fruit-pies-msg - 4/20/15

Period fruit pies. Recipes. Baking pies.

NOTE: See also the files: pies-msg, meat-pies-msg, fruits-msg, apples-msg, fruit-pears-msg, fruit-quinces-msg, pastries-msg, tarts-msg, figs-msg, berries-msg.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the individual authors.

Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear  at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 15:27:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Roasted apples!

At 8:48 AM +0000 5/26/97, Jessica Tiffin wrote:
>I've just tracked down and devoured a copy of the Goodman of Paris
>(wonderful stuff).  He refers to "roasted apples" in many of his
>feast menus.  I'm assuming that this is a standard sort of baked
>apple - would anyone know precisely how they were cooked in period?
>
>Melesine

There is a recipe for baked quinces in Chiquart's cookbook (15th c. French,
as opposed to the Goodman's late 14th c.) and roughly the same recipe for
quinces or pears ("wardons") in Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books
(English).  You have a bottom crust, core your quinces or whatever from the
top without breaking through the bottom, put them on the crust, fill with
sugar (and in the English, ginger; or honey with pepper and ginger) and put
on a top crust.  Bake.  Very good, but the pie looks decidedly lumpy.

Elizabeth


Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:38:35 -0500
From: dangilsp at intrepid.net (Dan Gillespie)
Subject: SC - Apricot pie-IP recipe

Cap lxxxiij De tortada de orejones.

Una tortada grande y buena de orejones, ha de llevar una libra, los quales
se lavaran con agua calie(n)te, y despues de bien lavados, echalos en un
caço, co(n) una libra de açucar; ha se de dexar un poco para encima, y se
les echara un poco de vino blanco, y canela, y sazonala, y pondraslo a la
lumbre; de suerte que no se queme, porque ellos de suyo son bla(n)dos, y
estando conservados, se quitaran, y po(n)dranse en la tortada, y se les
echara açucar, y canela por encima; despues de bie(n) conservados tambien se
les puede echar miel en lugar al açucar; pero ha de ser buena, y se pondran
en la tortada coziendo a poca lumbre, porque todas las cosas dulces se
queman facilmente.

Chap 83 On a pie of dry apricot or peach halves

A large & good pie of dry apricots, bring a pound of them, those which are
washed with hot water, & after they are well washed, cast them in a pot,
with a pound of sugar; leave a little for on top, & cast to them
white wine, & cinnamon, & season it, & set it on the fire; be sure that it
does not burn, because they are delicate, & being conserved, remove them & &
put them in the pie, & cast to them sugar & cinnamon on top; after they are
well conserved you also may cast honey in place on the sugar; but let it be
good, & put the
pie cooking on a small fire, because all the sweet dishes burn easily.

Apricot Pie

- -12 oz package of dry apricots
- -12 oz white sugar, or 1.5 cups
- -1 c. white wine (red or rose also works fine)
- -1 tsp cinnamon
- -1 tsp ginger
- -a double crust pie pastry

Cut the apricots in half to make thin halves.  Cover them with boiling water
& let them soak for 10 minutes.  LEt them drain.  Put the sugar, wine &
spices in a heavy pan on medium high heat.  Let this boil & reduce heat to
medium.  Add the apricots & cook 30 minutes, or so.  The fruit should look a
bit translucent & the syrup should be reduced & thickened.  Roll out the pie
dough & put all the fruit & as much of the syrup in the pie shell as looks
right to you.  YOu don't want the excess syrup to bubble out of the shell &
burn in the oven.  Cover with top layer of pie dough.  Sprinkle sugar &
cinnamon on top.  Bake at 400 degrees for 10 minutes & reduce the heat to
325 for 30 minutes or til pastry looks golden brown.  I sometimes make
cookie cut-outs of the extra dough & put them on top for decoration.

Dan Gillespie
dangilsp at intrepid.net


Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 22:20:48 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Tartys in Applis-NEW recipe-enjoy

This recipe would be good for a vegeterian or fast day feast also    It is
recommended for experienced cooks.

                          *  Exported from  MasterCook  *

                      Tartys in Applis (Apple Tarts)

Recipe By     : L. J. Spencer, Jr. (copywrite 1998)
Serving Size  : 8    Preparation Time :0:00
Categories    : English                          Fruit
                Pies & Pastry

  Amount  Measure       Ingredient -- Preparation Method
- --------  ------------  --------------------------------
   3                    apples, peeled -- cored, chopped fine
   2                    pears, peeled -- cored, chopped fine
     1/2  cup           figs, dried -- chopped fine
     1/2  cup           Zante currants, dried -- chopped fine
     1/4  teaspoon      black pepper -- ground
   2      teaspoons     cinnamon -- ground
     1/2  teaspoon      nutmeg -- ground
     1/4  teaspoon      mace -- ground
     1/4  teaspoon      cloves -- ground
   1                    pie shell
                        sugar -- for garnish

Mix fruits and spices together thoroughly.  Spread the mixture evenly in the
bottom of a pastry shell.  Bake  at  450 deg F for 15 minutes.  Reduce heat to
360 deg F for 20 minutes or until crust is golden brown and filling is
bubbling.  Serve at room temperature.  Garnish with granulated sugar if
desired.

                   - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

NOTES: Original: Tartys in Applies- Tak gode applys & gode spycis & figs &
reysons & perys, & wan they arn wel brayed colour wyth safroun wel & do yt in
a cofyn, & do yt forth to bake wel. -  Curye on Inglish

Although the original recipe doesn't specify seasonings, I chose to do so
based on a comparison to other tart/pastry type recipes from this manuscript.
I feel that this recipe was meant to convey the main ingredient of the tart
and was written for the pastry cook rather than any of the other myriad
specialty cooks available at the residence

The spices I used are typical of this sort of dish and provide depths of
flavor that literally lifts the original out of the depths of insipidity.  The
spice mixture that I created is well within the acceptable range of other
similar mixtures that are listed in COE.  Sprinkling a rounded tablespoon of
granulated sugar over the top after about a half hour out of the oven makes a
nice garnish.

Mincemeat-like recipes appear to have been very popular during the middle ages
and remained so right up until the end of the Victorian era with very little
change in ingredients or method of preparation.  The popularity of mincemeat
dishes dropped dramatically throughout the first part of the 20th century C.E.
The economy of W.W.II brought about a major decline in availability of
ingredients as well as a major change in cooking styles, tools, utensils and
major product additions. Mincemeat dishes were reduced to the level the old
fashioned novelty that they are today.

This is a good recipe for the creative period cook because of it's obvious
resemblance to similar mincemeat-like recipes. The addition of 1/4 cup finely
diced suet and 6 ounces of finely chopped raw venison to the main ingredients
would make this tart substantial enough to serve as a first course. More
importantly, IMO, it would be as period as any thing we know about and with
appropriate documentation could be entered into A & S displays or competitions
without fear of 'being out of period'. :-)

Enjoy!

al-Sayyid A'aql ibn Ras al-Zib, AoA, OSyc
Guildmaster (The Guild of St. Martha)
Kingdom of Aethelmearc
Shire of Abhain Ciach Ghlas
Mountain Confederation
Clan Ravenstar


Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 07:05:54 -0500
From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong)
Subject: Re: SC - Tartys in Applis-NEW recipe-enjoy

Tyrca wrote:
>Very interesting, Ras, and it brings up a question that I have had for
>some time, about mincemeat.  I grew up with mincemeat pies for
>Christmas as something with _meat_ in them.  My mother usually used
>leftover roast beef or venison, put it through a hand grinder, and
>added the apples and raisins, and canned the filling to use for the
>holidays.  It is my father's favorite.  As I grew older, and went more
>out into the world, I discovered that other people I talked to had
>never heard of meat in mince pies.  They thought I was crazy.
>
>Did they really use meat in mincemeat pies in period?  Or is my family
>just an abberation?  Any recipes?  Anyone?

Fruit in medieval meat pies was a very common occurance.

Actually, until the second half of the fifteenth century recipes for meat
pies with fruit seem to be much more common than for fruit pies without
meat. Many meat pies were baked in a heavy flour and water crust that
served mostly as a container for the ingredients and could stand up under
long cooking times. Some writer's have claimed that the innovation of a
lighter and more edible pie crust and suggested that this new pie crust
made the fruit pies (which needed shorter cooking times) much more popular.

This is all supposition on the part of the historians so I set out to see
if I could verify it by scanning a number of cookbooks for recipes for
fruit pies that did not include meat. Out of about twenty English, French
and German cookbooks from the 14th to 16th century one percent or fewer
recipes were for fruit pies in the earlier two centuries while twelve
percent of all the 16th century recipes were for fruit only pies.

These are imperfect statistics since most of my 16th C. sources were German
- - so it might be a regional fad.

Valoise


Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:25:33 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Tartys in Applis-NEW recipe-enjoy

Ras gave his worked-out version of the following 14th-c recipe:

>NOTES: Original: Tartys in Applies- Tak gode applys & gode spycis & figs &
>reysons & perys, & wan they arn wel brayed colour wyth safroun wel & do yt in
>a cofyn, & do yt forth to bake wel. -  Curye on Inglish

For comparison, here is a richer version from a different source, with eggs
and cream and butter, but with the same ground apples and/or pears and
dried fruit as yours; it is 15th c. English and, unlike yours, specifies
the spicing.  It does specify sprinkling on the sugar at the end--in this
case, cinnamon sugar.

A Flaune of Almayne
Ancient Cookery p. 452/39

First take raisins of Courance, or else other fresh raisins, and good ripe
pears, or else good apples, and pick out the cores of them, and pare them,
and grind them, and the raisins in a mortar, and do then to them a little
sweet cream of milk, and strain them through a clean strainer, and take ten
eggs, or as many more as will suffice, and beat them well together, both
the white and the yolk, and draw it through a strainer, and grate fair
white bread, and do thereto a good quantity, and more sweet cream, and do
thereto, and all this together; and take saffron, and powder of ginger, and
canel, and do thereto, and a little salt, and a quantity of fair, sweet
butter, and make a fair coffin or two, or as many as needs, and bake them a
little in an oven, and do this batter in them, and bake them as you would
bake flaunes, or crustades, and when they are baked enough, sprinkle with
canel and white sugar. This is a good manner of Crustade. [end of original;
spelling modernized]

2/3 c raisins   pinch of saffron        1/2 c whipping cream
3 pears or apples       1/2 t salt      5 T butter
1/2 t cinnamon  3 eggs (large)  9" pie crust
1/4 t ginger    4 T breadcrumbs 1 T cinnamon sugar to sprinkle on at the end

A blender works well as a substitute for a mortar to mash the apples and
raisins; mix the liquids in with the apples and raisins before blending.
Bake at 375° for about an hour.

Elizabeth/Betty Cook (only a week behind the list, now)


Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:01:18 -0700
From: varmstro at zipcon.net (Valoise Armstrong)
Subject: Re: SC - period fruit pastries

timorra asked
>is there a period fruit pastry out there? like pasties?
>i have a friend who is serving a dish and was wondering if it was period

If by pastry you mean a pie, you might check out Das Kochbuch der Sabina
Welserin. It has a couple of dozen fruit pies. Duke Cariadoc has graciously
given it a place on his web page at:
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Cookbooks/Sabrina_Welserin.html

Valoise


Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:22:41 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - period fruit pastries

Mouuze at aol.com wrote:
> is there a period fruit pastry out there? like pasties?

There are instances of pies either containing fruit in addition to other
ingredients (and often the fruit is dried) or occasionally fruit with a
custard mix (such as apples or cherries). I'd say the biggest influx of
what we would today call a fruit pastry in an English source is in
~1545, in "A Newe Proper Booke of Cokery", which contains a pastry
recipe and several recipes for fruit pies and tarts together in one section.

One problem with thinking in terms of a fruit pasty, other than that
I've never seen such a reference and the concept may violate some
unwritten law among period cooks, if you know what I mean, is that if
there _were_ textual references to fruit in pasties, we still would have
no reason to assume what was meant was anything like a Cornish pasty in
shape or pastry composition. See what I mean? All we would know is that
fruit appeared to have been eaten wrapped in pastry, and that's
something we already know.

> i have a friend who is serving a dish and was wondering if it was period

Ah. See above. ;  ) . Rather than give the standard lecture about
documentation after the fact, we can consider it given and simply say
yes, it does appear fruit in pastry was eaten in period, in one form or
another, but that half-moon-shaped turnovers filled with sweetened fruit
with the juice thickened to provide a sauce, probably were not, or at
least I'm not aware of any reason to assume so.

Adamantius


Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 00:13:44 EDT
From: ChannonM at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Blackberry/Apple Pie

Since I don''t know which Celts you are talking about and what time, I'll
assume (watch it there) that they are Irish, Scottish or in that area and
most likely early period (pre 12 C).

I have found  success with a "crumble" type recipe utilizing honey instead of
sugar (if you are doing Celtic, sugar was not avail  before 12C (I know
everyone will have a specific/different date).

Crumble  or fruit crisp recipes use oats, nuts (hazelnuts or filberts were
avail to the Celts ) a sweetener, butter and fruit.

Spices that were found in burial sites such as the Osberg Ship's burial do
not to my knowledge contain what we would typically call "pie spices" ie
cinnamon, nutmeg so on those you can infer contact with Vikings who may have
come across them . According to Anne Wilson's - Food and Drink in Britain,
the spice supply was interuppted in the 5th century and revived again in the
late 8th.  Others out there may have more detail on that.

Here is an adaption of a recipe that originally used sugar,  instead of
honey. Honey can be substituted for sugar at 1 cup honey:1.25 sugar (white) or
 .8 of a cup to 1 cup sugar.

Combine 5 cups fruit (if necessary peel, core & chop/slice) with 3 Tblsp honey
Place in an oven proof dish
Separately combine,
1/2 cup regular rolled oats
1/4 cup flour ( I used 1/8 all purpose + 1/8 whole wheat)
1/2 cup honey
1/4 tsp ground nutmeg, ginger or cinnamon
1/4 cup chopped nuts (toasting them lightly in a 400degree oven brings out
their flavour)

Cut in 1/4 cup butter
Sprinkle topping over filling or what may be a more period manner- mix the
whole thing together as a sweet thick pottage- sounds good with some thick
cream poured over after cooking.
 Bake in 375 degree oven for 30-35 minutes or till fruit is tender.

Hauviette


Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 22:42:53 -0500
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Blackberry/Apple Pie

At 12:13 AM -0400 9/27/99, ChannonM at aol.com wrote:
>Since I don''t know which Celts you are talking about and what time, I'll
>assume (watch it there) that they are Irish, Scottish or in that area and
>most likely early period (pre 12 C).

...

>Here is an adaption of a recipe that originally used sugar,  instead of
>honey. Honey can be substituted for sugar at 1cup honey:1.25 sugar (white) or
> .8 of a cup to 1 cup sugar.
>
>Combine 5 cups fruit (if necessary peel, core & chop/slice) with 3 Tblsp honey
>Place in an oven proof dish
>Separately combine,
>1/2 cup regular rolled oats

...

Rolled oats are a modern invention. Would the recipe work with whole oats
or oatmeal in the old sense?

Also, can you think of any period recipes that are reasonably similar to
this? Taking a modern recipe and substituting period ingredients isn't a
very reliable way of getting a period recipe, since lots of things other
than ingredients change over time.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 00:13:44 EDT
From: ChannonM at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Blackberry/Apple Pie

Since I don''t know which Celts you are talking about and what time, I'll
assume (watch it there) that they are Irish, Scottish or in that area and
most likely early period (pre 12 C).

I have found  success with a "crumble" type recipe utilizing honey instead of
sugar (if you are doing Celtic, sugar was not avail  before 12C (I know
everyone will have a specific/different date).

Crumble  or fruit crisp recipes use oats, nuts (hazelnuts or filberts were
avail to the Celts ) a sweetener, butter and fruit.

Spices that were found in burial sites such as the Osberg Ship's burial do
not to my knowledge contain what we would typically call "pie spices" ie
cinnamon, nutmeg so on those you can infer contact with Vikings who may have
come across them . According to Anne Wilson's - Food and Drink in Britain,
the spice supply was interuppted in the 5th century and revived again in the
late 8th.  Others out there may have more detail on that.

Here is an adaption of a recipe that originally used sugar,  instead of
honey. Honey can be substituted for sugar at 1 cup honey:1.25 sugar (white) or
 .8 of a cup to 1 cup sugar.

Combine 5 cups fruit (if necessary peel, core & chop/slice) with 3 Tblsp honey
Place in an oven proof dish
Separately combine,
1/2 cup regular rolled oats
1/4 cup flour ( I used 1/8 all purpose + 1/8 whole wheat)
1/2 cup honey
1/4 tsp ground nutmeg, ginger or cinnamon
1/4 cup chopped nuts (toasting them lightly in a 400degree oven brings out
their flavour)

Cut in 1/4 cup butter
Sprinkle topping over filling or what may be a more period manner- mix the
whole thing together as a sweet thick pottage- sounds good with some thick
cream poured over after cooking.
 Bake in 375 degree oven for 30-35 minutes or till fruit is tender.

Hauviette


Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 22:42:53 -0500
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Blackberry/Apple Pie

At 12:13 AM -0400 9/27/99, ChannonM at aol.com wrote:
>Since I don''t know which Celts you are talking about and what time, I'll
>assume (watch it there) that they are Irish, Scottish or in that area and
>most likely early period (pre 12 C).

...

>Here is an adaption of a recipe that originally used sugar,  instead of
>honey. Honey can be substituted for sugar at 1cup honey:1.25 sugar (white) or
> .8 of a cup to 1 cup sugar.
>
>Combine 5 cups fruit (if necessary peel, core & chop/slice) with 3 Tblsp honey
>Place in an oven proof dish
>Separately combine,
>1/2 cup regular rolled oats

...

Rolled oats are a modern invention. Would the recipe work with whole oats
or oatmeal in the old sense?

Also, can you think of any period recipes that are reasonably similar to
this? Taking a modern recipe and substituting period ingredients isn't a
very reliable way of getting a period recipe, since lots of things other
than ingredients change over time.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 13:37:01 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Thanksgiving

I wrote:
><<  I'm pretty proud of
> the apple fig raisin so I will be posting the recipe later for anyone who
> wants it. >>

Was reply:
>I would love to have the recipe, Daniel.  Sounds scrumptious.
>
>Juliana/Iu'liana

Just took one out of the oven with a little Triskel on the crust.

Can't take any real credit for the reciepe as I used the filling for fruit
Rissoles on page 278 of "Early French Cooking" by Scully and Scully.  It's
their redaction from Menagier de Paris (The Goodman of Paris)

3-4 medium cooking apples (I used 5 smallish Granny Smiths. I tried Red
delicious once and they didn't do as well)
8 figs ( I used 10 this time as they seemed a bit small as well)
1 cup rasins (black raisins, I intend to use golden raisins next time to see
if it makes a difference)
1 cup water
1/2 cup white wine ( used half and half water and wine, 1.5 cups of each)

Peel and clice apples, chop figs small (cut off stems and throw them away).
Simmer fruit in water/wine several minutes until fruit is soft but not
mushy.  Do not over cook. (Check the apples of doneness if they are done so
is the rest of the fruit.)

1/2 cup of sugar (I used some ginger flavored sugar I had left over from
making candied ginger)
1 tsp ground ginger
3/4 tsp ground cinnamon
1/4 tsp ground cloves
1/4 tsp grain of paradise (optional according to Scully but I use it if I
have it on hand)
1/3 cup pinenuts or chpped walnuts (I have made it with walnuts and without.
This time I left them out as one of the people eating has an extreme food
allergy to nuts.  In truth it does not seem to make a difference to me.)

Combine sugar and spices.  Add fruit (Add with a slotted spoon as you do not
want the mixture to be to moist.)  If mixture is to dry, stir in white wine
by the teaspoonful tpo correct.  (I add in a bit of the drained mixture.)
Taste; adjust spices to taste.  (Go light on the cloves as it is very easy
to go over board.)

Stir in nuts.

I prebaked a deep dish 9 inch pie shell and added in the filling.  I put a
pastry shell on top, the other pie shell unbaked, and baked in a preheated
oven at 375 F for about 25 minutes.  Check the pie at 20 minutes to see if
the crust is done.  I wouldn't leave it in over 30 minutes.

This is one of Scully's suggested cooking variations.

Daniel Raoul


Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:33:18 -0800
From: Maggie MacDonald <maggie5 at home.com>
Subject: SC - Requested Recipes- Pork Roast/Warden Pie-LONG!!

I mentioned some recipes we used at the Maison deSteele Thanksgiving, and
got requests for the recipes, sources, etc. THL Gillian of Lynnhaven
provided me with the all of those tonight. Let me see if I can get them to
look as pretty here as she has on the paper that she gave me.  Enjoy!
*************************************************************

<snip of Pork Roast with Apricot & Prune Stuffing. See roast-pork-msg>

Warden Pie
by THL Gillian of Lynnhaven

Take the fairest and best wardens*, and pare them, and take out the hard
cores on the top, and cut the sharp ends at  the bottom flat; then boil
them in white wine and sugar, until the syrup grow thick; then take the
wardens from the syrup into a clean dish, and let them cool; then set them
into the coffin, and prick cloves in the tops, with whole sticks of
cinnamon, and great store of sugar, as for pippins; then cover it, and only
reserve a vent hole, so set it in the oven and bake it: when it is baked,
draw it forth, and take the first syrup in which the wardens were boiled,
and taste it, and if it be not sweet enough, then put in more sugar and
some rose-water, and boil it again a little, then pour it in at a the vent
hole, and shake the pie well; then take sweet butter and rose-water melted,
and with it anoint the pie lid all over, and strew upon it store of sugar,
and so set into the oven again a little space, and then serve it up. And in
this manner you may also bake quinces*.  "The English Housewife", Gervase
Markham, Edited by Michael R. Best, McGill-Queen's University Press,
Canada,  1986, p. 104,  #130

3 hard Pears
1 cup white Port **
1 cup Water
1 cup Sugar
9 whole Cloves
2 whole sticks Cinnamon
1 tsp. Rosewater
2 Tbs. Butter, melted
2 pie crusts
1 pie pan
egg wash - 1 egg yolk mixed with 2 Tsp. Water

Peel and cut the pears in half and remove the core. Combine in a saucepan,
the water, sugar and wine, with one stick of cinnamon and three cloves.
Heat until boiling then reduce the heat until the syrup simmers. Add the
pears to the syrup. Cook until the pears are just tender. Do not overcook.
Remove the pears with a slotted spoon to a bowl and cool. Prepare the pie
pan with the bottom crust.  Lay the pear half into the pie pan. Place one
clove into each pear half. Break the cinnamon stick into pieces and spread
over the pears. Roll out the top crust leaving a one inch hole in the
center for a vent. Cover the pears with the top crust, pinch the edges and
brush it lightly with the egg wash. Decorate the crust as desired. Bake in
the oven at 350 degrees for about 30 minutes or until the crust is golden
brown.  Remove the pie from the oven.

Continue to simmer the syrup until it is reduced in volume by half. Add the
rosewater to the syrup and remove it from the stove. Spoon the hot syrup
into the vent of the pie until it is moist but not overflowing. To the
melted butter add a couple of drops of rosewater and brush the mixture over
the top of the pie. Sprinkle the top of the pie with sugar, and return the
pie to the oven for about 5 to 10 minutes to glaze the top.

Serve warm with whipped cream.  Serves 6 to 8

*Wardens refer to a hard and slightly sour type of pear. Choose a pear that
is solid and slightly unripe to use in this recipe. It would also work with
quinces, which are sour uneatable fruits until they are cooked.

**If white port cannot be found, use as sweet a white wine as can be gotten
and increase the amount of sugar. The syrup should be very sweet and fragrant.


Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 10:17:56 -0800
From: Valoise Armstrong <varmstro at zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Cherry tarts? - Question to the list. (long)

Just got back from Wash DC and found an amazing number of digests to
wade through, but glancing through the subject headings, it doesn't
look like anyone has replied to this. Following are a couple of cherry
pie recipes from Sabina Welserin, only one of them redacted. I'm sure
there are more in other cookbooks, but these are the only ones I've
got translated and on my hard drive.

Valoise

123 To make a very good sour cherry tart

Take a pound of sour cherries and remove all of the pits. Afterwards take a
half pound of sugar and a half ounce of finely ground cinnamon sticks and
mix the sugar with it. Next mix the cherries with it and put it after that
in the pie shell made of good flour and let it bake in the tart pan.

130 To make a sour cherry tart

Take the sour cherries, take out the stones and make a pastry crust as for
the other tarts. Take bread crumbs from grated white bread and fry them in
fat. Pour them on the crust, sprinkle sugar and cinnamon on top, Put the
sour cherries in it, leaving their juice in the bowl, sprinkle it well with
sugar and with cinnamon, make a crust on top of it, let it bake, as it is
customary.

Pastry for a two-crust pie
1 1/2 cups plain bread crumbs
1/4 cup butter or lard
3 cups pitted sour cherries (fresh or frozen, canned in water as a
last resort)
2/3 cup sugar
1 teaspoon cinnamon

Drain cherries. Melt butter in pan. Add bread crumbs and brown lightly. Set
aside to cool. Arrange bottom crust in pie pan. Add bread crumbs and sprinkle 
with a third of the cinnamon and sugar. Add remaining sugar and cinnamon to 
drained cherries and place on top of bread crumbs. Cover with remaining pie crust.  Trim and flute edges and cut vent holes. Bake in preheated oven 450
degrees Fahrenheit for 10 minutes. Then reduce heat to 350 degrees Fahrenheit
and bake until brown (Approximately 35 more minutes).


Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 13:19:00 -0600
From: Magdalena <magdlena at earthlink.net>
Subject: SC - sour cherry pie

Someone asked for a cherry tart recipe a while back.  I
don't think this is what she? had in mind, but I thought I'd
post it.

Platina 8.40

40.  Sour Cherry Pie

    Pound in a mortar pitted sour cherries which can be
called 'merendae'.  When they are pounded, mix into them
well cut up roses, a little fresh  cheese, and ground aged
cheese, a bit of pepper, a little ginger, a little more
sugar, and four beaten eggs.  When they are mixed, cook in a
well-greased pan with a lower crust on a slow fire.  When
they are taken off the fore, pour sugar and rosewater over
them.  This does not differ much from the above in force and
pleasantness.

(the above is millet pie)

- -Magdalena


Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 02:44:51 +0100
From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - cherry tarts & A tarte to provoke courage"

To make a good tart of Cheries.

Take your cheries and pick out the stones of them: then take raw yolks of egs, and put them into your cheries, then take sugar, Sinamon and Ginger, and Cloves, and put to your Cheries + make your Tart with all the Egges, your tart must be of an inche high, when it is made put in your cheries without any liquor, and cast Sugar, Sinamon, and ginger, upon it, and close it up, lay it on a paper, + put it in the Oven, when it is half baken draw it out, and put the liquor that you let of your cheries into the Tart: then take molten butter, and with a feather anoint your lid there with. Then take a fine beaten Sugar and cast upon it: then put your Tarte into the Oven again, and let it bake a good while, when it is baken drawe it foorth, + cast Sugar + Rosewater upon it, and serve it in."

(The good huswifes handmaide for the kitchen (1594?), ed. Stuart Peachey, Bristol 1992, 36f.) "To make a Tart of Cherries, when thestones be out, another waye. Seeth them in White wine or in Claret, and drain them thick: when they be sodden: then take two yolks of Egges+ thicken it withall: then season it with Synamon,Ginger, and Sugar, and bake it, and so serve it." (ib. 37.)

T.


Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:44:58 +1000
From: "Drake & Meliora" <meliora at macquarie.matra.com.au>
Subject: RE: SC - WANTED Period recipe for an apple & chestnut pie

Lorix,
> I had a really nice period recipe for an apple & chestnut pie. Alas, I
> cannot find where I saved it to ;-(

I'm currently way behind at Uni at the moment, so sorry if this has already
been answered.  Is this the recipe you are looking for?  It is from Alia
Atlas' Ein Buch von Guter Spise.

Regards Mel.
Ooops, just noticed it is walnut not chestnut - sorry.

61. Einen krapfen (A krapfen)
So du wilt einen vasten krapfen machen von n¸zzen mit ganzem kern. und nim
als vil epfele dor under und snide sie w¸rfeleht als der kern ist und roest
sie mit ein wenig honiges und mengez mit w¸rtzen und tu ez uf die bleter die
do gemaht sin zu krapfen und loz ez backen und versaltz niht.

How you want to make a fastday krapfen of nuts with whole kernels. And take
as many apples thereunder and cut them diced, as the kernel is, and roast
them well with a little honey and mix with spices and put it on the leaves,
which you made to krapfen, and let it bake and do not oversalt.

Recipe 61: An Apple and Walnut Tart
copyright 1994 Alia Atlas

4 apples, peeled and diced. (about 2 cups) (used Granny Smith)
2 cups walnuts
1/2 cup honey
1 1/2 tsp cinnamon
1/2 tsp ground nutmeg
1/4 tsp ground mace
1/4 tsp ground cloves
1 pie crust (made of flour, butter, water and salt)

Cook the apples in the honey until they are starting to become soft. (This
takes approximately 10 minutes.) Mix the cooled apples and honey with the
walnuts and spices. Roll out pie crust and put in pan. Fill crust with
mixture. Cook in the oven at 3508 F until crust is brown (approximately 30
minutes).


Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:44:40 -0400
From: "Bethany Public Library" <betpulib at ptdprolog.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Just checking whether you are the Aoife who sent this message

Hallo Lorix! Yep, that's me, from Home (I now use my work address). I don't
recall how this recipe came out, precisely at the moment. Sorry! It would
make something very like modern mincemeat, except the ingredients are
layered rather than mixed and pre-cooked (which means that this recipe is
probably older than the date of the cookbook, since pre-mixed pie
ingredients seem to have begun coming into fashion in the late 1500s, early
1600s). But the Cordecidron is a a citrus fruit (most likely the candied
peel) and you can safely substitute candied lemon peel. I would tend to make
my own: thinly peel the rind from lemons, making sure there is no pith
(white). gently boil in 3-4 changes of water (helps to keep 2 pans boiling
at all times---the process is quicker that way) to remove bitterness, then
simmer in a simple syrup of one part sugar to one part water, for 10
minutes. Remove, dip into granulated sugar, and allow to somewhat dry. You
can do the same with the porange peel, which is also probably candied. That
amount of grated raw peel might be overwhelming, thus the surmise about
preserved peel.

And yes, in this case (a recipe from the late 1500s) "lib." means pound
(lb.).

Good Luck. I may have to go back and try this again!

Cheers

Dame Aoife

- -----Original Message-----
From: Lorix <lorix at trump.net.au>
To: Bethany Public Library <betpulib at ptdprolog.net>
Date: Monday, June 05, 2000 7:43 AM
Subject: SC - Just checking whether you are the Aoife who sent this message


M'lady,
I am looking for a recipe I seem to remember seeing in the last 6
months containing apples & chestnuts.  Of course, now that I want to
try ot out I can't find it!  Anyway, a did a search the following
recipe turned up in the floregium sent in 1997.  As the sending
address was different I was unsure if you were the same person who
sent the original missive.

If you are, please can you answer the following questions:
1/ Can you tell me how this recipe turned out?
2/ What exactly is 'Cordecidron'?
3/ Does lib. in recipe equate to lb (pounds)?

Thanks, Lorix

Chestnut Pye
Posted by Aoife, L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net> on
16/10/97:  From: Subject: SC - Apples and Chestnuts
(Mrs. McClintock's Receipt Book, 1700s):  Chestnut Pye - To Make A
Cheftnut Pye Take 2 dozen of Apples, 100 Chefnuts, a lib. of Almonds,
2 lib. of Currans, half a lib. of Rafins, half a lib. of Sugar, half
an Ounce of Cinnamon, 3 Drop of Nutmeg, a Quarter of a lib. of
Cordecidron, as much Orange-peel; flice your Apples, fkin the
Chefnuts, and blanche the Almonds, put a layer of Appls in the Bottom
of the Pye, put a Layer of Chefnuts, a Layer of Almonds, Currans,
Raifins, Cordecidron, Orange-peil and Spices; Give it good ftore of
fweet Butter on the Top, then put on the Lid, and fend it to the oven;
when 'tis near fired, pour in a
Mutchkin of white Wine at the Lumb.   (Lumb is a vent or funnel in a
pie. Mutchkin is .212 litres or 2.996 gills, if that actually helps!)

My Modern 'transaltion' To Make a Chestnut Pye:
2 dozen apples (sliced)
100 chestnuts (skinned)
1 lb of almonds (blanched)
2lb currants
? lb raisins
? lb sugar
? ounce cinnamon
3 drops of nutmeg
º lb Cordecidion (what is this exactly?)
? lb orange peel
Put a layer of apples at the bottom of the pye, a layer of chestnuts,
a layer of almods, currants, raisins, cordecidron (?), orange peel &
spices.  Put some sweet butter on the top, then put on a lid & send it
to the oven.  When it is nearly done, pour in .212 litres of white
wine through a vent in the pie.


Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 21:28:57 EDT
From: ChannonM at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: PLATINA,  Date Pie LONG

Hi everyone, 

I was working on this recipe this weekend and wanted to share. Let me know 
what you all think.

Date Pie
Platina- ON Right Pleasure and Good Health

Milham translation
#43Torta ex Dactylis
Amygdalas bene tunsas cum iure piscium et aqua rosacea dissolves. Dissolutas 
in catinum per sataceum transmittes. Dactylorum exossatorum selibram, parum 
passularum, quattuor aut quinque ficos, risi item bene cocti uncias tris in 
eodem mortario conteres. Parum deinde petroselini, atriplicis, amaraci 
manibus confracti ac in oleo fricti gladiolo concides. Non erit ab re si cum 
his iocuscula aut adipem piscis condideres. Unciam praeterea passularum 
Corinthiarum, selibram sacchri, parum cinnami, plusculum gingiberis, modicum 
croci simul aut seorsum teres, superioribusque admiscebis. Verum ut magis 
haec spissentur, aut semunciam amyli aut ova lyci indes, extendesque in 
testum bene untum et subcrustatum infixis ubique nucleis pineis bene mundis. 
Lagana vero si placebit pro superiore cursta extendes. Coqui lento igne hoc 
pulmentum debet. Tenue item ut sit necesse est. Coctum saccharo et aqua 
rosacea suffundatur. Alit hoc quidem et multum, tarde concoquitur, hepar 
iuvat, dentes corrumpit, pituitam auget.

Date Pie
Soak well-pounded almonds with fish juice and rose water. When they are 
soaked, pass through a sieve into a bowl. Grind in the same mortar a half 
pound of pitted dates, a few raisins, four or five figs, as well as three 
ounces of well-cooked rise. Then cut up with a small knife a little parsley, 
orach, and marjoram, torn by hand and fried in oil. It will not be out of the 
way if you cut up livers or fish fat with these. Besides, grind together, or 
separately, an ounce of Corinthian raisins, a half pound of sugar, a little 
cinnamon, a little more ginger, and a bit of saffron, and mix into the above, 
So that it may really thicken more, put in either a half ounce of starch or 
pike eggs, and spread out in a well-oiled earthenware pot with a lower crust 
with well-washed pine nuts stuck everywhere in it. If it will really please 
you, spread crepes instead of an upper crust. This mixture ought to be cooked 
in a slow fire. Also, it is necessary for it tho be thin. Wehn it is cooked, 
it should be covered with sugar and rose water. This really also nourishes a 
great deal, is slowly digested, helps the liver, damages the teeth, and 
increases phlegm.


Redaction

1.5 cups ground almonds
.5 cups rose water
1 cup fish juice (.125 tsp insinglass in 1 cup water, stirred well)*

Combine above, let sit for 10-15 minutes. Pour into a mesh strainer and let 
drain for sometime, stir occasionally to assist the draining.

.5 lb dates
.125 cup yellow raisins
4-5 figs
3 ounces (.5 cup) well cooked rice (1.5 cup water to .5 cups long grain rice)

Combine in food processor till thick consistency. 

1 tsp Flat leaf parsley
, 3-4  baby spinach leaves, .5 tsp fresh marjoram chopped well and fried in 1 
tsp olive oil**

1 ounce currants (.333 cups)***
.5 lb sugar (6 TB turbinado, 5 TB packed demerera)****
1.5 tsp cinnamon
1 tsp ginger*****
4-5 saffron threads crushed
3.5 tsp unbleached wheat flour
Grind the above in food processor then add to the above ingredients.

Line a large shallow baking pan or two pie plates with pastry  (I used 
commercial pie dough, this was a spur of the moment thing)

Stick pine nuts (.333 cups) into the pastry bottom
Spread filling into the pastry.
Top with upper crust or crepes (I did 2 pies, one with pastry top the other 
with a crepe)

Cook 325 degrees farenheit for 45 minutes.

Combine .25 cups demerera sugar and .25 cups turbinado with .125 cups rose 
water. Mix well untill mostly disolved. Pour over the top of the pie. 

Eat.


Notes
*The fish juice issue threw me for a while. I was debating whether this was a 
garum (ie Roman fish sauce) type thing or if it was just a fish broth. There 
were a few recipes later in the manuscript that used fish juice to make the 
dish thicker which lead me to believe that this was much more like using a 
gelatine than using the liquid as a source of flavour. Isinglass being a 
source of gelatine is a fish derivative and fit the bill. If anyone has any 
input here, feel free to jump in.

**The translation says ‘a little’, I interpretted this to mean a generous 
pinch

***Someone posted (was it Bear?) that they believed Corinthian raisins not to 
be currants but  actually were a specific type of raisin. I could not for the 
life of me remember the type and rationale, if someone recognizes this please 
post in comment.

***I wanted a deeper flavour to the icing than just what white sugar could 
give so I combined these sugars. I also felt this was a closer attempt at a 
period sugar that would have been more commonly used than pristine white 
sugar (also, pure white sugar was often noted when needed). I chose to work 
with the Apothecaries scale for weight  which makes a pound equal to 12 
ounces vs the modern 16. This choice was based on conversations on this list 
specifically regarding the Menagier ratios for hippocras I believe (out of 
memory at the moment), but I have taken to being liberal with that 
interpretation from the Menagier to other period works. Feel free to comment 
on this.

****In retrospect, I will use 2 tsp ginger as the recipe calls for ‘a little 
cinnamon, a little MORE ginger’

It was a fun experiment and was quite yummy. So far only my family has tried 
it. My husband upon being questioned felt that it was ìfineî and if you ìlike 
dates, you will like this pieî.I preferred the pastry top, my husband the 
crepe and my oldest son ate both his and his younger brothers share and asked 
for more of  both. Iíll be bringing it to fight practice tomorrow, weíll see 
what the response is then. BTW the undissolved turbinado sugar looked as 
delightfull as it tasted, it added a beautiful crystaline finish to the top 
of the pie.  Fresh mint leaves would be a nice garnish.

Hauviette


Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:34:12 +0100 
From: Christina Nevin <cnevin at caci.co.uk>
Subject: Subject: Re: SC - My First Feast as Head Cook

niccolo difrancesco wrote:
	I recommend Whole Pear Pies that can be found in Medieval Kitchen,
IIRC.  It is paers baked in pastry crust with butter and granulated sugar.
they are to DIE for.  The bottom crust is candied and glorious.  You do four
or so in a crust.  We did three in a crust in bread loaf pans for support.

I second Niccolo's recommendation. I made these for the Lammas Feast last
year, and they went with a whoosh! Plus they are so easy to do that even
people like myself (who should never be allowed near the baked goods section
of the feast), find them simple to make.

Here is the original and my redaction:

Whole Pear Pie MK#97 (VT XV Le Viandier de Guillaume Tirel dit Taillevent)
Pies of raw pears. Stand three large pears in a pie and fill the gaps with
about a quarteron [aprx 4 ounce/120g] of sugar, cover well, and glaze with
eggs or saffron, and put it in the oven.

	Cut 3 large pears in halves, place in a pie (I used store-bought
shortcrust pastry, but you can always make this yourself) and cover with
sugar, preferably caster. Cover. Glaze with eggs or saffron and bake. 
	Despite the amount of sugar this dish isn't over-sweet, and the
flavor comes through nicely. I don't particularly like pears (mainly the
texture) but this is one of my favorite dessert dishes.

Ciao
Lucrezia
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia   |  mka Tina Nevin
Thamesreach Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald | London, UK


Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:58:25 -0400
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Apple and pear pie?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> I remember some years ago running across a recipe, probably in the
> Elizabethan corpus somewhere, for a mixed apple and pear pie.
> Anyone have any ideas where I might find something like this?  

This is from the feast booklet from The Barony of the Middle March's
Twelfth Night

Tartys in Applis, Diverse Servicia #82

Tak gode applys & gode spyces & figys & reysouns & perys, & wan they
are wel ybrayd colour wyth safroun & do yt in a cofyn, & do it forth
to bake wel.

Take good apples and good spices and figs and raisins and pears, and
when they are chopped small, color with saffron and put them in a
pastry crust and do it forth to bake well.

This was served as apples and pears as a filling for a bread ring.
The "Five gold rings" for a Twelve Days of Christmas theme.

Ranvaig


Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 20:29:11 EDT
From: Etain1263 at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Apple and pear pie?
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

karobert at unm.edu writes:
> [recipe] for a mixed apple and pear pie.

Tartys in Applis

Tak gode applys & gode spycis & figys & reysons & perys, & wan they arn we
ybrayd colour wyth safroun wel & do yt in a cofyn, & do yt forth to bake wel.
DS 82 (in Curye on Inglysch) ..or to make it easier: Pleyn Delit 120

Etain


Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 08:21:05 +0100
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period German menus
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Am Donnerstag, 8. Februar 2007 09:34 schrieb ranvaig at columbus.rr.com:

> Do you know anything more about the Hungarian torte with many leaves
> (layers), that sounds interesting.  I wonder if it has a meat filling
> or is sweet?

If this is the one you mean, it's sweet. And good.

HUNGARIAN APPLE TART

Nim Epffel / die klein gehackt seyn / wie man sie zu einer Turten zurichtet /
mach ein an Teig von schoen weissem Mehl / mit warmem Wasser / unnd mach in
nicht gar zu dick. Auff den Boden mach ein Blat von Eyern unnd Butter / so
wirt der Teig desto muerb / thu die Epffelfuell darauf / nim den Teig den du
von Wasser gemacht hast / zeuch in mit der Handt fein duenn au? / wie ein
Schleyer / und mach solcher Bletter zwentzig oder dreyssig auffeinander /
unnd bestreich ein jegliches Blat / ehe du es aufeinanderlegst / mit  frischer
Butter / und wenn du sie hast auffeinander gelegt / so beschneits fein
rundt / und scheubs in Ofen / und schaw verbrenn es nit / so baeckt sichs
geschwindt / und lauffen die Bletter fein auff. / Ists aber an eim
Fleischtage / so bestreich sie mit Speck / der fein zerlassen ist / un gibs
warm auff ein Tisch / bestraew es mit Zucker / so ists schowen un zierlich.
Un also macht man die Ungerische Turten.

Take apples chopped finely, as you prepare them for tarts and make a dough
with fine white flour and warm water, not too thick. Place a layer of dough
made with butter and eggs on the bottom so it is nicely crumbly.  Spread the
apple filling on that. Now take the dough you made with water and pull it
apart with your hands, as thin as a veil. Make twenty or thirty of these
leaves, all stacked on top of each other, and before you stack each one,
spread it with fresh butter. Once they are stacked, trim the edges into a
circle shape and place it in the oven. Watch out so it does not burn. It
bakes quickly and the leaves rise nicely. If it is a meat day, use melted
lard instead of butter. Serve it warm, sprinkled with sugar, so it is good
and pretty. Thus Hungarian tarts are made.

1/2 lb flour
1/2 lb butter
water

1/2 lb flour
1/4 lb butter
1 egg
water
salt

3-4 apples
sugar

sugar
butter
flour

Make 1/2 cup of flour into a stiff paste with water. Reserve. Work 1/4 lb
butter into 1/2 lb flour, add a pinch of salt and work it into a soft dough
with egg and water. Roll out and use to line a buttered and floured pie dish.
Peel, core and chop apples and sugar to taste (cinnamon and cloves also
harmonise). Spread this on the pie crust. Divide the water paste into 20
pieces and roll or pull them apart as thin as possible. Brush with melted
butter and stack. (it is also possible to make conventional puff pastry by
rolling out the paste, placing bits of butter on it, folding it over, rolling
it out again and repeating the process as often as needed) Place on top of
pie dish, covering the content completely, and trim edges neatly.  Bake at
175 degrees C till slightly browned, sprinkle with sugar and serve.

Giano


Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:29:00 -0500
From: "Barbara Benson" <voxeight at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period German menus
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Do you know anything more about the Hungarian torte with many leaves
> (layers), that sounds interesting.  I wonder if it has a meat filling
> or is sweet?

From what I have been able to determine - a Hungarian Torte is more of
a method of making a pie/tart than a specific dish. As good Giano
posted his redaction, it seems to be a pie with a specific type of
lower crust, a filling and then lidded with the equivalent of puff
pastry as opposed to your standard two crust pie.

I have seen different recipies in Rumpoldt for Hungarian Torte with
any number of different fillings, if you are looking for something
specific - let me know and I will see if I can find it. I had good
luck with that when planning my feast. There are tons of recipies for
Dumpling/Meatballs and I decided I wanted to do a lamb meatball. I
looked through the chapter on lamb - and voila there was a lamb
meatball recipie. (sort of, actually it said to make lamb meatballs
referr to earlier chapter on veal - but they were delish - prepared
braised in an almond sauce).

Serena da Riva


Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 14:23:49 -0400
From: "Barbara Benson" <voxeight at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Dredge?
To: "Cooks List" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

In doing research I came across the following recipe in The Good
Huswife's Handmaid:
http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/ghhk/

To bake Peaches.
TAke Peaches, pare them, and cut them in two peeces, & take out the
stones as cleane as you can for breaching of the Peach: then make your
pie three square to bake fowre in a pie, let your paste be verie fine,
then make your dredge with fine Sugar, Synamon and Ginger: and first
lay a little dredge in the bottome of your pies: Then put in Peaches,
and fill vp your coffins with your Dredge, and put into euery coffin
three spoonfuls of Rosewater. Let not your Ouen be too hot. &c.

The "make up your dredge" thing implies to me a technique that they
are not making terribly clear. "Filling up your coffins" with your
dredge implies to me that there is a lot more going on here than
sugar, cinnamon and ginger. There has to be more to it. There is only
one more recipe in the manuscript that calls for a dredge and it is
the next one:

To bake pippins.
TAke your pippins and pare them, and make your coffin of fine paste,
and cast a little sugar in the bottome of the pie. Then put in your
Pippins, and set them as close as ye can: then take sugar, sinamon,
and Ginger, and make them in a dredge, and fill the Pie therewith: so
close it, and let it bake two houres but the Ouen must not be too hot.

Very similar. Has anyone stumbled across anything similar. It has to
be some sort of additional filling or technique. Any thoughts would be
greatly appreciated.
--
Serena da Riva


Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:39:57 -0700
From: Dragon <dragon at crimson-dragon.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dredge?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Barbara Benson wrote:
The "make up your dredge" thing implies to me a technique that they
are not making terribly clear. "Filling up your coffins" with your
dredge implies to me that there is a lot more going on here than
sugar, cinnamon and ginger. There has to be more to it. There is only
one more recipe in the manuscript that calls for a dredge and it is
the next one:

Very similar. Has anyone stumbled across anything similar. It has to
be some sort of additional filling or technique. Any thoughts would be
greatly appreciated.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Actually, I think it is exactly as simple as it looks. The mixture 
used is called the dredge, in this case the sugar, cinnamon and 
ginger, in verb form it means to coat something in a dry mixture (as 
in to dredge in flour).

These recipes make fruit pies, the sugar cinnamon and ginger will 
combine with the juices from the fruit during baking to produce a 
flavorful syrup that will (hopefully) thicken and set from the pectin 
in the fruit as the pie cools. Modern recipes often add a starch to 
the dredge to improve the thickening action but if you have good, 
properly ripened fruit, it really should not be an issue.

I'd suggest a slight modification to the recipe instructions by 
coating the fruit in the dredge and then placing in the crust. It 
will be better distributed and should give a much better result.

Dragon


Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 12:13:44 -0700
From: Dragon <dragon at crimson-dragon.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dredge?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< I'd suggest a slight modification to the recipe instructions by 
coating the fruit in the dredge and then placing in the crust. It 
will be better distributed and should give a much better result.

Dragon >>>

But the recipe doesn't call for just coating the fruit, it asks you 
to "fill vp your coffins," which is, I suspect, the confusing 
part.  Unless you have very small pieces very closely packed, you're 
going to end up with a *lot* of "dredge" in your coffin.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

I think this is one of those things that may well be open to 
interpretation and may also be very much influenced by the 
differences in ingredients between now and then. Remember that white, 
refined sugar was available but not common. I think that is very 
significant in that it is likely that the sugar in use for most such 
recipes would have been "cone" sugar which would have had to be 
grated before use. If you have ever used this type of sugar, it has a 
rather light, slightly moist, and fluffy texture somewhat like a 
light brown sugar unless you compact it. If you just sprinkle it in, 
you won't have quite as much sugar in the pie as you might think.

You could literally fill the coffin with the sugar and yes, this 
would be a lot of sugar, even with the cone sugar. But it also 
doesn't say to pack the sugar in and around the fruit. If you use 
modern granulated sugar, it will pack in much more densely because 
the grains are uniformly small and have no molasses content so they 
don't stay separate and light like the grated cone sugar would so you 
would use more.

In either case, it's going to produce a syrup when you bake the pie. 
With the larger quantity of sugar it will be a very heavy syrup. My 
suggestion for rolling the fruit in the dredge was to make it 
somewhat lighter.

Dragon


Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 15:22:48 -0400
From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dredge?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--On Thursday, August 07, 2008 2:23 PM -0400 Barbara Benson 
<voxeight at gmail.com> wrote:
<<< Very similar. Has anyone stumbled across anything similar. It has to
be some sort of additional filling or technique. Any thoughts would be
greatly appreciated. >>>

The OED gives:

 {dag}1. A sweetmeat; a comfit containing a seed or grain of spice; a 
preparation made of a mixture of spices; cf. DRAG?E. Obs.
c1350 Med. MS. in Arch?ol. XXX. 390 Ye sed is good fastende to ete, And ek 
in drage after mete. [1377-86 see DRUG n.1] 1401-2 Mem. Ripon (Surtees) 
III. 208 Et in jlib. dragge empt., 5d. [1402-3 dragy]. 14.. Noble Bk. 
Cookry (Napier) 27 Cast on a dridge mad with hard yolks of eggs. c1440 Anc. 
Cookery in Househ. Ord. (1790) 454 Make thenne a dragee of the yolkes of 
harde eyren broken. c1440 Promp. Parv. 130/1 Dragge (v.rr. dragy, dradge), 
dragetum. 1481-90 Howard Househ. Bks. (Roxb.) 367 Item..payed for a box of 
drege xx. d. 1530 PALSGR. 215/1 Dradge, spyce, dragee. 1544 T. PHAER Regim. 
Lyfe (1560) Ivjb, By eatyng of a litle dredge, made of anyse seede and 
coriander. 1601 HOLLAND Pliny II. 108 A drage or pouder of it [thyme] with 
salt, brings the appetite againe. 1616 SURFL. & MARKH. Country F. 48 Take 
fasting a Dredge made of Annise, Fennell, Caraway, and Coriander seed.

The DOST (Dictionary of the Scots Tongue):
Dragy, Dregy, n. Also: dragie, draigie, dreg?, droggie; pl. drageis, 
dregis.  [ME. dragy, dreg? (c 1350), dreg? (1481-90), OF. dragie, dragee.]
    1. A kind of sweetmeat or comfit. Also pl. comfits of this kind.  (1) 
Per empcionem ... duodecim librarum de dragy, expenditarum in domo; 1329 
Exch. R. I. 141.  Sexaginta librarum de dregy; Ib. 221.  De ... lx libris 
de  drege ; 1331 Ib. 409.  Dragy na sic thing brekis nocht fasting, na 
drink sa that it be sobirly tane; Asl. MS. I. 41/11.  For sax quartis vyne 
and sax buistis dragie; 1583-4 Misc. Spald. C. V. 55. (2)  Ane pund of 
grene and reid dregis; 1575 6th Rep. Hist. MSS. App. 657/2.  Tua dosane 
buistis of drageis; 1582 Edinb. Test. XI. 355 b.  Tua pund wecht cullourit 
drageis; 1597 Ib. XXXI. 175 b.

The Middle English Dictionary has essentially the same thing:
(a) A sweet confection, sweetmeat; a sweet sauce or condiment; (b) a sweet 
medicinal preparation; (c) fig. a reward or bribe; ~ of sin, pleasure of 
sin, incentive to sin.

As I recall, Markham (the English Huswife) says about the same thing with 
his cherry tart recipe, but doesn't use the word 'dredge':

Take the fairest Cherries you can get, a npicke them cleane from leaves and 
stalkes, then spread out you coffin as for your Pippin-tart, and cover the 
bottome with Suter, then cover the Suger all over with Cherries, then cover 
those Cherries with Sugar, some sticks of Cinamon, and here and there a 
Clove, then lay in more cherries, and so more Suger, Cinamon and Cloves, 
till the coffin be filled up; then cover it and bake it in all points as 
the codling and pipping tart, and so server it; and in the same manner you 
may make Tarts of Gooseberries, Strawberries, Rasberries, Bilberries, or 
any other Berrie whatsoever.

toodles, margaret


Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 17:19:45 -0400
From: "Barbara Benson" <voxeight at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dredge?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Dragon > 
Actually, I think it is exactly as simple as it looks. The mixture used is
called the dredge, in this case the sugar, cinnamon and ginger, in verb form
it means to coat something in a dry mixture (as in to dredge in flour). >>>

I hesitate to assume that they are using the modern concept of
'dredging' here, which is why I am inquiring of this list if there are
other ideas.

Dragon> 
These recipes make fruit pies, the sugar cinnamon and ginger will combine
with the juices from the fruit during baking to produce a flavorful syrup
that will (hopefully) thicken and set from the pectin in the fruit as the
pie cools. >>>

Peaches are an incredibly low pectin fruit and I doubt they will leach
enough to set up this volume of sugar.

Dragon> 
I'd suggest a slight modification to the recipe instructions by coating the
fruit in the dredge and then placing in the crust. It will be better
distributed and should give a much better result. >>>

Assuming we know what the intended result is. I try very hard to go
into redacting recipes without any preconceived notions of how it will
turn out. This way I can avoid skewing my results towards a more
modern dish and instead attempt to get something as close to the
period as possible.

Sandra > 
But the recipe doesn't call for just coating the fruit, it
asks you to "fill vp your coffins," which is, I suspect, the confusing
part.  Unless you have very small pieces very closely packed, you're
going to end up with a *lot* of "dredge" in your coffin. >>>

That was my initial reaction also, the cutting instructions seem clear
that you are to cut the fruit in two and remove the pit with minimal
"breaching" or breaking of the peach. I believe the halves are
intended to go into the pie as intact as possible. This leaves an
awful lot of room for "dredge". Of course, period peaches were
probably much smaller, but their rounded nature will leave a goodly
amount of head room.

Thank you all for your feedback.

Serena


Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 09:39:08 -0400
From: "Nick Sasso" <grizly at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dredge?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

-----Original Message-----
Sandra > But the recipe doesn't call for just coating the fruit, it
asks you to "fill vp your coffins," which is, I suspect, the confusing
part.  Unless you have very small pieces very closely packed, you're
going to end up with a *lot* of "dredge" in your coffin.

That was my initial reaction also, the cutting instructions seem clear
that you are to cut the fruit in two and remove the pit with minimal
"breaching" or breaking of the peach. I believe the halves are
intended to go into the pie as intact as possible. This leaves an
awful lot of room for "dredge". Of course, period peaches were
probably much smaller, but their rounded nature will leave a goodly
amount of head room.

Thank you all for your feedback.  Ciao!   Serena > > > > > > >

Are we assuming a large coffin?  Is there a dimension somewhere that I
missed?  If we assume a rather shallow one with dimensions rather tight to
our fruit in question, then it ain't so much as we think.  And "fill" may be
taken a bit too literally.  I've seen this as a general instruction in a few
other recipes, and took it to mean to add a fair quantity . . . rather than
"fill all remaining air space available, to the brim".  On the other hand,
pippins and peaches (at least modern ones) seem to be rather juice throwing
fruits when baked.  There would be prodigious syrup made.

On looking at the online reference, though, I found a big clue a few recipes
up.  It gives specific directions to Fill almost full . . . though again no
dimensions are given.  If we follow this trend, then we are to add great
amounts of sugar (if grated and fluffy or fine and dry) to the pie to make
some serious thick syrup to serve in.


To bake Peares, quinces, and wardens.
YOu must take and pare them, and then coare them: then make your paste with
faire water and Butter, and the yolke of an Egge, and sette your Orenges
into 	<<26a 1597>>
the paste, and then bake it well: Then fill your paste almost ful with
Sinamon, Ginger and Sugar: also apples must be taken after the same sort,
sauing that whereas the core should be cut out they must be filled with
butter euerie one: the hardest apples are best, and likewise are Peares and
wardens, and none of them all but the Wardens may be perboiled, and the ouen
must be of a temperate heat, two houres to stand is enough.

niccolo difrancesco


Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 11:29:38 -0700
From: Dragon <dragon at crimson-dragon.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dredge?
To: grizly at mindspring.com, Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Nick Sasso wrote:

Are we assuming a large coffin?  Is there a dimension somewhere that I
missed?  If we assume a rather shallow one with dimensions rather tight to
our fruit in question, then it ain't so much as we think.  And "fill" may be
taken a bit too literally.  I've seen this as a general instruction in a few
other recipes, and took it to mean to add a fair quantity . . . rather than
"fill all remaining air space available, to the brim".  On the other hand,
pippins and peaches (at least modern ones) seem to be rather juice throwing
fruits when baked.  There would be prodigious syrup made.

On looking at the online reference, though, I found a big clue a few recipes
up.  It gives specific directions to Fill almost full . . . though again no
dimensions are given.  If we follow this trend, then we are to add great
amounts of sugar (if grated and fluffy or fine and dry) to the pie to make
some serious thick syrup to serve in.

To bake Peares, quinces, and wardens.
YOu must take and pare them, and then coare them: then make your paste with
faire water and Butter, and the yolke of an Egge, and sette your Orenges
into    <<26a 1597>>
the paste, and then bake it well: Then fill your paste almost ful with
Sinamon, Ginger and Sugar: also apples must be taken after the same sort,
sauing that whereas the core should be cut out they must be filled with
butter euerie one: the hardest apples are best, and likewise are Peares and
wardens, and none of them all but the Wardens may be perboiled, and the ouen
must be of a temperate heat, two houres to stand is enough.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Niccolo makes some very good points here and I too actually thought 
about most of these things after I had posted my original missive.

I suspect that the idea is to use a coffin that would be fairly close 
packed with fruit and while it is still quite a bit of sugar, it 
won't be as much as you might think. Just as in modern fruit pies, I 
would suspect the emphasis in a period fruit tart to be the fruit and 
the size of the coffin used would be a reflection of the quantity of 
fruit used.

Also, pectin is not the only thing at work in thickening the 
resultant syrup. The cooking of the sugar plays a role in that as 
anyone who has ever made candy would be well aware of. Or even if you 
have ever made a simple syrup and let it simmer for 15 to 30 minutes 
then cooled it, you would see it thicken considerably as it cools.

I'd expect that the sugar syrup would be verging on the soft ball 
stage after cooking for two hours in a "temperate" oven. I'm going to 
guess that what is meant there is something in the range of 300F to 
325F. Does anyone have a better read on what temperature this might 
equate to? This just seems about right for everything to cook that 
long without burning.

Dragon


Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 12:36:36 -0700
From: "Lady Celia" <CeliadesArchier at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dredge?
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Dragon said:
<<I'd expect that the sugar syrup would be verging on the soft ball 
stage after cooking for two hours in a "temperate" oven. I'm going to 
guess that what is meant there is something in the range of 300F to 
325F. Does anyone have a better read on what temperature this might 
equate to? This just seems about right for everything to cook that 
long without burning.>>

My Mom's apple pie recipe, which this sounds very much like, used to come
out in a very thick syrup... not quite jelled when hot, but pretty stiff
when cooled.  I recognize that apples have considerably more pectin than
peaches, but she also says that if baking a peach pie, she'd do so on a
lower temperature, for a longer period of time to adjust. And when using
fresh apples, she bakes on a higher temp to begin with (like a custard pie)
and then finishes on a lower temp, but 400 degrees for 30-45 minutes seems
to be about standard... so, yeah... 300-325 for a slow cook sounds about
right to me. 

Celia


Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 02:53:54 -0500
From: "Pat Griffin" <ldyannedubosc at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dredge?
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Since we are to pare them and core them but not to slice them, I should
think it would be a rather tall coffin, and there would be a lot more air
space than if we sliced them, so a lot of room for sugar to settle into.  I
like the idea of filling the core of apples with butter.  
And I'd agree with Dragon that a "moderate" oven would be 300 to 325
degrees.

Lady Anne du Bosc Known as Mordonna The Cook


Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:53:46 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Theatre food in Elizabethan England

On Feb 26, 2010, at 6:32 PM, Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps wrote:
<<< Baked blackberry and elderberry pies
Can anyone suggest a suitable recipe/recipe source.

Daniel >>>

Strange thing about the baked blackberry and elderberry pies--

They turn up as ingredients for wines but I didn't find pies in MWBoC.

In EEBO-TCP (pre 1700 English books), a search on "elderberry" within  
full text, near within 40 characters "pie"
turns up 0 as in zero matches. Same result for blackberry.
Black near pie doesn't yield any recipes.

Black tart stuffe is made of prunes.

OED suggests blackberries may also be 1578 Lyte Dodoens vi. iv. 661  
The Bramble or Blacke berie bushe.
 or
the Black Currant (Ribes nigrum), the `blackberry' of sense 1 being  
there called `Brambleberry'; formerly in some localities the Bilberry,  
or Blaeberry; also, according to some, but perhaps erroneously, the  
sloe or fruit of the Blackthorn.

1567 Maplet Gr. Forest, The blackberie tree is after his sort bushy  
bearing that fruite that eftsones refresheth the Shepherde.

1597 Gerard Herbal (1633) 1417 We in England [call them] Worts,  
Whortleberries, Black-berries, Bill-berries.
So maybe we need another sort of berry pie searched???

Johnnae


Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:44:08 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Elderberries was Theatre food in Elizabethan
	England

<<< Seems like we need to go to the source to determine how they did the 
botanical identifications.  Then perhaps deconstruct,  "CSI fashion" from 
the evidence, what other ingredients were in those pies.  Determining the 
ingredients list we can then attempt to reconstruct the pies.  I only hope 
that they were not working with the long preserved end products of human 
digestion.

Daniel >>>

Davidson in the Oxford Companion to Food gives an interesting quote (American 
Botanist, 1905) about elderberry pie not appealing to many palates due to 
the rank eldery flavor.  A pie needs to be made from full ripe berries that 
have been picked and dried.  The period recipes I've encountered call for 
the flowers rather than the berries.

Bear 


Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 13:40:23 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Welserin #177

<<< Looking for suggestions as to what kind of cheese to use for this recipe:

177 To Make an Apple Tart
Take apples, peel them and grate them with a grater, afterwards fry them in
fat.  Then put in as much grated cheese as apples, some ground cloves, a
little ginger and cinnamon, two eggs.  Stir it together well.  Then prepare
the dough as for a flat cake, put a small piece of fat into it so that it
does not rise, and from above and below, weak heat.  Let it bake slowly.

She specifies Parmesan cheese in some other recipes, though those are more
savory-sounding.  Would this be a softer cheese instead of Parmesan?

Helena >>>

Parmesan would likely work, but an aged Parmesan.  This isn't a sweet dish, 
there is no sugar added beyond what is in the apples.  The spicing has a 
little bite, so I might try an aged Emmenthaler or Provolone to round out 
the flavor.  You'll probably need to experiment to get what you like.

Bear


Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 17:13:16 -0400
From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Welserin #177

Helena,

I looked at the original German to check which 
word was used for the cheese (kes? or K??). I 
hope you don't mind my pointing out that I 
noticed a translation issue with this recipe.

http://www.staff.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/sawe.htm

 Teig or Taig can mean either batter or dough. 
The sentence that is translated as "Then prepare 
the dough (taig) as for a flat cake (fladen)" The 
word "fladen" also appears in recipe 160. I think 
it is telling you to add a batter or custard 
(ormilch), like that recipe but with a little fat 
added.  So the filling is not just apples and 
cheese, but apples and cheese in custard.

You might want to look at 135 which says "Let it 
cook together like egg-milk (ormilch)", so it may 
mean a cooked custard not just a mix of milk and 
egg.

Ranvaig

<<135>> Ain ortorten
Nim 20 or vnnd so?il milch als die air vnnd klopfs woll
vnnderainander, las? vnnderainander sieden wie ain ormilch,
rier dan z?cker dar?nder, mach ain bedellin, streichs
glat, dara?ff th? ain rossenwasser daran vnnd th?s jn die
tortenpfanen, th? gl?t dar?nder vnnd darjber, bach s?
bra?n.

135 An egg tart
Take twenty eggs and as much milk as eggs and 
beat it well together. Let it cook together like 
egg-milk, then stir sugar into it. Make a pastry 
shell and roll it smooth. Then put rose water 
therein and put it into a tart pan, put heat 
under and over it, bake it until brown.

<<160>> Ain fladen z? machen
Nim ain ormilch, die woll a??gesechnet sey, schlag wider
air darein vnnd weinberlen, schlags a?ff den boden, las? sittig
bachen.

160 To make flat cakes
Take egg-milk, which should be well strained, 
beat fresh eggs therein and raisins, throw it in 
a pastry crust and let it bake slowly.

<<177>> Ain tortta von epffel z? machen
Nempt epffel, schelts vnnd stosts ain ribeissen, darnach
rests jm schmaltz/ dan thiet daran so?il geriben kes? als epfel,
ain wenig gestossen negelen, ain wenig jmber vnnd zimerrerlach,
zway air, riert es woll d?rchainander, dan mach
den taig wie z? ainem fladen, th?t ain knepflin schmaltz
darein, damit es sy nit anlaff, vnnd vnnden vnnd oben ain
wenig gl?t, las? gemach bachen.


Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 17:22:23 +0000
From: CHARLES POTTER <basiliusphocas at hotmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Welserin #177

I used Parmesan cheese in a recipe in the Banchetti and though it was too strong a taste, try provolone or a much milder cheese than Parmesan. 

                              Master B

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	fruit-pies-msg	Page 30 of 30