fruit-apples-msg - 9/8/02


Period apples and apple recipes.


NOTE: See also these files: fruit-msg, fruit-citrus-msg, fruit-melons-msg,

fruit-pears-msg, fruit-quinces-msg, vegetables-msg, desserts-msg.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at:


I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given by the individual authors.


Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at



From: storm at hlafdig.stonemarche.ORG (Arastorm the Golden)

Date: 23 Oct 91 16:01:04 GMT


        We planted a "period apple tree" several years ago in a flush

of agrarian authenticity. It is producing now. In my opinion the

Gilliflour (which can be traced back to 1600, and was brought to

this country by T. Jefferson) is no where near as good as...

         We live in apple country. A local farm grows 52 variety of

apples and I have tasted more than half of them. My favorite apples

(depending on use) include Cortlands, Northern Spys, McCoons,

Granny Smiths and Red Delicious. It does not include Gillyflours.

The flavor is mild, too sweet, and the pulp is mushy.

        Sometimes paintings show period fruits. Oranges used to be

half white membrane. According to National Geographic, beets were

solely a leaf crop until the last century. Carrots were also small

enough so that we should really not serve anything but "baby carrots"

at events.

        Remember, the reason that venison was prized was because the

herds were protected, and beef cattle were worked. Food ain't what it once

was, and for this we should be intensley grateful for the hard work

and dilligence of our ancestors.

        By the Way- has anyone got a source for the appropriate pine bark

to grind up and put in one's pease bread?   Arastorm



From: David.Calafrancesco at (David Calafrancesco)

Date: 22 Apr 97 23:30:58 -0500


      Title: Appulmoy

Categories: 14th cent., Fruit

      Yield: 50 servings

     30 c  Apples                          1 1/2 c  Flour, rice

     24 c  Water                           1 1/2 c  Honey

      4 c  Almond milk                         3 ts Salt

     18 ea Saffron, threads              


- --------------------------------POWDER FORT--------------------------------

    3/4 ts Pepper                              3 ts Cinnamon

      3 ts Ginger                              3 ts Cloves

    "Curye on Inglysch," edited by Constance B. Hieatt and Sharon Butler.

     Oxford University Press, 1985. pg.116 #81, from "Forme of Cury."


    Appulmoy. Take apples and seep hem in water; drawe hem thurgh a

  straynour. Take almaunde mylke and hony and flour of rys, safroun and

  powdour fort and salt, seep it stondyng.


    Redaction by Oksana Goncharova:


    Appulmoy. Take apples and boil them in water; draw them through a

  strainer. Take almond milk and honey and flour of rice, saffron and powder

  fort and salt, and boil it standing.


    Redaction instructions:


    Peel and chop apples. Cook the apples in water until tender. Drain the

  excess water. Add almond milk ( to make almond milk ; take blanched

  almonds and chop them up in a mini chopper or food processor. Take the

  chopped almonds and put them in a blender, using liquify,

   and mix water in a little at a time. I use a ratio of about 1/8 th cup of

  almond to about 1 cup of water.) Add crushed saffron (take some of the

  almond milk and crush the threads of saffron in a morter and pestle, with

  the milk.) Add rice flour, honey, salt and powder fort. Simmer over low

  heat, stirring frequently, until mixture has thickened.

    This recipe can be made more spicy by adding more of the powder fort, if

  you like, my husband enjoys that, I have weaker tongue tolerance.

    This recipe takes about 15 min. to make a 3 cup batch (8) servings.

- -----

Haraldr Bassi, Frosted Hills, East

haraldr at


Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:39:13 -0400 (EDT)

From: LrdRas at

Subject: Re: SC - apples


<< Anyone have any period apple treats that I can make up for the fighters

>to take to "Not Necessarily Pointless War" this weekend?  >>


How about Apple Moyle? It is basically a type of rice pudding with apples in

it. The recipe is in "Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books".





Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:37:16 -0400

From: marilyn traber <margali at>

Subject: Re: SC - apples


LrdRas at wrote:

> << or, depending on ingredient proportion and emphasis, applesauce

>  thickened with rice flour, and sometimes eggs. >>


> This is in fact the version I use. Basically it's a baked custard with

> lots of apple sauce


> Ras


Take a large can of pears in syrup, drain and reserve the heavy syrup.

Give the pears a whirl in a blender, adding just enough juice to make it

pearsauce. Use in place of the pumpkin in a pie recipe. Pour a puddle of

whole cream on the surface when it is about half done.





Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:07:06 -0400 (EDT)

From: Philip E Cutone <flip+ at>

Subject: Re: SC - Honey Apples


Steve Geppert <emster at> writes:

> Looking for something to do with a bag of "older" apples I had on the


> I couldn't seem to find anything similar. Is this something that could

> be period?  It would be a great traveling dish as it can be served


Well, The Domestroi has a listing for "Kirzamin apples" (not sure of

the first word) which was simply apples (whole) put in a container with

honey on them until the apples became soft (i think... i'm going from

memory here) There were almost certainly some acetic fermentaion that

went on inside the apples before th osmatic pressure of the honey made

a preserved fruit.... so we have apples, honey, and most likely

vineger... but no cooking...  There were several other recipies for

cooking fruit with the addition of honey... i'll try to remember and

look to see if vinegar was used in any of them..


In Service to the People of the Society,

Filip of the Marche



Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:49:46 EST

From: melc2newton at (Michael P Newton)

Subject: Re: SC - Honey Apples


On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:00:44 -0800 Steve Geppert <emster at> writes:

>Looking for something to do with a bag of "older" apples I had on the

>counter, I stumbled on a Honey Apple recipe in my Joy of Cooking.  The

>recipe is simply honey, vinegar brought to a boil. The apples are pared

>and thinly sliced and dropped into the mixture and removed when

>transparent.  As my medieval cooking library is in its birthing stages,

>I couldn't seem to find anything similar. Is this something that could

>be period?  It would be a great traveling dish as it can be served

>chilled or hot.  It was also a hit with my children, none left on the

>table after dinner!


>Lady Clare

>(settling in for the long Alaskan winter, snow on the ground already!)


I know I'm answering an old message, but I was clearing out my inbox and

this reminded me of a couple of recipes I came across in _The Domostroi_.


Kuzmin apples. Take whole apples, not bruised, nor wormeated. Place them

on racks, one layer per rack. Pile the racks on top of one another, then

pour three measures of honey syrup over all.


Ripe Apples and quinces. Put ripe apples and quinces which are clean and

unbruised in crates inside small buckets, five quinces per apple. arrange

them with your hands. Pour four measures of honey syrup over them. When

you cover the bucket, leave space for a funnel so that air can escape as

the mixture ferments.


I have no idea if this is anywhere close to what Lady Clare was looking

for, but there it is.

Lady Beatrix of Tanet



Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:15:16 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at>

Subject: Re: SC - Grape juice inquiry


>Now, would somebody give me a comercial source for apples that are a period

>type, grown without pesticides or commercial fertilizer.


There is a firm called AppleSource--I don't know if they are on the web

yet. They sell a wide variety of apples, including, I am fairly sure, some

of the period ones, by mail.


Alternatively you can get trees from quite a lot of nurseries--you will

find an article on that subject in the _Miscellany_. My problem is that I

keep moving, and leaving my trees behind. Hopefully, since things grow fast

here, I will at least get to enjoy the greengage plum I planted when we






Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:04:12 EST

From: LrdRas <LrdRas at>

Subject: SC - Apples


liontamr at writes:


<< Small, round, red and hard (not to mention hardy).  Less sweet (see large

amounts of sugar added to them for preservation). As for substitutes, I'd go

for the bags of cooking macs, ida reds or some such, which are smaller, have

better flavor than the enormous ones, and more closely mimic a period sized

apple.  >>


Pippins are the fruit grown from an apple tree grown from an apple seed as

opposed to those grown from sports or other grafted stock. They are, indeed,

smaller and less sweet than most currently available commercial so-called



I would suggest adding to your list of varieties that might be tried

Northern Spyes or, if possible, crab apples specifically grown for juice if you want to come closest to a period-like flavor.  Almost all commercial varieties of apple have been bred to make the taste less complex, less acidic, sweeter

and unobjectionable to the majority of people, thereby producing insipid,

flavorless ghosts of good tasting apples.  And there are varieties of apples

still grown now that were grown during the middle ages. These would of course

be the best to use and though not generally found for sale commercially are

readily available as saplings from some specialty plant growers.


If buying commercially, most reputable supermarkets will allow you to taste

test your apple before buying it.  Look for a balance between acid and sweet,

tangy, pineapple, strawberry, clove taste with a complex variety of flavors

underneath, crispness, refreshing and lingering finish.


If you have a piece of land and web access, a search engine of apple should

get you started in your search for period apple trees. :-)





Date: 16 Jan 1998 08:35:01 -0800

From: "Marisa Herzog" <marisa_herzog at>

Subject: Re: SC - Fruits


<snip>- I read or was told by someone (wish I could remember) that Pippins

referred to a specific type of apple which is no longer available. Anyone

know if this is true? If so, what is the best <snip>


I am not sure about the rest, but Pippins are still sometimes available in the

grocery store, tho they seem to be being pushed out by Fujis and Braeburns

that are bigger.

- -brid



Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:15:04 -0500

From: Margritte <margritt at>

Subject: SC - A Paste of Pippins


Consider the following two recipes:


To make Paste of Pippins, the Geneva fashion, some with leaves, some like

Plums, with stalks and stones in them.

Take your Pippins, and pare them and cut them in quarters: then boil them

in faire water till they be tender; then straine them and dry the pulp upon

a chafindish of coales: then weigh it, and take as much sugar as it

weigheth, and boile it to Manus Christi, and put them together: then

fashion them upon a Pieplate and put it into an Oven being very sleightly

heat: the next Morning you may turne it, and put them off the plates upon

sheets of Paper upon a hurdle, and so put them in an Oven of like heat, and

there let them remain foure or five dayes, puting every day a Chafindish of

coales into the Oven: and when they be thorow dry you may box them, and

keepe them all the yeare.

A Closet for Ladies and Gentlewomen or The Art of preserving, conserving

and candying, printed for Arthur Johnson, 1608.


To make Paste of Pippins like leaves, and some like Plums, with their

stones, and Stalks in them.

Take Pippins pared and cored, and cut in pieces, and boiled tender, so

strain them, and take as much Sugar as the Pulp doth weigh, and boil it to

a Candy height with as much Rose-water and fair water as will melt it, then

put the pulp into the hot sugar, and let it boil until it be as thick as

Marmalet, then fashion it on a Pyeplate, like Oaken leaves, and some like

half Plums, the next day close the half Plums together; and if you please

you may put the stones and stalks in them, and dry them in an Oven, and if

you will have them look green, make the paste with Pippins are green, and

if you would have them look red, put a little Conserves of Barberries in

the Paste, and if you will keep any of it all the year, you must make it as

thin as Tart stuff, and put it into Gallipots.


A Queen's Delight or The Art of Preserving, Conserving and Candying,

printed for Nathaniel Brook, 1654. Both of these books are available on

microfilm, in the "English Books: 1641-1700" series.


OK, here come the questions  :-)


- - Do I use cheesecloth to strain the apples?

- - Should they fall apart (applesauce consistency)?

- - The first recipe calls for drying the pulp before weighing it. How dry

should it be? Surely not completely...

- - I could understand if it was oak leaves and acorns, but _plums_!?? Why


- - When the half plums are put together, are you using real stalks and

stones from plums, or ones made of marzipan, or what?

- - Just how thin is tart stuff?

- - What were gallipots usually made of?

- - Has anyone seen recipes elsewhere for similar confections (especially

ones mentioning oak leaves)?


Thanks for any help you can give.


- -Margritte



Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 17:48:51 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at>

Subject: Re: SC - Fruits


At 8:35 AM -0800 1/16/98, Marisa Herzog wrote:


>I am not sure about the rest, but Pippins are still sometimes available in the

>grocery store, tho they seem to be being pushed out by Fujis and Braeburns

>that are bigger.



There are several varieties known as "pippen": Cox's Orange Pippen is a

famous variety from (I think) the 18th century.  Newtown Pippen is a

variety they sell around here, sometimes under its full name and sometimes

just as Pippen.  It is a hard medium-sized green apple, a little tart, good

both for pies and for eating out of hand.  How close it is to a period

pippen I don't know.


Southmeadow Fruit Gardens, 2363 Tilbury Place, Birmingham, Michigan 48009,

as of several years ago, had an enormous collection of old fruit varieties,

with a catalogue which cost $5 or $10 and was very much worth it as

information about old varieties.


Elizabeth/Betty Cook



Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 16:02:24 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at>

Subject: Re: SC - A Paste of Pippins


Margritte quoted a couple of recipes for Paste of Pippens:

>To make Paste of Pippins like leaves, and some like Plums, with their

>stones, and Stalks in them.

>Take Pippins pared and cored, and cut in pieces, and boiled tender, so

>strain them, and take as much Sugar as the Pulp doth weigh, and boil it to

>a Candy height with as much Rose-water and fair water as will melt it, then

>put the pulp into the hot sugar, and let it boil until it be as thick as

>Marmalet, ...


I am fairly sure that marmelade (which, I believe, comes from a Portugese

word meaning quince) meant at this time not the citrus jam we now use the

word for but instead meant quince paste.  My sister Johanna used to make

quince paste out of a modern recipe in a book by (I think) Elizabeth David;

it came out as a stiff brown paste of a similar consistancy to fudge or to

medieval gingerbread, if you have made that. I think there is a recipe for

marmelade or quince paste in Hugh Platt's _Delights for Ladies_ (160?) that

would give you another recipe to compare, quinces being closely related to

apples; I can hunt up the recipe and type it in if you would like.


Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook



Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:53:22 -0600 (CST)

From: alysk at (Elise Fleming)

Subject: SC - Re: A Paste of Pippins


Greetings.  One line of Elizabeth's post drew my attention:


>I am fairly sure that marmelade (which, I believe, comes from a

>Portugese word meaning quince) meant at this time not the citrus jam

>we now use the word for but instead meant quince paste.


I went hunting through a few cookery books and found that, indeed, most

of the pre-1600 ones, when titled "marmelat" or some spelling variant,

used only quinces.  What was bothering me was that only yesterday I had

run across a number of marmelades made with fruit _other_ than quinces,

though those were in the late 1600s.  So, somewhere along the way, the

main ingredient changed.  I did find, however, in Thomas Dawson's 1597

_The Second Part of the Good Hus-wives Jewell_, "To make drie Marmelet

of Peches".  So, the transformation from quince-only to other fruit was

apparantly already underway.  From the recipe, however, this is a

fruit-leathery-paste type of thing that can be "printed" with a mould,

not the gloppy consistency of marmalade that we are used to.


Alys Katharine



Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:09:21 -0400 (EDT)

From: Jeff Berry <nexus at>

Subject: SC - Between two dishes ...


A short while ago I did a small feast here in Whyt Whey

and one of the recipes I used was "To Stew Apples" from

Digbie.  Though the recipe was pretty straightforward, the

penultimate line was less so.

"You stew these between two dishes."


I am not quite certain what to make of this.   On the one hand,

might it be a bain-Marie or double boiler?  On the other, could

it be simply a covered pot?


At any rate, the whole recipe is included below.



"Pare them and cut them into slices. Stew them with Wine and Water

as the Pears, and season them in like manner with Spice. Towards the

end sweeten them with Sugar, breaking them into Pap by stirring them.  When

you are ready to take them off, put in good store of fresh-butter and

incorporate it well with them, by stirring them together. You stew

these between two dishes.  The quickest Apples are the best."


Alexandre Lerot d'Avigne


PS. For those who are interested, the entire menu as well as the article

series related to it are on my cooking site at - and yes, that is a more or less

blatant plug:-)



Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:29:48 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at>

Subject: Re: SC - Between two dishes ...


> a short while ago I did a small feast here in Whyt Whey

> and one of the recipes I used was "To Stew Apples" from

> Digbie.  Though the recipe was pretty straightforward, the

> penultimate line was less so.

> "You stew these between two dishes."


> I am not quite certain what to make of this.   On the one hand,

> might it be a bain-Marie or double boiler?  On the other, could

> it be simply a covered pot?


That sounds like a reference to a chawfer or chafing dish, which is

essentially a small brazier of charcoal, in which sits a roughly

similarly-sized inner cooking plate, which can be used covered or

uncovered. Cooking between two dishes would most likely be using this

type of setup.




> Alexandre Lerot d'Avigne



Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:27:59 -0700

From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at>

Subject: Re: SC - Between two dishes ...


I would interpret this to mean a covered dish, as a bain marie is not

between two dishes, but on top of two dishes :). The results would be very

different, as the former would conserve moisture and the later would not.


good luck!

- --Anne-Marie



Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:51:05 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Apple Butter Update


> Can anyone out there spare me the time to tell me anything about the

> history of Apple Butter?


> Micaylah


There is a recipe for Appulmoy in The Forme of Cury, which I have seen

adapted as applesauce.  It uses honey as sweetener rather than the sugar

called for in modern recipes.


Since the chief difference between modern applesauce and modern apple butter

is the amount of sugar used, being heavy handed with the honey might get you

apple butter.


I haven't tried either recipe, so I can't tell you what will happen.





Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 07:49:38 -0600

From: upsxdls at

Subject: Re[2]: SC - Apple Butter Question


     My recipe for any fruit butter - apple, pear, peach, apricot, etc.


     Apple (I use Red Delicious or Winesap, they mush easier) Butter,

     Peel and core apples.  Place in a heavy pan with just enough water to cover

     the bottom of the pan.  Cover and simmer until fruit softens.  Mash with

     potato masher.  Measure mashed fruit.  Add an equal amount of sugar.  Cook

     over low heat, stirring occasionally.  If I want to add spices, I usually

     use whole cinnamon sticks and cloves wrapped in a cheesecloth bag.  If you

     use ground spices, it will turn the mixture dark.


     Pear is done the same way, but ginger is the usual spice.  Peaches &

     apricots do not have to be peeled, but should be run through a food mill to

     remove the skins before measuring.  I don't add spices to the peach or

     apricot butters.  They're too wonderful all by themselves!


     Leanna McLaren of Sparrowhaven



Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 02:17:18 EDT

From: Kallyr at

Subject: Re: SC - cider apples


Golden Russet is a period cider apple which is still grown and highly

regarded.  Another is Ashmead's Kernel (also russeted) which was introduced in

the 1700's as a cider apple.  (Russets are brownish gold rough spots on the

skin of apples.)


Various modern pippins are descendants of pippins highly regarded as cider

apples, such as the Ribston Pippin (also know as Essex Pippin, Glory of York)

considered to have originated in Yorkshire, England around 1700.


Information from Fruit, Nut and Berry Inventory, Second Edition by Kent Whealy

(Decorah, Iowa: Seed Saver Publications, 1993).


~~Minna Gantz/ Sherry <KALLYR at AOL.COM>



Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 22:47:15 -0700

From: david friedman <ddfr at>

Subject: RE: SC - cider apples


At 2:27 PM +0100 6/29/98, Yeldham, Caroline S wrote:

>There is a place that 'stores' all the old apple varieties it can, but I

>don't have details; I would suggest contacting someone like Kew Gardens

>(which has a seed library) or the Royal Horticultural Society.  The

>Henry Doubleday Research Society (?) might be able to help too.


In the USA, Southmeadow Fruit Gardens (2363 Tilbury Place, Birmingham,

Michigan 48009) sells a huge variety of old apples and other fruits, and

has a very knowlegable and informative catalogue which cost $10 as of a few

years ago.  Clearly one of the people who runs the place is an enthusiast.


Elizabeth/Betty Cook (gradually catching up on the list)



Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 20:48:37 EDT

From: LrdRas at

Subject: Re: SC - sc-pears and rambling


uther at writes:

<<  What kind of apples and pears should I use to get the kind of results the

medieval cook would have gotten?  Hopefully something I can find at a supermarket in East Texas? >>


Apples are problematical since every individual seed produces a new variety of

apple. The best thing to use , IMO, would be an apple that has FLAVOR. Most

modern apples sold at the supermarket and specifically bred with Everyman in

mind. This means that they are  almost exclusively tasteless odorless and

without distinctive character. :-(


Avoid apples that have the word 'Delicious' in their varietal name. They are,

without a single exception,  NOT delicious and have all the characteristics

that the apple industry says Everyman desires. They are also mealy and

oftentimes bitter or coyingly sweet.


There are apple varieties that are  period, such as Pippins, but they are

rarely available on the commercial level. For great taste and complexity of

lavor I wold personally recommend Northern Spys or Granny Smiths. Northern

Spys have a flavor that is reminiscent of tangy pineapple, strawberries and

citrus. They are nicely balanced between sweet and sour and hold up there

shape during the baking process. They are crisp and juicy when raw if they

have not been stored for a lengthy period of time.


Granny Smiths are the second variety I would choose if period varieties or

Spys are unavailable. They also have some complexity in flavor although not

nearly as much as Spys ro the period varieties. They also have a nice balance

between sweet and sour, are not mealy and have a crisp texture when eaten raw

and a refreshing finish when eaten raw or cooked.


Pears, for the most part have been little disturbed by the hand of modern man.

The best cooking varieties are hard and crisp. These qualities endear them to

commercial shippers so a good portion of the pears available in the supermarket

are varieties which were also grown in period. Look for pears that are hard

when selecting cooking pears. The name may contain terms like 'winter' or

'fall' pears. Or ask your grocer which pear is ideal for cooking.





Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:18:58 +1000 (EST)

From: The Cheshire Cat <sianan at>

Subject: SC - Apple Mousse


Hannah Thomas wrote:

> Does anyone have any good recipes for apples?  There are a thousand on

> our trees, and I can only make so much apple sauce! These appear to be

> baking apples (they don't taste that good when you eat them plain).


Try this:


Apple Mousse:


'A Prpoer Newe Book of Cokerye'


To make Apple Moyse:  Take a dozen apples and ether roaste or boyle them

and drawe them thorowe a streyner, and the yolkes of three or foure egges

withal, and, as ye stryne them, temper them wyth three or foure sponefull

of damaske water yf ye wyll, than take and season it wyth suger and halfe a

dysche of swete butter, and boyle them upon a chaffyngdysche in a platter,

and caste byskettes or synamon and gynger upon them and so serve them forth.


My Redaction:


700g apples

45ml water

2 egg yolks

30ml rosewater

2 Tbs sugar

25g butter

ground ginger and cinnamon to finish


Peel, core and slice the apples, and stew them with the water until soft in

a heavy, covered saucepan.  Make the apples into a smooth puree by pressing

it through a sieve or using a blender.  Return the puree to the saucepan,

stir in the egg yolk beaten with the rosewater, then the sugar and the

butter and slowly heat to boiling point stirring continuously.  Pour the

puree into a dish and allow to cool.  To finish, sprinkle with a little

ground ginger and cinnamon.


- -Sianan

Marina Denton



Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 12:37:04 PDT

From: "pat fee" <lcatherinemc at>

Subject: Re: SC - Period Scottish Dessert


>From: "Brian L. Rygg or Laura Barbee-Rygg" <rygbee at>

> > Yes I have recipes for Scotts shortbread(cookie like) a fruit puding,

> > and apples baked with honey, currents  and wiskey(possibly oop)

> > Lady Katherine McGuire


>Recipes, please.



>Stan Wyrm, Artemisia

>rygbee at


  This is the "modern " version, in modern english.  If you want the

original, I can get it but not this week.  I expect my cook book back

sometime next week.


   Apples baked in Scotch


four to six good sized apples.

1 large hand-full currents (1 cup aprox.)

1/2 cup good honey (I use wild flower)

Enough Scotch to cover the currents when placed in a small bowl.

1/2 cup of chopped nuts of your choice.  Hazelnuts, toasted work well.

  Soak the currents in the Scotch for at least 12 hours. Drain the currents

and set aside.  Warm the honey and add the remaining Scotch from the

currents. Gently simmer the honey and scotch until it thickens to a heavy

syrup consistency.

Cut small slice off the top of the apples, core.

Mix 1/2 the nuts and the currents.  Stuff the apples with this mixture

Place in an iron baking dish (this is what the original calles for) just

large enough to hold the apples touching each other.  Pour the syrup over

the apples, making sure that some goes over the stuffing and wetting it.

Bake for one hour at 350 degrees.  The first part of the hour cover the

apples.  After this, remove the cover and sprinkle the apples with the

remaining nuts.


This can be served on rounds of pound cake or sweet biscuits.


Lady Katherine McGuire



Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 17:28:17 -0700

From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at>

Subject: Re: SC - Period Kinds of apples/Pears


>       Just wondering what kind of apples we find in the grocery store

>would be closest to a period apple.

>       And while I am asking, what about pears too?


Funny you should ask... We are planting an orchard and are including a few

varieties that date back to the SCA period!


For Apples, all of the grocery-store varieties are modern. The variety

"Court Pendu Plat" (or "Corps Pendu") is supposed to date from at least

the 1590's and may actually be derived from the old Roman variety called

Sementinum... according to one of the catalogs.  I think at least one

reference claimed that "White Winter Pearmain" was originally a 13th

century variety.   And Frank Browning mentions in his book "Apples,"  that

the rootstock variety now know as "M9" is actually derived from the

"Paradise" apple that was popular from the 13th century; it was supposed to

be a small yellow apple.


To approximate medieval culinary apples, you would need to find an orchard

growing the old vintage varieties.  Or, you could use crabapples - I

recommend the Whitney Crab; small yellow fruit with red stripes, sweet and

tangy fresh.  About the closest thing in the grocery store, if they have a

really good selection, would be a Pippin.


For pears, it's a little easier:  The variety known as Bartlett in America

is called "Williams Bon Chretien" in England and "Bon Chretien" in France,

and it supposedly is very ancient, possibly late medieval or Early Modern.

(It was brought to England in about 1700 by a guy named WiIliams, but it

had apparently been growing in France for a very long time.)


"Apples, the story of the fruit of temptation" by Frank Browning, North

Point Press, 1998. ISBN 0-86547-579-2.  Has a great discussion of the

origin and history of apples.


Get the Sonoma Antique Apple Nursery catalog for descriptions of vintage




Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:52:19 -0500

From: david friedman <ddfr at>

Subject: Re: SC - Period Kinds of apples/Pears


At 1:45 PM -0700 10/27/99, Schumacher, Deborah (AZ15) wrote:

>       Just wondering what kind of apples we find in the grocery store

>would be closest to a period apple.

>       And while I am asking, what about pears too?


You can find what I was able to discover on this subject many years

ago webbed at:


David Friedman



Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:36:25 -0500

From: david friedman <ddfr at>

Subject: Re: SC - Period Kinds of apples/Pears


At 5:28 PM -0700 10/27/99, Catherine Keegan wrote:

>For Apples, all of the grocery-store varieties are modern.


Depends on the grocery store. It used to be the case that stores

around Pennsic cometimes carried Summer Rambo (Rambeau d'ete), which

is a period or perhaps early 17th c. variety. And lady apples, which

are supposed to be period, occasionally show up in grocery stores.


>The variety

>"Court Pendu Plat" (or "Corps Pendu")  is supposed to date from at least

>the 1590's and may actually be derived from the old Roman variety called

>Sementinum... according to one of the catalogs.  I think at least one

>reference claimed that "White Winter Pearmain" was originally a 13th

>century variety.   And Frank Browning mentions in his book "Apples,"  that

>the rootstock variety now know as "M9" is actually derived from the

>"Paradise" apple that was popular from the 13th century; it was supposed to

>be a small yellow apple.


My list from the Miscellany article:


Calville Blanc D'Hiver (1627)   Grosse Mignonne (1667)

Court Pendu Plat (16th century-possibly Roman)

Devonshire Quarendon (1690)     Nectarine

Drap d'Or (=Coe's Golden Drop?) Early Violet (1659)

Lady Apple (1628)

Old Nonpareil                                                    Pears

Pomme Royale                     Buerre Gris (1608)

Reinette Franche                        Rousselet de Reims (1688)

Roxbury Russett (Early 17th century)    Bartlett (Williams Bon Chretien)

Scarlet Crofton                         "of ancient origin"-may or may

Sops of Wine

not be pre-1600.

Summer Rambo (16th century)

Winter Pearmain Plums

Fenouilette Gris        Green Gage (Reine Claude)

Golden Reinette Prune d'Agen


>To approximate medieval culinary apples, you would need to find an orchard

>growing the old vintage varieties.


Or grow your own--there are a number of nurseries that sell the old varieties.


David Friedman



Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:35:06 -0700

From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at>

Subject: Re: SC - Period Kinds of apples/Pears


Most of Cariadoc's list appear to be 17th century.  Winter Pearmain might

be a medieval variety, or a descendant of one, according to some research

I have read.  Lady is dated to 1600 and therefore might squeak under the

wire.  Corps Pendu is in.  I think I remember seeing a reference to

Fenouillette Gris, or something similar, being medieval.


But some of these are dated much later in the Sonoma Antique Apple



Coe's Golden Drop - 1842


Sops of Wine - 1832


I do not, unfortunately, have much information about the French

varieties... and am looking for references to same. Summer Rambo

(Rambour Franc) is listed in the SAA catalog as dating to "17??",

whatever THAT means.


If you can actually get the Lady apple, that is perhaps your best bet.

It is a small fruit, very pretty, not too sweet, somewhat acid, and

reportedly keeps all winter.  I have tasted it, but not cooked with it,

but suspect it would do well.


If you can wait about three years, you can order trees on dwarf rootstock

and grow your own:  (not up yet but you can email them for a catalog)




p.s.  On a slightly different tack, Raintree nursery has Medlars, another

period fruit that does not appear in groceries out here. (360) 496-6400

for catalog.



Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 17:21:31 EST

From: LrdRas at

Subject: Re: SC - Marmalade


tori at writes:

<< Also

lady apples, which, if I recall, is a reasonable facsimile of medieval

apples, neh? >>


Actually it is not a reasonable facsimile. Lady Apples are a medieval variety

that has survived. Every apple seed grows into a new variety of apple, only

by grafting stock from known varieties can a particular variety continue on.

Technically, every Lady Apple is a piece of the original Lady Apple. :-)





Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 22:00:10 -0800

From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at>

Subject: Re: SC - Lady apples source


The only Spitzenberg I can find information for is the variety "Esopus

Spitzenberg."  Thomas Jefferson's favorite. "USA; arose with the "low

Dutch" at Esopus, Ulster Co, New York.  Known before 1790."  Morgan &

Richards, "The Book of Apples," 1993.  Their material is heavily slanted to

English & American varieties, however, so if this was derived from an

earlier Dutch or German variety it might not be covered in their



Morgan & Richards also has the following to say about the other varieties:


Summer Rambo - "Rambo d'Ete" - synonym of Rambour Franc.  "Believed this

arose near the village of Rambure, near Abbeville, Picardy."  [Remember

"The Advocate?"  ;-> ] " 'De Rambure' recorded 1535 by botanist Jean de la

Ruelle; known in England 1665."


Sops in Wine - "UK; many varieties of this name in literature.  [fruit in

Brogdale collection] does not match descriptions of variety recorded

1831..."   Do you have an earlier attribution for this cultivar?


Fameuse - "Canada (prob).  Seed poss brought from France, planted c1730 at

Chimney Point nr Lake Champlain between Vermont and New York State.  Syns

many."  This doesn't sound like a period variety!


Api - synonym Lady Apple - "France; found in ancient Forest of Api,

Brittany, according to French botanist Merlet.  Recorded 1628 by Le

Lectier.  Recorded England 1676 by Worlidge.  Syns numerous.  Lady Apple of

North America.  Not the reputedly Roman Appia of c16th, according to French

and Italian authorities."


The best-documented "period" apple would appear to be Court Pendu Plat:

"described 1613 by Bauhin, but believed older.  Known Court Pendu Rouge in

France.  History much confused with Court Pendu Gris. Syns numerous;

include Wise Apple because flowers late and escapes spring frosts.  Claimed

Roman origin, but Lery considered Court Pendu Gris had ancient

associations.  'Capendu,' syn Court Pendu Gris appeared in accounts of

Normany abbeys in C15th and in 1420 was on sale Rouen market.  By c16th

grown all over France, also Italy, Switzerland.  Some claimed it was Roman

and Cestiana of Pliny.  Estienne named it Court Pendu in 1540, because it

was 'short hanged' ie short stalk.  'Capenda' known to Parkinson in 1629;

Court Pendu Plat known England by c18th."


There is also the original Old Pearmain, which may or may not be the

variety mentioned in both England and France ca. 1200. You would probably

have to get scion wood from the Brogdale Trust for this one.


Also there is 'Blanc Dur,' which again may or may not be the same as the

'Blandurel'  introduced to England by Queen Eleanor in 1280.  I would love

to get a couple of these...





Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 09:45:10 -0800

From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at>

Subject: Re: SC - OT:  Did anyone save the posts about apple varieties?


>Silly me accidentally deleted the posts from about a month ago

>that discussed period or almost period varieties of apples.  We

>are looking to start an orchard this coming growing season, and I

>didn't want to be stuck with the mealy "Red Delicious" or bland

>"Golden Delicious" that the local nursery has for sale.


Since the last round of discussion, I have done a little more reading on

this subject. Turns out that the Paradise apple, frequently referenced in

medieval gardens, can still be grown today.  It is used as a dwarfing

rootstock, called "M.9" or Malling 9.  You can get it as a rootstock

(cheap!) for grafting purposes from several mail-order nurseries.   Try

Cummins Nursery,

Jim Cummins can give you information about the Paradise apple and how to

grow it.


Note that there is also a modern variety called "Paradise" that is not the

same as the medieval apple.


You certainly don't have to be stuck with the wretched modern Delicious -

even the Home Despot stores out here (CA) carry many other cultivars.  I

just got Whitney Crab and Gravenstein from there.  You should consider

planting a couple of crabs; they will be similar to the "wild" apple-crabs

that were also used in the MA.


Have fun!





Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:52:54 -0500


Subject: Re: SC - OT:  Did anyone save the posts about apple varieties?


    I live in apple country.  If you're getting mealy Red Delicious, they're

overripe.  Those that have been stored too long may also look really

wonderfully dark red, and be rotten in the center.

    Bland Golden Delicious are also overripe.  When reasonably fresh they

have a good strong flavor.

    Growing location may also make a difference.  Apples need so many days

of properly cold temperature to set fruit properly, specific to each

variety.  A tree growing on the fringe of it's range will not have as good

fruit.  Apples can be grown a long ways south if they're an adapted variety,

and only certain varieties will bear good fruit in the colder areas.

    I suggest doing some research first.  The NYS Agricultural Experiment

Station at Geneva, NY has considerable information, and so do many nursery

catalogs.  Miller Nurseries in Canandaigua, NY, specializes in antique

varieties, and there is quite a bit of information just in their free


    There is also an old set of books entitled "The Apples of New York",

rich in historical information and storage charactistics of apples, which

was written when people kept their own in cellars.


Diane S.



Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:22:03 -0500

From: Magdalena <magdlena at>

Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider


CBlackwill at wrote:

> Does

> anyone have any information of which particular family of apples would be

> most appropriate for a "period style" cider?


Well, one of my cider books says "In England, the most esteemed cider apple in

the seventeenth century was the Red Streak, which gave 'the richest and most

vinous liquor.'  Other favorites were the Bromesbury Crab, the Red & White Must

apples, the Harvey, the Pearmain, the Foxwhelp, and the Gennet-Moyle."

_Cider: Making, Using & Enjoying Sweet & Hard Cider_  by Annie Proulx & Lew

Nichols; 2nd ed. p 92.

(the first edition is slightly better than the 2nd)


If you can get your hands on them, Kingston Black is a good one-apple cider

apple, but otherwise I suggest you use a blend of apple types. Definitely throw

in a few crab apples for tannins if what you have available is mostly dessert

apples.  Red Delicious makes a good blending base, with lots of aromatics, but

requires plenty of more flavorful varieties to give the cider character.  I'm

told that Golden Russet is an excellent cider apple, both sweet and tart with a

nice aroma.  The Roxbury Russet was developed in Massachusetts in 1649, and is

listed as a superior cider apple.  Winesaps are good blended with dessert apples

such as the delicious.


I have lots more info on apple varieties if you are interested, but sadly not

much on which ones were developed when.


- -Magdalena



Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 14:47:08 EDT

From: allilyn at

Subject: Re: SC - an interesting challenge...and its even about  medieval food! :)


Chiquart's almond applesauce--vegan


73.  Again, emplumeus of apples: to give understanding to him who will

make it, take good barberine apples according to the quantity of it which

one wants to make and then pare them well and properly and cut them into

fair gold or silver dishes; and let him have a fair, good, and clean

earthen pot, and let him put in fair clean water and put to boil over

fair and clear coals and put his apples to boil therein. And let him

arrange that he has a great quantity of good sweet almonds according to

the quantity of apples which he has put to cook, and let him blanch,

clean, and wash them very well and put them to be brayed in a mortar

which does not smell at all of garlic, and let him bray them very well

and moisten them with the broth in which the said apples are cooking; and

when the said apples are cooked enough draw them out onto fair and clean

boards, and let him strain the almonds with this water and make milk

which is good and thick, and put it back to boil on clear and clean coals

without smoke, and a very little salt. And while it boils let him chop

his said apples very small with a little clean knife and then, being

chopped, let him put them into his milk, and put in a great deal of sugar

according to the amount that there is of the said emplumeus of apples;

and then, when the doctor asks for it, put it in fair bowls or pans of

gold or silver.



Allison,     allilyn at



Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 09:28:37 EDT

From: Seton1355 at

Subject: SC - OOP   about apples


I got this information from Tip=World and thought I would pass it along.    



Although we now have over 300 varieties of apple in the world, only about 30

of them are well known, and not even all of these are available in the United

States. In the next few tips, you will find a helpful description (in

alphabetical order) of the 15 most popular

varieties, followed by suggestions of the most suitable ways for using them.

If you are buying apples to be eaten within a week, look for those with

unbruised and unbroken flesh and with no sign of insect damage. They don't

need special storage--the fruit bowl on the counter will do just fine,

providing you with your own real-life still life. If you prefer a chilled

apple, store them in the refrigerator in a plastic bag.


The Braeburn apple is a beautiful red dessert apple from New Zealand.

Sometimes in grocery stores, the stickers on them will simply say "New

Zealand," but be sure to distinguish it from the New Zealand Fuji apple,

which is slightly more acidic.


The Cortland is a cross between the McIntosh and the Ben Davis apples. It was

developed around 1915 in upstate New York. It, too, is a crisp, red-skinned

apple, yet it works for just about everything--fresh, cooked, baked, or



The Egremont Russet, often called simply "Russet," is named for its golden

russetted skin. Its scent is nutty, and its flesh has a fine, hard texture.

It is one of the best eating apples, but it's also excellent in pies and



The Empire is a light-textured and juicy American red dessert apple. Its

flesh is crisp and pale green.


The Fuji is also from New Zealand, but its flesh is crisper, juicier, and

more aromatic than that of the Braeburn. It makes a wonderful snacking or

dessert apple. Its skin is red with patches of yellow.

The Golden Delicious has been the best all-purpose apple since its discovery

in West Virginia in 1914. It is sometimes called simply the Yellow Delicious.


The Granny Smith has long been considered a dessert apple, because its hard,

crisp flesh retains its shape during cooking, making it ideal for main

dishes. The skin is tough, and it is the brightest green of all apples.


The Greening was developed in Green's End, Rhode Island, at the turn of the

18th century. It is a tart, yellow-green skinned apple used mainly for pies

and cooking.


The Ida-red is one you see everywhere in the fall. Why? Probably because it

is easy to grow. But to tell the truth, it's a dull apple--dull for munching

into, dull for cooking with. Keep shopping.


The Jonathan is another good all-round variety. It has bright red skin

streaked with orange and a creamy white flesh, sometimes with little bits of

red in it. It is juicy, slightly tart, and suitable for both snacking and


The McIntosh, another highly popular apple, was developed in Canada. With

its flavorful, aromatic white, juicy, and crispy flesh, it is good both on

its own or in desserts.


The Opalescent, which arrives on the market in mid-September, is another

bright red apple with a few small green spots. It is crisp and juicy, and

good all by itself.


The Red Delicious generally looks better than it tastes. While it does have a

refreshing tartness, its skin is tough, and its flesh is crumbly, and

sometimes it makes you say, "I can't swallow this." But if you come across a

batch of Red Delicious apples that aren't too mealy, snag 'em up!


The Rome Beauty is without a doubt America's favorite baking apple. It's a

large, round, red apple that's not at all good fresh but keeps its shape and

flavor when cooked. In addition, it absorbs flavors like a sponge and so is

especially good in spicy pies and cakes.


The Winesap lives up to its excellent name. It has a shiny, deep red skin,

tinged with yellow. It's juicy and both sweet and tart, making it equally

good as a munching apple and a baking apple.

Apples not only provided a vital source of food and drink, they were also an

invaluable preservative for our pioneer ancestors' food and supplies. Apples

were even used medicinally as anesthetics, antiseptics, sedatives, and



Below are a few tips for using apples that our ancestors knew well:


An apple in your bag of potatoes will help keep the potatoes from sprouting.


An apple in your brown sugar container will help to keep the sugar moist.


An apple in your cookie jar will help to keep the cookies moist.


Add lemon juice to an apple recipe if the apples you are using lack tartness

or need flavor.


If you cannot brush your teeth after a meal, eat an apple. Eating a raw apple

will cleanse your mouth of more than 95 percent of bacteria that cause tooth




Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 11:05:49 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at>

Subject: Re: SC - Apple butter


The Neapolitan recipe collection has a recipe for applesauce: cooked,

ground apples are mixed with almond milk, rosewater, and sugar, and

cooked until thick.  Scully says it is a parallel recipe to one in the

Catalan sources.  I looked at the recipe for "Pomada" in Nola, and it is

similar, except that the sauce is cooked with whole cinnamon, cloves,

and peeled gingerroot which have been soaked in rosewater, and the

almond milk is made with chicken broth.  (you could make a Lenten

version with water, if you preferred).  Since the sauce is apparently

cooked without applepeels, and the dominant spice is ginger, not

cinnamon, I am not sure how much it would taste like modern apple



Source: Ruperto de Nola, _Libro de Guisados_ (Spanish, 1529)

Translation: Lady Brighid ni Chiarain (Robin Carroll-Mann)


POMADA -- Applesauce


      Take apples which are sour and sweet; and quarter each of them; and

prepare them; and remove the core and then put them in cold water and if they

are very sour give them a boil and then take peeled almonds and grind them

well; and put the apples in the mortar and grind them together with the

almonds very vigorously and when they are well ground dissolve it all with

good chicken broth and strain it all through a woolen cloth ; and put it all in

the pot in which it must cook; and take ginger which is fine; peel off the skin

until it is white and make of it little pieces the size of half a finger; and put them to soak overnight in good rosewater until the morning; then take whole

cinnamon; and tie it with a thread jointly with cloves and scald them with hot

broth and when the cloves and the cinnamon are scalded put the pot on the

fire with the apples; and put a good quantity of sugar in it and when it is more

than half cooked take the soaked ginger and the cloves; and the cinnamon;

and put them all in the pot and if it does not taste enough of ginger put in a

little which is ground and when it is cooked you will cast the rosewater in the

pot and prepare dishes; on top of them cast sugar and cinnamon if you wish.



Note: "Tie it with a thread" is the standard direction in Nola for cooking with

whole spices that are then to be removed.  Since the thought of tying threads

to individual cloves is daunting to me, I think I'd make up a cheesecloth

bundle and scoop it out afterwards with a slotted spoon.


Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)



Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 22:01:59 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at>

Subject: Re: SC - Apple butter


Sue Clemenger wrote:

> Hmm, don't know who sent the first part of this message, but I've made

> both sauce and butter, and would say, rather, that the chief difference

> lies more in the relative amounts of time alloted for cooking them.

> As far as ingredients go, I'm sure there are a number of local variants,

> and of course, the taste of the finished product would also depend on

> the type(s) of apples being used.

> Hmm, it's almost apple time here....I just may have to trot down to the

> farmers' market for ingredients....yum...

> --Maire


It was my understanding that at least some versions of apple butter are

made with no added sugar, just apples cooked in apple juice until more

or less homogeneous, and that a mix of apple varieties, including both

sweet and tart types, compensated for the lack of cane sugar. I dunno, I

think I read all this off an apple butter jar label.


I also think a key difference would be in the usage. Apple butter is

sufficiently rich that I would serve it pretty much only as a spread for

bread and such, _maybe_ between cake layers, while I would do neither

with applesauce, which I tend to see either as a stand-alone dish or as

an accompaniment for things like meats, black puddings (yum!) and

perhaps various frittery units such as latkes.





Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:57:38 GMT

From: "Vincent Cuenca" <bootkiller at>

Subject: SC - Re: cider


>Does anyone on this list happen to know whether Italians drank cider in



Italians I don't know about.  Hard-cider production in the Asturias and

Cantabria regions of Spain, IIRC, goes back to the Roman era, and cider is

still a popular beverage in northern Spain.  (Neat party trick: hold a glass

by your waist, and a bottle of cider above your head. Pour the cider into

the glass without spilling.  This is the traditional method of pouring cider

in Asturias; this supposedly aerates the beverage.)  I don't know if the

Italians would have considered cider to be an appropriate beverage,

particularly if it soured quickly.  You could try a couple of apple recipes

from De Nola, who cooked for the King of Naples:


Pomada (Sauce with Apples)


Take apples that are tart and sweet; and cut each one into fourths, and peel

them; and remove the cores and then put them in cold water and if they are

very tart give them a boil and then take blanched almonds and grind them

well; and put the apples in the water and grind them with the almonds very

vigorously; and when this is all ground together thin it with good chicken

stock and force it through a strainer, and put it all in the pot you will

cook with; and take fine white ginger and peel it so that it is all white;

and cut it into little pieces about half the size of dice; and let them soak

overnight in rosewater that should be fine; then take whole cinnamon and tie

it with a thread along with cloves and scald them in hot broth, and when

they are scalded set the pot with the apples on the fire; and add a good

amount of sugar; and when it is more than half cooked take the ginger and

the cloves and the soaked cinnamon and put it all in the pot, and if it does

not taste enough like ginger add a little ground ginger until it does taste

of ginger; and when it is cooked add rosewater to the pot and prepare the

serving dishes; sprinkle sugar and cinnamon on them if you wish.


Mirrauste of Apples


Take the sweetest apples and peel off their skins, and cut them into

fourths; and remove the cores and the seeds, and then bring a pot to boil

with as much water as you know is needed, and when the water boils add the

apples and then take well toasted almonds; and grind them in a mortar, thin

them with the broth from the apples, and force them through a strainer with

a large piece of bread soaked in the broth from the apples; and all this

should come out very thick: and once it is forced through add a good amount

of ground cinnamon and sugar; and then set it on the fire to cook and when

the sauce boils remove it from the fire; and add the apples that should be

well drained of their broth, but watch that the apples are not scalded, so

that you can prepare serving dishes of them; and once they are prepared

scatter sugar and cinnamon over them.


Let us know how it all turns out!





Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:53:28 -0400

From: Ann & Les Shelton <sheltons at>

Subject: SC - Re: Cider


<<Does anyone on this list happen to know whether Italians drank cider

in period? >>


<< I seem to recall that the first "cider house" in England was

established in fairly late period, but, again, this is a fair bit

distant from Italy.  Perhaps someone could enlighten us as to whether

apples were prevailant in Italy during period, and from there we could

conduct a little research.  My uneducated guess would be that wine would

have been preferred over cider, perhaps to such an extent that it's

commercial production would have been very limited.  This is, of course,

only a guess.    Balthazar of Blackmoor >>


Platina (1468) distinguished between sweet apples which should be eaten

in the first course and sour/astringent apples which were more safely

eaten after meals.  There were varieties that were early ripening,

summer ripening, and those that kept in the winter, although he doesn't

name them.  His only comment re apple juice is that it easily turns to

vinegar when pressed.


Castelvetro (1614), writing for an English patron, wrote: "Here should

have been the place to describe the enormous quantity of apples and

pears we have in such profusion, but since to do so would take up more

space than I have room for, I shall limit myself to describing only

those varieties which you do not have in England." The only variety he

describes is the Paradise Apple.  He doesn't mention the general uses of

apples in Italy; several pages later, he goes into great depth re the

different types and uses of grapes, specifically wine-making.


So, it looks like apples were commonly available as a food, but I don't

have anything that says they were turned into something like cider in






Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 08:07:24 -0400

From: harper at

Subject: Re: SC - Apples?


And it came to pass on 18 Oct 00, , that Hoon, Twila wrote:

> Additionally, does anybody have a period reference to baked whole or

> quartered apples that remain "apple shaped" as opposed to apple sauce /

> apple moy (sp?)?


Vincente recently posted his translation of Mirraust of Apples from

Nola.  That's quartered apples cooked in almond milk with sugar

and cinnamon.  I think Granado has a baked quince recipe, and at

the end says "and you can do the same with apples".  I'll check



Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)



Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:25:32 -0600 (MDT)

From: grasse at (Martina Grasse)

Subject: SC - many digests and German things...


The Kuchen recipe... I did check Baufeld, and the reference would indeed

translate as a bundle of straw, and I have no clue what purpose that would

have served.  I would love to hear what re-creation you come up with.

Apples in shape: Rumpolt (1581 German) has several fried/roasted apple type


#39. take apples/ and hollow them out/ or push the core out with a hollow

iron/ and make with wine a dough/ and cover the apples therein/ toss them in

hot butter/ and bake (remember in German this still can mean fry) them out/

so the dough becomes crisp (or could mean quick - as in fry quickly) (the

word is rech - don't have Baufeld to hand)  / give it warm to the table/ and

sprinkle it with sugar, so it is good and welltasting.


#40. take apples/ hollow them out / and toss them in hot butter/ roast them/

till they are nicely brown/ take them out into a fish kettle/ put anis/

crushed cinnamon and sugar/ thereover/ pour wine thereover/ and let it

therewith make a juice/ that it makes a short broth/ but do not let the

apples overcook/ that you can lift them out whole in a bowl/ sprinkle it with

sugar/ and give it warm/ to the table so it is good and lovely


On a semi related note.. I just spotted a recipe (#37) for "Erdtepffel'"

apples of the earth (related to pomme de terre? Potato? (has it been

discussed here before?

Sorry if Im duplicating:

#37 "Earthapples" peel and cut them nicely small/ soak (or poach) them in

water/ and press them well out through a closewoven cloth/ chop them small

and roast them in bacon that is cut small/ take a little milk thereunder/ and

let it simmer therewith/ so it will be good and welltasting.


Gwen Catrin von Berlin



Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 00:09:28 -0500

From: harper at

Subject: SC - Recipe: cider sauce


For many of us, apple cider is widely available right now, so here's

a period recipe that uses it.  It has the texture of honey, and a

wonderful sweet-tart flavor.  Note to non-U.S. cooks: sweet apple

cider is a non-alcoholic unfiltered apple juice.


I do not know what this sauce was intended to be served with.  It

can be spread like jelly on bread.  I suspect it would go well with

pork or duck.  I also suspect that it would be a good candidate for

canning, though I have no practical experience in that area.  

Refrigerated, it keeps for at least a month, probably longer.





Source: Diego Granado, Libro del Arte de Cozina, 1599

Translation & Redaction: Lady Brighid ni Chiarain



                Para hacer salsa de zumo de manzanas

                To make sauce of the juice of apples


Take the apples, and without peeling them, grate them and extract the

juice from them, as we said of the quinces; adding a little vinegar, and

white wine, and take the clearest part, and for each pound of juice, put

eight ounces of sugar, and cook it like the juice of the quinces, with the

same spices.



And two related recipes:


                       Para hazer salsa real

                        To make royal sauce


Take three pounds of fine sugar, and two quarts of white vinegar without

roses, and a quart of white wine, a little whole cinnamon, and make it boil

all together in a new glazed pot until it is cooked, and have the pot

covered, so that it cannot exhale, and to know if it is cooked, the sign will

be that, in falling, a drop will congeal, so that touching it with your hand

does not make it come apart.  Serve it cold, and take care that it does not

burn.  When you cook it, you can add nutmeg, and cloves, and in place

of the pot, you can make it in a casserole.



               Para hazer salsa de zumo de membrillos

               To make sauce of the juice of quinces


Grate the quince lightly with a grater, without peeling it, and put it inside

the woolen cloth, and press it until it has yielded all the juice, and put it

in a flask until the thickest part goes to the bottom, and take the clearest

part, and put it in a glazed casserole or pot, and for each pound of juice

put eight ounces of sugar, and two ounces of vinegar, and one ounce of

wine of San Martin, and cook it in the manner that the Royal Sauce is

cooked, as described above, with a quarter [ounce] of whole cinnamon,

half a nutmeg, and four cloves.



Apple Cider Sauce


2 cups            sweet apple cider

8 ounces    sugar

1/4 cup           white wine vinegar

2 tablespoons     white wine

1/2  ounce  cinnamon sticks

1/2         whole nutmeg

4           whole cloves


Combine all ingredients in a saucepan and simmer over medium-low heat

about 45 minutes, until the volume is reduced by half and a candy

thermometer reads 220F (105C).  Strain through cheesecloth.  Pour into a

clean glass jar.  Refrigerate.  Makes about 1 cup.


Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)



Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:33:00 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - RE: German Feast


> > >Apple pillows (an apple quarter, battered and fried)

> Ooh... I'd love to see the recipe for this!


> Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise       


From Sabina Welserin:


140 Apple pillows


Take good apples, peel them and cut them into four pieces. Take flour, eggs

and water and salt, make a batter, not too thin , pour the apples into it

and put fat in a deep pan. When it is hot, put the pieces into the fat,

until the cake rises, let it fry slowly. Turn it, let it also fry on the

other side, then it is good.





Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:06:01 +0100

From: UlfR <parlei at>

To: sca-cooks at

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Was: ReApple Computers,Now:Back On topic


DeeWolff at <DeeWolff at> [2001.12.12] wrote:

> Anybody got any good period apple recipes other that applemuse?


Appulmoy, but that perhaps counts as close enought to make no

difference? Anyone tried the ones from Sabrina Welsherin. I'm thinking

in particular of:


  75 Another apple tart


  Peel the apples, slice them and roast them, cut the cores cleanly out.

  Chop them small beforehand and put beef marrow thereon and grated bread

  crumbs. Stir it together well, stir into it also cinnamon, sugar and

  raisins and let it bake.


UlfR                                                 parlei at



Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:17:23 -0500

From: johnna holloway <johnna at>

To: sca-cooks at

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Apples


I have used the bombard apples from Mrs. Blencowe.


Nanna submitted it on the web to a site, so I have

copied that here to save the re-typing.



Recipe taken from the Recipe Book

of Anne Blencowe, written in 1694


1 large apple for each person

2 or 3 crystallized apricots or some good apricot jam

puff pastry (allow 2 oz. for each apple to be enclosed)

white of eggs (allow 1 to every 2 apples)

about 6 oz caster sugar

2 teaspoons orange juice


Peel and core the apples and fill with the cut-up

apricots or apricot jam.  Roll the puff pastry very

thin, cut in large squares, one

for each apple, and enrobe them. Bake for 10 minutes

at 450 F, then reduce the heat to 350 F. Cook a further

15 minutes.

Meanwhile, beat the egg whites with the orange juice

and sugar until they hold a peak. As soon as you take

out the apples, pile

this meringue over them, so that it runs down

the sides. They should look like snowballs. Pull them

in the warming drawer of

your cooker, to set the meringue without colouring,

and after about 2 hours, take them out and let them get quite cold


serving. They should be eaten with cream.


"They make a very pretty side dish", says Mrs. Blencowe.


Bibliography - Historical Receipts C-2

Recipe submitted by Nanna R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir


Fettiplace discusses tarts and pies. There are also

a variety of things like apple jellies, creams, pastes, pancakes

and comfits that can be done with apples.


Johnnae llyn Lewis  Johnna Holloway



Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 19:37:56 -0800

To: sca-cooks at

From: lilinah at

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dissolving Saunders


>It'll be fun experimenting with it....Anyone got some favored recipes

>that have saunders as an ingredient?



Anahita's Apple Moys/Moyle for 80

Based on a survey of five recipes

in "Two Fifteenth Century English Cookbooks"


24 apples - peel, core, cut up

4 cups ground blanched almonds

1 gallon plus 1 quart warm water

1-1/2 cups granulated white sugar

1 tsp. saffron

1 tsp. powdered red sanders

1/2 salt


"Good Powder"

1-1/2 tsp. powdered ginger

1-1/2 tsp. powdered cinnamon

1-1/2 tsp. powdered cloves

1-1/2 tsp. powdered mace

3/4 tsp. powdered pepper

3/4 tsp. powdered grains of paradise


1. Make almond milk with ground almonds and warm water.

2. Simmer prepared apples in almond milk until tender on a medium fire.

3. Puree cooked apples and almond milk in food processor

(we actually used a potato masher right in the cooking pot at the Boar Hunt).

4. Add remaining ingredients and simmer until thick on a low fire,

stirring often to prevent burning on the bottom.

5. Taste and adjust seasonings.



OK, so i cheated and used both saunders =and= good powder.

In order to serve this to vegetarians, i made it with almond milk, not broth.

There were just a couple servings left over. I took 'em home and ate 'em.




Harleian Ms. 279 (c. 1430) (3 recipes)


Lxxix. Apple Muse.

Take Appelys an sethe hem, and Serge hem thorwe a Sefe in-to a potte;

thanne take Almaunde Mylke & Hony, an caste ther-to, an gratid Brede,

Safroun, Saunderys, & Salt a lytil, & caste all in the potte & lete

hem sethe; & loke that thou stere it wyl, & serue it forth.

[this is the only one of the five that uses saunders]


Cxxxiiij. Apple Moyle.

Nym Rys, an bray hem wyl, & temper hem with Almaunde mylke, & boyle

it' & take Applys, & pare hem, an small screde hem in mossellys;

throw on sugre y-now, & coloure it with safroun, & caste ther-to gode

pouder, & serue f[orth].


Cxxxv. Applade Ryalle.

Take Applys, & sethe hem tylle they ben tendyr, & than let hem kele;

then draw hem throw a straynour; & on flesshe day caste ther-to gode

fatte brothe of freysshe beef, an whyte grece, & Sugre, & Safroun, &

gode pouder; & in a Fysshe day, take Almaunde mylke, & oyle of Olyff,

& draw ther-vppe with-al a gode pouder, & serue forth. An for nede,

draw it vppe with Wyne, & a lytil hony put ther-to for to make it

than dowcet; and serue it forth.



Laud Ms. 553 (Bodleian Library) (2 recipes)



Nym rys & bray hem in a morter, tempre hem vp with almande milke,

boille hem: nym appelis & kerue hem as small as douste, cast hem yn

after ye boillyng, & sugur: colour hit with safron, cast therto goud

poudre, & 3if hit forth.


Apply moys.

Nym appeles, seth hem, let hem kele, frete hem throwe an her syue;

cast it on a pot / & on a fless day cast thereto goud fat broth of

bef, & white grese sugur & safron, & on fissh days almand mylke, &

oille de oliue, & sugur, & safron: boille hit, messe hit, cast aboue

good poudre, & 3if it forth.



From: "Barbara Benson" <vox8 at>

To: <sca-cooks at>

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 23:01:18 -0400

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Finding "period" Apples


I believe that the good gentle that originally replied to this post was

confusing the Pink Lady Apple with the Lady Apple. The Lady Apple is most

likely within our period of study and is most definitely French.


If you are interested in Planting an apple tree that will produce period

apples you should check the following link:

They have at least 4 varietys that should be acceptable.


In one of my Gardening Books "The Medieval Garden" there is a reference to

documentation that shows that there were at least sixteen varieties of

apples and pears grown in England during the thirteenth century. A specific

reference is sited of Eleanor of Castile sending to Paris for grafts of the

"Blancdurel" apple to be grown in the royal garden at King's Langley in

1280. (She also sent for cherry wine and brie - the lady had good taste).

This had to be done because apples (and pears) do not reproduce true to form

from seed. Each seed in every apple is genetically different, and if you

were to plant 10 seeds all from the same apple - once they matured and if

they bore fruit, all of trees would give very different fruits. And most of

them would be inedible, fit only for cider and not for eating.


This was known early on in history and the art of grafting is an ancient

one. The good thing for us in all of this, is if we can actually find trees

that claim a specific date they should bear fruit identical (giving

allowance for dirt and climate) to the original tree that was deemed worthy

to "clone" by grafting. The bad thing for us is the fact that in the quest

for sweetness, predictability and conformity we (ie: the american corporate

farmer) have created mealy, characterless apples.


Serena da Riva



Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:49:47 -0700

To: sca-cooks at

From: david friedman <ddfr at>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Finding "period" Apples


>This was known early on in history and the art of grafting is an ancient

>one. The good thing for us in all of this, is if we can actually find trees

>that claim a specific date they should bear fruit identical (giving

>allowance for dirt and climate) to the original tree that was deemed worthy

>to "clone" by grafting. The bad thing for us is the fact that in the quest

>for sweetness, predictability and conformity we (ie: the american corporate

>farmer) have created mealy, characterless apples.


The problem is that we are too mobile. I abandoned my first orchard

containing period varieties in Philadelphia more than twenty-five

years ago,  three more orchards (I don't remember if the one in New

Orleans had any period varieties of fruit or not) since. No idea if

any of the trees are still there.


The green gage plum in my  latest orchard, however, has gotten to the

point of producing fruit. I have hopes for the lady apple in another

few years. If I can just stay put a while ...  .


Incidentally, Summer Rambos, which are period or very close, are

still grown commercially. A store near Pennsic used to carry them--at

the right time of the year. But I haven't seen them in recent years.


There is a firm called "Applesource" that will mail you boxes of

apples of any of a very large number of varieties, including some

period ones. Useful if you like to taste before you plant.





From: "Sharon Gordon" <gordonse at>

To: <sca-cooks at>

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:20:49 -0400

Subject: [Sca-cooks] A trick for growing period apples & note for person who has healthy tree but not preferred variety


One neat thing about apples is that you can graft many different kinds on to

the same tree.  A three year old tree has room for about 5 different grafts.

Over time you could have 40+ different kinds on the same tree.  It's really

neat when it blooms as the flowers look different on various branches and

then again as the fruit ripens.  An advantage is that the fruit can ripen

over several months instead of all at once.


For the person who was thinking of cutting down some healthy neglected old

trees and planting period ones instead.  Please don't! ...For two


1) One is that a healthy old neglected tree is a good source of grafting

stock for other people who would like to grow organic apples.


2) The other is that you can remove grafting stock for others and then graft

on period scion wood for yourself.

You will then usually have some apples from that new graft the very next

year rather than having to wait 3-5 for a new tree to grow up and produce.


Most local extension services will have a spring saturday morning grafting

workshop if you would like to learn how.  It's not hard, and you can also

learn from drawings in books.  If you live within driving distance of

Decorah, Iowa there is an apple orchard with several hundred heirloom apple

varieties and a couple hundred heirloom grapes.  You can arrange to get

scion wood from them.

It's at the Seed Savers Exchange farm.  If you can go

the 3rd(or so) weekend in July for their big meeting, you can also  meet the

guy who is researching heirloom apples and has a huge database of

information on old varieties of apples.  I think it's at 8,000+ varieties





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