bananas-msg - 2/22/08
Period bananas. Evidence for when and where they were known and used. Recipes.
NOTE: See also the files: fruits-msg, apples-msg, fruit-quinces-msg, nuts-msg, sugar-msg, vegetables-msg, fruit-melons-msg, pomegranates-msg, fruit-citrus-msg.
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: ayotte at milo.NOdak.EDU (Robert Arthur Ayotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period fruits?
Date: 8 Dec 1993 08:02:24 -0500
Organization: North Dakota State University ACM, Fargo ND
: But no bananas or pineapple unless you get to Africa.
: My secondary source research (Tanahill, and the Encyclopedia Britannica)
: told me that Bananas were exported to the New World at the end of period by
: the Spanish and Portuguese, where bananas themselves are indigenous to Asia
: and not Africa. Do you have more information? I found these sources to be
: sufficient to convince me to work with banana, but I could be convinced
: either way.
According to McGee, bananas were native to india and malaya, it arrived in Africa around 500 AD. Europeans knew it as the indian fig.
Bananas originally had fairly large seeds, and in some
parts of the world they can still be found growing wild with the black
seeds taking up nearly 1/3 of their interior.
Somewhere I remember hearing that bananas were known in Rome, but
were not considered fitting food for humans. The date would have been
sometime around the time of the first Ceasers.
: It is safe to say, however, that modern bananas are not even close to period
: ones, its true. But they are closer to period bananas than, say modern pears
: would be...
: Tibor (ever-learning)
: --
: Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy at math.harvard.edu)
The seeds in bananas are rock hard and vary from 1/4 inch to
almost 1/2 inch. How the seedless varieties were found is unknown.
Horace
From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period fruits?
Date: 8 Dec 1993 16:44:52 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Robert Arthur Ayotte <ayotte at milo.NOdak.EDU> wrote:
> Bananas originally had fairly large seeds, and in some
>parts of the world they can still be found growing wild with the black
>seeds taking up nearly 1/3 of their interior.
>almost 1/2 inch. How the seedless varieties were found is unknown.
>
>Horace
The "seedless" varieties are modern polyploid hybrids. (They actually do
have seeds, but they are small and infertile.) I learned something
fascinating in this regard in my university genetics course: statistically
speaking, something like one in every thousand (exact number forgotten)
bananas ought to have large, fertile seeds due to the proper combination
of ploidy in the gametes involved. Why don't we ever see _any_ in the
markets? Because fertile bananas are easily identifiable visually and
are removed from the bunch before being shipped. To get this back
more on topic, specialty groceries around here carry about a dozen
different varieties of non-standard bananas, but I have no idea whether
any of them are ones that would have been available.
Keridwen f. Morgan Glasfryn
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 15:41:44 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Fw: [TY] Fruits From 'New World'
> My questions are:
> 1) Approximatley when did the Pineapple reach England (and
> surrounding areas)?
According to the quick ref, Columbus introduced the pineapple (Ananascomosus) to Spain in 1493. I haven't seen anything as to when the pineapple reached England, but I suspect it is in the 17th Century, after England establishes colonies in the Caribbean.
> 2) Waht other 'New World' fruits were discovered and when...
Also attached to Columbus' return in 1493 is the plantain (Musaparadisiaca), a relative of the banana. The fruit is similar to the fruit of genus Plantago which appears to have been cultivated in Europe at the time and was also known as plantain.
> -Ly. Ganna
Bear
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 16:32:22 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Bananas (was RE: SC - Hummus and Other Questionably Period Foods)
At 2:38 PM -0400 7/5/99, Michelle \"TJ\" Brunzie wrote:
>Like bananas - I'm sure
>bananas have come up already - which I was wondering about because I have
>this book (which isn't *that* historical) which asserts that bananas were
>introduced to Europe by Muslims.
Could be.
Taciunem Sanitatas, which is a 14th c. latin book based on an Arabic
original, has a picture of bananas by someone who has clearly never seen
one, and says they are grown in Sicily. Sicily had been Muslim, was
conquered by by Normans in, I think, the 12th c., but may still have been
to some degree culturally Muslim later.
Also, there was a recent story about a 16th c. banana peel someone found in
England.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:34:24 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Unhistoric things we serve WAS:Shepherds Pie
> Warning! Warning Will Robinson! Andrea..... Bananas are
> period dating back to pre-Roman times. Hannibals army
> were among the first Western Europeans to taste bananas.
Pliny specifically gives credit to Alexander the Great's army which invaded
India and provides a description of the banana. The fruit was apparently
unknown in the Mediterrenean Basin in 1st Century CE, so I doubt Hannibal
found any on his alpine elephantine excursion.
The best evidence is that bananas were brought to the Middle East and North
Africa around 700 CE as part of the Islamic expansion and were brought to
Central Africa as part of the Arab slave trade. They are believed to have
arrived in Madagascar about 300 CE during a migration from Indonesia and
were traded into South Africa from there.
> They were grown
> in the Canary Islands by the Portugese before the discovery of the
> New World. A number of items now grown so extensively in the
> New World are actually Old World!
The Portuguese found bananas in West Africa and imported them to the
Canaries where they began cultivating them. The Spanish took the Canaries
in the late 15th Century and in 1516, bananas were transported to the New
World.
> True, period bananas are not
> similar to modern breeds you get at the Safeway, but they are
> absolutely period! To find recipes, you will need to look at early
> Islamic and Judaic cookery (they will be hard to find I
> think). Period
> bananas look more like those stubby reddish ones you see on
> ocassion in some larger stores.
>
> Akim Yaroslavich
While there has been selective breeding to improve the stock, the banana
varieties available today were available in period, though they may not have
been in a commonly frequented local. IIRC, the Cavendish, which is today's
common yellow banana, is out of Asia and is the choice commercial banana
because it is hardier than the Big Mike (originally from the Canaries) that
it replaced in the trade and that small yellow and small red bananas were
also being grown in the Canaries.
Bear
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:58:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: SC - Bananas
Here is what the Oxford Companion to Food says about
bananas:
It seems likely that edible bananas date back several
thousand years in India. There were certainly known
by repute to the Greeks in the 4th Century BC, when
the army of Alexander the Great encountered them on
trees in India. PLiny the Elder, writing several
centuries later, recorded the incident and cited the
name "pala" for the fruit. This name passed into
classical Greek and is reflected in some modern Indian
names. The classical writer Theofrastus repeated a
legend that wise men sat in the shade of the banana
tree and ate its fruit, whence the pleasing but now
obsolete botanical name M. sapientium, meaning 'banana
of the sages.'
The banana reached China about AD 200, when it is
mentioned in the works of Yang Fu. However, it was
grown only in the south, and was considered a rare,
exotic fruit in the north, an attitude that lasted
well into the 20th Century.
During the 1st Millenium AD, the banana also arrived
in Africa, probably taken directly from the Malay
region to Madagascar. By the end of the 14th century,
the fruit was being cultivated right across the
continent to the west coast.
During the same period, it was take eastward through
the Pacific Islands. The Arabs had spread cultivation
through their lands south of the Mediterranean before
AD 650, but no farther north than Egypt, the climate
of South Europe being too cool for the plant.
Consequently, the banana remained unknown to most
Europeans until much later.
THe first serious European contact with the fruit came
not long after 1402, when Portuguese sailors found it
in West Africa and took it to the Canary Islands.
That is why the European name 'banana' comes from a
West African word, the Guinean banema or banana. The
Canaries have remained an important banana-growing
area ever since, and it was from there that a Spanish
missionary, later Bishop of Panama, took banana roots
to American in 1516, after which the new plant spread
quickly through Central America and the northern parts
of South America. For some reason, the Spaniards saw
a likeness between the banana tree and the totally
different plane tree (plateno), which is how the
plantain got its confusing name.
Huette
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:18:50 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Bananas?
>What references, if any, do we have for bananas used as foodstuffs during
>our period?
>
>Malachias
Pliny describes bananas and their consumption in India based on Nearchus'
invasion of Northern India around 325 BCE. Apparently the fruit was not
brought back to Greece at that time.
The fruit was brought to Africa from Southeast Asia about 325 CE by a
migration to Mozambique. A second importation to North Africa occurred
after the Arab conquest of Nothern India at the beginning of the 8th
Century. Between the two importations and the Arab slave trade into Central
Africa, bananas spread to the West Coast of Africa by the 15th Century.
There are supposedly references to bananas in some of the Arab texts, but I
have not found the texts or translations.
The Portuguese found bananas in West Africa and brought them to the Canary
Islands after the islands were taken from Castile in 1425. The bananas were
under cultivation when Spain retook the islands in 1496.
Oviedo records the importation of bananas from the Canary Islands to the
Caribbean in his "Historia general y natural de las Indias, Islas y
Tierra-Firme del Mar Oceano" in 1517. While there are a few quibbles, the
evidence suggests that this is the initial introduction of bananas into the
New World.
The banana which turned up in a Tudor trash heap represents, in my opinion,
an anomalous import from the Canaries. Two professionals commenting on the
origin of this particular banana suggested the New World and Southeast Asia.
Both are doubtful, since bananas last only about 10 to 14 days after cutting
without carefully controlled refrigeration.
While the banana was eaten in Africa, Asia, and probably Arabia and the
Levant during the SCA period, it is a tropical fruit, and its perishable
nature severely limited its use in Europe. The banana was not a
commercially viable crop outside of the tropics until the advent of steam
powered transportation.
Bear
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:54:26 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: RE: SC - Bananas?
At 12:18 PM -0600 12/18/00, Decker, Terry D. wrote:
>There are supposedly references to bananas in some of the Arab texts, but I
>have not found the texts or translations.
_The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti_ is based on an Arab text,
of which I think the Latin version is Taciunum Sanitatas. It mentions
bananas as being grown in Sicily, I believe, but the picture was
pretty clearly drawn by someone who had never seen one.
- --
David Friedman
ddfr at best.com
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:59:12 -0800 (PST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Tina=20Nevin?= <thorngrove at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: SC - Bannana
If you would like to see a photo of the Tudor trash heap bannana skin,
take a peek at my webpage here:
http://www.geocities.com/thorngrove/banana.jpg
Ciao
Lucrezia
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:00:08 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Bannana
> Thanks Lucrezia.
> Which museum is that from?
> I am curious as to what they say about it's presence.
>
> Beatrice
The Museum of London. Here's a further URL for your perusal:
http://www.museum-london.org.uk/MOLsite/forum/lbc4.html
I would point out that we really can not say the banana was eaten in England
within the SCA period. A single banana peel represents an archeological
anomaly. It may be of Tudor origin or it may be an intrusive artifact.
If you want a banana recipe presumably medieval and Arabic, but of no
provable provenance, try slicing a banana into a dish, add blanched almonds
and honey, stir to mix, pour sesame oil upon it and serve it forth.
For the experimental and not overly historically accurate, prepare them like
wardens in syrup or bake them into a tart.
Or, based upon Pliny's commentary, you might serve it in that most unusual
of ways--raw.
Bear
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 02:22:19 +0100
From: TG <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - Bananas
I.
The 11th century Taqwim al-Sihha of Ibn Butlan (Tacuin sanitatis) has an
entry on bananas with one sentence on how to eat them. Here is a rough
English paraphrase based on the Editor's French translation of his arab
edition:
- -- 'To eat it with sugar and honey helps to make good use of it (?).
Make sure that the banana is ripe and thoroughly peeled and drink some
perfumed wine afterwards'
- -- "La manger avec du sucre et du miel aide à la faire bien apprécier,
surtout quand elle est m¡re, bien pelée et suivie d'un vin parfumé".
(Elkhadem 155)
The strange pictures in the _Four seasons of the house of Cerruti_,
David mentioned, might be explained by the fact that this passage was
later understood to refer to a different kind of plant (Latin printed
ed. 1531: musae, poma paradisi, German ed. 1533: Paradiesöpffel).
II.
According to Maxime Rodinson's 'Recherches sur les documents arabes
relatifs à la cuisine' [1950; Inquiries into the arab texts pertinent to
cookery], there are two recipes with bananas in the 'Kitab al-Wusla ila
l-Habib' (Book of the connection to the friend; 12th century; later
manuscripts). As far as I know, there is no edition of this text yet,
but at least Rodinson's summary [On donne ci-dessous un sommaire du
contenu de l'ouvrage; 130] indicates, that there _are_ two banana
recipes:
- -- 'Two dishes of meat with bananas'
- -- "2 plats de viande aux bananes" (p. 138).
Th.
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:51:12 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - What would you do? or 2 months to freak out
> > Umm. I'd hate to see a possibly rare, even one-time import of some
> > bananas used to justify the use of bananas as period.
>
> Havent seen any updates yet refuting it.
AFAIK, there has been no conclusive finding with regard to the banana peel.
Bananas were in use in the Middle East and Africa at the time. In the late
15th Century, Portuguese explorers found bananas on the West Coast of Africa
and transplanted some to the Canary Islands. In 1517, banana shoots were
transplanted from the Canaries to the New World.
Because they are extremely perishable (10 to 12 days after cutting), they
are more likely to have been used where they were grown than imported into
Europe. The banana trade in the U.S. and Europe becomes a business only
after the advent of reliable steam transportation.
Bear
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:02:22 -0400
From: "Peters, Rise J." <rise.peters at spiegelmcd.com>
Subject: RE: SC - bananas
What's even worse is that the bananas they would have been eating... those
lovely things they grow in the Canaries -- taste completely different from
what we buy at the supermarket. But they are over-ripe and brown within
hours after they are removed from the trees, and when something has to be
sacrificed for marketability/transportability, the something is always
flavor.
I ate bananas on Gomera, in the Canaries, until I just about popped.... and
it was a long time before I could stomach the ones at home again.
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:58:08 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - bananas
> I think Bear's main point was that until the creation of faster
> transportation (steamship?), bananas just didn't last long enough to
> get from their point of origin to England in an edible condition.
>
> Stefan li Rous
I am of the opinion the banana peel is a period anomaly unless it can be
reasonably demonstrated that it is an intrusive artifact. It was originally
reported that the peel was encapsulated in the midden leading the excavating
archeologists to believe it was not intrusive. The peel is anomalous
because it is the only one discovered and there are no references to bananas
being imported into England before the 19th Century.
From Oviedo, we know that the Canary Islands had bananas in 1517 and that
the priest who would later become the Bishop of Panama was the first person
known to import banana shoots into the New World. The Canaries are within
10 days sail of England for a fast ship, so bananas could be imported from
the Canaries (or Madeira, which is closer and probably also had bananas
under cultivation).
Bananas were known and eaten in the 16th Century. However, the idea that
they could be a regular import into Europe is not very likely given the
unreliablity of sea travel and the perishability of the fruit, especially
when one considers the difficulties of getting the fruit to market even
after the developement of steamships.
Bear
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:14:09 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - bananas
> I have read that bananas were eaten by Near Easterners in period,
> however. So perhaps at a Near Eastern banquet, although i haven't
> found a recipe that includes them yet.
>
> Anahita
Thomas Gloning provided the following a while back:
The 11th century Taqwim al-Sihha of Ibn Butlan (Tacuin sanitatis) has an
entry on bananas with one sentence on how to eat them. Here is a rough
English paraphrase based on the Editor's French translation of his arab
edition:
- - -- 'To eat it with sugar and honey helps to make good use of it (?). Make
sure that the banana is ripe and thoroughly peeled and drink some perfumed
wine afterwards' - -- "La manger avec du sucre et du miel aide á la faire
bien appr»cier, surtout quand elle est mfre, bien pel»e et suivie d'un vin
parfum»". (Elkhadem 155)
According to Maxime Rodinson's 'Recherches sur les documents arabes relatifs
á la cuisine' [1950; Inquiries into the arab texts pertinent to cookery],
there are two recipes with bananas in the 'Kitab al-Wusla ila l-Habib' (Book
of the connection to the friend; 12th century; later manuscripts). As far as
I know, there is no edition of this text yet, but at least Rodinson's
summary [On donne ci-dessous un sommaire du contenu de l'ouvrage; 130]
indicates, that there _are_ two banana recipes:
- - -- 'Two dishes of meat with bananas'
- - -- "2 plats de viande aux bananes" (p. 138).
While I came across a recipe in a 1920's textbook on bananas which purports
to be Medieval and Arabic but has no provenance:
slice a banana into a dish, add blanched almonds and honey, stir to mix,
pour sesame oil upon it and serve it forth.
Bear
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 08:35:19 -0500
Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas and bowels
IIRC, Pliny comments that over-indulgence in bananas caused loose bowels
among Alexander's troops.
Bear
> Bananas are certainly a modern folk remedy for loose bowels.
>
> Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:15:54 -0500
Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas
<clipped>
> So, to recap, Gerard, on or slightly before 1597, received a banana fruit
> shipped from Syria. It was preserved in a pickle solution.
>
> Johnson, on April 10, 1633, received a live banana plant with fruit cluster
> shipped from the Bahamas. He picked the fruit stalk and hung it in his
> shop. The fruit ripened about 3 weeks later, and didn't rot until June.
>
> We have, therefore, two viable methods for an intentional circa-1500s
> import of a banana into England. Pickling of the ripe fruit,
> or shipment of a fruiting live plant.
>
> Comments?
>
> Cindy
Was the banana listed in the first edition of the Herball or was it added in
a later revision? IIRC, the Herball was revised for a later edition and
incorporated notes and occurrences from after the original publication.
Quite a bit of the Herball was presumably taken from Rembert Dodoens'
Cruydeboek (1554). Do you know whether or not the banana appears in the
Cruydeboek? (I suspect not, but I've never seen a copy of Dodoens' work).
Banana seeds are sterile. Banana trees reproduce by growing shoots from the
root. Individual stalks die after producing one crop of bananas.
Transplanted shoots account for bananas in the Canaries and in the New
World. This is the first account I've seen of transporting a full banana
stalk. I would think transporting a fruiting plant might be more difficult
than transporting bunches of bananas, which may be why commercial production
didn't appear in the 17th Century.
The fact that it took 3 weeks for the fruit to ripen suggests that it was
picked very early and that it may have been a cool spring. I also wonder if
what was shipped wasn't a banana shoot and what arrived was a fruiting
plant; however, since we don't know anything about the preparation or
transit time from the Bahamas, that's pure speculation.
Bear
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] bananas
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 17:09:16 -0500
Modern hybrids have been grown mainly to provide bigger fruit better able to
stand transporting. They have nothing to do with the seeds being sterile.
Ovieda reports that banana shoots were taken to the New World. Ergo, the
period domesticated banana had sterile seeds.
The botanical opinion is the banana was one of the first domesticated plants
and that the sterility of the seeds occurred sometime in the Neolithic,
improving the plant for human consumption and requiring human intervention
to reproduce. IIRC, all members of the genus Musa including the plantain
have sterile seeds and are considered domesticated. Other genera in the
family Musacae have seeds of varying sizes and viability.
Bear
> Okay, but are you referring to a modern hybrid? or to period bananas?
> Here are two messages from my fruit-bananas-msg file. Of course, it is
> also possible they are really talking about the plantain.
>
> Stefan li Rous
> stefan at texas.net
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 16:02:10 -0500
> My question, I suppose, would be are they talking about plantains or
> bananas? Perhaps they are talking of both, but they are
> different. If he hung the bunch in the window and they lasted that long I
> would think he was talking about plantains.
>
> Olwen
I hadn't considered that possibility.
Plantains and bananas are both mentioned in Pliny and their migration into
the Middle East and Africa were probably similar.
We know when bananas were brought to the Caribbean because of Oviedo, but I
don't know about plantains.
Johnson's description is not complete enough to determine the species of
Musa and he doesn't mention whether he cooked the banana or not when he
tasted it. The comparison to muskmelon suggests that he ate the fruit raw,
which in turn would suggest it was a banana as plantains are cooked. If he
kept them hanging around for a month after they ripened, I would agree "the
pulp or meat was very soft and tender..."
Bear
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:51:40 +0200
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas - long
>Was the banana listed in the first edition of the Herball or was it added in
>a later revision? IIRC, the Herball was revised for a later edition and
>incorporated notes and occurrences from after the original publication. <snip>
If Johnson has put his indicators in the correct places, bananas were
listed in the 1st edition, along with 2 illustrations, *Musa Serapionis*
and *Musa Fructus*.
Gerard says "In the middest of the top among the leaues commeth forth a
soft and fungous stumpe, whereon do grow diuers apples in forme like a
small Cucumber, and of the same bignesse, couered with a thin rinde like
that of the Fig, of a yellow colour when they be ripe: the pulpe or
substance of the meate is like that of the Pompion, without either seeds,
stones, or kernels, in tast not greatly perceiued at the first, put
presently after it pleaseth, and entiseth a man to eat liberally thereof,
by a certaine entising sweetnes it yeelds: in which fruit, if it be cut
according to the length (saith myne Author) oblique, transuerse, or any
other way whatsoeuer, may be seen the shape and forme of a crosse, with a
man fastned thereto. My selfe haue seene the fruit, and cut it in pieces,
which was brought me from Aleppo [Syria] in pickle; the crosse I might
perceiue, as the forme of a spred-egle in the root of Ferne; but the man I
leaue to be sought for by those that haue better eyes and iudgment than my
selfe."
The fact that it turns yellow when it ripens, and that it seems to be being
eaten raw, leads me to believe it is the banana and not the plantain that
Gerard is describing. Under vertues (see below) he does mention adding
ginger or other spice for those with cold constitutions.
Johnson then adds
"Aprill 10. 1633. my much honored friend ). Argent (now President of the
Colledge of Physitions of London) gaue me a plant he receiued from the
Bermuda's: the length of the stalke was some two foot; the thicknesse
thereof some seuen inches about, being crested, and full of a soft pith, so
that one might easily with a knife cut it asunder. It was crooked a
little, or indented, so that each two or three inches space it put forth a
knot of some halfe inch thicknesse, and some inch in length, which
incompassed it morre than halfe about; and vpon each of these ioints or
knots, in two rankes one aboue another, grew the fruit, some twenty,
nieteene, eithteene, &c. mor or lesse, at each knot: for the branch I had,
contained nine knots or diuisions, and vpon the lowest knot grew twenty
[fruits], and vpon the vppermost fifteene. The fruit which I receiued was
not ripe, but greene, each of them was about the bignesse of a large Beane;
the length of them some fiue inches, and the bredth some inch and halfe...
This stalke with the fruit thereon I hanged vp in my shop, were it became
ripe about the beginning of May, and lasted vntil Iune: the pulp or meat
was very soft and tender, and it did eate somewhat like a
Muske-Melon...This Plant is found in many places of Asia, Africke, and
America, especially in the hot regions: you may find frequent mention of it
amongst the sea voyages to the East and West Indies, by the name of
Plantaines, or Platanus, Bannanas, Bonnanas, Bouanas, Dauanas, Poco, &c.
Some (As our Author hath said) haue iudged it the forbidden fruit;
other-some, the Grapes brought to Moses out of the Holy-land."
Johnson has also added the figure Musae fructus exactior Icon, An exacter
figure of the Plantaine fruit.
Gerard also lists the place (Egypt, Cyprus, Syria, Tripolis, Canara, Decan
Guzarate, Bengala, East Indies), time, names ("It is called *Musa* by such
as trauell to Aleppo: by the Arabians, *Musa Maum*: In Syria, *Mose*: The
Grecians and Christians which inhabit Syria, and the Iewes also, suppose it
to be that tree of whose fruit Adam did taste; which others thinke to be a
ridiculous fable: of Pliny, *Opuntia*. It is called in the East Indies (as
as Malauar where it also groweth) *Palan*: in Malayo, *Pican*: and in that
part of Africa which we call Ginny, *Bananas*: in English, Adams Apple
tree.") and temperature. He gets some of his information from Dioscorides
and Serapio.
Of the Vertues, Gerard adds "The fruit hereof yeeldeth but little
nourishment: it is good for the heate of the breast, lungs, and bladder: it
stoppeth the liuer, and hurteth the stomacke if too much of it be eaten,
and procureth loosenesse in the belly: whereupon it is requisit for such as
are of a cold constitution, in the eating thereof to put vnto it a little
Ginger or other spice.
Cindy
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas - long
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 22:01:05 -0500
They were found in India by Alexander's troops about 325 BCE. According to
various references, they most probably originated in SE Asia and were spread
to China, India, Africa and the Pacific during various migrations.
Bear
> For what it's worth, the Larousse Gastronomique lists
> the origin of Plantain (both vegetable and fruit
> varieties) as natives of India. Of course, there are
> no references as to where the information came from.
>
> Balthazar of Blackmoor
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas - long
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 18:06:48 -0500
Thanks for all the information, Cindy. I'll be adding it to my notes.
I remembered the quote from Oviedo as mentioning shoots, but I was in error.
That comes of trying to work off the top of my head.
I'm including the quote translated from Oviedo and some information about
the commercial trade in bananas which helps provide insight into the
problems of transporting bananas.
Bear
"There is a fruit here which is called "Plantanos"...nor did they use to be
in the Indies but were brought hither....Obe hears on all sides that this
special kind was brought from the Island of Gran Canaria in the year 1516 by
the Reverend Father Friar Tomas de Berlanga of the Oreder of Predicadores,
to this city of Santo Domingo whence the spread to other settlements of this
island and to all other islands peopled by Christians. And they have even
been carried to the mainland and in every part they have flourished....The
first ones were brought, as has been said, from Gran Canaria, and I saw them
there in the very monastery of San Francisco in the year 1520. Also they
are in the other Fortunate of Canary Islands and I have heard say they are
found in the city of Almeria in the Kingdom of Granada. They say that this
plant was passed thence to the Indies and that to Almeria it came from the
Levant and from Alexandria and East India."
Oviedo, y Valdez, Gonzales Fernandes de, "Historia general y natural de las
Indies, Islas y Tierra-Firma del Mar Oceano"; Toledo, 1526.
"Bananas were first imported commercially into England in small quantities
from Madeira in 1878 and from the Canary Islands in 1882, but were regarded
as exotic rarities. In 1884 the total importations into England were about
10,000 bunches. In 1892, Arthur H. Stockley and A. Roger Ackerly for Elder,
Dempster and Company, began importations from the Canary Islands, and about
this time Fyffe, Hudson and Company also started to import bananas from
these islands. During the next decade the fruit passed from what might be
termed the 'luxury stage' to that of an everyday food.
"Minor C. Keith about 1896 or 1897, commenced trial shopments of Costa Rica
bananas from New York to Liverpool in the fastest avialable Atlantic liners
of the time. The bunches, with the ends of the stems covered in asphaltum,
were packed in dried banana leaves and placed in crates of boxes. One
thousand to two thousand bunches were shipped weekly in this manner and the
fruit sold at auction at Covent Garden, London. Some of the fruit arrived
in good shape and sold as high as the equivalent of fifteen dollars a bunch,
but too often it arrived in spoiled condition. At the end of a three-year
period, Keith found that he had lost some $15,000 in the venture and stopped
shipments.
"In 1901, the Imperial Direct Line between Bristol and Jamaica was started
by Sir Alfred Jones, Chairman of Elder, Dempster and Company, and
steamships, especially fitted with refrigerating apparatu, loaded at Jamaica
a cargo of about 25,000 bunches once a fortnight."
Reynolds, Philip Keep, "The Banana, Its History, Cultivation and Place Among
Staple Foods;" Houghton Mifflin Co., New York, 1927.
"Immediately upon the arrival at the wharf of the first trainload of
bananas, the loading of the steamship begins and continues day and night
without interruption until completed....The cutting orders and the train
schedules are arranged so that a continuous flow of fruit is assured. A
cargo of 85,000 bunches is dispatched in about fifteen hours.
"...Each class of fruit is ususally put by itself. Bunches are stowed on
end, resting on the lower end (butt) of the stalk in from one to four tiers
in the following manner; one, two or three standing (end to end); one two or
three standing and one flat; or, one, two ro three standing and two flat.
The spaces between bunches, between hands and stalks, and between the
fingers, form natural channels for the circulation of air.
"...All ironwork is properly sheather, and rough surfaces as well as sharp
edges are eliminated to prevent bruising and discoloration of the fruit.
"Each compartment is divided into bins of convenient size by verticle wooden
partitions of open construction called "shifting boards" (similar to the old
farm gate). These wooden bars, or bin boards, keep the fruit from shifting
and from becoming crushed from the roll and pitch of the ship in heavy
weather.
"Refrigeration, as applied to banana cargos, is the treatment of the fruit
with cooled and properly conditioned air, and should not be confused with
the customary cold-storage operation in which low temperatures are
essential.
"In transporting banana cargoes in good condition, there are three principal
opposing factors to be met, i.e., heat, humidity, and vitiated air. At the
beginning of a voyage when the hatched are closed, these three factors are
exerting their maximum influence against the fruit. During this time the
temperatures of the outside atmosphere and of the sea-water are at their
maximum. This is the most critical period for the banana cargo, and quick
control of temperatures, with full efficiency of refrigeration, is
imperative. As the impure atmosphere created by the respiration of the
fruit has a potent ripening influence, ir is essential that the air in the
holds be kept fresh, especially during the period of temperature reduction.
"...It is the usual practice to "pre-cool" the holds of a refrigerated
steam-ship for a period of twelve hours just prior to loading. When the
vessel is loaded, every effort is made to reduce the temperature to the
desired drgree in the briefest time possible...
"...In the early stages of cooling, the amount of heat given off by the
average cargo of bananas is about 8,000,000 British thermal units per hour.
"...According to the distance, route, and speed of the vessel, the voyage
from the various banana ports of Central America and Jamaica to New Orleans,
Mobile or Galveston consumes from there to five days; to Boston, New York,
Philadelphia, or Baltimore, about seven or eight days; and to British and
Continental ports, fifteen or sixteen days. On account of the longer ocean
voyage, the bananas shipped to the European market are of a slightly thinner
grade (less fully developed) that those sent to the United States."
Temperatures in Fahrenheit
56 Holding ripe bananas
58 Holding green bananas
60 Slow ripening
62 to 66 Normal ripening
68 Fast or forced ripening
72 or over Danger of cooking
Reynolds, Philip Keep, "The Banana, Its History, Cultivation and Place Among
Staple Foods;" Houghton Mifflin Co., New York, 1927.
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org,
"'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas
From: Kirrily Robert <skud at infotrope.net>
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 21:48:59 -0400
>however, since we don't know anything about the preparation or
>transit time from the Bahamas, that's pure speculation.
Trans-atlantic sailing time in that period was 6-12 weeks, depending on
exactly where you're going from/to and weather conditions, IIRC.
--
Kirrily 'Skud' Robert - skud at infotrope.net - http://infotrope.net/
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] more on bananas
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:42:45 -0500
> The April issue of "BBC History Magazine" has in their calender for April 10:
> "1633: The first bananas imported to England go on sale."
> --
> THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
April 10, 1633 to be precise. This is the bunch of bananas displayed in the
shop of Thomas Johnson, who edited Gerard's Herball.
Without the additional information, the implication is that this is the
start of continuous commercial banana sales in England. It isn't. The
first commercial importations were from Madeira in the 19th Century. They
were an exotic fruit, expensive and not widely consumed.
Even with steamships in the 19th Century, a lot of the bananas which reached
England from South America spoiled in transit. The English trade in bananas
became commercially viable in the late 19th Century with air conditioned,
steam powered, banana freighters.
Bear
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] more on bananas
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:45:48 -0500
It is identified as a banana peel in the popular press, who presumably got
the information from the archeologists. I believe it was examined by a
qualified archeobotanist, but would need to verify that. AFAIK, the
official report hasn't been published.
Bear
> Quick question: Are we all sure this was a banana
> peel discovered in an English midden, and not a
> plantain peel? The latter, IIRC, ripen much, much
> slower than bananas.
>
> Balthazar of Blackmoor
From: Christina Nevin <cnevin at caci.co.uk>
To: "'SCA Cookslist'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 12:10:14 +0100
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Tudor Plaintain/Banana debate
I've been talking to one of the curators at the Museum of London, and she's
told me they have just this week sent 2 samples of the skin off for DNA and
Carbon 14 testing (only just got the funding).
She also said she found a document 3 years ago about the importation of a
whole range of exotic fruits, including the plaintain, which she is hoping
to publish with the results of the analysis. She said she'd get back to me
(probably in a few months) so further details will follow.
Lucrezia
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia | mka Tina Nevin
Thamesreach Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald | London, UK
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 07:28:16 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dayboard-like Fighter Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
I don't know about banana pudding, but, for the Mediterranean region
during the Renaissance, according to Clifford Wright, in his "A
Mediterranean Feast", bananas are period, having been introduced at
least to southern Italy and Spain by the Arabs.
Kiri
Stefan li Rous wrote:
> This is not period, but would fighters go for banana pudding? Bananas
> are good because of the potassium they contain, right?
>
> Stefan
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:57:00 +0100
From: "Christina Nevin" <cnevin at caci.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana WAS Images of Dining in Ireland 1581
To: "SCA-Cooks (E-mail)" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Just a note to say the skin found in the Thames midden was actually a
plantain, not a banana. I emailed the gentleman in charge at the
museum just after the London Eats Out exhibition (which is when it
was displayed) and he said DNA tests had proven it to be such. You
can see a rather small photo of it (pre-digital camera days for me!)
on my website here:
http://www.thorngrove.net/athenaeum/eatsout4.htm <http://
www.thorngrove.net/http://www.thorngrove.net/athenaeum/eatsout4.htm>;
ciao
Lucrezia
========================================================================
Baronessa Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia | Christina Nevin
Thamesreach Shire, Drachenwald | London, UK
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:28:52 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana WAS Images of Dining in Ireland 1581
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
I would say it doesn't matter that the fruit is Musa paradisiaca rather then
M. acuminata. Both fruits are tropical, don't travel very well (although
the plantain may do better than the banana), and the closest source is the
Canary Islands. The question is how did it get into a Tudor period midden?
The chief difference is the plantain requires cooking before eating.
It does occur to me that this may be a specimen taken from a private
botanical garden rather than an exotic import.
Bear
> Just a note to say the skin found in the Thames midden was actually a
> plantain, not a banana. I emailed the gentleman in charge at the museum
> just after the London Eats Out exhibition (which is when it was displayed)
> and he said DNA tests had proven it to be such. You can see a rather small
> photo of it (pre-digital camera days for me!) on my website here:
> http://www.thorngrove.net/athenaeum/eatsout4.htm
> <http://www.thorngrove.net/http://www.thorngrove.net/athenaeum/eatsout4.htm>;
>
> ciao
> Lucrezia
<the end>
