorice): "Fennel Seeds are gathered in the autumn. We flavour various dishes with them, and eat them on their own after meals." So now I always have a little dish with Fennel Seeds to "sweeten the breath" after a feast. It just seems like such a nice little touch. Honos Servio, Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra (mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX) zarlor at acm.org From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 5-Jun-97 Re: SC - Period Recipes by rebecca tants at servtech.c > Just a thought - I can't imagine there not being something like this > somewhere in all of period cooking. Aluminum foil is out, but what > else might have been used. (My mind went straight to mexican and > american indian cooking in corn husks and mediterranian cooking in > grape leaves, btu I'm at a consulting job in another state and won't > see my cookbooks again until at LEAST Sunday...) In the Fruit, Herbs and Vegetables of Italy, Castelvetro mentions roasting peaches in the coals wrapped in damp paper--"Some people eat peaches cooked, wrapped in damp paper, and roasted in the ashes--These really are very nice". toodles, margaret Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:43:29 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: SC - Fruit and Wine dishes - was re: RECIPE CHALLENGE II Baron Tibor wrote: > Memory tickles at me about a stewed prune and red wine dessert with carway > seeds, that is period and YUMMY.... I cannot remember the source offhand. > (Perhaps the encylopedia that is Adamantius will... I gotta get my sources > OUT of the attic and back IN the kitchen!) > > What other "wine and fruit" recipes are there? This is a wonderful > combination. I can't recall the specific reference to the dish you describe above, but I'd be willing to bet it's caraway confits as a garnish. Dishes of figs stewed in wine I know about. Also a pottage of Bullace plums and wine, which I can't seem to find anywhere but know exists in some source or other. As usual, I was just looking at it the other day, and now that I actually need it, it's gone... Adamantius Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 08:04:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu> Subject: Re: SC - Re: A couple questions . . .. > 3) What about subsitutions? I am in the midst of gathering recipes for a > killer menu for Crown Tourney this next weekend, and I was thinking about > the "Strawberye" but using cherries and Kirschwasser instead ('coz I have > cherries) I can't speak for the Kirschwasser, but there are surviving recipes for cherries. In fact, the "Strawberye" recipe you're thinking of, presumably the one from Harleian ms. 279, is followed IMMEDIATELY in the manuscript by one for cherries. So rather than adapting "Strawberye" to cherries myself, I would use the 15th-century recipe whose author thought it was similar enough to put them on the same page. Strawberye: Take Strawberys, & waysshe hem in tyme of 3ere in gode red wyne; [th]an strayne [th]orwe a clo[th]e, & do hem in a potte with gode Almaunde mylke, a-lay it with Amyndoun o[th]er with [th]e flowre of Rys, & make it chargeaunt and lat it boyle, and do [th]er-in Roysonys of coraunce, Safroun, Pepir, Sugre grete plente, pouder Gyngere, Canel, Galyngale; poynte it with Vynegre, & a lytil whyte grece put [th]er-to; coloure it with Alkenade, & droppe it a-bowte, plante it with [th]e graynys of Pome-garnad, & [th]an serue it forth. Chyryoun: Take Chyryis, & pike out [th]e stonys, waysshe hem clene in wyne, [th]an wryng hem [th]orw a clo[th]e, & do it on a potte, & do [th]er-to whyte grece a quantyte, & a partye of Floure of Rys, & make it chargeaunt; do [th]er-to hwyte Hony or Sugre, poynte it with Venegre; A-force it with stronge pouder of Canelle & of Galyngale, & a-lye it with a grete porcyoun of 3olkys of Eyroun; coloure it with Safroun or Saunderys; & whan [th]ou seruyste in, plante it with Chyrioun, & serue f[orth]. Notice the following differences: 1) the cherry recipe doesn't call for almond milk, currants, pepper, or ginger; maybe the author and/or his patron felt that these flavors went well with strawberries but not with cherries. 2) the cherry recipe, after being thickened with rice flour, is further thickened with "a grete porcyoun" of eggyolks. I don't know why the author chose to do this with cherries and not with strawberries, but lacking evidence to the contrary, I'd follow his lead. 3) the strawberry recipe is colored purple with alkenade, while the cherry recipe is colored yellow with saffron or red with sandalwood. 4) the strawberry recipe is garnished with pomegranate seeds, the cherry recipe with whole cherries. I would start by following the cherry recipe as closely as possible, using a known-tasty redaction of "Strawberye" to get a first approximation of the quantities. If I had time (which you don't between now and next weekend), I would experiment with each of the above differences and try to figure out why they are there. mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib Stephen Bloch sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:55:07 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - A bit bland... Peaches (Prunis persica) were being cultivated in China before 500 B.C. They were traded into the Middle East after Jang Qian's diplomatic mission (to find allies against the Huns) into Central Asia in 140 B.C. In 65 B.C., Pompey had peaches transplanted to Rome from Persia. Apparently, peaches spread with the Roman advance to everywhere they could be grown in Europe. In 1513 C.E., the Spanish planted peaches in Florida and in 1618 C.E., English gardeners were warned not to prune peaches in England's cold climate. So, I would say peaches were available and eaten in much of Europe during period. Bear Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:38:32 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: SC - jam (was: A bit bland...) Bogdan asked about a topping for a late period almond tart; someone suggested peach jam and Charles McCathieNevile answered: >Peaches are appropriate for England. But I don't know how they >prepared/preserved them. I would imagine that something like jam was >done. Has anybody checked the florilegium? >Charles According to _Food and Drink in Britain_ by C. Anne Wilson (very knowlegable and reliable), marmelade in the sense of a stiff paste seems to have been invented late in our period and "Sometimes soft fruits were simply bruised and boiled quickly in sugar syrup without any sieving or straining, and the resultant sweet compressed mass became vulgarly known as "jam". The word did not reach the printed cookery books until 1718, but thereafter both the name and the method of preparation became common..." So it is not clear if anyone would have been making jam by the end of our period (though the almond tart this discussion started with is late period). I think the reason jam got invented so late was that earlier sugar was an expensive import, used in spice-type quantities only by upper-class people; even for them, using it in the mass quantities necessary for preserving fruit would not have been a practical option. By Elizabethan and Stuart times a lot more sugar was being imported, and it was being used a lot more and moving down the social scale. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:16:30 EST From: melc2newton at juno.com (Michael P Newton) Subject: Re: SC - peaches According to Teresa McLean, in _Medieval English Gardens_ quotes a list of fruit trees grown: "The Tower of London were planted by the royal grdener in 1275 with: '100 cherry trees, costing 1s.6d., 500 osier willows, costing 4s.6d., 4 quince trees, costing 2s., 2 peach trees, costing 1s., gooseberry bushes, costing 3d., a quart of lily bulbs, costing 1s., another peach tree, costing 6d.,' she goes on to mention that"they were as expensive as quinces, and much harder to cultivate successfully in England. They appear quite frequently in Literature from the thirteenth century on, usually classed with the exotic fruits" Also,Godfrey's 15th C version of De Agricultura advised sprinkling their peach trees with goat's milk in order to get pomegranates from them (Take that for what it's worth!) and that King John hastened his death by indulging in 'a surfiet of peaches and ale' It seems that going by "Gardens", that they weren't everyday sort of fruit, but rather a royal indulgence. Lady Beatrix Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:01:12 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Apricot recipes?(was Byzantine Cooking) Since I have Martha Washington's Booke of Cookery in front of me, here are some recipe's from it. Bear TO MAKE APRICOCK CAKES Take Apricocks, pare them & cut them in halves. & put them into a pewter flaggon, & set them in a pot of boyling water and let them boyle till they are tender. then poure a little of ye Juice from them, then crush them thorough a clothe till you leave allmoste noething in ye cloth. you must streyn them into a glass, in which you must weigh them. & to a pound of them, take a pound and a quater of double refined sugar, & boyle ye sugar to a candey height. then stir in your apricocks, & let it stand on ye fire till it be ready to boyle. then put it into dishes of what thickness you will, & when it is cold, put it into a stove until it is hard candied over, then turne them upon plates & let them stand 3 or 4 days before you cut them. then cut them into what fashions you please. soe dry them up, and after box them. Note: A flaggon is a large bottle shaped vessel fo 2 quarts capacity that may well be closed. Pilgrims originally carried wine in such jugs. TO CANDY GREEN APRICOCK CHIPS Take your Apricocks and pare them and cut them into chips, and put them into running water with A good handfull of green wheat, before it be eared. then boyle them a little, after take them from the fire, and put them in a silver or earthen dish with a pritty quantety of good white sugar finely beat[en]. then set them over the fire till they be dry, and they will look clear and green. then lay them on glas[ses and put] them in a stove A while, & then box ym. Note: Green wheat, like any grass, stains whatever it touched with an intense green; it was a common coloring matter. As noted, it must not have started to ear, and it is to be strained out once the color has been leached out. TO PRESERUE DAMSONS OTHER PLUMS OR APRICOCKS TO KEEP ALL Ye YEAR IN A QUACKEING JELLY <see marmalades-msg> TO MAKE OF PLUMS PEARS OR APRICOCKS A PASTE Yt SHALL LOOK CLEAR AS AMBER <see marmalades-msg> TO MAKE A QUIDONY OF APRICOCKS OR PEAR PLUMS <see marmalades-msg> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:14:02 -0600 From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net> Subject: SC - preserved fruits >Looking through several late-period cookbooks, I'm finding lots of recipes >for preserving fruits, and have the following questions: Congratulations on finding my mini-hobby within sca-cooking! I find fruits and preserves are vastly under-represented at our feast tables (preserved food in general is under-represented). Preserved fruits are not necessarliy hard to make if you have a little cooking experience, and the flavor they deliver is worth the trouble. All in all, I have never had a bad experience when serving a preserved fruit at a feast table. You will have to be a little creative when using these preserved fruits. I have noticed that there are numerous recipes for preserving fruits, but few (almost none) using preserved fruit in a recipe. In some cases it is OK to use the preserved fruit as you would fresh fruit (the character of the dish will change slightly), but in others it just won't work. >- - I read or was told by someone (wish I could remember) that Pippins >referred to a specific type of apple which is no longer available. Anyone >know if this is true? If so, what is the best sort of apple to replace them >with. What about Costers, another (earlier?) term for apples? Are they also >a specific type, or a generic term? Small, round, red and hard (not to mention hardy). Less sweet (see large amounts of sugar added to them for preservation). As for substitutes, I'd go for the bags of cooking macs, ida reds or some such, wich are smaller, have better flavor than the enormous ones, and more closely mimic a period sized apple. Stay away from those so-called delicious varieties. They aren't. >- - Same for the terms "Pears" and "Wardens". Are Wardens a specific type of >pear? A warden is a very hard type of pear. Your firmer-type eating pears would do fine here, but be warned that they do not cook quickly. I once had to resort to pulverising in a food processor when making a recipe for apple moyse that called for wardens. >- - How about "Damsins" and "Plums"? A Damson (Damsins) is a type of plum you may be able to find today. >- - Rasberries, raspiss, respass, rasps (all terms found in a single book)? Raspberries are larger now. Wild raspberries (which were frequently hedgerow fruits in period) make a good substitute. These are all words for the same fruit. Aoife Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:24:03 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: SC - currant sekanjabin (was rose sekanjabin/wa) At 2:50 PM -0800 1/30/98, Crystal A. Isaac wrote: >I've made the current sekanjabin two ways. One method is to get regular >ole dried currants,... >For better color and flavor, buy Hero brand Black currant syrup. It is not clear from this whether Crystal realizes that she is talking about two entirely different fruits. "Regular old dried currants," aka (in period cookbooks) "raisins of Corinth," are a small raisin. Black currants and red currants are a different fruit--the botanical name is "ribes." I don't know which the period source she has referred to is talking about--looking at it in the original might help. My dictionary believes the ribes fruits got called currants because they looked like the other kind of currants, and the name of the original currant derives from "Corinth." David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:45:35 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - currant sekanjabin (was rose sekanjabin/wa) << Black currants and red currants are a different fruit--the botanical name is "ribes." I don't know which the period source she has referred to is talking about--looking at it in the original might help. My dictionary believes the ribes fruits got called currants because they looked like the other kind of currants, and the name of the original currant derives from "Corinth." David/Cariadoc >> This is correct so far as my research has lead me to believe. Thankfully the product sold in the market as "Dried Currants " is in fact the zante raisin (e.g., raisins of Corinth). It still amazes me that this very universal period ingredient is still sold commercially and is relatively universally available in the modern world. :-) Ras Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:20:47 -0700 From: "Stevens" <gto at verdenet.com> Subject: Re: SC - sultanas sultanas are golden raisins ninkip Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:33:03 -0600 (CST) From: jeffrey s heilveil <heilveil at students.uiuc.edu> Subject: SC - The last recipe Here it is, Crispy Pear and Apple Sandwhiches, Care of Alia Atlas The original: 10. Ein spise von birn (A food of pears) Nim gebratene birn und sure epfele und hacke sie kleine. und tu dar zu pfeffer und enis und ro eyer. znit zwo dnne schiben von dnne brote. flle diz da zwischen niht vollen eines vingers dicke. mache ein dnnez blat von eyern und kere daz einez dor inne umm, und backez mit butern in einer phannen biz daz ez rot werde und gibz hin. Take roasted pears and tart apples and chop them small. And add thereto pepper and anise and raw eggs. Cut two thin slices from thin bread. Fill this in between not too full, of a finger's thickness. Make a thin leaf of eggs and turn that therein about and bake it with butter in a pan until it becomes red and give out. Recipe 10: Crispy Pear and Apple French Toast Sandwiches copyright 1994 Alia Atlas Apple and Pear Filling: 1 pears, skinned, cored and chopped very small 2 apples, skinned, cored and chopped very small 1/4 tsp anise seed, ground 1/8 tsp pepper 1 egg Mix apples, pears, eggs, anise and pepper together. This is used to fill the sandwiches. French Toast Sandwiches: 3 eggs or 1 egg and 4 egg whites 8 slices bread 1 Tbsp butter Preheat oven to 400 F. Beat eggs. Butter a foil-lined baking sheet. Make 4 sandwiches with bread and filling. Dip sandwiches into the beaten egg lightly. This should be done quickly, so that the sandwiches will not be soggy. Then put the sandwiches onto the baking sheet. Bake for 30 minutes, or until golden brown, turning halfway through (after 15 minutes). Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:24:04 +1000 From: "Glenda Robinson" <glendar at compassnet.com.au> Subject: SC - Roman world - Apricots or Peaches Niccolo wrote: > I'm not aware of any sources I have of peaches, but Apicius has > apricots in the ancient Roman cuisine. That should mean they came up > north at some point thereafter, at least in dried form. No certianty, > but those Romans shared their cultures with so many others that you > never can tell which way stuff went. Then there is the Hansiatic > trade league shooting all over the north European trade ways......they > proliferated many foodstuffs as well. Apricots would be a great taste > idea to go with a semi dry mead of final gravity around 1.035-1.040. The way my version of Apicius reads is that they had peaches in ancient Rome and not apricots (checked the latin recipe name with the dictionary - there's no mistranslation). There is also an extant fresco from Pompeii with peaches (p 104 - Still Life with Peaches - Pompeii - Lessing/Varone 1996 ISBN 2-87939-007-9) this book also has a lot of mosaics with fruit. Some of these fruits are easily identifiable, and others aren't. Some could possibly be apricots, but are not clear enough to positively identify. These yellow fruits are also much bigger (by comparison with other fruits in the same fresco) than the apricots we now get, so are unlikely to be them. That's not to say that this proves the Romans didn't have Apricots, but does prove they did have peaches. Glenda. Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:23:16 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Roman world - Apricots or Peaches > The way my version of Apicius reads is that they had peaches in ancient Rome > and not apricots (checked the latin recipe name with the dictionary - > there's no mistranslation). > > Glenda Robinson According to Trager's The Food Chronology, about 140 B.C. apricots and peaches were brought out of China into the Near East. About 65 B.C., Pompey introduced apricots, peaches and plums into the Roman orchards. The source is a questionable, but it gives a starting point for finding meatier information. Bear Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:59:44 -0700 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: SC - Peaches in Northen Europe Brokk asked about peaches in Scandinavia or northern Europe. C. Anne Wilson, in Food and Drink in Britain, mentions peaches being planted in the royal gardens at Westminster in the 13th c. It sounds from the context as if they might have been somewhat unusual in England at that time. By the end of our period (actually, 1629) someone in England listed 22 varieties of peaches. I don't have any information for Scandinavia, though. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 00:37:38 +0000 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: Re: SC - Rhubarb And it came to pass on 25 May 98, that LrdRas wrote: > So far as my research goes, it is pretty mush excepted that rhubarb > was used as a medicinal plant. Outside of the personal experiences > many of us have had with the medical benefits and the occasional > mention of it in herbals, is there any basis in fact that rhubarb > was used as a "food" plant during period? In _Food and Drink in Britain_, it says that the variety of rhubarb which was eaten as a fruit arrived in England from Italy in the 17th century. I do not know how early it was being grown/eaten in Italy. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:45:33 -0400 From: Nick Sasso <Njs at mccalla.com> Subject: SC - Rhubarb as food reference According to _Food in History_ (Tannahill, 1973), Rhubarb is of Chinese origin. It came west as a foodstuff via Arab and Rhadanite Jew caravans (p.126). She mentions it in a section describing the "new walled city of Bhagdad" of the 8th century. Not the world's greatest source, but a good suggestion. niccolo Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:45:01 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Rhubarb as food reference Just for fun, here is some etomology for the word rhubarb. BTW, the handy quick ref says what we eat is Rheum rhubarbarum and that the Asian varieties are Rheum officinale and R. palmatum and are used as laxatives. Bear [Middle English rubarbe, from Old French, from Late Latin reubarbarum, probably alteration (influenced by Greek rhon), of rhabarbarum : rha, rhubarb (from Greek, perhaps from Rha, the Volga River) + Latin barbarum, neuter of barbarus, barbarian, foreign. See BARBAROUS.] Word History: The word rhubarb may contain two hidden references to its origins. The first of these is in the rhu- part of the word, which can be traced back to the Greek word rha, meaning "rhubarb." According to the Late Latin historian Ammianus Marcellinus, rhubarb was named rha because it grew near the river named Rha, which we know as the Volga. The -barb part of rhubarb was actually added first to Late Latin rha, descended from Greek rha, in the form rhabarbarum, barbarum being the neuter form of barbarus, "foreign." Another Greek word for rhubarb, rhon, influenced the Late Latin word rhabarbarum, giving us reubarbarum, which yielded Old French reubarbe. The Old French form gave us Middle English rubarbe, first recorded in a work written around 1390. In imitation of the way the Greek word rha is spelled, an h was added, completing the long journey of this word into English from the banks of the Volga in classical times. Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:38:33 EDT From: THLRenata at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - a question Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book has a wonderful jam recipe (page 128 for those who own the book): To Preserve Plums or Gooseberries Take to every pound of plums a pound of sugar, then beat it smal, & put so much water to it as will wet, then boyle till it bee sugar againe, then put in the plums, & let them boile very softlie, till they be doone, then when they bee cold put them up, if they begin to grow then set them where fireis in a cupboard; you may doe respis this way & gooseberries, but you must boyle them verie soft , & not put the up till they bee cold, & likewise may Cherries bee doone as your gooseberries & respis. Hilary Spurling has redacted the recipe: Moisten the sugar with as little water as possible, say a quarter to half a pint per pound, put it in a large thick-bottomed pan, and stir it over the gentlest possible heat without boiling until it is dissolved. "Boyle till it bee sugar againe" means boil the syrup hard until it reaches what cooks of the period call "candie height" (240 degrees F, 115 degrees C on a sugar thermometer), when it will chrystalize if you beat it. I (this is Renata again) have made this several times with a variety of fruit and it's scary but it works. You end up with a pan full of hot rock candy, then just dump your fruit in and let it sit over the lowest possible heat. The juice from the fruit re-melts the sugar, and needs an occassional stir and/or chipping sugar away from the sides of the pan. By the time the sugar has totally remelted, the jam is ready to set (test this by putting a drop on a cold plate and pushing it -- if it forms a skin that wrinkles, it's ready to set) without ever boiling the fruit, which improves the flavor. The resulting jam is wonderful, and a hot water bath is not necessary, as the high sugar content keeps the jam form spoiling. If it works for respis (raspberries) it should work for mulberries. How lucky you are that you have enough to consider jam. The house where I grew up had a mulberry tree and we used to love the berries it produced. None ever lasted long enough for jam, tho. Renata Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 19:48:59 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - almond milk > Interesting. This is the same method one uses in Brazil (that again) > to get coconut milk that they cook with extensively. And the recipe > calls specifically for thick milk (first squeezing) or thin milk > (second squeezing). I wonder when that practice started? They > certainly came in contact with coconuts fairly early, didn't they? > Bear? > > Tyrca From a quick check, coconuts are native to all the tropic regions of the Pacific, and the point of origin has never been determined. They make an appearance in Egypt about the 6th Century C.E., then make no impact on the Mediterranean world until the end of the 17th century. Marco Polo mentions them as being cut open for food and drink, but makes no mention of processing. The references I have for processing coconuts date commercial processing in the late 19th Century and don't mention the techniques. While the coconut was in South America early on, I think it is likely that the coconut was introduced into Brazil by the Portuguese through trade with the Spanish and the processing of coconut got started to compete with the American coconut industry. The quality of the answer suggests that further research needs to be undertaken. Bear Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 00:13:40 -0500 From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) Subject: Re: SC - Jellies vs. aspics Genevia, >> Would they have used the large amounts necessary to make jellies to do this or would they have prepared them some other way for storage? << That's an interesting speculation. We know they dried fruit, and used the dried in tarts, with meat, in fritters...all sorts of ways. A little jam can go a long way and makes both a delicious and a pretty display. In keeping with the humoral theory, that sugar was the perfect food, to use some of the sweet jam would say very nice things to your guests, or to your family and household. Of course, the humoral theory seems to be falling away just as preserves are really coming in. Most of the nobles whose recipes we have had large estates, with orchards full of fruit. I don't think they'd find the use of enough fruit for preserves to be out of keeping with good, economic use. After all, a dried apple is one apple--how much jam or conserve would you get for adding the water or juice, the sugar, and whatever else you use? And there's the fact that some of the conserves--barberry, bugloss flowers, rosemary flowers, rose leaves--all and more in Martha Washington's Booke of Cookery--would not be likely to be used in other ways. I think that once we had access to sugar, and developed a thorough-going sweet-tooth, the conserves, gellies, pastes, etc. were an established fact and the cost was considered well worth it. Other opinions? Regards, Allison Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:58:44 -0500 From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) Subject: Re: SC - coconut milk http://sunsite.unc.edu/wm/paint/auth/burgkmair/st-john.jpg coconut trees? The above URL takes you to a painting of St. John praying in a garden under palm-type trees, and those certainly look like coconuts hanging on them. Much too large to be an artist's idea of date palms, or fig trees, or something we know they knew about. Take a look and see what you all think. If a German artist painted them in the Renaissance, they had to be known, even if we don't find any recipes for them. Allison Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:28:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Vicki Strassburg <taltos at primenet.com> Subject: Re: SC - Apple Butter Question > Pear Butter? mmmmmmm. > . . .and the recipe is??? (impatient foot-tapping) I'm not the poster, but I have an answer ... the same as the apple butter, just switch the fruits. That's what I've done for years with whatever fruit happens to be close to spoiling (unless it's bananas, then it's bread). I've happened on some WONDERFUL things such as canteloupe butter and pumpkin butter! The way I was taught, "butters" are the basically fruit and sugar, cooked down to a pasty consistency. Just when the sugar begins to carmelize, it's done (that's what gives it the great rich brown color). Cold winter mornings, warm fires, fresh bread, xxxx butter. Almost as good as warm summer mornings, sunny porch, fresh bread and xxxx butter. :-) ~Maedb Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:56:31 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Apple Butter Update > On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Decker, Terry D. wrote: > > Since the chief difference between modern applesauce and modern apple butter > > is the amount of sugar used, being heavy handed with the honey might get you > > apple butter. > > I have a question on this. Since it's the sugar that sort of carmelizes > and creates the "butter", wouldn't using honey affect that? > > ~Maedb The full quote dealt with Appulmoy, a period dish. The recipe gives no quantities, so it could be made with a little honey or a lot of honey. Since honey can do something that looks a lot like carmelization, the recipe might produce something similar to apple butter. I don't know, I haven't tried it, and I am not as experienced with this particular aspect of cooking as some of the other people on the list. In case you wish to test the recipe: Appulmoy. Take apples and seethe hem in water. Drawe hem thurgh a stynnor. Take almande mylke and hony and floer of rys, safron, and powdor-fort, and salt, and seeth it stondyng. - --Forme of Cury Bear Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:45:34 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Apple Butter Update taltos at primenet.com writes: << I have a question on this. Since it's the sugar that sort of carmelizes and creates the "butter", wouldn't using honey affect that? >> Actually the act of ridding the apples of excess water and concentrating the pectins creates apple butter along with the mingling of flavors from the spices during the long slow cooking. I must disagree that apple butter is the same as apple sauce except for the sugar content. Apple butter can be made (indeed, that is how I make mine) without any added sweetener. Ras Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:54:17 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Apple Butter Update upsxdls at okway.okstate.edu wrote: > I have a question on this. Since it's the sugar that sort of carmelizes > and creates the "butter", wouldn't using honey affect that? > > ~Maedb > > When I make apple butter, I simmer the mashed apples until enough liquid is > cooked off to make the "butter." Same technique as making tomato sauce or > paste from fresh tomatoes. A very low flame should be used to keep the > sugar from carmelizing. If using honey, logic says a longer cooking time > would be necessary, because honey is more liquid than sugar. I have not > tried sweetening with honey - yet! :) Leanna of Sparrowhaven For what it's worth, apples brown whether you add sugar or not (and so do pears and quiunces). The apples themselves are oxidizing, and it shouldn't be caramelizing sugar that gives apple butter its characteristic brown. There's nothing to prevent the addition of sugar, of course, caramelized or otherwise, but all the apple butter I've ever seen came from Lord Ras's neck of the woods, and is made with apples cooked down in apple cider, sans added sugar. The reason apple butter is sort of creamy/pasty, rather than jelly-like, is that the chemical reaction that causes pectin to gell is not happening. You'd be more likely to get a sort of brown apple jam if sugar in the proportions for jellies and preserves were added. Adamantius Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:35:39 EDT From: korrin.daardain at juno.com (Korrin S DaArdain) Subject: SC - Re: Kitchener from Cariadoc's Miscellany, Copyright by David Friedman, 1988, 1990, 1992. Cuskynoles (English, 14th c.) Curye on Inglysch p. 52 (Diuersa Cibaria no. 45) A mete [th] at is icleped cuskynoles. Make a past tempred wi[th] ayren, & so[th] [th] en nim peoren & applen, figes & reysins, alemaundes & dates; bet am togedere & do god poudre of gode speces wi[th] innen. & in leynten make [th] i past wi[th] milke of alemaundes. & rolle [th] i past on a bord, & so[th] [th] en hew hit on moni perties, & vche an pertie beo of [th] e leyn[th] e of a paume & an half & of [th] reovyngres of brede. & smeor [th] y past al of one dole, & so[th] [th] en do [th] i fassure wi[th] innen. Vchan kake is portiooun. & so[th] [th] en veld togedere o[th] e zeolue manere, ase [th] eos fugurre is imad: & so[th] [th] e boille in veir water, & so[th] [th] en rost on an greudil; & so[th] [th] en adresse. Modernized English: A meat that is named cuskynoles. Make a paste tempered with eggs, & so then take pears & apples, figs & raisins, almonds & dates; beat them together & do good powder of good spices within. & in Lent make thy paste with milk of almonds. & roll thy paste on a board, & so then hew it in many parts, & each part be of the length of a palm & a half & of three fingers of breadth. & smear thy paste all on one half, & so then do thy filling within. Each cake is a portion. & so then fold together of the same manner, as this figure is made: [see above] & so then boil in fair water, & so then roast on a griddle; & so then dress. Filling: one ripe pear (7 oz) one apple (Rome?) (7 oz) 4 oz figs 4 oz raisins 4 oz whole, unblanched almonds 4 oz pitted dates 1 1/2 t cinnamon 1 1/2 t nutmeg 1 t cloves 1/2 t ginger Wash and core apple and pear but do not peel. Cut figs into 2 or 3 pieces each. Use a food processor or mortar and pestle to reduce the ingredients to a uniform mush. Pastry: 1 1/2 c flour 1/4 c water 1 beaten egg Stir cold water into flour, stir in egg, stir and knead until smooth. Roll out as two 12"x15" sheets. Cut each sheet into 10 6"x3" pieces. Spread 1 T of filling on one piece and put another piece over it, making a sandwich of dough, filling, dough. Using the back of a thick knife, press the edges together to seal them, then press along the lines shown in the figure, giving a 6"x3" "cake" made up of fifteen miniature fruit filled ravioli, joined at their edges. Boil about 4 minutes, then broil at a medium distance from the burner about 4 minutes a side, watching to be sure they do not burn. Korrin S. DaArdain Kitchen Steward of Household Port Karr Kingdom of An Tir. Korrin.DaArdain at Juno.com Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 14:28:22 -0600 (MDT) From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com> Subject: Re: SC - meat in mincemeat On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Vicki Strassburg wrote: > Good gentles, this brings up a question I have had ever since the year I > bought 50 pounds of plums with which to make plum pudding. Then I looked > at the recipe. I located a total of 9 recipes, ranging from modern to > early 1900's. Not one of them contained plums. Did plum pudding *ever* > have plums in it? > > Maedb the term "plums" (as in sugarplums, for example) tends to mean dried fruit in general - raisins, currants, prunes, etc. elaina Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:22:34 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is> Subject: Re: SC - Summertime Cerulean Blue Sauce >Excellent quote. Could you please provide the title of the work? I don't >recognize the author. John Ayto, British, author of many reference works, mostly concerning the origin of words and names, like The Dictionary of Word Origins, The Oxford Dictionary of Slang, some translations from Middle English I believe, and the work Im quoting from, A Gourmets Guide, which is mostly concerned with the origin and development of food terms. A valuable and entertaining work in my opinion, and one Ive made much use of. For some reason it was earlier published as both The Diners Dictionary and The Gluttons Glossary. Nanna Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:21:52 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Dried Currants > M'lord Ras, I am a little confused here because I thought currants _were_ > dried. How can one have dried currants then? :-) > > I wonder if the currants we use in recipes in Britain also Zante raisins? > > Also, where do sultanas fit into all of this? > > Elysant Currants which are Zante raisins are always dried. Currants which are the fruit of genus Ribes may be fresh or dried. Cultivation of Ribes is limited because they serve as a host for white-pine blister rust (Cronartium ribicola). Sultanas are a small yellow seedless raisin originating in Asia Minor. Bear Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:33:33 EST From: Tollhase1 at aol.com Subject: Re: SC -found recipe apple orange tart Went through my stuff. The Recipe came from The Good Huswifes Handmaid for Cookerie in her Kitchen (1588). I originally found this recipe on the net. The original redaction is by Gretchen Miler (Margaret Macduibhshite)grm+ at andrew,cmu.edu for a tarte of apples and orange pilles. take your orenges and lay them in water a day and a night, then seeth them in faire water and honey and let seeth till they be soft; then let them soak in the sirrop a day and a night: Then take forth and cut them small and then make your tart and season your apples with sugar, synamon and ginger and put in a piece of buttar and lay a course of apples and between the same course of apples a course of orenges and so, course by course, and season your orenges as you seasoned your apples with somewhat more sugar, and lay on the lid and put it in the oven and when it is almost baked, take Rose water and sugar and boyle them together till it be somewhat thick, then take out the Tart. and take a feather and spread the rose water and sugar on the lit and let it not burn. I am paraphrasing her redaction below: 9" pie crust with lid. 6 medium oranges. I used Valencia oranges, through though temple oranges, blood oranges, and Seville oranges should all work as well. Both Bitter(seville) and sweet oranges were available during the 16th c. Don"t use Navel oranges: the skins are too thick. Four cups water 1 1/3 cup honey 14 small Macintosh apples. Any small cooking apple should do. 1 cup sugar 1 tsp. cinnamon 1/2 tsp. ginger 2 Tbs. rosewater 1 Tbs. sugar Soak oranges in water 24 hours. Put honey and water used to soak oranges to boil in a large sauce pan. Simmer until skins are soft. When soft, place oranges, Pour syrup over oranges and store for another 24 hours. Add water to completely cover oranges. When ready to bake. Preheat oven to F 350. Slice oranges and remove the seeds. If the syrup has not completely saturated the rinds, boil the slices in the syrup until saturated. Chop the oranges into small pieces, and mix in 1/3 cup sugar, 1/2 tsp. cinnamon, and 1/4 tsp. ginger. Peel, core and quarter apples, mix with remaining sugar, cinnamon and ginger. Place layer of apples at bottom, then a layer or oranges. Continue until full. Put on lid, bake for one hour. Apx 10 minutes prior to being done mix sugar and rosewater to make syrup and put on 5 mins prior to finish baking. Tollhase comments: I found that this recipe worked quite well, Although I found that I did indeed have to boil the oranges to get them saturated. Perhaps as she suggested, the skins were too thick. For feast (making lots of these) I plan on altering the recipe slightly. I will use Marmalade instead of boiling the oranges and season them with honey. I will cut up a couple of oranges per pie and mix with the marmalade. I use powder forte to taste. That means probably a tablespoon or more. I plan on preassembling them and then vacuum sealing them. Bake them on site. Still feel that the smell of fresh baking pies and bread always makes one hungry. Lord Frederich Holstein der Tollhase. Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:51:06 EDT From: THLRenata at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - query: Elizabethan jams tyrca at yahoo.com writes: << One that caught my eye was a collection of "Elizabethan jellies" in jars on one shelf. They had (as I remember) Lemon Curd and Honey, Orange Curd, Quince and Rose Petal, and some others that I can't think of right now. On the label, it gives a -very- brief pseudo-history of the 16th century, and the item, such as (with quince) the Elizabethans thought of the quince as the fruit Adam and Eve ate in the Garden of Eden. Now my question. Has anyone tried these? Are they truly Elizabethan? Are these items that would be found on Elizabeth's table?>> Lemon and Orange Curds are, unfortunately (because they are yummy!), a 19th century invention. Quices and rose petals were made into jam in Elizabethan times, but not IIRC together. Fruits preserved in various textures in sugar were very popular in Elizabethan times. I have a couple of articles in the Florilegium (did I spell it right?) on this very topic. I think they're in the Sweets section. I've never tried the Cost Plus versions, 'cause my semi-local one only carries the Curds, and I prefer to get my curds at Trader Joe's. Renata Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:49:43 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is> Subject: Re: SC - Tomatoes From: snowfire at mail.snet.net <snowfire at mail.snet.net> >I'm wondering then, if they called so many things apples, if the word >"apple" or it's equivalent in other languages originally had a broader >meaning like "round edible thing that is probably a vegetable" or >something? You are correct there. Most southern European languages do not, or did not originally at least, distinguish clearly between "apple" and "fruit". Melon in ancient Greek meant both apple and fruit. The Latin word pomum (the source of the French word "pomme") also could mean apple or fruit. Pomegranate, for instance, literally means "apple with many seeds" and in the Scandinavian languages it is still called grenate apple (granatepli in Icelandic). The German name for an orange literally means "apple from China" (Apfelsine) and this has been carried over into the Scandinavian languages also. And in Iceland, where no fruits grew and none were imported, either, any fruit was liable to be called apple - it was probably the only fruit most people had even heard of but few had ever seen. Nanna Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:35:19 +0100 From: "Oughton, Karin (GEIS, Tirlan)" <Karin.Oughton at geis.ge.com> Subject: RE: SC - Apple breeds? > From: HICKS, MELISSA [SMTP:HICKS_M at casa.gov.au] > Some friends of mine have recently bought a property/farm in rural Victoria, > Australia. They sent the following request for information on "period" > apple species. Can anyone here supply further info or suggest some > avenues of research for them? > > Meliora. > > > ---------- > > From: Kim & Ian Stanley-Eyles[SMTP:heathen at tpg.com.au] > > To: Meliora & Drake > > > > In the furtherance of our rural & mediaeval activities, we are thinking > > of planting some apple trees in the orchard from our period (or > > thereabouts) and ask if you have any information on these. > > > > Autumn Permain syn Summer Permain late 1500's England > > Court Pendu Plat syn Wise Apple plus others pre-1500 Europe > > Devonshire Quarrenden pre-1678 England possibly from France > > Fenouillet Gris syn Carraway Russet 1608 France > > Golden Harvey syn Brandy Apple 1600's England (Herts.) > > Gravenstein possibly Schleswig-Holstein pre-1667 possibly Italy > > Issac Newton's Tree (original tree unknown) c.1660 England (Lincs.) > > London Pippin syn Five Crown 1580 England I have the perfect answer for you, AND it keeps it in the family ; ) My father in law was the director for the Brogdale Trust ( a charity) , which hold the UK gene banks for apples, pears, plums, cherries, vines etc etc etc.... Gerry said he had something like 4500 different varieties of apple trees on site. They can provide information, seminars, root stock - you name it. They have a web site at http://www.brogdale.org.uk/ - they run a mail order service etc. I don't know about the legalities of importing stock into Australia, but I'm sure they can help. I recommend just browsing through their mail order service ....... And as an aside - if any one is looking for an interesting plum to plant, the "transparent gage" gets my vote for the most bizarre fruit (hopeless for storage though ) - it forms this beautiful huge fruit which is transparent - when the sun shines through you can see the stone in it etc, and when you bite, it just bursts in your mouth with an explosion of flavour.......have lots of wipes on hand :) Karin Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:18:01 EDT From: THLRenata at aol.com Subject: SC - Elinor Fettiplace's Jam Recipe Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book has a wonderful jam recipe (page 128 for those who own the book): To Preserve Plums or Gooseberries Take to every pound of plums a pound of sugar, then beat it smal, & put so much water to it as will wet, then boyle till it bee sugar againe, then put in the plums, & let them boile very softlie, till they be doone, then when they bee cold put them up, if they begin to grow then set them where fireis in a cupboard; you may doe respis this way & gooseberries, but you must boyle them verie soft , & not put the up till they bee cold, & likewise may Cherries bee doone as your gooseberries & respis. Hilary Spurling has redacted the recipe: Moisten the sugar with as little water as possible, say a quarter to half a pint per pound, put it in a large thick-bottomed pan, and stir it over the gentlest possible heat without boiling until it is dissolved. "Boyle till it bee sugar againe" means boil the syrup hard until it reaches what cooks of the period call "candie height" (240 degrees F, 115 degrees C on a sugar thermometer), when it will chrystalize if you beat it. I (this is Renata again) have made this several times with a variety of fruit and it's scary but it works. You end up with a pan full of hot rock candy, then just dump your fruit in and let it sit over the lowest possible heat. The juice from the fruit re-melts the sugar, and needs an occassional stir and/or chipping sugar away from the sides of the pan. By the time the sugar has totally remelted, the jam is ready to set (test this by putting a drop on a cold plate and pushing it -- if it forms a skin that wrinkles, it's ready to set) without ever boiling the fruit, which improves the flavor. The resulting jam is wonderful, and a hot water bath is not necessary, as the high sugar content keeps the jam from spoiling. Renata Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:27:16 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Berries > A friend here in Sweden wonders if rhubarb, gooseberries and raspberries > are period - does anybody know? > > Lady Uta, Nordmark Rhubarb (Rhuem rhubarbarum, et al.) was known in Antiquity. The word rhubarbe was first used in English about 1390. There are several members of the genus Rhuem hiding under the rhubarb name. Gooseberries (Ribes uva-crispa) are European and have been used since the Neolithic. Raspberries are both New and Old World. The basic European stock is Rubus ideaus. Bear Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 19:15:04 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Berries > Bear wrote: > >Rhubarb (Rhuem rhubarbarum, et al.) was known in Antiquity. The word > >rhubarbe was first used in English about 1390. > > But was it used as food? Every source Ive consulted says the roots were > valued for their medical uses, and the stalks maybe used for making rhubarb > syrup, again for medical uses, but the stalks werent used as food until > much later - not until about 1800 in England, even later in some other > countries. > > Nanna Gerard suggested that the leaves be eaten like spinach. However this is not recommended as the leaves contain concentrated oxalic and can be lethal. It also bodes ill for finding any rhubarb recipes beyond those for purgative. Of course this wasn't in the notes I was using with my reference library far away. According to Waverly Root, rhubarb may have been known in China as early as 2700 B.C.E. as a medicine, which would give a few thousand years to turn it into food. But he gives no references for Asiatic use as a foodstuff. Root also suggests that rhubarb may have been eaten in the Middle East, based on a 13th quote by Ibn el-Beithar that rhubarb was "very common in Syria and Persia . . . like chard, it has fairly thick stalks." Circuitously, Root points out that the plant Ibn el-Beithar commented upon is Rhuem ribes, the currant rhubarb (because it tastes like currants). So, no Medieval rhubarb pie for Europe. Bear Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:01:21 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Medlars and Sorb Apples sheltons at conterra.com writes: << Can anyone who isn't horticulturally impaired explain what these are and whether they're still used today? >> Sorb apples apparently are a variety that may have been grown by the Wends, a Slavic people that inhabited East Germany, but I have been unable to verify this info. Given the word is most likely a basis for sorb, I would venture to guess that it also is a type of crab apple. Ras Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:06:06 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Medlars and Sorb Apples Sorbs are the fruit of several different trees of the genus Sorbus in the rose family. S. domestica and S. torminalis are commonly referred to a service trees and have brown fruit. S. aucuparia is a rowan and has orange-red berries. I think the sorb apple may be the fruit of the service tree. Bear Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 14:34:35 -0500 From: Jenn/Yana <jdmiller2 at students.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: SC - Pickled Cherries are Russian? Bonne of Traquair wrote: >earlier this summer I posted re: my experience making pickled cherries and >making a drink syrup with the leftover pickled vinegar. Someone stated that >the pickled cherries were a traditional dish in Russia. I'd like more >information on that if the person is still around, or if anyone else has >heard this. That would have been me! I know that cherries were preserved in syrups and in kvas in period, but I'm still looking for a vinegar-type preserving technique. From the _Domostroi_ (period sections only): p152 Cherries in syrup p154 Preserve pears and apples in syrup and in kvas, berry or cranberry juice. General admonishment to preserve fruit--fallen apples, cucumbers, melons, and the like. (This could include cherries) p155 "...put nutmeg in one little bag, cloves in a second, beneficial herbs in a third...warm these on the stove and mix them with the mead...mix cherry juice with warmed wine and put it in a jug, combine raspberry juice and wine in a second jug, and add wine to prepared syrup in a third. (okay, this only involves cherry juice.) p176 Preserve apples, pears, cherries and berries in brine (either a salt or a sugar solution, Pouncy says it was probably a honey and water sol'n, I guess because of the previous mention of cherries in syrup) So I haven't found anything yet with cherries in a vinegar-pickling solution, just sweet brine or syrup and possibly a salt brine. But as the previous poster said, pickled cherries _are_ a _traditional_ food. Yana (Ilyana Barsova) jdmiller2 at students.wisc.edu Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 21:01:23 GMT From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com> Subject: SC - Re: fruit vinegar drinks Aoife said: >My brother has some documentation that is colonial in nature. let me >contact him and see if he has something earlier. He got interested from my >experiments, and it's snowballed. Truth is, I've been doing this so long >that I've forgotten my sources. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. I just found this last night, it's just a mention, not a recipe. Does anyone know if there a facsimile of the Fettiplace book? "Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book - Elizabethan Country House Cooking", Hilary Spurling, pg 209 "Lady Fettiplace made a liquor from equal parts white wine and white wine vinegar, boiled together with sugar, in which 'To keepe Barberries all the yeare'." Barberries are defined on page 199: "Barberries which, according toe Grieve's Herbal, are so sour even birds draw the line at eating them, were often added to low-acid drab-coloured fruits like pears or peeled quinces where a modern recipe would recommend lemon or redcurrant juice. ... They are a pretty fruit, tiny, drop-shaped, coral-coloured, turning a clear ruby red when cooked; ..." she goes on to say that the wild ones - Berberis vulgaris-have been almost entirely eradicated in this century in England in an attempt to wipe out the parasitic rust fungus, or wheat-mildew, to which it acts as host. She suggests that one plant a row of ornamental Berberis Wilsonae. On page 208 she suggests that the American cranberry was liked by the colonists because it reminded them of the highly prized barberry. So, that places the general idea of sour berries pickle