gravy-msg - 7/3/11

Period gravy. These are not medieval, but Renaissance. Roux.

NOTE: See also these files: sauces-msg, garum-msg, murri-msg, mustard-msg, vinegar-msg, verjuice-msg, thickening-msg, spreads-msg.

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Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:53:45 -0800
From: "Crystal A. Isaac" <xtal at sigenetics.com>
Subject: SC - Welser's  gravy

I was looking through Valoise Armstrong's translation of Sabina Welser's
Cookbook (c. 1553 CE) and found the following recipe.

#9 To make a yellow sauce for game or birds
First put fat in a pan and fry some flour in it, then take some wine and
three times as much of broth and put it into the pan and add to it ginger
and pepper and color it yellow, then it is ready.

And also...
#11 To make a yellow peppersauce
Make it as follows: Brown good flour in fat, pour wine and meat broth in it,
and seasonings to it. When it is a fast day, however, then take pea broth
instead of meat broth.

I've had it in my head that "gravy" or roux -- you know, that flour cooked
in fat stuff Grandmamma makes at Thanksgiving -- is an out of period
technique, but I am not sure where I read/heard that.

My first pass at redaction brought up the following two results:

Test Batch One (suitable for vegetarians)
Melt 2 Tbl butter* in very small pan. Add 4 level Tbl of white flour,
whisking madly. <sucking noise> Big lump of stuff in pan. Reduce heat. Add
1/4 cup white wine, stir, stir, stir. Wine evaporates with shocking speed.
Reduce heat as far as possible (hurl curses at gas stove). Add about 9
tablespoons of hot reconstituted veggie bullion. Stir. Add 1/4 tesp ground
ginger, 1/8 tesp fresh ground pepper and 5 threads saffron (for yellow
color)**. Stir for a minute over very low heat to thicken.

*I used butter because Welser mentions using pea broth for a feast day
alternative, so I thought butter rather than drippings or lard might be
appropriate.
*I thought about using egg yolks for color and additional fat, but I was out
of eggs.

Results from Test Batch One
My personal food tester said, yum!
I liked this version, but I think it needed _way_ more ginger and pepper.
Would be good for an "unchallenging" and familiar dish at a feast. Would be
a good sauce for roasted vegetables.

By this time the chicken was done baking, so test batch two was begun.

Test Batch Two (NOT suitable for vegetarians, but closer to the original)
Take 3/4 cup pan drippings and place in medium sized pan. Whisk in 1/2 cup
flour. Cook till almost dry. Place 1/2 tesp ground ginger, 1/4 tesp fresh
ground pepper and 5 threads saffron in 1/2 cup white wine. Add wine to pan.
stir madly. As it dries, add 15 tablespoons* hot reconstituted veggie
bullion and keep stirring. I didn't let this batch reduce to the true
"gravy" consistency, so it was a little more sauce-like.

*I'm sorry about the inconvenient units of measurements, the ladle I was
using holds 3 Tbl, and I used 5 of them.

Results from Test Batch Two
My personal food tester said, yum, but I like the other one better.
This one definantly needed more spices, I think it may have needed salt as
well. (Test Batch One used salted butter so the lack was less obvious.)
Still, it was a good recipe, and we'll probably eat it again.

Questions:
Obviously, by adjusting the amounts of flour to liquids, you can make
something like Grandmamma's gravy, or something like a thin pesto. Does
anybody have another source that mentions recipe like this one?

Does anybody else remember a (good) authority that said roux-based sauce was
out of period?

Any help cheerfully accepted,
Crystal of the Westermark


Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 11:57:32 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Welser's  gravy

LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> xtal at sigenetics.com writes: 
> << I've had it in my head that "gravy" or roux -- you know, that flour cooked
>  in fat stuff Grandmamma makes at Thanksgiving -- is an out of period
>  technique, but I am not sure where I read/heard that. >>
> 
> I don't think it has been determined that it is out of period. It has merely
> been stressed that the use of this technique is not found in medieval
> manuscripts. Sabrina's book is well within the early modern cookery period
> but well outside the  period of medieval cuisine.
> 
> Ras

The deal is that prior to widespread examination of and research into
the Sabina Welserin cookbook of, I think, 1553, it was commonly believed
that the first documented use of roux in a European source occurred in
La Varenne's "Le Cuisinier Francais" (or something like that) dated at
roughly 1650. Not medieval, not period (yesyesyess, some of us use Digby
and he's even later, but what the hey...). Sabina Welserin's cookbook is
from 1553, some hundred years earlier, putting it arguably in the late
Middle Ages but definitely in the SCA period. 

Adamantius


Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:05:06 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - SC: Gravy Making

The earliest use of flour and fat to make a roux I know of is from Sabina
Welserin (1553), where there are several.  Here is one from Valois
Armstrong's translation:

"First, when you would make a black sauce, you should heat up a little fat
and brown a small spoonful of wheat flour in the fat and after that put good
wine into it and good cherry syrup, so that it becomes black, and sugar,
ginger, pepper, cloves and cinnamon, grapes, raisins and finely chopped
almonds. "

It sure sounds like a roux thickened sauce to me.

Bear


Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:39:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: cclark at vicon.net
Subject: Re: SC - SC: Gravy Making

Elysant wrote:
>This discussion makes me wonder how old the "roux" method actually is.  And 
>what are the oldest methods we know of that were used for thickening sauces 
>and gravies?

There are recipes for khabis (a sweetmeat) in al-Baghdadi that say to cook
and mash some gourds or carrots and then "Put sesame-oil into a dish and
boil : then add flour, and then the [mashed veggies]. Pour on syrup until
set : then remove."

Looks to me like this is a kind of roux. Though I don't recall seeing any
recipes where it's used to thicken a sauce.

Henry of Maldon/Alex Clark


Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 22:54:00 -0400
From: Daniel Myers <eduard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Roux in Sabina Welserin's cookbook?
To: SCA Cooks <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I was digging through Sabina Welserin's cookbook (Valoise Armstrong's
translation) looking for other stuff when I came across this recipe.

"5 How to cook a wild boar's head, also how to prepare a sauce for
it.  A wild boar's head should be boiled well in water and, when it
is done, laid on a grate and basted with wine, then it will be
thought to have been cooked in wine. Afterwards make a black or
yellow sauce with it. First, when you would make a black sauce, you
should heat up a little fat and brown a small spoonful of wheat flour
in the fat and after that put good wine into it and good cherry
syrup, so that it becomes black, and sugar, ginger, pepper, cloves
and cinnamon, grapes, raisins and finely chopped almonds. And taste
it, however it seems good to you, make it so. "

So what do you think?  Did Welserin have Varenne beat by about 100
years?

- Doc


Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 05:44:51 +0200
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roux in Sabina Welserin's cookbook?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Am Dienstag, 18. Juli 2006 06:57 schrieb Sue Clemenger:
> Dunno, since I'm not really familiar with Varenne (hope that  
> doesn't get me kicked out of the cool kids' kitchen).
> It does, however, sound completely yummy.  I wonder what kind of  
> cherries would have been used? It's almost cherry season here in
> Montana....mmmm..... --Maire

The original says 'kersseltz' - more like 'cherry sauce'. If this is indeed
the same as the near-ubiquitous cherry sauce of South German tradition, the
base is small sour cherries (Weichselkirschen).

YIS

Giano


Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 05:47:30 +0200
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roux in Sabina Welserin's cookbook?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Am Dienstag, 18. Juli 2006 04:54 schrieb Daniel Myers:
> I was digging through Sabina Welserin's cookbook (Valoise Armstrong's
> translation) looking for other stuff when I came across this recipe.
>
> "5 How to cook a wild boar's head, also how to prepare a sauce for
> it.  A wild boar's head should be boiled well in water and, when it
> is done, laid on a grate and basted with wine, then it will be
> thought to have been cooked in wine. Afterwards make a black or
> yellow sauce with it. First, when you would make a black sauce, you
> should heat up a little fat and brown a small spoonful of wheat flour
> in the fat and after that put good wine into it and good cherry
> syrup, so that it becomes black, and sugar, ginger, pepper, cloves
> and cinnamon, grapes, raisins and finely chopped almonds. And taste
> it, however it seems good to you, make it so. "
>
> So what do you think?  Did Welserin have Varenne beat by about 100
> years?

I'd say it's pretty clear. But in Germany, that kind of sauce is around
earlier than La Varenne anyway (Welserin is early, though, could well  
be the earliest). It's usually ascribed to French or Italian influence.

The original text says

...darnach soll man ain schwartz oder ain gelbs brielin dariber
machen, erstlich wan man das schwartz brielin will machen,
soll man ain wenig schmaltz lassenn hais? werden vnnd ain
leffellin voll schens mell jm schmaltz brennen vnnd darnach
ain g?ten wein daranthon vnnd ain g?ten kersseltz...

Giano


Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 07:32:17 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Russian food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Jul 23, 2006, at 2:12 AM, Pat Griffin wrote:
> Not all gravies are roux, Stefan.  A proper roux is simply flour browned in
> fat, then liquid added.  White sauces, for instance, are not roux, because
> the starch is not browned.  Other gravies can use thickening starches other
> than wheat flour.
>
> Lady Anne du Bosc
> Known as Mordonna The Cook
> mka Pat Griffin
> -----Original Message-----
>
> I thought gravy = roux, and vice-versa.

In the modern sense, at least, roux is generally wheat flour heated,
even if briefly, with an oil or fat. It doesn't even have to be
browned; you can have a "white" or "blonde" roux, and in classical
French cookery, a roux rarely is cooked to a shade darker than peanut
butter. However, there are fields of Creole and Cajun cookery where
the cook prides him or herself on the ability to caramelize a roux so
deeply it goes beyond simple brown and attains various mahogany and
russet shades mixed with the dark-roasted-coffee browns, all without
burning the flour (in theory, but then I think a lot of dark-roast
coffee is simply burnt, too, at least in the US). Generally this is
known as a "red" roux. Its thickening power is reduced as the roux
gets darker, but you can use plenty and still thicken, plus it adds a
distinctive flavor and color.

But flour + fat + heat = roux, flour + butter mixed to a simple paste
= beurre manie, and many gravies are thickened with things other than
roux (like the Southern US gravies with flour sprinkled directly in),
and sometimes they're just deglazed, slightly reduced pan juices.

Once you get past the almond-milk-and-breadcrumb  granees and grav?s
of the Middle Ages, there's a longish period where gravies (under
that name) seem to be largely ignored except in England as a by-
product of roast meats, either the pan drippings or the juice from
slicing them.

There's a rather viciously amusing little story in Brillat-Savarin's
"Physiology of Taste" in which he boasts of stopping with some fellow
travelers at an inn, only to discover that the innkeeper had
recently put the last chunk of mutton to roast at the fireplace for a
group of English travelers sitting nearby. The Englishmen were
hungry and declined to share their roast, so instead Brillat-Savarin
says he persuaded them to part with the gravy in the drip-pan so he
and his friends could have scrambled eggs with gravy. He then tells
us that he waited until no one was watching, strolled over to the
fireplace, and repeatedly stabbed the roasting mutton with his knife,
causing it to leak its precious bodily fluids and its purity of
essence (okay, guys, what am I quoting there?) into the drip pan,
leaving behind a dry husk in the shape of a leg of mutton. Which,
Savarin says, the English travelers, being English, never noticed.
He also says the scrambled eggs were excellent...

Adamantius


Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:10:12 -0400
From: "Barbara Benson" <voxeight at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roux
To: euriol at ptd.net, "Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Here is a Roux thickened soup from Rumpoldt (annotated with commentary):
<<R153a>>
164. Nim{b} d?erre Peltzschwammen/ lass sie vber Nacht in Wasser
weichen/ vnnd wenn du es wilt zusetzen/
so thu geschweisste Zwibeln darein/ mit eyngebrenntem Mehl/ geuss
Erbessbr?eh oder Wasser dar?eber/ vnd lass ein stundt oder zwo fein
gemach damit sieden/ w?ertz es ab mit Pfeffer/ Saffran vnd Jngwer/
machs saur/ dass mans kan essen/ vnd schaw versaltz es nicht/ so ist
es gut vnnd wolgeschmack.
Denn in B?ehmen ist es ein gemein essen von diesen Schwam{m}en. Vnd
man kan sie auch wol hacken wie ein Lungenmuss/ vnd man kans auch
zurichten mit Eyern vnnd Essig/ ist es gut vnnd wolgeschmack.

164. Take dried Peltz mushrooms/ leave them over Night in Water to
soak/and when You wish, set them on (the fire to cook them) then put
briefly fried (chopped) onions therein/ with toasted meal (i.e., flour)/
[Giano commented: "flour and butter, browned, for thickening the soup.
Rumpoldt is one of the first writers in German to list this
technique."] pour Pea broth or Water thereover/and leave one hour or
two to seethe nicely and gently (i.e, simmer)  therewith/ spice it up
with Pepper/ Saffron and Ginger/make sour / that one can eat/ and see
it is not over-salted/thus it is good and well-tasting. (translated by
Ahanita/Uratatim)
Then in Bohemia it is common to eat these Mushrooms. And one can also
chop them well such as for a Lung pudding/ and one can also prepare
with Eggs and Vinegar/ it is good and well-tasting.
[Giano commented that "this seems to be a soup recipe, but the thick
kind of soup we are used to today."]

And here is one from Welserin:

5 How to cook a wild boar's head, also how to prepare a sauce for it.

A wild boar's head should be boiled well in water and, when it is
done, laid on a grate and basted with wine, then it will be thought to
have been cooked in wine. Afterwards make a black or yellow sauce with
it. First, when you would make a black sauce, you should heat up a
little fat and brown a small spoonful of wheat flour in the fat and
after that put good wine into it and good cherry syrup, so that it
becomes black, and sugar, ginger, pepper, cloves and cinnamon, grapes,
raisins and finely chopped almonds. And taste it, however it seems
good to you, make it so.

Both of these are from the last half of the Sixteenth Century in
Germany. I have made the mushroom soup and it is very, very tasty. One
that surprised me at how good it was.

Hopefully others will be able to supply you with more examples, these
are just off the top of my head.
--
Serena da Riva


Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:39:54 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roux
To: euriol at ptd.net, Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

euriol wrote:
<<< So... my quest is to find out if this recipe does indeed exist. Has anyone
come across such a recipe in any of the pre 17th century recipe
collections? >>>

Here are some others:

This is an excerpt from *Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin*
(Germany, 16th century - V. Armstrong, trans.)
The original source can be found at David Friedman's website 
<http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Sabrina_Welserin.html>

11 To make a yellow peppersauce. Make it as follows: Brown good flour in 
fat, pour wine and meat broth in it, add seasonings to it. When it is a 
fast day, however, then take pea broth instead of meat broth

and this one:

This is an excerpt from *Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin*
(Germany, 16th century - V. Armstrong, trans.)
The original source can be found at David Friedman's website 
<http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Sabrina_Welserin.html>

9 To make a yellow sauce for game or birds. First put fat in a pan and 
fry some flour in it, then take some wine and three times as much of 
broth and put it into the pan and add to it ginger and pepper and color 
it yellow, then it is ready.

Johnnae


Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 22:31:59 -0400
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roux
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

This is an excerpt from *Das Kuchbuch der Sabina Welserin*
(Germany, 16th century - V. Armstrong, trans.)
The original source can be found at David Friedman's website <http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Sabrina_Welserin.html>

The *translation* is at David Friedman's website, the *original* is here:
http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/sawe.htm

Ranvaig


Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:47:31 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] emulsifications

On Oct 29, 2009, at 11:35 PM, Stefan li Rous wrote:
<<< Gravies are emulisified sauces, right? >>>

Not usually.

Gravies are usually thickened with something starchy (flour, starch,  
etc.)

Emulsified sauces are emulsions; mixtures of liquids that ordinarily  
don't want to mix, like oil and water, say, which, when mixed  
properly, thicken due to surface electrostatic charges on droplets.

Emulsions / emulsified sauces include thick vinaigrettes, some honey  
mustards with some oil beaten into them to lighten their texture and  
flavor, mayonnaise, Miracle Whip, Hollandaise Sauce, Bearnaise Sauce,  
Beurre Blanc, Beurre Rouge, and even properly melted chocolate.

<<< Is this Mayonnaise-like sauce a roux? Perhaps I should have named  
this file [gravy-msg] around roux(s) or emulsions. What *is* the plural of "roux"? >>>

Roux is a preparation, almost a verb. There is no plural, except as  
multiple examples of the technique. It's kind of like, what's the  
plural of photography? You can have more than one batch of roux, or  
more than one use, but roux is roux.

More simply, the plural of roux is roux.

Adamantius


Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2011 10:55:34 +0000 (GMT)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] roux based gravy-esque recipes

--- Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> schrieb am Sa, 1.1.2011:
Katherine said:
<<< Now, back to Ken Abala's Cooking In Europe
1250-1650.  I'm wondering if I
didn't see a roux based gravy-esque recipe in Wecker...>>>

Quite possible. I can't say about the German? but we do
have a few other examples. If I remember right, they are all
late in period and most likely past the "medieval"
period.  Of course if you've found some more, it would
be nice to get those down.
==========

There's also one in Sabina Welserin (#9). There must be earlier references elsewhere, though. I'd be surprised if this didn't come from outside Germany.

Giano


Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2011 08:46:02 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] roux based gravy-esque recipes

On Jan 1, 2011, at 5:55 AM, Volker Bach wrote:
<<< There's also one in Sabina Welserin (#9). There must be earlier references elsewhere, though. I'd be surprised if this didn't come from outside Germany.

Giano >>>

I remember being fairly surprised to see a milk-based garlic jance (yellow sauce) for poultry being thickened with flour in one of the fifteenth century English sources. Not roux, but a clear departure from the more common breadcrumb or almond-milk, rice flour or starch thickeners.

Adamantius


Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2011 11:06:45 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] roux based gravy-esque recipes

This is an excerpt from Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery-Books
(England, 1430)
The original source can be found at the University of Michigan's  
"Corpus of Middle English Prose and Verse"

Sauce gauncile. Take floure and cowe mylke, safroune wel y-grounde,  
garleke, peper, salt and put in-to a faire litel pot; and sethe it  
ouer the fire, and serue it forthe with the goos.

Johnnae

On Jan 1, 2011, at 8:46 AM, Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
<<< I remember being fairly surprised to see a milk-based garlic jance  
(yellow sauce) for poultry being thickened with flour in one of the  
fifteenth century English sources. Not roux, but a clear departure  
from the more common breadcrumb or almond-milk, rice flour or starch  
thickeners.

Adamantius >>>


Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2011 06:50:28 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roux was Re:  Knives

On Jan 2, 2011, at 1:19 AM, David Walddon wrote:
<<< How roux-like is it? 
Eduardo >>>

Multiple instances; I'd very roughly guess after glancing at Welser about a quarter of all thickened sauces, contain an instruction to heat some fat in a pan, brown a spoonful of flour, then add liquid and stir it together and boil until thickened. In some cases it's wine, in at least one wine and cherry syrup; in many cases broth is used. It kind of looks like a quick and dirty substitute for Taillevent's or Chiquart's slightly viscous pea broth/puree... you know, like it occupies a similar niche in the repertoire du cuisine.

Adamantius

<the end>
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