dairy-prod-msg - 8/17/09
Dairy products. milk, curds, cream, sour cream.
NOTE: See also the files: cheese-msg, cheesemaking-msg, Cheese-Making-art, livestock-msg, butter-msg, cheese-lnks, clotted-cream-msg, fresh-cheeses-msg.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
From: NOMAD at ins.infonet.net (The McDowell Clan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Disgusting Recipes
Date: 27 Feb 1995 01:23:06 GMT
hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu says...
>Bill Tuttle (maclain at mindspring.com) wrote:
>: Can anyone tell me about period use of cow's milk? I don't remember ever
>: hearing it mentioned as a common drink. Why is that?
>
>Here are some possibilities to consider:
>
>- It needed no preparation before consumption and therefore was unlikely
>to be mentioned in cookbooks.
>
>- It was considered a non-prestige drink and therefore was not served in
>the contexts for which records were made (e.g., royal banquets).
>
>I'm not saying that either of these is "the" answer, just that they are
>some of the factors to consider. In fact, you _can_ (with a little
>effort) find references to the everyday use of milk as a beverage. Off
>the top of my head, I can pull up a literary reference in the medieval
>Welsh tale "The Dream of Rhonabwy" where a miserly meal is described as
>consisting of "barley bread, cheese, and watered milk".
>
>Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
The following is an excert from Fabulous Feasts, Medieval cookery and
Ceremony by Madeliene Pelner Cosman. ISBN: 0-8076-0898-X.
Cow's milk, but especially sheep's and goat's, was used plain or skimmed or
creamed or "crudded" or "clotted. Not only for making butters and cheeses
(the so-called "white meat" or "white food"), milk curds were added to
puddings and sauces. Milk heated, combined with wine or ale and spices, and
so curdled, was known as posset, drunk alone or, in turn, added to other
recipes. Ground nuts boiled in milk yielded both a drink and a stock for
soups and sauces; one of several forms of almond was so prepared.
Padraigh, newbie in training.
Deodar, Calontir.
From: CXYB76A at prodigy.com (Elizabeth Estep)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dinner in Poland in 1220
Date: 14 Jul 1995 01:06:37 GMT
I don't know anything about Polish food, but I do know that England, 14th
century, milk might have served as a "caudle" a sweetened or enriched
flavored milk drink.
I'm not sure if this would have been served at a feast per se, as it
seems to be a drink for invalids, but it might have been made up
especially for someone old, young, or sick who attended the feast, or
requested by someone (with the clout to the get the kitchen to bother)
who wanted it.
I've tried caudles a couple of times at home, and my husband liked them
as a sweetisht drink, the same way he likes chocolate milk.
ELIZABETH ESTEP CXYB76A at prodigy.com
ska Angharad ferch Tangwystl
From: Philip E Cutone <flip+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:27:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - An Introduction and a question.
The domestroi mentions various ways fruits are preserved/cooked.
<snip of referances to fruit>
just to throw one more point toward butter in period: it talks of
croutons fried in butter(67)
the parenthesized numbers are chapters, for the interested.
please note this was from a very quick browse through.... and typed
rather quickly as well...
Filip of the Marche
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:57:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: curds, was-A real sieg
how do you make fresh curds? are they like cottage cheese?
Milk is a complex structure, of water, proteins, fats, sugars and stuff.
It's really quite neat.
One of the principle protein combinations in milk is called casein. It can
be coagulated into a solid white mass, called curds.
There are two basic mechanisms for doing this. One is to add a small amount
of sour/acid, and heat gently. Another is to use an enzymatic method, such
as the chemical "rennet" which is found in the stomach lining of many farm
animals.
Many of the forms of cheese we consume are hardened variations on curds, and
processed curds. Cottage cheese is flavored and otherwise intact curds.
But it is hardly ever fresh, and it is often salted or otherwise spiced. The
remains of the milk, after curds are made and removed, is a clear and
protein rich liquid, called whey. You can find whey if you purchase a live
culture yogurt (such as I have in my hand...) and let it warm gently. They
whey is the thick clear liquid that separates out.
Tibor
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:54:19 -0500
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Subject: Re: SC - Re: curds, was-A real sieg
Hi, Katerine here. Brid asks how you make fresh curds, and whether they
are like cottage cheese.
On the first question: well, if you have raw (that is, unhomogenized)
milk, it's relatively easy. Curds are the lumps that form out of milk
with the addition of acid. Rennet works *very* well; but you can also
get them with a few drops of vinegar, or lemon juice, or verjuice, or
so on. Unfortunately, if the milk is homogenized, you have to add much
more, and the curds just aren't the same when they form.
As to whether they're like cottage cheese: if you look on those tubs
they sell, they're labeled "aged". So the answer is: curds are a *fresh*
form of the sort of thing they *age* to get the lumps in cottage cheese.
No, cottage cheese doesn't work great in this recipe. But it can be used.
Cheers,
- -- Katerine/Terry
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 13:58:46 -0700
From: chuck_diters at mail.fws.gov
Subject: Re[2]: SC - lombardy custard
Katerine/Terry wrote: (snip) Since cream in those days was neither
pasteurized nor combined with milk (as even modern heavy cream is,
because dairies can legally do it and save money thereby), my
suspicion is that they would have been using a much heavier cream, and
the straining may have been encouraging the fats to harden, thickening
it further, rather than introducing air. (snip)
I recall a particularly tasty dessert at a restaurant on Ile
d'Orleans called L'Atre (this was in the late 60's) that consisted
simply of fresh bread with maple sugar, run under a broiler, and
topped with the heaviest of heavy cream from the farm's own cows. As
I recall, the cream was not thickened in any mechanical way, and
already had nearly the consistency of modern "whipped" cream. (In
other words, I suspect K/T is close to the mark here.)
Chuck/Bjarni
************************************************************************
Chuck Diters/Bjarni Edwardsson West/Oertha/Eskalya
Shadowood Manor, 9541 Victor Road, Anchorage, AK 99515-1470
ph: (907)344-5753 Email: chuck_diters at mail.fws.gov
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:09:33 -0500
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #245
Hi, Katerine here. Snipping from Aiofe's response to Adamantius:
>For that matter, who says that our cream was the consistency of their cream,
I, for one, am middling certain it wasn't. Modern cream is homogenized,
which affects consistency. It is also thinnned down to legally acceptable
levels. In fact, modern cream isn't much thicker than the stuff that
rose to the top of milk bottles we got in England 35 years ago -- and
that was milk from which much of the cream had already been removed.
I suspect that raw cream carefully extracted from fresh raw milk is *much*
heavier than the heaviest you can buy at the supermarket. Modern dairies
economize by giving us much weaker stuff. I also suspect that homogenization
affects the readiness of cream to clot.
- -- Katerine/Terry
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:10:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uduido at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Re:Crustade Lombarde, An Inspiration turned Sour
In a message dated 97-08-21 08:36:55 EDT, Adamantius wrote:
<< This isn't my normal way of solving problems like this. I offer
it only as a consolation prize... . >>
Ok, folks. I went visiting a farmer friend and talked him out of a gallon of
gurnsey milk. I let it stand in the fridge for 72 hours. and then carefully
removed the layer of cream on top. This cream is a) very thick and b) will
hold a small egg on top if carefully slid unto it. I did not go any further
but I thought that it would be something to think about. That is to say the
small cattle of period probably produced milk wich was richer in cream and
their chickens definately produced smaller eggs.
I don't know if this will help but that is what I have discovered so far.
Unfortunately after 3 weeks of vacation I don't have the time needed to
further experiment with this one. :-(
Lord Ras
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:02:03 -0500
From: maddie teller-kook <meadhbh at io.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #245
Terry Nutter wrote:
> Hi, Katerine here. Snipping from Aiofe's response to Adamantius:
>
> I, for one, am middling certain it wasn't. Modern cream is homogenized,
> which affects consistency. It is also thinnned down to legally acceptable
> levels. In fact, modern cream isn't much thicker than the stuff that
> rose to the top of milk bottles we got in England 35 years ago -- and
> that was milk from which much of the cream had already been removed.
A dairy in Central Texas sells unhomogonized cream. It is very, very
thick. I wonder if this product would produce the desired results!
It may form curds with the addition of the parsley.
meadhbh
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:02:31 -0600 (MDT)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: SC - real cream
Back in the dark ages when my children were babies, I knew a woman who
owned two jersey cows. She milked daily, pasteurized, and then sold the
milk and cream. I used to get two gallons of milk (with cream rising to
the top) and a pint mayonaise jar of real cream every week.
Now this cream would not pour. It was more the consistency of soft butter
or modern sour cream. You had to scoop it out of the jar with a big
spoon. You could whip it, and it didn't take a lot of whipping to 'puff'
but would turn to butter in a trice.
If this is the kind of cream that period cooks were working with,
then, yes, it would support an egg right off with no problem and no
additives. And also, why bother to whip it when it's already the
consistency of creme anglaise or pastry filling?
elaina
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:16:47 -0500 (EST)
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Sour Cream
<< Also, is sour cream period, or is that a
different breed of cat from period stuff, too? >>
If you leave unhomogonized, raw milk on the counter over night the cream
rises. The milk and cream also sour. Thus you have sour cream.
BTW, soured milk is the "traditional way of making butter. It yields the best
buttermilk in the world and the butter itself is, IMO, 100 steps ahead of the
"sweet" butter available in most supermarkets today with regard to flavor.
Ras
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 21:19:22 -0500
From: margali <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Sour Cream
LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> << Also, is sour cream period, or is that a
> different breed of cat from period stuff, too? >>
>
> If you leave unhomogonized, raw milk on the counter over night the
> cream rises. The milk and cream also sour. Thus you have sour cream.
GIANT HORRENDOUS GAAAAKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Milk that has been pasteurized will not sour into sour cream, it gathers
airborne microbes that are NOT lactobacillus acidoph., and they taste
nasty. If you ask any cheesemaker, you inoculate with the correct
bacillus and then you let it sour. Thus is made proper sour cream, it is
essentially a variant of yoghurt.
off my soap box and nipping back under my rock, away from the nasty
rotting milk left out on the counter
margali
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 20:40:14 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Sour Cream
LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> If you leave unhomogonized, raw milk on the counter over night the
> cream rises. The milk and cream also sour. Thus you have sour cream.
Actually, Ras, you get cream, which will probably have soured without
the benefit of the microbes that give dairy sour cream (and I know I
used the term "dairy sour" cream specifically to make this distinction)
its distinctive flavor. In other words, you get cream that is sour, but
not sour cream.
Margali, whereever did you find that unhomogenized, raw, pasteurized
milk that rots on the counter ; ) ?
Seriously, though, some Middle Eastern groceries sell a Lebanese cream
yogurt called Laban or labneh. Labneh just means yogurt, pretty much, so
you will have to read the ingredients to determine whether it is milk
yogurt or cream yogurt. Cream Laban is great, but not quite the same as
smetana, the Russian (I think) stuff we've come to know as sour cream. I
believe there's a different bug involved.
Adamantius
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 21:06:44 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Sour Cream
Varju at aol.com wrote:
> << Cream Laban is great, but not quite the same as
> smetana, the Russian (I think) stuff we've come to know as sour cream. I
> believe there's a different bug involved >>
>
> Would this account for different textures and consistancies? I know that
> Hungarian tefol (sour cream) is much thinner and generally had the
> consistancy of thick yoghurt. Even at its thickest it was nothing like our
> sour cream.
>
> Noemi
A different bacterium might well account for differences in
consistency. So might differences in the cream itself, prior to souring
(i.e. butterfat content, or even a different animal source).
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 10:40:24 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: SC - Re: Sour Cream
Woeller D wrote:
> P.S. still haven't figured out, from all of the replies on the sour
> cream string, if it, or what can be gotten in stores, is anywhere near
> period.
The Official Answer is "We don't know." The apparent real answer is,
probably not, unless you are of Russian or Polish or other Eastern
European persona, and perhaps not even then. But it hasn't been ruled
out, either.
What we call sour cream is really smetana, a Russian preparation that
probably became widely known in Europe only after the Crimean War, with
an extra boost when a lot of Russian aristocrats moved to France after
the Russian Revolution. How long smetana has been eaten in Russia, I
have no idea.
Adamantius
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 17:46:13 -0800
From: "Crystal A. Isaac" <crystal at pdr-is.com>
Subject: Re: SC - redaction challenge/milk question
kat wrote:
snip
> Wow! Could "new Milke warme" actually refer to milk straight from the cow, so to speak? I mean, that's as new as it gets; and it's certainly warm at the time (don't know exact cow temperature, but assume prolly 90+ degrees)...
>
> Did they do that???
You bet they did. Pasturization is new and refrigeration is even newer.
But why assume cow milk? They drank sheep and goat milk too. I havn't
been able to document arabic peoples drinking milk, but it's easy for
europeans.
Sources for the purists:
Anthimus. _De Observatio Ciborum_. circa 526CE. Translated by Weber,
Shirley Howard. Anthimus, De Observatio Ciborum: Text, Commentary and
Glossary with a Study of the Latinity. DissertationÉ. Published by E.J.
Brill Ltd., Leiden 1924.
LXXVI The Same (Of Milk)
Of milk, -- for well people, -- if anyone wishes to drink raw milk, let
him have mixed with it wine or mead, and if there is not any of these
drinks, let a little salt be put in, and it does not then congeal
insideÉ. If, however, it is drunk as it is milked, warm, in this way it
does no harm. If a little honey or wine be mixed with it, it is better
to take. And if one wished to act more carefully, let [a cow or] a goat
or a sheep be milked in his presence;É and as the milk is drawn is
should not get cold, but be drunk warm.
Ratti, Oscar. and Westbrook, Adele. Translators and adaptors. _The
Medieval Health Handbook_. Orginal Italian edition _Tacinum Sanitatis_.
Lusia Arano, editor. Publsihed by George Braziller, Inc. New York. 1976
ISBN 0-8076-0808-4 (Text and pictures from Tacuinas of the Po valley,
circa 1390CE.)
35 Sweet Milk (Lac Dulce)
Nature: Temperate and sweet when warm. Optimum: That from young sheep.
Usefulness: For the chest and lungs. Dangers: For fevers. Neutralization
of the dangers: With seedless raisins. (f. 37v)
Crystal of the Westermark
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:22:23 -0600 (CST)
From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming)
Subject: SC - Period Dairying, Etc.
Greetings. For the person looking for information on period dairy
practices and cheesemaking try _The English Housewife_ by Gervase
Markham, 1615. There is a good edition out by Michael Best,
McGill-Queen's University Press, 1986, ISBN 0-7735-0582-2. He has a
chapter on the practices that a good housewife should follow. While I
don't believe there are "recipes" per se he does mention certain types
of cheeses and what one should do with the whey, curds, etc.
There is also another fascinating book, _The Country House Kitchen,
1650-1900_, edited by Sambrook and Brears. While the dates indicate
OOP, this book takes some of the manors belonging to England's National
Trust and details the architectural plans and layout of the kitchens
and related rooms. Tucked in with all the OOP material are references
to period practices. There are numerous references to dairies and
dairying. I don't know where one might find the book. It is esoteric
enough that most public libraries wouldn't have it and expensive enough
that most SCAers wouldn't have it. I have a copy, but then, I'm single
and a pack rat for books! If there's something specific - dairy
layout, items needed for a "perfect" dairy or dairyroom, post me and I
will send what I can find, time willing.
Alys Katharine
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:24:12 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Persian milk
Seton1355 at aol.com writes:
<< I have been reading rcipes that include "Persian milk." Does anyone know
what this is? Many thanks Phillipa Seton >>
Yogurt.
Ras
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:19:14 EDT
From: kathe1 at juno.com (Kathleen Everitt)
Subject: Re: SC - Swithin Cream?
On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:40:13 +0100 (BST) Daria Anne Rakowski
<dar3 at st-andrews.ac.uk> writes:
>I have been requested to find a recipe for 'Swithin Cream' and I have
>never heard of it and haven't been able to find it so far. It includes
>such things as Dandelion heads, cream, sugar, etc.(all of which we
>have in abundance!) Proportions? Sources? Thank-you in advance.
>
>Coll
Swithin Cream
Peels of 2 large lemons, grated
10 dandelion flowers
2 cups heavy whipping cream
1/8 tsp. salt
3/4 c sugar
Beat the cream, add salt and sugar, fold in lemon peel and flower petals.
It's from Medieval Holidays & Festivals by Madeleine Pelner Cosman. Yes,
the same Madeleine Pelner Cosman who did Fabulous Feasts. No
documentation. I've never seen anything like it in a good reference. But
it tastes very good. (Hey! I was given the book as a gift before I knew
any better and I made a lot of the recipes in it. Some of them aren't
bad. The peppermint rice is a little weird. So is the Pasta and Apricot
Butter. Need I say more?)
Julleran
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:20:51 -0500
From: "Suzanne Berry"<sberry at primavera.com>
Subject: SC - SC: Creamline milk information
Greetings, good gentles. I'm usually a lurker, and I don't know if
this will be useful to anyone, but....
A couple of months back I had posted asking if anyone knew anything
about milk being called "creamline milk" as I had found it here, from
a local dairy. I've finally had time to experiment with it, and
figured others might be able to use the info. It appears to be
pasteruized, NONhomogenized milk, completely unskimmed. A one-quart
bottle, allowed to sit in the fridge for a day or two, develops a
sufficiently thick plug of solid cream that the milk cannot be poured
until you spoon out the cream. I made clotted cream last night by
m'lady Aoife's method, and came out with about 2-3 times the cream
obtained when using "whole" milk, to my surprise and joy.
Oh, and the discussions we were having about what you did to cream to
make it support an egg? (in reference to a redaction) the "plug" of
cream I mentioned above definitely would support an egg without doing
anything to it at all. Think of the texture of whipped butter, and
that's about what it's like.
- - Aislinn
Barony of Stonemarche
East Kingdom
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 18:00:20 EDT
From: Mordonna22 at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Greetings
Marian.DeBorah.Rosenberg at washcoll.edu writes:
> There is all this talk of getting the super-pasteurized Creamline milk.
> Wouldn't powdered milk work just as well?
EWWWWWWWWWW!
NO!
Cream line milk is pastuerized, but not homogenized. That means that the
germs have been cooked, but the cream and whey are not mixed, so the cream
gradually floats to the top and forms a "plug". Most cows produce milk that
is higher in butterfat than 4%. In standard homogenized milk found in the
grocery, they remove a lot of the cream, and homogenize it so the cream does
not separate. What we are talking about here is milk that has a fairly high
butterfat content and is not homogenized, so one can skim the cream off the
top and use it for recipes calling for cream. Powdered milk is almost always
low-to-none in butterfat. and besides, it tastes nasty. This stuff tastes
wonderful.
Mordonna
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 06:12:00 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - butterkase?
> << Ok, newbie cook question time. What's "butterkase"? >>
IIRC (and I admit memory is poor on this one), butterkase is a hard rind
cheese similar in shape to provolone. There is a square of butter in the
center of the cheese. It allows one to keep butter for extended periods
without refrigeration. The technique was developed for the Hanseatic trade.
I haven't seen any for years and I may have put the wrong name to it.
Bear
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 20:39:57 -0800
From: Susan Browning <swbro at mail.telis.org>
Subject: SC - Medieval Milk
>Now, back to medieval food stuff...do you guys think that modern grocery
store milk is anything like real medieval milk? Why or why not?
Not. I grew up on raw cow's milk. We (me as little as possible) did the
milking, poured the warm milk through a large funnel like strainer with a
filter similar to a coffee filter, and poured it into jars. A totally
different flavor, smell and texture than store bought milk. For one thing,
you had to stir the bits of cream back into the milk as you drank.
Hope this helps.
Eleanor d'Aubrecicourt
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:28:46 EST
From: Mordonna22 at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC Life span of cows was...
acrouss at gte.net writes:
> Now, back to medieval food stuff...do you guys think that modern grocery
> store milk is anything like real medieval milk? Why or why not? And if not,
> how can we approximate the real deal? Or do we care?
I think we do care.
1) Milk from all the older, "unimproved" breeds is naturally much higher in
butterfat. It is true that milk sold in today's grocery stores as "whole"
milk has its butterfat content reduced to 4%. even Holstein milk is usually
higher than that.
2) Cooked (read pasteurized) milk tastes differently and cooks differently
than fresh, raw milk.
Now, I do care about the difference, but I refuse to use fresh, unpasteurized
milk to my fighters, and I am sure no one wants to take a chance on serving it
to their feasters. So, if a recipe calls for milk, I usually substitute a
portion of it with heavy whipping cream.
Mordonna DuBois
Warrior Haven
Barony of Atenveldt
Kingdom of Atenveldt
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 11:35:40 -0500
From: "Philippa Alderton" <phlip at bright.net>
Subject: SC - Modern vs. Medieval milk and cattle- Long
Anne-Marie asks:
>Now, back to medieval food stuff...do you guys think that modern grocery
store milk is anything like real medieval milk? Why or why not? And if not,
how can we approximate the real deal? Or do we care?<
First off, our modern milk is pasteurized and homogenized, which medieval
milk was not. Further, our modern milk is set to very tight standards of
butterfat, which again, medieval milk was not.
Modern milk is produced under very high sanitation standards by cows which
have been bred for high milk production. The milk is then relieved of its
butterfat, and sold as whole milk, or relieved of higher amounts of
butterfat, and sold as 1%, 2%, or skim milk. Most modern commercial dairies
remove all butterfat, and return a certain amount, as needed, to the batch
in order to make the milk adhere to US standards for whatever grade of
(drinking) milk being sold. Many of the older people I know sat that modern
"whole" milk has much less butterfat than what they had as kids, and I tend
to agree.
Different breeds of cattle also produce different amounts of butterfat as
well. I happen to be a particular fan of Jersey milk, when I can get it,
because of its particular richness. The quality of milk varies not only by
breed, but by what the cow eats- for all my love of milk, onions, and
garlic, even I won't drink the milk of a cow which has gotten into wild
onions!!!!! The Jersey, btw, is an interesting breed- it was originally
developed, as I understand it, as a breed which is both useful for milk,
and for meat.
Another breed whose milk I thoroughly enjoy is that of the Murray Grey, a
beef breed, which developed as a sport from the Black Angus- it is
reknowned for its high meat to bone ratio (meaning more meat by weight when
you butcher), its disease resistance and ability to deal with harsh
conditions, its ability to interbreed with other breeds, whether milk or
beef varieties, and improve them, and the fact that its calves are born
small (meaning easy birthings), but gain weight rapidly due to the high
quality of their milk.
Which brings me back around to the original intent of the question
Anne-Marie posed, the difference between modern and period milk. First off,
their cattle were pretty much any old cattle, bred for both meat and milk,
not to mention usage as oxen- all around beasties. In modern times, we
rarely use oxen, and if we raise cattle, we're raising them for meat, milk,
and veal, veal being an offshoot of the milk industry- male calves which
are sold since they will prevent the mothers from milking ( a Momma cow CAN
stop the milk flowing by an act of will, if she has a calf she wants to
feed).
Further, Medieval cattle were not fed as "scientifically" and consistantly
as our cattle are, so their milk would vary in quality by the season and
the forage they could get.
And now, pasteurization and homogenization. Pasteurization was developed by
Louis Pasteur as a method for helping milk keep longer- all it is, is heat
treating the milk so all the little beasties in it die, and don't cause it
to spoil as quickly. We moderns are much smarter than that- we seldom have
little beasties in the milk, we've replaced them with all sorts of hormones
and chemicals.
Homogenization is a process which agitates the milk so that the butterfat
doesn't separate out- after all, if it did that, we could make our own
butter, cream, and skim milk, thus depriving businessfolk every where of an
easy buck.
In the recipes I've been redacting for personal, and hopefully, later
feast, usage, I have been using whole milk, and keeping cream on hand, in
case I feel the recipe needs a bit more butterfat. I suspect that if I ever
do a feast, I'll get raw milk from a friend of mine who raises cows
organically locally, and pasteurize it myself, as I do my own milk, as I
have the time.
Phlip
Caer Frig
Barony of the Middle Marches
Middle Kingdom
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 18:16:48 EST
From: Jgoldsp at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC Life span of cows was...
Just some info in my area of the world we can get specific types of creams at
whole foods stores for example I buy jersey cow heavy cream which is much more
thicker and very yellow compared to the sanitized and white heavy cream found
in supermarkets. It is pasteurized but not homogenized neither is the milk in
this particular brand and it is fun and interesting to use but a tad
expensive.
Joram
Barony of the Bridge,[new England]
Kingdom of the East
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 18:03:17 -0500
From: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net>
Subject: SC - medieval milk
Anne-Marie asks:
>Now, back to medieval food stuff...do you guys think that modern grocery
store milk is anything like real medieval milk? Why or why not? And if not,
how can we approximate the real deal? Or do we care?<
In reading Waverly Root's "Food", I note he comments:
The medieval world used little milk, partly because medieval cows did
well to produce enough of it in a week to make a pound of butter. England
had more milk than most other countries, and referred to it as "white
meat".
Perhaps this would account for the scarcity of butter mentioned in some
cookbooks mentioned here earlier.
He also backs up some of what others have said here in "Alas, every
'improvement' which has been effected in the handling of milk has been
paid for by a deterioration of its taste-even in the case of
pasteurization...." "One may ask oneself wistfully whether, if the
tuberculin test had come in twenty years before pasteurization instead
of the other way around, we would not be drinking tastier milk today"
And more unusually:
"In the Middle Ages children were sometimes put to suckle a sow, and
vice versa; I have seen an old engraving showing a woman giving one
breast to her child and the other to a piglet."
Lord Stefan li Rous
Ansteorra
stefan at texas.net
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 07:01:39 EST
From: Mordonna22 at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Scottish/british food terms
Devra at aol.com writes:
> I also understand that certain breeds of cow (notably the Jersey
> actually found on the Isle of Jersey) naturally give cream much thicker
> and richer than we are accustomed to here.
Actually, the Jersey Breed (Which did originate on the Isle of Jersey) does
produce milk higher in butterfat than most other dairy breeds (Such as the
Holstein.) Doesn't mean the resulting cream is richer, simply that you can
get more cream per pint of milk.
For comparison's sake, when we were dairying, our registered Holsteins
averaged 5 to 8 gallons of 4% to 5% butterfat milk per milking. Our
registered Jerseys averaged 3 to 5 gallons of 7% to 8% butterfat milk per day.
We're talking US gallons, at about 8.6 lbs of milk per gallon, so our best
Holstein producer gave almost 3 1/2 lbs of butterfat per day. Her Jersey
counterpart (who was a ribbon winner several times in our county) gave the
same amount of butterfat in 5/8 the amount of milk.
Since, in order to make milk, you allow the butterfat to rise and settle, then
skim it off, the percent butterfat of the cream is not related to the percent
butterfat of the milk. However the total amount you can get from a given
amount does.
The richness of cream has more to do with the method of preparing it than
with the kind of milk you start with.
Milk taken directly from the cow, warm, allowed to sit overnight, then
skimmed produces a far superior product than anything I've ever found in a
grocery.
Mordonna
Warrior Haven
Atenveldt Atenveldt (Phoenix, AZ)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:50:21 -0000
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>
Subject: Re: SC - "bog butter"
><< And completely unsalted, >>
>
>On what basis do you make this statement?
In Iceland, butter was never salted until the 19th century. Neither was
fish, and meat rarely. We used other methods of preservation, as almost all
salt had to be imported and was simply too expensive for ordinary people.
Yet this butter was not only a great part of our diet (the usual allotment
for a working man was half a pound per day) but was also used for many
financial transactions. Rents were usually paid in butter, for instance.
Nanna
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 14:57:30 -0800
From: "James L. Matterer" <jlmatterer at labyrinth.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Bread and Circuses
> And, FWIW, the whole cheese/bread/butter thing at the beginning of a
> meal seems to be way off prevailing medieval European medical theory
> (dairy products, especially cheeses and cheese dishes, would normally be
> served at or near the end of the meal to close the chest and stomach up
> while digesting, and I've seen no evidence of butter being spread on
> bread in medieval Europe, and some evidence to suggest it was not).
>
> Adamantius
I'm afraid I have to disagree with this somewhat. John Russell's Boke of
Nurture clearly states that butter is eaten with bread:
"Buttir is an holsem mete, first and eke last,
for he will a stomak kepe & helpe poyson a-wey to cast,
also he norishethe a man to be laske and evy humerus to wast,
and with white bred he wille kepe thy mouthe in tast."
"Butter is a wholesome food, at the beginning and end of a meal, for it
fortifies the stomach and protects it from poisons; it also nourishes by
opening the stomach and clears away ill humours - and on white bread it
will add relish to eating."
Scully uses this quote in "The Art of Cookery in the Middle Ages" to
show that bread & butter were used as an apertif to begin the meal.
Dyetary of Helth (Andrew Boorde, 1490-1549) also recommends butter to
begin the day with: "Butter is made of crayme, and is moyste of
operacion; it is good to eate in the mornyng before other meates."
Huen
- --
A Boke of Gode Cookery
http://www.labs.net/dmccormick/huen.htm
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 13:13:56 -0800
From: "James L. Matterer" <jlmatterer at labyrinth.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Dairy Products (long)
Leafing through Food & Feast in Medieval England by P. W. Hammond, I
found several interesting comments. Hammond says that most butter was
used by cooks for cooking purposes; in great households butter was made
available to members of the family but usually not to the servants; most
peasants had access to some sort of butter; in 1289 carters on Ferring
Manor, Sussex, had a morning meal of rye bread with ale & cheese, at
noon they received bread, ale, and a dish of fish or meat, and in the
evening they were given a drink only (no butter for these poor fellows,
but cheese in the morning). This book also has an interesting 15th c.
illustration of a peasant man scooping out butter from a large pot
suspended over a fire.
The only reference to butter I've found in the writings of Chaucer is
for the butterfly! He mentions cheese quite a bit, though.
Huen
- --
A Boke of Gode Cookery
http://www.labs.net/dmccormick/huen.htm
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:59:12 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Dairy Products (long)
jlmatterer at labyrinth.net writes:
<< but cheese in the morning). >>
This makes perfect sense. If a worker were going to the fields for the day ,
the eating of cheese would be somewhat of an assurance that he wouldn't
have to use the privy too often.
<<This book also has an interesting 15th c.
illustration of a peasant man scooping out butter from a large pot
suspended over a fire. >>
Could it be possible that this person is scooping curds or freshly made cheese
from the pot over the fire since heating is a step in cheese making? Unless
there is accompanying text that specifies 'butter' I would be more inclined
to think that cheese would be the more correct interpretation.
Ras
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 18:53:15 -0800
From: "James L. Matterer" <jlmatterer at labyrinth.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Dairy Products (long)
> <<This book also has an interesting 15th c.
> illustration of a peasant man scooping out butter from a large pot
> suspended over a fire. >>
>
> Could it be possible that this person is scooping curds or freshly made cheese
> from the pot over the fire since heating is a step in cheese making? Unless
> there is accompanying text that specifies 'butter' I would be more inclined
> to think that cheese would be the more correct interpretation.
>
> Ras
The text accompanying the picture says "Man spooning out butter." It is
from the Tacuinun Santitatis. The opening word calligraphed on the
period picture is "Butium." My latin is not so good - is this butter?
Huen
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:04:48 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Dairy Products (long)
> The text accompanying the picture says "Man spooning out butter." It is
> from the Tacuinun Santitatis. The opening word calligraphed on the
> period picture is "Butium." My latin is not so good - is this butter?
>
> Huen
That would be the Liege Tacuinum, #36, which is captioned "Butirum".
Yes, that's butter. As for why it is suspended over a fire, one
possibility is that what we are seeing being vended is clarified butter.
Another possibility is that this butter is made along the lines of
clotted cream, slightly soured and heated to break the emulsion, and
then lifted off the surface.
Adamantius
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 20:09:47 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - Whipped Cream
>I've just recieved my copy of Pleyn Delit, and I love it : )
>There are a couple of question marks though - the authors repeatedly state
>that medieval cooks did not whip either cream or eggwhite. Does anyone
>know if this is really true?
>I find it hard to believe
>
>Lady Uta
Hello! I've got a recipe for Crustade Lumbard (Harl. 279, Dyuerse Bake
metis, #17) that says "Take gode Creme, & leuys of Percely, & Eyroun, [th]e
[3]olkys & [th]e whyte, & breke hem [th]er-to, & strayne [th]orwe a
straynoure, tyl it be so styf [th]at it wol bere hym-self..."
If the phrase "tyl it be so styf [th]at it wol bere hym-self..." is
referring to the cream, then this is the earliest mention of whipped cream
that I've found yet. (c. 1430)
There's an illustration from Il Cuoco Segreto..., 1570, showing a cook
whipping cream with a whisk. I posted that illustration here:
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/food-art/cheese_and_butter.gif
Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu
renfrow at skylands.net
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 16:58:07 EST
From: ChannonM at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: drinks
I am serving a 12th C Irish feast Mar 25 and am considering serving a few
different things. I'd like the lists opinion.
Soft Cider, slightly warmed (maybe with some lemon slices, but I'm trying not
to have spices in it in order to have the drinks refreshing)
Milk - my references abound with the use of milk, cows were VERY popular,and
unless you are slaughtering them all, you're going to have ALOT of milk- But
would adults drink it? There are mentions of milk being drank by monks in the
monasteries of St. Colmcille (St.Columba) which is 6th C and of St. Adamnan
(11 C IIRC) Is it reasonable to conclude that outside of monastaries, milk
would have been served as a drink during a feast?
Chilled water- I wanted something fresh and light, seems to fit the bill
Any thoughts on this, or suggestions?
Hauviette
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 07:33:04 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Subject: Re: SC - Persian milk?
From: Kerri Canepa <kerric at pobox.alaska.net>
> I have been watching with some interest for any response to the question Henry
> posted concerning Persian milk. Did anyone answer and I missed it? Does anyone
> have an answer? Ras? Cariadoc?
>
> Enquiring cooks want to know...
>
> Cedrin
> Princess Oertha
Lord Henry and Assorted Worthies ask about Persian milk... sorry, I
kinda figured that by the time I got to this one someone else would.
Here are what pass for my thoughts, such as they are:
I understand Persian milk to be similar to yogurt. However, as Lord
Henry mentions, the context of the recipe he's working with suggests to
him that ordinary yogurt would curdle if used as described. So either
Persian milk is not just plain yogurt as we know it around here, or
perhaps the recipe intends for it to curdle, or there may be some
mistranslation somewhere along the line. I can't really help with these
questions, but perhaps approach the problem from the opposite direction?
Ways for milk to not curdle, assuming that it's not supposed to. As
Henry mentions, stabilizing it with some kind of gelatinized/cooked
starch would be one way. This method is used today in the various
yogurt/garlic/mint sauces for dishes such as shushbarrak (a sort of
ravioli-thingy found also in Al-Baghdadi, IIRC), and the method of
stabilizing with starch could conceivably have been done in period,
although I don't recall seeing a recipe that includes it. Another modern
example would be the various uses of kishik, a convenience-food
preparation of yogurt dried with ultra-fine bulgur, traditonally on a
sunny rooftop, and available commercially in better Middle Eastern
markets in funky Romano-cheese-smelling ingots, or as a powder. It's
used to thicken and flavor soups and sauces.
Another possibility might be that Persian milk is cultured from milk
that's been cooked a long time. Proteins will curdle when boiled, but
some of them will reverse this process after hours of boiling, rather
like some old beer recipes that call for long boiling to first separate
out heavier (and cloud-inducing) proteins, and redissolving them by
boiling to make a higher-gravity beer. This might be possible with
casein and such, and I can think of an example or three of milk cooked
to a thick goop without curdling. Dulce de leche would be one example,
although this may be stabilized by sugar syrup. Various Italian and
Scandinavian dishes of meat cooked in milk, very slowly, might be other
examples of this.
Another consideration is that the yogurt, assuming that's what Persian
milk is, is probably not cow's milk yogurt, and yogurt made from goat's
or sheep's milk behaves differently. You might have different results
using goat's milk yogurt, since goat's milk has its fat emulsified more
severely into it -- it is effectively "shortened" -- which means it
tends to thicken or gel more than curdle, in a cheesemaking process. You
may find that the same is true in cookery applications for goat's milk
yogurt as Persian milk. Again, assuming that Persian milk _is_ yogurt.
The only documentation I've seen for that assumption has been on this
list, so it's pretty much a matter of faith.
> >Does anyone have any useful information on Persian milk? Other period
> >cookbooks that use the term, other information about the words, evidence of
> >its use in modern times, boiling experiments, information about Arabic words
> >for "boil" and "simmer," etc.?
> >
> >Henry of Maldon/Alex Clark
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:20:39 EDT
From: CBlackwill at aol.com
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: SC - Persian milk?
troy at asan.com writes:
> Another consideration is that the yogurt, assuming that's what Persian
> milk is, is probably not cow's milk yogurt, and yogurt made from goat's
> or sheep's milk behaves differently. You might have different results
> using goat's milk yogurt, since goat's milk has its fat emulsified more
> severely into it -- it is effectively "shortened" -- which means it
> tends to thicken or gel more than curdle, in a cheesemaking process.
This is true. Goats milk will still curdle, but at a higher temperature than
cows milk, and it does not curdle in the same fashion. Also, Goats milk can
withstand a more highly acidic environment than cows milk. When introducing
cows milk into an acidic liquid, it is best to do so only after roux (or
another starchy substance) has been used to thicken it (either the milk, or
the liquid). This helps to inhibit the curdling (or "breaking). With goats
milk, it is often not necessary to thicken it prior to the introduction.
Balthazar of Blackmoor
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:07:48 CEST
From: "Christina van Tets" <cjvt at hotmail.com>
Subject: SC - yoghurt
Allison wrote:
>Thanks for your thoughts, M. Adamantius. Do you suppose that, following
>the evening milking--of whatever animal--if the milk were set in an
>earthenware pot at the back of the cooking fire area, that by morning it
>might have had the necessary cooking to make the yoghurt type, or
>thickened type?
That was roughly the speculation on the card in a museum I saw some years
ago in England (Southampton, I think). It went with a nifty little device
(in the Roman section) which was a bowl with small rough pebbles set into it
during the making; the whole inside was unglazed. From memory, the
archaeologists had done tests and said that there cheese bacteria were
lodged in all the 'pores', and that all a cook needed to do was pour milk in
and it automatically got its rennet like that.
Cairistiona
P.S. It was the same shape as an ordinary milk pan, FWIW
>Certainly, making yoghurt at home, we heat it to the right temperature
>and then hold it there for hours. I try to think of the simple way that
>would be natural to do a thing, as very often that is what got done.
>Perhaps commercial production in a city might have used a different
>method, but if this is not solely a noble dish, then something not too
>elaborate in method or utensils is likely. I'm thinking of the kitchens
>dug up by archeologists--generally minus their furnishings, of course.
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 16:10:59 -0600
From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat at in-tch.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Creme Bastarde
Here you go, thanks to M'lady Contance's documentation for last week's
A&S:
>From _Two 15th Century Cookbooks_, p. 139:
"Take te whyte of eyroun a grete hepe, & putte it on a panne ful of
mylke, & let yt boyle; ten sesyn it so with salt and honey a lytel; ten
lat hir kele, & draw it torw a straynoure, an take fayre cowe mylke an
draw yt withallm & seson it with sugre; & loke tat it be poynant &
doucet: serve it forth for a potage, or for a god bakyn mete, wheder tat
tou wolt."
The way Constance redacted it, it came out much like a slightly sweet
custard sauce. Absolutely divine as a dip for fresh strawberries.
- --Maire
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:13:29 +0200
From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Creme Bastarde
>>I'm sure it was good with strawberries, but has anybody tried this as
>>the recipe suggests, as a pottage, or, I assume, a filling for tarts?
>>I've never made this myself; don't the egg whites curdle?
>>Adamantius
Hello! Yes, IMO the egg whites should curdle, since we're instructed to
boil the whites with milk. The whites clot, and then you strain it through
a strainer to make it smoother. My adaptation came out somewhat like
tapioca pudding in consistency. It's a good pottage, but I haven't tried
it as tart filling. I added currants (as an option) to make it 'poignant',
since the recipe does not specify how we're to make this sweet dish
'poignant'. Harl. MS. 4016, Fried creme de almondes, hides currants in
almond cream.
"Harleian MS. 279 - Potage Dyvers
Clj. Creme Bastarde. Take [th]e whyte of Eyroun a grete hepe, & putte it
on a panne ful of Mylke, & let yt boyle; [th]en sesyn it so with Salt an
hony a lytel, [th]en lat hit kele, & draw it [th]orw a straynoure, an take
fayre Cowe mylke an draw yt with-all, & seson it with Sugre, & loke [th]at
it be poynant & doucet: & serue it forth for a potage, or for a gode Bakyn
mete, wheder [th]at [th]ou wolt.
151. Creme Bastarde. Take the white of Eggs a great heap, & put it in a
pan full of Milk, & let it boil; then season it so with Salt and honey a
little, then let it cool, & draw it through a strainer, and take fair Cow's
milk and draw it withal, & season it with Sugar, & look that it be poignant
& sweet: & serve it forth for a pottage, or for a good Baked meat,
whichever that thou will.
4 egg whites
1/4 cup + 2 Tablespoons milk
dash salt
1 teaspoon honey
1 Tablespoon sugar
Optional: garnish with currants
Put egg whites and 1/4 cup milk in a saucepan and bring to a boil while
stirring. Add a dash of salt and a teaspoon of honey. Stir. Remove pan
from heat as soon as the mixture solidifies; it should resemble tapioca
pudding. Allow the mixture to cool. Add 2 tablespoons milk to the egg
mixture and press it all through a strainer into a bowl. Add 1 tablespoon
sugar and stir. Pour into a serving dish and serve warm or cold.
Makes 3/4 cup. Serves 2."
(From "Take a Thousand Eggs or More", 2nd Ed., Vol. 1 pp. 228-9. Copyright
1990. 1997, by Cindy Renfrow.)
Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu
Author and Publisher of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More" and "A Sip Through Time"
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:19:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jeff Heilveil <heilveil at uiuc.edu>
Subject: SC - Creme Bastarde
It was asked whether anyone had made Creme Bastarde as a filling for
tarts. I have. IT was wonderful. It worked out wonderfully.
Admittedly, I didn't redact it myself, but rather used the redaction in
Take a Thousand Eggs or More (I don't recall which volume, though Cindy
might help out with that). As with all of the redactions I have used from
there, it worked beautifully, and tasted wonderful.
Bogdan
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:45:51 EDT
From: LadyPDC at aol.com
Subject: SC - Creme' Bastarde
Greeting to the list from Constance de LaRose,
Now that the A&S competition is over and I have the time to read all the
postings from the SCA-Cooks, I am back. <g>
I have noticed several posts regarding the various Creme' Bastarde recipes
from period sources and various problems getting it to come out correctly.
So I thought I would pass on the secrets I have discovered.
All of the period recipes call for milk, however, one was specific in stating
"fayre milk straight from the cow" (sorry, things are still a mess here so
will have to get you the reference on it later).
As anyone who has ever milked a cow can tell you, if you let milk straight
from the cow set for any length of time, the cream (and many of the sweet
fats from the milk) will rise to the top. Even modern whole milk which you
buy in the store has usually lost these parts. Since I didn't have access to
a ready, milk providing, cow, I put these parts back in when I made the
"Creme' Bastarde" which was in the competition. For each cup of milk which
the redation I worked out called for, I used 3/4 cup whole milk and 1/4 cup
cream. Also, after straining the final cooked mixture, I beat the whole
mixture 200 strokes before refrigerating and 100 strokes after an hour of
refrigeration.
This is what gave the cream it's fuller, creamier, taste and texture.
As for the other question, I did try the baking offered as an alternative in
the original recipes. The cream addition makes for a lovely fluffy baked
custard which is delicious with a sauce of any fruit liqueur and a bit of
honey heated and poured over it.
Hope this helps.
Constance de LaRose
"Crème Bastarde. Take te whyte of eyroun a grete hepe, & putte it on a panne
ful of mylke, & let yt boyle; ten sesyn it so with salt and honey a lytel;
ten lat hit kele, & draw it torw a straynoure, an take fayre cowe mylke an
draw yt withallm & seson it with sugre; & loke tat it be poynant & doucet:
serve it forth for a potage, or for a gode bakyn mete, wheder tat tou wolt"
Custard Sauce
2 egg whites, well beaten
3/4 cup whole milk
1/2 cup cream
2 tsp. cream
2 T honey
pinch salt
2 tbsp sugar
Put egg whites in a sauce pan with the milk and ¼ cup of the cream and stir
over medium heat as it comes to a boil. Let it simmer for about 5 minutes,
stirring: then add the honey and salt. After simmering for another minute or
two, remove from heat and strain or blend in a blender, adding remaining
cream and sugar and beat for 200 strokes. Pour into a serving dish and chill
for one hour (it will thicken as it chills). At the end of one hour, remove
and beat again for 100 strokes then chill until ready to serve.
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:12:09 EDT
From: ChannonM at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: Started as viking barley bread- now did Vikings drink milk
> An interesting point. Was milk drunk as a common beverage? I'm sure it
> was consumed quite a bit in Scandinavian areas (that's one reason why
> the Innuits wiped out a Viking trading village in Greenland. They had
> been given milk as a drink and the lactose intolerant natives thought they
> had been poisoned.) but what about the Continent or England?
When researching a 12th C Irish feast I included the Viking influence and
read Egil's Saga. There are several food references in it and one that
touches on milk in particular
Finally, after the death of his sons, Egil discusses with his daughter and he
says;
<<“So worketh it with one that eateth dulse, thirsteth he aye the more for
that (water)”
“Wilt thou drink, father?” saith she.
He took it, and swallowed a big draught, and that was in a beast’s horn.
Then spake Thorgerd: “ Now are we cheated! This is milk”.
Then bit Egil a shard out of the horn, all that his teeth took hold on, and
there with cast down the horn.>>
So, milk anyone?
I guess it wouldnÕt be be wise to serve it to this Viking.
Hauviette
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:55:12 -0500
From: "Michael F. Gunter" <michael.gunter at fnc.fujitsu.com>
Subject: SC - Re: now did Vikings drink milk
> <<?So worketh it with one that eateth dulse, thirsteth he aye the more for
> that (water)?
> ?Wilt thou drink, father?? saith she.
> He took it, and swallowed a big draught, and that was in a beast?s horn.
> Then spake Thorgerd: ? Now are we cheated! This is milk?.
> Then bit Egil a shard out of the horn, all that his teeth took hold on, and
> there with cast down the horn.>>
>
> So, milk anyone?
>
> I guess it wouldn?t be be wise to serve it to this Viking.
>
> Hauviette
Well upon reading it a couple of times it appears to me that what upset
the heroes wasn't the fact that milk wasn't drunk but that they were
expecting something a bit stronger.
I've seen several sources that the Norse enjoyed milk, either fresh
or soured, as a beverage but I don't know if the habit extended to the
lower countries.
Maybe Nanna could give some insight.
Gunthar
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:30:47 -0700
From: "James F. Johnson" <seumas at mind.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: now did Vikings drink milk
"Michael F. Gunter" wrote:
> Well upon reading it a couple of times it appears to me that what upset
> the heroes wasn't the fact that milk wasn't drunk but that they were
> expecting something a bit stronger.
>
> I've seen several sources that the Norse enjoyed milk, either fresh
> or soured, as a beverage but I don't know if the habit extended to the
> lower countries.
I know the Icelanders diluted whey about 1 part whey to 11 or 12 parts
water and consumed as a beverage. And while it was acceptable to offer
it in hospitality, if you were discovered to have held back the good
stuff (mead, beer, etc) and only offered the whey, the fur would start
to fly. If the whey was all you had, then that was acceptable if
offered. The former happens in Egil's Saga when he finds the innkeeper
has held back the good food and drink, expecting the king, and given
Egil skyr curds and diluted whey. Egil makes known his heartfelt
disappointment at his treatment by the innkeeper, and, er,....'returns'
the curds and whey to his host.
Seumas
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 01:04:21 -0000
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: now did Vikings drink milk
>Well upon reading it a couple of times it appears to me that what upset
>the heroes wasn't the fact that milk wasn't drunk but that they were
>expecting something a bit stronger.
>
>I've seen several sources that the Norse enjoyed milk, either fresh
>or soured, as a beverage but I don't know if the habit extended to the
>lower countries.
>
>Maybe Nanna could give some insight.
Sure. The point here is that Egill was so full of grief after his son
drowned that he decided to starve himself to death, but his daughter
?orgerur (Thorgerd) tricked him by first convincing him that she wanted to
join him in his plan, then by chewing some dulse (which seems not to have
been eaten in Norway, the Icelandic settlers probably learned that from the
Irish). Egill didn´t consider the dulse to be food (chewing gum, maybe?) so
he also got some dulse, not realising how salty it was. They became very
thirsty and called for some water but were given milk instead (arranged by
?orgerur before she joined her father, of course). The reason for Egils
anger is that he realises he has been tricked. So he abandoned his plan of
starving himself to death and instead (at ?orgerurÕs suggestion) composed
Sonatorrek, one of his mighty poems, in memory of his sons (another one had
died a short time earlier).
The Icelanders did drink milk, and diluted fermented whey (s?ra), and thin
skyr (either undrained or thinned with water).
Nanna
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:07:49 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Double cream
And it came to pass on 24 Aug 00,, that Philip & Susan Troy wrote:
> It's too early in the morning, and I haven't finished my tea, or I'd
> find the specific butterfat percentage ranges for the various kinds of
> cream in the USA and the UK. Maybe someone else has this information
> handy?
>
> Adamantius
The rec.food.cooking FAQ has this, and other neat bits of information.
It is well worth bookmarking, and is webbed (among other places) at:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/cooking/faq/
This is what it has to say about cream:
The minimum milk fat content by weight for various types of cream:
(UK) (US)
Clotted Cream 55%
Double Cream 48%
Heavy Cream 36%
Whipping Cream 35% 30%
Whipped Cream 35%
Single Cream 18% (=Light Cream)
Half Cream 12% (=Half and Half*)
* Half and Half has only 10% butterfat in British Columbia.
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
mka Robin Carroll-Mann
harper at idt.net
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:50:38 -0400
From: "Siegfried Heydrich" <baronsig at peganet.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Double cream
Really? Usually when I made it, I just poured heavy whipping cream into
shallow hotel pans, covered them, and sat them on top of the coolers, where
the warm air from the condenser could blow on them. (had good luck with
warming pads, too) Just left them for 24+ hours, and it clotted quite
nicely. Poured off the semi-clear liquid on top, scored it with a knife
after drizzling it with a bit o' honey, and it was wonderful!
I'm serving this for CoroCrown next weekend, doing Tantallon Triskele
cakes with Peaches & Cream for dessert. (to head off the queries about what
the hell is CoroCrown, we're having Coronation on Saturday, and Crown Lyste
the following day. We're switching the dates for coronations and crown
lists, so it's going to be a weird event. And you don't EVEN want to know
why we're doing it, either.)
Sieggy
> Maddalena asked:
> > Anybody know what "double cream" is?
>
> Double Cream is cream which contains no less than 48%
> butterfat content, and is usually commercially
> produced by centrifugal seperation. It is right
> between "Heavy whipping Cream" (%35-45) and "clotted
> cream" (%55). I have not had much success finding it
> in the States. I would substitute by reducing heavy
> whipping cream by 1/3 to 1/2 (and have done so on many
> occasions.) The only drawback to this is the "cooked"
> taste which results, which is fairly similar to
> Devonshire Clotted Cream. Hope this helps
>
> Balthazar of Blackmoor
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 14:16:05 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Double cream
Chris Stanifer wrote:
> You were making clotted cream, then, and not Double
> cream, right? My suggestion was for reducing heavy
> cream in order to approximate the butterfat content of
> Double cream.
Another tactic I've used, that seems to work for me, is to heat the
cream and swirl very fresh, unsalted butter into it, in various
proportions for various uses. I find that this is slightly less likely
to give the cream a cooked taste than reducing it would, and you can
reduce the cooked taste still further by using a small amount of cream,
adding a lot of butter, stirring slowly as this mixture cools, then
adding more cream that hasn't been heated.
Adamantius
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:13:48 -0700
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Double cream
> Adamantius: Another tactic I've used, that seems to work for me, is to heat
> the cream and swirl very fresh, unsalted butter into it, in various
> proportions for various uses. I find that this is slightly less likely
> to give the cream a cooked taste than reducing it would, and you can
> reduce the cooked taste still further by using a small amount of cream,
> adding a lot of butter, stirring slowly as this mixture cools, then
> adding more cream that hasn't been heated.
As a matter of fact, cleaning out my late mistress' house, I found a rare old
plastic hand-powered appliance, a 'cream maker.' You agitate the handle and the
milk + melted unsalted butter inside combine into cream. You can adjust the fat
content in the cream according to the proportions of milk to butter. I ought to
bring it to a no-electricity camping event some time and test it out [behind the
reed curtain into non-period-equipment-land of course].
Selene
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:34:59 -0000
From: "Nanna Rognvaldardottir" <nanna at idunn.is>
Subject: Re: SC - OT - freezing things
Merald wrote:
> Speaking of freezing things, can you freeze milk? I will need some mares
>milk at a time that is inconvenient to find it, and it is available now...
MareÕs milk freezes well (thatÕs how it is sold here, when available) but
may be somewhat grainier when thawed and the taste may be slightly affected.
When thawing, it is best to submerge the milk container in cold water and
defrost it slowly.
Nanna
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:01:43 EDT
From: ChannonM at aol.com
Subject: SC - non-homogenised milk
> I have an aunt that used to buy milk in bulk and freeze it until needed.
>
> The milk, when allowed to thaw completely did indeed separate, and tasted
> fine.
Actually I have been freezing milk for as long as I can remember. In Ontario,
milk comes in 1 ltre bags that are sold in three's. Works great, because you
can set the frozen bags in a sink of cool water to thaw them. I just had no
idea that this "unhomogenized" them. Cool.
Thanks for posting this info. Learn somthin new everyday!
Hauviette
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:39:45 -0400
From: "micaylah" <dy018 at freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: SC - Weird but cool kitchen gadgets
> But does the result of this end up like cream? It sounds like it
> would actually more resemble buttermilk.
Actually Buttermilk has very very little fat in it. According to
Canadian standards:
Buttermilk is milk to which bacterial cultures have been added to give
it its characteristic sour taste. Even though it has butter in its name,
it is not a higher fat choice! It is made from either 1% or 2% milk. Its
nutritional content is comparable to regular white milk except it may or
may not be fortified with vitamin D. One cup or 250 mL of buttermilk
(0.8% MF) has 105 calories and 2 grams of fat.
American mileage may vary.
Micaylah
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:04:07 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: SC - Weird but cool kitchen gadgets
Stefan li Rous wrote:
> > But does the result of this end up like cream? It sounds like it
> > would actually more resemble buttermilk.
Well, originally buttermilk was the milk leftover *after* butter was
made, so low butterfat content, the opposite of this little gadget.
Nowadays most buttermilk in America is cultured of non- or low-fat
milk. I can also find "churned" buttermilk commercially, again, low
in fat. It's sort of the opposite of its name, as it is milk "without
butter".
I've never had any right out of a churn. Anybody know? Is it really
sour like the commercial kind?
Anahita
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 19:28:40 EDT
From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Weird but cool kitchen gadgets
lilinah at earthlink.net writes:
> I've never had any right out of a churn. Anybody know? Is it really
> sour like the commercial kind?
I made my own butter at Pennsic last year. Real buttermilk is far, far
better tasting than the cultured stuff. I abhor the buttermilk the grocery
sells; it always smells and tastes like it's gone bad to me. The buttermilk
left over from my butter was so good that I drank it straight.
Brangwayna Morgan
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 09:09:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - yogurt Cheese 101?
- --- Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net> wrote:
> Anyone know if this is a period technique? And another question for us
> neophytes, what exactly is yogart? Is it just an already curdled milk
> project? If so, then how is it different from cottage cheese? It
> certainly *looks* different.
Stefan,
I'm not sure if yoghurt cheese is period, but I seem
to recall something about it, somewhere (how's that
for definitive?) One of the more learned scholars on
this list may be able to answer that for us...
However, as for the question "what exactly is yogart
(sic)"... Yoghurt is a milk product which has been
inocculated with bacteria, very similar to buttermilk,
which begin to coagulate the proteins and give it a
pleasantly tart taste. It's cultured milk. The
difference between yoghurt and cottage cheese is the
absence of rennet in yoghurt, among other factors.
Consequently, if you mix cottage cheese and yoghurt,
the combination produces a very high quality blend of
protein and carbohydrate...very effective if taken an
hour or so after a vigourous weight training workout!
Or, after a serious butt-kicking out on the dusty
battlefield....
Balthazar of Blackmoor
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:17:40 +0200
From: UlfR <parlei-sc at algonet.se>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: SC - yogurt Cheese 101?
micaylah <dy018 at freenet.carleton.ca> [2001.04.30] wrote:
> > Consequently, if you mix cottage cheese and yoghurt,
> Balthazar do you really eat this??? Ewww.
About a year ago Nanna mentioned an Icelandic speciality, which was
"hr=E6ringur - skyr mixed with cold oatmeal". I've since tried this using
a substitute skyr made from what is sold as yogurt here (3% milkfat,
consistency like a milkshake, but with the full yogurt tartness[1]).
Superb, and even went down most of the others in the camp (I'm pretty
much an omnivore, and thus can't be used to evaluate what others will
or will not eat).
Perfect summer lunch in camp. make far too much oatmeal, and mix the
cold remains up with the freshly drained "skyr". Two cloth bags for the
making of yogurt cheese/"skyr" is part of the stuff I allways bring to
SCA camps.
I found that adding a few spoons of it (the "skyr") to hot barley
porridge was pretty good as well.
/UlfR
[1] They make a "mild" version as well. Totally meaningless. I *want* the
tart flavour to go with my m=FCsli.
--
UlfR parlei-sc at algonet.se
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:59:07 +0200
From: UlfR <parlei-sc at algonet.se>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: SC - yogurt Cheese 101?
Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> [2001.05.10] wrote:
> > "hrringur - skyr mixed with cold oatmeal". I've since tried this using
> I must have missed this discussion when it came around previously on the
> git-tar. This may sound silly, but would you consider this a cheese food
> or a cereal food? Or is this one of those situations where you say in
> response, "Yes," ?
A "moistened" cereal food. Now that you mention it I have no data
(paging Nanna) as to the proportions in hr=E6ringur. I went for somewhere
between 30 and 50% cheese by volume.
> I ask because you seem to be thinking of it in terms of a porridge with
> added cheese, which is then eaten with a spoon.
It would be rather messy to eat with ones hand.
> I think I might want to
> try it as a soft cheese with an added grain element, lacking any
> identifying criteria.
Depending on the proportions used I would agree with you. Basically the
question boils down to which is the more dominant part. I could see it
served either way, but I have only tried it with the grain dominating.
> I mention this because there are Scots cheeses,
> IIRC, that perform similar arcana,
Names?
> not to mention foods like kishik in
> the MidEast. [Although kishik is used as a highly-flavored thickener,
> usually, sort of an instant roux, it's about equal parts fine powdered
> bulgur and yogurt, dried in the sun and reground to a fine meal. Perhaps
> a bit different from the other grain/cheese amalgams.]
I've seen suggestions, no doubt based on the vast corpus of early
(Scandianvian) iron age cooking manuscripts, that one could dry skyr and
use it in cooking.
/UlfR
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: SC - yogurt Cheese 101?
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 01:24:49 -0000
UlfR wrote:
>A "moistened" cereal food. Now that you mention it I have no data
>(paging Nanna) as to the proportions in hr=E6ringur. I went for somewhere
>between 30 and 50% cheese by volume.
Well, it is a leftover dish (usually) and I've never seen a recipe that had
any set proportions. I'd probably use half of each, more or less - possibly
a little more skyr than grain. Come to think of it, I can't remember ever
having seen an actual recipe - this is a dish that didn't need one - but the
only description I have in an old cookbook says you can use oatmeal
porridge, or barley, or rye, or rice (that one I've got to try, BTW) or
Iceland moss porridge. This author recommends adding chopped lettuce to the
dish, which I've never tried. I asked my mother and she said this had
occasionally been done at her childhood home, but that chopped lettuce had
usually been eaten with just milk and sugar, as a dessert. (Yes, I know ...)
Formerly, turnip and rutabaga greens were sometimes preserved (fermented) in
skyr, which was then added to porridge. A sort of hroringur with sauerkraut.
Interesting that you tried adding skyr to hot porridge also. This is (or
was) often done here, although the cold version was much more common.
I was confused for a moment when I read "30 and 50% cheese by volume". Of
course skyr is a cheese product of sorts but no Icelander would ever think
of it as a cheese. I don't know why, it just isn't cheese, period, not even
when it is used in cooking in a similar manner to cheese - which it was,
quite a lot, in former times. Not exactly dried but much drier than the skyr
we have today. The skyr of my childhood (1960s) could be crumbled - it was
cut in chunks and sold wrapped in paper. Today's skyr is soft and smooth and
is sold in plastic beakers.
(Oops - nu kommar jag ihog att jag hadde sagt att jag ville skicka nogot
torrkat fisk til deg. Det skall jag fixa redan i morgon - jag hadde komplett
glomt det. Sorry.)
Nanna
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 06:58:23 +0200
From: UlfR <parlei-sc at algonet.se>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: SC - yogurt Cheese 101?
Nanna R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir <nannar at isholf.is> [2001.05.11] wrote:
> Well, it is a leftover dish (usually) and I've never seen a recipe that had
> any set proportions. I'd probably use half of each, more or less - possibly
> a little more skyr than grain.
I can see why. With that proportion you would get the full creamy
effect, not a cold porridge with something in it.
> Come to think of it, I can't remember ever
> having seen an actual recipe - this is a dish that didn't need one - but the
> only description I have in an old cookbook says you can use oatmeal
> porridge, or barley, or rye, or rice (that one I've got to try, BTW) or
Rice... But a Swedish audience would immediately say "Ris a la Malta"
(cold boiled rice with whipped cream and sugar + vanilla sugar). All the
more reason to try it. For some reason people at work for some reason
think that it is unusual to bring mawmenny, "icelandic chicken" or cawdel
of samoun to lunch, even if someone the other day expressed surprise
that I was eating "normal" food for lunch.
> Iceland moss porridge.
Recipie? Iceland moss (Cetraria islandica) I can get hold of in
practically unlimited quantities by talking a walk in the woods. In
particular since I have been unable to get hold of the ingredients for
Blaomor, more the pity. Or would pigs blood be useable in it?
> Interesting that you tried adding skyr to hot porridge also. This is (or
> was) often done here, although the cold version was much more common.
It was sort of obvious. It was there, so I had to try.
> I was confused for a moment when I read "30 and 50% cheese by volume". Of
> course skyr is a cheese product of sorts but no Icelander would ever think
> of it as a cheese. I don't know why, it just isn't cheese, period, not even
> when it is used in cooking in a similar manner to cheese - which it was,
> quite a lot, in former times.
I agree with you. In swedish we would refer to it is "fresh cheese", but
cheese proper is something different. Now I must make a batch that is
really firm, and then try it in cooking.
> Not exactly dried but much drier than the skyr we have today. The skyr
> of my childhood (1960s) could be crumbled - it was cut in chunks and
> sold wrapped in paper. Today's skyr is soft and smooth and is sold in
> plastic beakers.
All depends on how it is used, I suppose. The references to sacks in the
sagas might indicate things about consistency, as does the draining
boards from some of the finds. Comment?
/UlfR
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:49:00 +0200
From: UlfR <parlei-sc at algonet.se>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Skyr? and intro
Skyr is a form of fresh cheese that is mentioned in the Icelandic Sagas,
and still eaten on Iceland. Nanna, being the lucky one, lives on Iceland
where she can get hold of what is the real thing, baring any
evolution/changes that hs taken place over the last 1000 years. Here in
Sweden I have to make do with a substitute, which is the yogurt cheese.
Basically take a suitably tart yogurt, and let it drain from a thin fabric
bag.
ISTR that Nanna has earlier posted direction for how to make the
real thing, but you would need access to a live culture to do
that.
/UlfR
From: "Nanna Rognvaldardottir" <nanna at idunn.is>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Skyr? and intro
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:39:32 -0000
>ISTR that Nanna has earlier posted direction for how to make the
>real thing, but you would need access to a live culture to do
>that.
Here is a recipe from the (uncorrected) manuscript of my forthcoming book:
Skyr
Makes around 5 pounds skyr and 5 quarts whey
Skyr has been made in Iceland since the Settlement, but the skyr of those
times was probably much thinner than it is today. Skyr was also made in
Scandinavia and variations of it are still known there, but in Iceland it
was extremely popular and most of the milk that was gathered from cows and
ewes during the summer was used for skyr-making.
Skyr is traditionally made with unpasteurized fresh skim milk, but
buttermilk may also be used. Ideally, you should use a little skyr as a
starter for the new batch but since anyone who tries to make skyr on his own
is probably doing so because skyr is unavailable, sour cream will usually
have to do. It wonÕt be true skyr, of course, but it should be near enough
for most uses.
10 quarts skim milk, or 8 quarts skim milk and 2 quarts buttermilk
2 heaped tablespoons skyr or sour cream
rennet (see package for instructions on how much to use)
Warm the milk up to 190=B0F and hold it at this temperature for 10 minutes,
taking care that the milk doesn=92t scorch or come to the boil. Use a candy
thermometer to be safe. Pour the milk int a large bowl or bucket and cool it
quickly down to 100=B0F. If the room where you are working is very cold, the
temperature should be a few degrees higher, but it must not be too high.
Gradually dilute the starter with warm milk, until it has become so thin
that it will mix easily with the milk in the bowl. Add the rennet
(dissolved, unless it is in liquid form) and stir well.
At this stage, the milk should cool down very slowly. Place a lid on the
container and cover it with towels to retain the warmth. After 3 hours,
check the milk. It should have coagulated by now, enough to make a cut that
doesnÕt close immediately. With a sharp knife that reaches to the bottom of
the container, cut a double cross into it, all the way through. Cover again
and let stand for 2-3 hours more. Check if the skyr and remove the lid if it
is well coagulated, else keep it covered a little longer. Refrigerate
overnight.
Spread a cheesecloth over a large colander and place it over a bowl. Pour or
spoon the skyr into the colander. Tie the corners of the cheesecloth
together, hang it over a bowl and let the skyr drain for 8-12 hours, until
fairly firm.
The final stage used to be to weigh the skyr down for a few hours to drain
it even further but that is rarely done now.
When the skyr is to be served, it is whipped until smooth and diluted with
milk if it is very thick. Some sugar is usually added and it is served with
more sugar and milk or a mixture of milk and cream. Berries or fruit are a
good accompaniment.
Most Icelanders eat skyr as a dessert or as a sweet breakfast or lunch dish
but it was formerly used in other ways too (stirred into soups, for
instance) and imaginative cooks have been finding new ways to use it in
later years. It can for instance be mixed with garlic, herbs and spices and
used as a dip (try making Greek tzatziki with skyr, for instance). It can be
used in breads and cakes and skyr-cakes, similar to cheesecakes, are
delicious.
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:52:52 -0800
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Middle Eastern Food
Jaime Declet <jjdeclet at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Question concerning yogurt in Middle Eastern period dishes. I was under the
>impression that yogurt back then was more like sour cream today? Is that
>correct? My ex-father in law is from the Middle East and he always said
>that the yogurt here was not strong or thick enough.
a) I'm guessing your ex-father-in-law was from the Levant. The
product he was talking about was probably Labna/Lebneh/Lebni (note
that the pronunciation of the Arabic words can vary a bit from
culture to culture, and romanizations can vary as well), which is
made from yogurt, but isn't yogurt. The Persian yogurt i've had has
been more like Pavel's and not at all like lebneh.
One way to make lebneh is get some cheese cloth and line in a bowl so
there are several layers. Then take that excellent quality, pure,
whole milk yogurt (see my description below) and dump it into the
center of the cheese cloth. Pull up the edges and corners of the
cheesecloth around the yogurt and tie it shut. Then hang it up (some
folks tie it to the kitchen sink spout) so that the liquid/water/whey
gradually drains out of the yogurt and into the bowl. Some folks
leave it overnight, some folks fewer hours. It should be thicker than
sour cream - all the lebneh i've had, both commercially and homemade,
has been denser than commercial sour cream.
You can drink the whey afterwards for a refreshing sort of buttermilk
drink, although it will be thinner than buttermilk - most commercial
buttermilk is made of cultured milk anyway, although sometimes you
can find real churned buttermilk.
b) we don't known exactly what "period" Near Eastern yogurt was like.
I just use regular yogurt, Pavel's Russian-Style Whole Milk Yogurt
...well, in some ways it isn't regular, since, unlike most brands, it
has no stabilizers added, being made exclusively of milk and yogurt
cultures. I consider this the very best yogurt. I suspect that for
average American taste it will be too tangy, but it is excellent for
cooking.
I would add that in my experience cooking "period" Near Eastern
dishes that contain yogurt, the flavor is, in my opinion, much better
with whole milk yogurt rather than with some reduced fat version. I
can taste/feel the difference. And i noticed a difference between the
same recipe made with Pavel's and with some other brand of yogurt.
Pavel's is a local (SF Bay Area) brand, but i imagine that other
regions have a brand of high quality yogurt made without added
stabilizers.
Of course, anyone who has had *real* cream cheese, not that nasty
gummy "Philadelphia" brand stuff, can guess at some of the
differences in texture between pure milk products and products
thickened with stabilizers, no matter how natural those thickeners
and stabilizers are.
As for tanginess that some other posters have mentioned: I am certain
that modern American yogurts (or the bacilli that produce the yogurt)
are processed in such as way as to make them less sour, since even
the unsweetened brands are very bland and lacking in the appropriate
tang that yogurt ought to have, even many unsweetened "health food"
brands (Continental? Feh!). The Bulgarian yogurt i had when i lived
in Indonesia (imported from Bulgaria in narrow glass bottles) was a
real eye-opener - and it was meant to be drunk, not eaten with a
spoon.
Anahita
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:43:53 -0800
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Skyr
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Sharon Gordon wrote:
> Does anyone ave a resource for fresh skyr or powdered skyr culture in
> the US or Canada?
>
> I've seen the recipes for substitutes if you can't the actual skyr, but
> wondered if the real thing is available?
>
> Sharon
> gordonse at one.net
Apparently, live culture sour cream or buttermilk will do, according to
this page:
http://www.isholf.is/gullis/jo/Miscellaneous.htm
Selene C.
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:15:16 -0600
From: Robert Downie <rdownie at mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Skyr
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Sharon Gordon wrote:
> Does anyone have a resource for fresh skyr or powdered skyr culture in
> the US or Canada?
>
> I've seen the recipes for substitutes if you can't the actual skyr, but
> wondered if the real thing is avalable?
>
> Sharon
> gordonse at one.net
It's available. You just need to find a town near you with a high
Scandinavian population. We get ours in Gimli, Manitoba, which is handy for
feasts, since our September long weekend Event is held just outside
Gili.
Faerisa
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:30:27 -0500
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Skyr
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Does anyone have a resource for fresh skyr or powdered skyr culture in
> the US or Canada?
>
> I've seen the recipes for substitutes if you can't the actual skyr, but
> wondered if the real thing is available?
http://www.owlsprings.com/EuropeanCuisines/iceland.html
Title: Icelandic Curds (Skyr)
Categories: Icelandic, Dairy
Yield: 8 servings
4 qt Milk
1/2 pt Sour cream
1/2 Rennet tablet
The milk is brought to a boil without burning it, and then cooled to
blood heat (98F). A cupful of the sour cream is whipped and mized
with some of the milk until thin and smooth: then it is poured into
the milk. At the same time, one-half rennet tablet is dissolved in a
little cold water (about a tablespoonful) and poured into the milk,
which is stirred to mix the ingredients. The mixture is allowed to
stand at room temperature for 24 hours.
Then the skyr is scooped from the pot and strained gradually through
a
fine linen sieve (several layers of cheesecloth may be used instead).
It is thus separated from the whey. The skyr which is left in the
sieve should be about as thick as ice cream. Four quarts of milk
should make about one and a half quarts of skyr.
When serving, whip skyr well with a spoon or whipper to a smooth
ice-cream-like consistency. The consistency should not be grainy or
like cottage cheese.
Icelanders eat skyr as a dessert with sugar or cream. (Or fruit.)
(from THE COMPLETE SCANDINAVIAN COOKBOOK, Alice B. Johnson)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:05:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Kathleen Madsen <kmadsen12000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Skyr
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
I discovered when I first started making my own cheese
that milk scorches very quickly, at a much lower
temperature than most people expect. I recommend
stirring the milk constantly once it reaches 120
degrees F. It makes for *much* easier cleanup, and
less aggravation.
Eibhlin
--- ranvaig at columbus.rr.com wrote:
>> Does anyone have a resource for fresh skyr or
> powdered skyr culture in the
>> US or Canada?
>>
>> I've seen the recipes for substitutes if you can't the actual skyr, but
>> wondered if the real thing is available?
>
http://www.owlsprings.com/EuropeanCuisines/iceland.html
>
> Title: Icelandic Curds (Skyr)
> Categories: Icelandic, Dairy
> Yield: 8 servings
>
> 4 qt Milk
> 1/2 pt Sour cream
> 1/2 Rennet tablet
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 14:40:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Darioles recipe
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Alex Clark wrote:
> At 12:35 AM 11/15/2003 -0600, Stefan wrote:
>> However, rather than almond milk I'm wondering if this relly does mean
>> almond cream as we discussed recently. . . .
>
> That's a good question. I've just now gone over a bunch of recipes and
> found each of the following types of filling:
> 1. wine, broth, cream, and egg yolks (2FCCB p. 47, p. 53, p. 5)
> 2. pike, almond milk, cheese, and eggs (or maybe thick almond milk
> etc.??) (2FCCB p. 47)
> 3. milk, fat from broth, and eggs (2FCCB pp. 55-6)
> 4. fresh curds with the whey wrung out, and egg yolks (2FCCB p. 56)
> 5. almond milk made with wne, minced fish, currants, and minced bread
> (Noble Book off Cookry p. 56)
> 6. cream of cow milk or of almonds, and eggs (Forme of Cury in
> _Curye on Inglysch_, p. 141)
> 7. cream of almonds or of cow milk, and eggs (Ancient Cookery, p. 443)
> 8. fat cheese and eggs (ibid.)
>
> 2FCCB: Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery-Books, at
> http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-
> idx?type=HTML&rgn=TEI.2&byte=3356093 .
>
> I had assumed some years ago that the Forme of Cury recipe could reasonaly
> be interpreted as meaning almond milk, the word cream having been chosen to
> refer to cow milk and used only loosely with reference to the almonds. But
> it looks a bit different when compared with the Ancient Cookery recipe,
> which is the ost similar one that I've found. The latter links the words
> cream and almonds more closely to each other and then says that fat cheese
> can also be used.
>
> All of these recipes call for one or more out of cream, milk with added
> fat, almond ilk, or cheese/curds. So both almond milk and cream of almonds
> would give results similar to at least one of the other ingredients. In the
> Forme of Cury it's not so obvious that cream of almonds is intended,
> because it is called for as an alernative to cream of cow milk, which is a
> runny liquid rather than a curd. Since the almond ingredient in Ancient
> Cookery takes the place of either cream or fat cheese, it is less
> surprising that it is called for as cream of almonds.
Have you eer dealt with milk production first-hand? By this I mean
milking the cow (who is not a modern Holstein-Frisian), letting the cream
rise, skimming off the cream, etc. Real cream, the stuff that you get when
you skim milk that's been let rest after milking (it comes out of the cow
freshly homogenized), is less a runny liquid and more of a somewhat fluid
solid. If you let it sit long enough, it's more like the consistency of
sour cream than the stuff you get in cartons at the grocery store. It's
not a curd, but it's awfully thick.
My aunt and uncle had Jerseys, which are a lot closer to what they had in
period than modern Holstein-Frisians (the black and white factory cows who
produce tens of gallons a day). A Jersey will usually produce (IIRC) 5-
gallons of milk which is a lot higher in fat content, both milk and
butter fat, than commercial milk. The cream that we skimmed off the top
was very very thick.
Period cows produced richer milk and cream than what we get in the store.
Less of it, but richer. Modern dairy herds have been "improved" to produce
higher yields of milk with a lower fat content for financial reasons.
> To get back to saffron, the recipe types listed above that call for saffron
> are 1, 3, 5 & 6 (and optionally, implid by the list of possible colors, 8
> and probably also 7).
>
> Henry of Maldon/Alex Clark
Margaret, full of random trivia about cows today
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 01:59:39 -0500
From: "Carper, Rachel" <rachel.carper at hp.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] (no subject)
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
I got these instructions for making your own clotted cream but I
have no idea where I would find
unpasteurized cream. Any ideas? And does this sound right? I've never
encountered the let sit out
instruction before.
In winter, let fresh, unpasteurized cream stand 12 hours, (in summer,
about 6 hours) in a heat-proof dish. Then put the cream on to heat -
the lower the heat the better. It must never boil, as this will
coagulate the albumen and ruin everything. When small rings or
undulations form on the surface, the cream is sufficiently scalded.
Remove at once from heat and store in a cold place at least 12 hours.
Then skim the thick, clotted cream and serve it very cold as a
garnish for berries, or spread on scones and top with jam.
Elewyiss
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:10:14 -0500
From: Tara Sersen Boroson <tara at kolaviv.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] (no subject)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> I got these instructions for making your own clotted cream but I
>have no idea where I would find
>unpasteurized cream. Any ideas? And does this sound right? I've never
>encountered the let sit out
>instruction before.
You skim it yourself :) Go here to find a local supplier of raw milk:
www.realmilk.org. They have listings by state, but you have to dig a
little (not an extremely well designed site...)
-Magdalena
--
Tara Sersen Boroson
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:03:11 -0500
From: Tara Sersen Boroson <tara at kolaviv.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] (no subject)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> In winter, let fresh, unpasteurized cream stand 12 hours, (in summer,
> about 6 hours) in a heat-proof dish. Then put the cream on to heat -
> the lower the heat the better. It must never boil, as this will
> coagulate the albumen and ruin everything.
Erm... albumen? Albumen is a protein in egg whites, not cream. It's
frequently the allergenic factor in eggs, so I'm pretty confident in
saying that there is absolutely none in milk products. Here's a
breakdown of the components of milk:
http://www.siu.edu/~tw3a/434minet.htm
The protein that most people think of relative to milk is casein - which
is the most common allergenic component of dairy. I've never heard of
casein coagulating in the same way as albumen, so it's not at all clear
to me what this recipe is talking about...
-Magdalena
--
Tara Sersen Boroson
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 14:20:08 -0600
From: Robert Downie <rdownie at mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]clotted cream (was no subject)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
"Carper, Rachel" wrote:
> And does this sound right? I've never
> encountered the let sit out
> instruction before.
>
> In winter, let fresh, unpasteurized cream stand 12 hours, (in summer,
> about 6 hours) in a heat-proof dish. Then put the cream on to heat -
> the lower the heat the better. It must never boil, as this will
> coagulate the albumen and ruin everything.
>
> Elewyiss
Yup, it looks right. Nothing new under the sun...
Hugh Plat's Delightes for Ladies 1603
c23 clouted creame
Take your milke beeing newe milked, and presently set it vpon the fire from
morning vntil the euening, but let it not seethe, and this is called my Lady
Youngs clowted creame.
The only thing not mentioned in these instructions is the setting aside to
chill, but it was probably assumed everyone knew to do that. I sometimes
wonder what the medieval mind would make of some of our modern idiot proof
cookbooks which detail _every_ single step!
Faerisa
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:16:43 -0700
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
Subjct: Re: [Sca-cooks] A question or two...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> What was sour cream called in period? Was it used much? In what ways
> principly?
>
> When did the use of cow's milk (and cream) become common in cooking?
>
> David of Caithness
Gosh, that's a good question. I should think that sour cream was not so
much of an invention but an inevitability in any tribe that used animal
milk at all. Sour cream is just a step on the way to churning butter,
n'st-ce pas? There is a discussion worth reading in the Florilegium:
<http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD/dairy-prod-msg.html>
A quick surf through Google shows that the word "smetanik" shows up in
the Domostroi in a creamy context, whereas the moden Russian word for
"sour cream" is "smetana".
<http://medievalrussia.freeservers.com/food-cabbage.html>
Yogurt, a soured milk, appears in al-Baghdadi, that's dated 1220 if
it's a solid documentation date you need. See here, some translated and
redaced recipes in Caridoc's Miscellany:
<http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/islamic_wo_veggies.html>
Other terms worth considering: Kefir, labna, tahn, etc. But I don't
think Western Europeans did much with sour cream except besides churn it
for butter More the fools they.
Selene
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:47:22 -0800 (PST)
From: R J <chaingangorg at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for "real" sour cream
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
--- James <thebard3 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Was just wondering if anyone on the list knew of a
> company in the US that makes sour cream with actual flavor?
I no longer use supermarket sour cream either.
My suggestions are:
If you live near an Amish area, get it from them.
There are a number of small communities in Texas,
though I cannot tell you precisely where.
The other choice is what I usually resort to, Meican
"Crema". Be careful opening it, as the fat separates
and clogs the top, so removal can be somewhat
explosive.
If you choose to make your own, store the container
you put it in "upside down", which seems to help. Not
only does the liquid and fat go to the top, the
package seals slightly better, keeping air out and
retaining freshness a few extra days.
AEsa
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 01:07:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for "real" sour cream
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
--- James <thebard3 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Was just wondering if anyone on the list knew of a company in the US
> that makes sour cream with actual flavor? Have a few recipes I'm going
> to make for the holidays and a few of them either call for sour cream
> in the sauce or in the crust.
I would suggest Cacique Crema Mexicana Agria (available in most larger supermarkets in the refrigerated cheese section). It tastes very much like sour
cream...meaning, cream which has been made sour. Very creamy, a little bit tacky, but also very stable when heated.
William de Grandfort
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:16:02 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for "real" sour cream
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Brett wrote:
> I adore labne! Same thing as kefir, but labne is the name I most
> often eat it under.
Nope. Labneh and kefir are NOT the same and are made differently.
Labneh is pretty much just drained yogurt. I love the stuff.
Kefir is made by a different process.
According to
http://www.kefir.net
Both kefir and yogurt are cultured milk products but they contain
different types of beneficial bacteria... Kefir contains several
major strains of friendly bacteria not commonly fond in yogurt,
Lactobacillus Caucasus, Leuconostoc, Acetobacter species, and
Streptococcus species... It also contains beneficial yeasts, such as
Saccharomyces kefir and Torula kefir...
--- edited to remove some health claims ---
I used to love kefir, bu i'm not happy with the flavor or texture of
two brands currently most available here.
Anahita
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:23:08 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sekanjabin Origins
To: ca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Cadoc wrote:
> I remember from Platina, when he covers Milk (which I think was copied from
> Pliny) is he says i should be drunk in liquid or in curds. So we have
> some documentation that people in older times didn't mind their milk
> chunky.
Hunh? We eat chunky milk now. I have some cottage cheese right here
on my desk. And melca, the Roman food, was made by putting a little
vinegar into warm milk and letting it curdle, sort of like yogurt.
Anahita
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:27:41 -0500
From: Brett McNamara <brettmc at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for "real" sour cream
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Nope. Labneh and kefir are NOT the same and are made differently.
I feel bad about this, but I'd have to disagree here. I'd also submit
that http://www.kefir.net seems to be a fry short of a happy meal.
They're pushing a product and leveraging an "ancient" cure-all
mystique.
From http://www.foodsubs.com/Chefresh.html the process cited appears
identical. I've seen many authorities note that this is basically the
same product. I also found this site (
http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefir_cheese.html ) particularly
interesting because it did describe some kefir variants and recipes.
Additionally, the last time I bought labneh at an ethnic market, some
brands billed themselves as both labne and kefir on the container.
Victor's ( http://www.imperialfoods.com/Page2.htm ) was the only one I
could find online. If you look real close, you can see "kefir cheese"
under the giant labne label. Alas, I don't have any other brands to
hand as I chose to purchase a local source. ( Imported dairy products
with expiration dates scare me. )
Wistan
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:14:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Why..chocolate yogurt AND other yogurt
thoughts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
--- Sharon Gordon <gordonse at one.net> wrote:
> I looking for historical information on yogurt, generally I find info
> relating to its origins in the middle east. I've been looking for
> yogurt or yogurt-similar foods in Europe.
I would try looking for references to Filmjolk or Viili. Filmjolk i a
Swedish yogurt-type food, which may be period (it's pretty darned old, from the info I have been able to gather).
William de Grandfort
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:38:42 -0500
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Whey
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>> When I make cheese I follow the same instructions however what is
>> left after removing the solids through a strainer is called whey and
>> is not a good thing to drink, even after being sweetened and
>> fermented. It is a poison and is usually tossed out. It was fed to
>> dogs and pigs for a reason as we cannot digest it properly
The FDA lists it as Generally Recognized as Safe, which means that it
has been used extensively for many years and so is not subject to
regulatory testing:
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?
fr=184.1979
Little Miss Muffet eats a dish of curds and whey in the nursery rhyme.
Some citations for drinking whey noted in the OED: 1732 ARBUTHNOT Rules
of Diet in Aliments, etc. I. 252 Of all Drinks, Whey is the most
relaxing. 1791 SCOTT Let. in Lockhart (1837) I. vi. 183 My uncle drinks
the whey here, as I do ever since I understood it was brought to his
bedside every morning at six, by a very pretty dairy-maid.
The Encyclopedia Britannica says "The whey is removed from the curd
during the process of making cheese; then it is centrifuged to remove
fat, concentrated or dried, and used for human food in processed cheese
products, baking, and candy making. Whey is used for animal feed as a
liquid, concentrate, or dry powder. "
Viking foods were pickled in whey, and Ricotta is a cheese made from
whey. Vikings also drank whey, and drinking whey is mentioned in the
Little House Books by Laura Ingalls Wilder.
--
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:32:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Pat <mordonna22 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Buttermilk
To: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net, Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
I grew up drinking the buttermilk left over after my Big Mama made
butter. She would allow the whole, raw milk to sit at room temperature
overnight (two nights in winter), then skim off the cream for making a
tart, delicious butter, nothing like the insipid product made from
"sweet" cream. The buttermilk was very tart, thicker than whole milk,
but not as dense as the cream. The buttermilk was refrigerated as soon
as it was skimmed. Sometimes, if she let it sit longer than usual, it
would have a slight fizz. Never hurt it a bit.
Pat Griffin
Lady Anne du Bosc
known as Mordonna the Cook
www.mordonnasplace.com
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:54:37 -0700
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Favorite Healthy period dishes, recent study
on vitamin absorption
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
At 07:45 PM 8/14/2006, you wrote:
> What makes you say that sheep milk is healthier than cow milk? Also,
> given the number of manuscript illos that show cows being milked vs the
> number that show sheep being milked (I cant think of any, actually...)
> what led you to believe that non cows milk would be so prevalent?
>
> Intrigued....
> --Anne-Marie, who grew up on goats milk....
I can't address the health of sheep's milk, but there's a great sketch of a
sheep being milked in the Lutrell Psalter- the pic where the sheep are in
the pen. There's a guy milking a sheep right in the middle.
I drank a lot of goat's milk as a kid too- we lived across the street from a
family who raised goats. And when they went on vacation, I did the milking
(and I think I could live the rest of my life without ever doing it again).
But my older daughter, Anne-Marie (SCA Rotrude), is allergic to goat's
milk, and breaks out in a very exciting rash. I've wondered if it had
anything to do with my consumption as a kid. (pun not intended- it just
horned in there...)
'Lainie
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 01:23:43 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Favorite Healthy period dishes, recent study
on vitamin absorption
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Anne-Marie Rousseau wrote:
> What makes you say that sheep milk is healthier than cow milk? Also,
> given the number of manuscript illos that show cows being milked vs the
> number that show sheep being milked (I cant think of any, actually...)
> what led you to believe that non cows milk would be so prevalent?
>
> Intrigued....
> --Anne-Marie, who grew up on goats milk....
Many of us, and i include myself, have certain "prejudices" about
what sorts of food we cook, i.e., we may try to concentrate on the
foods of the culture of our persona. My areas of interest and
preference are around the Mediterranean and into the Middle East,
although i do cook English and German food for feasts, as well, and
have those well-known basic sources on Russian and Polish food in my
library.
I know that in the Mediterranean areas sheep's milk was more common
than cow's milk - frequently for environmental reasons - both
geography and weather. The fats in the milk of sheep and goats are
different from the fats in cow's milk, being more-or-less naturally
"homogenized" in sheep and goat's milk. Because of this, there's no
cream that floats to the surface in these milks. Their fats are also
digested differently by humans and used by our bodies differently
than cow's milk, and they are less likely to cause the same hazards
to health as cow's fats are.
I don't have all the exact information to hand at the moment, but i
can look it up.
The natural sugars are also different and people who have trouble
digesting lactose in cow's milk can often digest sheep or goat's milk.
--
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita
who is a real dairy fiend, but less enamored of meats
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:08:50 -0700
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <dailleurs at liripipe.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Favorite Healthy period dishes, recent study
on vitamin absorption
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,
<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Hi from Anne-Marie, with science geek hat on....
Its true that the fat globules in goats milk are smaller than the ones
in cows milk, making it easier for some people to digest. But lactose is
lactose, regardless of the source. And in fact, goat milk is often
higher in fat than cows milk, which by the time you buy it has been
standardardized to about 4% butterfat (point of reference...my Nubians
would produce milk at about 18% butterfat, while my saanens were about
12% or more, and the alpines were a mere 8%...) an exception to this
would be Jersey milk, but unless you're getting from a Jersey specialty
dairy... and those smaller fat globules? Means the milk is naturally
homogenized, sure, but that means all that fat is IN the milk, not
having been easily scraped off the top...(I spent MANY Hours separating
the cream from our goats milk with a big ol' tinned metal contraption.
Mmmm. Goats milk ice cream....)
Add to that the fact that most goats milk is either raw (ie much shorter
shelf life, so potential of spoilage) or so over processed its really
nasty :P and I really was wondering where folks thought that goat milk
was healthier.
Now, don't get me wrong. Fresh milk from animals with names I DO believe
is healthier than the stuff from the store (hormones, over processing,
over packaging, etc) but that has nothing to do with the species of the
source.
I also fully accept the idea that the culture youÕre focusing on will
potentially change your milk source. Cows like big grassey fields and
lots of rain. Goats and sheep like Greece and the Pyranees ;). But I'd
be careful about assuming anything. As I said, given the prevalence of
visual sources like manuscript illos for medieval western Europe, I'd be
very hesitant to say that goats or sheep was the primary milk source for
them.
Lastly, when producing food for large numbers of folks, I'd be hesitant
to use milk that hadn't been brucellosis and DHI tested. The potential
of impact on anyone with immune system problems, or the very old or the
very young is just too scary for me.
Just my observations...
--AM
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 10:04:23 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] scalding milk
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
On May 31, 2007, at 9:10 AM, Caointiarn wrote:
> My Protogete is making bread pudding from an ancient family heirloom
> cookbook recipe, and the instructions tell her to scald the milk. She
> wants to know "WHY?" and I didn't have an answer for her. So I bring the
> question here for an answer. Is the scalding of milk still really necessary?
>
> Caointiarn
There are some potential benefits, depending on circumstances. If
you're using unhomogenized milk, it's less likely to curdle under
high heat if you scald it first. In this case I assume it has to do
with the mechanics of custard-making, tempering egg yolks to prevent
curdling, get a smoother custard, etc. Kind of like the difference
between a cheesecake baked in a water bath versus one without it.
Some people claim it's not essential, but many can detect a
difference and think it's better to do it.
In the case of a bread pudding I'd do it; the overall baking time is
less, and you're less likely to get watery curdy masses around the
edges while waiting for the middle to be cooked through.
Adamantius
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 18:30:45 -0400
From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] scalding milk
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
--On Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:23 PM -0400 "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus
Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net> wrote:
> On May 31, 2007, at 11:23 AM, Alexandria Doyle wrote:
>> What about in bread or sweet yeast dough type receipts from ye old
>> family heirloom cookbook?
>
> I wonder if, in the case of yeast doughs, it's basically to sterilize
> the milk so weird bacteria, unexpected yeast strains, or odd flavors
> in general don't propagate over the time of proofing.
>
>> Use to do it all the time because the recipe said so... now it's a
>> step I skip, or shorten to warming the milk so it's not ice cold...
>
> It's probably less of an issue for us today, but perhaps it matters.
Found this at <http://www.pgacon.com/KitchenMyths.htm>
You must scald milk before using it in certain recipes
This myth has some basis in fact. Raw milk (milk that has not been
pasteurized) contains enzymes that can interfere with the thickening action
of milk and the rising of bread. The scalding destroys these enzymes.
Today, almost all the milk that is sold has been pasteurized, a process of
heating the milk to destroy bacteria. This has the same effect as scalding
the milk, so by the time you buy the milk those nasty enzymes are already
gone. Unless you milk your own cow, you can skip the scalding.
Scalding can however be beneficial if you are making yogurt or other
cultured milk products. Even pasteurized milk contains some bacteria, and
they can compete with the yogurt culture and affect the result. By heating
milk to 180 degrees you eliminate most of these other organisms and give
the desirable culture bacterial a clean slate to work with.
Source: Kitchen Science, Revised Edition by Howard Hillman.
Houghton-Mifflin, 1989.
toodles, margaret
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 16:32:37 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Yogurt
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
For what it's worth, we have always interpreted "Persian Milk" as
yogurt and it works in the recipes.
> The Spaniards proudly claim the Persians brought yogurt to Spain which
> is perfectly logical but when translating the recipes from laban into
> Spanish they say leche not yogur. I have reviewed all my stuff and took
> a good gander at the below as well. All I can find are two references
> Perry makes in the Anon. translation to laban but does not specify if
> the recipes he is talking about could have been made with yogurt or
> milk. In Medieval Arab Cookery he indicates that laban can be either
> milk or yogurt but most likely yogurt. Can I say it is possible that the
> recipes in which he cites laban could have been made with yogurt?
> Further taking into account yogurt was used in Persian sauces, eggplant
> dishes and stews I would think yogurt could appear in many of the Anon
> recipes instead of milk but can I state that?
>
> Food Timeline <http://www.foodtimeline.org/index.html> history notes:
> muffins to yogurt. _http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodfaq2.html#yogurt_
> Stefan's dairy-prod-msg - 1/23/05
> http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD/dairy-prod-msg.html
> Perry's remarks on yogurt in _Medieval Arab Cookery._ Trowbridge,
> Wiltshire: Prospect Books. 2001
> And Perry's translation of _An Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook of the
> 13th Century:__
> __http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Andalusian/
> andalusian_footnotes.htm_
> http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Andalusian/
> andalusian3.ht
> http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Andalusian/
> andalusian_contents.htm
> Suey
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 17:09:29 -0400
From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Yogurt
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
--On Sunday, June 03, 2007 4:43 PM -0400 Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Carole Smith wrote:
>> . . . He also stated that the promised land was the land of yoghurt
>> (not milk) and honey, and that the original translators had learned the
>> Egyptian version of arabic (and gotten it wrong). . .
> How about Genesis 18:1-15? Picked a clip up on Internet that Abraham did
> not serve curds or curds and whey but yogurt and milk to the three
> strangers in the hospitality message. What does your Bible say? This of
> course takes us back to Miss Muffitt. Did she eat cottage cheese,
> custard or yogurt? When did yogurt get to England by the way? Was it
> before Dr. Thomas Muffitt, Mary Queen of Scots or later? When did yogurt
> in English take on the Turkish name?
> Susan
According to the OED, the word appears in English around the
beginning of
the 17th C:
1625 PURCHAS Pilgrims II. IX. xv. ?9. 1601 Neither doe they [sc. the Turks]
eate much Milke, except it bee made sower, which they call Yoghurd. 1687 A.
LOVELL tr. Thevenot's Trav. II. 25 A kind of Butter-milk by them [sc.
Turks] called Yogourt, which they drink.
toodles, margaret
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:13:01 -0400
From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] I Didn't Know...
To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Greetings! I was just reading the tudorcook blog page and saw this:
> ......not because of anything he did, more the fact that milk today is
> separated from cream in a different manner to the Tudors. Today,
> our milk and cream are separated centrifugally, in the past good old
> gravity did the job....so what you say...well, our milk today has less
> fat in it than in the past and our cream more fat. This meant that when
> Robin came to curdle the milk to make a possett..make a styf poshotte
> of Ale; þan hang þe croddys þer-of in a pynne all he got was a few
> measly lumps floating in a lot of milk/whey.......my fault really as I should
> have ordered cream to mix with the milk to up the fat levels......
I never knew about a difference in separation - only that we homogenize
most of our milk today. I wonder what else is different today that would
make a big difference in the results of our cookery...
Alys Katharine
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:58:06 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Forthcoming titles Fall 2008 LONG
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
As promised sometime back here's a list of some forthcoming fall 08- winter 09
titles that might be of interest to readers of this list.
They cover a full range of topics.
I've included details, descriptions or links where I have them.
A number of the lists I used didn't record prices possibly because
they were not yet set.
Johnnae
-----------------
*Milk: The Surprising Story of Milk Through the Ages *by Anne Mendelson
352 pages. Knopf Publishing Group (7 Oct 2008)
Part cookbook with more than 120 enticing recipes/part culinary history,
part inquiry into the evolution of an industry, Milk is a one-of-a-kind
book that will forever change the way we think about dairy products.
Anne Mendelson is the author of Stand Facing the Stove.
http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl/9781400044108.html
<snip>
<the end>