fd-Normans-msg - 2/24/08 Food of the Normans. References. NOTE: See also the files: fd-Anglo-Saxn-msg, fd-Norse-msg, Normans-msg, names-AN-art, fd-France-msg, Norse-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 08:44:32 -0400 From: Phil & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - 11th/12th North Western European Reciepes Maynard, Steven wrote: > I'm new to this list and period cooking so please forgive > my naievity. I'm interested in getting some reciepes for post Norman > conquest upto the end of Henry I of Englands reign. I'd prefer receipes from > England during this period. But anything that could have been used will be > fine. > > William Castille=-) The Deal As I See It is that there is some poetry from the 12th century, by people like Alexander Neckham, describing dishes like frumenty and venison, which suggests that the eating habits of Henry I and his crowd might be rather similar in many respects to what was eaten by early 14th century English nobility, for which recipes survive. Hieatt and Butler's "Curye On Inglysch" includes manuscript sources roughly dated at 1325 or so, if I'm not mistaken. There is also, floating around somewhere, an early Anglo-Norman cookery manuscript in French (13th century???), which someone else might be able to cite publication info; I don't have a copy myself. Then, of course, there is Rudolph Grewe's translation of an early 13th-century Danish manuscript, published as "An Early XIII Century Northern-European Cookbook", except there is reason to believe the recipes contained in it originated in the Mediterranean Basin, so it is probably more Provencale than Danish. Adamantius Østgardr, East Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:48:25 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Feasting: A request Corwyn announced he is doing a feast in the spring, and asked: >This being said, I need a clue or two of where to look. Most, if not all of my >sources are secondary, those that aren't are from the 14th through the 18th >centuries. I have an Apicius too... The feast itself is in 12th century >England. Aside from fiddling with some recipies from Apicius, any suggestions? From _De nominibus utenslium_ by Alexander Neckam (1157-1217), quoted (and translated from the Latin) in _Daily Living in the Twelfth Century_ by Urban Tigner Holmes, Jr., University of Wisconsin Press, 1952, p. 88: "A roast of pork is prepared diligently on a grid, frequently basted, and laid on the grid just as the hot coals cease to smoke. Let condiments be avoided other than pure salt or a simple garlic sauce. It does not hurt to sprinkle a cut-up capon with pepper. A domestic fowl may be quite tender, having been turned on a long spit, but it needs a strong garlic sauce, diluted with wine or verjuice. Flavor a hen which has been cleaned and cut up into pieces, with cumin, if it is well boiled; but if it has been roasted, let it be treated with frequent drippings of fat, nor does it refuse garlic sauce; it will be most tasty with simple sauce. Let fish that have been cleaned be cooked in a mixture of wine and water; afterwards they should be taken with green "savory" which is made from sage, parsley, dittany, thyme, costus, garlic, and pepper; do not omit salt." This quote is right from when and where you want, and the set of dishes described sounds a lot like the cuisine you see in the 14th-15th c. English and French cookbooks. It doesn't particularly sound like Apicius, which is several centuries earlier. I would go with dishes from the 14th-15th c. cuisine for this feast. Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook (two or three weeks behind on the list) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:14:21 -0600 From: david friedman Subject: SC - 12th c cookery and kitchen (was: Coronation feast) At 3:48 PM +0000 1/13/00, Christina Nevin wrote: > Adamantius wrote: > Appropriate dishes for the period (if we can believe Alexander Neckham) > might include... >I like the sound of the hens in cumin and the rissoles. What type of rice >dishes? Could you please post the recipes? Here is what Neckham wrote (quoted and translated in _Daily Life in the 12th Century_); he doesn't give recipes, unfortunately. "A roast of pork is prepared diligently on a grid, frequently basted, and laid on the grid just as the hot coals cease to smoke. Let condiments be avoided other than pure salt or a simple garlic sauce. It does not hurt to sprinkle a cut-up capon with pepper. A domestic fowl may be quite tender, having been turned on a long spit, but it needs a strong garlic sauce, diluted with wine or verjuice. Flavor a hen which has been cleaned and cut up into pieces, with cumin, if it is well boiled; but if it has been roasted, let it be treated with frequent drippings of fat, nor does it refuse garlic sauce; it will be most tasty with simple sauce. Let fish that have been cleaned be cooked in a mixture of wine and water; afterwards they should be taken with green "savory" which is made from sage, parsley, dittany, thyme, costus, garlic, and pepper; do not omit salt. "In a kitchen there should be a small table on which cabbage may be minced, and also lentils, peas, shelled beans, beans in the pod, millet, onions, and other vegetables of the kind that can be cut up. There should be also pots, tripods, a mortar, a hatchet, a pestle, a stirring stick, a hook, a cauldron, a bronze vessel, a small pan, a baking pan, a meathook, a griddle, small pitchers, a trencher, a bowl, a platter, a pickling vat, and knives for cleaning fish. In a vivarium let fish be kept, in which they can be caught by net, fork, spear, or light hook, or with a basket. The chief cook should have a cupboard in the kitchen where he may store away aromatic spices, and bread flour sifted through a sieve-and used also for feeding small fish-may be hidden away there. Let there be also a cleaning place where the entrails and feathers of ducks and other domestic fowl can be removed and the birds cleaned. Likewise there should be a large spoon for removing foam and skimming. Also there should be hot water for scalding fowl. "Have a pepper mill and a hand mill. Small fish for cooking should be put into a pickling mixture, that is, water mixed with salt... To be sure, pickling is not for all fish, for these are of different kinds: mullets, soles, sea eels, lampreys, mackerel, turbot, sperlings, gudgeons, sea bream, young tunnies, cod, plaice, stargazers[?], anglers, herring, lobsters fried in half an egg, bougues, sea mullets, and oysters. There should also be a garde-robe pit through which the filth of the kitchen may be evacuated. In the pantry let there be shaggy towels, tablecloth, and an ordinary hand towel which shall hang from a pole to avoid mice. Knives should be kept in the pantry, an engraved saucedish, a saltceller, a cheese container, a candelabra, a lantern, a candlestick, and baskets. In the cellar or storeroom should be casks, tuns, wineskins, cups, cup cases, spoons, ewers, basins, baskets, pure wine, cider, beer, unfermented wine, mixed wine, claret, nectar, mead... piment, pear wine, red wine, wine from Auvergne, clove-spiced wine for gluttons whose thirst is unquenchable..." From De nominibus utenslium by Alexander Neckam (1157-1217), quoted (and translated from the Latin) in Daily Living in the Twelfth Century by Urban Tigner Holmes, Jr., University of Wisconsin Press, 1952, p. 88 (first paragraph quoted here) and pp.93-94 (second and third paragraphs). Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 21:38:18 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Chemical heating? CBlackwill at aol.com wrote: > Any chance you could forward me the location of these Anglo-Norman cookery > Manuscripts? Constance B. Hieatt and Robin F. Jones "Two Anglo-Norman Culinary Collections Edited from British Library Manuscripts Additional 32085 and Royal 12.C.xii ", published in Speculum v. 61 October 1986 pp 859-882 If you have access to a decent library they may have subscribed to the JSTOR network, which will allow you access to a lot of kewl stuff, including anything from Speculum from the 1930's to the present, such as various medieval cookery sources too small to go into an individually published volume. Not bad for the cost of the printing, which is roughly the same as photocopying. Adamantius Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:26:43 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Re: Kuskenole, a question RuddR at aol.com wrote: > What is the cressee recipe? What medieval recipe collection is it in? Is > there really an illustration that goes with it? Where can I find this > source? I'd be interested in seeing this material. Constance Hieatt and Robin Jones, "Two Anglo-Norman Culinary Collections Edited from British Library Manuscripts Additional 32085 and Royal 12.C.xii", Speculum v. 61, October 1986, pp 859-882. The original recipes are in 13th-century French, with an English translation by Hieatt and Jones. Here's what it sez for cressee, translated from Add. 32085 : "5. Cressee [crisscross of noodles]. Here is another dish, which is called cresee.Take best white flour and eggs, and make pasta dough, and in the pasta dough put fine, choice ginger and sugar. Take half of the pastry, (which is or should be) colored with saffron, and half (which is or should be) white, and roll it out on a table to the thickness of your finger; then cut it into strips, then cut it into strips the size of a piece of lath; stretch it out on a table as illustrated [see diagram, one color is presumably to be crossed over the other]; then boil in water; then take a slotted spoon and remove the cressees from the water; then arrange them on, and cover them with, grated cheese, add butter or oil, and serve." The diagram is a rectangular grid 4 squares high by eight wide. > Rudd Rayfield Adamantius Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 21:11:31 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: SC - Fascinating etymological study / too much free time??? I found myself sitting in a library yesterday with a reprint of Kelham's 18th-century "Dictionary of the Norman or Old French Language", as well as various other old French dictionaries _and_ dictionaries of Old French, some reading into modern French, one in English, and one in German. So there I am, musing on the fact that I've seen the dish named, variously, faulx grenon, faux grenon, faus guernon, etc., and while I've seen several such recipes translated into English, I've never seen anybody try to translate the dish's _name_. The dish is a thick pottage of minced, fried chicken gizzards and livers and milk, thickened with egg yolks, sometimes with toasted bread, and sometimes with chestnuts either instead of, or in addition to, the toast. So I begin messing with the dictionaries (not that I wasn't already doing so), fairly certain on some intuitive level that the faus part is a reference to faux, or false. False what? I tried looking up the various permutations, and what I came up with (and I could kick myself for not being conveniently prepared to copy down the entire reference, but I was about to pack up and leave) was that, as odd as it sounds, a word very similar to grenon or guernon, possibly gueron, translates as "moustache", possibly in the same extended-logic way Taillemaslee becomes La Barbe Robert, or Robert's Beard Sauce... . "Preposterous," says I to myself, "Why would anybody name the dish 'false moustache'?" And then I began thinking of the mechanics of drinking a bowl of thick pottage made from finely minced chicken livers and gizzards; a thick, somewhat grainy brown pottage. Now, I may have been influenced by all the "Got Milk?" ads I saw on the way to the library, but it began to assume a peculiar sense of logic... Talk me out of it, somebody! Adamantius Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 06:45:57 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Norman foodhistory/cookbook Christina Nevin wrote: > Has anyone seen this book? Is it any good? > > Claude Guermont The Norman Table > U. S. A.: Charles Scribner, 1985 History and recipes of Normandy before and > after the Norman conquest . Um, yes, actually. I love mine. It's a _wonderful_ book, written by the guy who at one time (and perhaps still does) ran a functioning student-run restaurant on the campus of the Culinary Institute of America in Hyde Park, New York. However, it should be noted that this is the Norman cuisine of people who eat lobster and pike sausage with cream, pork with prunes and brandy, and Tripes a la mode du Caen, washed down with cider and followed by Calvados drunk out of the empty but still-warm coffee cup, and not those mean guys who shot good King Harold in the eye and overtaxed the Saxons and got their bottoms kicked by Robin Hood and Wildfrid of Ivanhoe. Any history discussed in the book is more likely to be stuff like who Mere Poulard actually was, and how her mysterious, much-disputed late-nineteenth-century omelette was actually made, rather than having anything much to do with, say, the food in the Two Anglo-Norman Cookery Manuscripts. I'm not aware, thinking back, of any references at all (or hard data) to the cuisine of medieval Normandy (unless it is an account of the questionable legend about Tripes a la Mode du Caen, and how the different ingredients were thrown together after Vikings took everything else, or the old saw about Charlemagne and the cheese rind). Besides, I'm a little suspicious of where the tag line "before and after the Norman conquest" is supposed to be taking us, since the conquest was of England, not Normandy. It's kind of like saying, "history and recipes of the USA both before _and after_ the Korean War". "Yeah... So???" However, for those whose interest in food and food history doesn't get switched off in January of 1601, it is a wonderful book. Adamantius Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:05:39 -0800 (PST) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: Re: SC - Norman foodhistory/cookbook - --- Christina Nevin wrote: > Has anyone seen this book? Is it any good? > > Claude Guermont The Norman Table > U. S. A.: Charles Scribner, 1985 History and recipes > of Normandy before and > after the Norman conquest . > > Ciao > Lucrezia This is what I pulled off of RLIN. This appears to me to be a modern cook book, but I haven't seen the book. I am going by how it was catalogued. Guermont, Claude. The Norman table : the traditional cooking of Normandy / Claude Guermont with Paul Frumkin. New York : Scribner, c1985. 297 p. ISBN 0684183196 : $19.95 Subjects: Cookery, French--Normandy style. Normandy (France--)Social life and customs. This is in quite a few public libraries and only a handful of university libraries, which leads me to suspect that it means it is a popular modern cookbook. Huette Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 08:26:54 -0500 (CDT) From: "Sydney Walker Freedman" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] help for 1250 French/Greek To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Sydney commented: > <<< It might also be helpful to look at the two early Anglo-Norman sources > that we have. They were published in an article in Speculum in 1986. I > can look up the specifics if you like. It's on JSTOR, by the way. >>> > > Having an Anglo-Norman persona I'd like to hear more details about > these two Anglo-Norman sources you mention. However, I'm not too sure > how much commonality there would be between Anglo-Norman cuisine in > Cyprus and in York Shire, England. The author discusses the similarities and differences between the Anglo-Norman recipes and French recipes, so the sources may still be helpsul. The article is "Two Anglo-Norman Culinary Collections" by Constance B. Heiatt and Robin F. Jones, published in the October 1986 issue of Speculum, the Medieval Institutes scholarly journal. > JSTOR? Huh? It's a scholarly journal archive. If you go to a public or university library, you will most likely be able to access it. Go to http://www.jstor.com. Let me know if you have any more questions. > Stefan Pax Christi, Lady Cecilia de Cambrige (also an Anglo-Norman) Edited by Mark S. Harris fd-Normans-msg Page 7 of 7