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fd-Persia-msg - 3/16/08

Food of medieval Persia. References.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,

Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous

Stefan at florilegium.org

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Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 23:57:52 +0100

From: TG <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>

Subject: Re: SC - Persian cooking

<< But, would they have used much rice at all in period? >>

Adam Olearius who travelled from Germany to Persia in 1635-39 in a

diplomatic mission reports about many dinners and banquets. Rice seems

to have played a very important role:

"Die Sch∏sseln waren alle mit auffgewalletem Rei˛ angef∏llet/ vnd oben

mit gesottenem Schafffleisch/ gebratenen H∏nern/ Eyerkuchen/ gekochten

Spinat ... beleget ... Neben solchen gedachten quotlibet Speisen/ wurden

auch absonderliche Sch∏sseln mit Rei˛ von mancherley Farben gesetzet"

(ed. 1656, p. 511).

Upshot: the dishes were filled with rice with the other stuff on top of

it; in addition there were separate dishes with rice in different

colors.

In his short chapter on Persian food and drink he says among other

things:

"Jhr principal Gericht/ so sie jhnen allezeit zuerst vortragen lassen/

ist schlechter auffgewalleter Rei˛/ welchen sie Plau nennen/ worauff in

gemein gekocht Schafffleisch lieget. Sie richten auch den Rei˛ auff

vnterschiedliche art zu/ vermischen jhn mit Corinthen/ Mandelen/ fîrben

jhn mit Safft von Granaten/ oder Kirschen/ Jtem mit Saffran/ ... Sie

belegen auch den Rei˛ mit gebratenen H∏nern vnd Fischen/ ... Sie essen

zwar den Rei˛ an statt des Brodts/ aber haben gleichwol auch

vnterschiedliche arten von Brodt/ so von Weitzen gebacken: ..." (p. 594f.)

Upshot: their main dish (_plau_) is based on rice; there are many other

ways to prepare rice ...; they use rice instead of bread, however, they

have also different kinds of bread ...

Other information includes: the use of wine, coffee, tea, fruits,

eggplants ("Noch eine vns Deutschen vnbekante Frucht haben sie/

Padintzan genandt/ ... Es wird nicht roh gegessen/ weil sie etwas

bitter/ aber gekocht/ vnd in Butter gebraten sol ein delicat essen

seyn"; p. 576 'In addition they have a fruit that is unknown in Germany

(!!) called Padintzan [=Badinjan, eggplant], the fruit is not eaten

uncooked, because it is somewhat bitter, rather the fruit is cooked and

fried in butter, and it is said to be a quite delicat dish') and so

forth...

There are earlier travelogues of this kind.

Th.

From: "Jim and Andi" <icbhod at home.com>

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] black sugar

Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 01:38:41 -0600

stefan at texas.net writes:

> They fed the unrefined sugar to horses? Or the sugar cane? Or really

> just what remained after crushing the sugar cane?

Nope, it says in _Food and Drinks in Mughal India_ "The jagre was available

in such abundance that it was given even to horses" pg 40, under "Sugar" and

the reference is from Manrique, 1629.

Madhavi

Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:15:57 -0700

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Rumi, was FW: Turkish Recipe

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Rumi's dates are given as 1207-1273, that's thirteenth century,

despite a reviewer's confusion.

He was actually Persian and wrote his poetry in Persian, primarily,

and Arabic, secondarily, not in Turkish, as far as i can tell. It's

hard to find his personal name, it may have been Muhammed. Jalal

al-Din, sometimes written Jalaladin or Jalaluddin, was his Sufi

title, and the name by which he was usually known.

His family lived in Balkh when he was young. That's now in

Afghanistan, but it was a major cultural center in the eastern

Persian Empire throughout SCA period. His father, Muhammad ibn

Hussain Khatibi, whose Sufi title was Baha' al-Din Walad, was a well

regarded Sufi at the time. The family moved westward in Persia to

Nishapour when Rumi was around 12, possibly due to pressure from

invaders, and eventually moved to Baghdad, where the primary spoken

and literary language was Arabic. The family went on the hajj

(pilgrimage to Mecca), then moved to the city of Konya in

south-central Anatolia, at the request of the ruler who wanted Rumi's

father as a teacher.

"Rumi" was Arabic for "Roman". Byzantium was called "Rum", meaning

"Rome", which the Byzantines considered themselves to be the

continuation of. Konya is in an area that had been part of the

Byzantine Empire. Konya had earlier been part of Byzantium, then had

been incorporated into the Seljuk Turkish Empire. By the time of

Rumi's life, it was an independent "kingdom", after the Seljuk Empire

came apart at the end of the 12th century, known as Rum. "Rumi" means

"of Rum" or "from Rum" and was added to his name

He became popularly known as Rumi in the 19th century.

As for being best-selling poet in America, this is the case in the

past decade or so. Here in NoCal, there are frequent nights of Rumi,

either readings or readings with music, and lectures by various

translators and re-workers of his writings, such as Coleman Barks or

Shahram Shiva, are packed to the rafters.

I haven't been able to find any information about a dietary manual,

although i have found a site that lists the foods he mentions in his

poems. I don't know if this is accurate, as far as Rumi's poetry

goes, but the food list is pretty accurate for the 9th-15th century

Arabic language recipes i have, some of which are of Persian origin.

http://www.superluminal.com/cookbook/essay_rumi_food.html

Urtatim, formerly Anahita

Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:59:51 -0700

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Question & Artemisian Iron Chef

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Jeanne P / Casamira <jeannecas at gmail.com>

> I need some good period sources for Chinese / Persian cooking that

> show which ingredients were used in period.

> Was Coconut milk ever used? Can it be documented?

> I know it's not part of Mediterianian, French or English medieval

> fare.

Well, i haven't run across Chinese Persian cooking :-)

But i have found information about Persian cooking in two books.

One is the inestimable "Medieval Arab Cookery". While none of the

cookbooks therein are Persian, Charles Perry has footnoted

extensively, pointing out the Persian linguistic and cultural roots

of many of the recipes. There are also quite a few essays by Perry

discussing specific styles or ingredients, and many of them touch on

Persian cooking. I find this book to be invaluable.

The other is a recently published Indian cookbook with Persian

content, The Ni'matnama Manuscript of the Sultans of Mandu: The

Sultan's Book of Delights, translated by Norah M. Titley.

RoutledgeCurzon, 2005.

So while neither is purely Persian, "Medieval Arab Cookery" shows the

confluence of Arab and Persian, and the Ni'matnama shows the

confluence of Persian and Indian.

I have heard of surviving Persian cookbooks, but to the best of my

understanding one or two exist, but have never been translated into

English.

Was coconut milk used? By whom? Obviously it was used in the tropical

regions where the coconut palm grows... but i don't recall any

European recipes using it, nor any Arab recipes. It does show up in

the Perso-Indian cookbook...

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:25:32 -0400

From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Question & Artemisian Iron Chef

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Jeanne P / Casamira <jeannecas at gmail.com>

> I need some good period sources for Chinese / Persian cooking that

> show which ingredients were used in period.

> Was Coconut milk ever used? Can it be documented?

> I know it's not part of Mediterianian, French or English medieval

> fare.

You might also look at "A Soup for the Khan", which is mostly Mongol

recipes, but some have Persian influences. It's frightfully expensive,

but you may be able to find it in a larger library...or get it on

inter-Library loan.

Kiri

Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:47:00 -0600

From: "caointiarn" <caointiarn1 at juno.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Persian cooking texts

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>,

Baroness Casamira asked:

>I need some good period sources for Chinese / Persian cooking that show

which ingredients were used in period.<

My first guess would be to check with Jaelle's bibliography (it's

in the Flori-thingy) for texts.

I found a couple with Devra (?) -- and one I bought is _The Legendary

Cuisine of Persia_ by Margaret Shaida. I haven't had a chance to read it

yet, as it was intended for a gift.

Caointiarn

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 13:22:47 -0700

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:

> I was recently told about some controversy in my Kingdom in which a

> Laurel recognized for her work in Persian studies announced in

> connection with some local cook's modern Middle Eastern cooking that

> modern ME cooking is fine for SCA use since Persian cooking has not

> changed materially for 1000 years, and her correspondents in modern

> Iran confirm this.

Aargh! Aargh! Aargh! (sound of hair being torn out).

I'm on quite a few Near and Middle Eastern oriented SCA e-lists. This

was the sort of thing i heard about garb back in the dark ages when i

joined up (7 years ago :-) People complained that it was too

difficult and too expensive to make period Near/Middle Eastern garb.

And besides, things hadn't changed (insert Carl Sagan voice) in

*thousands* of years (end Carl Sagan voice).

(and i found his intonation especially annoying when i was in labor

in the maternity ward and he was on TV. I switched to the World

Series. Much better)

> The guy who told me about all this is another Laurel who has

> extensively studied the Persian culture in our period, but hasn't

> done much of a study on food, and merely suspected that this claim

> was utter sheepdip, without any hard evidence of same.

Wow! Someone else who says "sheepdip" instead of a shorter word!

Well, this guy is absolutely correct. Yeah, yeah, i don't know of an

SCA period Persian cookbook, but looking through "period" Andalusi,

Egyptian, 'Abbasid, and Ottoman cookbooks and comparing the cuisine

to modern recipes, it's easy to see that are significant differences.

How'd this female get a Laurel?!? (don't answer. I know, i'm not

displaying "peer like qualities")

> I got out a modern Persian cookbook and showed him an approximate

> percentage of dishes prominently featuring ingredients the Persians

> almost certainly could not have had access to 1000 years ago. I

> pointed out that I couldn't be sure of the extent to which cooking

> methods and styles had changed, but that the likelihood was that some

> ancient, traditional methods had survived, and some had probably

> changed per the same cultural and social forces that caused available

> foodstuffs to change. Looking at Kitab al-Tabikh, which may not be

> completely identifiable with the Persian cookery of its time, but

> which appears to be Persian-influenced, at least, we find some pretty

> significant differences in techniques and styles.

Oh, yeah. So many of the dishes have Persian derived names and are

supposedly based on Persian recipes. This is also true of that

handful of 15th C. Ottoman recipes recently published - lots of

Persian influence.

Related, but tangential... when Ibn Battuta visited with Turkic

people in the 14th century, they eschewed sweet dishes. By the 16th

century, with the rise to power of the Ottomans, the Turks in

Istanbul had developed an enormous sweet tooth. And that's in less

than 200 years!

According to Yerasimos who translated those 15th c. Ottoman recipes,

the Ottomans didn't adopt tomatoes and bell peppers until the 18th

century, and yet they are such an integral part of modern Turkish

cuisine.

So how could Persian cuisine stay the same until the 21st century,

especially when there were in the midst of so many trade routes and

and so many wars?

-----

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 09:17:02 -0700

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: [Sca-cooks] SCA-period Persian Cookbooks

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I've been corresponding with Charles Perry, translator of the 13th C.

Andalusian Cookbook and the NEW translation of the 13th C. Kitab

al-Tabikh by al-Baghdadi (which arrived yesterday, whoo-hoo!). He has

been very open and helpful.

Among other things, i asked him about Persian cookbooks, because i

keep reading about one or two, but the authors never mention names,

locations, or any details.

He sent me the following:

> There are two manuscripts from the Safaid period

> "Karnameh dar Bab-e Tebakhi ve-Son'at-e An"

> and

> "Maddetol-Hayat -- Resale dar 'Elm-e Tebakhi."

> They were edited and published together by Iraj Afshar in AH 1360

> (1941)

Afshar was a well regarded scholar of Persian history.

Perry also suggested that there was a later edition, but i don't know

details.

I'm going to try to track this down. Ooo, ooo, another project. I'm

hoping that my friend 'A'isha, who has studied a bit of Persian, will

help. But there's no reason that someone else shouldn't also.

My understanding it that the books are rather different. The earlier

one is recipes with weights and measures. The later one is a bid more

florid, but gives good info, if less specific and concise.

If anyone finds them before i do, please let me know.

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita