cheese-soups-msg - 9/26/09
Period cheese soups. Recipes.
NOTE: See also the files: soup-msg, sops-msg, cheese-msg, cheesemaking-msg, broths-msg, thickening-msg, porridges-msg, mustard-soup-msg, onion-soups-msg.
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:21:36 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - cheese soup
Stefan asks:
>I imagine cheese soups are period. Any direct evidence?
There is a "Green Broth of Eggs and Cheese" in Menagier de Paris (late 14th
c.) Quite good, although some people give poached eggs floating in soup a
funny look.
Take parsley and a little cheese and sage and a very small amount of
saffron, moistened bread, and mix with water left from cooking peas, or
stock, grind and strain: And have ground ginger mixed with wine, and put on
to boil; then add cheese and eggs poached in water, and let it be a bright
green. Item, some do not add bread, but instead of bread use bacon. [end of
original]
3 T parsley
1/2 oz cheese, grated
3 small leaves fresh sage
5 threads saffron
2 thin slices = 1.5 oz white bread
2 c pea stock or dilute chicken stock
1/8 t ginger
1 T white wine
1 3/4 oz cheese, grated
3 eggs
Soak bread in stock (either water left from cooking peas or 1/2 c canned
chicken broth + 1 1/2 c water). Grind parsley, sage, and saffron in a
mortar thoroughly; add 1/2 oz cheese and soaked bread and grind together.
Strain through a strainer; if necessary, put back in mortar what didn't go
through, grind again, and strain again. Mix wine and ginger, add to
mixture, and bring to a boil over moderate heat; be careful that it does
not stick to the bottom. Stir in the rest of the cheese; break eggs into
soup, and continue to simmer until eggs are poached.
The above is in our Miscellany 6th edition, which is on the Web. For
future reference, should I post such recipes or just say "from the
Miscellany" and let those interested look it up?
Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:12:51 +0000
From: Karen at agent.infodata.com (Harris, Karen)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: OOP Cheese soup recipe
Cariadoc's Miscellany includes not one, but TWO period cheese soup
recipes: "Green Broth of Eggs and Cheese" from Le Menagier de Paris
(France ca. 1395), and "Zanzarella" from De Honesta Voluptate (Venice
ca. 1475).
They can both be found at http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/soups.html
Karen Larsdatter
Barony of Ponte Alto, Atlantia
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:23:49 -0600
From: Sinclair <jeffdp at earthlink.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Cheese Soup...Help!!
There is a recipe for cheese soup in Pleyn Dilit: Medieval Cookery for
Modern Cooks by Constance Hieatt & Sharon Butler.
In my copy it's on page 5.
Soup of Milk, eggs, cheese
6 hard boiled eggs
3 cups milk
1/2-1 cup breadcrumbs(depending on how finely ground,
or 3 TBSP rice flour or cornstarch
1/4 tsp ground cumin
1/4 tsp ground saffron
1/2 tsp salt
about 3/4 cup soft or semi-soft cheese cut into pieces
Beat together egg yolks, milk, and all other ingredients except the egg
wites and the cheese (use a blender). Cook, stirring constantly, in a pan
over medium heat until thick. Mince the egg whites and add them to the hot
liquid along with the cheese. Stir for a few minutes more before serving.
The author atttributes the recipe to Ancient Cookery, a appendage to the
14th C Forme of Cury published in London in the 18th C.
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - Cheese soup
At 10:17 AM -0500 3/12/99, Jeff Gedney wrote:
>Does anyone have nay references to a dish that would now be called
>"cheese soup". I have been requested to find one for easter dinner.
From le Menagier de Paris by way of the Miscellany:
Green Broth of Eggs and Cheese
Menagier p. M-22
Take parsley and a little cheese and sage and a very small amount of
saffron, moistened bread, and mix with water left from cooking peas, or
stock, grind and strain: And have ground ginger mixed with wine, and put on
to boil; then add cheese and eggs poached in water, and let it be a bright
green. Item, some do not add bread, but instead of bread use bacon. [end of
original]
3 T parsley
1/2 oz cheese, grated
3 small leaves fresh sage
5 threads saffron
2 thin slices = 1.5 oz white bread (or bacon)
2 c pea stock or dilute chicken stock
1/8 t ginger
1 T white wine
1 3/4 oz cheese, grated
3 eggs
Soak bread in stock (either water left from cooking peas or 1/2 c canned
chicken broth + 1 1/2 c water). Grind parsley, sage, and saffron in a
mortar thoroughly; add 1/2 oz cheese and soaked bread and grind together.
Strain through a strainer; if necessary, put back in mortar what didn't go
through, grind again, and strain again. Mix wine and ginger, add to
mixture, and bring to a boil over moderate heat; be careful that it does
not stick to the bottom. Stir in the rest of the cheese; break eggs into
soup, and continue to simmer until eggs are poached.
Note: We have used both Gouda and cheddar cheese; both are good.
Elizabeth/Betty Cook
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 18:51:16 EDT
From: Seton1355 at aol.com
Subject: SC - Rec: zuppa alla parvese
From the **GOOD AND GARLICKY, THICK & HEARTY, SOUL-SATISFYING, MORE THAN
MINISTRONE ITALIAN SOUP COOKBOOK** by Joe Famularo
**POACHED EGGS PARMIGIANO IN BROTH**
**ZUPPA ALLA PAVESE**
Alla pavase means "in the style of Pavia", a city close to the Po river in
Lombardy region of Italy. This soup is called "alle pavese" because it was
created in Pavia in 1525 for Francis I, King of France who was fighting
Emperor Chas. V in the battle of Pavia. As Lombardy is the greatest producer
of milk in Italy, butter and cream are fresh and abundant. The soup
therefore is enriched by butter, not oil, and butter is used to brown the
bread.
4 T unsalted butter, melted
12 slices of Italian bread, each 1" thick
8 C beef broth or chicken broth
6 eggs, poached
6 T freshly grated parmigano cheese
salt and freshly ground black pepper to taste
Preheat oven to 350
Butter all the bread slices on both sides and place them on a baking sheet.
Toast the bread in the oven, turning once, until golden on both sides (about
15 min)
While the bread is toasting, bring the broth to a boil in a medium size soup
pot over medium heat. Cover and reduce heat to a slow and steady simmer.
Place 2 slices each of toasted bread into 6 wide soup bowls, arranging the
slices, side by side.
Place a poached egg over the bread slices.
Sprinkle with 1 T grated cheese.
Be sure the broth is really hot and ladel it over the eggs.
Add salt and pepper and serve immediately.
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 19:14:20 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Zanzarelli
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
I've been experimenting. Here is the first recipe (from the work of Maestro
Martino) for the Protectorate Feast I am preparing.
Zanzarelli is a rich, spicy egg drop soup with cheese in it. Margaret and I
both enjoyed it and I will probably make it again some cold Winter
afternoon. The process took about 10 minutes.
The broth was canned chicken broth. I did not add salt because it was
already present in the broth. I will be using broth of my preparation for
the feast, and will be adding salt. The spices are about 8 months old and
not as potent as I would like. I'll be using fresh spices for the feast.
Salting and spicing will be done to taste.
Bear
Zanzarelli
To make zanzarelli. To make ten platefuls, take eight eggs, half a libra of
grated cheese, and breadcrumbs, and mix these things together. Then take a
pot of meat broth colored yellow with saffron and put it on the fire; and
when it begins to boil put in this mixture and stir with a spoon. And when
it seems to have thickened, then remove the pot from the fire and serve up,
then sprinkle with spices.
Martino, Maestro, Libro de arte coquinaria
20 ounces of broth or stock
2 eggs
1 Tablespoon of grated or shredded romano or parmesan cheese
1 Tablespoon fine breadcrumbs
1/4 teaspoon each of black pepper, cinnamon and ginger, blended
Salt to taste
2 threads of saffron (if desired)
Whisk the eggs in a bowl
Add the cheese and the breadcrumbs and whisk until evenly dispersed and the
mixture thickens.
Put the broth in a saucepan and bring to a boil.
Add the saffron, remove from the heat and let stand for a few minutes to
permit the saffron to color the broth.
Return the broth to the heat and bring to a second boil.
Add the egg mixture and whisk until the ingredients are blended into the
broth. Remove from heat.
Add the spice blend 1/4 teaspoon at a time, whisking them into the broth,
until the desired taste is reached.
Makes 3 cups of soup.
The recipe produces a rich soup similar to egg drop soup.
Adding more cheese and breadcrumbs will thicken the soup.
Spices should be added by taste, as fresh spices may require less than
specified in the recipe.
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 10:24:44 -0700
From: Jim Davis <firedrake at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] My Next Feast
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
I used the Green Bruet with Cheese and Eggs 3 years ago at Caid 12th
night with great success. I used a vegetable-based broth concentrate
from Whole Foods market, so i could feed it to vegetarians, who will
sometimes eat eggs, I find. I had two soups: that and an onion-based
soup. I came closest to running out of the Green Bruet.
Jared
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:32:58 -0500
From: chawkswrth at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soup and eggs question
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
This is one of the two I found. the other I am looking at is at home (I'm at work) on that computer. :-)
But, this should give you an idea of what I m looking at.
From le Menagier de Paris by way of the Miscellany:
Green Broth of Eggs and Cheese
Menagier p. M-22
Take parsley and a little cheese and sage and a very small amount of
saffron, moistened bread, and mix with water left from cooking peas, or
stock, grind and strain: And have ground ginger mixed with wine, and put on
to boil; then add cheese and eggs poached in water, and let it be a bright
green. Item, some do not add bread, but instead of bread use bacon. [end of
original]
3 T parsley
1/2 oz cheese, grated
3 small leaves fresh sage
5 threads saffron
2 thin slices = 1.5 oz white bread (or bacon)
2 c pea stock or dilute chicken stock
1/8 t ginger
1 T white wine
1 3/4 oz cheese, grate
3 eggs
Soak bread in stock (either water left from cooking peas or 1/2 c canned
chicken broth + 1 1/2 c water). Grind parsley, sage, and saffron in a
mortar thoroughly; add 1/2 oz cheese and soaked bread and grind together.
Strain through a strainer; if necessary, put back in mortar what didn't go
through, grind again, and strain again. Mix wine and ginger, add to
mixture, and bring to a boil over moderate heat; be careful that it does
not stick to the bottom. Stir in the rest of the cheese; break eggs into
soup, and continue to simmer until eggs are poached.
Helen
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:40:23 +1200
From: Antonia Calvo <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience?
Volker Bach wrote:
<<< I was booked to cook a feast in December and I am looking again at the French tradition. One piece that looked interesting is the Vivendier's recipe #26 for soupe crottee. Basically, it's cheese and white bread boiled in water and wine. I can think of several interpretations here, from a cheese-flavoured (but otherwise fairly insipid) bread porridge to a mass of goo with soggy bread lumps in it. Has anyone here tried this recipe or a similar one, and if so, with what results? I was thinking along the lines of trying a relatively small amount of water and a long cooking period to cause the bread to fall apart, giving me a rich porridgelike dish that could be glooped over sops. >>>
First of all, I'd like to say yum, yum!
I'm not sure why you expect this to be gloopy, lumpy or porridgy. I
expect it to be about the consistancy of, well, thickish soup. I'm not
sure a long cooking time, thickness, and cheese are mutually compatible.
--
Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:12:15 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience?
On Sep 24, 2009, at 6:40 PM, Antonia Calvo wrote:
<<< First of all, I'd like to say yum, yum!
I'm not sure why you expect this to be gloopy, lumpy or porridgy. I
expect it to be about the consistancy of, well, thickish soup. >>>
Did you see English bread sauce in your mind for just a moment here,
too?
<<< I'm not sure a long cooking time, thickness, and cheese are
mutually compatible. >>>
I think I'm inclined to agree. I think the instruction to boil
everything together may be part of an overall desire to keep the dish
from breaking, but the bread will still give it a curdled appearance
(which Scully seems to claim is the probable source for the name).
Maybe try thinking of it as a sort of emulsified broth made rather
quickly: boil water and wine in a wide pan, throw in your bread and
cheese and stir the living bejeebus out of it until the cheese is
melted and the bread completely moistened and semi-disintegrated,
serve hot quickly...
A lot will depend on the cheese and the bread.
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 12:21:06 +1200
From: Antonia Calvo <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience?
Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
<<<
< I'm not sure why you expect this to be gloopy, lumpy or porridgy. I
expect it [soupe crottee] to be about the consistancy of, well,
thickish soup. >
Did you see English bread sauce in your mind for just a moment here,
too? >>>
It was lot more than a moment, actually.
<<<
< I'm not sure a long cooking time, thickness, and cheese are
mutually compatible. >
I think I'm inclined to agree. I think the instruction to boil
everything together may be part of an overall desire to keep the
dish from breaking, but the bread will still give it a curdled
appearance (which Scully seems to claim is the probable source for
the name). Maybe try thinking of it as a sort of emulsified broth
made rather quickly: boil water and wine in a wide pan, throw in your
bread and cheese and stir the living bejeebus out of it until the
cheese is melted and the bread completely moistened and
semi-disintegrated, serve hot quickly...
>>>
My thought was that if you added the bread and cheese a bit more slowly,
didn't put in excessively much stirred well, and didn't boil too hard,
you'd get something midway between a thinnish bread sauce and a thinnish
fondue. Would be great with some toast sippets and with some cinnamon,
pepper and sugar on top, or some well-fried onions.
--
Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:35:37 +0000 (GMT)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience?
--- Antonia Calvo <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz> schrieb am Fr, 25.9.2009:
Volker Bach wrote:
<<< I was booked to cook a feast in December and I am
looking again at the French tradition. One piece that looked
interesting is the Vivendier's recipe #26 for soupe
crottee. Basically, it's cheese and white bread boiled
in water and wine. I can think of several interpretations
here, from a cheese-flavoured (but otherwise fairly insipid)
bread porridge to a mass of goo with soggy bread lumps in
it. Has anyone here tried this recipe or a similar one, and
if so, with what results? I was thinking along the lines of
trying a relatively small amount of water and a long cooking
period to cause the bread to fall apart, giving me a rich
porridgelike dish that could be glooped over sops. >>>
First of all, I'd like to say yum, yum!
I'm not sure why you expect this to be gloopy, lumpy or
porridgy. I expect it to be about the consistancy of,
well, thickish soup. I'm not sure a long cooking time,
thickness, and cheese are mutually compatible.
===========
Well, I'm not terribly conversant with the ways of cheese cookery, so I'm going from my experience with bread porridge. When i say 'long', I mean in terms of a few minutes. The recipe says nothing about stirring, but I assume that that will be required to keep the cheese from sticking and burning.
Scully writes of speculation that 'crottee' is derived from the lumpy or curdled appearance of the dish, so I don't expect a smooth soup. I'm also a bit surprised that it uses water rather than broth.
What kind of cheese would you think would work? I'm starting out with the cheap stuff until I get my technique down, but I'm thinking a more intense flavour would be good. The recipe says 'fat' cheese.
Cheers
Giano
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 07:04:32 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience?
Guyere, if you can find it, would be yummy. Failing that, try Asiago (not sure if it's period but it'd be good) or even Swiss.
Kiri
On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 6:35 AM, Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de> wrote:
<<< What kind of cheese would you think would work? I'm starting out with the cheap stuff until I get my technique down, but I'm thinking a more intense flavour would be good. The recipe says 'fat' cheese.
Giano >>>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 09:13:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Raphaella DiContini <raphaellad at yahoo.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience?
I would humbly suggest trying fontina, as it's fairly fatty and tends to melt well. It has a good flavor, but isn't overpowering.
Raffaella
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 07:28:11 +1200
From: Antonia Calvo <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience?
Johnna Holloway wrote:
<<< I could see this as made up for 4-6 servings, but I am wondering about
the practicalities of it when made
up for a feast for 40 or 60 or 100 people. How's it going to work when
it's gallons of soup, pounds of bread, and pounds of cheese? >>>
I think you could do it for 40-60, but you would have to do it in more
than one pot.
<<< Will it hold up well if feast is delayed? >>>
A simple threat to use would be "People who do not come to table on
time will NOT get any cheese soup."
--
Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 07:31:07 +1200
From: Antonia Calvo <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience?
Susan Lin wrote:
<<< I agree - this would be difficult from what I have read to make in a large
quantity.
Could it be revised to resemble more of what in modern times is french onion
soup? Where the bread is placed on top of the broth and the cheese on top
of that? >>>
Probably, but bread floating in wina and water with cheese on to isn't
quite the point of the recipe. It also doesn't sound all that good.
<<< I've tried to make cheese soup and if you're not very careful you can get
much gloppyness as the cheese congeels and sticks together (and then burns
to the bottom of the pan). >>>
It helps if you go slowly-- if you add too much cheese at once, it
really likes to glom together rather than mix with the liquid--
especially if you add the cheese to liquid that isn't quite hot enough.
--
Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 11:27:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soupe Crottee (Vivendier) - any experience?
Hi Giano!
I have been looking and looking for my copy of the Vivendier. I seem to have misplaced it somewhere, so I cannot comment about what the actual recipe says, since you didn't provide it with your post, but how you describe this recipe reminds me a lot of K?sesuppe, which I have made and have made for a banquet of 150 people.
I had no problem with the cheese gloping or burning. The key to this I feel is to heat up your base, be it beef stock or wine then lower the flame and add the cheese until it melts. I used pre-grated Swiss cheese. Once it has melted, take the soup off the heat and immediately add your thickener [eggs and cream]. Then season. When you serve the soup, put croutons and rings of onion in and serve immediately. When the soup got the diners, the croutons had softened, but were still recognizable as croutons.
I hope that this will give you some help even if I cannot speak directly to the recipe you are working with.
Huette
<the end>