fruit-citrus-msg - 12/21/06 Period citrus fruits. Recipes. Oranges. Limes. Lemons. NOTE: See also the files: fruits-msg, fruit-apples-msg, fruit-melons-msg, fruit-pears-msg, fruit-quinces-msg, desserts-msg, presrvd-lemons-msg, candied-peels-msg, berries-msg, strawberries-msg, plums-msg, Period-Fruit-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:08:39 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Julleran's Sugar/C marilyn traber wrote: > If memory serves me, limes we use today are a post period subspecies > cross of lemon and key lime but i may be wrong, though in herbals a lime > tree is mentioned, it is a temperate deciduous tree fond in england and > the leaves are used. As far as I know, there are three types of citrus fruit limes. Persian limes and Tahitian limes are the Old World varieties, although the Tahitian lime was discovered by Europeans more or less after the discovery of the New World Lime, which is the Key lime. Persian limes are pretty much the only period option, but you'd be most likely to find them in Indian and Persian dishes. Persian limes are small, maybe two inches across, roundish, and have a thin skin. (Key limes are even smaller, spherical, with an even thinnner skin, which is almost yellow when ripe). Tahiti limes, which have achieved the status thay have reached in spite of being kinda insipid, but are generally seedless, easy to peel, and travel extremely well, are large, oblong, and with the ubiquitous bumps at either end. Adamantius Date: Sun, 21 Sep 97 20:26:34 UT From: "Paul Louis" <pocopup at classic.msn.com> Subject: RE: SC - Julleran's Sugar/C Paul Louis wrote: > Try the key lime oil . It is very intense, and a little goes a long > way.I have been using it in my Thai recipies. Great to know that I can use it > in my SCA cooking too. > Olga Where did you get the oil at? margali I ordered it, from Sexton, I think. It is available in specialty stores. Brand name is "Floribbean" Key Lime Savory Oil. Olga Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:32:39 -0400 (EDT) From: ANN1106 at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Substitute for bitter orange I have never heard of the orange/lemon juice as a substitute for bitter orange. When I make a Bitter Orange Sauce to be used with desserts, I cut the peel of half of the oranges that I will be using and add this to the juice. The sauce is then heated (with cornstarch, sugar and juice of a lemon). When ready, the peels are allowed to macerate for 30 minutes before straining and storing. Cointreau and Triple Sec are two alcoholic liqueurs that are made from Seville (Bitter) Oranges. Audrey (aaparker at aol.com) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 18:09:50 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Substitute for bitter orange ANN1106 at aol.com wrote: > I have never heard of the orange/lemon juice as a substitute for bitter > orange. When I make a Bitter Orange Sauce to be used with desserts, I cut > the peel of half of the oranges that I will be using and add this to the > juice. The sauce is then heated (with cornstarch, sugar and juice of a > lemon). When ready, the peels are allowed to macerate for 30 minutes before > straining and storing. > Cointreau and Triple Sec are two alcoholic liqueurs that are made from > Seville (Bitter) Oranges. > Audrey (aaparker at aol.com) I have heard of it; while addition of some peel certainly helps with the bitter aspect, the fact is that Seville oranges aren't nearly as sweet as most of the varieties available to Americans. Probably a combination of lemon and orange, with a bit of the orange peel, would be best. Adamantius Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:00:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Ladypeyton at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Substitute for bitter orange >I believe I have seen a substitute for bitter orange My copy of The Miami Spice Cookbook (Cuban cooking) which uses bitter oranges in every third recipe says that straight lime juice is a suitable replacement. Too Hot Tamales on Food TV Network say either a mixture of 1/2 orange juice & 1/2 grapefruit juice or 1/2 orange juice & 1/2 lime juice. Lady Peyton Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:24:20 -0600 From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net> Subject: SC - A bit Bland--Now Jazzed up >I have recently whipped up an almond tart, which is remarkably period, >however that is the only remarkable thing about it. While I don't know >much about English cooking in the late 1500's, I would love some... >topping to use that would be period. > >Bogdan Bogdan, here are a cuple of ideas for your use: Pickled lemons (recipe follows) which is basically based on anecdotal evidence and adapted from two other similar recipes, or preserved oranges from Good Huswife's Jewel (Dawson). Both are English, and fit into your time frame. I can paraphrase my redaction for the oranges but don't have my source right in front of me. Devilish Idea: Use both since they have a similar process, and then alternate the thin slices on the top of the almond tart, making a fan. Beautiful! Now I feel inspired! BTW the syrup from both the recipes is wonderful and makes a great beverage mixed with cold water. So that would kill two birds with one stone at a forthcoming feast, Yes? Hope that the oranges/lemons "make" the dish, the next time you try it. I'm Sorry I saw your message after the offending tart had already been consumed! Aoife _______________________________________ Preserved Oranges: Take four perfect oranges (I like tangerines, actually, because of flavor and medieval-type size. Bonus: with a thin skin, they are far less bitter after preserving. I'm not sure how thick the skin of period fruit would have been, but some recipes such as the original in Dawson have us soaking the fruit overnight to partially re-hydrate them ). Take two oranges that are not so perfect. Wash them all. Juice the two imperfect oranges and set aside the juice (discard the peel). The perfect oranges are treated thusly: Make a small core-type hole in the stem end big enough to insert your little finger, pulling out any white membrane attached to the core. Discard. Holding the orange over a bowl to catch any juice, insert a paring knife and twist it several times, to break up the membranes inside. Insert your little finger into the hole and press gently towards the side walls, dislodging as many seeds as possible. Allow the seeds and juice to flow into the bowl. Now, take the tip of the knife and prick the outer skin all over fairly closely together (these pricks do not show up in the finished product). Set aside and repeat with the remaining three oranges. On the rangetop, have two large pots of boiling water (2/3 full) going at a rolling boil. Immerse all the oranges in the first pot. Return to a boil and boil for five minutes. Remove with a slotted spoon, and place in the second pot. Discard the water in the first and boil it again with fresh water. Continue shifting the oranges between pots until they are tender and the skin is slightly transparant. A thin sliver of the skin should taste citrusy but not bitter. As this point (which may take 5-7 boilings), set the oranges aside in your drippings-bowl to drain. In a clean saucepan, put one cup of water, all the orange juice, all the drippings (strained of seeds), and 2 cups sugar. Beat in the white of one egg with a whisk. Slowly bring to a boil and continue beating, until you are sure no threads of egg white will form. Scum off any foam that rises (there will be a lot---discard it or eat it as you please). Carefully lower the oranges into the sugar syrup, and simmer for about 5 minutes. Turn the fire off and let the oranges cool in the pot. They can be sealed airtight and stored in the fridge, or they can be canned. I kept mine on the counter, in a period method sealed with a waxed parchment on top, but it grew a beard of white mold. When the mold was removed, however, the oranges were uneffected. I can't keep them longer than a month (they're devoured), so I can't speak to longevity. That's the gist of the recipe that won me the Dessert category at Ice Dragon, served with almond butter and crisp flaky pastry rounds . Hope it works for you! __________________________________ Pickled Lemons (adapted from Preserved Orenges, Dawson, and A Sallet of Lemons from A book of Fruits and Flowers, and various anecdotal evidence such as Elizabeth Ayreton's Food in Briton, etc.). This recipe copyright 1997 by L. Herr-Gelatt. 2 blemish-free lemons Juice and zest of 1 lemon (no white) 1 cup white wine (sweet, like Rhine wine) 1 c. sugar 1/3 cup vinegar (I used home-made costmary/lemon verbena vinegar) Cut a small round hole in the 2 lemons the size of the end of your little finger. Remove the piece of peel. Insert a paring knife into the hole and give it several twists to loosen and break the membranes. Insert little finger and press gently against the flesh to try and loosen any pits. Remove the pits that fall out, and reserve the draining lemon juice for syrup, below. Gently bring to boil 1 quart of water in a suacepan. Lower lemons into the pan and boil rapidly 5 minutes. Remove and drain. Repeat 3 more times with fresh water (it is more efficient to have a pan heating while boiling in another). Drain them well. In a separate saucepan combine remaining ingredients (and the drained lemon juice from above). Bring to a boil to combine, and turn off heat. When lemons have been boiled in the 4 changes of water, put them (drained) into the wine-syrup mixture and bring to a boil. Reduce heat and simmer approx. 15 minutes or until syrup volume has reduced by 1/3-1/2. Cool. Remove lemon zest and reserve for another use (it is now candied). Store in an airtight container. Slice lemons thinly or dice and use pieces in salads. Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:00:54 -0400 From: "Paul and Jillian Louis" <pocopup at email.msn.com> Subject: Re: SC - Blood Oranges I remember a bit of information about blood oranges from my teaching days, unfortunately I do not have the sources from whence I picked this up, Blood oranges were found by the crusaders on the island of Malta. Hence the name of the Hollandaise variante that uses their juice " Sauce Maltaise" They have a dark red interior when they are ripe. if they are harvested too imature, the juice is bitter. When allowed to ripen on the tree their juice is sweeter than your average navel orange. If you wish to work in with blood orange juice in large quantities there is a good product on the market from Assoline and Ting. hope this helps, Olga Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:58:31 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Blood Oranges > The orange used in medieval times was the Seville, or sour orange, which I > believe is still available in Europe. I use the sour Valencias off my mom's > tree to approximate the taste. > > Renata According to ye olde quick ref, oranges originate in China and were transplanted into India from there, then from India into the Middle East. Seville oranges (Citrus aurantium) were introduced into Spain by the Moors and from there into Europe. The Portuguese introduced a variety of sweet oranges from Japan about 1529. I suspect, but do not know, that these were C. reticulata, which include the mandarine orange, the tangerine and the Satsuma varieties. C. sinensis, which are sweeter still and include Navel and Valencia oranges, were introduced to Europe about 1635. Given those points, your Valencias may actually be Sevilles. I've been trying to find Sevilles locally without much luck. I wanted to try my hand at making marmalade. Bear Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 17:25:38 -0900 From: "Reia M. Chmielowski" <kareina at eagle.ptialaska.net> Subject: RE: SC - Re: Pine Nut Confection -- One Last Time >Limes were cultivated in the Indus Valley about 4000 BC and in China around >700. So the question is, when did they get to Europe? Unfortunately, I >don't have any other sources handy to cross reference. According to _The Visual Food Encyclopedia_ published by Macmillan USA 1996 ISBN 0 -02-861006-7 "The lime tree was brought to France and Italy by the Crusaders in the 13th Century." It doesn't happen to cite its source, but then encyclopedias often don't within articles... - --Kareina Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:29:43 +0000 From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au> Subject: re: SC - Re: Limes At 08:03 06/01/1999 -0700, Gwen-Cat wrote re limes: >Citron shel uberzogen >Limone shel uberzogen > >I translate this as Lemon peel coated and Lime peel coated... I agree that Limone is lemon, but I think Citron is likley to be Citron - another member of the citrus family. The fruit is pale green, about the size and shape of an avacodo but with *very* thick citrus skin (almost the entire fruit). The candied peel/fruit is still used in many German and Italian recipies - I buy it from the deli. It has a great taste, similar to but distinct from candied lemon peel. Rowan Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:47:40 -0700 (MST) From: grasse at mscd.edu Subject: Re: SC - Re: Limes Grettings again, I have another question before I try to answer further... If the Spanish (whom I would consider European) introduced the lime to the west Indies - where did they get it from? As promised I did some further rummaging in Rumpolt, as well as in Cerruti, Gerard, and some others. Rumpolt (as I am sure you are familiar with) has (in the section on sauces? - - have only had him 2 {filled with mundane and prior commitments} weeks, so I have not yet explored him fully) 2 recipes specific to Zitron and 1 for Limonien (I double checked the spellings he uses, my original spellings were in error.) In my translation I will use the word lemon, though for the argument one could also use the word citron - Marx does not speak of cooking either and I do not know if raw citron is (was?) palatable? #6 uses "breit geschnitten zitron mit weissem zucker bestrauet/ fein gut und wohl geschmack" (thick?) cut lemons sprinkled with white sugar/ fine good and well tasty. #7 uses "klein gehackt zitron mit weissem zucker der wohl gestossen ist abgemacht" small (finely) chopped lemon seasoned with well crushed white sugar. #23 states "nim saur frishe limonien wals gie das sie weich werden/ schneidt sie von einander und druck den saft herauss/ tue die kern davon/ mach ab mit zimmet und zucker/ so ists gut un wohlgeschmack/ du kanst auch solchen saft der lecker (?sorry can't read my scribbles this morning) ist sieden lassen mit gelautertem zucker un wen er fein dick gesotten so kan man zum braten brauchen My interpretation is (though for arguments sake insert lemon instead of lime if you wish) take sour limes, roll (I am guessing walg equates to welz - to roll- rolling on the counter ) so they become soft, cut them apart and squeeze the juice from them, remove the seeds, then season with cinnamon and sugar so that it is good and tasty. You can also also take such (tasty?) juice (before or after seasoning I can't tell) and simmer it with (gelaeutertem - another I'm not sure word) sugar and when it has become fine and thick so use it for a roast. I assume to accompany like a jelled sauce. I would love to experiment with the above recipies using lemons, limes and citrons, to see how they react and taste using his techniques, but I have no clue where in Denver (CO, US) to obtain fresh citron... My thought being that if fresh citron is inedible raw chopped with sugar then Zitron should equate to Lemon, but the cooked thickened stuff would probably taste well made with either lemon or lime, so it would probably not prove anything. (besides I still wouldn't know how it would taste with period grown lemons/citrons/limes...) The other thing that led me to make the equations I have made (Zitron = lemon; Limionen = lime) rather than Zitron = citron and Limione = lemon is that Limione =lemon is using English words; (the modern German is Zitrone = lemon; Limone/Limette = lime. ) Rumpolt is writing German, when he speaks of preparing Star he is not writing of cooking celestial bodies but of using starling - a small domestic song bird. Most of the ingredients he uses sound out into the modern German words. Certainly not definitive proof, but that is how I arrived at my assumption. I am not aware of a German OED (OGD??? ;-)) but if one is found I would be thrilled! I believe the main branch of the local library has some middle German reference books, and I will endeavor to visit them soon. Gwen-Cat Caerthe Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:37:39 -0700 From: Ronda Del Boccio <Serian at plinet.com> Subject: SC - Limes -- from EB Limes: Limes probably originated in the Indonesian archipelago or the nearby mainland of Asia. The Arabs may have taken limes, as well as lemons, from India to the eastern Mediterranean countries and Africa around AD 1000. Limes were introduced to the western Mediterranean countries by returning crusaders in the 12th and 13th centuries. Columbus took citrus-fruit seed, probably including limes, to the West Indies on his second voyage in 1493, and the trees soon became widely distributed in the West Indies, Mexico, and Florida. Copyright 1994-1998 Encyclopaedia Britannica Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:42:34 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: SC - Citrus Fruit History (long) I have just been reading the first chapter of a multi-volume work called _The Citrus Industry_, which goes into considerable detail about what the evidence is on what citrus fruit came into use when and where. This is a summary of its conclusions. The author of this chapter, Herbert John Webber, concludes that all citrus are native to southern Asia and the Malay Archipelago. Cultivated citrus go way back in China; the earliest mention he knows of concerns tribute (oranges and pummeloes) given to an emperor around 2200 B.C. A Chinese book on oranges written in 1178 A.D. describes some twenty-seven varieties of sweet, sour, and mandarin oranges, as well as kumquats and citrons. The citron seems to be the first citrus fruit known in the West, having become established in Persia by around 500 B.C. and spreading slowly around the eastern end of the Mediterranean from there. The Romans of the first century A.D probably grew citrons in the southern parts of Italy and knew of lemons and sour oranges, although it seems to be debatable whether or not they grew them. The collapse of the Roman empire seems to have left citrons growing, in part growing wild, in Sicily and southern Italy, and no other citrus surviving in Italy. The Arabs continued the spread of citrus fruit; by the 10th century the sour orange was known and there were references to importing new varieties from India, and by the 12th century lemon, sour orange, citron, and pummelo had all made it as far as Spain and North Africa. There is also a 12th mention of the pummelo in Palestine by a Christian pilgrim, and a 13th-century Arab reference to what is probably lime. By the 13th century lemon, sour orange, citron, and what is probably lime are described from northern Italy. The sweet orange is mentioned in a few documents from the second half of the 15th century as growing in Italy and southern France, and seems to have been fairly widely grown in southern Europe by the early 16th century. In 1520 or thereabouts the Portuguese brought a new and superior sweet orange variety from China, which then spread around the citrus-growing areas of Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries. Mandarin oranges do not seem to have made it to Europe until the early 19th century. The pummelo or shaddock, which is a thick-skinned citrus fruit about the size of a grapefruit, seems to have followed the same paths across Europe and the Arab world as the sour orange and lemon. It was introduced to the West Indies by the 17th century; the grapefruit, probably a mutation from the shaddock, is first mentioned in 1750 from Barbados. Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:44:38 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - Citrus Fruit History (long) Just a brief followup to Elizabeth's post. It turns out that both Citron and Sour Orange trees are still available, although not terribly common. I bought one of each today from a nursery in Fremont that specializes in citrus (I gather that the founder is the person responsible for developing the grafted dwarf citruses a few decades back). The citron is an Etrog--still used in Jewish ritual. The orange is a Seville Orange, still used for marmalade and (according to the tag) Middle Eastern cooking. So in a few years, if all goes well, we can make our naranjiya right. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:05:32 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - Citrus Fruit History (long) At 7:34 AM -0500 3/6/99, Tollhase1 at aol.com wrote: >Is this Fremont Ohio perchance, I could not get that lucky? I would love to >find out the size of oranges used in an apple orange tart. Just how >sweet/tart were period oranges? Fremont California, I'm afraid. But there is at least one source for both trees in California that is on the web and sells mailorder--Pacific Tree Farms at: http://www.kyburg.com/ptf/Default.htm The nursery where I got my trees gave me a sour orange from one of their trees. It weighs just under a quarter of a pound. I don't know how typical that is. I haven't tasted it yet, but I gather that they are too sour for eating out of hand, and used mostly for marmalade. What is the source for your apple orange tart recipe? If it is 16th or 17th century, it might be using sweet oranges. David Friedman Professor of Law Santa Clara University ddfr at best.com http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:02:55 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is> Subject: Re: SC - Oranges and "orange" - OT/(?)OOP Bear wrote: >It appears to have originally been a town and region in southeast France, >Orenge. >as to when it was first used to describe the color, I have no information at >present. According to The Gourmets Guide by John Ayto: "The Spanish naturalized naranj as naranja, but when the word penetrated further north to France in the late thirteenth century it became transmuted to orenge, later orange, perhaps partly undir the influence of the town of Orange, in southeastern France, a centre of the orange trade ... Orange is first recorded as a colour term in the sixteenth century." There is also some speculation that the term may have been influenced by the French word "or", gold. Mark Morton says in Cupboard Love: " ... what did the English call the colour orange before they adopted the word orange? To some extent, other colours did double duty: fire, for example, was described as being red. However, not much of this double-dutying was actually neccessary because in rainy, grey, medieval England orange was simply not a colour that commonly appeared in nature ... its little wonder that their vibrant appearance gave rise to a new colour name." I might add that orange was not a color frequently seen in rural Iceland in the early sixties, either. When we used it, even to describe the oranges we had about once a year, we called it "rau :gult" (red-yellow). I hardly ever heard the Icelandic term equivalent to orange ("appelsnugult", yellow-as-an-orange) until much later. So I can well believe that there was little need for a separate name for this color in medieval times. Nanna Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:42:14 +1000 From: "HICKS, MELISSA" <HICKS_M at casa.gov.au> Subject: SC - RECIPES: Orange Cakes from Fettiplace Lorix, > The recipe basically consisted of taking the > flesh of LOTS of oranges with an equal weight > of sugar, combining and then rolling into > little balls and baking. Ok, Fettiplace has the following (it also has a recipe for candied orange peel (do you want that one too?). Please advise if this is not the recipe you wanted. Meliora. To Make Cakes of Orenges Take some oringes & take out the meat of them, then pick them cleane from the white skins, & stamp them in a stone morter, very fine, then take away the iuice that is too much, & wey to a pound of the orenges a pound of the finest white sugar beaten very fine, & put it to your orenges, beating them all together a good while till they bee throughlie mingled, then take it out, & lay them upon plates, of what fashion you best like, but they must be very thin, then set them to drying, & when they bee half dry, turne them, they wilbee soone dry. Spurling's directions seem to be (I have occasionally paraphrased here): Peel the fruit carefully, removing all of the white pith, and discard the peel (or use in another recipe). Remove the pips, reduce the orange flesh to a paste in a stone mortar or electric mixer, and strain off any surplus juice. Weigh this paste and pound it again with an equal weight of white sugar. Pour the mixture onto a large flat plate and set in a warm place, turning it as soon as the top has dried out, so as to harden off the underside. Spurling adds that these taste especially delicious if you dry them off in a slow oven till they begin to brown and caramelize, when they can be rolled by hand into little balls or drops with a dark, burnt-orange taste to serve after dinner with coffee. Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:57:24 -0500 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - ETROG JELLY At 8:28 AM -0400 10/17/99, Seton1355 at aol.com wrote: >Jews have a holiday just like Thanksgiving called *Sukkot* (Festival of the >Booths) Anyway as part of the religious practices they use a fruit called an >etrog which looks almost exactly like a lemon. When the holiday is over, what >do you do with the very expensive lemon thingie?? You make Etrog Jelly .. Of >course! Here is a recipe I came across. The etrog is a variety of citron--the oldest (I think) of the citrus fruit. It was known in Europe throughout out period, and appears in the Andalusian cookbook. And I have one growing by my driveway--although, given how slowly citrus trees grow, it may be a while before it produces any fruit. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:54:24 -0000 From: nanna at idunn.is (Nanna Rognvaldardottir) Subject: Re: SC - Help for Novices Cadoc wrote: >Clementines are small oranges from California, I think, kinda like a >tangerine... Clementines are a tangerine/Seville orange hybrid which originated in Oran in Algiers around 1900 but were introduced into Florida in 1909 and California in 1914. They are named after the original grower, Father Clment. It has few seeds and is juicy and usually quite tasty. Nanna Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:00:31 -0600 From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com> Subject: SC - Re: SC- Tidbits Bluwlf17 at cs.com writes: << How period are lemons? Did they have citris trees in Europe? >> >In southern Europe, yes. I know lemons show up in Elizabethan recipes, and >oranges as early as the 15th century for northern Europe. >Brangwayna Morgan >According to Barbara Santich in _The Original Mediterranean Cuisine_, >citrus trees originated in India, and were introduced to Mediterranean >Europe by the Arabs. They were "reasonably common" in Italy by the >13th century. >Citrus fruits (and their juices) are most common in period recipes from >southern Europe, especially Spain and Italy. >Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Actually, lemons were a well known fruit in Roman times, imported from Asia minor. They never caught on in cooking of that time however; they were only used as decorative fruit. Probably there were a few instances of trees in southern Italy grown from seed, but they were likely curiousities and died out with the fall of Rome. Therefore, they were Re-introduced from the Arabic cultures, likely through Portuguese traders in the early 13th century. Lemons were grown in Persia in biblical times. Akim Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:18:56 -0500 From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net> Subject: Re: SC - Re: SC- Tidbits >>Citrus fruits (and their juices) are most common in period recipes from >>southern Europe, especially Spain and Italy. >>Lady Brighid ni Chiarain > >Actually, lemons were a well known fruit in Roman times, >imported from Asia minor. They never caught on in cooking >of that time however; they were only used as decorative fruit. >Probably there were a few instances of trees in southern >Italy grown from seed, but they were likely curiousities and >died out with the fall of Rome. Therefore, they were Re-introduced >from the Arabic cultures, likely through Portuguese traders in the >early 13th century. Lemons were grown in Persia in biblical times. My readings suggest that the reintroduction was also occuring via Sicily and Spain. Sicily after it was retaken by the Normans, Roger the Count and his son Roger the King, as a "prelude" to the first Crusade. By the way Ricard the Lionheart's sister was married to the King of Sicily. I have a recipe for very early 17th century lemonaid and a "sangria" type drink made with red wine, apples, and lemons. If anyone is interested I will supply the reference and the recipes. Daniel Raoul le Vascon de Navarre' Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:58:33 EST From: Aelfwyn at aol.com Subject: SC - Re:Juice of Sour Oranges The juice I mentioned for the _Medieval Kitchen_ recipe is in a 24oz. bottle. Labeled: GOYA Naranja Agria Bitter Orange marinade from concentrate. with a pretty picture of some oranges. Ingredients say: water, Seville orange juice concentrate, Seville orange pulp cells, preservatives....Now before folks can flame about this being a from concentrate product, please consider that some of us live in less than optimal food shopping areas. In 30+ years of grocery shopping in Maine I have never seen actual Seville oranges that I could buy and squeeze. Aelfwyn Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 23:29:18 -0400 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: Re: SC - Re: Jucie of sour oranges And it came to pass on 2 Apr 00,, that Aelfwyn at aol.com wrote: > We used the stuff straight from the bottle as if using the fresh juice. I just got hold of the Goya sour orange marinade. It says "from concentrate", and it does seem to be re-constituted to juice consistency. I found it more sour than the orange-lemon mixture that _The Medieval Kitchen_ recommends -- much closer to the lemon end of the spectrum. Nice stuff -- I am pleased to have learned about it. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 15:49:09 +1000 From: "Glenda Robinson" <glendar at compassnet.com.au> Subject: Re: SC - SAVILLE ORANGES > ALSO.... I did buy a tin of saville oranges. The can says just add 6 LB of > sugar and some water and you get orange marmalde. But if I don't want to > make marmalade, what else can I do with it? > Phillipa A tin of oranges? I think I'll leave it alone! However, Elinor Fettiplace has some recipes for lozenges/suckets called Cakes of Orenges Take some orenges & take out the meat of them, then pick them cleane from the white skins, & stamp them in a stone morter, very fine, then take away the juice that is too much, & wey to a pound of the orenges a pound of the finest white sugar beaten very fine, & put it to your orenges, beating them all together a good while till they bee throughlie mingled, then take it out, & lay them upon platesm of what fashion you best like, but they must bee very thin, then set them to drying, & when they bee half dry, turne them, they welbee soone dry. Best made, according to Hilary Spurling, with Seville oranges. Quite an easy recipe, by the looks. I'll be trying it for our route march (aka March or Die - 21km) in August (if I can get some sour oranges - hopefully fresh and not tinned - Australia has an amazing amount of really cheap fruit) Glenda. Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:23:04 -0400 From: "Ron Rispoli" <rispoli at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - pickled limes From: KallipygosRed at aol.com > I have a quest for your food list. I'm looking for a recipe for >pickled limes I haven't tried this yet, so let me know how it goes. I assumed this is how the British navy kept limes for the sailors. PICKLED LIMES from the gourmet cookbook (c) 1950 Select fully mature limes, just before they turn yellow. Scrape them throughly and rinse. Pack the fruit, without crushing, in all-glass containers to within 1 inch of the top and place a weight on top of the limes to prevent the fruit from rising in the pickling solution. At no time should the limes be exposed above the solution. Completely fill the jars with a brine of 3 tablespoons salt in 1 quart water. Adjust the rubber bands and tops on the jars, using only glass tops, and partially seal. As fermentation takes place and the liquid recedes, add more brine, keeping the jars full so that there will be no air space. The limes should be cured in 6 to 8 weeks. Seal the jars completely and store. The pickled limes may not retain their original color and may turn quite brown, but this does not affect their edibility. Kumquats and calamondins may be pickled in the same way. Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 19:47:56 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Re: non-messy, period, dayboard-type food > I'd agree with her as bitter oranges were developed earlier, or so I'm > told, and also they are easier to work with (less white pith). > > Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise Not developed earlier, but available via the Moors in Spain. The sweet Chinese orange appears to have arrived in Europe in the 15th Century with Portuguese spice trade. The first known arrival of oranges (from Spain) in England was about 1290 and early in the 14th Century they were being traded into France through Nice. Bear Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:49:11 -0700 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - TI Article - Support Kitchen At 1:26 PM -0400 9/11/00, LrdRas at aol.com wrote: >oranges (questionably period, perhaps very late), As far as I can tell, sweet oranges get to Europe a century or so before the end of our period. They are in use in China, of course, much earlier. Sour oranges are available for all the usual SCA period (i.e. everything after classical antiquity). Later Ras writes: >Orange slices are also period albeit >sweet oranges in Europe would have been somewhat late in SCA period >but perhaps not too out of time in the middle east Do you have evidence that sweet oranges got to the Middle East earlier? I'm pretty sure they were coming from China, so it is plausible enough, especially given the close ties between the Ilkhans and the Mongol rulers of China. - -- David/Cariadoc http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:52:20 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net> Subject: Re: SC - Seville Oranges (was Re: Protectorate Feast) Also, for the marmalade, I know that the Bakers Catalogue and sometimes Williams Sonoma sell MaMade Seville oranges canned just for marmalade! Kiri "Michael F. Gunter" wrote: > > Rather than settling for Valencias, may I recommend settling for > > bottled bitter orange juice? Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 00:51:14 -0600 From: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net> Subject: SC - Seville oranges In looking through a book I purchased today, "Mexican Cooking for Dummies", I noticed they gave this substitution for Seville Oranges. While it is better to have the real thing, sometimes you need to make a substitution, so I thought some might find this useful. 2 parts grapefruit juice 1 part orange juice 2 tablespoons lime juice While in World Market today I noticed they sold tubs that were for making Seville Orange Marmalade. The tub said it had everything needed but sugar. The tub listed Seville Orange juice but also had several thickeners in it, so I wasn't sure if it would work in the period recipes calling for Seville Orange juice or not. I will have to take more notes next time I'm in the store on the exact ingredients. The book also says about Seville Oranges "Also known as bitter oranges or naranja agria, this small fruit has thick, green, bumpy skin and is less juicy than an ordinary orange. Its potent sour juice replaces vinegar in typical Yucatecan marinades and seasoning pastes. Although bitter oranges are also found in Puerto Rico and Cuba [obviously an import from Spain], only Mexicans prize the juice more than the fleshy skin. At Mexican markets, the fruit is sold with the top layer of skin removed so that the bitter oils don't seep into the juice." What would you do with the skins? Make candied orange peel? I don't remember the Seville Oranges that I've bought fresh being green, although I would have said greenish orange rather than bright green. I wonder if you would pick them green if you were wanting to accentuate the sour taste? The ones I got were more "bumpy" than regular oranges which tend to have a smoother skin. - -- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas stefan at texas.net Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:58:17 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - period lime use, rosaries Stefan wrote: > Did you find any evidence of use of limes in period? Where and when? Our summary of the history of citrus in the Miscellany says: By the 13th century lemon, sour orange, citron, and what is probably lime are described from northern Italy. The source for that is: Batchelor, Leon D. and Webber, Herbert John, The Citrus Industry, 1946. But I can't swear to their exact words. I might be able to dig up our photocopy of the chapter if you want their source. - -- David Friedman ddfr at best.com http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 23:19:55 -0500 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: SC - period lime use, rosaries And it came to pass on 17 Jan 01, , that david friedman wrote: > Our summary of the history of citrus in the Miscellany says: > > By the 13th century lemon, sour orange, citron, and what is probably > lime are described from northern Italy. Herrera's agricultural manual (1513) specifically mentions limes in the citrus fruit chapter. Unfortunately, he doesn't go into much detail about their use, only that large limes and oranges can be preserved whole in a honey syrup. I haven't noticed any other references to limes in the Spanish/Catalan sources. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 23:34:59 -0500 From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net> Subject: Re: SC - period lime use, rosaries Was asked: >Did you find any evidence of use of limes in period? Where and when? Did >you find evidence of them used in beverages? From "The Illustrated History of French Cuisine" by Christian Guy, 1962 L of C Cat Number 62-15020. The most whimsical/outragous reference found for use of limes in period beverages. Sir Edward Kennels Punch 80 casks of brandy 9 casks of water 20,000 large limes 80 pints of lemon juice 13 quintals (1,300 pounds) of Lisbon sugar, 5 pounds of nutmeg 1 huge cask of Malaga wine (approximately equal to 100 regular casks at a guess) "It is written that on October 25, 1599, Sir Edward Kennel, Commander-in-Chief of British Naval forces, offered to those of his command and guests a mammoth punch which he had prepared in a huge marble basin on his estate. A platform was built over the basin to shield it from the rain and the beverage was served by a ship's boy who rowed around on the sea of punch in a rosewood boat. It is reported that to serve the 6,000 guests one ship's boy had to be replaced by another one the quarter hour over and over again as each boy rapidly became intoxicated by the fumes from the pond of punch." Daniel Raoul Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:10:24 -0500 From: "Richard Kappler" <rkappler at home.com> Subject: SC - period lime use Being of a nautical bent (okay, okay, so usually I'm just bent...) my first thought was to check for uses in combatting scurvy. A quick survey of my references provided the following (granted, its late/post period): "... [W]e have in our owne country here many excellent remedies generally knowne, as namely, Scurvy-grasse, Horse-Reddish roots, Nasturtia Aquatica, Wormwood, Sorrell, and many other good meanes... to the cure of those which live at home...they also helpe some Sea-men returned from farre who by the only natural disposition of the fresh aire and amendment of diet, nature herselfe in effect doth the Cure without other helps." At sea, he states that experience shows that "the Lemmons, Limes, Tamarinds, Oranges, and other choice of good helps in the Indies... do farre exceed any that can be carried tither from England." John Woodall (1556-1643), military surgeon to Lord Willoughby's regiment (1591), first surgeon-general to the East India Company (1612), surgeon to St. Bartholomew's Hospital (1616-1643). Excerpted from _The Surgeon's Mate_ , 1617. regards, Puck Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:11:36 -0600 From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com> Subject: SC - Orange-flower Water Greetings. Orange flower water is mentioned in some French recipes (IIRC) and some of the English material. I've used it in the milk leche (jellied milk cubes) and also in marzipan. Found a reference to using it in marzipan in someone's book in period. It's a bit of a "jolt" when one expects rose water, but I like it. Alys Katharine Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:31:26 -0500 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net> Subject: SC - Orange flower water It's used in some period Spanish recipes, though not nearly as often as rosewater. Nola puts it in a marzipan-and-chicken dish for invalids. Granado uses it in one of his recipes for bizcocho (biscotti). It appears in a lot of the perfume/cosmetic recipes in the Manual de Mugeres. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:19:05 +0200 From: "Jessica Tiffin" <jessica at beattie.uct.ac.za> Subject: Re: SC - Rose Water - now orange blossom water Ilia wrote: > >I was also considering picking up the orange blossom water that they > >have. Would it be useful in period cooking? Having just acquired Cariadoc's two-volume collection, and having spent a happy two weeks digging through Digby and the rest: orange blossom water is used in a fair number of English late period/Elizabethan biscuitty-style things. (I don't have the books with me so can't give specifics, but there were quite a few). Lady Jehanne de Huguenin * Seneschal, Shire of Adamastor, Cape Town (Jessica Tiffin, University of Cape Town) From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:36:43 -0400 Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period food myths On 6 Sep 2001, at 20:50, Laura C. Minnick wrote: > Sweet oranges are not period but bitter ones are Sweet oranges are (late) period for the Mediterranean area. There's a dinner menu for a Spanish archbishop (February 9, 1568) that begins with bread, wine, and sweet oranges. Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:55:06 -0400 From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] citrons Citron, citrus medica, has weak lemon flavor and a thick rind. Fruit may be as large as a foot to as small as big lemon in size. The rind is what is used today, although the Italians did squeeze it to produce a beverage known as acquacedrata in the 17th and 18th centuries. Native to NE India, spread to Persia by the 6th century BC, from there to Babylon, to Greece with the returning armies of Alexander. Early attempts to grow it in the Mediterranean failed, but by the 1st century AD they were being grown in Italy and Greece. An odd variety is grown in China where it arrived in the 4th century AD. It's called a Buddha's Foot and the fruit is divided into seperate lobes. There has long been a religious connection with the fruit and the Jewish Feast of the Tabernacles uses it. Apicius includes it in his work. It was important in early Arabic cuisine where the rind was used and eventually candied. It is grown today in Italy, Greece, Corsica, Morocco, Israel, and the U.S. It is the source of the candied citron used in fruitcake mixtures.[see Alan Davidson's The Oxford Companion to Food.] Johnnae llyn Lewis From: Seton1355 at aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:21:18 EDT Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] citrons To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Since we are talking about citrons, let me suggest that there is a type of citron, it looks like a lemon but is a tad larger and has a stem on both ends. This type of citron is called an etrog and is used during the holiday of Sukkot (Jewish Thanksgiving). Sukkot will come next month some time (calendar not handy) and if you are living near a big city they are bound to have a large Orthodox population and they would have citron/ etrog. Phillipa Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:45:05 -0500 From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Citrus Question Alan Davidson has two full pages devoted to oranges in The Oxford Companion to Food. He says that the original mutation that produced the distinctive color of the blood orange was probably 17th century in Sicily. He notes that Platina mentions both sweet and tart oranges in his writings. Johnna Holloway Johnnae From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: [Sca-cooks] oranges Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 13:11:12 -0500 > Information that I have places the reappearance of the orange in Europe in > the 10th century by the Arabs. I seem to remember that it may have been > introduced during Roman occupation by Jewish farmer/gardeners who were > dispersed throughout the Roman empire, but the orange seems to also have > been a victim of the fall of this empire. I do not have my documentation at > work. What other info is out there on this? > Judith The orange is believed to have been brought out of India or Persia by the Arabs following the Islamic Expansion. While there is reference to bananas and citrons by Nearchus, Alexander's general who invaded Northern India about 325 BCE, there is no reference to oranges. It was Nearchus who introduced the first citrus fruit into the Mediterranean Basin. There is no word for orange in either classic or medieval Latin. Old Italian uses the word "melarancio" ("mela" = "fruit" + "arancio" = "orange tree" from the Arabic "naranj") strengthening the idea of an Arabic origin. Other European languages originate in the Arabic form. Other than one mosaic (which may be an artist's error), there is nothing (to my knowledge) to suggest the Romans had oranges. Also, Pliny does not note them in his Natural History, which would have been the case if they were in use in the Mediterranean Basin prior to the 1st Century. For these reasons, I question any source which places oranges in the Roman Empire. Introduction of the orange by the Arabs could have been as early as the 8th Century or as late as the 12th for individual locales. Since the Arabs lost Sicily in 1091, their introduction of oranges to that island could have been no later than the 11th Century. As a general opinion, 10th Century is as good a date as any. Bear Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:20:16 -0500 From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Citron T: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Millham notes that with regard to the ancient sources that the fruit was the citron. With regad to what Platina is calling for, she notes on page 145 that he means probably the contemporary Italian fruit and that was the lemon. On pages 284-286 of Millham, the pork recipe (book vi, 28) calls for "citri vel" and she says orange or lemon juice. Thethrush recipe (book vi 29) calls for citra vel and again she says squeeze lemons or oranges. The recipe for partridges (book vi, 33) calls for "Succus citri aut malarantii" and she notes that in this case on page 287 that Platina apparently left out Martio's instructions that one might use also verjuice as an alternative to the orange and lemon that were suggested in the recipe. Millham's notes actually make sense when one looks at Martino and in checking versions of Martino, (I am using Benporat here beause the indexing makes it easy) the Rub #23[the pork]says "sugo de naranze o de limoni" p. 173. On that same page one finds that the Rub #24 [the thrush] calls for "sugo de pome ranze o limoni." The partridges which was book vi, recipe 33 in Platina are ound here as Rub 28 on page 174 where the phrase reads: "e uno pocho de pome ranze o limoni o de agresto". The Vat # 28 version [the pork] on page 96 says "di aceto sugo daranci ho limoni" on page 96. The Vat # 29 version [the thrush] on page 97 says "d aceto sugo di arancio ho di limoni." The partridges which was book vi, recipe 33 in Platina in the Vat mss are recipe 33 on page 97. What is called for here is: "e un pocho di sucho di pome aranci ho di limoni ho di agresto..." So yes Martino does call or orange or lemon or even verjuice as Millham says. Benporat, Claudio. Cucina Italiana del Quattrocento (1996) contains among other things the "Ricettatario di Maestro Martino Ms. Urbinate Latino 1203" here cited as the Vat. version and also the "Ricetrio di Maestro Martino, Riva del Garda, Archivio Storico here given as Rub. Hope this helps. Johnnae llyn Lewis >> Bear replied to me with: >> >>> Stefan, you can't infer that citron is actually being called for from >>> the >>> recipes in Platina. Hewas translating recipes from Italian into >>> Latin and >>> there are no Latin words for the various citrus fruits other than >>> citron >>> (which arrived in the Mediterranean basin in the 4th Century BCE). >>> The >>> recipes need to be compared to th original Italian recipes by >>> Martino >>> Rossi. I believe you will find the chicken recipe actually calls for >>> (Seville) oranges in the original. >> >> Yes, there is commentary in my file that covers this. But I'm not sure >> the info given thereis definative. At least not such that I wanted to >> keep this possible citron recipe from Anahita. That is one reason that >> I quoted both the Platina recipe and Millham's translation. In fact >> she >> says lemon or verjuice. So that gives three possile interpretatons, >> orange, lemon or citron. >> >> Stefan > > I'm a little busy getting ready for my last day of work, so I can't dig out > Milham, but as I recall, there is a footnote discussing the differences > between Martino's recipe and Platia's translation. As Platina is > copying > Martino's recipes, I would hold that Martino is the definitive source. > > Bear Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:09:30 -0500 From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Questions about de Nola To: mooncat at in-tch.com, Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Sue Clemenger wrote: > 3. Does anyone have an online or mail-order source for sour orange > juice? It's just *not* available up here.... > Thanks in advance, > Maire Goya products makes it. http://www.goya.com/english/products/product.html?prodSubCatID=11&prodCatID=4 http://www.goya.com/english/index.html You might contact them and see if anyone carries the products in your area. I have come across a number of substitute recipes. One calls for one half cup fresh juice, one quarter cup fresh grapefruit juice and one tablespoon fresh lime juice. This was labeled as best used fresh. Another called for one and one quarter cups fresh orange juice mixed with one quarter cup mild cider vinegar. I think the success of these would vary depending on what the original recipe was doing with the "bitter" orange juice. Johnnae llyn Lewis Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:21:14 -0500 From: "a5foil" <a5foil at ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Questions about de Nola To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> This is the formula we use to approximate Seville orange juice. We were lucky enough to get some bitter oranges to test, and this comes very close to the taste. It is actually important to use the canned juice, since it is much more sour than any kind of concentrate or refrigerated juice. And no, it doesn't taste good by itself, but it seems to give the right flavor in the recipes. 2 tablespoons unsweetened orange juice, preferably canned 2 tablespoons unsweetened grapefruit juice, preferably canned 2 teaspoons lemon juice, fresh or thawed frozen -- NOT ReaLemon 1/2 teaspoon orange zest 1 drop orange flower water, if possible Cynara Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:20:26 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Questions about de Nola To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org I can tell you from personal experience with actual Seville orange juice, that it tastes like a mix of orange, lemon, AND grapefruit. It is bitter - which the grapefruit adds, as well as sour - which the lemon adds - and orangey. I was making that famous de Nola salmon recipe and I happened to have fresh orange, fresh lemon, and fresh grapefruit handy, in case there wasn't enough Seville orange juice, so I did the experiment of tasting the Seville orange juice and then blending the other juices to approximate the flavor. In fact, lemon juice did not add enough sour - the Seville orange juice was pretty harsh - so lemon and orange alone do not replicate the flavor. The blend needs grapefruit for that necessary touch of bitter. What proportions? Well, I don't remember - it was more than a year ago - but I'd say start with equal quantities of each of the three. Anahita Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 10:27:36 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pomecitron To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> >> I am currently reading "Travels in Persia 1627-1629" by Thomas >> Herbert. In his descriptions of fresh fruits he frequently mentions >> the "pomecitron" - he also mentions "oranges" and "lemons" - >> apparently the oranges were sweet since he discusses eating them as >> is. I wonder if anyone has any idea what it is... >> >> Anahita >> > David Friedman wrote: > Could it just be a citron? Is he eating it straight, or is it used in > cooking? There are a couple of possiblities. One is that he is talking about the CITRON, which we candy the peel but don't really eat the fruit of today. Gerald talks about the "citron tree" in his text and then captions the illustration as "Malus medica The Pome citron." It is of a very pleasant smell and had a source juice. The other would be that he had encountered an Assyrian Apple which according to Gereald bore a pale yellow fruit that tasted sharp as a lemon. There would be an outside chance that it's a Pomelo too. Modern pomelos have been recrossed with grapefruits so they don't resemble the fruits of earlier times. In fact all the citrus varieties have been so much improved, it's hard to match up the fruits of today with what would have been growing wild then. Johnnae llyn Lewis Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:34:20 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pomecitron To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org I wrote: >> I am currently reading "Travels in Persia 1627-1629" by Thomas >> Herbert. In his descriptions of fresh fruits he frequently mentions >> the "pomecitron" - he also mentions "oranges" and "lemons" - >> apparently the oranges were sweet since he discusses eating them as >> is. I wonder if anyone has any idea what it is... >> >> Anahita David Friedman wrote: > Could it just be a citron? Is he eating it straight, or is it used in > cooking? Then Johnnae posted other possibilities. Let me note that Herbert isn't doing any cooking. He's travelling in a caravan through Persia with an Ambassador from England and an Englishman working for the Shah of Persia (both of whom die during the course of their travels). He mentions a number of fruits, the kinds that are, for the most part, eaten out of hand, although he includes lemons among them and comments on their pleasant taste. I don't recall him saying anything very specific about pomecitrons, just lists them. Anahita Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:42:14 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Seville orange substitutions To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org I was blessed to have real Seville Orange juice available (courtesy of Duquessa Dona Juana Isabella) when i cooked a Catalan recipe at the Mediterranean Tour Feast a year and a half ago. It tasted VERY much like orange juice mixed with grapefruit juice. Additionally it was VERY sour, at least as sour as lemon juice and possibly more so. So i'd mix the three - and less orange juice than the other two. At a previous German feast, in a sauce that required Seville Orange juice and a lot of sugar, i used Seville Orange marmalade diluted and strained. Anahita Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:17:53 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fried Oranges To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org OK, i found this recipe on a website with recipes for a feast held in memory of Marion Zimmer Bradley, known in the SCA as Mistress Elfrida of Greenwalls. http://www.nmia.com/~ariann/mzbfeast.htm The posters (who were on this list at one time, IIRC) got it from Fabulous Feasts, one which i do not own and which i've heard is a questionable source. Does anyone have any idea what actually period recipe this is based on, if any? Anahita <http://www.nmia.com/~ariann/mzbrecipes.htm> Fried Valencia Oranges Posted by Brian L. Rygg or Laura Barbee-Rygg (rygbee at montana.com). Found it in Fabulous Feasts- Medieval Cookery and Ceremony by Madeleine Pelner Cosman ISBN 0-8076-0832-7. No documentation, but very tasty. 4 large seedless eating oranges 4 Tbl brown sugar 1/8 tsp nutmeg l/8 tsp mace 1/4 tsp cinnamon 1 C flour 1 1/2 tsp baking powder 1/4 tsp salt 3 Tbl brown sugar 1 C oil for sauteing 1 raw egg 1/2 scant C milk Garnish 4 Tbl mustard 4 Tbl brown sugar Carefully peel the Oranges and Separate the sections. Strew on mixed sugar, nutmeg, mace, and cinnamon. Prepare a thick batter by uniting the flour, baking powder, salt, and brown sugar. Blend 2 Tbl of oil, the egg, well beaten, and the milk. Thoroughly stir this liquid into the dry mixture. If the batter is thin, add a scant amount more of flour. If it is too thick to evenly coat the orange sections, then dilute with more milk. Chill batter for 1-1/2 hours. Heat the remaining oil in a heavy skillet until hot, not smoking. Dip orange sections in batter to coat thoroughly. Drop into hot oil and fry until nicely browned. Serve warm with mustard and brown sugar in Separate spice dishes. Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:29:49 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fried Oranges To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Cosman titles the recipe Valencye. Historically, this is very suspect. Cosman is presumably working primarily from 15th Century sources, but chasing down actual sources can be very tricky. Cosman also is notorious for not specifying original source and her recipes are modern adaptations rather than careful recreations (please note the very modern baking powder in the recipe). This is an orange fritter recipe of the sort I would expect from the 15th Century Italian cooks, but I don't recall seeing anything similar (and I'm researching a 15th Century Italian feast at present). Perhaps someone else has come across it in an original source. Another strike against the recipe is that it calls for Valencia oranges. The first sweet oranges were introduced into Europe by the Portuguese in the early 16th Century (a couple of <suspect> sources date the introduction in 1529). Bear Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:48:20 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re:sweet oranges To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org With regard to the questions posed by Anahita as regards oranges and the recipe in Fabulous feasts, my notes show that there was a sweet orange available in Europe prior to 1500. Louis XI of France sent for "sweet oranges" during his reign and Platina also mentions that some oranges are tart and some sweet. No idea as to where Cosman got her original idea for the recipe. There was a later introduction of another larger sweeter, orange by the Portuguese in the 1520's too as Bear notes. Johnnae Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:32:21 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re:sweet oranges To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Platina is 1475 and Louis XI reigned 1461-1483, so that places some kind of sweet orange in Europe during the latter half of the 15th Century. But no idea of whether these were hybrids, imports or some varietal that had been around for a while. IIRC, there was an orange market in Nice in the early 1400's, which might tie in nicely to sweet varietals. Sweet oranges being mentioned in European literature before sweet oranges are supposed to have arrived. Obviously there is an error in the arrival date commonly quoted. What a delicious conundrum! And then there is the problem of the derivation of the Valencye recipe. This could be fun. Bear Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:46:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: sweet oranges To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Perhaps this will help? http://www.aquapulse.net/knowledge/orange It does mention that sweet oranges were depicted on a mausoleum erected by Constantine. Gianotta Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:59:03 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: sweet oranges To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> AFAIK, you can't tell, although it might be possible for a botanist to make some kind of determination if there are also accurate illustrations of leaf and flower. IIRC, this site has a good references, but they are all modern texts. Since the authors of the site appear to be depending on others to do their basic research, it may be that they are confusing fact and speculation. In general, the work looks good, but I do want to chase some of the information back to primary sources. Some other questions I have are: where is this mausoleum, when was it built, what is its history, and how can we be certain that the drawing of the orange is comtemporary to the construction? Bear > But how on earth would we know that they were sweet oranges, instead of > bitter ones? > > Cynara > >> http://www.aquapulse.net/knowledge/orange >> >> It does mention that sweet oranges were depicted on a mausoleum >> erected by Constantine. >> >> Gianotta Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:07:58 -0400 From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] To the