bananas-msg - 12/1/11 Period bananas. Evidence for when and where they were known and used. Recipes. NOTE: See also the files: fruits-msg, apples-msg, fruit-quinces-msg, nuts-msg, sugar-msg, vegetables-msg, fruit-melons-msg, pomegranates-msg, fruit-citrus-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: ayotte at milo.NOdak.EDU (Robert Arthur Ayotte) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period fruits? Date: 8 Dec 1993 08:02:24 -0500 Organization: North Dakota State University ACM, Fargo ND : But no bananas or pineapple unless you get to Africa. : My secondary source research (Tanahill, and the Encyclopedia Britannica) : told me that Bananas were exported to the New World at the end of period by : the Spanish and Portuguese, where bananas themselves are indigenous to Asia : and not Africa. Do you have more information? I found these sources to be : sufficient to convince me to work with banana, but I could be convinced : either way. According to McGee, bananas were native to india and malaya, it arrived in Africa around 500 AD. Europeans knew it as the indian fig. Bananas originally had fairly large seeds, and in some parts of the world they can still be found growing wild with the black seeds taking up nearly 1/3 of their interior. Somewhere I remember hearing that bananas were known in Rome, but were not considered fitting food for humans. The date would have been sometime around the time of the first Ceasers. : It is safe to say, however, that modern bananas are not even close to period : ones, its true. But they are closer to period bananas than, say modern pears : would be... : Tibor (ever-learning) : -- : Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy at math.harvard.edu) The seeds in bananas are rock hard and vary from 1/4 inch to almost 1/2 inch. How the seedless varieties were found is unknown. Horace From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period fruits? Date: 8 Dec 1993 16:44:52 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Robert Arthur Ayotte wrote: > Bananas originally had fairly large seeds, and in some >parts of the world they can still be found growing wild with the black >seeds taking up nearly 1/3 of their interior. >almost 1/2 inch. How the seedless varieties were found is unknown. > >Horace The "seedless" varieties are modern polyploid hybrids. (They actually do have seeds, but they are small and infertile.) I learned something fascinating in this regard in my university genetics course: statistically speaking, something like one in every thousand (exact number forgotten) bananas ought to have large, fertile seeds due to the proper combination of ploidy in the gametes involved. Why don't we ever see _any_ in the markets? Because fertile bananas are easily identifiable visually and are removed from the bunch before being shipped. To get this back more on topic, specialty groceries around here carry about a dozen different varieties of non-standard bananas, but I have no idea whether any of them are ones that would have been available. Keridwen f. Morgan Glasfryn Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 15:41:44 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Fw: [TY] Fruits From 'New World' > My questions are: > 1) Approximatley when did the Pineapple reach England (and > surrounding areas)? According to the quick ref, Columbus introduced the pineapple (Ananascomosus) to Spain in 1493. I haven't seen anything as to when the pineapple reached England, but I suspect it is in the 17th Century, after England establishes colonies in the Caribbean. > 2) Waht other 'New World' fruits were discovered and when... Also attached to Columbus' return in 1493 is the plantain (Musaparadisiaca), a relative of the banana. The fruit is similar to the fruit of genus Plantago which appears to have been cultivated in Europe at the time and was also known as plantain. > -Ly. Ganna Bear Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 16:32:22 -0700 From: david friedman Subject: Bananas (was RE: SC - Hummus and Other Questionably Period Foods) At 2:38 PM -0400 7/5/99, Michelle \"TJ\" Brunzie wrote: >Like bananas - I'm sure >bananas have come up already - which I was wondering about because I have >this book (which isn't *that* historical) which asserts that bananas were >introduced to Europe by Muslims. Could be. Taciunem Sanitatas, which is a 14th c. latin book based on an Arabic original, has a picture of bananas by someone who has clearly never seen one, and says they are grown in Sicily. Sicily had been Muslim, was conquered by by Normans in, I think, the 12th c., but may still have been to some degree culturally Muslim later. Also, there was a recent story about a 16th c. banana peel someone found in England. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:34:24 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Unhistoric things we serve WAS:Shepherds Pie > Warning! Warning Will Robinson! Andrea..... Bananas are > period dating back to pre-Roman times. Hannibals army > were among the first Western Europeans to taste bananas. Pliny specifically gives credit to Alexander the Great's army which invaded India and provides a description of the banana. The fruit was apparently unknown in the Mediterrenean Basin in 1st Century CE, so I doubt Hannibal found any on his alpine elephantine excursion. The best evidence is that bananas were brought to the Middle East and North Africa around 700 CE as part of the Islamic expansion and were brought to Central Africa as part of the Arab slave trade. They are believed to have arrived in Madagascar about 300 CE during a migration from Indonesia and were traded into South Africa from there. > They were grown > in the Canary Islands by the Portugese before the discovery of the > New World. A number of items now grown so extensively in the > New World are actually Old World! The Portuguese found bananas in West Africa and imported them to the Canaries where they began cultivating them. The Spanish took the Canaries in the late 15th Century and in 1516, bananas were transported to the New World. > True, period bananas are not > similar to modern breeds you get at the Safeway, but they are > absolutely period! To find recipes, you will need to look at early > Islamic and Judaic cookery (they will be hard to find I > think). Period > bananas look more like those stubby reddish ones you see on > ocassion in some larger stores. > > Akim Yaroslavich While there has been selective breeding to improve the stock, the banana varieties available today were available in period, though they may not have been in a commonly frequented local. IIRC, the Cavendish, which is today's common yellow banana, is out of Asia and is the choice commercial banana because it is hardier than the Big Mike (originally from the Canaries) that it replaced in the trade and that small yellow and small red bananas were also being grown in the Canaries. Bear Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:58:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: SC - Bananas Here is what the Oxford Companion to Food says about bananas: It seems likely that edible bananas date back several thousand years in India. There were certainly known by repute to the Greeks in the 4th Century BC, when the army of Alexander the Great encountered them on trees in India. PLiny the Elder, writing several centuries later, recorded the incident and cited the name "pala" for the fruit. This name passed into classical Greek and is reflected in some modern Indian names. The classical writer Theofrastus repeated a legend that wise men sat in the shade of the banana tree and ate its fruit, whence the pleasing but now obsolete botanical name M. sapientium, meaning 'banana of the sages.' The banana reached China about AD 200, when it is mentioned in the works of Yang Fu. However, it was grown only in the south, and was considered a rare, exotic fruit in the north, an attitude that lasted well into the 20th Century. During the 1st Millenium AD, the banana also arrived in Africa, probably taken directly from the Malay region to Madagascar. By the end of the 14th century, the fruit was being cultivated right across the continent to the west coast. During the same period, it was take eastward through the Pacific Islands. The Arabs had spread cultivation through their lands south of the Mediterranean before AD 650, but no farther north than Egypt, the climate of South Europe being too cool for the plant. Consequently, the banana remained unknown to most Europeans until much later. THe first serious European contact with the fruit came not long after 1402, when Portuguese sailors found it in West Africa and took it to the Canary Islands. That is why the European name 'banana' comes from a West African word, the Guinean banema or banana. The Canaries have remained an important banana-growing area ever since, and it was from there that a Spanish missionary, later Bishop of Panama, took banana roots to American in 1516, after which the new plant spread quickly through Central America and the northern parts of South America. For some reason, the Spaniards saw a likeness between the banana tree and the totally different plane tree (plateno), which is how the plantain got its confusing name. Huette Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:18:50 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Bananas? >What references, if any, do we have for bananas used as foodstuffs during >our period? > >Malachias Pliny describes bananas and their consumption in India based on Nearchus' invasion of Northern India around 325 BCE. Apparently the fruit was not brought back to Greece at that time. The fruit was brought to Africa from Southeast Asia about 325 CE by a migration to Mozambique. A second importation to North Africa occurred after the Arab conquest of Nothern India at the beginning of the 8th Century. Between the two importations and the Arab slave trade into Central Africa, bananas spread to the West Coast of Africa by the 15th Century. There are supposedly references to bananas in some of the Arab texts, but I have not found the texts or translations. The Portuguese found bananas in West Africa and brought them to the Canary Islands after the islands were taken from Castile in 1425. The bananas were under cultivation when Spain retook the islands in 1496. Oviedo records the importation of bananas from the Canary Islands to the Caribbean in his "Historia general y natural de las Indias, Islas y Tierra-Firme del Mar Oceano" in 1517. While there are a few quibbles, the evidence suggests that this is the initial introduction of bananas into the New World. The banana which turned up in a Tudor trash heap represents, in my opinion, an anomalous import from the Canaries. Two professionals commenting on the origin of this particular banana suggested the New World and Southeast Asia. Both are doubtful, since bananas last only about 10 to 14 days after cutting without carefully controlled refrigeration. While the banana was eaten in Africa, Asia, and probably Arabia and the Levant during the SCA period, it is a tropical fruit, and its perishable nature severely limited its use in Europe. The banana was not a commercially viable crop outside of the tropics until the advent of steam powered transportation. Bear Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:54:26 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: RE: SC - Bananas? At 12:18 PM -0600 12/18/00, Decker, Terry D. wrote: >There are supposedly references to bananas in some of the Arab texts, but I >have not found the texts or translations. _The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti_ is based on an Arab text, of which I think the Latin version is Taciunum Sanitatas. It mentions bananas as being grown in Sicily, I believe, but the picture was pretty clearly drawn by someone who had never seen one. - -- David Friedman ddfr at best.com http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:59:12 -0800 (PST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Tina=20Nevin?= Subject: RE: SC - Bannana If you would like to see a photo of the Tudor trash heap bannana skin, take a peek at my webpage here: http://www.geocities.com/thorngrove/banana.jpg Ciao Lucrezia Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:00:08 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Bannana > Thanks Lucrezia. > Which museum is that from? > I am curious as to what they say about it's presence. > > Beatrice The Museum of London. Here's a further URL for your perusal: http://www.museum-london.org.uk/MOLsite/forum/lbc4.html I would point out that we really can not say the banana was eaten in England within the SCA period. A single banana peel represents an archeological anomaly. It may be of Tudor origin or it may be an intrusive artifact. If you want a banana recipe presumably medieval and Arabic, but of no provable provenance, try slicing a banana into a dish, add blanched almonds and honey, stir to mix, pour sesame oil upon it and serve it forth. For the experimental and not overly historically accurate, prepare them like wardens in syrup or bake them into a tart. Or, based upon Pliny's commentary, you might serve it in that most unusual of ways--raw. Bear Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 02:22:19 +0100 From: TG Subject: SC - Bananas I. The 11th century Taqwim al-Sihha of Ibn Butlan (Tacuin sanitatis) has an entry on bananas with one sentence on how to eat them. Here is a rough English paraphrase based on the Editor's French translation of his arab edition: - -- 'To eat it with sugar and honey helps to make good use of it (?). Make sure that the banana is ripe and thoroughly peeled and drink some perfumed wine afterwards' - -- "La manger avec du sucre et du miel aide ‡ la faire bien apprÈcier, surtout quand elle est m°re, bien pelÈe et suivie d'un vin parfumÈ". (Elkhadem 155) The strange pictures in the _Four seasons of the house of Cerruti_, David mentioned, might be explained by the fact that this passage was later understood to refer to a different kind of plant (Latin printed ed. 1531: musae, poma paradisi, German ed. 1533: Paradiesˆpffel). II. According to Maxime Rodinson's 'Recherches sur les documents arabes relatifs ‡ la cuisine' [1950; Inquiries into the arab texts pertinent to cookery], there are two recipes with bananas in the 'Kitab al-Wusla ila l-Habib' (Book of the connection to the friend; 12th century; later manuscripts). As far as I know, there is no edition of this text yet, but at least Rodinson's summary [On donne ci-dessous un sommaire du contenu de l'ouvrage; 130] indicates, that there _are_ two banana recipes: - -- 'Two dishes of meat with bananas' - -- "2 plats de viande aux bananes" (p. 138). Th. Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:51:12 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - What would you do? or 2 months to freak out > > Umm. I'd hate to see a possibly rare, even one-time import of some > > bananas used to justify the use of bananas as period. > > Havent seen any updates yet refuting it. AFAIK, there has been no conclusive finding with regard to the banana peel. Bananas were in use in the Middle East and Africa at the time. In the late 15th Century, Portuguese explorers found bananas on the West Coast of Africa and transplanted some to the Canary Islands. In 1517, banana shoots were transplanted from the Canaries to the New World. Because they are extremely perishable (10 to 12 days after cutting), they are more likely to have been used where they were grown than imported into Europe. The banana trade in the U.S. and Europe becomes a business only after the advent of reliable steam transportation. Bear Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:02:22 -0400 From: "Peters, Rise J." Subject: RE: SC - bananas What's even worse is that the bananas they would have been eating... those lovely things they grow in the Canaries -- taste completely different from what we buy at the supermarket. But they are over-ripe and brown within hours after they are removed from the trees, and when something has to be sacrificed for marketability/transportability, the something is always flavor. I ate bananas on Gomera, in the Canaries, until I just about popped.... and it was a long time before I could stomach the ones at home again. Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:58:08 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - bananas > I think Bear's main point was that until the creation of faster > transportation (steamship?), bananas just didn't last long enough to > get from their point of origin to England in an edible condition. > > Stefan li Rous I am of the opinion the banana peel is a period anomaly unless it can be reasonably demonstrated that it is an intrusive artifact. It was originally reported that the peel was encapsulated in the midden leading the excavating archeologists to believe it was not intrusive. The peel is anomalous because it is the only one discovered and there are no references to bananas being imported into England before the 19th Century. From Oviedo, we know that the Canary Islands had bananas in 1517 and that the priest who would later become the Bishop of Panama was the first person known to import banana shoots into the New World. The Canaries are within 10 days sail of England for a fast ship, so bananas could be imported from the Canaries (or Madeira, which is closer and probably also had bananas under cultivation). Bananas were known and eaten in the 16th Century. However, the idea that they could be a regular import into Europe is not very likely given the unreliablity of sea travel and the perishability of the fruit, especially when one considers the difficulties of getting the fruit to market even after the developement of steamships. Bear Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:14:09 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - bananas > I have read that bananas were eaten by Near Easterners in period, > however. So perhaps at a Near Eastern banquet, although i haven't > found a recipe that includes them yet. > > Anahita Thomas Gloning provided the following a while back: The 11th century Taqwim al-Sihha of Ibn Butlan (Tacuin sanitatis) has an entry on bananas with one sentence on how to eat them. Here is a rough English paraphrase based on the Editor's French translation of his arab edition: - - -- 'To eat it with sugar and honey helps to make good use of it (?). Make sure that the banana is ripe and thoroughly peeled and drink some perfumed wine afterwards' - -- "La manger avec du sucre et du miel aide · la faire bien apprªcier, surtout quand elle est mfre, bien pelªe et suivie d'un vin parfumª". (Elkhadem 155) According to Maxime Rodinson's 'Recherches sur les documents arabes relatifs · la cuisine' [1950; Inquiries into the arab texts pertinent to cookery], there are two recipes with bananas in the 'Kitab al-Wusla ila l-Habib' (Book of the connection to the friend; 12th century; later manuscripts). As far as I know, there is no edition of this text yet, but at least Rodinson's summary [On donne ci-dessous un sommaire du contenu de l'ouvrage; 130] indicates, that there _are_ two banana recipes: - - -- 'Two dishes of meat with bananas' - - -- "2 plats de viande aux bananes" (p. 138). While I came across a recipe in a 1920's textbook on bananas which purports to be Medieval and Arabic but has no provenance: slice a banana into a dish, add blanched almonds and honey, stir to mix, pour sesame oil upon it and serve it forth. Bear From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 08:35:19 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas and bowels IIRC, Pliny comments that over-indulgence in bananas caused loose bowels among Alexander's troops. Bear > Bananas are certainly a modern folk remedy for loose bowels. > > Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:15:54 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas > So, to recap, Gerard, on or slightly before 1597, received a banana fruit > shipped from Syria. It was preserved in a pickle solution. > > Johnson, on April 10, 1633, received a live banana plant with fruit cluster > shipped from the Bahamas. He picked the fruit stalk and hung it in his > shop. The fruit ripened about 3 weeks later, and didn't rot until June. > > We have, therefore, two viable methods for an intentional circa-1500s > import of a banana into England. Pickling of the ripe fruit, > or shipment of a fruiting live plant. > > Comments? > > Cindy Was the banana listed in the first edition of the Herball or was it added in a later revision? IIRC, the Herball was revised for a later edition and incorporated notes and occurrences from after the original publication. Quite a bit of the Herball was presumably taken from Rembert Dodoens' Cruydeboek (1554). Do you know whether or not the banana appears in the Cruydeboek? (I suspect not, but I've never seen a copy of Dodoens' work). Banana seeds are sterile. Banana trees reproduce by growing shoots from the root. Individual stalks die after producing one crop of bananas. Transplanted shoots account for bananas in the Canaries and in the New World. This is the first account I've seen of transporting a full banana stalk. I would think transporting a fruiting plant might be more difficult than transporting bunches of bananas, which may be why commercial production didn't appear in the 17th Century. The fact that it took 3 weeks for the fruit to ripen suggests that it was picked very early and that it may have been a cool spring. I also wonder if what was shipped wasn't a banana shoot and what arrived was a fruiting plant; however, since we don't know anything about the preparation or transit time from the Bahamas, that's pure speculation. Bear From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] bananas Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 17:09:16 -0500 Modern hybrids have been grown mainly to provide bigger fruit better able to stand transporting. They have nothing to do with the seeds being sterile. Ovieda reports that banana shoots were taken to the New World. Ergo, the period domesticated banana had sterile seeds. The botanical opinion is the banana was one of the first domesticated plants and that the sterility of the seeds occurred sometime in the Neolithic, improving the plant for human consumption and requiring human intervention to reproduce. IIRC, all members of the genus Musa including the plantain have sterile seeds and are considered domesticated. Other genera in the family Musacae have seeds of varying sizes and viability. Bear > Okay, but are you referring to a modern hybrid? or to period bananas? > Here are two messages from my fruit-bananas-msg file. Of course, it is > also possible they are really talking about the plantain. > > Stefan li Rous > stefan at texas.net From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 16:02:10 -0500 > My question, I suppose, would be are they talking about plantains or > bananas? Perhaps they are talking of both, but they are > different. If he hung the bunch in the window and they lasted that long I > would think he was talking about plantains. > > Olwen I hadn't considered that possibility. Plantains and bananas are both mentioned in Pliny and their migration into the Middle East and Africa were probably similar. We know when bananas were brought to the Caribbean because of Oviedo, but I don't know about plantains. Johnson's description is not complete enough to determine the species of Musa and he doesn't mention whether he cooked the banana or not when he tasted it. The comparison to muskmelon suggests that he ate the fruit raw, which in turn would suggest it was a banana as plantains are cooked. If he kept them hanging around for a month after they ripened, I would agree "the pulp or meat was very soft and tender..." Bear Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:51:40 +0200 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas - long >Was the banana listed in the first edition of the Herball or was it added in >a later revision? IIRC, the Herball was revised for a later edition and >incorporated notes and occurrences from after the original publication. If Johnson has put his indicators in the correct places, bananas were listed in the 1st edition, along with 2 illustrations, *Musa Serapionis* and *Musa Fructus*. Gerard says "In the middest of the top among the leaues commeth forth a soft and fungous stumpe, whereon do grow diuers apples in forme like a small Cucumber, and of the same bignesse, couered with a thin rinde like that of the Fig, of a yellow colour when they be ripe: the pulpe or substance of the meate is like that of the Pompion, without either seeds, stones, or kernels, in tast not greatly perceiued at the first, put presently after it pleaseth, and entiseth a man to eat liberally thereof, by a certaine entising sweetnes it yeelds: in which fruit, if it be cut according to the length (saith myne Author) oblique, transuerse, or any other way whatsoeuer, may be seen the shape and forme of a crosse, with a man fastned thereto. My selfe haue seene the fruit, and cut it in pieces, which was brought me from Aleppo [Syria] in pickle; the crosse I might perceiue, as the forme of a spred-egle in the root of Ferne; but the man I leaue to be sought for by those that haue better eyes and iudgment than my selfe." The fact that it turns yellow when it ripens, and that it seems to be being eaten raw, leads me to believe it is the banana and not the plantain that Gerard is describing. Under vertues (see below) he does mention adding ginger or other spice for those with cold constitutions. Johnson then adds "Aprill 10. 1633. my much honored friend ). Argent (now President of the Colledge of Physitions of London) gaue me a plant he receiued from the Bermuda's: the length of the stalke was some two foot; the thicknesse thereof some seuen inches about, being crested, and full of a soft pith, so that one might easily with a knife cut it asunder. It was crooked a little, or indented, so that each two or three inches space it put forth a knot of some halfe inch thicknesse, and some inch in length, which incompassed it morre than halfe about; and vpon each of these ioints or knots, in two rankes one aboue another, grew the fruit, some twenty, nieteene, eithteene, &c. mor or lesse, at each knot: for the branch I had, contained nine knots or diuisions, and vpon the lowest knot grew twenty [fruits], and vpon the vppermost fifteene. The fruit which I receiued was not ripe, but greene, each of them was about the bignesse of a large Beane; the length of them some fiue inches, and the bredth some inch and halfe... This stalke with the fruit thereon I hanged vp in my shop, were it became ripe about the beginning of May, and lasted vntil Iune: the pulp or meat was very soft and tender, and it did eate somewhat like a Muske-Melon...This Plant is found in many places of Asia, Africke, and America, especially in the hot regions: you may find frequent mention of it amongst the sea voyages to the East and West Indies, by the name of Plantaines, or Platanus, Bannanas, Bonnanas, Bouanas, Dauanas, Poco, &c. Some (As our Author hath said) haue iudged it the forbidden fruit; other-some, the Grapes brought to Moses out of the Holy-land." Johnson has also added the figure Musae fructus exactior Icon, An exacter figure of the Plantaine fruit. Gerard also lists the place (Egypt, Cyprus, Syria, Tripolis, Canara, Decan Guzarate, Bengala, East Indies), time, names ("It is called *Musa* by such as trauell to Aleppo: by the Arabians, *Musa Maum*: In Syria, *Mose*: The Grecians and Christians which inhabit Syria, and the Iewes also, suppose it to be that tree of whose fruit Adam did taste; which others thinke to be a ridiculous fable: of Pliny, *Opuntia*. It is called in the East Indies (as as Malauar where it also groweth) *Palan*: in Malayo, *Pican*: and in that part of Africa which we call Ginny, *Bananas*: in English, Adams Apple tree.") and temperature. He gets some of his information from Dioscorides and Serapio. Of the Vertues, Gerard adds "The fruit hereof yeeldeth but little nourishment: it is good for the heate of the breast, lungs, and bladder: it stoppeth the liuer, and hurteth the stomacke if too much of it be eaten, and procureth loosenesse in the belly: whereupon it is requisit for such as are of a cold constitution, in the eating thereof to put vnto it a little Ginger or other spice. Cindy From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas - long Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 22:01:05 -0500 They were found in India by Alexander's troops about 325 BCE. According to various references, they most probably originated in SE Asia and were spread to China, India, Africa and the Pacific during various migrations. Bear > For what it's worth, the Larousse Gastronomique lists > the origin of Plantain (both vegetable and fruit > varieties) as natives of India. Of course, there are > no references as to where the information came from. > > Balthazar of Blackmoor From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas - long Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 18:06:48 -0500 Thanks for all the information, Cindy. I'll be adding it to my notes. I remembered the quote from Oviedo as mentioning shoots, but I was in error. That comes of trying to work off the top of my head. I'm including the quote translated from Oviedo and some information about the commercial trade in bananas which helps provide insight into the problems of transporting bananas. Bear "There is a fruit here which is called "Plantanos"...nor did they use to be in the Indies but were brought hither....Obe hears on all sides that this special kind was brought from the Island of Gran Canaria in the year 1516 by the Reverend Father Friar Tomas de Berlanga of the Oreder of Predicadores, to this city of Santo Domingo whence the spread to other settlements of this island and to all other islands peopled by Christians. And they have even been carried to the mainland and in every part they have flourished....The first ones were brought, as has been said, from Gran Canaria, and I saw them there in the very monastery of San Francisco in the year 1520. Also they are in the other Fortunate of Canary Islands and I have heard say they are found in the city of Almeria in the Kingdom of Granada. They say that this plant was passed thence to the Indies and that to Almeria it came from the Levant and from Alexandria and East India." Oviedo, y Valdez, Gonzales Fernandes de, "Historia general y natural de las Indies, Islas y Tierra-Firma del Mar Oceano"; Toledo, 1526. "Bananas were first imported commercially into England in small quantities from Madeira in 1878 and from the Canary Islands in 1882, but were regarded as exotic rarities. In 1884 the total importations into England were about 10,000 bunches. In 1892, Arthur H. Stockley and A. Roger Ackerly for Elder, Dempster and Company, began importations from the Canary Islands, and about this time Fyffe, Hudson and Company also started to import bananas from these islands. During the next decade the fruit passed from what might be termed the 'luxury stage' to that of an everyday food. "Minor C. Keith about 1896 or 1897, commenced trial shopments of Costa Rica bananas from New York to Liverpool in the fastest avialable Atlantic liners of the time. The bunches, with the ends of the stems covered in asphaltum, were packed in dried banana leaves and placed in crates of boxes. One thousand to two thousand bunches were shipped weekly in this manner and the fruit sold at auction at Covent Garden, London. Some of the fruit arrived in good shape and sold as high as the equivalent of fifteen dollars a bunch, but too often it arrived in spoiled condition. At the end of a three-year period, Keith found that he had lost some $15,000 in the venture and stopped shipments. "In 1901, the Imperial Direct Line between Bristol and Jamaica was started by Sir Alfred Jones, Chairman of Elder, Dempster and Company, and steamships, especially fitted with refrigerating apparatu, loaded at Jamaica a cargo of about 25,000 bunches once a fortnight." Reynolds, Philip Keep, "The Banana, Its History, Cultivation and Place Among Staple Foods;" Houghton Mifflin Co., New York, 1927. "Immediately upon the arrival at the wharf of the first trainload of bananas, the loading of the steamship begins and continues day and night without interruption until completed....The cutting orders and the train schedules are arranged so that a continuous flow of fruit is assured. A cargo of 85,000 bunches is dispatched in about fifteen hours. "...Each class of fruit is ususally put by itself. Bunches are stowed on end, resting on the lower end (butt) of the stalk in from one to four tiers in the following manner; one, two or three standing (end to end); one two or three standing and one flat; or, one, two ro three standing and two flat. The spaces between bunches, between hands and stalks, and between the fingers, form natural channels for the circulation of air. "...All ironwork is properly sheather, and rough surfaces as well as sharp edges are eliminated to prevent bruising and discoloration of the fruit. "Each compartment is divided into bins of convenient size by verticle wooden partitions of open construction called "shifting boards" (similar to the old farm gate). These wooden bars, or bin boards, keep the fruit from shifting and from becoming crushed from the roll and pitch of the ship in heavy weather. "Refrigeration, as applied to banana cargos, is the treatment of the fruit with cooled and properly conditioned air, and should not be confused with the customary cold-storage operation in which low temperatures are essential. "In transporting banana cargoes in good condition, there are three principal opposing factors to be met, i.e., heat, humidity, and vitiated air. At the beginning of a voyage when the hatched are closed, these three factors are exerting their maximum influence against the fruit. During this time the temperatures of the outside atmosphere and of the sea-water are at their maximum. This is the most critical period for the banana cargo, and quick control of temperatures, with full efficiency of refrigeration, is imperative. As the impure atmosphere created by the respiration of the fruit has a potent ripening influence, ir is essential that the air in the holds be kept fresh, especially during the period of temperature reduction. "...It is the usual practice to "pre-cool" the holds of a refrigerated steam-ship for a period of twelve hours just prior to loading. When the vessel is loaded, every effort is made to reduce the temperature to the desired drgree in the briefest time possible... "...In the early stages of cooling, the amount of heat given off by the average cargo of bananas is about 8,000,000 British thermal units per hour. "...According to the distance, route, and speed of the vessel, the voyage from the various banana ports of Central America and Jamaica to New Orleans, Mobile or Galveston consumes from there to five days; to Boston, New York, Philadelphia, or Baltimore, about seven or eight days; and to British and Continental ports, fifteen or sixteen days. On account of the longer ocean voyage, the bananas shipped to the European market are of a slightly thinner grade (less fully developed) that those sent to the United States." Temperatures in Fahrenheit 56 Holding ripe bananas 58 Holding green bananas 60 Slow ripening 62 to 66 Normal ripening 68 Fast or forced ripening 72 or over Danger of cooking Reynolds, Philip Keep, "The Banana, Its History, Cultivation and Place Among Staple Foods;" Houghton Mifflin Co., New York, 1927. To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org, "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas From: Kirrily Robert Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 21:48:59 -0400 >however, since we don't know anything about the preparation or >transit time from the Bahamas, that's pure speculation. Trans-atlantic sailing time in that period was 6-12 weeks, depending on exactly where you're going from/to and weather conditions, IIRC. -- Kirrily 'Skud' Robert - skud at infotrope.net - http://infotrope.net/ From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] more on bananas Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:42:45 -0500 > The April issue of "BBC History Magazine" has in their calender for April 10: > "1633: The first bananas imported to England go on sale." > -- > THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra April 10, 1633 to be precise. This is the bunch of bananas displayed in the shop of Thomas Johnson, who edited Gerard's Herball. Without the additional information, the implication is that this is the start of continuous commercial banana sales in England. It isn't. The first commercial importations were from Madeira in the 19th Century. They were an exotic fruit, expensive and not widely consumed. Even with steamships in the 19th Century, a lot of the bananas which reached England from South America spoiled in transit. The English trade in bananas became commercially viable in the late 19th Century with air conditioned, steam powered, banana freighters. Bear From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] more on bananas Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:45:48 -0500 It is identified as a banana peel in the popular press, who presumably got the information from the archeologists. I believe it was examined by a qualified archeobotanist, but would need to verify that. AFAIK, the official report hasn't been published. Bear > Quick question: Are we all sure this was a banana > peel discovered in an English midden, and not a > plantain peel? The latter, IIRC, ripen much, much > slower than bananas. > > Balthazar of Blackmoor From: Christina Nevin To: "'SCA Cookslist'" Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 12:10:14 +0100 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Tudor Plaintain/Banana debate I've been talking to one of the curators at the Museum of London, and she's told me they have just this week sent 2 samples of the skin off for DNA and Carbon 14 testing (only just got the funding). She also said she found a document 3 years ago about the importation of a whole range of exotic fruits, including the plaintain, which she is hoping to publish with the results of the analysis. She said she'd get back to me (probably in a few months) so further details will follow. Lucrezia ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia | mka Tina Nevin Thamesreach Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald | London, UK Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 07:28:16 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dayboard-like Fighter Food To: Cooks within the SCA I don't know about banana pudding, but, for the Mediterranean region during the Renaissance, according to Clifford Wright, in his "A Mediterranean Feast", bananas are period, having been introduced at least to southern Italy and Spain by the Arabs. Kiri Stefan li Rous wrote: > This is not period, but would fighters go for banana pudding? Bananas > are good because of the potassium they contain, right? > > Stefan Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:57:00 +0100 From: "Christina Nevin" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana WAS Images of Dining in Ireland 1581 To: "SCA-Cooks (E-mail)" Just a note to say the skin found in the Thames midden was actually a plantain, not a banana. I emailed the gentleman in charge at the museum just after the London Eats Out exhibition (which is when it was displayed) and he said DNA tests had proven it to be such. You can see a rather small photo of it (pre-digital camera days for me!) on my website here: http://www.thorngrove.net/athenaeum/eatsout4.htm ciao Lucrezia ======================================================================== Baronessa Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia | Christina Nevin Thamesreach Shire, Drachenwald | London, UK Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:28:52 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana WAS Images of Dining in Ireland 1581 To: "Cooks within the SCA" I would say it doesn't matter that the fruit is Musa paradisiaca rather then M. acuminata. Both fruits are tropical, don't travel very well (although the plantain may do better than the banana), and the closest source is the Canary Islands. The question is how did it get into a Tudor period midden? The chief difference is the plantain requires cooking before eating. It does occur to me that this may be a specimen taken from a private botanical garden rather than an exotic import. Bear > Just a note to say the skin found in the Thames midden was actually a > plantain, not a banana. I emailed the gentleman in charge at the museum > just after the London Eats Out exhibition (which is when it was displayed) > and he said DNA tests had proven it to be such. You can see a rather small > photo of it (pre-digital camera days for me!) on my website here: > http://www.thorngrove.net/athenaeum/eatsout4.htm > > > ciao > Lucrezia Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 14:58:38 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantains: Period for Old World? <<< So. I know bananas are Old World (Period for Asia, Africa, and the Middle/Near East). I was reading on Joe Pastry blog (http://joepastry.web.aplus.net/?blog=1&page=1&paged=2 ) that plantains are often for a lot of the things that normally use potatoes. I'm wondering if potatoes, when first brought back from the New World, were used in ways that they would have normally used plantains. >>> Plantains are primarily a food of East Asia, the Asiatic islands, South India, and East and Central Africa. Given the problems with raising various types of Musa and maintaining the fruit in transit, Middle Eastern use of the plantain was probably limited to those areas with close proximity to East Africa. To my knowledge there are no European recipes for plantains in period (and please don't confuse Musa and Plantago, they're two different critters sharing the same common name). Sweet potatoes (Ipomea batata) enter the scene first. They are encountered in the West Indies by Columbus. They are introduced into the slave trade by the Portuguese and are brought to Asia by them. They were probably introduced into the Phillipines, Japan and China by the Spanish in the middle of the 16th Century. Europeans knew sweet potatoes very well and ate them. At the time, they were referred to as potatoes or Spanish potatoes by the English. The white potato (Solanum tuberosum) wasn't encountered until the late 1530's and while samples were given to the Vatican gardens in the 1540's, it doesn't show up as a foodstuff in Europe until around 1570 and that as a single line in a hospital record. John Gerard recieves a sample in 1586 and Carolus Clusius gets one in 1587. While the white potato probably got a toe-hold during the Thirty Years War, it's not until the 18th Century that the white potato becomes a primary foodstuff in Europe. The history is such that it argues for late adoption of the potato elsewhere in the world. <<< This is confusing as I try to word it, so let me try again. Here's a supposition (which I'm not married to, and I'm just as happy to have it shot down as to have it triumphantly confirmed): 1. The Old World had recipes, techniques, or treatments that used plantains as the starch. >>> But not in Europe. <<< 2. Potatoes were brought from the New World to the Old World. >>> Around 1540 in Europe, but with little use before 1600 and no general adoption until the 18th Century. And there was probably no spread of the potato to areas using plantains prior to 1700. <<< 3. People weren't sure what to do with potatoes, so after a bit of suspicious glaring, they started to use them in the dishes that had originally used plantains. >>> Supposition. The people who first encountered potatoes observed the natives and knew how to prepare them. They were brought back, but not immediately adopted. By the time potatoes arrived in regions where plantains were eaten, the people bring them knew how to grow them and prepare them. <<< 4. Plantain use waned while potato use waxed. >>> I'd like to see the evidence for this one. Plantains are now grown in the West Indies, where they weren't before. Since plantains are still widely used, it is much more likely that potatoes were added to the diet rather than replacing plantains. <<< 5. Recipes evolved as time passed, sometimes very slowly and sometimes rapidly. >>> But only provably, if you have a series of recorded recipes. <<< 6. Now a dish that uses potatoes COULD conceivably be made with plantains instead, and it MIGHT be Period. (Documentably? Probably not, or someone would have surely crowed about it and done it by now, right? But it might be "reasonably Period" or "Peri-oid," right?) >>> Coulda, woulda, mighta, bunk. The known facts and time frame run against your supposition. I would suggest that it would fall in the category, "Fantasy Period." <<< Shoot me down fast, please, before I get really excited about trying something like this. Start with whether plantains are Old World, or whether they're a species of the Musa genus that only developed after bananas made it over to the New World, so I know whether this weird thought may have any basis whatsoever in reality. Judith >>> Bananas and plantains derive from seeded ancestors and have been domesticated for so long, they need human assistance to propogate. Bananas from the Canaries were transplanted to the New World by Fra Tomas Berlinga in 1516. Plantains arrive later, probably with the rise of the sugar plantations in the late 17th Century and the expansion of the African slave trade. Now for the one conradictory piece of evidence; the Tudor banana. A few years ago, during the archeological excavation of a Tudor midden in London, the diggers encountered a member of genus Musa in situ. This would place it in mid-16th Century London. Further investigation revealed that it is a plantain. Before you leap to any conclusions, let me point out that this find is an anomaly. It has no context of use or history, nor does it appear to have any relationship to any surrounding artifacts. There is a lot of speculation about where it came from with at least one group thinking it is from the West Indies and another Asia. My personal opinion is that it was harvested in the Canaries and was loaded on a fast ship for England (green Musa can survive about two weeks of unrefrigerated transit). There was a market for exotic fruit (oranges, lemons, etc.) in London and one of the researchers is looking into records for more information about exotic fruit in London. Prior to this find, the first known record of a Musa in London was in 1633. One banana stalk transported live from the West Indies, studied, and the fruit sold in a London grocery (owned by the man that edited and expanded Gerard's Herball). Bear Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 15:17:50 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantains: Period for Old World? <<< the John Gerard "The Herbal", p. 1514 to 1517, Chap. 136, "Of Adams Apple tree or the West Indian Plantaine." So it is old world in the late 1500s. >>> Don't you mean, "so it is "New World" in the 1500's?" BTW, the "Plantaine" referred to is a banana. The Portuguese are believed to have introduced African bananas into the Canary Islands in the mid-15th Century. Fra Tomas Berlinga introduced the banana into Dominica in the West Indies in 1516. (See Oviedo, IIRC) IIRC, bananas first appeared in the 1636 (I think I errored saying 1633 edition earlier) edition of Gerard. There is a specific date of April 10, 1633 for receipt of bananas from Bermuda in London in the entry. <<< Wouldn't people go by taste then by starch? Does plantain taste like a potato? I have understood the in "Germany" that the potatoe replaced the turnip in many dishes. De >>> Sounds like a reasonable supposition. Bear Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:33:08 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantains: Period for Old World? Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 12:30:29 -0500 From: Judith Epstein <<< So. I know bananas are Old World... I was reading... that plantains are often [used] for a lot of the things that normally use potatoes. I'm wondering if potatoes, when first brought back from the New World, were used in ways that they would have normally used plantains. >>> SNIP <<< 1. The Old World had recipes, techniques, or treatments that used plantains as the starch. 2. Potatoes were brought from the New World to the Old World. 3. People weren't sure what to do with potatoes, so after a bit of suspicious glaring, they started to use them in the dishes that had originally used plantains. 4. Plantain use waned while potato use waxed. 5. Recipes evolved as time passed, sometimes very slowly and sometimes rapidly. 6. Now a dish that uses potatoes COULD conceivably be made with plantains instead, and it MIGHT be Period. (Documentably? Probably not, or someone would have surely crowed about it and done it by now, right? But it might be "reasonably Period" or "Peri-oid," right?) >>> NO! Not in Near or Middle Eastern recipes. There ARE period recipes for bananas in the Arabic language corpus. They are sweets and appear to be made with "sweet" bananas, of which there are many varieties, even in the US where i live. I can get tiny red bananas, giant bananas called "pisang raja" in Indonesia, among others. And since Cavendish are suffering diseases these days due partly to the methods of commercial cultivation, other varieties are showing up. I lived in Indonesia for several years and got to eat many different kinds of bananas. In the Arabic language recipe corpus, i don't remember seeing recipes for plantains, although with well over 1,000 recipes we have, i could have missed one. Still, based on my experience cooking period Near and Middle Eastern food (which you lack), it seems highly unlikely that potatoes replaced plantains in any of these recipes for specific historical reasons. 1. Most New World ingredients didn't enter the Ottoman Empire - which encompassed most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt), the Levant (now Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel-Palestine, Iraq, and Anatolia) - or Persia and Central Asia until the ** 18th ** century. 2. By then the cuisines had already changed a GREAT deal, due to wars, immigration of peoples from one culture into areas inhabited by another, alterations in regional trade, etc. All this BEFORE your precious potatoes and tomatoes showed up. So potatoes, tomatoes, green (string) beans, and many many more did not enter 9th, or 10th, or 13th, or 15th, or 16th c. cuisines of the Near and Middle East. They entered late 18th c. cuisines, which, to reiterate, had changed enormously from those of 200 years earlier. I have read recipes comparisons between those of SCA period and those bearing the same or related names from the 17th, 18th, and 18th c., and the changes are astonishing. Many of the dearly beloved Middle Eastern dishes familiar to us are no older than the mid-to late 19th c. at the earliest, so barely more than 100 years old. If you want to know what potatoes and tomatoes replaced, you will need to study 18th c. Middle Eastern cuisine. They replaced nothing in 16th c. or earlier Near and Middle Eastern cuisines. -- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:55:41 -0500 From: Judith Epstein To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantains: Period for Old World? On Sep 1, 2009, at 1:52 PM, otsisto wrote: <<< Plantain are similar to bananas how would they have been exchanged with potatoes? Wouldn't people go by taste then by starch? Does plantain taste like a potato? I have understood the in "Germany" that the potatoe replaced the turnip in many dishes. De >>> That's the thing, plantains don't really have the sweetness that one associates with the more widely known Cavendish banana (what most US and Canadian folks tend to think of as the 'normal' banana). They've got a very faint banana taste, and yes, they do taste and feel a lot like potatoes. Judith Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 16:43:22 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantains and John Gerarde <<< the John Gerard "The Herbal", p. 1514 to 1517, Chap. 136, "Of Adams Apple tree or the West Indian Plantaine." So it is old world in the late 1500s. >>> << Don't you mean, "so it is "New World" in the 1500's?" BTW, the "Plantaine" referred to is a banana. >> < There is no page 1514 to 1517 in the Gerarde Herball of 1597. The index in that edition points to pages 337 to 347 for all sorts of plantains but not the kind of plantain we are speaking of. The quote above seems to refer to the 1636 edition. See: http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/33580 (page 1514 ...) E. > Thank you, Emilo. I thought that bananas first appeared in Thomas Johnson's revision of Gerard's Herball. Johnson was a botanist and a merchant. It was he who received the banana stalk from Bermuda and later sold the fruit in his store window and the entry on the "West Indian Plantaine" is probably all his. I've got both a 1633 and a 1636 publication date for that edition, so perhaps Johnna can help settle that diswcrepency. Bear Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 18:14:10 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] plantain, bananas, herbals <<< I have eaten bananas but I guess I have never ever seen a plantain fruit in my life ... What is the modern scientific name of the plant we are looking after and what might have been the names used in the early English, Italian, Latin, German, Dutch ... what else? ... herbals? E. >>> Musa paradisiaca is the plantain or cooking banana. Musa acuminata is the eating banana AKA banana. In earlier taxonomies, the banana may appear as Musa sapientium. Bear Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 18:49:14 -0500 From: Stefan li Rous To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantains: Period for Old World? Bear has given a good summary of the banana/plantains questions and then said: > You might want to check out bananas in the Florilegium. A more complete history of the banana and its current perils (the Cavendish could be commercially extinct within 30 years), can be found in this book: Banana: The Fate of the Fruit That Changed the World Koeppel, Dan ISBN: 1-59463-038-0 Hudson Street Press New York From Publishers Weekly The world's most humble fruit has caused inordinate damage to nature and man, and Popular Science journalist Koeppel (To See Every Bird on Earth) embarks on an intelligent, chock-a-block sifting through the havoc. Seedless, sexless bananas evolved from a wild inedible fruit first cultivated in Southeast Asia, and was probably the apple that got Adam and Eve in trouble in the Garden of Eden. From there the fruit traveled to Africa and across the Pacific, arriving on U.S. shores probably with the Europeans in the 15th century. However, the history of the banana turned sinister as American businessmen caught on to the marketability of this popular, highly perishable fruit then grown in Jamaica. Thanks to the building of the railroad through Costa Rica by the turn of the century, the United Fruit company flourished in Central America, its tentacles extending into all facets of government and industry, toppling banana republics and igniting labor wars. Meanwhile, the Gros Michel variety was annihilated by a fungus called Panama disease (Sigatoka), which today threatens the favored Cavendish, as Koeppel sounds the alarm, shuttling to genetics- engineering labs from Honduras to Belgium. His sage, informative study poses the question fairly whether it's time for consumers to reverse a century of strife and exploitation epitomized by the purchase of one banana. (Jan.) Copyright ? Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved. After reading this book, well I'm almost through, I now understand the term "banana republic" and the justified opinion of many in South and Central America about the United States and its politics in favor of American company exploitation, including Reagan-era meddling. Stefan -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:46:53 -0700 From: David Friedman To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantains: Period for Old World? I don't believe I have seen any period recipes using plantains. Al-Warraq has a banana recipe that I'm tempted to try at our next cooking workshop, and it's conceivable that he might use the same word for bananas and plantains--it's a dessert, bananas layered with thin flatbread and sugar, drenched with rosewater, and baked underneath a chicken (to get the drippings). The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti (14th c. Italian) has a reference to bananas and a picture. It's clear that neither the author of the text, which is itself based on a much earlier Arabic text, nor the artist has ever seen one. The text does say that they are known in Sicily, however (as well as Cyprus and the Holy Land). -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 03:18:09 -0500 From: "otsisto" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantain, herbals, John Gerarde The John Gerard herbal has both plantago and musa. Gerard does say that his first intro to plantain was in pickled form. Later he writes that it could be eaten with ginger or spices. -----Original Message----- Is the "plantain" mentioned in one or more of the various 16th century herbals? They often mention culinary uses. There is A catalogue of plants cultivated in the garden of John Gerard http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/30619 E. ----- Plantain shows up in the herbals, but they are often talking about ragwort (Plantago) rather than bananas (Musa). Bear Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 07:00:46 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] plantain, bananas, herbals <<< Because the plantain had to make it from Asia to Africa. There are two ways of doing that: going through the Near East, or going by sea. >>> Bananas and plantains probably arrived in Africa via Madagascar and were transferred inland into the Congo and from there to West Africa. <<< The presence of bananas in the Qur'an argues for them going through the Near East. >>> Bananas and plantains in Africa predate the Qur'an by at least 1000 years. It is believed they entered the African continent via water migraation between SE Asia and Madagascar. There is some speculation that the Arabs encountered bananas through the slave trade in the Horn of Africa, however, I would point out that Arabs have been trading with South India since at least the 2nd Century BCE. The Qur'an reference is very late in the history of Arabs and bananas having been written in the 7th Century. Bear Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 08:47:46 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] plantain, bananas, herbals <<< According to the Big Black Book of Doom, which I know is unreliable about a lot of things but should provide at least a starting point for looking for other sources of information, all species of the Musa genus are indigenous to the tropical region of Southeast Asia. It's thought (again, citing Wikipedia) that Portuguese Franciscan friars are responsible for bringing the plantain to the Americas. FROM Africa. So, if that is accurate information (and yes, I know that's a BIG IF), that argues that plantains are Period for Southeast Asia, Africa, and the cute little territory that lies between them (Near East). >>> << I don't follow that. The are period for Southeast Asia. They may be period for Africa, if the friars brought them to the Americas from there before 1600. But how does that make them period for the Near East? Incidentally, I'm not sure how (or if) people in this discussion are distinguishing "near east" from "middle east." I think of them as roughly synonymous. -- David/Cariadoc >> You're looking at Wikipedia error and a failure to more thoroughly research the subject. Bananas and plantains are believed to have entered Africa via sea migration from SE Asia to Madagascar, then been spread through the Congo to West Africa. The Portuguese are believed to have found bananas in West Africa and transplanted them to the Canary Islands. The Canary Islands were seized by Spain in the 15th Century. Banana shoots were transplanted to Santo Domingo in 1516 by the Spanish Fra Tomas de Berlanga (I've also seen it spelled Berlinga, but the Catholic Encyclopedia uses Berlanga). Fra Tomas was a Dominican and he is specifically credited with this in Oviedo's work on the West Indies (1523 or 1526, IIRC). The assumption that bananas came to Africa from the Near East is easily dispelled by recent archeological work that has pushed back the existence of bananas in Southern Africa from 3rd Century BCE to 8th Century BCE (if I correctly understood the dating technique). The locale reinforces the sea migration theory. Bear Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 08:11:32 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantain, herbals, ----- Original Message ----- From: "otsisto" *I had assumed that when I said SCA period that it was specifying European, and Mediterranean with the possible inclusion of middle and far East. To my understanding plantain musa originated in Malaysia and India and moved along with the banana and yam westward. I found one research that says that hybridizing of the banana and plantain has been going on since before the middle ages and that they had found that the two original Musas from which all musa hybrids come from are Musa balbisiana and Musa acuminata. In their research they had found that quite a few horticulturalist and herbals misnamed, wrong identification or lumped together the banana and plantian. ******************** The earliest evidence of banana domestication is found in Papua New Guinea and dates from 6000-5000 BCE. The cultivated bananas (those requiring human intervention) may have begun there or have been developed from bananas from New Guinea being spread through Indonesia, Malaysia and into SE Asia. All cultivated Musa (as opposed to all Musa hybrids) are hybrids between M acuminata and M. balbisiana. The original hybridization was natural and took place well before the Middle Ages. These hybrids are diploidal, triploidal and tetraploidal, meaning they have two, three or four sets of chromosomes. For example, you find a Musa taxonomic name followed by (ABB), you are looking at a triploidal hybrid with one set of M. acuminata chromosomes and two sets of M. balbisiana chromosomes. The eating or dessert bananas fall into the (AAA) group while the rest are generally considered cooking bananas. For our purposes, we can probably ignore the tetraploidal hybrids as modern. Prior to Linneaus (1737), there was no taxonomic distinction between bananas and plantains, which is why herbal information on the cultivated bananas can be very confusing. Linnean taxonomy places the cultivated bananas as Musa paradisiaca with the eating bananas being M. paradisiaca ssp. sapientium. Modernly, eating bananas, being triploidal M. acuminata, are considered to be M. acuminata although the Linnean taxonomy has also been retained. Bear Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 12:33:57 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] plantain, bananas, herbals Ranvaig wrote: <<< A savory dish with a banana type fruit sounds more like plantain. Is there evidence that sweet bananas are meant? This is out of my area of expertise, but are early bananas as sweet as current ones? >>> If you are referring to the dish Cariadoc mentioned of cooking a chicken so its juices drip onto a tray of bananas and ruqaq (very thin flatbread), i addressed this is a reply, mentioning other recipes for this dish, Judhaba. A cooking tray is lined with flatbread and topped with something sweet, often something toothachingly sweet: fanid = taffy made of sugar, sometimes with nuts; crushed nuts and sugar; lauzinaj which i didn't describe but have discussed on this list - it is some sort of wrapper described in poetry of its day as gossamer as a grasshopper's wing filled with crushed nuts and sugar. Sometimes the sweets are topped with another layer of ruqaq, but not necessarily. While the recipes may not discuss how the dish is eaten, the humorous stories of its day that i mentioned do describe how the roasted chicken is eaten at the same time with the dripping-enriched bread and taffy or other very sugary sweet. One recipe calls for bananas, the bananas are coated with batter and fried until crisp and golden. From experience, i know this brings out the sweetness of the bananas. So comparing other recipes for Judhaba and the cooking method for the banana version, i am quite convinced that sweet bananas were used. -- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 15:51:30 -0700 From: David Friedman To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] plantain, bananas, herbals <<< A cooking tray is lined with flatbread and topped with something sweet, often something toothachingly sweet: fanid = taffy made of sugar, sometimes with nuts; crushed nuts and sugar; lauzinaj which i didn't describe but have discussed on this list - it is some sort of wrapper described in poetry of its day as gossamer as a grasshopper's wing filled with crushed nuts and sugar. Sometimes the sweets are topped with another layer of ruqaq, but not necessarily. >>> Note that lauzinaj can also mean just the crushed nuts and sugar, without the wrapper, which might make more sense here. Speaking of which, I did some experimenting on the wrapper--cooked from a batter as thin as milk, on a pan that is "greased" with beeswax--a while ago. I can get something that fits the grasshopper's wing description, but it's brittle, so won't wrap things. I can get something flexible, but it's basically a thin crepe. I've been wondering if perhaps the solution is to make the brittle version, damp it down to make it flexible, wrap the filling in it, then let it try. But I haven't tried that yet. -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 15:31:30 -0700 (PDT) From: emilio szabo To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] banana While surfing for something completely different, I stumbled upon this article: http://web.fu-berlin.de/phin/phin1/p1t1.htm For those of you with a basic command of German and Romance languages, there _might_ be something to add to the history of bananas and its near relatives. E. From: "emma at huskers.unl.edu" Date: July 14, 2010 4:12:12 PM CDT To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu Subject: [CALONTIR] bananas http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/370550.stm Older than I thought (Mid 15th C, not early 16th) and in a trash heap, not a toilet. And the article suggests that they may actually have been common. Jane Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 22:09:26 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another, older, banana found in London This is a find that has been previously discussed on the list (originally in 2001), rather than a new discovery. The 1999 date is important because it is close to the time of the actual dig. Several years after the discovery, the banana was genetically determined to be a plantain (if memory serves). The article pre-dates the lab work, which means that the author only had access to the tentative identification and further research negated the probability of it being a sweet banana. The poster on the Calontir list makes the error of assuming the plantain was deposited in the mid-15th Century. The site is a midden which, IIRC, was a fish market with live tanks, that was abandoned in the 15th Century and became a trash dump. The plantain was located at a level of the midden placing it in the early to middle 16th Century and it was determined not to be a more modern intrusive artifact. Hmmm, "fish ponds in Southwark" is the article description of the site. One of the people on the project started a paper on exotic fruit being marketed during the Tudor dynasty, but I haven't heard anything more about it. Bear -----Original Message----- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/370550.stm Older than I thought (Mid 15th C, not early 16th) and in a trash heap, not a toilet. And the article suggests that they may actually have been common. Jane Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:00:59 -0500 From: Stefan li Rous To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another, older, banana found in London Thank you Bear for the update on the genetic testing of this "banana". I hadn't heard of it testing out to be a plantain. But even if it is a plantain, I'm still wondering how common it was in England or the continent. And if it was, what happened? Plantains aren't very common in the Europe or the US now. Did the Cavendish banana drive off all the competitors? Afterall, you can cook bananas or eat them raw, which you can't do with a plantain. And this particular banana is sweeter. In case folks aren't aware of it, almost all commercial bananas are identical, genetic clones of the same asexual plant. Mankind has so modified the plant that it cannot reproduce by seeds. Which is why commercial banana crops are in danger of being wiped out whenever a pest manages to adapt to the environment of the plant. Very interesting book: Banana: The Fate of the Fruit That Changed the World Koeppel, Dan ISBN: 1-59463-038-0 304 pages, 2008 "From Publishers Weekly The world's most humble fruit has caused inordinate damage to nature and man, and Popular Science journalist Koeppel (To See Every Bird on Earth) embarks on an intelligent, chock-a-block sifting through the havoc. Seedless, sexless bananas evolved from a wild inedible fruit first cultivated in Southeast Asia, and was probably the apple that got Adam and Eve in trouble in the Garden of Eden. From there the fruit traveled to Africa and across the Pacific, arriving on U.S. shores probably with the Europeans in the 15th century. However, the history of the banana turned sinister as American businessmen caught on to the marketability of this popular, highly perishable fruit then grown in Jamaica. Thanks to the building of the railroad through Costa Rica by the turn of the century, the United Fruit company flourished in Central America, its tentacles extending into all facets of government and industry, toppling banana republics and igniting labor wars. Meanwhile, the Gros Michel variety was annihilated by a fungus called Panama disease (Sigatoka), which today threatens the favored Cavendish, as Koeppel sounds the alarm, shuttling to genetics-engineering labs from Honduras to Belgium. His sage, informative study poses the question fairly whether it's time for consumers to reverse a century of strife and exploitation epitomized by the purchase of one banana. (Jan.) Copyright Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved. Review "Clear, engaging…admirable…part historical narrative and part pop-science adventure." -San Francisco Chronicle --This text refers to the Paperback edition." Stefan -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 22:20:01 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another, older, banana found in London <<< Thank you Bear for the update on the genetic testing of this "banana". I hadn't heard of it testing out to be a plantain. >>> Take this with a grain of salt. It was from a little news squibb I can no longer locate. It might be interesting to see if the Museum of London has released a paper(s) on the finds in the Southwark dig. <<< But even if it is a plantain, I'm still wondering how common it was in England or the continent. And if it was, what happened? Plantains aren't very common in the Europe or the US now. Did the Cavendish banana drive off all the competitors? Afterall, you can cook bananas or eat them raw, which you can't do with a plantain. And this particular banana is sweeter. >>> Not very common. About the closest source for bananas and plantains is the Canary Islands. With fair winds, a fast ship can make the passage from the Canaries to London in 10 to 12 days (or so I have been lead to believe). Without refrigeration, freshly cut bananas last about 14 days, which suggests that probably were a small part of any cargo and would only be carried on the fastest ships. This in turn suggests that bananas were likely uncommon in most of Europe. When the banana trade took off in the 19th Century, the most common banana was the Gros Michel (hope I didn't butcher the spelling). This was replaced by the Cavendish banana, IIRC, because the Cavendish travels and stores better. <<< In case folks aren't aware of it, almost all commercial bananas are identical, genetic clones of the same asexual plant. Mankind has so modified the plant that it cannot reproduce by seeds. Which is why commercial banana crops are in danger of being wiped out whenever a pest manages to adapt to the environment of the plant. Stefan >>> The sweet banana is one of the oldest hybrids in the world, extending back over 5,000 years. We haven't any idea when or where the hybridization, but the evidence suggests that man's cultivation of the banana began before the developement of continuous agriculture. Bear Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 11:59:34 -0700 From: David Friedman To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe With all the posts on bananas, I didn't notice any period recipes for them, perhaps because most of the posters are from barbarian lands on the fringes of the civilized world, where such things are more rumor than ingredient. My memory is that the illustration in the _Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti_ suggests that the artist had never seen one. --- A recipe for Judhaba of bananas by Ibn al Mahdi Al-Warraq p. 375 Peel the bananas and set them aside. Spread a ruqaqa (thin round of bread) in the pan and spread a layer of bananas over it. Sprinkle the banana layer with pure sugar, and spread anotehr ruqaqa all over it. Repeat the layering of banana, sugar, and ruqaqa until the pan is full. Pour enough rose water to drench the layered ingredients, [put the pan in a hot tannur,] suspend a fine chicken over it, [and let it roast] God willing. Bananas: 40 ounces. Ruqaqa: 10 oz iranian thin bread Sugar: _ c _ water 2T rose water Oil the bottom of the pan. Make four layers of sliced (or mashed) bananas sprinkled with sugar, alternating with thin bread, pour in rose water on top. Arrange with the chicken on a wooden spit above the layers so the drippings fall on them. Cook for about 1-2 hours at 325?. -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 17:28:59 -0700 From: David Friedman To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe We have done it. It is good. I did wonder, looking over the original, if I wasn't using too little rosewater to fit the description. <<< Have you tried this recipe? With so much rosewater, is the dish overly flowery or does the long cooking time cook off most of the rose flavor? Grace >>> -- David Friedman www.daviddfriedman.com daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 21:30:38 -0700 From: David Friedman To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe > Are we talking eating bananas or plantains? The translation says bananas and that's how we did it--whether the translation is correct I do not know. Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 06:15:12 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe On Jul 20, 2010, at 5:09 AM, yaini0625 at yahoo.com wrote: <<< Have you discussed the origins of bananas? I was under the impression that bananas or platains were New World or Malaysian in origins. Aelina >>> http://www.enotes.com/food-encyclopedia/banana-plantain Encyclopedia of Food & Culture > Banana and Plantain "Many wild banana diploids and triploids are still abundant throughout southeastern Asia, with a primary area of origin in Malaysia and Papua New Guinea, while most of the plantains originated in India and the Philippines. In any event, both spread quickly to other tropical and subtropical regions of the world. The Fe'i bananas evolved throughout the Pacific islands from Indonesia to the Marquesas and still remain closely confined to the area. The main recognized milestones of these movements are: c. 500 C.E. ? Introduction to Africa from Indonesia (via Madagascar) c. 1000 C.E. ? Distribution throughout Polynesia and introduction to Mediterranean areas during Muslim expansion 1300s?1400s ? Introduction to the Canary Islands from West Africa 1516 ? First recorded introduction to the New World (Santo Domingo) from the Canary Islands" Johnnae Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 07:00:21 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: , "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe <<< Have you discussed the origins of bananas? I was under the impression that bananas or platains were New World or Malaysian in origins. Aelina >>> Bananas are Old World (probabaly SE Asian) in origin. Pliny notes that they were first encountered by Alexander's armies in India in 325 BCE, where they were part of the Indian diet. Oviedo notes that bananas were transplanted from the Canaries to the New World by Fra Tomas de Berlanga in 1517. Bear Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 07:24:10 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe <<< c. 500 C.E. ? Introduction to Africa from Indonesia (via Madagascar) c. 1000 C.E. ? Distribution throughout Polynesia and introduction to Mediterranean areas during Muslim expansion 1300s?1400s ? Introduction to the Canary Islands from West Africa 1516 ? First recorded introduction to the New World (Santo Domingo) from the Canary Islands" Johnnae >>> They can push that 500 CE date back to about 800 BCE and probably further. Archeological excavation has demonstrated that banana cultivation in Africa has been around a lot longer than previously thought. The introduction of bananas into the Canary Islands is probably between 1425, when the Portuguese claimed the islands and 1479, when the Spanish landed to take the islands from Portugal. 1516. For some reason I keep remembering the date as 1517, although 1516 is correct. Bear Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:35:53 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe This is from Encyclopedia of Food & Culture which is now online. I have no idea when the entry was written. They may have been going with the earliest accepted date for the introduction. The articles are researched and footnoted. Well you can call it up and see for yourself. It's very nice anyway to have the Encyclopedia of Food & Culture online as it was a very expensive set. Johnna On Jul 20, 2010, at 8:24 AM, Terry Decker wrote: << c. 500 C.E. ? Introduction to Africa from Indonesia (via Madagascar) Johnnae >> <<< They can push that 500 CE date back to about 800 BCE and probably further. Archeological excavation has demonstrated that banana cultivation in Africa has been around a lot longer than previously thought. >>> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:08:16 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe Angharad wrote, re Judhaba of bananas by Ibn al Mahdi: <<< Hmmm, I don't like bananas but I can still see that would be kind of tasty. How necessary is the chicken? I mean could you get satisfactory results by basting by warm oil or butter? >>> The chicken hanging as it roasts over the platter of something sweet, into which the chicken juices drip, is essential to any Judhaba. Without it, it isn't really judhaba. There are quite a few other judhaba recipes, all involving a chicken hanging roasting over a tray of something sweet, Lauzinaj (crushed and sweetened almonds wrapped in pastry) for example. Then the chicken and the sweet are eaten together. Charles Perry has an amusing essay about this in Medieval Arabic Cookery. -- Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM] the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:23:53 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe Stefan wrote: <<< Master Cariadoc related a banana recipe and his redaction: A recipe for Judhaba of bananas by Ibn al Mahdi Al-Warraq p. 375 I'm assuming that the spit is in front of the fire with the layered bananas and bread underneath this. So it gets the drippings and some of the general heat from the fire, but not being over coals or a fire doesn't really bake. Or does it get browned from being this close to the fire? Or am I wrong about it not being over coals? In the latter case, it would seem to cook much faster than the chicken and risk being burned. Hmmm. But the original *is* is an oven (tannur), right? So maybe it is meant to get 'baked' more than it would be sitting in front of the fire. >>> It isn't spit roasted. It is cooked in an oven, with the chicken suspended over the tray of sweet stuff. It is, in its own odd way, sort of the medieval Arabic world equivalent to the much later English roast beef and Yorkshire pudding. Cariadoc did what he did because few of us have tannurs in our homes. One can get tannurs for the home now, in the US and UK, but one was quite a bit more expensive than i could afford. <<< Also, I'm not familiar with this cookbook, although we've probably discussed it here before. Where is it from and when? >>> Abu Muhammad al-Muzaffar ibn Nasr ibn Sayyar al-Warraq of Baghdad compiled a cookbook, al-Kitab al-Tabikh, Book of Dishes, in the 10th century, including recipes from the 9th and 10th centuries, as well as info on poems on food, etiquette, humors, table talk, etc. It was published in December 2007 by Brill, a scholarly publisher in the Netherlands, as translated and with commentary and glossaries by Nawal Nasrullah as Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens: Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's Tenth-century Baghdadi Cookbook (in the series: Islamic History and Civilization). I have used recipes from it, and it has been discussed on this list a number of times, before and after its publication. Some time ago, Charles Perry translated a few of its recipes, which Cariadoc included in... the Miscellany, i think... or else in Cariadoc's most useful collection of cookbooks. <<< It sounds interesting. I don't know where I could find this rugaga though. I wonder if flour tortillas or perhaps pits bread might make a reasonable substitute. >>> Lavosh is more appropriate. I have sometimes used white flour tortillas, but they are a bit different from ruqaq. Pita would be wrong wrong wrong. -- Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM] the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:50:30 -0700 From: David Friedman To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe Master Cariadoc related a banana recipe and his redaction: <<< A recipe for Judhaba of bananas by Ibn al Mahdi Al-Warraq p. 375 >>> Unfortunately, it looks like the digestifier didn't like some of the fractions. <<< Bananas: 40 ounces. Ruqaqa: 10 oz iranian thin bread Sugar: _ c _ water 2T rose water >>> Can you tell us again how much sugar and water you used? ============== Half a cup of each. But going back to the recipe and notes, I think the water is a mistake--a confusion from two different tries. The first time it was done at a cooking workshop, I think the person who did it diluted the rose water with water in order to drench without too much flavor, which doesn't fit the original instructions. The second time we used more rose water and no water. So the recipe shouldn't have water in it at all, just at least 2T of rose water. <<< I'm assuming that the spit is in front of the fire with the layered bananas and bread underneath this. So it gets the drippings and some of the general heat from the fire, but not being over coals or a fire doesn't really bake. Or does it get browned from being this close to the fire? Or am I wrong about it not being over coals? In the latter case, it would seem to cook much faster than the chicken and risk being burned. >>> We did it in the oven, which I believe is how they did it. <<< Hmmm. But the original *is* is an oven (tannur), right? So maybe it is meant to get 'baked' more than it would be sitting in front of the fire. Also, I'm not familiar with this cookbook, although we've probably discussed it here before. Where is it from and when? >>> Tenth century middle-eastern. Big. The translation came out a few years ago. <<< It sounds interesting. I don't know where I could find this rugaga though. I wonder if flour tortillas or perhaps pits bread might make a reasonable substitute. >>> We used the very thin bread you can get at Iranian grocery stores--I don't remember its name, but it seemed like the nearest equivalent we could think of. Much thinner than pita. -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:53:29 -0700 From: David Friedman To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe <<< Hmmm, I don't like bananas but I can still see that would be kind of tasty. How necessary is the chicken? I mean could you get satisfactory results by basting by warm oil or butter? Angharad >>> Our second try we used chicken fat and chicken broth instead of the chicken. My memory is that it wasn't bad, but probably not as good as actually roasting a chicken over it. -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:56:25 -0700 From: David Friedman To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe <<< Then the chicken and the sweet are eaten together. Charles Perry has an amusing essay about this in Medieval Arabic Cookery. -- Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM] the persona formerly known as Anahita >>> When I first encountered a judhaba recipe, a very long time ago, my ward Miriam proposed that it was a chicken timer--in the absence of clocks, you knew when the dish was done by when the chicken was done. -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 16:32:06 -0700 From: David Friedman To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Arabic cookery re: chicken dripping onto other foods... <<< Having a chicken roasting above other foods, as mentioned in the banana dish really makes this item look perfect. Of course it is designed to keep the chicken out of its drippings and crisp all around as well as to roast vegetables under, but it would be ideal for the Arabic sweets recipes aswell. http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/all-clad-ultimate-stainless-steel-chicken-roaster/ Yes, it is a bit pricey, but I'm now tempted to get one. >>> We got the same effect by using a large oval Le Creuset pan, sticking a skewer through the chicken, and resting the ends of the skewer on the edge of the pan at its ends. Banana etc. in the pan. -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 10:03:41 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Author's Name (was: Banana Recipe) Guillaume wrote: <<< In the discussion concerning the banana recipe, the name of the author was given as Ibn al Mahdi Al-Warraq. However, in the follow-up it was given as Abu Muhammad al-Muzaffar ibn Nasr ibn Sayyar al-Warraq. I am familiar with the latter and have not found a reference to the former online. I am a little confused on this point. Are these the same person, different people, or the result of a typo? Was the original citation from al-Kitab al-Tabikh (The Book of Dishes)? Will the real al-Warraq please stand up? >>> Actually, Cariadoc wrote: <<< A recipe for Judhaba of bananas by Ibn al Mahdi Al-Warraq p. 375 >>> This means the original recipe was from ibn al-Mahdi. His recipe was included in the vast compendium collected by ibn Sayyar al-Warraq. In this book many of the recipes are attributed (although this doesn't mean the attributions are always correct...). Nasrallah has a section with information about nearly everyone mentioned by al-Warraq. The period from which this book comes was something of a golden age for science, literature, philosophy, art, music, ... and gourmet cuisine (the 'Abbasids went downhill not too long after, although they remained nominally the caliphs). There were gatherings of wealthy and important men (women were generally excluded, as the Greeks did) who cooked (or had cooked for them) wonderful dishes, during which they spent much time not only eating but talking about food, composing poems (many included in al-Warraq's compendium), discussing philosophy, etc. Among these men was the son of a Caliph, Ibrahim ibn al-Mahdi, who was an 'Abbasid prince, famed as a gourmet, poet, and singer, after whom dishes were named, some apparently actually from him, others to share in the glow of his name, such as Ibrahimiyya. He was a brother of the famed Caliph Harun al-Rashid (r. 786-809) and both are mentioned in stories in The Thousand Nights and a Night (which are fictional). -- Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM] the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 07:15:30 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: [Sca-cooks] bananas Ok for your files and for curiosity sake, there are 23 references to banana or bananas in EEBO-TCP. Here are some of the more interesting selections: from 1597 Chap. 1. Of the situation of the Royall Cittie of the Kingdome of Congo. Other fruites there are, which they call Banana and we verily thinke to be the Muses of Aegypt and Soria, sauing that in those countreyes they growe to be as bigge as trees, but here they cut them yearely, to the end they may beare the better, The fruit is very sweet in smell, and of good nourishment. page 111 Lopes, Duarte. A report of the kingdome of Congo, a region of Africa. And of the countries that border rounde about the same... Drawen out of the writinges and discourses of Odoardo Lopez a Portingall, by Philippo Pigafetta. Translated out of Italian by Abraham Hartwell. 1597. --- from 1633 CHAP. 136. Of Adams Apple tree, or the West-Indian Plantaine. Musae fructus exactior Icon. An exacter figure of the Plantaine fruit. The Place. This admirable tree groweth in Egypt, Cyprus, and Syria, neere vnto a chiefe city there called Alep, which we call Aleppo, and also by Tripolis, not far from thence: it groweth also in Cana|ra, Decan, Guzarate, and Bengala, places of the East Indies. The Time. From the root of this tree shooteth forth yong springs or shoots, which the people take vp and plant for the increase in the Spring of the yeare. The leaues wither away in September, as is aboue said. The Names. It is called Musa by such as trauell to Aleppo: by the Arabians, Musa Maum: in Syria, Mose: The Grecians and Christians which inhabit Syria, and the Iewes also, suppose it to be that tree of whose fruit Adam did taste; which others thinke to be a ridiculous fable: of Pliny, Opuntia. It is called in the East Indies (as at Malauar where it also groweth) Palan: in Malayo, Pican: and in that part of Africa which we call Ginny, Bananas: in English, Adams Apple tree. Gerard, John, 1545-1612., Johnson, Thomas, d. 1644. The herball or Generall historie of plantes. Gathered by Iohn Gerarde of London Master in Chirurgerie very much enlarged and amended by Thomas Iohnson citizen and apothecarye of London. 1633 --- OED lists this as the earliest for the fruit. 1563 Garcia de Orta Simples e Drogues 93 b, Tambem ha estes figos em Guin?, chamam lhe bananas; ---- Plantain turns up much earlier in the OED as it was the name of some herbs (greater plantain with broad flat leaves) and a form known as long plantain. There was also a bastard plantain. Here are some 16th century mentions. (There are some dating back much earlier.) 1516 Grete Herbal cccxliv, Plantayne or weybrede..is an herbe that ye greke call arnoglosse. It is called also..grete plantayne, and groweth in moyst places & playne feldes; ribwort p., P. lanceolata. 1516 Grete Herbal cccxlv, Delanceolata... Longe plantayne is good agaynst fystales, yf the iuce be put in them dyuers dayes, it healeth and sleeth them. 1592 Shaks. Rom. & Jul; i. ii. 52 Romeo. Your Plantan leafe is excellent for that. Ben. For what I pray thee? Romeo. For your broken shin. --There's also a meaning associated with plane trees. Lastly is the definition "tree-like tropical herbaceous plant (Musa paradisiaca) closely allied to the Banana (M. sapientum)" and the fruit of this plant. 1555 Eden Decades ii. 197 (tr. of Italian version, 1534, of Oviedo's Spanish, 1526) There are also certeine plantes which the christians caul Platani. 1555 Eden Decades 197 This cluster owght to bee taken from the plant, when any one of the Platans begynne to appere yelowe. 1589 Parke tr. Mendoza's Hist. China (Hakl. Soc.) II. 330 Orange trees, siders, limas, plantanos, and palmas. 1604 E. G[rimstone] D'Acosta's Hist. Indies iv. (Hakl. Soc.) I. 241 The first that shall be needefulle to treate of is the Plantain, or Plantano, as the vulgar call it... The reason why the Spaniards call it platano (for the Indians had no such name) was, as in other trees, for that they have found some resemblance of the one with the other, even as they called some fruites prunes, pines, and cucumbers, being far different from those which are called by those names in Castille. 1634 Sir T. Herbert Trav. 183 Bananas or Plantanes. Johnnae Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:13:52 -0700 From: "Laura C. Minnick" To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bananas Just wanted to say, when I lived in Hawaii, there was a banana tree in our yard, next to the driveway. You HAVE TO pick the bananas while they are unripe, and then let them ripen. If you let them ripen on the tree, they split, and then they stink and attract all manner of flying and crawling things. And they're heavy and will pull the tree over into the driveway. I was still learning to drive, and hit the banana tree more than once backing out. Ick. Liutgard Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 09:03:59 -0400 From: Sam Wallace To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bananas "Bananas are cut just before ripening and shipped refrigerated. Once they come out of refrigeration you have roughly two weeks to sell them. That is why bananas only became a widespread commodity in the late 19th Century." Modern methods for controlling the ripening of fruits, including bananas, revolve around control of ethylene. Ethylene control is used in conjunction with humidity and temperature control to preserve fresh fruit and vegetables. Refrigeration alone will not do as good a job, especially in dealing with fungus and mold. I wonder what early records there are of ice being used in the transport of fruit. Also, I would be interested in finding early attempts at preserving bananas (canning or drying) or making banana extract so that the fruit might be present in spirit even if absent in the flesh. "The bananas that were sold in London in 1633 were a botanical sample shipped live as a small plant from the West Indies, allowed to mature, and harvested when ripe. Not a good commercial strategy." Actually, this can be a great commercial strategy. If you have the sole source of a novelty product that has good potential demand, you can charge quite a bit for it. In fact, this is the current situation in Alaska for a lot of their local fruit and vegetable production. One of our family friends has acres under glass. Guillaume Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 07:11:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Decker To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bananas Actually, this can be a great commercial strategy. If you have the sole source of a novelty product that has good potential demand, you can charge quite a bit for it. In fact, this is the current situation in Alaska for a lot of their local fruit and vegetable production. One of our family friends has acres under glass. Guillaume _______________________ I was referring to the problems of transportation and care in the Age of Sail. However, your customers need to know what you are selling and be willing to pay for it. The bananas in London in 1633 were definitely a curiosity, but whether they were a commercial success is another matter. When I was in Alaska most of our fruits and vegetables came in by Skyfreighter. Locally grown from the Matanuska Valley was better, but demand was too high and the growing season too short. Even with acres of greenhouses, I suspect that most of the tropical fruits come in by air. Bear Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 15:54:01 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] My upcoming feast... <<< Judhaba of Bananas (Arabic 10th c.) >>> This can wait until after the feast, but is this really bananas, or are these plantains? Stefan --------- It's really bananas, if it's the recipe of which I am thinking. Although you could replace the bananas with plantains with little effect on the dish. You take a round of bread, cover it with bananas, cover the bananas with sugar and repeat until you fill the pan. Drench the contents with rosewater. Place it in an oven with a chicken suspended above it. Roast. The judhaban is a large, low-sided pan used to cook various dishes under roasting meat. The dishes are named for the pan. Bear Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 07:44:40 -0500 From: Elaine Koogler To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] My upcoming feast... That's the one. And it was a great success. If bananas weren't already so loaded with sugar I'd make that as a dessert for here at home. I did cheat a bit and used puff pastry rather than "bread." Kiri On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Terry Decker wrote: <<< It's really bananas, if it's the recipe of which I am thinking. Although you could replace the bananas with plantains with little effect on the dish. You take a round of bread, cover it with bananas, cover the bananas with sugar and repeat until you fill the pan. Drench the contents with rosewater. Place it in an oven with a chicken suspended above it. Roast. The judhaban is a large, low-sided pan used to cook various dishes under roasting meat. The dishes are named for the pan. Bear >>> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:00:17 -0800 From: David Friedman To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] My upcoming feast... I used lavash, as the thin bread that seemed closest to what the recipe called for. Worked pretty well. The one problem I had was that drenching with rose water resulted in a stronger flavor than most people liked. Of course, I don't know how strong al-Warraq's rose water would have been. <<< That's the one. And it was a great success. If bananas weren't already so loaded with sugar I'd make that as a dessert for here at home. I did cheat a bit and used puff pastry rather than "bread." Kiri >>>