bananas-msg - 2/22/08
Period bananas. Evidence for when and where they were known and used. Recipes.
NOTE: See also the files: fruits-msg, fruit-apples-msg, fruit-quinces-msg, nuts-msg, sugar-msg, vegetables-msg, fruit-melons-msg, pomegranates-msg, fruit-citrus-msg.
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This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
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Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: ayotte at milo.NOdak.EDU (Robert Arthur Ayotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period fruits?
Date: 8 Dec 1993 08:02:24 -0500
Organization: North Dakota State University ACM, Fargo ND
: But no bananas or pineapple unless you get to Africa.
: My secondary source research (Tanahill, and the Encyclopedia Britannica)
: told me that Bananas were exported to the New World at the end of period by
: the Spanish and Portuguese, where bananas themselves are indigenous to Asia
: and not Africa. Do you have more information? I found these sources to be
: sufficient to convince me to work with banana, but I could be convinced
: either way.
According to McGee, bananas were native to india and malaya, it arrived in Africa around 500 AD. Europeans knew it as the indian fig.
Bananas originally had fairly large seeds, and in some
parts of the world they can still be found growing wild with the black
seeds taking up nearly 1/3 of their interior.
Somewhere I remember hearing that bananas were known in Rome, but
were not considered fitting food for humans. The date would have been
sometime around the time of the first Ceasers.
: It is safe to say, however, that modern bananas are not even close to period
: ones, its true. But they are closer to period bananas than, say modern pears
: would be...
: Tibor (ever-learning)
: --
: Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy at math.harvard.edu)
The seeds in bananas are rock hard and vary from 1/4 inch to
almost 1/2 inch. How the seedless varieties were found is unknown.
Horace
From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period fruits?
Date: 8 Dec 1993 16:44:52 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Robert Arthur Ayotte <ayotte at milo.NOdak.EDU> wrote:
> Bananas originally had fairly large seeds, and in some
>parts of the world they can still be found growing wild with the black
>seeds taking up nearly 1/3 of their interior.
>almost 1/2 inch. How the seedless varieties were found is unknown.
>
>Horace
The "seedless" varieties are modern polyploid hybrids. (They actually do
have seeds, but they are small and infertile.) I learned something
fascinating in this regard in my university genetics course: statistically
speaking, something like one in every thousand (exact number forgotten)
bananas ought to have large, fertile seeds due to the proper combination
of ploidy in the gametes involved. Why don't we ever see _any_ in the
markets? Because fertile bananas are easily identifiable visually and
are removed from the bunch before being shipped. To get this back
more on topic, specialty groceries around here carry about a dozen
different varieties of non-standard bananas, but I have no idea whether
any of them are ones that would have been available.
Keridwen f. Morgan Glasfryn
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 15:41:44 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Fw: [TY] Fruits From 'New World'
> My questions are:
> 1) Approximatley when did the Pineapple reach England (and
> surrounding areas)?
According to the quick ref, Columbus introduced the pineapple (Ananascomosus) to Spain in 1493. I haven't seen anything as to when the pineapple reached England, but I suspect it is in the 17th Century, after England establishes colonies in the Caribbean.
> 2) Waht other 'New World' fruits were discovered and when...
Also attached to Columbus' return in 1493 is the plantain (Musaparadisiaca), a relative of the banana. The fruit is similar to the fruit of genus Plantago which appears to have been cultivated in Europe at the time and was also known as plantain.
> -Ly. Ganna
Bear
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 16:32:22 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Bananas (was RE: SC - Hummus and Other Questionably Period Foods)
At 2:38 PM -0400 7/5/99, Michelle \"TJ\" Brunzie wrote:
>Like bananas - I'm sure
>bananas have come up already - which I was wondering about because I have
>this book (which isn't *that* historical) which asserts that bananas were
>introduced to Europe by Muslims.
Could be.
Taciunem Sanitatas, which is a 14th c. latin book based on an Arabic
original, has a picture of bananas by someone who has clearly never seen
one, and says they are grown in Sicily. Sicily had been Muslim, was
conquered by by Normans in, I think, the 12th c., but may still have been
to some degree culturally Muslim later.
Also, there was a recent story about a 16th c. banana peel someone found in
England.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:34:24 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Unhistoric things we serve WAS:Shepherds Pie
> Warning! Warning Will Robinson! Andrea..... Bananas are
> period dating back to pre-Roman times. Hannibals army
> were among the first Western Europeans to taste bananas.
Pliny specifically gives credit to Alexander the Great's army which invaded
India and provides a description of the banana. The fruit was apparently
unknown in the Mediterrenean Basin in 1st Century CE, so I doubt Hannibal
found any on his alpine elephantine excursion.
The best evidence is that bananas were brought to the Middle East and North
Africa around 700 CE as part of the Islamic expansion and were brought to
Central Africa as part of the Arab slave trade. They are believed to have
arrived in Madagascar about 300 CE during a migration from Indonesia and
were traded into South Africa from there.
> They were grown
> in the Canary Islands by the Portugese before the discovery of the
> New World. A number of items now grown so extensively in the
> New World are actually Old World!
The Portuguese found bananas in West Africa and imported them to the
Canaries where they began cultivating them. The Spanish took the Canaries
in the late 15th Century and in 1516, bananas were transported to the New
World.
> True, period bananas are not
> similar to modern breeds you get at the Safeway, but they are
> absolutely period! To find recipes, you will need to look at early
> Islamic and Judaic cookery (they will be hard to find I
> think). Period
> bananas look more like those stubby reddish ones you see on
> ocassion in some larger stores.
>
> Akim Yaroslavich
While there has been selective breeding to improve the stock, the banana
varieties available today were available in period, though they may not have
been in a commonly frequented local. IIRC, the Cavendish, which is today's
common yellow banana, is out of Asia and is the choice commercial banana
because it is hardier than the Big Mike (originally from the Canaries) that
it replaced in the trade and that small yellow and small red bananas were
also being grown in the Canaries.
Bear
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:58:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: SC - Bananas
Here is what the Oxford Companion to Food says about
bananas:
It seems likely that edible bananas date back several
thousand years in India. There were certainly known
by repute to the Greeks in the 4th Century BC, when
the army of Alexander the Great encountered them on
trees in India. PLiny the Elder, writing several
centuries later, recorded the incident and cited the
name "pala" for the fruit. This name passed into
classical Greek and is reflected in some modern Indian
names. The classical writer Theofrastus repeated a
legend that wise men sat in the shade of the banana
tree and ate its fruit, whence the pleasing but now
obsolete botanical name M. sapientium, meaning 'banana
of the sages.'
The banana reached China about AD 200, when it is
mentioned in the works of Yang Fu. However, it was
grown only in the south, and was considered a rare,
exotic fruit in the north, an attitude that lasted
well into the 20th Century.
During the 1st Millenium AD, the banana also arrived
in Africa, probably taken directly from the Malay
region to Madagascar. By the end of the 14th century,
the fruit was being cultivated right across the
continent to the west coast.
During the same period, it was take eastward through
the Pacific Islands. The Arabs had spread cultivation
through their lands south of the Mediterranean before
AD 650, but no farther north than Egypt, the climate
of South Europe being too cool for the plant.
Consequently, the banana remained unknown to most
Europeans until much later.
THe first serious European contact with the fruit came
not long after 1402, when Portuguese sailors found it
in West Africa and took it to the Canary Islands.
That is why the European name 'banana' comes from a
West African word, the Guinean banema or banana. The
Canaries have remained an important banana-growing
area ever since, and it was from there that a Spanish
missionary, later Bishop of Panama, took banana roots
to American in 1516, after which the new plant spread
quickly through Central America and the northern parts
of South America. For some reason, the Spaniards saw
a likeness between the banana tree and the totally
different plane tree (plateno), which is how the
plantain got its confusing name.
Huette
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:18:50 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Bananas?
>What references, if any, do we have for bananas used as foodstuffs during
>our period?
>
>Malachias
Pliny describes bananas and their consumption in India based on Nearchus'
invasion of Northern India around 325 BCE. Apparently the fruit was not
brought back to Greece at that time.
The fruit was brought to Africa from Southeast Asia about 325 CE by a
migration to Mozambique. A second importation to North Africa occurred
after the Arab conquest of Nothern India at the beginning of the 8th
Century. Between the two importations and the Arab slave trade into Central
Africa, bananas spread to the West Coast of Africa by the 15th Century.
There are supposedly references to bananas in some of the Arab texts, but I
have not found the texts or translations.
The Portuguese found bananas in West Africa and brought them to the Canary
Islands after the islands were taken from Castile in 1425. The bananas were
under cultivation when Spain retook the islands in 1496.
Oviedo records the importation of bananas from the Canary Islands to the
Caribbean in his "Historia general y natural de las Indias, Islas y
Tierra-Firme del Mar Oceano" in 1517. While there are a few quibbles, the
evidence suggests that this is the initial introduction of bananas into the
New World.
The banana which turned up in a Tudor trash heap represents, in my opinion,
an anomalous import from the Canaries. Two professionals commenting on the
origin of this particular banana suggested the New World and Southeast Asia.
Both are doubtful, since bananas last only about 10 to 14 days after cutting
without carefully controlled refrigeration.
While the banana was eaten in Africa, Asia, and probably Arabia and the
Levant during the SCA period, it is a tropical fruit, and its perishable
nature severely limited its use in Europe. The banana was not a
commercially viable crop outside of the tropics until the advent of steam
powered transportation.
Bear
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:54:26 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: RE: SC - Bananas?
At 12:18 PM -0600 12/18/00, Decker, Terry D. wrote:
>There are supposedly references to bananas in some of the Arab texts, but I
>have not found the texts or translations.
_The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti_ is based on an Arab text,
of which I think the Latin version is Taciunum Sanitatas. It mentions
bananas as being grown in Sicily, I believe, but the picture was
pretty clearly drawn by someone who had never seen one.
- --
David Friedman
ddfr at best.com
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:59:12 -0800 (PST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Tina=20Nevin?= <thorngrove at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: SC - Bannana
If you would like to see a photo of the Tudor trash heap bannana skin,
take a peek at my webpage here:
http://www.geocities.com/thorngrove/banana.jpg
Ciao
Lucrezia
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:00:08 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Bannana
> Thanks Lucrezia.
> Which museum is that from?
> I am curious as to what they say about it's presence.
>
> Beatrice
The Museum of London. Here's a further URL for your perusal:
http://www.museum-london.org.uk/MOLsite/forum/lbc4.html
I would point out that we really can not say the banana was eaten in England
within the SCA period. A single banana peel represents an archeological
anomaly. It may be of Tudor origin or it may be an intrusive artifact.
If you want a banana recipe presumably medieval and Arabic, but of no
provable provenance, try slicing a banana into a dish, add blanched almonds
and honey, stir to mix, pour sesame oil upon it and serve it forth.
For the experimental and not overly historically accurate, prepare them like
wardens in syrup or bake them into a tart.
Or, based upon Pliny's commentary, you might serve it in that most unusual
of ways--raw.
Bear
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 02:22:19 +0100
From: TG <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - Bananas
I.
The 11th century Taqwim al-Sihha of Ibn Butlan (Tacuin sanitatis) has an
entry on bananas with one sentence on how to eat them. Here is a rough
English paraphrase based on the Editor's French translation of his arab
edition:
- -- 'To eat it with sugar and honey helps to make good use of it (?).
Make sure that the banana is ripe and thoroughly peeled and drink some
perfumed wine afterwards'
- -- "La manger avec du sucre et du miel aide la faire bien apprcier,
surtout quand elle est mre, bien pele et suivie d'un vin parfum".
(Elkhadem 155)
The strange pictures in the _Four seasons of the house of Cerruti_,
David mentioned, might be explained by the fact that this passage was
later understood to refer to a different kind of plant (Latin printed
ed. 1531: musae, poma paradisi, German ed. 1533: Paradiespffel).
II.
According to Maxime Rodinson's 'Recherches sur les documents arabes
relatifs la cuisine' [1950; Inquiries into the arab texts pertinent to
cookery], there are two recipes with bananas in the 'Kitab al-Wusla ila
l-Habib' (Book of the connection to the friend; 12th century; later
manuscripts). As far as I know, there is no edition of this text yet,
but at least Rodinson's summary [On donne ci-dessous un sommaire du
contenu de l'ouvrage; 130] indicates, that there _are_ two banana
recipes:
- -- 'Two dishes of meat with bananas'
- -- "2 plats de viande aux bananes" (p. 138).
Th.
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:51:12 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - What would you do? or 2 months to freak out
> > Umm. I'd hate to see a possibly rare, even one-time import of some
> > bananas used to justify the use of bananas as period.
>
> Havent seen any updates yet refuting it.
AFAIK, there has been no conclusive finding with regard to the banana peel.
Bananas were in use in the Middle East and Africa at the time. In the late
15th Century, Portuguese explorers found bananas on the West Coast of Africa
and transplanted some to the Canary Islands. In 1517, banana shoots were
transplanted from the Canaries to the New World.
Because they are extremely perishable (10 to 12 days after cutting), they
are more likely to have been used where they were grown than imported into
Europe. The banana trade in the U.S. and Europe becomes a business only
after the advent of reliable steam transportation.
Bear
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:02:22 -0400
From: "Peters, Rise J." <rise.peters at spiegelmcd.com>
Subject: RE: SC - bananas
What's even worse is that the bananas they would have been eating... those
lovely things they grow in the Canaries -- taste completely different from
what we buy at the supermarket. But they are over-ripe and brown within
hours after they are removed from the trees, and when something has to be
sacrificed for marketability/transportability, the something is always
flavor.
I ate bananas on Gomera, in the Canaries, until I just about popped.... and
it was a long time before I could stomach the ones at home again.
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:58:08 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - bananas
> I think Bear's main point was that until the creation of faster
> transportation (steamship?), bananas just didn't last long enough to
> get from their point of origin to England in an edible condition.
>
> Stefan li Rous
I am of the opinion the banana peel is a period anomaly unless it can be
reasonably demonstrated that it is an intrusive artifact. It was originally
reported that the peel was encapsulated in the midden leading the excavating
archeologists to believe it was not intrusive. The peel is anomalous
because it is the only one discovered and there are no references to bananas
being imported into England before the 19th Century.
From Oviedo, we know that the Canary Islands had bananas in 1517 and that
the priest who would later become the Bishop of Panama was the first person
known to import banana shoots into the New World. The Canaries are within
10 days sail of England for a fast ship, so bananas could be imported from
the Canaries (or Madeira, which is closer and probably also had bananas
under cultivation).
Bananas were known and eaten in the 16th Century. However, the idea that
they could be a regular import into Europe is not very likely given the
unreliablity of sea travel and the perishability of the fruit, especially
when one considers the difficulties of getting the fruit to market even
after the developement of steamships.
Bear
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:14:09 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - bananas
> I have read that bananas were eaten by Near Easterners in period,
> however. So perhaps at a Near Eastern banquet, although i haven't
> found a recipe that includes them yet.
>
> Anahita
Thomas Gloning provided the following a while back:
The 11th century Taqwim al-Sihha of Ibn Butlan (Tacuin sanitatis) has an
entry on bananas with one sentence on how to eat them. Here is a rough
English paraphrase based on the Editor's French translation of his arab
edition:
- - -- 'To eat it with sugar and honey helps to make good use of it (?). Make
sure that the banana is ripe and thoroughly peeled and drink some perfumed
wine afterwards' - -- "La manger avec du sucre et du miel aide la faire
bien apprcier, surtout quand elle est mfre, bien pele et suivie d'un vin
parfum". (Elkhadem 155)
According to Maxime Rodinson's 'Recherches sur les documents arabes relatifs
la cuisine' [1950; Inquiries into the arab texts pertinent to cookery],
there are two recipes with bananas in the 'Kitab al-Wusla ila l-Habib' (Book
of the connection to the friend; 12th century; later manuscripts). As far as
I know, there is no edition of this text yet, but at least Rodinson's
summary [On donne ci-dessous un sommaire du contenu de l'ouvrage; 130]
indicates, that there _are_ two banana recipes:
- - -- 'Two dishes of meat with bananas'
- - -- "2 plats de viande aux bananes" (p. 138).
