cheese-soups-msg - 9/26/09 Period cheese soups. Recipes. NOTE: See also the files: soup-msg, sops-msg, cheese-msg, cheesemaking-msg, broths-msg, thickening-msg, porridges-msg, mustard-soup-msg, onion-soups-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:21:36 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - cheese soup Stefan asks: >I imagine cheese soups are period. Any direct evidence? There is a "Green Broth of Eggs and Cheese" in Menagier de Paris (late 14th c.) Quite good, although some people give poached eggs floating in soup a funny look. Take parsley and a little cheese and sage and a very small amount of saffron, moistened bread, and mix with water left from cooking peas, or stock, grind and strain: And have ground ginger mixed with wine, and put on to boil; then add cheese and eggs poached in water, and let it be a bright green. Item, some do not add bread, but instead of bread use bacon. [end of original] 3 T parsley 1/2 oz cheese, grated 3 small leaves fresh sage 5 threads saffron 2 thin slices = 1.5 oz white bread 2 c pea stock or dilute chicken stock 1/8 t ginger 1 T white wine 1 3/4 oz cheese, grated 3 eggs Soak bread in stock (either water left from cooking peas or 1/2 c canned chicken broth + 1 1/2 c water). Grind parsley, sage, and saffron in a mortar thoroughly; add 1/2 oz cheese and soaked bread and grind together. Strain through a strainer; if necessary, put back in mortar what didn't go through, grind again, and strain again. Mix wine and ginger, add to mixture, and bring to a boil over moderate heat; be careful that it does not stick to the bottom. Stir in the rest of the cheese; break eggs into soup, and continue to simmer until eggs are poached. The above is in our Miscellany 6th edition, which is on the Web. For future reference, should I post such recipes or just say "from the Miscellany" and let those interested look it up? Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:12:51 +0000 From: Karen at agent.infodata.com (Harris, Karen) To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: OOP Cheese soup recipe Cariadoc's Miscellany includes not one, but TWO period cheese soup recipes: "Green Broth of Eggs and Cheese" from Le Menagier de Paris (France ca. 1395), and "Zanzarella" from De Honesta Voluptate (Venice ca. 1475). They can both be found at http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/soups.html Karen Larsdatter Barony of Ponte Alto, Atlantia Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:23:49 -0600 From: Sinclair To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Cheese Soup...Help!! There is a recipe for cheese soup in Pleyn Dilit: Medieval Cookery for Modern Cooks by Constance Hieatt & Sharon Butler. In my copy it's on page 5. Soup of Milk, eggs, cheese 6 hard boiled eggs 3 cups milk 1/2-1 cup breadcrumbs(depending on how finely ground, or 3 TBSP rice flour or cornstarch 1/4 tsp ground cumin 1/4 tsp ground saffron 1/2 tsp salt about 3/4 cup soft or semi-soft cheese cut into pieces Beat together egg yolks, milk, and all other ingredients except the egg wites and the cheese (use a blender). Cook, stirring constantly, in a pan over medium heat until thick. Mince the egg whites and add them to the hot liquid along with the cheese. Stir for a few minutes more before serving. The author atttributes the recipe to Ancient Cookery, a appendage to the 14th C Forme of Cury published in London in the 18th C. From: david friedman Subject: SC - Cheese soup At 10:17 AM -0500 3/12/99, Jeff Gedney wrote: >Does anyone have nay references to a dish that would now be called >"cheese soup". I have been requested to find one for easter dinner. From le Menagier de Paris by way of the Miscellany: Green Broth of Eggs and Cheese Menagier p. M-22 Take parsley and a little cheese and sage and a very small amount of saffron, moistened bread, and mix with water left from cooking peas, or stock, grind and strain: And have ground ginger mixed with wine, and put on to boil; then add cheese and eggs poached in water, and let it be a bright green. Item, some do not add bread, but instead of bread use bacon. [end of original] 3 T parsley 1/2 oz cheese, grated 3 small leaves fresh sage 5 threads saffron 2 thin slices = 1.5 oz white bread (or bacon) 2 c pea stock or dilute chicken stock 1/8 t ginger 1 T white wine 1 3/4 oz cheese, grated 3 eggs Soak bread in stock (either water left from cooking peas or 1/2 c canned chicken broth + 1 1/2 c water). Grind parsley, sage, and saffron in a mortar thoroughly; add 1/2 oz cheese and soaked bread and grind together. Strain through a strainer; if necessary, put back in mortar what didn't go through, grind again, and strain again. Mix wine and ginger, add to mixture, and bring to a boil over moderate heat; be careful that it does not stick to the bottom. Stir in the rest of the cheese; break eggs into soup, and continue to simmer until eggs are poached. Note: We have used both Gouda and cheddar cheese; both are good. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 18:51:16 EDT From: Seton1355 at aol.com Subject: SC - Rec: zuppa alla parvese From the **GOOD AND GARLICKY, THICK & HEARTY, SOUL-SATISFYING, MORE THAN MINISTRONE ITALIAN SOUP COOKBOOK** by Joe Famularo **POACHED EGGS PARMIGIANO IN BROTH** **ZUPPA ALLA PAVESE** Alla pavase means "in the style of Pavia", a city close to the Po river in Lombardy region of Italy. This soup is called "alle pavese" because it was created in Pavia in 1525 for Francis I, King of France who was fighting Emperor Chas. V in the battle of Pavia. As Lombardy is the greatest producer of milk in Italy, butter and cream are fresh and abundant. The soup therefore is enriched by butter, not oil, and butter is used to brown the bread. 4 T unsalted butter, melted 12 slices of Italian bread, each 1" thick 8 C beef broth or chicken broth 6 eggs, poached 6 T freshly grated parmigano cheese salt and freshly ground black pepper to taste Preheat oven to 350 Butter all the bread slices on both sides and place them on a baking sheet. Toast the bread in the oven, turning once, until golden on both sides (about 15 min) While the bread is toasting, bring the broth to a boil in a medium size soup pot over medium heat. Cover and reduce heat to a slow and steady simmer. Place 2 slices each of toasted bread into 6 wide soup bowls, arranging the slices, side by side. Place a poached egg over the bread slices. Sprinkle with 1 T grated cheese. Be sure the broth is really hot and ladel it over the eggs. Add salt and pepper and serve immediately. Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 19:14:20 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Zanzarelli To: "Cooks within the SCA" I've been experimenting. Here is the first recipe (from the work of Maestro Martino) for the Protectorate Feast I am preparing. Zanzarelli is a rich, spicy egg drop soup with cheese in it. Margaret and I both enjoyed it and I will probably make it again some cold Winter afternoon. The process took about 10 minutes. The broth was canned chicken broth. I did not add salt because it was already present in the broth. I will be using broth of my preparation for the feast, and will be adding salt. The spices are about 8 months old and not as potent as I would like. I'll be using fresh spices for the feast. Salting and spicing will be done to taste. Bear Zanzarelli To make zanzarelli. To make ten platefuls, take eight eggs, half a libra of grated cheese, and breadcrumbs, and mix these things together. Then take a pot of meat broth colored yellow with saffron and put it on the fire; and when it begins to boil put in this mixture and stir with a spoon. And when it seems to have thickened, then remove the pot from the fire and serve up, then sprinkle with spices. Martino, Maestro, Libro de arte coquinaria 20 ounces of broth or stock 2 eggs 1 Tablespoon of grated or shredded romano or parmesan cheese 1 Tablespoon fine breadcrumbs 1/4 teaspoon each of black pepper, cinnamon and ginger, blended Salt to taste 2 threads of saffron (if desired) Whisk the eggs in a bowl Add the cheese and the breadcrumbs and whisk until evenly dispersed and the mixture thickens. Put the broth in a saucepan and bring to a boil. Add the saffron, remove from the heat and let stand for a few minutes to permit the saffron to color the broth. Return the broth to the heat and bring to a second boil. Add the egg mixture and whisk until the ingredients are blended into the broth. Remove from heat. Add the spice blend 1/4 teaspoon at a time, whisking them into the broth, until the desired taste is reached. Makes 3 cups of soup. The recipe produces a rich soup similar to egg drop soup. Adding more cheese and breadcrumbs will thicken the soup. Spices should be added by taste, as fresh spices may require less than specified in the recipe. Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 10:24:44 -0700 From: Jim Davis Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] My Next Feast To: Cooks within the SCA I used the Green Bruet with Cheese and Eggs 3 years ago at Caid 12th night with great success. I used a vegetable-based broth concentrate from Whole Foods market, so i could feed it to vegetarians, who will sometimes eat eggs, I find. I had two soups: that and an onion-based soup. I came closest to running out of the Green Bruet. Jared Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:32:58 -0500 From: chawkswrth at aol.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soup and eggs question To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org This is one of the two I found. the other I am looking at is at home (I'm at work) on that computer. :-) But, this should give you an idea of what I m looking at. From le Menagier de Paris by way of the Miscellany: Green Broth of Eggs and Cheese Menagier p. M-22 Take parsley and a little cheese and sage and a very small amount of saffron, moistened bread, and mix with water left from cooking peas, or stock, grind and strain: And have ground ginger mixed with wine, and put on to boil; then add cheese and eggs poached in water, and let it be a bright green. Item, some do not add bread, but instead of bread use bacon. [end of original] 3 T parsley 1/2 oz cheese, grated 3 small leaves fresh sage 5 threads saffron 2 thin slices = 1.5 oz white bread (or bacon) 2 c pea stock or dilute chicken stock 1/8 t ginger 1 T white wine 1 3/4 oz cheese, grate 3 eggs Soak bread in stock (either water left from cooking peas or 1/2 c canned chicken broth + 1 1/2 c water). Grind parsley, sage, and saffron in a mortar thoroughly; add 1/2 oz cheese and soaked bread and grind together. Strain through a strainer; if necessary, put back in mortar what didn't go through, grind again, and strain again. Mix wine and ginger, add to mixture, and bring to a boil over moderate heat; be careful that it does not stick to the bottom. Stir in the rest of the cheese; break eggs into soup, and continue to simmer until eggs are poached. Helen Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:40:23 +1200 From: Antonia Calvo To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience? Volker Bach wrote: <<< I was booked to cook a feast in December and I am looking again at the French tradition. One piece that looked interesting is the Vivendier's recipe #26 for soupe crottee. Basically, it's cheese and white bread boiled in water and wine. I can think of several interpretations here, from a cheese-flavoured (but otherwise fairly insipid) bread porridge to a mass of goo with soggy bread lumps in it. Has anyone here tried this recipe or a similar one, and if so, with what results? I was thinking along the lines of trying a relatively small amount of water and a long cooking period to cause the bread to fall apart, giving me a rich porridgelike dish that could be glooped over sops. >>> First of all, I'd like to say yum, yum! I'm not sure why you expect this to be gloopy, lumpy or porridgy. I expect it to be about the consistancy of, well, thickish soup. I'm not sure a long cooking time, thickness, and cheese are mutually compatible. -- Antonia di Benedetto Calvo Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:12:15 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience? On Sep 24, 2009, at 6:40 PM, Antonia Calvo wrote: <<< First of all, I'd like to say yum, yum! I'm not sure why you expect this to be gloopy, lumpy or porridgy. I expect it to be about the consistancy of, well, thickish soup. >>> Did you see English bread sauce in your mind for just a moment here, too? <<< I'm not sure a long cooking time, thickness, and cheese are mutually compatible. >>> I think I'm inclined to agree. I think the instruction to boil everything together may be part of an overall desire to keep the dish from breaking, but the bread will still give it a curdled appearance (which Scully seems to claim is the probable source for the name). Maybe try thinking of it as a sort of emulsified broth made rather quickly: boil water and wine in a wide pan, throw in your bread and cheese and stir the living bejeebus out of it until the cheese is melted and the bread completely moistened and semi-disintegrated, serve hot quickly... A lot will depend on the cheese and the bread. Adamantius Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 12:21:06 +1200 From: Antonia Calvo To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience? Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote: <<< < I'm not sure why you expect this to be gloopy, lumpy or porridgy. I expect it [soupe crottee] to be about the consistancy of, well, thickish soup. > Did you see English bread sauce in your mind for just a moment here, too? >>> It was lot more than a moment, actually. <<< < I'm not sure a long cooking time, thickness, and cheese are mutually compatible. > I think I'm inclined to agree. I think the instruction to boil everything together may be part of an overall desire to keep the dish from breaking, but the bread will still give it a curdled appearance (which Scully seems to claim is the probable source for the name). Maybe try thinking of it as a sort of emulsified broth made rather quickly: boil water and wine in a wide pan, throw in your bread and cheese and stir the living bejeebus out of it until the cheese is melted and the bread completely moistened and semi-disintegrated, serve hot quickly... >>> My thought was that if you added the bread and cheese a bit more slowly, didn't put in excessively much stirred well, and didn't boil too hard, you'd get something midway between a thinnish bread sauce and a thinnish fondue. Would be great with some toast sippets and with some cinnamon, pepper and sugar on top, or some well-fried onions. -- Antonia di Benedetto Calvo Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:35:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Volker Bach To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience? --- Antonia Calvo schrieb am Fr, 25.9.2009: Volker Bach wrote: <<< I was booked to cook a feast in December and I am looking again at the French tradition. One piece that looked interesting is the Vivendier's recipe #26 for soupe crottee. Basically, it's cheese and white bread boiled in water and wine. I can think of several interpretations here, from a cheese-flavoured (but otherwise fairly insipid) bread porridge to a mass of goo with soggy bread lumps in it. Has anyone here tried this recipe or a similar one, and if so, with what results? I was thinking along the lines of trying a relatively small amount of water and a long cooking period to cause the bread to fall apart, giving me a rich porridgelike dish that could be glooped over sops. >>> First of all, I'd like to say yum, yum! I'm not sure why you expect this to be gloopy, lumpy or porridgy. I expect it to be about the consistancy of, well, thickish soup. I'm not sure a long cooking time, thickness, and cheese are mutually compatible. =========== Well, I'm not terribly conversant with the ways of cheese cookery, so I'm going from my experience with bread porridge. When i say 'long', I mean in terms of a few minutes. The recipe says nothing about stirring, but I assume that that will be required to keep the cheese from sticking and burning. Scully writes of speculation that 'crottee' is derived from the lumpy or curdled appearance of the dish, so I don't expect a smooth soup. I'm also a bit surprised that it uses water rather than broth. What kind of cheese would you think would work? I'm starting out with the cheap stuff until I get my technique down, but I'm thinking a more intense flavour would be good. The recipe says 'fat' cheese. Cheers Giano Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 07:04:32 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience? Guyere, if you can find it, would be yummy. Failing that, try Asiago (not sure if it's period but it'd be good) or even Swiss. Kiri On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 6:35 AM, Volker Bach wrote: <<< What kind of cheese would you think would work? I'm starting out with the cheap stuff until I get my technique down, but I'm thinking a more intense flavour would be good. The recipe says 'fat' cheese. Giano >>> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 09:13:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Raphaella DiContini To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience? I would humbly suggest trying fontina, as it's fairly fatty and tends to melt well. It has a good flavor, but isn't overpowering. Raffaella Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 07:28:11 +1200 From: Antonia Calvo To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience? Johnna Holloway wrote: <<< I could see this as made up for 4-6 servings, but I am wondering about the practicalities of it when made up for a feast for 40 or 60 or 100 people. How's it going to work when it's gallons of soup, pounds of bread, and pounds of cheese? >>> I think you could do it for 40-60, but you would have to do it in more than one pot. <<< Will it hold up well if feast is delayed? >>> A simple threat to use would be "People who do not come to table on time will NOT get any cheese soup." -- Antonia di Benedetto Calvo Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 07:31:07 +1200 From: Antonia Calvo To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience? Susan Lin wrote: <<< I agree - this would be difficult from what I have read to make in a large quantity. Could it be revised to resemble more of what in modern times is french onion soup? Where the bread is placed on top of the broth and the cheese on top of that? >>> Probably, but bread floating in wina and water with cheese on to isn't quite the point of the recipe. It also doesn't sound all that good. <<< I've tried to make cheese soup and if you're not very careful you can get much gloppyness as the cheese congeels and sticks together (and then burns to the bottom of the pan). >>> It helps if you go slowly-- if you add too much cheese at once, it really likes to glom together rather than mix with the liquid-- especially if you add the cheese to liquid that isn't quite hot enough. -- Antonia di Benedetto Calvo Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 11:27:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience? Hi Giano! I have been looking and looking for my copy of the Vivendier. I seem to have misplaced it somewhere, so I cannot comment about what the actual recipe says, since you didn't provide it with your post, but how you describe this recipe reminds me a lot of K?sesuppe, which I have made and have made for a banquet of 150 people. I had no problem with the cheese gloping or burning. The key to this I feel is to heat up your base, be it beef stock or wine then lower the flame and add the cheese until it melts. I used pre-grated Swiss cheese. Once it has melted, take the soup off the heat and immediately add your thickener [eggs and cream]. Then season. When you serve the soup, put croutons and rings of onion in and serve immediately. When the soup got the diners, the croutons had softened, but were still recognizable as croutons. I hope that this will give you some help even if I cannot speak directly to the recipe you are working with. Huette Edited by Mark S. 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