blue-cheese-msg - 9/23/07 Period blue cheeses. NOTE: See also the files: cheese-msg, cheese-lnks, fresh-cheeses-msg, whey-cheeses-msg, Charles-Chees-art, baked-cheese-msg, dairy-prod-msg, cheesemaking-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:02:06 -0500 From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt Subject: SC - Fromage Bleau >Ill have to find my reference books, but essentially, the varietys of >cheese relate to the local products, if memory serves-cheddar comes from >cheddar, meunster comes from meunster, parmigian from parma, you get the >drift. I do know that the blue mold in blue cheese is proprietary to >that one cavey section of france, and unless it comes from there, it is >only 'blue cheese'. > >margali Actually, the blue culture in Roquefort is made from moldy bread crumbs that the curds are sifted through prior to being packed in the vate. Aoife From: "Bethany Public Library" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Charlemagne's Cheese [long] Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 18:11:54 GMT In reference to the cheese best loved by Charlemagne, Tangwystle wrote: Besides all the excellent and educational evidence, another pointer in favor of the non-blued (non-cultured is a better word) cheese is that it is highly unlikely that cheese could be cultured (marbled or veined with blue mold) by this method. Soft cheese is, to a certain extent, self-sealing. Piercing with a skewer could very well introduce some bad organisms, but it is highly unlikely that the correct organisms (moldy bread crumbs) could be introduced in this manner. If it were successful, the results would be unlikely to be replicable and would produce a cheese whose culture resided in a single portion of the cheese. It would not be veined because the veins are produced by sifting moldy bread crumbs throughout the curds as the are placed int he mold. The curds are then pressed heavily over time to remove as much whey/whig as possible, a process which happens sketchily to produce softer cheeses which, by definition, have a higher whey content. In all, this skewering method seems like a highly unsound method for creating veined blue cheese. Aoife From: "Shayne Lynch" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Charlemagne's Cheese [long] Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:47:44 +1000 Bethany Public Library wrote: > Besides all the excellent and educational evidence, another pointer in favor > of the non-blued (non-cultured is a better word) cheese is that it is highly > unlikely that cheese could be cultured (marbled or veined with blue mold) > by this method. Soft cheese is, to a certain extent, self-sealing. > Piercing with a skewer could very well introduce some bad organisms, but it > is highly unlikely that the correct organisms (moldy bread crumbs) could be > introduced in this manner. If it were successful, the results would be > unlikely to be replicable and would produce a cheese whose culture resided > in a single portion of the cheese. It would not be veined because the veins > are produced by sifting moldy bread crumbs throughout the curds as the are > placed int he mold. The curds are then pressed heavily over time to remove > as much whey/whig as possible, a process which happens sketchily to produce > softer cheeses which, by definition, have a higher whey content. In all, > this skewering method seems like a highly unsound method for creating veined > blue cheese. It is a highly unlikely method, but not for the reasons supplied here. Blue vein cheese is about introducing Pennacilin Roquaforti from its current infection point to the cheese. This is not done by throwing mouldy bread crumbs though the curds! It is commonly done by scraping an old cheese mould into the new cheese milk, or by creating a suspension of the mould in water and pouring it down the skewer that you have used to pearce the cheese, or simply by leaving the cheese in the same room as the other blue cheeses. The major evidence that it is not a blue vein is the desciption of the cheese rind, which is not blue or green, but white. The blue pennacillin is much more active than the white and will (mostly) out-compete white on a cheese. In any event, it will always result in a mixed coloured cheese, which whilst being tasty and interesting to view, is not what was described. In fact, what was described in not necessarily a mouldy cheese! (Modern) France has a number of examples of Ash rolled cheeses, in which a soft or semi-hard cheese is rolled in wood ash and left to mature. Most of these cheeses have a grey or white appearance to the rind which is quite edible! [though some are quite dark] So we are still left unable to identify the cheese. Francois Henri Guyon Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 08:50:05 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" Subject: Re: SC - Charlemagne's Cheese [long] Cariadoc wrote: >When did Toussaint-Samat write? Is it clear whether her book is earlier or >later than the edition of the Larousse you are quoting? > >In any case, my impression is that the Larousse is quite unreliable on >matters historical. I agree, and I wasn´t quoting Larousse as a historical authority on Charlemagne´s cheese tastes. The point I wanted to make but forgot to add is that I´ve seen these cheese/Charlemage stories in several publications (which doesn´t make them any more true, of course), and these legends seem to be widely known in France, perhaps attributed to other cheeses as well. Toussaint-Samat´s book was published in 1987; my edition of Larousse in 1984 (the French original); English edition 1988, granted, but if this information was added by the English translators, they must have been very keen on it for some reason, because I found a third quote in the cheese section of Larousse: "It was not until the time of Charlemagne and the chronichles of Eginhard (770-840) that cheese was again mentioned in writing. The famous emperor discovered blue cheeses - the ancestors of Roquefort - while on a journey into the heart of his territory, and a stop at the priory of Rueil-en-Brie enabled him to sample the delights of Brie, which was given to him as a tithe." Which doesn´t prove a thing about brie or roquefort either way, of course. But these stories are well-known in France. Nanna Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:07:45 +0000 From: nickiandme at att.net Subject: [Sca-cooks] Pinto cheese? To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org (Group-SCACooks) I haven't been able to find a mention of this cheese anywhere. Could it perhaps be a mispronunciation/misspelling for a Catalan cheese named Picón? Picón, a close relative of Cabrales is made in the Cantabrian villages of Bejes and Tresviso. The cheeses are soft inside, some spreadably and others crumbly, and when cut reveal little galleries and caverns inhabited by the greenish-blue mold which gives them their characteristic strong big complex flavor. Kateryn de Develyn Barony of Coeur d'Ennui Kingdom of Calontir Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 15:18:17 -0800 (PST) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pinto cheese To: Cooks within the SCA --- ranvaig at columbus.rr.com wrote: > Orange cheese is artificially colored, usually with annatto which is > new world. Is there any evidence for bright orange cheese in period? > Safflower or other dyes could be used for this, but is there any > evidence that it was? According to the Oxford Companion to Food, annatto was being imported to Europe in the 17th century. It also states that annatto replaced marigolds and carrots as a food colorant in cheese, but didn't say anything about saffron. It also states that cows that eat fresh summer grass give milk that can be turned into yellow cheese. Cows that eat winter fodder give milk that makes white cheese. > The mixed cheese is made by mixing dyed and undyed curds. I believe > that cutting the curds in that manner is part of the cheddaring > process, which I don't believe is period. But I suppose Pinto cheese > could be speckled in some other way. I was thinking, just a guess on my part, that it could be spotted with molds. A French tomme cheese is dotted with red, grey an yellow molds. Sounds like a pinto to me. Huette Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 17:46:14 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] blue cheese? sampling spices? To: "Cooks within the SCA" > would a blue veined cheese be in period? > cailte Blue cheeses are probably period. There is some evidence of a Roquefort-like cheese in Charlemagne's time and both Roquefort and Gorgonzola appear to have been made since at least the 11th Century. Bear Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 20:16:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Kathleen Madsen Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: blue cheese? sampling spices? To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org There were blue cheeses in period but very few had the veining that you see in today's blues. The way that the veins are produced is by seeding the blue bacterium into the milk when it is still fluid and then after the cheese is made they are spiked with what looks remarkably like stainless steel knitting needles. This allows the oxygen to get into the cheese and the blue bacterium to grow. Most of what you found in period was an unspiked blue, so when you cut the cheese open it was a white or ivory colored paste. After about 15 minutes or so you would start to see a blush of blue beginning to develop on the cut surface. The longer you leave it exposed to the air the more extensive the blueing becomes on the surface, it only extends back into the paste about 1/4 inch. A good cheese to look up to get an idea of what it looks like is to google castelmagno cheese. Here's what artisanal's photo of a wedge looks like: http://65.217.230.240/prodinfo.asp?number=10136 Eibhlin Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 10:37:35 -0400 From: Suey Subject: [Sca-cooks] Blue Cheese To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Stefan wrote: > I thought blue cheese was from cow's milk. in his next posting he cites his file Charles-Chees-art which states that blue cheese is from ewe's milk. This surprises me because the never ending issue between Roquefort and Cabrales is who invented blue cheese. Either French pilgrims from Roquefort on the Way of St. James learned the art of making it from the Asturians or the Asturians learned it from them. Cabrales, queso cabraliego, Spain?s major blue-veined cheese is made with mixture of over 1/3 each of ewes and goats? milk and the remaining part is cow?s milk. It is a soft cheese spread on bread or beaten with cider or diced and eaten alone as a snack or dessert. This is mixed as each animal is milked. Formerly, it was put in the stomach of a recently slaughtered goat as the rennin in its stomach contained casein. Today special tubs are used which consist of double sides and are hallow in the middle. Hot water is run through them, which initiates the curdling process. The name for this cheese is derived from "cabra", goat and Cabrales, one of the localities where it is made. It is made at mountain farms in Asturias, mainly around Cabrales and Penamellera Alta. It is a strong-smelling cheese with a powerful flavor. The paste is an uneven dull white with yellow-brown patches and irregular blue-brown patches and irregular veining. The rind is grayish-red and crusty and was wrapped in sycamore leaves before the invention of plastic bags. As it must be cured in humid and ventilated conditions, it is taken to the natural caves facing north in limestone mountains of karst formation with fissures, sinkholes and underground drainage. The process takes about six months or more depending on the degree of maturity desired. Today in the mountains around Cabrales and Cordi?anes (Le?n) this tradition continues. Suey Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 15:37:55 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Blue Cheese To: "Cooks within the SCA" Possibly neither learned it from the other. Since cheese making seems to begin in the Late Neolithic, it is quite possible that the practice of producing blue cheese was invented somewhere else and introduced to France and Spain by a third party. If we have to decide between the two, by the time of the Camino de Santiago (earliest references in the 8th Century) blue cheeses were being produced in Southern France and that the records of the Camino de Santiago are roughly contemporaneous with Einhard's account of Charlemagne and the two yearly cartloads of (blue?) cheese from a monastery (believed to be Vabres). Also, Pliny comments upon the cheeses of southern France, but, to my knowledge, makes no mention of cheese in Spain. While the evidence supports Roquefort's claim, lack of evidence does not negate Cabrales claim. Blue cheese appears to predate recorded history in the region and there is some evidence that the Camino de Santiago was a pagan pilgrimage route before Christianity co-opted it, leaving the technology transfer possibility open. Given regional pride, the endless argument will continue. Bear ----- Original Message ----- This surprises me because the never ending issue between Roquefort and Cabrales is who invented blue cheese. Either French pilgrims from Roquefort on the Way of St. James learned the art of making it from the Asturians or the Asturians learned it from them. Suey Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:55:53 -0700 From: "Rikke D. Giles" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Blue Cheese To: Cooks within the SCA On 09/04/2007 01:37:55 PM, Terry Decker wrote: > Possibly neither learned it from the other. Since cheese making > seems to begin in the Late Neolithic, it is quite possible that the > practice of producing blue cheese was invented somewhere else and > introduced to France and Spain by a third party. Actually as a cheesemaker, I can say that blue cheese happens. Naturally. The hard part is keeping the cheese (especially that made from goats' milk, in my experience) from turning into a blue cheese. The blue mould will grow easily on the rind of any cheese but to get blue cheese as we know and love it, the mould must also grow throughout the cheese and for that it needs access to air. Any cheese that is not pressed hard, but that has cavities and cracks running through it is a candidate to turn blue. This includes aged curds which haven't been moulded at all. Of course, the conditions at the surface do create a difference, as does the temperature. So perhaps the question should be, who first tried that icky mouldy cheese that turned blue and decided it was good? And then who decided to try and create conditions that favor that blue for thier cheesemaking? I bet it happened in a lot of places as Bear suggested. Aelianora de Wintringham Barony of Dragon's Laire, An Tir mka Rikke Giles, FoxDog Farm, Kingston WA Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:54:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Kathleen Madsen Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Blue Cheese To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org > Possibly neither learned it from the other. Since cheese making seems to > begin in the Late Neolithic, it is quite possible that the practice of > producing blue cheese was invented somewhere else > and introduced to France and Spain by a third party. True, blue cheese did not originate in one place. Neither Roquefort or Cabrales were the first, merely the first two of note that probably made it out of their region. Now while their history may date back rather far the method of the cheesemaking itself has evolved over time. The main example being the blue veining. The veins in blue cheese are made by piercing the wheel of cheese to allow oxygen access to the interior. This has little to no evidence of actually being done in period, merely the annecdotal tale of a cheese being speared back together with a stick. There are chevres that are made in the traditional small log shape that use a skewer to give them stability and it is possible that some enterprising cheesemaker decided to try it on his wheels of cheese to give them strength while being handled - but there is no evidence to support it. These cheeses started as milk that picked up the wild spores and yeasts floating around in the area, innoculating the cheese as it was being made. The blue mold spore was present in the milk from the beginning of the make. As the cheese was aged it remained whole and the interior of the wheel was the color of the milk. As the wheel was cut open you would see a blue blush begin to develop on the cut surface rather than the distinctive veins that we see today. These blue mold growths will also naturally occur on the outer rinds of the cheeses as well so any time you cut into the cheese you'd be carrying those mold spores across the cut surface as well, spreading the spores even more. One lesson that I have learned is that once you start making and working with blue cheeses you have to make rather strong steps to prevent it from innoculating those that you *don't* want to be blue. Eibhlin Edited by Mark S. Harris blue-cheese-msg Page 8 of 8