clotted-cream-msg - 12/15/04
Period and modern clotted cream products. Devonshire cream.
NOTE: See also the files: cheese-msg, cheesemaking-msg, Cheese-Making-art, livestock-msg, butter-msg, dairy-prod-msg.
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This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:19:06 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re:Crustade Lombarde, An Inspiration turned Sour -Reply
JANINE BRANNON wrote:
> What is "Devon" cream - that luscious stuff you
> eat with scones? How is that made? Are there
> any additional ingredients in it? What if we are
> thinking of the wrong type of milk. Maybe this
> "cream" should be some type of soured cream
> or buttermilk ??
>
> Magdelane
Devonshire cream is a form of clotted cream, made from fresh,
unpasteurized, unhomogenized milk. I don't recall if it is scalded
first, but it is essentially held at a temperature just above blood warm
overnight, by which time it will have soured just a bit (which will be
far more evident in the milk than in the cream) and the cream will have
had a chance to float to the top. The surface will have dried out a bit,
and it resembles a sheet of yellow leather. It can be lifted off with a
skimmer, and treated and served in various ways.
An extremely elegant method of serving it is with sheets rolled into a
sort of ball, known in sources from just-post-period as cabbage cream,
because of the shape.
Devonshire cream, when sold commercially, is packed into jars and
pasteurized, so it's uniformly thick and smooth.
It's quite possible to make clotted cream in places other than Devon,
but you really need Devoinshire milk to make Devonshire cream.
Adamantius
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:07:20 -0500
From: "Louise Sugar" <dragonfyr at tycho.com>
Subject: Re: SC - request for Clotted Cream
> Does anyone have a recipe for Clotted Cream?
>
>-Laurene
OK Laurene...this comes from a book called Special Teas by M. Dalton King
ISBN 1-56138-166-7 published by Kenan Books Inc 15 West 26th St New York,
NY 10010. List price $19.95US. This book is a wonderful source for
information on teas and themes/recipies for cookies, preserves, jams, fruit
butters, cakes and many other things. The chapter headings are Tea-The
Drink, House SpecialTeas, A British Cream Tea, An American Cream Tea, A
Southern Tea, High Tea, Thanksgiving Tea, Christmas Tea, Easter Tea, Russian
Tea, Chinese Tea, Children's Tea, Chocolate Lover's Tea, Feel Better Tea,
Late-Night Tea and Bare Bones Tea. Each is a theme including tea and food
and a short 4 or 5 paragraph description of what the tea is about. It also
includes sources for obtaining the various teas used as well as sources for
accessories/furnishings, etc used in each photo layout (I love this because
how many of us have seen something in a photo shoot that we fell in love
with and had no idea where to find)
CLOTTED CREAM (makes 1 1/3 cups serves 4 to 6)
The cream served in England is not available here, although there are a
number of substitutes and facimiles available. We use the following:
1 cup heavy cream, at room temeperature
1/3 cup sour cream, at room temperature
1 tablespoon confectioners sugar
One hour before serving, pour the heavy cream into a bowl and whip until
soft peaks form. Whisk in the sour cream and sugar, continuing to beat
until the mixture is very thick.
Place in the refrigerator and chill until it is time to serve.
If you want to make this ahead of time, it should last 4 to 6 hours in the
refrigerator.
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:04:53 SAST-2
From: "Ian van Tets" <IVANTETS at botzoo.uct.ac.za>
Subject: SC - clotted cream and melted cheese
just wanted to talk about clotted cream. The recipe that was given
sounded rather more like what I know as whipped cream. What I
understood to be clotted cream is, I think, cream that is put into a
flattish earthenware dish and left on the back of the stove at the
very lowest heat possible (try an asbestos or other mat, if possible)
for about 24 hours, by which time it will not have boiled, but
thickened, at least the top layer, and have a crusting that looks
rather like cradle cap. You then put it on some stone to cool down
and eat with just about anything, since it's not sweet. One of the
Elizabeth David recipes for saffron cake uses clotted cream instead
of butter. I'm not altogether sure of this recipe, never having made
it. Doubtless someone else will know better, perhaps Cynethrith?
Also, I _think_ (not certain, have lent out my copy), that the
Gloucester cheese and ale recipe in Elisabeth Ayrton's The Cookery of
England is period? I think it involves melting cheese and ale (and
butter?) and pouring it over bread.
Cairistiona
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:28:34 -0600
From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net>
Subject: SC - Clotted/Clowted Cream Method
>If someone wants to suggest a way of clotting cream, I would be happy to
>try it and tell you what it did. then again, if someone has a better
>redaction of the above, I would be more than happy to use it.
>
>Bogdan din Brasov
Here's my method:
You need either 1 1/2 quarts of Day old from-the-Jersey-Cow (ie: high cream
content) Milk in a sauce pan, or you need a pint of heavy cream and a quart
of whole milk, mixed together briefly in a sauce pan (this works better if
they are not perfectly fresh). Heat at the lowest possible burner setting,
NEVER letting it boil or even simmer. You may wish to turn it off and on if
your lowest heat is too high. It will develop a wrinkled, yellow skin on
top. This could take a hour or more. The skin is good. Leave the skin alone
and heat without stirring. When the skin is pronouncedly wrinkled and thick,
remove the cream/milk from the burner. Let cool several hours or overnight,
very loosely covered if at all. With a spoon, carefully remove the cream
from the surface of the milk, and drain if needed. The lumps of cream are
called clotted cream. If you manage to get the skin off in one piece, you
have cabbage cream (it resembles a wrinkled cabbage leaf). Yield: a scant
pint of clotted cream, and a quart of milk suitable for cooking purposes.
Aoife
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:28:33 -0600 (CST)
From: jeffrey s heilveil <heilveil at students.uiuc.edu>
Subject: SC - Aoife's Surefire Clotted cream
Here is the recipe that Aoife sent me. all you have to do is skim off the
skin. Then again, you may wish to keep some of the liquid cream. This
works with the milk and cream, however, it works just as well with 1.5
quarts of heavy whipping cream. Either way, if you let this chill before
you use it, the consistency becomes more predictable.
Hope you enjoy it. This is PERFECT in Bear's redaction of that Shortbread
recipe.
Bogdan
>From Aoife:
Here's my method:
You need either 1 1/2 quarts of Day old from-the-Jersey-Cow (ie: high cream
content) Milk in a sauce pan, or you need a pint of heavy cream and a quart
of whole milk, mixed together briefly in a sauce pan (this works better if
they are not perfectly fresh). Heat at the lowest possible burner setting,
NEVER letting it boil or even simmer. You may wish to turn it off and on if
your lowest heat is too high. It will develop a wrinkled, yellow skin on
top. This could take a hour or more. The skin is good. Leave the skin alone
and heat without stirring. When the skin is pronouncedly wrinkled and thick,
remove the cream/milk from the burner. Let cool several hours or overnight,
very loosely covered if at all. With a spoon, carefully remove the cream
from the surface of the milk, and drain if needed. The lumps of cream are
called clotted cream. If you manage to get the skin off in one piece, you
have cabbage cream (it resembles a wrinkled cabbage leaf). Yield: a scant
pint of clotted cream, and a quart of milk suitable for cooking purposes.
Aoife
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 23:54:32 +1100
From: Kiriel & Chris <kiriel at cybergal.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Scottish/british food terms
Devra at aol.com wrote:
> I believe that 'single cream' would be equivalent to our 'light cream',
> although I also understand that certain breeds of cow (notably the Jersey
> actually found on the Isle of Jersey) naturally give cream much thicker and
> richer than we are accustomed to here.
>
> 'Double cream', thus, would refer to 'heavy' or 'whipping' cream.
>
> Devra the Baker
Certainly this is the case in Australia. I understand our normal cream
is the equivalent of US heavy/double cream. Normal cream for us is, IIRC
35% fat. Sour cream the same.
I don't know that you could even get the equivalent of King Island Cream
which is something like 55% fat - wicked stuff so thick your spoon
stands upright in it.
I too would love to find the recipe for clotted cream - it is just so
very moreish. All the mouthfeel and taste of thick cream, but not as
cloyingly rich.
Ah well, why don't I look it up! And here is what I found:
Title: CLOTTED CREAM PART 1
Categories: Desserts
Yield: 1 serving
Clotted cream is a traditional product of South West England and
the traditional farmhouse method of manufacture is as follows:
1. Channel Island milk is placed in shallow pans or bowls and left
until the cream rises to the top.
2. The milk is then scalded for about one hour by placing the pan or
bowl over a pan of water maintained at a temperature of about 180^F
(82^C).
3. The cream is ready when it is straw colored and wrinkled in
appearance. It is then cooled overnight or for about twelve hours.
4. When cool the cream should be skimmed off the surface using a
perforated skimmer or a shallow spoon.
5. If the skimmed cream is left in the refrigerator for a few hours
it will thicken further.
Alternatively, clotted cream can be made using the direct scald
method. Double cream is placed in shallow pans or bowls and scalded as
for the traditional method. After scalding and cooling the whole
contents of the pan are used as clotted cream.
Source: "Farmhouse Kitchen", based on the Independent Television
series, presented by Dorothy Sleightholme. Published by Yorkshire
Television Centre, Leeds LS3 IJS, c Trident Television, Ltd., 1976
From the Recipe Files of: Deidre-Anne Penrod, FGGT98B on Prodigy,
J.PENROD3 on GEnie
per Karen Mintzias
Kiriel
Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 23:10:55 -0500
From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com>
Subject: SC - Re: Devonshire Clotted Cream (was Milk OOP)
Lucrezia comments:
<snip>....usual. I don't know if Jersey milk is available here is it?
>>>>You can't even get it here in the UK anymore! (at least not that I've seen)
You can however get Devonshire Clotted Cream in the local supermarket. Mmm,
divine...<<<<
For those of you non U.K. folks, Devonshire clotted cream is
indeed a real treat. If you would like to try it, here is a
traditional recipe (It takes 36 hours to make incidentally):
Take 2 1/2 quarts (2.4L) and 1 1/2 cups ( 3dl) double cream
(whipping cream). Pour the milk and cream into a wide, shallow
pan like a large skillet or preserving pan (or if you happen to have
one like I do, a ninteenth century milk pan from Eastern
Europe). The pan should be firesafe. There is no need to stir.
Let the milk set in a cool place overnight, the fridge will do if you
have room. In the morning, put the pan on very low heat, being
careful not to shake or disturb the pan when you move it. If you
have an uneven heat source like gas or electric burners (rather
than the griddle of an old fuel fired stove) put a distributing
mat under the pan (can you still get asbestos mats?). Let
it stand on heat for 8 to 10 hours. Remove from heat,
again being very careful not to disturb the milk. When cool,
put in the fridge or cool place overnight yet again. In the
morning, skim off the clotted cream with a wide bladed
palette knife or a slice. The clotted cream shoud be yellow
and wrinkled on top and quite thick. The yield should be
about 1/2 pound (240g). Serve on fresh scones
with honey or apple jelly. Or on hot apple pie with a
sprinkle of sugar. MMMMmmmmmmm!
You say you can't find scones at the Safeway?? Well,
here is a recipe for Devonshire Scones. They are a bit richer
than scones from other areas of England. Try spreading
cold clotted cream and strawberry jam on them.
For Devonshire Scones from the northern part of Devon:
Mix 1/2 teaspoon salt into 2 cups (240g) self-rising flour
and rub into 3/4 stick (90g) butter to a crumb-like
consistancy. Whisk 1 egg, 1/2 tablespoon castor sugar
(superfine/ powdered) and 2 tablespoons milk together
and stir into the flour mixture to make a soft dough.
Roll out about 3/4" (2cm) thick and cut in rounds with a
2" (5cm) cutter or in triangle if you prefer. Bake in the
centre of a hot oven, 400 to 425F (200 to 220C or gas Mark
6 to 7), for 10 minutes.
Clotted cream is traditional in the U.K.. When did they start
making it? My guess is the mid 17th century. Anyone have
any firm documentation? Also what is the earliest recipe we
know of for scones? Source for recipes: English Provential
Cooking by Elisabeth Ayrton.
Akim Yaroslavich
Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 08:58:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jeff Heilveil <heilveil at uiuc.edu>
Subject: SC - documenting clotted cream
It was asked how ealy on clotted cream can be documented. Here is the
earliest I have found:
From:_The Widowes Treasure_ (1585) John Partridge. IN: _To the Queen's
Taste_, Lorna Sass.
page 92:
_To make fine Cakes_
"...Then take clouted Creame or sweet butter, but Creame is best:..."
Hope this helps.
In service.
Cu drag,
Bogdan
_______________________________________________________________________________
Jeffrey Heilveil M.S. Ld. Bogdan de la Brasov, C.W.
Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:23:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Norma Jean Storms <tempest at mail.cannet.com>
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #2233--Clotted Cream
Here are a couple of recipes I just happened to have on hand!
YIS,
Francesca
MOCK CLOTTED CREAM
(from: Angel Victorian Tea Book)
1 cp. heavy cream at room temperature
1/3 cp. sour cream at room temperature
1 Tbl. powdered sugar
1 hour before serving, pour cream in a bowl and whip until stiff peaks form.
Whisk in sour cream and sugar, continuing to beat until mixture is very
thick. Refrigerate and chill until time to serve. Experiment with your
own proportion of sugar and sour cream to please your taste.
MOCK CLOTTED CREAM
(from: Gene Simmons, Cook and Tell)
1 (4-oz) pkg. cream cheese (not whipped)
1 tsp. confectioner's sugar
1 cp. whipping cream
dash of vanilla
Blend all ingredients in food processor until 'any thicker would be too
thick'. This is most like the authentic Devonshire cream.
Clotted Cream
5 cups whole milk 1 ¼ cup heavy cream
Mix milk and cream thoroughly in medium pan.
Simmer gently for 1 1/2 hours (surface of cream mixture should be just
barely moving, not actually bubbling).
Remove from heat; let stand at least 3 hours before refrigerating.
Chill overnight.
Remove top layer of clotted cream from pan. Discard remainder of mixture.
Refrigerate cream until used.
Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 03:52:38 -0400
From: "Bethany Public Library" <betpulib at ptdprolog.net>
Subject: Subject: SC - Re: clotted cream
>Would it perhaps be possible to do clotted cream by leaving the pan in an
oven with a pilot light? I have used this to supply gentle heat for bread
rising.
>
>Devra the baker
We actually went over this quite a while ago (before the florilegium posts,
maybe, though I did't read all of them).
You can do this in the oven or on top of the stove. The trick is to warm it
gently and let it stay warm, and it's probably virtal for you to have some
sort of air circulation, so covering it up is not a great idea---you won't
get the wrinkly surface. Lots of folks don't leave the wrinkly bit intact,
but just skim it off the surface and then mix it up. A darn shame, it is.
It's pretty simple to make. If you have trouble maintaining the gentle heat,
try using a pizza stone under the pan. It helps. The thing is to get a
wrinkly skin to float on top of the mixture (you can use milk, and float
cream on top if you like---it's just the top layer you're concerned with).
I'm pretty sure there's a recipe for Clowted Cream in Huswife's Jewel
(Dawson). I remember having a conversation with Adamantius about a recipe
that made pseudo-cabages from the clotted cream.
My personal preference would be for "leaves" of the stuff to be served with
fresh berries mascerated in something luscous and the whole drizzled over
the cream---heart attack inducing, but what a way to go.............
Aoife
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:50:38 -0400
From: "Siegfried Heydrich" <baronsig at peganet.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Double cream
Really? Usually when I made it, I just poured heavy whipping cream into
shallow hotel pans, covered them, and sat them on top of the coolers, where
the warm air from the condenser could blow on them. (had good luck with
warming pads, too) Just left them for 24+ hours, and it clotted quite
nicely. Poured off the semi-clear liquid on top, scored it with a knife
after drizzling it with a bit o' honey, and it was wonderful!
I'm serving this for CoroCrown next weekend, doing Tantallon Triskele
cakes with Peaches & Cream for dessert. (to head off the queries about what
the hell is CoroCrown, we're having Coronation on Saturday, and Crown Lyste
the following day. We're switching the dates for coronations and crown
lists, so it's going to be a weird event. And you don't EVEN want to know
why we're doing it, either.)
Sieggy
> Maddalena asked:
> > Anybody know what "double cream" is?
>
> Double Cream is cream which contains no less than 48%
> butterfat content, and is usually commercially
> produced by centrifugal seperation. It is right
> between "Heavy whipping Cream" (%35-45) and "clotted
> cream" (%55). I have not had much success finding it
> in the States. I would substitute by reducing heavy
> whipping cream by 1/3 to 1/2 (and have done so on many
> occasions.) The only drawback to this is the "cooked"
> taste which results, which is fairly similar to
> Devonshire Clotted Cream. Hope this helps
>
> Balthazar of Blackmoor
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 14:16:05 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Double cream
Chris Stanifer wrote:
> You were making clotted cream, then, and not Double
> cream, right? My suggestion was for reducing heavy
> cream in order to approximate the butterfat content of
> Double cream.
Another tactic I've used, that seems to work for me, is to heat the
cream and swirl very fresh, unsalted butter into it, in various
proportions for various uses. I find that this is slightly less likely
to give the cream a cooked taste than reducing it would, and you can
reduce the cooked taste still further by using a small amount of cream,
adding a lot of butter, stirring slowly as this mixture cools, then
adding more cream that hasn't been heated.
Adamantius
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:13:48 -0700
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Double cream
> Adamantius: Another tactic I've used, that seems to work for me, is to heat
> the cream and swirl very fresh, unsalted butter into it, in various
> proportions for various uses. I find that this is slightly less likely
> to give the cream a cooked taste than reducing it would, and you can
> reduce the cooked taste still further by using a small amount of cream,
> adding a lot of butter, stirring slowly as this mixture cools, then
> adding more cream that hasn't been heated.
As a matter of fact, cleaning out my late mistress' house, I found a rare old
plastic hand-powered appliance, a 'cream maker.' You agitate the handle and the
milk + melted unsalted butter inside combine into cream. You can adjust the fat
content in the cream according to the proportions of milk to butter. I ought to
bring it to a no-electricity camping event some time and test it out [behind the
reed curtain into non-period-equipment-land of course].
Selene
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 11:33:43 -0800
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Clotted Cream taste test
Kateryn de Develyn wrote:
> I obtained some clotted cream (commercial - in a jar) yesterday.
>
> So I conducted a little taste test since I have some medieval recipes calling for clotted cream. It tasted exactly like the homemade butter you can make by shaking heavy whipping cream(for what seems like forever), or unsalted butter (available in the freezer section of your grocery store).
>
> It does not taste anything like the clotted cream which is made essentially like evaporated milk. IE: cream set near an oven vent which is set on low heat (250 degrees) for overnight. Now, that cream which does get a very thick skin on top, tastes a lot like evaporated milk.
>
> Which is the most period? The commerical stuff or the top-of-oven stuff? Probably the top-of-oven stuff. How would I make a substitution for it out of modern ingredients? I would use unsalted butter (for the appropriate texture) and a tablespoon or two of evaporated milk (for the appropriate flavor).
>
> Has anyone else tried making clotted cream or substituting for it?
>
> Kateryn de Develyn
The commercial stuff is crap, the metallic flavor of whatever they do to it for export ruins it completely. The clotted cream I had in Devon and Cornwall was a substance of similar texture to stirred sour cream, but sweet as heaven without sugar added. I believe it has a fat content higher than anything
you can get in the states. What might work is if you ran the heaviest cream available in the US in a blender with melted, unsalted, clarified butter, and THEN did the top-of-the-stove thing. I think I have instructions for that, but as usual, that's at home and I'm at work.
Occasionally I'll use Crema Mexicana from a jar, but as a topping not as an ingredient. This advice is only useful if you live in an area with Mexican neighborhoods, which I suspect are in short supply in Calontir. I could be wrong.
Selene, Caid
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:54:09 -0600
From: "Alex Wollangk" <orion at mailbag.com>
Subject: SC - OOP- Devonshire or Clotted Cream from Joy of Cooking
Found this in "The Joy of Cooking":
Devonshire or Clotted Cream
One of those regional specialties calling for certified unpasteurized cream.
In winter, let fresh cream stand 12 hours; in summer, about 6 hours, in a
heatproof dish. Then put the cream on to heat - the lower the heat, the
better. It must never boil, as this will coagulate the albumen and ruin
everything. When small rings or undulations form on the surface, the cream
is sufficiently scalded. Remove at once from the heat and store in a cold
place at least 12 hours. Then skim the thick, clotted cream and serve it
very cold as a garnish for berries.
Bran
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:00:54 -0800
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SC - OOP- Devonshire or Clotted Cream from Joy of Cooking
I've tried this several times, but U.S. cream does not seem to have the fat
content to make this really worthwhile.
Selene, Caid
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 21:55:45 -0600
From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com>
Subject: Subject: SC - OOP- Devonshire or Clotted Cream from Joy of Cooking
>Has anyone else tried making clotted cream or substituting for it?
What I have tried is from Elisabeth Ayrton's English Provincial
Cooking, but it is made from regular milk.
In the early evening, pour 2 1/2 quarts of cold fresh cold milk
(regular milk) into a wide shallow pan. If you want large
quantities, add 1/2 to 1 pint of double (whipping) cream. There
is no need to stir. Leave it on the shelf of the refrigerator or any
cool place overnight. In the morning, place the pan, being very
careful not to shake or disturb it, on a very low heat for 8 to 10
hours. The author recommends a heat distributing mat (like an
old time asbestos mat) being placed under the pan. Remove the pan,
again taking care not to shake or disturb it and store again in the
refrigerator
or other cool place overnight. In the morning skim off the cream with
a wide-bladed pallette knife or a slicer. The clotted cream should be yellow,
wrinkled on top and quite thick. Serve cold on fresh scones with fruit
jam or treacle.
Prepared this way, it does not seem like butter to me at all. The thicker
areas of this have the thickness of soft Philadelpia cheese and the more
liquid part like yougart. I did not get much of a taste of evaporated milk.
I am more minded of fresh curd but far creamier, maybe with a bit of
nutlike taste from the slow scalding. The author claims this is the way it
has always been made in Devon and Dorset since (I suppose) medieval
times.
Akim Yaroslavich
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 09:34:36 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Clotted Cream taste test
lilinah at earthlink.net writes:
<< Can't imagine what you could use as a substitute. Mascarpone? I
wouldn't mix butter and evaporated milk as that wouldn't make a
product even remotely close to what i had in England. >>
This pretty accurate, IMO. What I had was slightly sourish witha hint of
barnyard. :-) It was very silky and and was really deliscious with the
marmalade and scones that were served with it. Wonderful stuff but nothing I
have eaten in the US remotely resembles it. :-(
Ras
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:30:30 -0500
From: "Siegfried Heydrich" <baronsig at peganet.com>
Subject: Re: SC - OOP- Devonshire or Clotted Cream from Joy of Cooking
> I've tried this several times, but U.S. cream does not seem to have the fat
> content to make this really worthwhile.
I dunno, I've made it several times with heavy cream and it came out
just fine. It's been like 25 years since I tasted real devonshire cream, but
it tasted pretty much the same to me, at least to my debased american
tastes. It's expensive, but it's so rich that only small portions are
needed. It's interesting to see the expression on peoples faces when they
try it - they LIKE it, but it doesn't really equate to anything they're used
to. I've had people confuse it for cool whip, yogurt, ricotta, and pureed
cottage cheese (no kidding - had one person ask me if that was how I made
it. Go fig. re: debased american tastes . . .), so it usually takes them
about 30 seconds of eyerolling and eyebrow wriggling before deciding to try
another spoonful. Then they're hooked.
Sieggy
From: Riley Robin W PSNS <rileyr at psns.navy.mil>
Date: November 2, 2004 5:10:09 PM CST
To: Riley Robin W PSNS <rileyr at psns.navy.mil>
Cc: "'stefan at florilegium.org'" <stefan at florilegium.org>
Subject: Herb's Clotted Cream Complaint?
-----Original Message-----
From: Riley Robin W PSNS [mailto:rileyr at psns.navy.mil]
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:23 PM
To: 'Herbert Stahlke'; veenker at insightbb.com
Cc: 'O'Reilly, Daniel'; bible-l at lists.wku.edu
Subject: [Bible-l] Herb's Clotted Cream Complaint?
"Clotted cream and honey shall he eat
before he knows to reject evil and to choose good.
For ere the lad will know to reject evil and choose good,
forsaken shall be the ground which you are irritating,
of the presence of its two kings."
(Robin)
What's with this "clotted cream" stuff ... ummm?
(Herb)
The concordant translation of Is. 7:15 raises two questions (of course if
the HB had been in Norman-accented French it would cr¸me fraiche) ...
(Robin)
Ummmmm ... maybe, maybe not? Your cr¸me fra”che is a heavy cream slightly
soured with bacterial culture, but not as sour or as thick as American sour
cream (Mexican crema or "cream espesa" is similar) ...
I would hazard the guess that this scriptural "clotted cream" is more
like what you often find, today (in eastern countries), called "Leben" ......
there's even a variety of this, called "kosher yogurt," which has a culture
that won't allow the pH to drop lower than 5.1; this "liquidy" leben, is
considered a drink, and a "berachah acharonah" does not be recited unless
3.3. oz. are consumed within a very short time period (not the rate at
which such foods are commonly consumed) ...
In the UK, this "clotted cream" is a very high fat (55%) product
processed with heat (scalded milk) ... made by combining two parts whole
milk with one part heavy cream, heating at the very lowest possible heat for
a couple of hours until a skin forms, leaving it undisturbed overnight, and
then harvesting the skin and its underclots (one may do whatever one likes
with the remaining milk) ...
Please notice that the SCRIPTURES do make a distinction between
"clotted cream" and just plain milk, be it from cows, goats, sheep or camels
......
"clotted cream of the herd and milk of the flock" (Deut 32:14)
...... Cream, itself is the higher-fat layer dairy product skimmed from
the top of raw milk. And cream has a varity of grades, depending on
fat content; in the U.S., it is usually sold as:
Half-and-half (12% fat)
Whipping cream and whipped cream (30%)
Heavy cream, or heavy whipping cream (36%)
Manufacturer's cream (40%)
Also common in the U.S. is sour cream,
which is has been subjected to a bacterial culture
that produces lactic acid, and that thickens the cream.
In the UK, it is usually sold as:
Half cream (12%)
Single cream or Light cream (18%)
Whipping cream (35%)
Double cream (48%)
Cream with more than 30% fat can be turned into
whipped cream by mixing it with air. This roughly
doubles the cream's volume as air bubbles are captured
in a network of fat droplets. If the whipping is continued,
the fat droplets stick together and form butter;
the remaining liquid is buttermilk.
(Herb)
The concordant translation of Is. 7:15 raises two questions ...
1. Why did the concordant translators choose that translation? Because of
the artificial constraint that concordantism/ness/ance places on word
choice, no concordant choice can be defended as semantically or culturally
driven. Was it that "curds" was already used for something else? Why a
two-word phrase where Hebrew has one word?
(Robin)
That's much more than just two questions, even if we discount the rant
about "concordantism" ... actually, Herb, this was a quote from that
well respected bible translation called "Young's Literal Version," but
be that as it may, let's still look at your multiphased question ...
Q: Why a two-word phrase where Hebrew has one word?
A: Suppose we could have used "Leben" (a single word),
but that would have only been a good cultural guess.
Perhaps we might even have just transliterated it as
"chem'ah" or the shortened "chemah" (Strong's #02529) ...
But then, this Hebrew word is, indeed, very much so,
"clotted cream" pure and simple, so why not communicate
this fact to English readers ...
Or, perhaps, your question/complaint is really more so,
that this English translation is clumsy in that it has to
use "two words" to translate the original Hebrew ...
surely you're not suggesting that this isn't a common
practice in ALL translations!?
But I know you'll be most happy and pleased to know that
despite their having to use two English words, that BOTH
the Young's and the Concondant Versions did follow through,
very strickly, with their artificial constraints of "concordantance,"
and not allowed either of these two words to be used elsewhere
for any other orginal language (Hebrew) words ... more than
can be said for any of the other tranlations, I looked at,
dealing with this ... there's a lot to be learned from simple
"consistency," for example by my following up on our "clotted cream"
question, using concordant tools, I discovered the little matter of
"Kethiv Readings" ... In the Hebrew Bible, the scribes did not alter
any text that they felt had been copied incorrectly. Rather they noted
in the margin what they thought the written text should be. The written
variation is called a "kethiv" and the marginal note is called the
"qere."
There are 305 verses in the Old Testament with this property ... Zec 14:6
being one of these "kethiv readings" dealing with the Hebrew word for
"curdled" ... but then, I'm getting ahead of myself, and starting to
answer yet another portion of your multifaceted "first question" ...
(Herb)
The concordant translation of Is. 7:15 raises two questions ...
1. Why did the concordant translators choose that translation? Because of
the artificial constraint that concordantism/ness/ance places on word
choice, no concordant choice can be defended as semantically or culturally
driven. Was it that "curds" was already used for something else? Why a
two-word phrase where Hebrew has one word?
(Robin)
Q: Why did the concordant translators choose that translation?
A: Suppose, because it's the most accurate choice of words!?
But then, let's not be subjective, let's take a closer look,
seems our Hebrew word shows up in only a few places:
And taking is he clotted cream and milk ...(Gen 18:8)
... clotted cream of the herd and milk of the flock (Deut 32:14)
... The streams of torrents of honey and clotted cream (Job 20:17)
... When my goings were washed in clotted cream ... (Job 29:6)
Words from his mouth are slicker than clotted cream ...(Psa 55:21)
For as the squeezing of milk brings forth clotted cream ...(Prov
30:33)
Clotted cream and honey shall he eat before ... (Isai 7:15)
... and it comes, from the vast yield of milk,
he shall eat clotted cream, for clotted cream
and honey shall everyone eat, who is left within the land. (Isai
7:22)
Ummm ... this aint "butter" or the "cheese of kine," which are compleatly
different Hebrew words, nor is it the Hebrew for congealed or "curdled,"
it's clotted, and to put an even finer point to it, it's clotted cream,
not clotted "milk" (yet another Hebrew word)!
<the end>