fruit-citrus-msg - 12/15/14

Period citrus fruits. Recipes. Oranges. Limes. Lemons.

NOTE: See also the files: fruits-msg, apples-msg, fruit-melons-msg, fruit-pears-msg, fruit-quinces-msg, desserts-msg, presrvd-lemons-msg, candied-peels-msg, berries-msg, strawberries-msg, plums-msg, Period-Fruit-art.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:08:39 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Julleran's Sugar/C

marilyn traber wrote:
> If memory serves me, limes we use today are a post period subspecies
> cross of lemon and key lime but i may be wrong, though in herbals a lime
> tree is mentioned, it is a temperate deciduous tree fond in england and
> the leaves are used.

As far as I know, there are three types of citrus fruit limes. Persian
limes and Tahitian limes are the Old World varieties, although the
Tahitian lime was discovered by Europeans more or less after the
discovery of the New World Lime, which is the Key lime. Persian limes
are pretty much the only period option, but you'd be most likely to find
them in Indian and Persian dishes. Persian limes are small, maybe two
inches across, roundish, and have a thin skin. (Key limes are even
smaller, spherical, with an even thinnner skin, which is almost yellow
when ripe). Tahiti limes, which have achieved the status thay have
reached in spite of being kinda insipid, but are generally seedless,
easy to peel, and travel extremely well, are large, oblong, and with the
ubiquitous bumps at either end.

Adamantius


Date: Sun, 21 Sep 97 20:26:34 UT
From: "Paul Louis" <pocopup at classic.msn.com>
Subject: RE: SC - Julleran's Sugar/C

Paul Louis wrote:
>       Try the key lime oil . It is very intense, and a little goes a long
> way.I have been using it in my Thai recipies. Great to know that I can use it
> in my SCA cooking too.
> Olga

Where did you get the oil at?
margali

I ordered it, from Sexton, I think. It is available in specialty stores. Brand 
name is "Floribbean" Key Lime Savory Oil.

Olga


Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:32:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: ANN1106 at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Substitute for bitter orange

I have never heard of the orange/lemon juice as a substitute for bitter
orange.  When I make a Bitter Orange Sauce to be used with desserts, I cut
the peel of half of the oranges that I will be using and add this to the
juice.  The sauce is then heated (with cornstarch, sugar and juice of a
lemon).  When ready, the peels are allowed to macerate for 30 minutes before
straining and storing.
Cointreau and Triple Sec are two alcoholic liqueurs that are made from
Seville (Bitter) Oranges.
Audrey (aaparker at aol.com)


Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 18:09:50 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Substitute for bitter orange

ANN1106 at aol.com wrote:
> I have never heard of the orange/lemon juice as a substitute for bitter
> orange.  When I make a Bitter Orange Sauce to be used with desserts, I cut
> the peel of half of the oranges that I will be using and add this to the
> juice.  The sauce is then heated (with cornstarch, sugar and juice of a
> lemon).  When ready, the peels are allowed to macerate for 30 minutes before
> straining and storing.
> Cointreau and Triple Sec are two alcoholic liqueurs that are made from
> Seville (Bitter) Oranges.
> Audrey (aaparker at aol.com)

I have heard of it; while addition of some peel certainly helps with the
bitter aspect, the fact is that Seville oranges aren't nearly as sweet
as most of the varieties available to Americans. Probably a combination
of lemon and orange, with a bit of the orange peel, would be best.

Adamantius


Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:00:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ladypeyton at aol.com
Subject: Re:  SC - Substitute for bitter orange

>I believe I have seen a substitute for bitter orange

My copy of The Miami Spice Cookbook (Cuban cooking) which uses bitter oranges
in every third recipe says that straight lime juice is a suitable
replacement.  Too Hot Tamales on Food TV Network say either a mixture of 1/2
orange juice & 1/2 grapefruit juice or 1/2 orange juice & 1/2 lime juice.

Lady Peyton 


Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:24:20 -0600
From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net>
Subject: SC - A bit Bland--Now Jazzed up

>I have recently whipped up an almond tart, which is remarkably period,
>however that is the only remarkable thing about it.  While I don't know
>much about English cooking in the late 1500's, I would love some...
>topping to use that would be period.
>
>Bogdan

Bogdan, here are a cuple of ideas for your use: Pickled lemons (recipe
follows) which is basically based on anecdotal evidence and adapted from two
other similar recipes, or preserved oranges from Good Huswife's Jewel
(Dawson). Both are English, and fit into your time frame. I can paraphrase
my redaction for the oranges but don't have my source right in front of me.
Devilish Idea: Use both since they have a similar process, and then
alternate the thin slices on the top of the almond tart, making a fan.
Beautiful! Now I feel inspired!  BTW the syrup from both the recipes is
wonderful and makes a great beverage mixed with cold water. So that would
kill two birds with one stone at a forthcoming feast, Yes?

Hope that the oranges/lemons "make" the dish, the next time you try it. I'm
Sorry I saw your message after the offending tart had already been consumed!

Aoife
_______________________________________
Preserved Oranges:

Take four perfect oranges (I like tangerines, actually, because of flavor
and medieval-type size. Bonus: with a thin skin, they are far less bitter
after preserving. I'm not sure how thick the skin of period fruit would have
been, but some recipes such as the original in Dawson have us soaking the
fruit overnight to partially re-hydrate them ). Take two oranges that are
not so perfect. Wash them all. Juice the two imperfect oranges and set aside
the juice (discard the peel). The perfect oranges are treated thusly: Make a
small core-type hole in the stem end big enough to insert your little
finger, pulling out any white membrane attached to the core. Discard.
Holding the orange over a bowl to catch any juice, insert a paring knife and
twist it several times, to break up the membranes inside. Insert your little
finger into the hole and press gently towards the side walls, dislodging as
many seeds as possible. Allow the seeds and juice to flow into the bowl.
Now, take the tip of the knife and prick the outer skin all over fairly
closely together (these pricks do not show up in the finished product). Set
aside and repeat with the remaining three oranges.

On the rangetop, have two large pots of boiling water (2/3 full) going at a
rolling boil. Immerse all the oranges in the first pot. Return to a boil and
boil for five minutes. Remove with a slotted spoon, and place in the second
pot. Discard the water in the first and boil it again with fresh water.
Continue shifting the oranges between pots until they are tender and the
skin is slightly transparant. A thin sliver of the skin should taste citrusy
but not bitter. As this point (which may take 5-7 boilings), set the oranges
aside in your drippings-bowl to drain.

In a clean saucepan, put one cup of water, all the orange juice, all the
drippings (strained of seeds), and 2 cups sugar. Beat in the white of one
egg with a whisk. Slowly bring to a boil and continue beating, until you are
sure no threads of egg white will form. Scum off any foam that rises (there
will be a lot---discard it or eat it as you please). Carefully lower the
oranges into the sugar syrup, and simmer for about 5 minutes. Turn the fire
off and let the oranges cool in the pot. They can be sealed airtight and
stored in the fridge, or they can be canned. I kept mine on the counter, in
a period method sealed with a waxed parchment on top, but it grew a beard of
white mold. When the mold was removed, however, the oranges were uneffected.
I can't keep them longer than a month (they're devoured), so I can't speak
to longevity.

That's the gist of the recipe that won me the Dessert category at Ice
Dragon, served with almond butter and crisp flaky pastry rounds . Hope it
works for you!

__________________________________

Pickled Lemons (adapted from Preserved Orenges, Dawson, and A Sallet of
Lemons from A book of Fruits and Flowers, and various  anecdotal evidence
such as  Elizabeth Ayreton's Food in Briton, etc.). This recipe copyright
1997 by L. Herr-Gelatt.

2 blemish-free lemons
Juice  and zest of 1 lemon (no white)
1 cup white wine (sweet, like Rhine wine)
1 c.  sugar
1/3 cup vinegar (I used home-made costmary/lemon verbena vinegar)

Cut a small round hole in the 2 lemons the size of the end of your little
finger. Remove the piece of peel. Insert  a paring knife into the hole and
give it several twists to loosen and break the membranes. Insert little
finger and press gently against the flesh to try and loosen any pits. Remove
the pits that fall out, and reserve the draining lemon juice for syrup, below.

Gently bring to boil 1 quart of water in a suacepan. Lower lemons into the
pan and boil rapidly 5 minutes. Remove and drain. Repeat 3 more times with
fresh water (it is more efficient to have a pan heating while boiling in
another). Drain them well.

In a separate saucepan combine remaining ingredients (and the drained lemon
juice from above). Bring to a boil to combine, and turn off heat. When
lemons have been boiled in the 4 changes of water, put them (drained) into
the wine-syrup mixture and bring to a boil. Reduce heat and simmer approx.
15 minutes or until syrup volume has reduced by 1/3-1/2. Cool. Remove lemon
zest and reserve for another use (it is now candied).

Store in an airtight container. Slice lemons thinly  or dice and use pieces
in salads.


Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:00:54 -0400
From: "Paul and Jillian Louis" <pocopup at email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Blood Oranges

I remember a bit of information about blood oranges from my teaching days,
unfortunately I do not have the sources from whence I picked this up,
Blood oranges were found by the crusaders on the island of Malta.  Hence the
name of the Hollandaise variante that uses their juice " Sauce Maltaise"
They have a dark red interior when they are ripe. if they are harvested too
imature, the juice is bitter. When allowed to ripen on the tree their juice
is sweeter than your average navel orange.
If you wish to work in with blood orange juice in large quantities there is
a good product on the market from Assoline and Ting.
hope this helps,
Olga


Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:58:31 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Blood Oranges

> The orange used in medieval times was the Seville, or sour orange, which I
> believe is still available in Europe. I use the sour Valencias off my mom's
> tree to approximate the taste.
>
> Renata

According to ye olde quick ref, oranges originate in China and were
transplanted into India from there, then from India into the Middle East.
Seville oranges (Citrus aurantium) were introduced into Spain by the Moors
and from there into Europe.

The Portuguese introduced a variety of sweet oranges from Japan about 1529.
I suspect, but do not know, that these were C. reticulata, which include the
mandarine orange, the tangerine and the Satsuma varieties.

C. sinensis, which are sweeter still and include Navel and Valencia oranges,
were introduced to Europe about 1635.

Given those points, your Valencias may actually be Sevilles.

I've been trying to find Sevilles locally without much luck.  I wanted to
try my hand at making marmalade.

Bear


Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 17:25:38 -0900
From: "Reia M. Chmielowski" <kareina at eagle.ptialaska.net>
Subject: RE: SC - Re: Pine Nut Confection -- One Last Time

>Limes were cultivated in the Indus Valley about 4000 BC and in China around
>700.  So the question is, when did they get to Europe?  Unfortunately, I
>don't have any other sources handy to cross reference.

According to _The Visual Food Encyclopedia_ published by Macmillan USA 1996
  ISBN 0 -02-861006-7

"The lime tree was brought to France and Italy by the Crusaders in the 13th
Century."  It doesn't happen to cite its source, but then encyclopedias
often don't within articles...

- --Kareina


Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:29:43 +0000
From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au>
Subject: re: SC - Re: Limes

At 08:03 06/01/1999 -0700, Gwen-Cat wrote re limes:
>Citron shel uberzogen
>Limone shel uberzogen
>
>I translate this as Lemon peel coated and Lime peel coated...

I agree that Limone is lemon, but I think Citron is likley to be Citron -
another member of the citrus family.  The fruit is pale green, about the
size and shape of an avacodo but with *very* thick citrus skin (almost the
entire fruit). The candied peel/fruit is still used in many German and
Italian recipies - I buy it from the deli. It has a great taste, similar to
but distinct from candied lemon peel.

Rowan


Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:47:40 -0700 (MST)
From: grasse at mscd.edu
Subject: Re: SC - Re: Limes

Grettings again,

I have another question before I try to answer further... If the Spanish
(whom I would consider European) introduced the lime to the west Indies -
where did they get it from?

As promised I did some further rummaging in Rumpolt, as well as in Cerruti,
Gerard, and some others.

Rumpolt (as I am sure you are familiar with) has (in the section on sauces?
- - have only had him 2 {filled with mundane and prior commitments} weeks,
so
I have not yet explored him fully) 2 recipes specific to Zitron and 1 for
Limonien (I double checked the spellings he uses, my original spellings
were in error.)

In my translation I will use the word lemon, though for the argument one
could also use the word citron - Marx does not speak of cooking either and
I do not know if raw citron is (was?) palatable?

#6 uses "breit geschnitten zitron mit weissem zucker bestrauet/ fein gut
und wohl geschmack"  (thick?) cut lemons sprinkled with white sugar/ fine
good and well tasty.

#7 uses "klein gehackt zitron mit weissem zucker der wohl gestossen ist
abgemacht"
 small (finely) chopped lemon seasoned with well crushed white sugar.

#23 states "nim saur frishe limonien wals gie das sie weich werden/
schneidt sie von einander und druck den saft herauss/ tue die kern davon/
mach ab mit zimmet und zucker/ so ists gut un wohlgeschmack/ du kanst auch
solchen saft der lecker (?sorry can't read my scribbles this morning) ist
sieden lassen mit gelautertem zucker un wen er fein dick gesotten so kan
man zum braten brauchen
My interpretation is (though for arguments sake insert lemon instead of
lime if you wish)
take sour limes, roll (I am guessing walg equates to welz - to roll-
rolling on the counter ) so they become soft, cut them apart and squeeze
the juice from them, remove the seeds, then season with cinnamon and sugar
so that it is good and tasty.  You can also also take such (tasty?) juice
(before or after seasoning I can't tell) and simmer it with (gelaeutertem -
another I'm not sure word) sugar and when it has become fine and thick so
use it for a roast.  I assume to accompany like a jelled sauce.

I would love to experiment with the above recipies using lemons, limes and
citrons, to see how they react and taste using his techniques, but  I have
no clue where in Denver (CO, US) to obtain fresh citron...
My thought being that if fresh citron is inedible raw chopped with sugar
then Zitron should equate to Lemon, but the cooked thickened stuff would
probably taste well made with either lemon or lime, so it would probably
not prove anything. (besides I still wouldn't know how it would taste with
period grown lemons/citrons/limes...)

The other thing that led me to make the equations I have made (Zitron =
lemon; Limionen = lime) rather than Zitron = citron and Limione = lemon is
that Limione =lemon is using English words; (the modern German  is Zitrone
= lemon; Limone/Limette = lime. )  Rumpolt is writing German,  when he
speaks of preparing Star he is not writing of cooking celestial bodies but
of using starling - a small domestic song bird.  Most of the ingredients he
uses sound out into the modern German words.  Certainly not definitive
proof, but that is how I arrived at my assumption.

I am not aware of a German OED (OGD??? ;-)) but if one is found I would be
thrilled!  I believe the main branch of the local library has some middle
German reference books, and I will endeavor to visit them soon.

Gwen-Cat
Caerthe


Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:37:39 -0700
From: Ronda Del Boccio <Serian at plinet.com>
Subject: SC - Limes -- from EB

Limes:

Limes probably originated in the Indonesian archipelago or the nearby
mainland of Asia. The Arabs may have taken limes, as well as lemons, from
India to the eastern Mediterranean countries and Africa around AD 1000.
Limes were introduced to the western Mediterranean countries by returning
crusaders in the 12th and 13th centuries. Columbus took citrus-fruit seed,
probably including limes, to the West Indies on his second voyage in 1493,
and the trees soon became widely distributed in the West Indies, Mexico,
and Florida.

Copyright 1994-1998 Encyclopaedia Britannica


Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:42:34 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - Citrus Fruit History (long)

I have just been reading the first chapter of a multi-volume work called
_The Citrus Industry_, which goes into considerable detail about what the
evidence is on what citrus fruit came into use when and where. This is a
summary of its conclusions.

The author of this chapter, Herbert John Webber, concludes that all citrus
are native to southern Asia and the Malay Archipelago. Cultivated citrus go
way back in China; the earliest mention he knows of concerns tribute
(oranges and pummeloes) given to an emperor around 2200 B.C. A Chinese book
on oranges written in 1178 A.D. describes some twenty-seven varieties of
sweet, sour, and mandarin oranges, as well as kumquats and citrons.

The citron seems to be the first citrus fruit known in the West, having
become established in Persia by around 500 B.C. and spreading slowly around
the eastern end of the Mediterranean from there. The Romans of the first
century A.D probably grew citrons in the southern parts of Italy and knew
of lemons and sour oranges, although it seems to be debatable whether or
not they grew them. The collapse of the Roman empire seems to have left
citrons growing, in part growing wild, in Sicily and southern Italy, and no
other citrus surviving in Italy.

The Arabs continued the spread of citrus fruit; by the 10th century the
sour orange was known and there were references to importing new varieties
from India, and by the 12th century lemon, sour orange, citron, and pummelo
had all made it as far as Spain and North Africa. There is also a 12th
mention of the pummelo in Palestine by a Christian pilgrim, and a
13th-century Arab reference to what is probably lime. By the 13th century
lemon, sour orange, citron, and what is probably lime are described from
northern Italy.

The sweet orange is mentioned in a few documents from the second half of
the 15th century as growing in Italy and southern France, and seems to have
been fairly widely grown in southern Europe by the early 16th century. In
1520 or thereabouts the Portuguese brought a new and superior sweet orange
variety from China, which then spread around the citrus-growing areas of
Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries. Mandarin oranges do not seem to have
made it to Europe until the early 19th century.

The pummelo or shaddock, which is a thick-skinned citrus fruit about the
size of a grapefruit, seems to have followed the same paths across Europe
and the Arab world as the sour orange and lemon. It was introduced to the
West Indies by the 17th century; the grapefruit, probably a mutation from
the shaddock, is first mentioned in 1750 from Barbados.

Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook


Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:44:38 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Citrus Fruit History (long)

Just a brief followup to Elizabeth's post.

It turns out that both Citron and Sour Orange trees are still available,
although not terribly common. I bought one of each today from a nursery in
Fremont that specializes in citrus (I gather that the founder is the person
responsible for developing the grafted dwarf citruses a few decades back).
The citron is an Etrog--still used in Jewish ritual. The orange is a
Seville Orange, still used for marmalade and (according to the tag) Middle
Eastern cooking.

So in a few years, if all goes well, we can make our naranjiya right.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:05:32 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Citrus Fruit History (long)

At 7:34 AM -0500 3/6/99, Tollhase1 at aol.com wrote:
>Is this Fremont Ohio perchance, I could not get that lucky?  I would love to
>find out the size of oranges used in an apple orange tart.  Just how
>sweet/tart were period oranges?

Fremont California, I'm afraid. But there is at least one source for both
trees in California that is on the web and sells mailorder--Pacific Tree
Farms at:

http://www.kyburg.com/ptf/Default.htm

The nursery where I got my trees gave me a sour orange from one of their
trees. It weighs just under a quarter of a pound. I don't know how typical
that is. I haven't tasted it yet, but I gather that they are too sour for
eating out of hand, and used mostly for marmalade.

What is the source for your apple orange tart recipe? If it is 16th or 17th
century, it might be using sweet oranges.

David Friedman
Professor of Law
Santa Clara University
ddfr at best.com
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:02:55 -0000
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>
Subject: Re: SC - Oranges and "orange" - OT/(?)OOP

Bear wrote:
>It appears to have originally been a town and region in southeast France,
>Orenge.
>as to when it was first used to describe the color, I have no information
at
>present.

According to The Gourmet´s Guide by John Ayto:

"The Spanish naturalized naranj as naranja, but when the word penetrated
further north to France in the late thirteenth century it became transmuted
to orenge, later orange, perhaps partly undir the influence of the town of
Orange, in southeastern France, a centre of the orange trade ... Orange is
first recorded as a colour term in the sixteenth century." There is also
some speculation that the term may have been influenced by the French word
"or", gold.

Mark Morton says in Cupboard Love: " ... what did the English call the
colour orange before they adopted the word orange? To some extent, other
colours did double duty: fire, for example, was described as being red.
However, not much of this double-dutying was actually neccessary because in
rainy, grey, medieval England orange was simply not a colour that commonly
appeared in nature ... it´s little wonder that their vibrant appearance gave
rise to a new colour name."

I might add that orange was not a color frequently seen in rural Iceland in
the early sixties, either. When we used it, even to describe the oranges we
had about once a year, we called it "rau›gult" (red-yellow). I hardly ever
heard the Icelandic term equivalent to orange ("appelsínugult",
yellow-as-an-orange) until much later. So I can well believe that there was
little need for a separate name for this color in medieval times.

Nanna


Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:42:14 +1000
From: "HICKS, MELISSA" <HICKS_M at casa.gov.au>
Subject: SC - RECIPES: Orange Cakes from Fettiplace

Lorix,

> The recipe basically consisted of taking the
> flesh of LOTS of oranges with an equal weight
> of sugar, combining and then rolling into
> little balls and baking.

Ok, Fettiplace has the following (it also has a recipe for candied orange
peel (do you want that one too?).  Please advise if this is not the recipe
you wanted.

Meliora.

To Make Cakes of Orenges

Take some oringes & take out the meat of them, then pick them cleane from
the white skins, & stamp them in a stone morter, very fine, then take away
the iuice that is too much, & wey to a pound of the orenges a pound of the
finest white sugar beaten very fine, & put it to your orenges, beating them
all together a good while till they bee throughlie mingled, then take it
out, & lay them upon plates, of what fashion you best like, but they must be
very thin, then set them to drying, & when they bee half dry, turne them,
they wilbee soone dry.

Spurling's directions seem to be (I have occasionally paraphrased here):

Peel the fruit carefully, removing all of the white pith, and discard the
peel (or use in another recipe).  Remove the pips, reduce the orange flesh
to a paste in a stone mortar or electric mixer, and strain off any surplus
juice.  Weigh this paste and pound it again with an equal weight of white
sugar.  Pour the mixture onto a large flat plate and set in a warm place,
turning it as soon as the top has dried out, so as to harden off the
underside.

Spurling adds that these taste especially delicious if you dry them off in a
slow oven till they begin to brown and caramelize, when they can be rolled
by hand into little balls or drops with a dark, burnt-orange taste to serve
after dinner with coffee.


Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:57:24 -0500
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - ETROG JELLY

At 8:28 AM -0400 10/17/99, Seton1355 at aol.com wrote:
>Jews have a holiday just like Thanksgiving called *Sukkot*  (Festival of the
>Booths)  Anyway as part of the religious practices they use a fruit called an
>etrog which looks almost exactly like a lemon. When the holiday is over, what
>do you do with the very expensive lemon thingie??  You make Etrog Jelly .. Of
>course!  Here is a recipe I came across.

The etrog is a variety of citron--the oldest (I think) of the citrus fruit.
It was known in Europe throughout out period, and appears in the Andalusian
cookbook. And I have one growing by my driveway--although, given how slowly
citrus trees grow, it may be a while before it produces any fruit.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:54:24 -0000
From: nanna at idunn.is (Nanna Rognvaldardottir)
Subject: Re: SC - Help for Novices

Cadoc wrote:
>Clementines are small oranges from California, I think, kinda like a
>tangerine...

Clementines are a tangerine/Seville orange hybrid which originated in Oran
in Algiers around 1900 but were introduced into Florida in 1909 and
California in 1914. They are named after the original grower, Father
Clément. It has few seeds and is juicy and usually quite tasty.

Nanna


Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:00:31 -0600
From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com>
Subject: SC - Re: SC- Tidbits

Bluwlf17 at cs.com writes:
<< How period are lemons?  Did they have citris trees in Europe? >>

>In southern Europe, yes.  I know lemons show up in Elizabethan recipes, and
>oranges as early as the 15th century for northern Europe.
>Brangwayna Morgan

>According to Barbara Santich in _The Original Mediterranean Cuisine_,
>citrus trees originated in India, and were introduced to Mediterranean
>Europe by the Arabs.  They were "reasonably common" in Italy by the
>13th century.

>Citrus fruits (and their juices) are most common in period recipes from
>southern Europe, especially Spain and Italy.
>Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Actually, lemons were a well known fruit in Roman times,
imported from Asia minor.   They never caught on in cooking
of that time however; they were only used as decorative fruit.
Probably there were a few instances of trees in southern
Italy grown from seed, but they were likely curiousities and
died out with the fall of Rome.  Therefore, they were Re-introduced
from the Arabic cultures, likely through Portuguese traders in the
early 13th century.  Lemons were grown in Persia in biblical times.

Akim


Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:18:56 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: SC- Tidbits

>>Citrus fruits (and their juices) are most common in period recipes from
>>southern Europe, especially Spain and Italy.
>>Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
>
>Actually, lemons were a well known fruit in Roman times,
>imported from Asia minor.   They never caught on in cooking
>of that time however; they were only used as decorative fruit.
>Probably there were a few instances of trees in southern
>Italy grown from seed, but they were likely curiousities and
>died out with the fall of Rome.  Therefore, they were Re-introduced
>from the Arabic cultures, likely through Portuguese traders in the
>early 13th century.  Lemons were grown in Persia in biblical times.

My readings suggest that the reintroduction was also occuring via Sicily and
Spain.  Sicily after it was retaken by the Normans, Roger the Count and his
son Roger the King, as a "prelude" to the first Crusade.  By the way Ricard
the Lionheart's sister was married to the King of Sicily.

I have a recipe for very early 17th century lemonaid and a "sangria" type
drink made with red wine, apples, and lemons.   If anyone is interested I
will supply the  reference and the recipes.

Daniel Raoul le Vascon de Navarre'


Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:58:33 EST
From: Aelfwyn at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re:Juice of Sour Oranges

The juice I mentioned for the _Medieval Kitchen_ recipe is in a 24oz. bottle. 
Labeled: GOYA Naranja Agria Bitter Orange marinade from concentrate. with a 
pretty picture of some oranges. Ingredients say: water, Seville orange juice 
concentrate, Seville orange pulp cells, preservatives....Now before folks can 
flame about this being a from concentrate product, please consider that some 
of us live in less than optimal food shopping areas. In 30+ years of grocery 
shopping in Maine I have never seen actual Seville oranges that I could buy 
and squeeze. 

Aelfwyn


Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 23:29:18 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: Jucie of sour oranges

And it came to pass on 2 Apr 00,, that Aelfwyn at aol.com wrote:
> We used the stuff straight from the bottle as if using the fresh juice.

I just got hold of the Goya sour orange marinade.  It says "from 
concentrate", and it does seem to be re-constituted to juice 
consistency.  I found it more sour than the orange-lemon mixture that 
_The Medieval Kitchen_ recommends -- much closer to the lemon end 
of the spectrum.  Nice stuff -- I am pleased to have learned about it.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)


Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 15:49:09 +1000
From: "Glenda Robinson" <glendar at compassnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: SC - SAVILLE ORANGES

> ALSO.... I did buy a tin of saville oranges.  The can says just add 6 LB of
> sugar and some water and you get orange marmalde.   But if I don't want to
> make marmalade, what else can I do with it?
> Phillipa

A tin of oranges? I think I'll leave it alone!

However, Elinor Fettiplace has some recipes for lozenges/suckets called

Cakes of Orenges

Take some orenges & take out the meat of them, then pick them cleane from
the white skins, & stamp them in a stone morter, very fine, then take away
the juice that is too much, & wey to a pound of the orenges a pound of the
finest white sugar beaten very fine, & put it to your orenges, beating them
all together a good while till they bee throughlie mingled, then take it
out, &  lay them upon platesm of what fashion you best like, but they must
bee very thin, then set them to drying, & when they bee half dry, turne
them, they welbee soone dry.

Best made, according to  Hilary Spurling, with Seville oranges.

Quite an easy recipe, by the looks. I'll be trying it for our route march
(aka March or Die - 21km) in August (if I can get some sour oranges -
hopefully fresh and not tinned - Australia has an amazing amount of really
cheap fruit)

Glenda.


Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:23:04 -0400
From: "Ron Rispoli" <rispoli at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - pickled limes

From: KallipygosRed at aol.com
>        I have a quest for your food list.  I'm looking for a recipe for
>pickled limes

I haven't tried this yet, so let me know how it goes.
I assumed this is how the British navy kept limes for the sailors.

PICKLED LIMES from the gourmet cookbook (c) 1950

Select fully mature limes, just before they turn yellow.  Scrape them
throughly and rinse.  Pack the fruit, without crushing, in all-glass
containers to within 1 inch of the top and place a weight on top of the
limes to prevent the fruit from rising in the pickling solution.  At no time
should the limes be exposed above the solution.
Completely fill the jars with a brine of 3 tablespoons salt in 1 quart
water.  Adjust the rubber bands and tops on the jars, using only glass tops,
and partially seal.  As fermentation takes place and the liquid recedes, add
more brine, keeping the jars full so that there will be no air space.  The
limes should be cured in 6 to 8 weeks.  Seal the jars completely and store.
The pickled limes may not retain their original color and may turn quite
brown, but this does not affect their edibility.  Kumquats and calamondins
may be pickled in the same way.


Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 19:47:56 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Re: non-messy, period, dayboard-type food

> I'd agree with her as bitter oranges were developed earlier, or so I'm
> told, and also they are easier to work with (less white pith).
> 
> Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise

Not developed earlier, but available via the Moors in Spain.  The sweet
Chinese orange appears to have arrived in Europe in the 15th Century with
Portuguese spice trade.

The first known arrival of oranges (from Spain) in England was about 1290
and early in the 14th Century they were being traded into France through
Nice.

Bear


Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:49:11 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - TI Article - Support Kitchen

At 1:26 PM -0400 9/11/00, LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
>oranges (questionably period, perhaps very late),

As far as I can tell, sweet oranges get to Europe a century or so 
before the end of our period. They are in use in China, of course, 
much earlier. Sour oranges are available for all the usual SCA period 
(i.e. everything after classical antiquity).

Later Ras writes:
>Orange slices are also period albeit
>sweet oranges in Europe would have been somewhat late in SCA period 
>but perhaps not too out of time in the middle east

Do you have evidence that sweet oranges got to the Middle East 
earlier? I'm pretty sure they were coming from China, so it is 
plausible enough, especially given the close ties between the Ilkhans 
and the Mongol rulers of China.
- -- 
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/


Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:52:20 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Seville Oranges (was Re: Protectorate Feast)

Also, for the marmalade, I know that the Bakers Catalogue and sometimes Williams Sonoma sell MaMade Seville oranges canned just for marmalade!

Kiri

"Michael F. Gunter" wrote:
> Rather than settling for Valencias, may I recommend settling for 
> bottled bitter orange juice?


Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:13:32 EDT
From: <KCNCRESS at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: orange history

Elizabeta asks:
{I have been thinking of something orange--but I'm told they are not
"period"--I guess it depends on where you are--I would think that for Spain
& perhaps Italy oranges would have been abundant--does anyone know for sure?}

I couldn't imagine that oranges weren't around in the middle ages.  A brief 
search turned up a fairly comprehensive report by Stephen Hui on just what 
you're looking for.  Check out the url....
http://www.sfu.ca/~shui/resources/orange.html#origins

" The word "orange" originates from Sanskrit. Following its modern-day form 
from France, back to Italy (arancia), Portugal (laranja), Spain (naranja), 
Neo-Latin (arangium, arantium and aurantium), Byzantium (nerantzium), Persia 
(naranj) and India (naranga), we can learn about the immigration of oranges 
from Asia to Europe (McPhee 1967). Citron was well known in the Mediterranean 
region before Christian times (Janick et. al. 1981). Oranges arrived from 
India and by the fall of the Roman Empire, thrived on the Italian Peninsula. 
Sweet oranges are depicted on a mausoleum erected by Constantine (274-337 
CE). However, the first written record of C. sinensis does not appear in 
Europe until the fifteenth century (Cameron and Soost 1976). In the sixth and 
seventh centuries, Muslim armies overran a vast territory stretching from 
India to Spain; orange and other citrus trees decorate their trail. Arab 
traders introduced further varieties of citrus fruits to Europe in the Middle 
Ages. Northern Europe grew acquainted with them because of the Crusades." 

Dejaniera,
Barony of Forgotten Sea, Calontir


Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:11:29 -0500
From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" <aheilvei at uiuc.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: orange history

>Elizabeta asks:
>{I have been thinking of something orange--but I'm told they are not
>"period"--I guess it depends on where you are--I would think that for Spain
>& perhaps Italy oranges would have been abundant--does anyone know for sure?}

"Blood oranges are closer to the medieval orange, which was
a Saville orange."

Thus says my DH Bogdan de la Brasov (he does period cooking and *tons* of 
research on period cooking)

 From what he has told me, they had oranges, it's just that the type they 
had then are no longer genetically available and (above quote) is as close 
as you can get in modern day.

Despina de la Brasov


Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 00:51:14 -0600
From: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net>
Subject: SC - Seville oranges

In looking through a book I purchased today, "Mexican Cooking for Dummies",
I noticed they gave this substitution for Seville Oranges. While it is
better to have the real thing, sometimes you need to make a substitution,
so I thought some might find this useful.

2 parts grapefruit juice
1 part orange juice
2 tablespoons lime juice

While in World Market today I noticed they sold tubs that were for
making Seville Orange Marmalade. The tub said it had everything needed
but sugar. The tub listed Seville Orange juice but also had several
thickeners in it, so I wasn't sure if it would work in the period recipes
calling for Seville Orange juice or not. I will have to take more notes next
time I'm in the store on the exact ingredients.

The book also says about Seville Oranges "Also known as bitter oranges
or naranja agria, this small fruit has thick, green, bumpy skin and is
less juicy than an ordinary orange. Its potent sour juice replaces vinegar
in typical Yucatecan marinades and seasoning pastes. Although bitter
oranges are also found in Puerto Rico and Cuba [obviously an import from
Spain], only Mexicans prize the juice more than the fleshy skin. At 
Mexican markets, the fruit is sold with the top layer of skin removed
so that the bitter oils don't seep into the juice."

What would you do with the skins? Make candied orange peel? I don't
remember the Seville Oranges that I've bought fresh being green, although
I would have said greenish orange rather than bright green. I wonder if
you would pick them green if you were wanting to accentuate the sour
taste? The ones I got were more "bumpy" than regular oranges which
tend to have a smoother skin.
- -- 
THLord  Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mark S. Harris             Austin, Texas         stefan at texas.net


Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:58:17 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - period lime use, rosaries

Stefan wrote:
> Did you find any evidence of use of limes in period? Where and when?

Our summary of the history of citrus in the Miscellany says:

By the 13th  century lemon, sour orange, citron, and what is probably 
lime are described from northern Italy.

The source for that is:
Batchelor, Leon D. and Webber, Herbert John, The Citrus Industry, 1946.

But I can't swear to their exact words. I might be able to dig up our 
photocopy of the chapter if you want their source.
- -- 
David Friedman
ddfr at best.com
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/


Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 23:19:55 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SC - period lime use, rosaries

And it came to pass on 17 Jan 01, , that david friedman wrote:
> Our summary of the history of citrus in the Miscellany says:
> 
> By the 13th  century lemon, sour orange, citron, and what is probably 
> lime are described from northern Italy.

Herrera's agricultural manual (1513) specifically mentions limes in 
the citrus fruit chapter.  Unfortunately, he doesn't go into much 
detail about their use, only that large limes and oranges can be 
preserved whole in a honey syrup.  I haven't noticed any other 
references to limes in the Spanish/Catalan sources.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)


Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 23:34:59 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: SC - period lime use, rosaries

Was asked:
>Did you find any evidence of use of limes in period? Where and when? Did
>you find evidence of them used in beverages?

From "The Illustrated History of French Cuisine" by Christian Guy, 1962 L of
C Cat Number 62-15020.  The most whimsical/outragous reference found for use
of limes in period beverages.

Sir Edward Kennelís Punch
80 casks of brandy
9 casks of water
20,000 large limes
80 pints of lemon juice
13 quintals (1,300 pounds) of Lisbon sugar,
5 pounds of nutmeg
1 huge cask of Malaga wine (approximately equal to 100 regular casks at a
guess)

"It is written that on October 25, 1599, Sir Edward Kennel,
Commander-in-Chief of British Naval forces, offered to those of his command
and guests a mammoth punch which he had prepared in a huge marble basin on
his estate.  A platform was built over the basin to shield it from the rain
and the beverage was served by a ship's boy who rowed around on the sea of
punch in a rosewood boat. It is reported that to serve the 6,000 guests one
ship's boy had to be replaced by another one the quarter hour over and over
again as each boy rapidly became intoxicated by the fumes from the pond of
punch."

Daniel Raoul


Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:10:24 -0500
From: "Richard Kappler" <rkappler at home.com>
Subject: SC - period lime use

Being of a nautical bent (okay, okay, so usually I'm just bent...) my first
thought was to check for uses in combatting scurvy.  A quick survey of my
references provided the following (granted, its late/post period):

"... [W]e have in our owne country here many excellent remedies generally
knowne, as namely, Scurvy-grasse, Horse-Reddish roots, Nasturtia Aquatica,
Wormwood, Sorrell, and many other good meanes... to the cure of those which
live at home...they also helpe some Sea-men returned from farre who by the
only natural disposition of the fresh aire and amendment of diet, nature
herselfe in effect doth the Cure without other helps." At sea, he states
that experience shows that "the Lemmons, Limes, Tamarinds, Oranges, and
other choice of good helps in the Indies... do farre exceed any that can be
carried tither from England."

John Woodall (1556-1643), military surgeon to Lord Willoughby's regiment
(1591), first surgeon-general to the East India Company (1612), surgeon to
St. Bartholomew's Hospital (1616-1643).  Excerpted from _The Surgeon's Mate_
, 1617.

regards, Puck


Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:11:36 -0600
From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: SC - Orange-flower Water

Greetings.  Orange flower water is mentioned in some French recipes (IIRC)
and some of the English material.  I've used it in the milk leche (jellied
milk cubes) and also in marzipan.  Found a reference to using it in marzipan
in someone's book in period.  It's a bit of a "jolt" when one expects rose
water, but I like it.

Alys Katharine


Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:31:26 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: SC - Orange flower water

It's used in some period Spanish recipes, though not nearly as 
often as rosewater.  Nola puts it in a marzipan-and-chicken dish for 
invalids.  Granado uses it in one of his recipes for bizcocho 
(biscotti).  It appears in a lot of the perfume/cosmetic recipes in the 
Manual de Mugeres.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)


Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:19:05 +0200
From: "Jessica Tiffin" <jessica at beattie.uct.ac.za>
Subject: Re: SC - Rose Water - now orange blossom water

Ilia wrote:
> >I was also considering picking up the orange blossom water that they 
> >have. Would it be useful in period cooking? 

Having just acquired Cariadoc's two-volume collection, and having 
spent a happy two weeks digging through Digby and the rest: orange 
blossom water is used in a fair number of English late 
period/Elizabethan biscuitty-style things.  (I don't have the books 
with me so can't give specifics, but there were quite a few).

Lady Jehanne de Huguenin  *  Seneschal, Shire of Adamastor, Cape Town
(Jessica Tiffin, University of Cape Town)


From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:36:43 -0400
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period food myths

On 6 Sep 2001, at 20:50, Laura C. Minnick wrote:
> Sweet oranges are not period but bitter ones are

Sweet oranges are (late) period for the Mediterranean area.  There's
a dinner menu for a Spanish archbishop (February 9, 1568) that
begins with bread, wine, and sweet oranges.

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom


Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:55:06 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] citrons

Citron, citrus medica, has weak lemon flavor and
a thick rind. Fruit may be as large as a foot to
as small as big lemon in size. The rind is what is
used today, although the Italians did squeeze it
to produce a beverage known as acquacedrata in the
17th and 18th centuries. Native to NE India, spread
to Persia by the 6th century BC, from there to Babylon,
to Greece with the returning armies of Alexander. Early
attempts to grow it in the Mediterranean failed, but by
the 1st century AD they were being grown in Italy and
Greece. An odd variety is grown in China where it arrived
in the 4th century AD. It's called a Buddha's Foot and the
fruit is divided into seperate lobes. There has long been a
religious connection with the fruit and the Jewish Feast of
the Tabernacles uses it. Apicius includes it in his work.
It was important in early Arabic cuisine where the rind was
used and eventually candied. It is grown today in Italy, Greece,
Corsica, Morocco, Israel, and the U.S. It is the source of the
candied citron used in fruitcake mixtures.[see Alan Davidson's The
Oxford Companion to Food.]

Johnnae llyn Lewis


From: Seton1355 at aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:21:18 EDT
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] citrons
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Since we are talking about citrons, let me suggest that there is a type of
citron, it looks like a lemon but is a tad larger and has a stem on both
ends.  This type of citron is called an etrog and is used during the holiday
of Sukkot (Jewish Thanksgiving).  Sukkot will come next month some time
(calendar not handy) and if you are living near a big city they are bound to
have a large Orthodox population and they would have citron/ etrog.

Phillipa


Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:45:05 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Citrus Question 

Alan Davidson has two full pages devoted
to oranges in The Oxford Companion to Food.
He says that the original mutation that
produced the distinctive color of the
blood orange was probably 17th century
in Sicily. He notes that Platina mentions
both sweet and tart oranges in his writings.

Johnna Holloway  Johnnae


From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] oranges
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 13:11:12 -0500 

> Information that I have places the reappearance of the orange in Europe in
> the 10th century by the Arabs. I seem to remember that it may have been
> introduced during Roman occupation by Jewish farmer/gardeners who were
> dispersed throughout the Roman empire, but the orange seems to also have
> been a victim of the fall of this empire. I do not have my documentation at
> work. What other info is out there on this?
> Judith

The orange is believed to have been brought out of India or Persia by the
Arabs following the Islamic Expansion.

While there is reference to bananas and citrons by Nearchus, Alexander's
general who invaded Northern India about 325 BCE,  there is no reference to
oranges.  It was Nearchus who introduced the first citrus fruit into the
Mediterranean Basin.

There is no word for orange in either classic or medieval Latin.  Old
Italian uses the word "melarancio" ("mela" = "fruit" + "arancio" = "orange
tree" from the Arabic "naranj") strengthening the idea of an Arabic origin.
Other European languages originate in the Arabic form.  Other than one
mosaic (which may be an artist's error), there is nothing (to my knowledge)
to suggest the Romans had oranges.  Also, Pliny does not note them in his
Natural History, which would have been the case if they were in use in the
Mediterranean Basin prior to the 1st Century.  For these reasons, I question
any source which places oranges in the Roman Empire.

Introduction of the orange by the Arabs could have been as early as the 8th
Century or as late as the 12th for individual locales.  Since the Arabs lost
Sicily in 1091, their introduction of oranges to that island could have been
no later than the 11th Century.  As a general opinion, 10th Century is as
good a date as any.

Bear


Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:20:16 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Citron
T: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Millham notes that with regard to the ancient sources that the fruit was
the citron. With regad to what Platina is calling for, she notes on
page 145 that he means probably the contemporary Italian fruit and that
was the lemon.

On pages 284-286 of Millham, the pork recipe (book vi, 28) calls for
"citri vel" and she says orange or lemon juice. Thethrush recipe (book
vi 29) calls for citra vel and again she says squeeze lemons or oranges.
The recipe for partridges (book vi, 33) calls for "Succus citri aut
malarantii" and she notes that in this case on page 287 that Platina
apparently left out Martio's instructions that one might use also
verjuice as an alternative to the orange and lemon that were suggested
in the recipe.

Millham's notes actually make sense when one looks at Martino and in
checking versions of Martino, (I am using Benporat here beause the
indexing makes it easy) the Rub #23[the pork]says "sugo de naranze o de
limoni" p. 173. On that same page one finds that the Rub #24 [the
thrush] calls for "sugo de pome ranze o limoni." The partridges which
was book vi, recipe 33 in Platina are ound here as Rub 28 on page 174
where the phrase reads: "e uno pocho de pome ranze o limoni o de 
agresto".

The Vat # 28 version [the pork] on page 96 says "di aceto sugo daranci
ho limoni" on page 96. The Vat # 29 version [the thrush] on page 97 says
"d aceto sugo di arancio ho di limoni." The partridges which was book
vi, recipe 33 in Platina in the Vat mss are recipe 33 on page 97. What
is called for here is: "e un pocho di sucho di pome aranci ho di limoni
ho di agresto..."

So yes Martino does call or orange or lemon or even verjuice as Millham
says.

Benporat, Claudio. Cucina Italiana del Quattrocento (1996) contains
among other things the "Ricettatario di Maestro Martino Ms. Urbinate
Latino 1203" here cited as the Vat. version and also the "Ricetrio di
Maestro Martino, Riva del Garda, Archivio Storico here given as Rub.

Hope this helps.

Johnnae llyn Lewis

>> Bear replied to me with:
>>
>>> Stefan, you can't infer that citron is actually being called for from
>>> the
>>> recipes in Platina.  Hewas translating recipes from Italian into
>>> Latin and
>>> there are no Latin words for the various citrus fruits other than
>>> citron
>>> (which arrived in the Mediterranean basin in the 4th Century BCE).  
>>> The
>>> recipes need to be compared to th original Italian recipes by 
>>> Martino
>>> Rossi.  I believe you will find the chicken recipe actually calls for
>>> (Seville) oranges in the original.
>>
>> Yes, there is commentary in my file that covers this. But I'm not sure
>> the info given thereis definative. At least not such that I wanted to
>> keep this possible citron recipe from Anahita. That is one reason that
>> I quoted both the Platina recipe and Millham's translation. In fact 
>> she
>> says lemon or verjuice. So that gives three possile interpretatons,
>> orange, lemon or citron.
>>
>> Stefan
>
> I'm a little busy getting ready for my last day of work, so I can't dig out
> Milham, but as I recall, there is a footnote discussing the differences
> between Martino's recipe and Platia's translation.  As Platina is 
> copying
> Martino's recipes, I would hold that Martino is the definitive source.
>
> Bear


Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:09:30 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Questions about de Nola
To: mooncat at in-tch.com, Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Sue Clemenger wrote:
> 3.  Does anyone have an online or mail-order source for sour orange
> juice? It's just *not* available up here....
> Thanks in advance,
> Maire

Goya products makes it.
http://www.goya.com/english/products/product.html?prodSubCatID=11&prodCatID=4

http://www.goya.com/english/index.html

You might contact them and see if anyone carries the products in your area.

I have come across a number of substitute recipes. One calls for one 
half cup fresh juice, one quarter cup fresh grapefruit juice and one 
tablespoon fresh lime juice. This was labeled as best used fresh.

Another called for one and one quarter cups fresh orange juice mixed 
with one quarter cup mild cider vinegar.

I think the success of these would vary depending on what the original 
recipe was doing with the "bitter" orange juice.

Johnnae llyn Lewis


Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:21:14 -0500
From: "a5foil" <a5foil at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Questions about de Nola
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

This is the formula we use to approximate Seville orange juice. We were
lucky enough to get some bitter oranges to test, and this comes very close
to the taste. It is actually important to use the canned juice, since it is
much more sour than any kind of concentrate or refrigerated juice. And no,
it doesn't taste good by itself, but it seems to give the right flavor in
the recipes.

2 tablespoons unsweetened orange juice, preferably canned
2 tablespoons unsweetened grapefruit juice, preferably canned
2 teaspoons lemon juice, fresh or thawed frozen -- NOT ReaLemon
1/2 teaspoon orange zest
1 drop orange flower water, if possible

Cynara


Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:20:26 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Questions about de Nola
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I can tell you from personal experience with actual Seville orange 
juice, that it tastes like a mix of orange, lemon, AND grapefruit. It 
is bitter - which the grapefruit adds, as well as sour - which the 
lemon adds - and orangey.

I was making that famous de Nola salmon recipe and I happened to have 
fresh orange, fresh lemon, and fresh grapefruit handy, in case there 
wasn't enough Seville orange juice, so I did the experiment of 
tasting the Seville orange juice and then blending the other juices 
to approximate the flavor.

In fact, lemon juice did not add enough sour - the Seville orange 
juice was pretty harsh - so lemon and orange alone do not replicate 
the flavor. The blend needs grapefruit for that necessary touch of 
bitter. What proportions? Well, I don't remember - it was more than a 
year ago - but I'd say start with equal quantities of each of the 
three.

Anahita


Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 10:27:36 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pomecitron
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

>> I am currently reading "Travels in Persia 1627-1629" by Thomas
>> Herbert. In his descriptions of fresh fruits he frequently mentions
>> the "pomecitron" - he also mentions "oranges" and "lemons" -
>> apparently the oranges were sweet since he discusses eating them as
>> is. I wonder if anyone has any idea what it is...
>>
>> Anahita
>>
> David Friedman wrote:
> Could it just be a citron? Is he eating it straight, or is it used in
> cooking?

There are a couple of possiblities.
One is that he is talking about the CITRON, which we candy the peel but don't really eat the fruit of today. Gerald talks about the "citron tree" in his text and then captions the illustration as "Malus medica The Pome citron." It is of a very pleasant smell and had a source juice.

The other would be that he had encountered an Assyrian Apple which
according to Gereald bore a pale yellow fruit that tasted sharp as a lemon.

There would be an outside chance that it's a Pomelo too. Modern pomelos have been recrossed with grapefruits so they don't resemble the fruits of earlier times. In fact all the citrus varieties have been so much improved, it's
hard to match up the fruits of today with what would have been growing wild then.

Johnnae llyn Lewis


Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:34:20 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pomecitron
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I wrote:
>>  I am currently reading "Travels in Persia 1627-1629" by Thomas
>>  Herbert. In his descriptions of fresh fruits he frequently mentions
>>  the "pomecitron" - he also mentions "oranges" and "lemons" -
>>  apparently the oranges were sweet since he discusses eating them as
>>  is. I wonder if anyone has any idea what it is...
>>
>>  Anahita

David Friedman wrote:
>  Could it just be a citron? Is he eating it straight, or is it used in
>  cooking?

Then Johnnae posted other possibilities.

Let me note that Herbert isn't doing any cooking. He's travelling in
a caravan through Persia with an Ambassador from England and an
Englishman working for the Shah of Persia (both of whom die during
the course of their travels). He mentions a number of fruits, the
kinds that are, for the most part, eaten out of hand, although he
includes lemons among them and comments on their pleasant taste. I
don't recall him saying anything very specific about pomecitrons,
just lists them.

Anahita


Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:42:14 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Seville orange substitutions
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I was blessed to have real Seville Orange juice available (courtesy
of Duquessa Dona Juana Isabella) when i cooked a Catalan recipe at
the Mediterranean Tour Feast a year and a half ago.

It tasted VERY much like orange juice mixed with grapefruit juice.
Additionally it was VERY sour, at least as sour as lemon juice and
possibly more so. So i'd mix the three - and less orange juice than
the other two.

At a previous German feast, in a sauce that required Seville Orange
juice and a lot of sugar, i used Seville Orange marmalade diluted and
strained.

Anahita


Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:17:53 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fried Oranges
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

OK, i found this recipe on a website with recipes for a feast held in
memory of Marion Zimmer Bradley, known in the SCA as Mistress Elfrida
of Greenwalls.
http://www.nmia.com/~ariann/mzbfeast.htm

The posters (who were on this list at one time, IIRC) got it from
Fabulous Feasts, one which i do not own and which i've heard is a
questionable source. Does anyone have any idea what actually period
recipe this is based on, if any?

Anahita

<http://www.nmia.com/~ariann/mzbrecipes.htm>

Fried Valencia Oranges

Posted by Brian L. Rygg or Laura Barbee-Rygg (rygbee at montana.com).
Found it in Fabulous Feasts- Medieval Cookery and Ceremony by
Madeleine Pelner Cosman ISBN 0-8076-0832-7. No documentation, but
very tasty.

4 large seedless eating oranges
4 Tbl brown sugar
1/8 tsp nutmeg
l/8 tsp mace
1/4 tsp cinnamon
1 C flour
1 1/2 tsp baking powder
1/4 tsp salt
3 Tbl brown sugar
1 C oil for sauteing
1 raw egg
1/2 scant C milk

Garnish
4 Tbl mustard
4 Tbl brown sugar

Carefully peel the Oranges and Separate the sections. Strew on mixed
sugar, nutmeg, mace, and cinnamon. Prepare a thick batter by uniting
the flour, baking powder, salt, and brown sugar. Blend 2 Tbl of
oil, the egg, well beaten, and the milk. Thoroughly stir this liquid
into the dry mixture. If the batter is thin, add a scant amount more
of flour. If it is too thick to evenly coat the orange sections, then
dilute with more milk. Chill batter for 1-1/2 hours. Heat the
remaining oil in a heavy skillet until hot, not smoking. Dip orange
sections in batter to coat thoroughly. Drop into hot oil and fry
until nicely browned. Serve warm with mustard and brown sugar in
Separate spice dishes.


Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:29:49 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fried Oranges
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Cosman titles the recipe Valencye.

Historically, this is very suspect.  Cosman is presumably working primarily
from 15th Century sources, but chasing down actual sources can be very
tricky.  Cosman also is notorious for not specifying original source and her
recipes are modern adaptations rather than careful recreations (please note
the very modern baking powder in the recipe).

This is an orange fritter recipe of the sort I would expect from the 15th
Century Italian cooks, but I don't recall seeing anything similar (and I'm
researching a 15th Century Italian feast at present).  Perhaps someone else
has come across it in an original source.

Another strike against the recipe is that it calls for Valencia oranges.
The first sweet oranges were introduced into Europe by the Portuguese in the
early 16th Century (a couple of <suspect> sources date the introduction in
1529).

Bear


Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:48:20 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re:sweet oranges
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

With regard to the questions posed by Anahita as regards
oranges and the recipe in Fabulous feasts,  my notes show that
there was a sweet orange available in Europe prior to 1500.
Louis XI of France sent for "sweet oranges" during his reign
and Platina also mentions that some oranges are tart and some sweet.
No idea as to where Cosman got her original idea for the recipe.
There was a later introduction of another larger sweeter, orange by the
Portuguese in the 1520's too as Bear notes.

Johnnae


Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:32:21 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re:sweet oranges
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Platina is 1475 and Louis XI reigned 1461-1483, so that places some kind of
sweet orange in Europe during the latter half of the 15th Century.  But no
idea of whether these were hybrids, imports or some varietal that had been
around for a while.

IIRC, there was an orange market in Nice in the early 1400's, which might
tie in nicely to sweet varietals.

Sweet oranges being mentioned in European literature before sweet oranges
are supposed to have arrived.  Obviously there is an error in the arrival
date commonly quoted.  What a delicious conundrum!  And then there is the
problem of the derivation of the Valencye recipe.  This could be fun.

Bear


Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:46:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: sweet oranges
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Perhaps this will help?
http://www.aquapulse.net/knowledge/orange

It does mention that sweet oranges were depicted on a mausoleum erected 
by Constantine.

Gianotta


Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:59:03 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: sweet oranges
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

AFAIK, you can't tell, although it might be possible for a botanist to make
some kind of determination if there are also accurate illustrations of leaf
and flower.

IIRC, this site has a good references, but they are all modern texts.  Since
the authors of the site appear to be depending on others to do their basic
research, it may be that they are confusing fact and speculation.  In
general, the work looks good, but I do want to chase some of the information
back to primary sources.

Some other questions I have are: where is this mausoleum, when was it built,
what is its history, and how can we be certain that the drawing of the
orange is comtemporary to the construction?

Bear

> But how on earth would we know that they were sweet oranges, instead of
> bitter ones?
>
> Cynara
>
>> http://www.aquapulse.net/knowledge/orange
>>
>> It does mention that sweet oranges were depicted on a mausoleum 
>> erected by Constantine.
>>
>> Gianotta


Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:07:58 -0400
From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] To the King's Taste (was Pennsic Potluck,
	revisited)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Aug 28, 2004, at 9:43 AM, Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:
> You don't see much citrus in English cooking until the late
> 16th century.

This statement kind of caught me off guard, so I had to do some
checking.

While oranges don't show up in English cooking texts until the late
16th century, they do show up in French texts in the late 14th century
(see below).  I'd be surprised if it took 200 years for oranges to make
their way across the English channel.  More likely, the oranges were
known, but didn't show up in kitchens often enough to override the
natural tendency towards plagiarism of early English cookery book
authors.

Le Menagier de Paris (Hinson, trans.) ca. 1392

9 recipes, see link -
http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi-bin/search.pl?term=oranges&file=lmdp
(While this doesn't seem like a lot, it should be noted that there are
only 15 recipes in this book that reference cabbage)

-=-

Du Fait de Cuisine (Elizabeth Cook, trans.) ca. 1420
3 recipes

"10. For a lofty entremet, that is a castle, [...] One should take note
of the sauces of the said pike with which it should be eaten, that is:
the fried with oranges, the boiled with a good green sauce which should
be made sour with a little vinegar, and the roast of the said pike
should be eaten with green verjuice made of sorrel. [....]"

"For marine fish: for the turbot should be given green sauce, salmon
with cameline, ray with garlic cameline which is made with almonds and
with its liver; sea-crayfish with vinegar, sturgeons with parsley,
onions, and vinegar, fried sardines with mustard, fried sole with
sorrel verjuice and oranges, eels roasted on the grill with verjuice,
anchovies with parsley, onions, and vinegar and powder on top."

"In the year of grace 1400 Aymé, first duke of Savoy, [...] and the
pikes should be eaten with the boiled with green sauce, the fried and
the roasted with green verjuice or with oranges."

-=-

The Vivendier (Scully, trans) ca. 1450
one recipe

"To cook a Fish in Three Ways and Styles, that is, boiled, roasted and
fried.  [...]  Serve it as an entrements, the boiled part with Green
Sauce, the roasted with orange juice and the fried with Cameline."

- Doc
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
   Edouard Halidai  (Daniel Myers)
   http://www.medievalcookery.com/


Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:34:48 -0500
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] bottled sour orange juice
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

FYI, we discussed this several times at different venues at Pennsic.
Yes, my local Price Rite carries bottles of bitter orange juice (no
other additives except preservatives). The brand is Badia, the label is
'NARANJA AGRIA' and it's 20 oz. (1.99 where I am). Apparently Badia also
markets it in 1 gallon containers... :)
--  
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net  


Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:13:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Noty or Notye
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

--- Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Not a linguistic flame (not a flame, actually), but a culinary comment.
> I would be *very* surprised to see lemon juice in a recipe written in
> Middle English.  Even in the Mediterranean corpus, there's very little
> use of lemon until late period.

There is a mosaic in Pompeii which depicts a lemon.
There are lemon-shaped earrings found in the Indus Valley dating back to 2500 BC
Crusaders returning to Europe from Palestine were said to have carried  
lemons back with them.

"The first clear literary evidence of the lemon tree in any language dates from the early tenth-century Arabic work by Qustus al-Rumi in his book on farming. At  
the end of the twelfth century, Ibn Jami’, the personal physician to the great Muslim leader Saladin, wrote a treatise on the lemon, after which it is mentioned with greater frequency in the Mediterranean"

The above citation is from an online article written by Cliford A Wright.
http://www.cliffordawright.com/history/lemonade.html

I have also heard that the Greeks may well have been cultivating lemons  
within our early period of interest.

William de Grandfort


Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 20:09:27 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Noty or Notye
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Also sprach Chris Stanifer:
> I have also heard that the Greeks may well have been cutivating
> lemons within our early period of interest.

Yes, and I believe they also appear in several of the Tacuinum
Sanitatis manuscripts. The question is, what would the English be
doing with them, and if anything, how did they get them?

Adamantius-- 


Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 22:15:20 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]Leons not  Noty or Notye
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Having made citrus fruits sort of a study of mine (the book is over
200 plus pages now and will probably be over 300 in its next version)
I can post some of my findings---
"Other citrus fruits that might be candied include lemons or Citrus
limon of both the thick and thin skinned varieties. They reached China
by 1900 BC The Chinese called them limung and medieval and Renaissance
recipes echo that name when they speak about limons and limao.
Confusingly many times when a later recipe calls for citron, the cook
may have meant lemons. OED includes this quotation: 1555 EdenDecades W.
Ind. ii. ix. (Arb.) 131 “The kynde of citrons which are commonly cauled
limones.” Page 45.

"Thomas Dawson in The Good Huswife’s Jewell includes a list of “The
Names Of All things necessary for a banquet.” Among the items Dawson
included were “Orenges, Lemons, and Sweete Orenges”. ...Gervase Markham
in The English Housewife writes about the ‘preserves, conserves, candies
and pastes consisted the whole art of banqueting dishes.’ In addition to
the Citrus fruits that were so treated in preserves ad conserves,
Markham mentioned that you might serve “oranges and lemons sliced, and
then wafers.” The professional cook Robert May in The Accomplisht Cook
seems to freely decorate many of his made dishes with thinly sliced
oranges and lemons. " Page 65

You start seeing lemon recipes in English cookbooks in numbers
in the later 16th century. Using Doc's handy search engine, you
get lots of hits for A NEVV BOOKE of Cookerie which is the John Murrell
edition from the 17th century.
http://www.medievalcookery.om/search.shtm

Johnnae llyn Lewis, authoress


Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:38:23 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Lemons was  Noty or Notye
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

The Indus site with the lemon shaped earring is Mohenjo-Daro.

Aristophanes, Virgil, Theophrastus, Pliny and Antiphanes have presumably
written about lemons (or possibly citrons; one needs to remember that
Linnaeus considered lemons to be a variety of citron and their establishment
as a separate species is fairly recent) which pushes western knowledge of
the fruit back to the 3rd or 4th Century BCE.  Whether or not these writers
had direct contact with the fruit is another question, but the probability
that they encountered the fruit personally is greater after Alexander's
conquests in northern India around 325 BCE.

I've found some references to lemons being grown in Libya and imported into
Rome during Trajan's reign, but I have yet to find the source for that
statement.

Just for fun, here's a piece discussing the origin and spread of citrus
fruits with a bit more on the various arguments for and against lemons:
http://lib.ucr.edu/agnic/webber/Vol1/Chapter1.htm

Bear


Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 19:30:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Here are a few Middle English quotes which contain the poor, misunderstood lemon...

Early English versions of the Gesta Romanorum / edited by Sidney J.H. Herrtage
[ XL. ]SELESTINUS A WYSE EMPEROURE. (THE "BOND" STORY IN THE "MERCHANT  
O VENICE.")Harl. MS. 7333.

[Story.]

yenst him, she kytte of al the longe her of hir hede, and cladde hir in  
precious clothing like to
a man; and yede to the palys þere as hir lemon was to be demyd, and  
saluyd þe Iustice; and al they
trowid þat she ha be a knite. And þe Iuge Enquerid


Treatises of fistula in ano : haemorrhoids, and clysters / by John  
Arderne
NOTES.

te and unripe, so they want colour. The stone laid whole to the  
forehead stays the bleeding at the
nose. You may dissolve it in juic of Lemons or Spirit of Vinegar and  
so use it; drunk in wine it
helps against the stinging of scorpions. You may a


John Arderne was an English surgeon who lived during the 1300's in  England, and his prescription of lemons proves, at the very least, hat they were known in medicinal circles in England, even if they do not appear in Middle English cookery books.

William de Grandfort


Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:51:58 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject:Re: [Sca-cooks] Noty or Notye
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> --- lilinah at earthlink.net wrte:
>> There is a big difference between showing that
>> lemons were used in England in the period in
>> which Middle English was spoken and written and
>> showing that lemons existed in other times and places...
>
> True enough.  I'm still trying o track down ship manifests and monastic
> records of the time, just
> to see if I can find a reference to the lemon or citron in Europe
> (England).  Another source which
> I haven't hit on yet is information on estate orchards, or even Royal
> orchards of the time.  This
> may seem like a case of 'backwards documentation', but it is more a
> curious examination to see if
> lemons were used with any regularity during the time in question.  The
> lack of documentation in
> recipes of the time is not an indication that the lemon was not widely
> used.  Merely that it was
> not used in the written recipes we have available.
>
> William de Grandfort

Looking in the OED, the earliest earliest English reference to a lemon is
from 1400 while the citron show up in 1530.  This isn't too surprising when
one considers that "lemon" derives from Iberian origins (and England's
Spanish ties) while citron was the more common form in other parts of
Europe.  The common terms were often used interchangably because lemons and
citron were considered to be the same species.

I wouldn't worry about monastic records or orchard logs.  Lemon trees won't
grow natively much farther north than Central Italy.  You need to look at
green houses and very sophisticated gardens if you want to find lemon trees
in England.  The ship manifests are a good idea and don't forget customs
records, one of the earliest references to lemons show up in customs records
from around 1420-21.

That lemon is not widely documented in English recipes before the 16th
Century, suggests that the lemon may not have been relatively common until
then.  It is an indication that lemon was not widely used, it is not
absolute proof of the fact.  That general documentation in England begins in
1400, it is highly likely that lemons were not in use in England much before
beginning of the 15th Century, which logically suggests lemons came into use
during a two hundred year period between 1400 and 1600.  Lemons can not be
grown in England other than n green houses and green houses of the time
were too costly to support commercial cultivation, which means the fruit was
imported and was probably expensive, limiting use to the wealthier segments
of society.  English sea trade becomes a major factor n the 16th Century,
but the great thrust of overseas trade begins in 1555 with the Muscovy
Company.  Considering the historical framework, it is very likely lemons
would only become inexpensive enough for general use during the last half of
the 16th Century.  Of course, this is all speculation.

To test this, I would look for market records of English fruit markets.
Curiously, one of the people involved with the Tudor banana is preparing a
study of London fruit markets.  I might check with her about the references
she is using.  I would also scour Hakluyt's Principle Navigations,
Explorations and Discoveries of the English Nation for references to lemons.

I will agree that lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, but the quantity
and quality of available references is suggestive about probability.

Bear


Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:15:54 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English
To: "Cookswithin the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Here are a few Middle English quotes which contain the poor,  
> misnderstood lemon...
>
> Early English versions of the Gesta Romanorum / edited by Sidney J.H.
> Herrtage
> [ XL. ]SELESTINUS A WYSE EMPEROURE. (THE "BOND" STORY IN THE "MERCHANT OF
> VENICE.")Harl. MS. 7333.
>
> [Story.]
>
> yenst him, she kytte of a the longe her of hir hede, and cladde hir in
> precious clothing like to
> a man; and yede to the palys þere as hir lemon was to be demyd, and saluyd
> þe Iustice; and al they
> trowid þat she had be a knite. And þe Iuge Enquerid

I think the lemon in this writing is actually leman, a(n illicit) lover.

> Treatises of fistula in ano : haemorrhoids, and clysters / by John  
> Arderne
> NOTES.
>
> te and unripe, so they want colour. The stone laid whole to the forehead
> stays the bleeding at the
> nose. You may dissolve it in juice of Lemons or Spirit of Vinegar and so
> use it; drunk in wine it
> helps against the stinging of scorpions. You may a
>
> John Arderne was an English surgeon who lived during the 1300's in
> England, and his prescription
> of lemons proves, at the very least, that they were known in medicinal
> circles in England, even if
> they do not appear in Middle English cookery books.
>
> William de Grandfort

Now this is more like it, however, the claims being made triggered a vague
memory of some of the claims made about vinegar and citrons in Pliny.  I
don't think this is cribbed from Pliny, but I think you better check out
Dioscorides De Materia Medica.  I have a feeling the author is copying from
some of the great texts of the field and doesn't have first hand knowledge
of the subject.

Bear


Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 00:52:42 -0500
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Chris Stanifer wrote:
> Here are a few Middle English quotes which contain the poor,  
> misunderstood lemon...
>
> Early English versions of the Gesa Romanorum / edited by Sidney J.H.  
> Herrtage

[snip]

> yenst him, she kytte of al the longe her of hir hede, and cladde hir  
> in precious clothing like to a man; and yede to the palys þere as hir  
> lemon was to be demyd, and saluyd þe Iustic; and al they trowid þat  
> she had be a knite. And þe Iuge Enquerid

This is indeed a misunderstood lemon.  The word here is an alternate
spelling of "leman", a Middle English term for a lover.

> Treatises of fistula in ano : haemorrhoids, and clystrs / by John  
> Arderne
> NOTES.
>
> te and unripe, so they want colour. The stone laid whole to the  
> forehead stays the bleeding at the nose. You may dissolve it in juice  
> of Lemons or Spirit of Vinegar and so use it; drunk in wine it helps  
> against the stinging of scorpions. You may a
>
> John Arderne was an English surgeon who lived during the 1300's in  
> England, and his prescription of lemons proves, at the very least,  
> that they were known in medicinal circles in England, even if the do  
> not appear in Middle English cookery books.

The quote above is not from the text of "fistula in ano", but from the
footnotes of the 1910 EETS edition.  In the text, Arderne mentions the
use of sapphire, red coral and ruby.  The footnote explains the
historical beliefs about these stones.  The bit about sapphires is in
quotes.  I suspect it's from Salmon's 1678 "The New London Dispensory",
which is much cited in other footnotes.  In any case, the English in the
footnote quote is much more modern than the Middle English of the main  
text:

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx? 
type=HTML&rgn=DIV2&byte=15278198
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx? 
type=HTML&rgn=DIV1&byte=15381097#n66.3

No one is questioning that lemons were known in medicinal circles in
medieval England  (Whether they were used in English medicine is another
question.).

> William de Grandfort
-- 
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom


Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 23:27:41 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]Lemons and neither  Noty nor Notye
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

  As for those fabled ship's records C. Anne Wilson notes
that in 1289 Queen Eleanor (who was a princess from Castile)
received 15 lemons and  7 oranges. Upon her deathbed they managed
to procure her an additional 39 lemons for an outstandingly high price.
That's the only mention of lemons that I have found. One has to remember
that they didn't need lemons at that time for sour juice. For that they used
the oranges of the period which were the sour or bitter oranges.
Those we have shipping records for. Both Hammond and Wilson note those.

Johnnae llyn Lewis


Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 10:53:00 -0500
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English
To: Cookswithin the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Terry Decker wrote:
> The Viander (1250-1395, depending on the particular manuscripts) does
> not mention lemons.  Neither does Menagier (1393) or Du fait de
> cuisine (1420). The Liber cure cocurum (1st half of the 14th Century)
> doesn't mention them and I don't remember the Two Fifteenth Century
> Cookbooks (1430 and 1450) having lemons in any recipe.

[snip

They don't.  The "Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery-Books" are part of the
Middle English database that William searched.  No mention of lemons.

> The Anonimo Veneziana (sic?) (14th Century) does mention them as do
> Martino (15th) and De Nola (16th).

The "Libre de Sent Sovi" (14th c. Catalan) does also.

> Keukenboek (16th century Dutch) makes no mention of lemons.  In
> England, A.W. A Book of Cookrye (1591) has recipes as does A Closet
> for Ladies and Gentlewomen (1608, which is IIRC a screw citation fr
> Plat).
>
> Curiously, Markham's The English Housewife makes no mention of lemons
> that I can find.
>
> What these cookbooks suggest is that lemons were not used much in
> Northern Europe before the 16th Century and that they were introduced
> into Meiterranean cooking in the 14th Century and popularized in the
> 15th and 16th Centuries.  The cooks who created these recipes would
> certainly have used lemons if they were available.  The fact that they
> are not mentioned leads one to believe that lemons were not available.

[snip]

> Bear.
-- 
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom


Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:46:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Katja Olova <katjaorlova at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Lemons
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

> The Viander (1250-1395, depending on the particular> manuscripts) does not 
> mention lemons.

<snip list of period cookbooks>

I'm doing a Spanish feast next weekend (with extreme
gratitude to Vincent and Brighid for their
translations).

Having just looked at a lot of Spanish recipes, I'd
like to note that lemons are mentioned in both the
Libre de Sent Sovi (Di limonia di polli) and Libro de
Cozina (Limonada). The former is 14th Century, I
think, and the latter is 1529.

I have no idea how common or popular they were in
Spain at this time, but since you were listing
cookbooks that include or don't include the fruit, I
thought folks would like to know.

regards, Katja


Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:22:35 -0500
From: Bill Fisher <liamfisher at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Moving later  and out of the middle english period the 1682 edition of
Rabisha's _The Whole Body Of Cookery Dissected_  does have
lemon recipes in it.

"To pickle Lemmon and Orange Pill"

"To Preserve Oranges and Lemons"  pg 312

"To make syrup of lemons" pg 325

"To Make Paster of Oranges and Lemons" pg 322

Those are just the recipes that have lemon in the title.

But from looking at the other recipes they are using verjuis, vinegar and citrons in the daily cooking, as well as oranges and pears.  I was looking for a sample recipe using a lemon as an ingredient outside of candying and preserves, but I do not see any at first glance.  I'm not saying there are none, but I
haven't totally read through this book yet.

But from what I am seeing is, this is the time that lemons are starting to be
used in English cuisine, and only just starting to be.

I brought this book up because this text in of itself is a post Interregnum work
that was supposed to exemplify how the nobles ate in the times before Cromwell
had his fun with English society.  If lemons had been a large part of the society's cuisine, Rabisha would have dug that up along with the other recipes
in this book as he strove to bring back those days.  I don't think Cromwell would have driven lemons out of England with the royalty.

Cadoc


Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:26:43 -0700
From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Lemons:
1604 is later than the 1100 to 1500 first mentioned, but provides
a date when lemons were certainly in use in cooking in Belgium
(which is as far north as southern England):

"Ouverture de Cuisine", published in what is today Belgium in 1604,
and containing recipes current during the second half of the 1500s,
uses "citron" and "limon".  Translating the latter poses some
problems, and my reading is not definitive.  The word "limon"
usually occurs as "limon sale" [w. acute accent].  "Sale" means
salted (or in some contexts sour).  Rey et al define "limon" as
a sour lemon with a thin skin (with earliest citation in French
from about 1314).

In Ouverture 9 recipes call for fresh lemon, 3 recipes call for
fresh sour lemon, and 17 recipes call for salted sour lemon.

It might be relevant that in 1604 Belgium was occupied by the
Spanish, who as we have seen used lemons from an early date

I haven't looked extremely hard, but that's the earliest use
from northern Europe that I've found in any of my sources.

Scurvy was also mentioned:
The English East India Company is mentioned as gathering oranges
and lemons from Madagascar in 1601 which they turned into juice
specifically for use against scurvy.

Thorvald


Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 14:02:38 -0800
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

This is NOT proof of the use of lemons (or indeed any citrus fruit) _IN
CUISINE_ in England, but is of interest in a literary sense.

The word 'citryn' appears in the Canterbury Tales, as the description of a
yellow color.

It is in the description of Arcite, in the Knight's Tale. Lines  
2165-2167 say:

"His crispe heer lyk ringes was yronne,
And that was yelow, and glytered as the sonne.
His nose was heigh, his eyen bright citryn,"

All of my glosses have 'citryn' as 'lemon colored', but there is also the
possibility that a green-yellow or yellow-green is indicated- after all-
humans do not generally have yellow eyes, but some do have green eyes.

The word 'lemon' in any spelling does not appear in Chaucer's works.

'Lainie


Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:53:37 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Also sprach Phlip:
> Be interested here, to see which came first, the color or the fruit?  Was the
> fruit named for the color, or vice versa? Same with oranges- can anagram
> orange, but can't rhyme it, unless I'm being silly in a limerick ;-)  But,
> where do the words derive from? Any of you folks with access to an OED have
> a clue?

Well, what does naranj (or whatever it is in the Arabic whence it's
supposed to come) mean? Does it refer to the color?

On a related note, my lady wife reminds me that Chaucer may be
referring to the color of the semi-precious stone, citrine, which
was, she says, a favorite of the Romans, and well-known in period
Europe.

Adamantius, who wears Roman jewelry when Ceandra makes the stuff, but
otherwise is no authority


Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 19:47:25 -0600
From: "margaret" <m.p.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Be interested here, to see which came first, the color or the fruit?  Was the
> fruit named for the color, or vice versa? Same with oranges- can anagram
> orange, but can't rhyme it, unless I'm being silly in a limerick ;-)  But,
> where do the words derive from? Any of you folks with access to an OED have
> a clue?
>
> Saint Phlip,
> CoD

The fruit.  Citrine derives from the Latin "citrus" which is the citron
tree.  Orange derives from the Persian "narang" (possibly derived from
Sanskrit), a reference to the orange tree.

Bear


Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:36:25 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Scurvy was also mentioned:
> The English East India Company is mentioned as gathering oranges
> and lemons from Madagascar in 1601 which they turned into juice
> specifically for use against scurvy.
>
> Thorvald

This is coincident with the date and location for James Lancaster (of the
East India Company) dosing his crew with citrus juice.  My information says
that was done just for his crew.  This raises the question of whether the
cure was generalized for the whole of the East India Company or whether your
source generalized and isolated incident.

Bear


Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:31:04 -0700
From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

At 20:36 -0600 2005-02-07, Terry Decker wrote:
>  This is coincident with the date and location for James Lancaster
> (of the East India Company) dosing his crew with citrus juice.  My
> information says that was done just for his crew.  This raises the
> question of whether the cure was generalized for the whole of the
> East India Company or whether your source generalized and isolated
> incident.
>
>  Bear

Same voyage.  Captain Lancaster, though in overall command of the
four ships, used the juices for his own crew only, which suggests
that it was not Company policy at the time of his voyage.  It is
suggested that he was experimenting (in the event, at the expense
of the crews of the other three ships).

Thorvald


Date: Mon,  7 Feb 2005 22:27:44 -0500
From: "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1 at iconn.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons as antiscorbutics
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

John Smith in his 1626 book on ships and sailing, A Sea Grammar, has the 
following line in his instructions regarding the proper victualling of 
a ship for a voyage to sea:

"A Commander at Sea should doe well to thinke the contrary, and provide 
for himselfe and company in like manner; also seriously to consider 
what will bee his charge to furnish himselfe at Sea with bedding, 
linnen, armes, and apparrell, how to keepe his table aboord, and hi 
expences on shore, and provide his petty Tally, which is a competent 
proportion according to your number of these particulars following.
  Fine wheat flower close and well packed, Rice, Currands, Sugar, 
Prunes, Cynamon, Ginger, Pepper, Cloves, greene inger, Oyle, Butter, 
Holland cheese, or old Cheese, Wine vineger, Canarie sacke, Aqua vitæ, 
the best Wines, the best waters, the juyce of Limons for the scurvy, 
white Bisket, Oatmeale, gammons of Bacon, dried Neats tongues, Beefe 
packed up in vineger,Legs of Mutton minced and stewed, and close 
packed up, with tried sewet or butter in earthen pots. "

In 1610 the Governor of Jamestown Lord la Ware took scurvy while 
travelling to Jamestown, and he was forced for his health to repair to 
"the western isles" by which I think he means the Bahamas:
"In these extremities I resolved to consult with my friends, who 
finding nature spent in me, and my body almost consumed, my paines 
likewise daily increasing, gave me advice to preferre a hopefull 
recoverie, bfore an assured ruine, which must necessarily have ensued, 
had I lived but twentie daies longer in Virginia, wanting at that 
instant both food and Physicke, fit to remedie such extraordinary 
diseases; wherefore I shipped my selfe with Doctor Bohun and aptaine 
Argall, for Mevis in the West Indies, but being crossed with Southerly 
winds, I was forced to shape my course for the Westerne Iles, where I 
found helpe for my health, and my sicknesse asswaged, by the meanes of 
fresh dyet, especially Oranges nd Limons, and undoubted remedie for 
that disease: then I intended to have returned backe againe to 
Virginia, but I was advised not to hazard my selfe, before I had 
perfectly recovered my strength: so I came for England; in which 
accident, I doubt notbut men of judgement w!
  ill imagine, there would more prejudice have happened by my death 
there, than I hope can doe by my returne."

So as far as lemons, and oranges, go, here appears to have been a 
plantations in the American tropics long established, by this time and 
at least a rudmentary awareness of the efficacy of citrus as an 
antiscorbutic.

Capt Elias
-Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas


Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:42:07 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons in Middle English
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

According to Mark Anderson, it was an accidental controlled experiment.
http://www.riparia.org/scurvy_hx.htm

I did a little further checking and found that this was the first voyage of
the East India company fleet.  Lancaster's logs from the voyage have
disappeared.  Further information of the voyage can be found in Samuel
Purchas' Hakluytus post-hummus, or Purchas his Pilgrims, 1625 and Sir
Clements Markham's
  The Voyages of Sir James Lancaster, Hakluyt Society, 1877.  The earlier
voyage of James Lancaster appears in Hakluyt's Voyages, but is not included
in the abridged edition I have.

Anderson's article is interesting because it covers some of the
considerations of scurvy and the citrus treatment prior to Lind.

Bear


Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:04:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Scurvy in period (slightly OT)
To: gedney1 at iconn.net, Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

--- Jeff Gedney <gedney1 at iconn.net> wrote:
> for what it's worth, the complete etext of Richard Hakluyt's "The 
> PRINCIPAL NAVIGATIONS VOYAGES
> TRAFFIQUES & DISCOVERIES of the ENGLISH NATION Made by Sea or Overland 
> to the Remote & Farthest
> Distant Quarters of the Earth at any time within the compasse of these 
> 1600 Yeares"

Lemons are mentioned twice in this book, for what it's worth (not much, 
since they aren't mentioned in connection with England).   :)

WdG


Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 07:22:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Cat ." <tgrcat2001 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 28, Issue 28
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Greetings Stefan,

Yes, the recipe is in Rumpolt (Ein New Kochbuch)
http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_salad1.htm

its #27.  24, 25 and 37 are also pretty and
refreshing.

Enjoy!
In Service
Gwen Cat


>>> Urtatim (formerly Anahita)
>> I hope someone does the thin sliced lemons with sugar!
>> Yum! And refreshing.
>
> Sounds like it could be very nice tasting, but is there any evidence
> for this being a period dish?
>
> I know we've talked about preserved lemons before, but I don't
> remember sugared lemons.
>
> Stefan
> --------
> THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad
> Kingdom of Ansteorra
>     Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas


Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 12:43:25 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: [Sca-cooks   Lemons with sugar
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Also in Dawson which is on the web
The Good Housewife's Jewell by Thomas Dawson 1596 <../00.htm>

To make a Sallet of Lemmons

Cut out slices of the peele of the Lemmons long waies, a quarter of an
inche one peece from an other, and then slice the Lemmon very thinne and
lay him in a dish crosse, and the peeles about the Lemmons, and scrape a
good deale of suger upon them, and so serve them.

http://www.harvestfields.ca/CookBooks/003/07/01/107.htm

Johnnae

Cat . wrote: Greetings Stefan,

> Yes, the recipe is in Rumpolt (Ein New Kochbuch)
> http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_salad1.htm
> its #27.  24, 25 and 37 are also pretty and
> refreshing.
>
>> I know we've talked about preserved lemons before, but I don't
>> remember sugared lemons. Stefan


Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:18:03 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Lemon Relish, was Silver Spoon - Mists Fall
	Coronet
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Stefan wrote:
> Gunthar suggested:
>> I hope someone does the thin sliced lemons with sugar!
>> Yum! And refreshing.
>
> Sounds like it could be very nice tasting, but is there any evidence
> for this being a period dish?

I think Gunthar is thinking of something else, but i served a German
recipe for chopped lemons tossed with sugar and pomegranate seeds at
the mostly German Boar Hunt, my second feast, 2001. Recipe on my website:
http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/2001_Feasts/2001-Boar_Hunt/ 
2001-0menu.html

Lemon and pomegranate relish
Marx Rumpolt, Ein New Kochbuch, 1581
37. Lemon chopped with sugar and sprinkled with pomegranate seeds.

My Recipe:
makes 10 small bowls

10 medium lemons
5 pomegranates
plenty of granulated sugar

1. Peel pomegranates, separating seeds into a large bowl, removing
all pith. Pomegranates contain tannin and will stain clothes and
hands. Be sure to wear an apron - and latex/rubber gloves if you wish.
2. Sprinkle pomegranate seeds with sugar.
3. Chop lemons up completely and finely, removing only the seeds.
4. Mix with pomegranate seeds.
5. Sprinkle with lots sugar. Let stand. Add more sugar as necessary.
6. Serve in small dishes.

There wasn't a scrap left and people were begging for more.
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 02:31:00 -0700
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] the lemon controversy!
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

While looking for stuff on grene grapes, I found the cache of messages
about the lemon question that came up months ago! So here is the word on
lemons from a bunch of professors who were avoiding grading  
papers... :-)

______
Here's the quotation display for the entry 'limon.' I hope the
formatting works out.

(1420-21) in Gras Eng.Cust.Syst.  514:  i cista iiic
lymonz.  ?a1425(c1400) Mandev.(1) (Tit C.16)   131/35:  For the
vermyn þat is withjnne, þei anoynte here armes & here thyes &
legges with an oynement made of a þing þat is clept Lymons, þat is,
a manere of fruyt lych smale pesen [F lymons, cest vn manere de
fruit come pesches petites].  ?a1425 Mandev.(2) (Eg 1982)
84/15:  Ane oynement made of þe iuys of a fruyte þat þai call
lymons.  ?a1425 *Chauliac(1) (NY 12)   27a/a:  Pomegranates,
orenges, lymonez [L limones], & al acetous ar for hym.  ?c1425
*Chauliac(2) (Paris angl.25)   156a/b:  Many men putte þerto in
somer þe Iuse of lymons or of orenges.  ?1435(1432) Lydg. Hen.VI
Entry (Jul B.2)   353:  Ther were eke treen with leves ffressh off
hewe..ffulle off ffruytes lade..Orenges, almondis, and the
pome-gernade, Lymons, dates, theire colours ffressh and glade.

the abbreviated titles are, in order of appearance:
-N. S. B. Gras, The Early English Customs System, HES 18 (1918).
-Mandeville's Travels, ed. P. Hamelius, EETS 153 (1919; reprint
1987). 1-211.
-The Buke of John Maundeuill, ed. G. F. Warner, RC 119 (1889). upper
pp.1-156.
-Translation of Guy de Chauliac's Grande Chirurgie: Microfilm print
of New York Academy of Medicine MS 12; in poss. of MED.
-The Cyrurgie of Guy de Chauliac, ed. M. S. Ogden, EETS 265 (1971).
-Lydgate on HenVI's entry into London.  The Minor Poems of John
Lydgate, ed. H. N. MacCracken, vol. 2, EETS 192 (1934; reprint
1961). 630-48
_______
Browsing the MED entries that mention "orange," "lemon," or "citrus" in
the definition, I find at least a few that seem to
suggest the actual presence (as opposed to theoretical knowledge) of
citrus fruit in England. The bulk of the quotations seem to point to
medicinal, rather than culinary, use. But here are four samples (the
Paston quote is curious, I think):

(1420-21) in Gras Eng.Cust.Syst.  514:  i cista iiic lymonz.
(1470) Paston   1.554:  Dame Elyzabet Calthorp is a fayir lady and
    longyth for orangys, thow she be not wyth chyld
a1525(?1457) Cov.Leet Bk.  300:  The Meyre..send vnto her..a grete
    panyer full of Pescodes and another panyer full of pipyns
    and Orynges.
?c1425 *Chauliac(2) (Paris angl.25)   118a/b:  With þe Iuse of
      citrines [F citron; L citri].

See limon (n.(1)), citrine (n.), and orange (n.), among others.
Probably equal or better results might be had from searching for
the Latin and French terms, perhaps especially in commercial
contexts, as suggested by the quot. from Gras.
_______
I assume, Paul, that the Paston quote refers to the desire for  
unusual/out
of season foods or food combinations (e.g., pickles and ice cream)
experienced in pregnancy (as in Mary's desire for cherries in  
December in
the Cherry Tree Carol).
_______
Here's the earliest OED entry (for whatever that may be worth):

>   c1400 MANDEVILLE (Roxb.) xxi. 98 {Th}ai enoynt {th}am..with {th}e  
> ius of

{th}e fruyt {th}at es called lymons.

and the MED:

limon (n.(1))

      [OF]

The fruit of the lemon tree (Citrus limon).

      (1420-21) in Gras Eng.Cust.Syst.  514:  i cista iiic lymonz.
?a1425(c1400) Mandev.(1) (Tit C.16)   131/35:  For the vermyn þat is
withjnne, þei anoynte here armes & here thyes & legges with an oynement
made of a þing þat is clept Lymons, þat is, a manere of fruyt lych  
smale
pesen [F lymons, cest vn manere de fruit come pesches petites].  ?a1425
Mandev.(2) (Eg 1982)   84/15:  Ane oynement made of þe iuys of a fruyte
þat þai call lymons.  ?a1425 *Chauliac(1) (NY 12)   27a/a:
Pomegranates, orenges, lymonez [L limones], & al acetous ar for hym.
?c1425 *Chauliac(2) (Paris angl.25)   156a/b:  Many men putte þerto in
somer þe Iuse of lymons or of orenges.  ?1435(1432) Lydg. Hen.VI Entry
(Jul B.2)   353:  Ther were eke treen with leves ffressh off
hewe..ffulle off ffruytes lade..Orenges, almondis, and the pome-gernade,
Lymons, dates, theire colours ffressh and glade.
_______

I thought the info was pretty interesting, though it doesn't necessarily
clear up the question of availability and practicality of use in England.
They do seem to be together with warm-climate things like dates and
pomagranates- which we know were used in England. Anyone else have
observations?

'Lainie


Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:14:59 -0400
From: Barbara Benson <voxeight at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemon Relish, was Silver Spoon - Mists Fall
	Coronet
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Stefan wrote:
>> Gunthar suggested:
>>> I hope someone does the thin sliced lemons with sugar!
>>> Yum!
>>> And refreshing.

I would be willing to wager that there is a high probablilty that
Gunthar is referring to the following but Of course, I could be wrong:

Lemmon sallet
From The Good Huswifes Jewell by Thomas Dawson.
Transcribed by Katherine Rowberd.

To make a Sallet of Lemmons - Huswife's Jewel Cut out slices of the
peele of the Lemmons long waies, a quarter of an inche one peece from
an other, and then slice the Lemmon very thinne and lay him in a dish
crosse, and the peeles about the Lemmons, and scrape a good deale of
suger upon them, and so serve them.

I served this salad alongside a fish dish. Was it my fault if some of
it ended up on the salmon?  ;)

Glad Tidings,
Serena da Riva


Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 14:03:47 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]Dawson online was  Lemon Relish,
To: voxeight at gmail.com, Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I posted this recipe back on the 9th under the subject
Lemons with Sugar. This version of Dawson is also up at--

http://www.harvestfields.ca/CookBooks/003/07/01/107.htm

People may want to bookmark it...

Johnnae

Barbara Benson wrote:
>> From The Good Huswifes Jewell by Thomas Dawson.Transcribed by  
>> Katherine Rowberd.
> snipped
> Glad Tidings,
> Serena da Riva


Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 15:26:54 -0800
From: Maggie MacDonald <maggie5 at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Limes
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

At 03:40 AM 12/30/2005,Volker Bach said something like:

> A friend has been kind enough to give me two crates full of limes left over
> from the Mother of All Caipirinha Parties. I've subsequently spent
> considerable time making and freezing juice and making lime cordial, but I'm
> left to wonder what else they are good for. Any pointers appreciated - I have
> time on my hands over new year, and two thirds of one crate are  
> still left over.
>
> Giano

When I received an embarrassing richness of fresh lemons I discovered that I
could simply chuck them whole into the freezer, unpeeled, unbagged.

When you go to use them, the cell walls inside the fruit are already mostly
burst, so they juice easily, and if you work on the peel while its still
mostly frozen, it zests right off really well too.

(The same technique also works for fresh tomatoes, I did the food for one
handfasting, and the tomatoes I froze afterwards lasted longer than the
relationship).

Maggie


Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 14:14:28 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Blood oranges, etc.
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

The problem with all citrus fruit is trying to determine
exactly what is being talked about. From my book
on the topic and the research that went into it---
Sweet oranges, according to a number of sources,
were around in the 15th century. Then about 1520
the Portuguese brought back another even sweeter orange.
Then in the mid-18th century we have the British coming along with
yet another sweet orange.

There's a romatic story that links blood ornages with the Crusades but
at best they seem to be a 17th century mutation from probably Sicily.

One thing is for certain is that there were a number of varieties that were being
grown in the past that we never see in our supermarkets.
In the late 17th-early 18th centuries the Medici commissioned a series
of paintings of what was being grown on their estates. The artist was Bartolomeo  
Bimbi. Taking a look at his paintings of fruits and vegetables is rather  
amazing.
[And I am not talking about the monstrous aspects either
http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/2002/slideshow/slide-163-15.shtm ]

See http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/2002/slideshow/slide-163-14.htm
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/history/lecture39/32.html
or browse the History of Horticulture course for more details. See
lecture 39.
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/history/default.html

Johnnae


Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 14:36:59 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Citrus was Blood oranges, etc.
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

The problem is also typing orange and not ornages.
Also see Saveur March 2006 for an article titled
Citrus Surprises on page 28.
http://www.ripetoyou.com/Main.aspx   --
they offer exotic stuff like citrons during certain seasons.

Johnnae

Johnna Holloway wrote:
> The problem with all citrus fruit is trying to determine
> exactly what is being talked about.


Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 19:50:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] salad of fennel and seville oranges?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

According to the Penguin Companion to Food, p. 667, "During the first centuries of the Christian era the orange began to spread beyond China, as the citron had done earlier.  It reached Japan well before the earliest surviving Japanese literature was written (the 8th Century), but it has always be less important there than fruits of the mandarin type.  It also reached India in early   times; a medical treatise of about A.D. 100, the Charaka Samhita, mentions it for the   first time by what was to become its modern name, 'naranga'. This word is said to be derived from an older Sanskrit term 'narunga'(fruit like elephants).  'Naranga' became 'naranj' in Persian and Arabic, 'narantsion' in late Classical Greek, and 'aurantium' (influenced by 'aurum'(gold)) in Late Latin, from which it is only a short step to the Italian 'arancia' and French and English 'orange'.

"However, the various questions which attend the etymology and the   westward movement of the orange are complicated by the fact that it was the sour orange   which first travelled westwards, with the sweet orange only following about 500   years later. The sour orange was apparently being grown in Sicily at the beginning of the 11th century and around Seville in Spain at the end of the 12th century, no doubt because the Arabs had introduced the fruit in these places.  The sweet orange turns up in the Mediterranean area in the latter part of the 15th century.  However, it is not always easy to know, from the common names then in use, which sort of orange was meant.

"The earliest surviving description of the bitter orange in Europe  was by the 13thcentury writer Albertus Magnus, who called it 'arangus'.  (Another  name was 'bigarade', derived from Arabic.  Bitter orange juice was used as a flavouring.)

"The first mention of the sweet orange in Europe is sometimes said to  be that in the archives of the Italian city of Savona, in 1471.  Probably the seeds  had come through the Genoese trade route, which had extensive connections with the  Near East.  However, Platina (1475 but having prepared his work in manuscript in the  preceding decade)provides a better starting point.  He says that sweet oranges "are almost always suitable for the stomach as a first course and the tart ones may be sweetened with sugar", which shows clearly that he knew both kinds.

"Shortly after the Portuguese explorer Vasco de Gama returned from India after his discovery of the sea route around the Cape of Good Hope, in 1498, the  Portuguese began to grow a superior kind of sweet orange which was said to be a direct import from 'China'-- a vague designation which however came to be adopted as meaning the sweet orange. Thus 'China' oranges which were an expensive delicacy in Britain from  the late 16thcentury on were in fact from Portugal.  And this Portuguese orange spread through Southern Europe.  The modern Greek for orange is still 'portokali'."

Huette


Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 15:26:27 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Oranges was *Sigh* That tomato thing - again
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Did Platina mention oranges?  I remember that Martino used oranges, but when
Platina translated Martino's recipes, he used the word "citron," (citron or
lemon) because Latin doesn't (or didn't) have a word for orange.  As I
remember, Milham translated Platina's usage as lemon.

Bear

> But of course they had oranges. Both a bitter orange,
> followed by at least two versions of sweet oranges prior
> to 1600. (Navel oranges date from Brazil in the 19th century.)
> Normans encountered oranges in the Middle East and quite probably
> in Southern Italy and Sicily. Venetians had them of course.
> Platina mentions them and his book was published in Venice.
> I know because I sat down and did some research on oranges
> and candying oranges. I ended up with 211 pages in the last
> version with a bibliography that runs from pp 192-208.
> So, What sorts of oranges can be found at Food Lion in October?
>
> Johnnae


Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:42:37 -0500
From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Shakespeare mentions in his plays oranges twice, lemons once and limes 
twelve times. In the case of limes this would suggest more than a passing 
acquaintance with the fruit.

Daniel 


Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:12:47 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I found an article online which will be of interest to those who are following this topic.

"The introduction of cultivated citrus to Europe via northern Africa and the Iberian Peninsula"
http://www.springerlink.com/content/b5rh566jwn03431p/fulltext.pdf

FWIW, I don't recall seeing any recipes for limes in the late-period Spanish cookbooks. That doesn't mean that there aren't any; lime trees are mentioned in Herrera's 16th c. agricultural manual.  
-- 
Brighid ni Chiarain
My NEW email is rcarrollmann at gmail.com


Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:33:34 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< I don't own a book on the history of citrus, which i understand can
be difficult to study because of the ease with which all citrus plants 
hybridize/cross-breed with others, since they both self- and 
cross-pollinate, and they develop spontaneous mutations (e.g. the navel 
orange).

So i was mystified when some historical sources mentioned that limes were 
taken to the Caribbean by the Spanish in the early 1500s. Mystified 
because i don't recall coming across any recipes for limes in my reading 
of SCA-period European recipes, although there are enough calling for 
lemons. >>>

Any idea of the precise wording in the original text and whether or not it 
was badly translated?

I suspect the source for the 1500 date may be Oviedo, y Valdez, Gonzales 
Fernandes de, "Historia general y natural de las
Indies, Islas y Tierra-Firma del Mar Oceano"; Toledo, 1526.  No hard 
evidence, but this is a primary source for a lot of the dates concerning 
food stuffs in the New World.

The words lime and lemon both seem to derive from a Persian, so the fruit 
probably moved into the Mediterranean basin no later than 1000 CE.  In my 
opinion there is a high probability that they were there quite some time 
before that.  I also think that they would have been early transplants to 
the Spanish New World.

<<< I wonder if this could be because the name for lemon and lime are very 
similar, both in Arabic and in most European languages, so limes may have 
been substitute in recipes calling for lemons.

Can anyone clarify this mystery and alleviate my confusion?

Does anyone know of any specific recipes calling for limes?
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) >>>

I know of no specific recipes calling for limes.  The confusion about the 
similarity in the names appears to go back to the Persian roots.

Bear 


Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 07:24:13 +0000 (GMT)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--- Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps <dephelps at embarqmail.com> schrieb am So, 6.7.2008:
<<< Shakespeare mentions in his plays oranges twice, lemons once and limes 
twelve times. In the case of limes this would suggest more
than a passing acquaintance with the fruit. >>>

Which opens the question which fruit Shakespeare was talking about. A problem in the German corpus is that loan words from various languages are used to describe citrus fruit. The common 'Limon(i)e/Limun(i)e', e.g., probably actually describes the lemon (modern German Zitrone) rather than the lime (modern German Limone). 


Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 04:08:38 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>,	"Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Volker Bach" <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
--- Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps <dephelps at embarqmail.com> schrieb am So, 
6.7.2008:
<<< Shakespeare mentions in his plays oranges twice, lemons once and limes
twelve times. In the case of limes this would suggest more
than a passing acquaintance with the fruit. >>>

Which opens the question which fruit Shakespeare was talking about. A 
problem in the German corpus is that loan words from various languages are 
used to describe citrus fruit. The common 'Limon(i)e/Limun(i)e', e.g., 
probably actually describes the lemon (modern German Zitrone) rather than 
the lime (modern German Limone).
--------

I've found several references to lime in Shakespeare.  In Richard II, the 
reference appears to be to limestone.  In Henry IV, it's a reference to the 
practice of adding alkaline earth to fortified wine with a similar reference 
in The Merry Wives of Windsor.  Midsummer Night's Dream appears to be a 
reference to either limestone or cement.  In Henry VI are references to 
using bird lime to trap birds and meaning "to cement".  I haven't found 
anything to suggest that Shakespeare was referring to the fruit of C. 
medica, in fact all such references in English appear to begin in the 
mid-17th Century.

Also, lime or lime tree can be a reference to a linden tree, although the 
reference I have found are 17th Century.

I would like to know where the references I haven't found appear in 
Shakespeare, so that I might review the context.

Bear 


Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:23:05 -0700
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I appreciate all the comments, so far. But before we get wrapped up 
in Shakespeare, i'm still hoping someone can find an actual 
food-related mention of limes within SCA-period.

Limes, the fruit, are mentioned in five recipes in the Manuel de Mugeres:

For the thorns of the face
Take a sweet lime and cut the top off, and put a little salt inside 
it and put it to cook over the embers. And it cooks until it is soft. 
And to remove the thorns, you will wet yourself with this juice. And 
put powdered ginger on top.

Remedy to prevent hair growth
The juice of sweet limes beaten with egg whites. Comb the hair, put 
(the mixture) on (the hair), and powder it with powdered ginger. At 
three or four times that this is done it will not return to grow any 
more.

Recipe to make bile for the face
Take four cow galls, and an escudilla of the juice of sweet limes, 
and another escudilla of water of dirty fleece; and four maraveds of 
myrrh, and four (maraveds) of tincal, one of rock solimn; the 
well-washed and crushed root of a white lily, another root of an arum 
lily, a little raw honey. Boil all this in a glass pot until it is 
thick. And take heed that the myrrh, and the tincal, and the solimn 
and the honey will finish after having boiled with the other things. 
And after it has thickened, strain it with a linen cloth. And put it 
in a flask, putting in it four maraveds of camphor.

Tallow for the hands
Two layers of kidney-fat of a goat and one of a sheep, cut into 
pieces. Soak it in water for nine days, stirring the water every day. 
After washing it very well, and the water has been well-purified, 
melt it in a glass pot and throw in a little sweet lime juice. And 
afterwards strain it, and make the loaves in your escudillas on sweet 
lime juice. And after it solidifies, make the loaves into pieces, and 
again melt them in a vessel of silver or glass. And put with it 
scented oil, whichever you like and the quantity you desire, and then 
make your little loaves.

Water to wash the face
Put in a new stew-pot an azumbre of white wine, and another (azumbre) 
of water; and put with it borax, clarimente, camphor, verdigris, rock 
solimn, strong southernwood resin, black chick-peas, sea beans, a 
small mound of white lead, green dragon, opium poppies, gourd seeds, 
bitter almonds: a maraved of each of these things. And grind each of 
these things by itself. And put also a little washed turpentine, and 
six cleaned and quartered sweet limes. And lid the pot very well, and 
put it to the fire. And cook it until it has diminished by three 
fingers' breadth. And then put the lid on it and cover it with cloth 
and leave it to be a good while so that it rests. And then add into 
it four crumbled eggs with the shells and all. And beat it well with 
a stick, and again put the cloth back on and leave it two or three 
days. And when the three days have passed, strain that water and keep 
it in a flask to wash your face with it.

From:
http://larsdatter.com/manual.htm
(there are several items she didn't translate from the 16th C. 
Spanish: rock solimn, clarimente, tincal... anyone have any idea what 
these are in modern English?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know the names for lemon and lime are very similar both in Arabic 
and in most European languages, as others have remarked. And thanks 
for that OED information, Huette, although it only speaks to English 
and not when the fruits were differentiated in other places.

So given the linguistic confusion between lemons and limes, if limes 
were really being grown in Europe, then i wonder if they may have 
been used interchangeably with lemons in cuisine. Does this sound 
likely?

Or were they only used medicinally?

Interestingly (well, to me anyway), that article that Bridgit pointed 
out indicates that not only were bitter oranges (naranias), lemons 
(limones), limes (limas), and citrons (toronias) grown in al-Andalus 
and hence SCA-period Spain, but pummelos, too! as "azamboos", from 
the Arabic zanbu. Not sure how they were being used, though...

Next question: Has anyone substituted limes in SCA-period recipes 
calling for lemons? If so, what has been successful?

I love limeade... maybe next time i make sharbat bi-laimun, i'll use 
limes instead of lemons. BTW the Berkeley Bowl has a citrus that 
looks like a lemon but isn't sour - IIRC, they're called Palestine 
limes... or lemons... i'm now confused :-)
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:56:18 -0700
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Cc: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

No mention of it in Gerard. Only Lemons.
Davidson has some interesting, but not much more than has been  
recounted on the list.
This website recounts Davidson (at least the first part) almost  
verbatim http://www.innvista.com/health/foods/fruits/limes.htm
Has anyone checked the index for PPC or for the Oxford Symposium papers?
Between the chemical, the Linden tree and the citrus fruit this is a  
sour pickle!

Eduardo


Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:30:43 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The translated recipes call for "sweet lime."  IIRC, "sweet lemon" shows up 
in German as a term for lime.  It might be worth looking at the original 
transcription to see what was actually written.

The Palestine lime should be Citrus limettoides AKA the sweet lime or the 
Indian sweet lime.  Interesting pattern, eh wot?

Bear

<clipped>
I know the names for lemon and lime are very similar both in Arabic and in 
most European languages, as others have remarked. And thanks for that OED 
information, Huette, although it only speaks to English and not when the 
fruits were differentiated in other places.

So given the linguistic confusion between lemons and limes, if limes were 
really being grown in Europe, then i wonder if they may have been used 
interchangeably with lemons in cuisine. Does this sound likely?

Or were they only used medicinally?

Interestingly (well, to me anyway), that article that Bridgit pointed out 
indicates that not only were bitter oranges (naranias), lemons (limones), 
limes (limas), and citrons (toronias) grown in al-Andalus and hence 
SCA-period Spain, but pummelos, too! as "azamboos", from the Arabic zanbu. 
Not sure how they were being used, though...

Next question: Has anyone substituted limes in SCA-period recipes calling 
for lemons? If so, what has been successful?

I love limeade... maybe next time i make sharbat bi-laimun, i'll use limes 
instead of lemons. BTW the Berkeley Bowl has a citrus that looks like a 
lemon but isn't sour - IIRC, they're called Palestine limes... or 
lemons... i'm now confused :-)
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)


Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:48:24 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] LIMES --- long
To: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Ok on limes.

In my book on Oranges from 2004, I wrote:

"Limes are not very hardy as regards cold temperatures, and this factor
alone may have kept them limited in cultivation in Europe. Michel de
Nostredame
or Nostradamus in 1555 did provide recipes for preserving limes in his
confectionery work, so they seem to have been known and used in 16th century
France. The recipe in the English translation is titled ?How to preserve
Limes and
bitter oranges while they are small and still green?? It calls for
boiling the fruits in
water and then submerging them in a sugar or honey syrup. Tolkowsky writes
that Moliere?s 17th century Citrons doux or sweet lemons are actually limes.
/Healths Improvement/ which was written by Moffett in the 1590?s and
published
long after his death in 1655 does mention limes, so they were known in
Elizabethan England." page 39.

I just went back and checked Moffett and the passage on lemons and limes
appears on pages
206 and 207.(image 110 on EEBO) and it is clear that he means limes as
he mentions both with relation
to the citrons that were mentioned previously.


I would note also that
Reuther, Webber, and Batchelor's work. The Citrus
Industry. Revised Edition. Riverside, CA: University of California. Division
of Agricultural Sciences, 1967. Volume I: History, World Distribution,
Botany, and Varieties. http://lib.ucr.edu/agnic/webber/ is online.
Webber notes that in Classical times that "A tile floor mosaic found in
a Roman villa near Tusculum (modern Frascati) indicates that soon
thereafter lemons and limes were also known in Italy."

Later he writes *"The Lime
* Apparently the first mention of the lime in literature was made by
Abd-Allatif in the thirteenth century. Gallesio (1811, p. 33) stated
that his "balm lemon of smooth skin the size of a pigeon's egg" was
apparently identical with the species of lime of Naples. Evidently,
therefore, the lime also was known to the Arabs, who probably played a
major role in spreading its culture through India to Persia, Palestine,
Egypt, and Europe. The first mention of the lime, under that name,
according to T. W. Brown (1924, p. 74), was apparently by Sir Thomas
Herbert (/Travels/, 1677), who spoke of finding "oranges, lemons, and
limes" on the island Mohelia (Moh?li of the Comoro group, off
Mozambique) during a voyage begun in 1626. However, as has been stated
previously, Sylvaticus in the middle of the thirteenth century spoke of
a fruit vulgarly called /lima/ which apparently was what we now know as
the lime (Gallesio, 1811, p. 268). Sir George Watt (1889-1893) stated
that the Arabic word /limoon/ through the Persian is the Hindi word
/lime/ or /limbu/, probably adopted by the Sanskrit people for this
fruit and used with little change in most languages.
According to T. W. Brown (1924), the first reference to the lime in
Egypt was that made by Thevenot, who in his description of the Mataria
garden in 1657 "alludes to '/des petits limons/' and these could hardly
have been anything else but limes." However, Tolkowsky has noted a
reference in one of the stories of the /Arabian Nights/ to "Egyptian
limes and Sultania oranges and citrons." These ancient tales were
collected in their present form about 1450 A.D."

---
As Bear mentioned, " IIRC, "sweet lemon" shows up in German as a term
for lime. It might be worth looking at the original transcription to see
what was actually written."

I don't find that anyone actually referenced these examples from Das
Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin.
Searching again in medievalcookery.com under lime pulls up these two
entries:

120 If you would make a game pie

This is an excerpt from *Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin*
(Germany, 16th century - V. Armstrong, trans.)
The original source can be found at David Friedman's website
<http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Sabrina_Welserin.html>

120 If you would make a game pie, which should be warm. Lard the game
well and cook it and make a formed [pastry] dish and lay in it preserved
limes and cinnamon sticks and currants and lay the game therein and also
put beef suet into it and a little /Malavosia/ and let it cook. This pie
is better warm than cold.

69 A pastry from a capon
This is an excerpt from *Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin*
(Germany, 16th century - V. Armstrong, trans.)
The original source can be found at David Friedman's website
<http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Sabrina_Welserin.html>

69 A pastry from a capon. First pluck the capon and let it boil,
afterwards take it out and remove the small breast bones and chop beef
fat small and put the fat in a bowl. Put two quarts of good wine
therein, a good portion of lean broth, pepper, ginger, cloves and a
little ground nutmeg. Two peeled lemons or limes are also good. After
that prepare an oblong shaped pastry crust. The way in which you should
make the pastry is found in number [sixty one]. In the same way you can
prepare chickens, doves and birds of all kinds for pies.

------
Searching under "lime" as a term in EEBO-TCP turns up 3300 entries
because of the quick-lime and stone lime connections. Or as in ashes and
lime! Searching under "lime" and limiting the search to books that are
catalogued under "cookery" comes up with 8 entries and these are
connected with soaps and concoctions such:

Woolley who in 1670 notes
  "XXXVI. To get away the Signs of the Small Pox.:
Quench some Lime in white Rosewater, then shake it very well, and use it
at your pleasure; when you at any time.."

Digby in his Choice and experimented receipts offers this:
An excellent Lime-water for Obstructions and Ulcers, &c.

TAke one pound of Stone-Lime
hot from the Kiln, and pour upon it a gallon of fair water, let it stand
eight hours, and then pour it off clear, and put into it of English
Licoris, Aniseeeds and Sassafras, of each four ounces, large Mace two
drams; let these infuse in the water twelve hours, then pour it off from
the Ingredients, and keep it for your use.

Drink of this Water twice or thrice a day, half a pint at a time. It is
very excellent for all manner of Obstructions and Ulcers, either inward
or outward, and likewise to be used by way of injection.

We can tell in this case that it's stone lime being used but some of the
other recipes seem to be using stone lime water in place of a citrus
water. This seems to occur in some medicinal texts in the late 17th
century, esp. in the 1680's.
------------
As for a recent book on Citrus fruits see Laszlo's Citrus. A History 
which was published in 2007.

Johnnae


Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:56:42 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] LIMES --- long
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

****clipped original message****
<<< As Bear mentioned, " IIRC, "sweet lemon" shows up in German as a term
for lime. It might be worth looking at the original transcription to see
what was actually written." >>>

I don't find that anyone actually referenced these examples from Das
Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin.
Searching again in medievalcookery.com under lime pulls up these two
entries:

120 If you would make a game pie

This is an excerpt from *Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin*
(Germany, 16th century - V. Armstrong, trans.)
The original source can be found at David Friedman's website
<http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Sabrina_Welserin.html>

120 If you would make a game pie, which should be warm. Lard the game
well and cook it and make a formed [pastry] dish and lay in it preserved
limes and cinnamon sticks and currants and lay the game therein and also
put beef suet into it and a little /Malavosia/ and let it cook. This pie
is better warm than cold.


69 A pastry from a capon
This is an excerpt from *Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin*
(Germany, 16th century - V. Armstrong, trans.)
The original source can be found at David Friedman's website
<http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Sabrina_Welserin.html>

69 A pastry from a capon. First pluck the capon and let it boil,
afterwards take it out and remove the small breast bones and chop beef
fat small and put the fat in a bowl. Put two quarts of good wine
therein, a good portion of lean broth, pepper, ginger, cloves and a
little ground nutmeg. Two peeled lemons or limes are also good. After
that prepare an oblong shaped pastry crust. The way in which you should
make the pastry is found in number [sixty one]. In the same way you can
prepare chickens, doves and birds of all kinds for pies.

Johnnae

**************

I pulled out the Stopp transcription/translation of Welser and looked at 
these recipes in the original and in Stopp's modern German.  Recipe 120 uses 
the term "limona" translated as "Limonen."  Recipe 69 uses the phrase, "2 
geschnitten zittran oder lemoin," translated to "Zwei gescha:lt Zitronen 
oder Limonen."

The modern definition of "lemon" is "Zitrone," "saure Limone," or 
"eigentliche Limone."  "Citron" is "Limone," or, in an obsolete usage, 
"Zitrone."  "Lime" is "Limetta" or "su:sse Limone."

In these instances, the translation to "lime" is probably in error.

Bear


Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:12:35 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Limes
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

<< Michel de Nostredame or Nostradamus in 1555 did provide 
recipes for preserving limes in his confectionery work, so 
they seem to have been known and used in 16th century France. 
The recipe in the English translation is titled ?How to preserve
Limes and bitter oranges while they are small and still green?? It 
calls for ... >>

Could you please comment on the translation of 16th century
French "(petitz) limons" (1556 edition of Nostradamus)
with "lime". Given the "confusion" in terminology, I'd be 
happy to learn more about this passage. 

<< /Healths Improvement/ which was written by Moffett in the 
1590?s and published long after his death in 1655 does mention limes, 
so they were known in Elizabethan England." page 39. I just went back 
and checked Moffett and the passage on lemons and limes
appears on pages 206 and 207.(image 110 on EEBO) and it is 
clear that he means limes as he mentions both with 
relation to the citrons that were mentioned previously. >>

The title page says: "Written by that ever Famous Thomas Moffett ...".
But it continues: "Corrected and Enlarged by Christopher Bennet,
Docktor in Physick, ...". Can we be separate the Moffett parts
from the Bennet parts?

<< Later he writes *"The Lime * Apparently the first mention of the lime in literature was made by Abd-Allatif in the thirteenth century. ... >>

The article, Brighid brought to our attention, says:
"The first reference known to us to the lime is that of 
Abu l-Khayr ... when referring to it as ... [lim] in some
moment between the eleventh and twelfth centuries". (509)

<< I don't find that anyone actually referenced these examples from 
Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin. ... 120 ... 69 >>

The German words in the "Kochbuch" are "lemoin" (in 69) and "lemona" (120). 
There are dozens of further quotations for "lemoni", "limoni" in the
German corpus. The question remains: what kind of evidence is there that these
words refer to limes. (Apart from the Giessmann and Armstrong translation)

Plant names are hell ...

E.


Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:56:13 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Limes
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Since you asked--

emilio szabo wrote:
<<<
<< Michel de Nostredame or Nostradamus in 1555 did provide
recipes for preserving limes in his confectionery work, so
they seem to have been known and used in 16th century France.
The recipe in the English translation is titled ?How to preserve

Limes and bitter oranges while they are small and still green?? It
calls for ... >>

Could you please comment on the translation of 16th century

French "(petitz) limons" (1556 edition of Nostradamus)

with "lime". Given the "confusion" in terminology, I'd be
happy to learn more about this passage. 
>>>

What I was relying on in 2003 when I originally did the text was 
Boeser's translation The Elixirs of Nostradamus.

I just looked up "limon" in the Oxford Premium Reference Online and 
about half the time the word is defined
as lime and for the other half of the time it's defined as lemon! And it 
could be since Boesler was German he went with lime
because of his background in German. This translation is based on a 
German edition of Nostradamus translated into modern
German and then into English. Would the original German edition in the 
16th century have listed limes and not lemons or green lemons and oranges?

Who knows? (I did this recipe with limes and it does work with small 
limes.)

I just looked at my facsimile of an edition from 1557 and it says 
/limons tendres/ and later /les lymons/ and later /les orenges, getons, 
& lymons/.

Not only are plant names hell, but so is the spelling.
<<<
<< /Healths Improvement/ which was written by Moffett in the
1590?s and published long after his death in 1655 does mention limes,
so they were known in Elizabethan England." page 39. I just went back
and checked Moffett and the passage on lemons and limes

appears on pages 206 and 207.(image 110 on EEBO) and it is
clear that he means limes as he mentions both with
relation to the citrons that were mentioned previously. >>

The title page says: "Written by that ever Famous Thomas Moffett ...".
But it continues: "Corrected and Enlarged by Christopher Bennet,
Docktor in Physick, ...". Can we be separate the Moffett parts
from the Bennet parts?
>>>

As I understand it the text is Moffett's. Bennett saw it into print. I 
reread the preface just now and he doesn't say
that he improved it or added anything to Moffet's manuscript or words. 
The 1746 edition is now up on ECCO
so I will take a look at that.

Read the introduction in that and it doesn't say that Bennett expanded 
the original manuscript.

There is a note that seems to indicate that the original manuscript was 
then in existence as part of a Sloan collection,
so sometime I shall have to see if it's still around.

The UM is having problems with the Oxford DN Biographies, so I can't see 
what it says at the moment.

<<<
<< Later he writes *"The Lime * Apparently the first mention of the 
lime in literature was made
by Abd-Allatif in the thirteenth century. ... >>

The article, Brighid brought to our attention, says:
"The first reference known to us to the lime is that of
Abu l-Khayr ... when referring to it as ... [lim] in some
moment between the eleventh and twelfth centuries". (509)
>>>

I don't know. Could well be that they can date it back another century 
or two now.

<<<
<< I don't find that anyone actually referenced these examples from
Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin. ... 120 ... 69 >>

The German words in the "Kochbuch" are "lemoin" (in 69) and "lemona" (120).
There are dozens of further quotations for "lemoni", "limoni" in the
German corpus. The question remains: what kind of evidence is there 
that these words refer to limes. (Apart from the Giessmann and Armstrong 
translation)

Plant names are hell ...

E.
>>>
And if the translation for Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin, that is online
needs to be corrected, I don't think the translator is around anymore.

Johnna


Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 23:08:04 -0500
From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Biron:    A lemon.
Longaville:    Stuck with cloves.

Loves Labour's Lost, 5,2

Daniel


Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 22:39:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

According to the OED, the first printed instance of the use of the word "Lime" as a fruit or fruit tree was in 1638.  In fact, the first meaning of "lime" in the OED is about birdlime, which was used first in the 8th century.  The chemical "lime" started in the 14th century.  The OED lists five different meanings of "lime" before it gets to the fruit meaning. I doubt very much if Shakespeare was referring to the fruit when he used the word "lime" twelve times.  More likely he was referring to the substance or chemical.

Huette


Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 02:45:57 -0500
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>,	"Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

take with grain of salt
http://www.recipes4us.co.uk/Specials%20and%20Holidays/Limes%20Origin%20Uses%
20Recipes.htm
(note I tried to tinyurl but the website seems to be having problems)
"Limes  are a smallish fruit  which belong to the plant family Rutaceae
(citrus family).  They are similar to lemons but generally smaller and have
a fresher taste and a more aromatic smell. The whole of the plant is used
for culinary purposes i.e. the juice, skin (pericarp),  pulp in some cases
the leaves and the fruits are usually picked and used when unripe (green).
When fully ripe the fruit are yellow.

Origin and History

The Lime is a native of the East Indies and has spread all over the world in
tropical and near tropical regions. Here we are going to concentrate on the
three best known varieties used in cooking.

Mexican lime Arabian traders introduced it to North Africa and the Near East
towards the end of the 10th Century AD and it was in turn introduced  the
Mediterranean by the Crusaders during the 12th and 13th Centuries AD. Good
old Columbus is credited with having introduced  it to the New World and
Spanish immigrants took it on to Florida where the success in its
cultivation in the Florida Keys led to it being referred to as the Key Lime.
Key limes are much smaller than Persian limes.

Persian Lime also known as Tahiti Lime (Citrus latifolia) is from uncertain
origins. It is thought to be a hybrid of the Mexican Lime (see above)  and
Citron (Citrus medica) developed in the early 20th century.  They are larger
than the Mexican lime,  usually seedless and less less acidic.

Kaffir lime (Citrus hystrix.) is native to South East Asia. Popular in Thai,
Indonesian and Malaysian cuisines (amongst others), it is the leaves which
are mostly used. As this plant grows wild in many places, one can only
assume that it has been used for culinary purposes for thousands of years."


Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 23:51:33 +0000
From: t.d.decker at att.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] poll - what is a citrangula?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

In a translation of one of Avicenna's medical texts (11th Century), citrangula is generally translated as orange.  I've also seen a later text (author and date escapes me) where citrangula and limones (either citrons or lemons) are mentioned in the same sentence.  However, we can't rule out that Scully is reference a regional usage of the word.

Bear

-------------- Original message from Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>: -----
Just trying to get a quick idea of what the experts think. 

Scully says citrangula means lemon. 

Maier says citrangula is a bitter orange. 

Both refer to fourteenth-century texts. 

Giano 


Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 20:30:31 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] poll - what is a citrangula?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

A quick search in Google books finds lots of mentions.
oleum de citrangula means oil of oranges.

In
Manoscritto Lucano
By Michael S?thold
Published by Librairie Droz, 1994 on page 9
citrangula  is given as arancia amara

Johnnae

Volker Bach wrote:
<<< Just trying to get a quick idea of what the experts think.
Scully says citrangula means lemon. 
Maier says citrangula is a bitter orange.
Both refer to fourteenth-century texts.

Giano >>>


Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 12:03:03 +0000 (GMT)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] citrangula in Avicenna or in Ioannes
	Damascenus
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--- emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it> schrieb am Mo, 4.5.2009:
Scully says citrangula means lemon. 
Maier says citrangula is a bitter orange.
Both refer to fourteenth-century texts. 

> Which texts? Which languages?
---------

Both Latin, though both influenced by their respective (Italian and French) vernaculars). Scully's identification is for the Opusculum de Saporibus, Maier's for the Liber de Coquina. I've seen citrangula more commonly identified as orange, but that could be a coincidence depending on the texts I have access to. 

Giano


Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:32:16 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tudor Recipe help
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Unless you are doing very early Tudor, the orange could have been a sweet 
orange.  Sweet oranges enter Mediterranean Europe via Portugal in the first 
quarter of the 16th Century and quickly became the favorite orange of 
Europe.  By Elizabethean times, sweet and sour oranges would have been 
readily available.

Bear


Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 06:38:02 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tudor Recipe help
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Since the recipe is given as being from "G. Markham- The English Housewife"
it could well be a sweeter orange. Markham's EH first came out in 1615
and appears often thereafter.
There is a reliable online history of oranges. It's part of the book:
Reuther, Webber, and  Batchelor. /The Citrus Industry/. Revised Edition. 
Riverside, CA:  University of California. Division of Agricultural 
Sciences, 1967. Volume I: History, World Distribution, Botany, and 
Varieties. http://lib.ucr.edu/agnic/webber/

Actually they point out, as does Tolkowsky, that it's probable some sort 
of sweet orange was already growing
"in the Mediterranean regions of Europe prior to Vasco da Gama's voyage 
of discovery of 1497 A.D"....
because in 1483, "the king of France, Louis XI, ....requests that the 
governor send him "citrons and sweet oranges , muscatel pears and 
parsnips, and it is for the holy man who eats neither meat nor fish and 
you will be doing me a very great pleasure."

 Since the holy man referred to is Saint Francis of Paula, who had just 
arrived at the court of Louis XI,
Tolkowsky considered it probable that the pious monk had already become 
accustomed to eating sweet oranges in his native country of Calabria.

     By the beginning of the sixteenth century, there was abundant 
evidence showing that the sweet orange had become well established and 
had assumed commercial importance in southern Europe."

Johnnae

Terry Decker wrote:
<<< Unless you are doing very early Tudor, the orange could have been a 
sweet orange.  Sweet oranges enter Mediterranean Europe via Portugal 
in the first quarter of the 16th Century and quickly became the 
favorite orange of Europe.  By Elizabethean times, sweet and sour 
oranges would have been readily available.

Bear >>>


Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:43:57 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Oranges was Tudor Recipe help
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Nice quote.  Apochryphally (and according to Wikipedia), the sweet oranges 
referenced as a "Portugals" are all descended from a single root stock 
brought from China by Vasco da Gama, said tree now residing at the Lisbon 
home of the Count de Saint-Laurent.  The story is almost certainly bogus 
considering Da Gama never reached China and I haven't been able to locate 
anything that ties Saint-Laurent to Lisbon.  Louis XI's words make the tale 
demostrably false.  It also blows a big hole in the generally accepted 
Portuguese introduction that I've held to for a number of years.

The quote lends some credence to a linguistic argument for the introduction 
of sweet oranges to the Mediterranean via Persia in the Late Middle Ages.

Bear

<<< Actually they point out, as does Tolkowsky, that it's probable some sort 
of sweet orange was already growing
"in the Mediterranean regions of Europe prior to Vasco da Gama's voyage of 
discovery of 1497 A.D"....
because in 1483, "the king of France, Louis XI, ....requests that the 
governor send him "citrons and sweet oranges , muscatel pears and 
parsnips, and it is for the holy man who eats neither meat nor fish and 
you will be doing me a very great pleasure."
Since the holy man referred to is Saint Francis of Paula, who had just 
arrived at the court of Louis XI,
Tolkowsky considered it probable that the pious monk had already become 
accustomed to eating sweet oranges in his native country of Calabria.

Johnnae >>>


Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:20:43 -0400
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tudor Recipe help -  the Seville Orange
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Bear wrote:
<<< Unless you are doing very early Tudor, the orange could have been a sweet 
orange.  Sweet oranges enter Mediterranean Europe via Portugal in the first 
quarter of the 16th Century and quickly became the favorite orange of 
Europe.  By Elizabethan times, sweet and sour oranges would have been 
readily available. >>>

I call the Seville orange: Citrus ayrantium. Although introduced to the 
Iberian Peninsula at the end of the 15 C or the beginning of the 16th I 
question its availability in northern Europe before the 17-18C although 
it could have been common on the Med. Shakespeare does advertise it in 
Much Ado II i.204, saying "/The count is neither sad//, //nor sick//, 
//nor/ merry, /nor/ well: but civil (ciuill), /count/; civil (ciuill) as 
an orange, *.* . ."

Now would that be a bitter or sweet count??

Nola calls for "toronjas" which Brigid translates as oranges while 
others might translate it as citron. In some places she specifies sour, 
in others she indicates sour saying verjuice or orange juice or orange 
juice and sugar, still in others she says wine or orange juice making 
one think that could be sweet orange juice and in other cases there is 
no clue whether sweet or sour. Nola was published in 1529  but it is 
thought to have been written between 1470-1480.

Suey


Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 01:04:39 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tudor Recipe help -  the Seville Orange
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< I call the Seville orange: Citrus ayrantium. Although introduced to the 
Iberian Peninsula at the end of the 15 C or the beginning of the 16th I 
question its availability in northern Europe before the 17-18C although it 
could have been common on the Med. Shakespeare does advertise it in Much 
Ado II i.204, saying "/The count is neither sad//, //nor sick//, //nor/ 
merry, /nor/ well: but civil (ciuill), /count/; civil (ciuill) as an 
orange, *.* . ."

Now would that be a bitter or sweet count??

Nola calls for "toronjas" which Brigid translates as oranges while others 
might translate it as citron. In some places she specifies sour, in others 
she indicates sour saying verjuice or orange juice or orange juice and 
sugar, still in others she says wine or orange juice making one think that 
could be sweet orange juice and in other cases there is no clue whether 
sweet or sour. Nola was published in 1529  but it is thought to have been 
written between 1470-1480.
Suey >>>

According to Davidson in The Oxford Companion to Food, the sour or Seville 
orange (C. aurantia), was being grown in Sicily at the beginning of the 11th 
Century and was being grown around Seville by the end of the 12th Century 
with the earliest known description of the orange being from Albertus Magnus 
in the 13th Century.  This tends to agree with most other sources, so I 
question the accuracy of a 15th Century introduction for the Seville orange.

A late 15th Century date works for sweet oranges (some variant of C. 
sinensis).  Again according to Davidson, the first known reference to sweet 
oranges occurs in the Savona city archives of 1471, however he suggests that 
the actual introduction (via the Geonese) was earlier, based on a quote from 
Platina, who says sweet oranges "are almost always suitable for the stomach 
as a first course and the tart ones may be sweetened with sugar."  I haven't 
located the quote, but I have found reference to oranges and Milham's 
footnote on "mala rancia."

I believe that oranges were definitely available in England during the Tudor 
period.  One of the people invloved in studying the plantain that was found 
in Tudor midden is working on a paper on the exotic fruit market in London.

Unfortunately, it is late and I will be traveling the next couple of days, 
so I will have to set this aside for now.

Bear 


Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 00:23:44 -0700
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tudor Recipe help -  the Seville Orange
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On 6/12/09 11:04 PM, "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net> wrote:
<<< based on a quote from Platina, who says sweet oranges "are almost always
suitable for the stomach
as a first course and the tart ones may be sweetened with sugar."  I haven't
located the quote, but I have found reference to oranges and Milham's
footnote on "mala rancia." >>>

It can be found on page 146-147 of Milham in BK II Entry 7
The whole quote is "Almost the same things can be said about those citron or
medicinal apples which are commonly called oranges: really because some are
sweet, some tart, the reason for eating is repeated from the earlier
recipes. Even the sweet ones ae good for the stomach if eaten at any time
before the meal. They are not tart if they have been dipped in sugar, which
is done when the peel is removed and the membranes are taken out."

Milham has two footnotes that deal with citron, citron apples and oranges.
They can be found on page 143 and 145.

Eduardo 


Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 09:02:50 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Elizabethan chickeny goodness

<<< This is from The Good Housewife's Jewell:

To boile a Capon with Orenges and Lemmons. Take Orenges or Lemmons  
pilled, and cutte them the long way, and if you can keepe your cloves  
whole and put them into your best broth of Mutton or Capon with prunes  
or currants and three or fowre dates, and when these have beene well  
sodden put whole pepper great mace, a good piece of suger, some rose  
water, and eyther white or claret Wine, and let al these seeth  
together a while, and so serve it upon soppes with your capon.

I skipped the sugar on the theory that the oranges in the original  
recipe were probably sour oranges (since the other option is lemons) >>>

<< Do we know at what point "oranges" in recipes shifted its default  
meaning from sour to sweet? By Elizabethan times sweet oranges were  
available, but I have no idea how commonly they were used.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com >>

I don't know that we can definitively say whether, when or if they  
would have been sweet or sour
when found in an English market in the late 16th century.
Both types were both being grown, but what would have been available  
at what times in the marketplace and at what price, ????

Gerard's The herball or Generall historie of plantes of 1633 says  
about the orange:

"the fruit is round like a ball, euery circumstance belonging to the  
forme is very well knowne to all; the taste is soure, sometimes sweet,  
and often of a taste betweene both: the seeds are like those of the  
Limon."

So here we have a report that the taste may be "soure, sometimes  
sweet" and often something in between.
-------

There are earlier versions of this recipe. See:
To stue a Capon in Lemmons. (this is the more lemon version)

 from A Book of Cookrye first published in 1584
(England, 1591)
Slice your Lemmons and put them in a platter, and put to them white  
Wine and Rosewater, and so boile them and Sugar til they be tender.  
Then take the best of the broth wherin your Capon is boyled, and put  
thereto whole Mace, whole pepper & red Corance, barberies, a little  
time, & good store of Marow. Let them boile well togither til the  
broth be almost boiled away that you have no more then will wette your  
Sops. Then poure your Lemmons upon your Capon, & season your broth  
with Vergious and Sugar, and put it upon your Capon also.

And from the same book

To boyle a Capon with Orenges or Lemmons.

Take your Capon and boyle him tender and take a little of the broth  
when it is boyled and put it into a pipkin with Mace and Sugar a good  
deale, and pare three Orenges and pil them and put them in your  
pipkin, and boile them a little among your broth, and thicken it with  
wine and yolkes of egges, and Sugar a good deale, and salt but a  
little, and set your broth no more on the fire for quailing, and serve  
it without sippets.

Another is just for the sauce:

To make sauce for a capon an other way.

Take Claret Wine, Rosewater, sliced Orenges, Sinamon and ginger, and  
lay it upon Sops, and lay your Capon upon it.

----- (BTW, All of these are indexed at medievalcookery.com)

I think what is more important with regard to these recipes would be  
the amount of meat found in a capon in proportion to the sauce. I  
suspect the recipes may well intend that there be more meat than sauce.

Johnnae


From: Anne <orionsdaughter at gmail.com>
Date: January 9, 2011 10:19:45 PM CST
To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} Re: So, Dulcia and Alysoun Plan Your Feast Menu, or...Are You Allergic to Iodine? Then Stay Home.

limes are not a new world food.  Key or otherwise. 
Key limes are also known as Mexican lime and West Indies lime. Cultivated for thousands of years in the Indo-Malayan region, this variety has long been treasured for its fruit and decorative foliage. 

The Key lime made its way to North Africa and the Near East via Arabian traders, and then carried on to Palestine and Mediterranean Europe by the Crusaders. Columbus is credited with bringing the Key lime to Hispaniola (now known as Haiti), where it was carried on by Spanish settlers to Florida. 


From: Anne <orionsdaughter at gmail.com>
Date: January 10, 2011 7:43:16 PM CST
To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com
Subject: {TheTriskeleTavern} For Stefan, limes, lemons and citrus oh my!

<<< fruit-citrus-msg (164K) 4/17/10 Period citrus fruits. Recipes.
http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-FRUITS/fruit-citrus-msg.html

Stefan >>>

I noticed that the first post  had no documentation in it... it is also rather erroneous.  Citrus is an old world fruit.  Key limes contrary to the authors theory, I don't know what else to call it.  Are NOT a new world food.  
While this is not a perfect source...........
http://www.thenibble.com/reviews/main/fruits/types-of-lime.asp
read the history part of limes.  

http://ezinearticles.com/?History-Of-Citrus&id=270715

In my Master Gardening class the UF instructor told us that oranges are believed to have originated in India and lime and or lemons SE Asia.  
If that is correct, then Key limes would indeed be an old world food.

Aine


Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 15:23:20 -0400
From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] My dinner de-brief

<<< What's the earliest mention anyone here has seen of citrus fruits 
north of Spain and Italy? >>>

It's not early, but Rumpolt has a *lot* of recipes with lemon. 
Including salted lemons, which would travel better than fresh lemons.

Ranvaig


Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 15:01:27 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] My dinner de-brief

<<< What's the earliest mention anyone here has seen of citrus fruits north of 
Spain and Italy? >>>

It's not early, but Rumpolt has a *lot* of recipes with lemon. Including 
salted lemons, which would travel better than fresh lemons.

Ranvaig
============

Lemons show up in Sabina Welserin (1553).

I have encountered a reference to oranges being delivered to Southhampton in 
a Spanish ship in 1290, but have not located the original source.  Queen 
Eleanor (wife of Edward I) is supposed to have purchased some, so there may 
be a reference in the royal accounts.

John Lydgate (1370-1451) references oranges and lemons in the poem Pur le 
Roy celebrating the arrival of Henry VI in London in 1432.

Bear


Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 14:58:39 -0400
From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for Recipes for Seville Orange Peel

<<< I've just scored a heap of Seville Orange 
Peel... I'll keep and freeze the juice for 
recipes later but I want to use the peel...
I do remember the ex-wife years ago making 
suckets from the peel, but for the life of me, I 
cant find a recipe... >>>

Rumpolt has a number of recipes using Seville 
oranges (Pomerantzen) the peel, the juice, as 
well as the whole fruit.  No mention of sweet 
oranges.

	Meat is often studded or covered (gespickt) with orange peel
then stud it with a Seville orange/ and cut the 
orange wide/ and nicely thin/ and stud it with it 
(stick pieces of the orange peel into the meat)/ 
and when it is nearly time to dress it/

	Meat or fish is cooked with orange juice

	Orange juice squeezed over meat just before it is served.
When one wants to dress it on a table/ then one 
presses sour Seville orange juice into it/ then 
it will be good and lovely.

Carbonados from the capon.  Take the capon/ pull 
the skin off/ dismember thighs and wings from it/ 
beat with a knife back/ salt and pepper it/ lay 
it on a grill/ and roast it quickly away/ baste 
it with hot bacon (with bacon fat??)/ and when 
you will dress it/ then pour a nice brown broth 
over it/ or peel a seville
/ that is sour/ nicely wide and thin/ lay it 
nicely on the carbonados/ and press the juice 
from the seville orange on it/ and let it be soon 
carried onto a table/ while it is warm/ like this 
it is good and elegant.

	"Pobrat" sauce is made with orange juice.

And if you will take with it Seville oranges/ 
salted or unsalted lemons/ then slice it nicely 
wide under it/ or make a pepper (sauce) under it 
from a chicken blood/ Then take to it a little 
black raisins/ cinnamon/ cloves/ ground pepper/ 
and a little sugar/ let it come to a boil 
together/ then give it under the roast.)

When one will give it warm/ then one makes a 
Pobrat sauce under it/ be it sweet or sour/ or 
else in a brown broth/ that is nicely sour.  Or 
make a sweet Pobrat sauce/ take a good handful of 
sugar/ that is ground/ add it in a small tinned 
kettle/ or in a small pan/ that the potter makes/ 
add to it sugar/ ground cinnamon/ take also a 
little saffron and cloves under it/ pour a little 
wine over it/ that the sugar just melts and 
glazes/ cut from a citron nicely wide under it/ 
or from salted/ or sour lemon/ that is fresh/ or 
from a Seville orange/ Put it in the kettle/ and 
let just a boil open (come just to a boil)/ so it 
becomes nicely white from sugar/ when it is 
cooked.  If you will instead save the sugar/ then 
take a little browned flour to it/ so the probrat 
also becomes thick and good/ also pour a little 
vinegar in it/ so it becomes lovely and well 
tasting. And such a pobrat sauce one can give 
under all sorts of birds/ that are roasted/ also 
well with wild game.

Cold roasted rock pheasant with a pobrat sauce/ 
which has no fat/ as is described before/ to make 
the pobrat from pure sugar/ let come to a boil 
with wine and vinegar/ orange or lemon sliced 
nicely wide/ let come to a boil with it/ after 
that pour into the dish and let become cold/ lay 
the roasted rock pheasant in it/ when it is 
sprinkled with cloves and cinnamon/ and not with 
bacon/ because it is not lovely with bacon/ 
especially if one wishes to eat it cold in this 
manner.

A pheasant roasted warm with a sweet Pobrat 
sauce.  Take wine/ likewise also a little 
vinegar/ saffron/ cinnamon and seville orange 
sliced in it/ sour lemon or citron made well 
sweet/ and let come to a boil with it/ that it 
becomes thick from sugar/ like this it becomes 
good and also well tasting.

	Seville oranges sliced and sprinkled with 
sugar are one of the usual condiments 
(Zugeh?rung) served with a roast.

 Sour Seville orange juice. When one presses out 
the seville orange/ one mixes the juice with 
cinnamon and sugar/ given cold to the roast/ is 
good and well tasting.

Seville oranges cut nicely wide/ and sprinkled with sugar/ are also good.

	Oranges were served as a salad
	Salad from oranges and juice.
	Dry orange peels were served as a salad

Seville Orange salad/ peel and cut them nicely wide/ sprinkle with white sugar.

	Orange tart

Seville orange tart/ peel and slice them nicely 
wide/ and bake it quickly in an oven/ give it 
warm or cold on a table/ as it is good and well 
tasting in both manners.

	Both orange peels and whole oranges were preserved (Eyngemachte)

It also says to buy sugar coated (vberzogen) 
orange peels from the Apothecary (Apotecken)

Take a Seville orange peel/ soak it whole/ or cut 
it small/ let soak fourteen days in water and 
salt/ until the bitterness comes away/ wash with 
cold water/ and set to the fire in another water/ 
and let boil well/ take it out/ and cool off/ 
preserve with clarified sugar/ as one preserves 
the citron/ like this it becomes good and well 
tasting.

	Then here is the recipe for citron

Take a citron (Zitron)/ and is it inside juicy/ 
then cut the juice out/ and press it/ boil it 
with quince juice/ and make sweet/ pour in a 
mold/ or in a box/ like this it becomes good and 
lovely.

Take the next citron/ and slice it fine 
lengthwise/ cut the white from the peel/ prick 
the peels with a bodkin or needle/ soak in a cold 
water/ pour a handful of salt or three into it/ 
after the citron/  and let soak in it three or 
four nights/ wash again three or four waters/ and 
let soak again a night or two/ that the salt 
comes away

set to (the fire) in a tinned fish kettle with 
water/ and let simmer/ until one can pull the 
yellow peel away with the fingers/ put them on a 
clean board with the white/ that you have cut 
away:

Since the gold from citron must boil longer/ than 
the white/ and when has cooled down a little/ 
then put it in clear sugar/ that is clarified and 
nicely cooked thick/ let lay there in a day or 
four/ so the sugar becomes thin again/ then 
clarify it again as a new with white from an egg/ 
let cook until thick again/

pour it through a wool cloth/ pour it again over 
the citron/ and put three or four times 
therefore/ like this it becomes even better/ and 
keeps long.  Thus one preserves the citron.  You 
might also cut the peel from citron nicely thin 
and long/ like this it is also elegant and good.

	Or made into preserves

Seville orange juice let boil with peach juice/ becomes good and well tasting.

Ranvaig


Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 14:57:28 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for Recipes for Seville Orange Peel

The peel is commonly used to prepare orange marmalade.  As sweet oranges 
begin to arrive in Europe around 1520, it is highly probable that the sucket 
recipe in question uses Seville oranges.

Bear

<<< It is my understanding that the orange referred to in nearly all medieval 
Islamic cookbooks -- from Baghdad to al-Andalus -- is the bitter or 
Seville orange. If I recall correctly (I don't have the books with me 
right now), it's usually the pulp or the juice the want, so the pel alone 
might not be usable in the recipes. Still, you may want to consult one of 
the several collections:

Medieval Cuisine of the Islamic World (Zaouali)
Medieval Islamic Cookery (Perry, Rodinson, et al.)
Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens (Nasrallah)
Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook (Perry)

-- Galefridus >>>


Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 20:39:55 +0000
From: CHARLES POTTER <basiliusphocas at hotmail.com>
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for Recipes for Seville Orange Peel

One of the things I do when I have fresh Seville oranges is remove only the zest (orange skin) and leave the white pith.  The white pith is very bitter.  The juice and zest will both freeze and will make a very good vinaigrette with olive oil, salt, and sugar or honey.

                         Master B


Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 01:18:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Early Italian oranges

p 137 of this modern journal has an interesting  article on the origin of 
oranges in Italy:

Quaderni d'italianistica :  revue officielle de la Soci?t? canadienne pour 
les ?tudes italiennes = official  journal of the Canadian Society for 
Italian Studies,  1994

https://ia700402.us.archive.org/32/items/quaderniditalian15cana/quadernidita
lian15cana.pdf

Jim  Chevallier
www.chezjim.com


Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 15:32:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Galefridus Peregrinus <galefridus at optimum.net>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Meyer lemons

<<< I have a full bag (about 10 lbs?)  of organic Meyer lemons - any ideas on what I can do with them? I made preserved lemons the last time I got them, and would like to try something different.

Lady Natal'ia Georgievicha >>>

I'm pretty sure that Meyer lemons are a modern cultivar, dating from the 
18th or 19th century. Nevertheless, I see no reason why you couldn't use 
the things in any recipe calling for lemon juice, pulp, or zest. There 
are a number of limuwiyya/limuniyya recipes in al-Baghdadi, the 
Description of Familiar Foods, and the Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook, to 
say nothing of the various medieval and Renaissance European cookbooks.

-- Galefridus


Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 14:42:14 -0500
From: MarietteA <mariettea at jfolse.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Meyer lemons

Meyer lemons are a cross between a lemon and a mandarin orange. They 
originated in China as house plants. In the early 1900's, Frank Meyer, 
an agricultural explorer, discovered them there and introduced it to the 
U.S.  They don't have the tang of a regular lemon, but make a very 
delicious lemon icebox pie.
-- 
Mariette Acocella
Communications Department
Chef John Folse & Co.

<the end>
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