fd-Hungary-msg - 10/26/01 Food of period Hungary. Magyar food. NOTE: See also the files: Hungary-msg, fd-Byzantine-msg, fd-Turkey-msg, Middle-East-msg, Byzantine-msg, peppers-msg, Gypsies-msg, fd-Poland-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:10:56 EDT From: Varju at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - period Hungarian dishes There are no commonly available sources of period Hungarian recipies. there are two manuscripts at the Sechenyi Library in Budapest that are believed to have been written before 1600 and there is a manuscript in Germany that has has four recipies from the last 1400s. _The Cuisine of Hungary_ by George Lang discusses these few sources and gives a few recipies but not anything substantial. I have worked out one of those recipies, Savanyu Vetrece. Noemi Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 02:50:22 EDT From: Varju at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - period Hungarian dishes keith.78 at osu.edu writes: << Could you please give more information on these two books. I can perhaps get them through interlibrary loan and ask the german dept for help translating. >> Hmmm. . .which two? I mentioned three, only one of which may be in German. Lang never gives the titles for these books in the text. He does state that the earliest, the codex from the 1400's is in the Munich State Library, but that may not be true at this time. Duke Cariadoc may have more information on the two cookbooks in the Szechenyi Library. My really fuzzy recollection is that those may be in Hungarian. . . Noemi Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:51:05 +0100 From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de> Subject: SC - period Hungarian dishes <<< I am assembling an event bid with a Hungarian theme. Does anyone know of sources for period Hungarian dishes? >>> THere are several 'hungarian' dishes in German cookbooks. They (or some of them) are mentioned by Wiswe in his 'Kulturgeschichte der Kochkunst' on p. 108. On this page you also find a small facsimile of a manuscript in Munich from 1548; could be the one, someone mentioned earlier (it is the 'Codex germanicus monacensis 349, here fol. 118r). Maybe I can look for some texts later (maybe not). THen there is a 14th century recipe in the Italian 'Libro di cucina' ed. by Frati (and later by Faccioli): Torta ungaresca per XII persone. (Frati p. 59; also mentioned by Wiswe) Then, there are many hungarian recipes in Rumpolt! Then, there is a recipe called 'Alia torta pro Ungaris et Bohemis' in the 'Registre de Cuisine' de Jean de Bockenheim, edited by Laurioux (the exact titles of all these books are in my biblioagraphy at http://www.uni-giessen.de/~g909/cookbib.htm). Thomas Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 23:41:39 +0100 From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de> Subject: SC - Re: period Hungarian dishes Here is a somewhat more detailed list of some Hungarian dishes in some non-hungarian cookbooks: 14th century/ 15th century - -- Frati p. 59 = Faccioli I, 97-98 (Torta ungaresca per XII persone) - -- Jean de Bockenheim, Registrum coquinae, c. 1430-50, ed. Laurioux 1988, Nr. 36 (Alia basteda pro magnatis; the 'magnates' were the aristocrats in Poland and Hungary), Nr. 37 (Alia torta pro Ungaris et Bohemis) 16th century - -- Philipina Welser (1545) 141.17 (ain hecht ein machen auf vngeresch) - -- Sabina Welser (1553) S.24.12 & Nr. 191 (hecht jn ainer vngerischen brie) - -- Heidelberg: Codex palatinus germanicus 293, fol. 26r (Wiswe 108 & note; not seen myself). - -- Heidelberg: Codex palatinus germanicus 555, fol. 111r (Wiswe 108 & note; not seen myself). - -- Mnchen: Codex germanicus monacensis 349 (1548) fol. 118r ss. (Vermerk ein guede kunst von vngrischen oder pechamyschen essen zu kochen; Wiswe 108 & note; according to Wiswe "wenig ergiebig"; seen one page in Wiswe's book, but not yet deciphered). - -- Kleines Klosterkochbuch (ed. Otto, Leipzig 1856; not a very reliable source; the text is somewhat modernized, the manuscript was not found any more in later times): p. 11 (Ein Hecht auf hungarisch zu sieden), p. 31 (Wilde oder zahme Gnse, Enten und Kapphanen auf hungarisch anzurichten), p. 34 (Junge Hhner auf hungrisch), p. 65 (Eine Gallart von jungen Ferkeln auf hungarisch zu bereiten), p. 67 (Ein Rinderbraten auf Hungarisch), p. 113 (Sauerkraut auf hungarisch anzurichten). - -- Anna Wecker (1598), p. 224f. (Ein Koppen vnd andere Hnerqualen oder Schlegel/ Klbern oder Schepsen auff Vngrisch zu bereiten). - -- Rumpolt, Ein new Kochbuch, 1581 hungarian recipes or characteristics mentioned on fol. 18r, 33v, 38r, 40r, 42r, 49v, 53r, 81r, 82v, 85v, 97v, 110r, 106r etc. (according to Wiswe 108; you might also search for vnger" in our online-passages from Rumpolt, to see some of the mentioned recipes) - -- Meisbugo, Libro novo, 1557 fol. 17r (Trutte in vino alla Ongaresca; only mentioned; no recipe? or 105v??) fol. 107r (A fare potaccio di pesce, all' Ongaresca) 17th century - -- Grazer Kochbuch 1686, 97.1 (Ungarisch berschlagenes Pastetel) - -- Wolfenbttel: Codex Guelferbytanus 51 Aug. 4, fol. 218v; 223r (Wiswe 108 & note; not seen myself) - -- Coler (1665) p. 50 & 57 (Wiswe 108 & notes; not seen myself) 18th century - -- Riedlinger Kochbuch 1710, 33.9 // 52.14 // 54.11 // 56.11 // 231.13 (ein guet vngerische Suppen vber einen Hchten/ einen Karpffen/ ein Hienel) - -- Riedlinger Kochbuch 1710, 73.9 (ungerischer Kopaun) **** I can't key in and translate all these recipes at present. But here is the recipe from the oldest text, the 'libro per cuoco' (Ms. 15th century, text 14th century): "CXIII Torta ungaresca per xii persone. Toy uno capone ben grasso e toy uno lombolo de porco grande e do cepole grosse e meza libra de specie dolze e fine e toy tre libre d'onto fresco che non sia salato e toy tanta farina che sia tre pani, la megliore, che tu poy avere; e toy lo capone e 'l lombolo del porco e fane morselletti e de le do cepole fane morselletti e meti queste cosse a sofriger [soflriger_Ed.] in lo songiazo fresco in quantit; e de le dite dolze e zafarano assay e un poco de sale; e quando ben sofrito mitige un bichiero d'aqua ch'el se cocha senza compimento, e toli la farina e destruta con aqua fresca insalata con un pocho de salina e menala molto forte, e quando ben menato, toy uno testo de ramo ben stagnato e onzilo ben de questo lardo fresco che tu ay. Toy la pasta e menala e sotiliata con una mescola e fala sotille, e siate due a traer sotille a foglio con lardo e fane infina a XVIII fogli, et postea toy questo batuto de capon e de altre cosse fane uno solo suso questa met, e poni tante altre foglie sopra questo solo ben inaffiato ziaschuno per si di lardo e fa una crosta de sopra per vardia. Questa torta vole poco foco sotto e ben foco di sopra, e poy fare per piu, o per men, toiando le cosse a questa mesura." (I hope the special characters go through.) If you know of other recipes of this kind, please, let me know. Thomas Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 00:27:41 -0400 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: Re: SC - Re: period Hungarian dishes And it came to pass on 20 Oct 99,, that Thomas Gloning wrote: > Here is a somewhat more detailed list of some Hungarian dishes in some > non-hungarian cookbooks: [snip] > If you know of other recipes of this kind, please, let me know. There is one recipe in _Libro Del Arte De Cozina_, Diego Granado, Madrid, 1599. "Para hazer escudilla de leche, vulgarmente llamada Vngaresca" -- "To make a dish of milk, commonly called Hungarian". It's basically a custard, made with milk, eggs, butter, and sugar, and optionally flavored with saffron and cinnamon. An alternate version contains orange juice, cinnamon, ginger, saffron, and rose water. I have no idea if this is genuinely Hungarian -- the ingredients seem consistent with other Spanish recipes of the period. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 02:50:36 EDT From: Varju at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Re: period Hungarian dishes <<THere are several 'hungarian' dishes in German cookbooks.>> I would really wonder if these are actually Hungarian recipies or are what Germans of the time thought Hungarians ate. << -- Mnchen: Codex germanicus monacensis 349 (1548) fol. 118r ss. (Vermerk ein guede kunst von vngrischen oder pechamyschen essen zu kochen; Wiswe 108 & note; according to Wiswe "wenig ergiebig"; seen one page in Wiswe's book, but not yet deciphered). >> It is possible this is the one that Lang mentions, although the date is a bit late, the one he discusses is recipies from the wedding feast of Hollos Mattyas (Matthias Corvinus) in 1475. Noemi Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:49:25 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is> Subject: Re: SC - Re: period Hungarian dishes Thomas wrote: >If you know of other recipes of this kind, please, let me know. The 1616 Danish cookbook has a few recipes "in the Hungarian manner" - for spinach, pike and the following one: Lamme Stiek / Ender eller Kapuner paa Ungerske Steeg dem frst smuckt mre oc gir siden et saad offuer dem / saaledis: Tag Vijnedicke oc vijn / sla g iblant / oc gir en god suppe aff / leg der udi en heel HuideLg eller to / oc lad vel siude der met / red det til med Kanelbarck / Muskater / Muskateblomer / Ingefer / Saphran / oc giff det en liffig smag. Naar forbemelte Ful er vel steegt / saa leg den paa Fadet / oc giff samme Saad der offuer / oc br det frem. Lamb, duck or capons in the Hungarian manner First fry them nicely tender and then make a sauce to pour over this way: Take wine vinegar and wine, beat an egg into this and make a good soup. Add a whole white onion or two and let it boil in the sauce. Add cinnamon, nutmeg, mace, ginger and saffron to taste. When the meat or bird is well cooked, then lay it on a plate, pour the sauce over it and serve forth. Nanna Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:29:54 +0100 From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de> Subject: SC - period Hungarian dishes Noemi wrote: << <THere are several 'hungarian' dishes in German cookbooks.> I would really wonder if these are actually Hungarian recipies or are what Germans of the time thought Hungarians ate. >> Absolutely true, that one has to be very careful about the value of these sources. I cannot comment on that as I do not know 'real' hungarian recipes of that time. I can imagine, that at least the documents of professional cooks like Jean de Bockenheim or Marx Rumpolt should be somehow reliable, because they were _cooking for_ people of different nations, e.g. at diplomatic meetings, and because they had a chance to meet colleagues from other countries. << <Mnchen: Codex germanicus monacensis 349 (1548) fol. 118r ss. (Vermerk ein guede kunst von vngrischen oder pechamyschen essen zu kochen ...)>. It is possible this is the one that Lang mentions, although the date is a bit late, the one he discusses is recipies from the wedding feast of Hollos Mattyas (Matthias Corvinus) in 1475. >> Wiswe dates the text in 1548, however, in the list of manuscripts in 'Du manuscrit a table', the same manuscript (cgm 349) is dated earlier: in the second half of the 15th century. So the dates given by either can be wrong. THe titles of the 4 recipes according to 'Du manuscrit': - -- Karpfen Im furhes und ein safran pre - -- Inber pre und praden kopan - -- ngel pre zw machen an pachen hecht oder Karpen - -- Peffer zw wilpradt The first two are in the Wiswe-picture. If I find my magnifying glass, I can try and transcribe them (the picture is very small). Let me add one thing from the 10th century: the earliest source for Hungarian cuisine seems to be the chronicle of a monk, called Heribald, in Sanct Gallen (the story is told in: M. Horvath, Die Paprika-Kueche. Ein ungarisches Kochbuch, Stuttgart 1957). He describes, how Hungarian soldiers attacked the monastery in 925. All the monks were gone before, except him. He said that he was treated very kind by them. In the evening they grilled a well seasened ox, that, according to Heribald, was _very_ tasty... Thomas Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:35:57 EDT From: Varju at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - period Hungarian dishes Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de writes: << Wiswe dates the text in 1548, however, in the list of manuscripts in 'Du manuscrit a table', the same manuscript (cgm 349) is dated earlier: in the second half of the 15th century. >> I guess the real key then is to get someone to read the manuscript and see if it mentions the wedding feast of Matthias Corvinus. <<THe titles of the 4 recipes according to 'Du manuscrit': - -- Karpfen Im furhes und ein safran pre - -- Inber pre und praden kopan - -- ngel pre zw machen an pachen hecht oder Karpen - -- Peffer zw wilpradt>> This might actually be of some help since Lang gives descriptions of three of the recipies. The best description he gives(good enough that I've recreated the recipe) is for Savanyu Vetrece (Sour Vetrece) which is beef in a sour cream and vinegar sauce. The other two he gives are as follows, "The carp dish at the feast was prepared as follows: First the fish was roasted; then gingerbread and white rolls were cooked in wine and pressed through a sieve; then apple and pear added and agian the whole thing pureed. Finally the roast fish was placed in the middle of this puree and served with saffron honey. Another dish was capon in ginger juice thickened with the dough of a white roll cooked in wine peppered and properly salted." If the two reciepes you have access two resemble any of these at all then it is the right source. The final reference you give is one I've seen before and is a fine description of the early Magyar raiding parties. . . Noemi Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 01:03:52 +0100 From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de> Subject: SC - information access / Hungarian cuisine "Of course, many other people are able to use the collection for various research projects." This is quoted from an article by Louis Szathmary about "The Szathmary Culinary Archives", a collection of about 18.000 cookbooks and related culinary material. If I understood correctly, part of this collection was donated to the University of Iowa and is now part of their special collections; the other part seems to be housed "above my restaurant (The Bakery) in Chicago" (I may have got that wrong). The Szathmary collection seems to be especially strong in Hungarian cookbooks ("... contains just about every cookbook ever printed in Hungary"). Szathmary says that Marx Rumpolt (the author of the famous 'Ein new Kochbuch', 1581) is an Hungarian. I didn't recall that, so I reread Rumpolt's preface. Rumpolt says, that he was "an vieler Herrn Hfen" and that he learned about the cuisines of "Jtalien/ Niderlanden/ Reussen/ Preussen/ Polen/ Vngern/ Bhem/ Osterreich vnd Teutschlandt". And, yes, he says that he is "ein geborner Vnger", who had to leave the land when he was young because of the Turkish invasion in that time. Thus, it seems to me that we can take Rumpolt's recipes 'in an Hungarian style' to be somewhat more close to Hungarian cuisine than the Hungarian style recipes of other collections. Louis Szathmary mentions another interesting document in his collection: "a leather-covered document, handwritten on vellum in Hungary circa 1490". Looking from Europe, it seems that Chicago has at least two good culinary collections to visit (the other one being the John Crerar Library). If I ever drop by there ... Here is the URL of the four pages portrait of "The Szathmary Culinary Archives": http://www.lib.uiowa.edu/spec-coll/Bai/szathmary.htm Thomas (I am still collecting 'Hungarian recipes from non-Hungarian sources' to put on the web sometimes in the new year; contributions are welcome.) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:51:23 -0500 From: Sandra Kisner <sjk3 at admin.is.cornell.edu> Subject: SC - BMR: Laszlovszky, ed., Tender Meat under the Saddle (Berend) I didn't think I should post the entire review to the list, but I will forward it to anyone who is interested. Berend was rather disappointed with the book. Sandra Kisner sjk3 at cornell.edu **** Jozsef Laszlovszky, ed. "Tender Meat under the Saddle: Customs of Eating, Drinking and Hospitality among Conquering Hungarians and Nomadic Peoples". Medium Aevum Quotidianum sonderband 7. Krems: Medium Aevum Quotidianum, 1998. ISBN 3- 90-1094-10-5. Reviewed by Nora Berend Goldsmiths College, University of London hss01nb at gold.ac.uk The volume contains seven articles that have been given as papers at a conference organized by the College of Commerce, Catering and Tourism, the Society of Old Hungarian Culture and the Department of Medieval and Postmedieval Archaeology, Eotvos Lorand University, Budapest, Hungary. The articles have been translated into English by Alice M. Choyke and Laszlo Bartosiewicz. The book deals with various aspects of the eating habits of pastoral nomads of the Hungarian migration period (that culminated in the Hungarian conquest in the late ninth century) and the Middle Ages. Its emphasis is on what one can learn from archaeological remains. Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 03:17:01 +0100 From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE> Subject: SC - Help for Eastern European Feast << ... that there are various recipes in Marx Rumpolt that are listed as being "Hungarian". >> Yes, there are. As in several other cookbooks. Here is a somewhat premature list, as there are more recipes Nanna and Lady Brighid posted that are not yet incorporated, there are still more recipes in Rumpolt not yet in this list, and are still more cookbooks to look at... We had some discussion about the "value" of such recipes, a while ago. Anyway, to give you an idea: 14th century/ 15th century Frati p. 59 = Faccioli I, 97-98 (Torta ungareca per XII persone) CXIII Torta ungaresca per xii persone. Toy uno capone ben grasso e toy uno lombolo de porco grande e do cepole grosse e meza libra de specie dolze e fine e toy tre libre d'onto fresco che non sia salato e toy tanta farina che sia tre pani, la megliore, che tu poy avere; e toy lo capone e 'l lombolo del porco e fane morselletti e de le do cepole fane morselletti e meti queste cosse a sofriger [soflriger_Ed.] in lo songiazo fresco in quantit !; e de le dite dolze e zafarano assay e un poco de sale; e quando ben sofrito mitige un bichiero d'aqua ch'el se cocha senza compimento, e toli la farina e destruta con aqua fresca insalata con un pocho de salina e menala molto forte, e quando ben menato, toy uno testo de ramo ben stagnato e onzilo ben de questo lardo fresco che tu ay. Toy la pasta e menala e sotiliata con una mescola e fala sotille, e siate due a traer sotille a foglio con lardo e fane infina a XVIII fogli, et postea toy questo batuto de capon e de altre cosse fane uno solo suso questa met !, e poni tante altre foglie sopra questo solo ben inaffiato ziaschuno per si di lardo e fa una crosta de sopra per vardia. Questa torta vole poco foco sotto e ben foco di sopra, e poy fare per piu, o per men, toiando le cosse a questa mesura." (I hope the special characters go through.) Jean de Bockenheim, Registrum coquinae, c. 1430-50, ed. Laurioux 1988 Nr. 36 Alia basteda pro magnatis (the 'magnates' were the aristocrats in Poland and Hungary) Nr. 37 Alia torta pro Ungaris et Bohemis 16th century - -- Philipina Welser (1545) 141.17 (ain hecht ein machen auf vngeresch) - -- Sabina Welser (1553) S.24.12 & Nr. 191 (hecht jn ainer vngerischen brie) - -- Heidelberg: Codex palatinus germanicus 293, fol. 26r (Wiswe 108 & note). - -- Heidelberg: Codex palatinus germanicus 555, fol. 111r (Wiswe 108 & note). - -- Kleines Klosterkochbuch (ed. Otto, Leipzig 1856; not a very reliable source; the text is somewhat modernized, the manuscript was not found any more in later times): p. 11 (Ein Hecht auf hungarisch zu sieden), p. 31 (Wilde oder zahme G 0nse, Enten und Kapphanen auf hungarisch anzurichten), p. 34 (Junge Hhner auf hungrisch), p. 65 (Eine Gallart von jungen Ferkeln auf hungarisch zu bereiten), p. 67 (Ein Rinderbraten auf Hungarisch), p. 113 (Sauerkraut auf hungarisch anzurichten). - -- Anna Wecker (1598), p. 224f. (Ein Koppen vnd andere Hnerqualen oder Schlegel/ K 0lbern oder Schepsen auff Vngrisch zu bereiten). - -- Rumpolt, Ein new Kochbuch, 1581 hungarian recipes or characteristics mentioned on fol. 18r, 33v, 38r, 40r, 42r, 49v, 53r, 81r, 82v, 85v, 97v, 110r, 106r etc. (according to Wiswe 108; you might also search for "vnger" in our online-passages from Rumpolt, to see some of the mentioned recipes) - -- Meisbugo, Libro novo, 1557 fol. 17r (Trutte in vino alla Ongaresca; only mentioned; no recipe) fol. 107r (A fare potaccio di pesce, all' Ongaresca) 17th century - -- Grazer Kochbuch 1686, 97.1 (Ungarisch berschlagenes Pastetel) - -- Wolfenbttel: Codex Guelferbytanus 51 Aug. 4", fol. 218v; 223r (Wiswe 108 & note) - -- Coler (1665) p. 50 & 57 (Wiswe 108 & notes) 18th century - -- Riedlinger Kochbuch 1710, 33.9 // 52.14 // 54.11 // 56.11 // 231.13 (ein guet vngerische Suppen vber einen H 0chten/ einen Karpffen/ ein Hienel) - -- Riedlinger Kochbuch 1710, 73.9 (ungerischer Kopaun) ******************** << I don't think that there are any extant Prussian cookbooks from our period.>> There is one called by Gollub, its editor, "Aus der Kche der deutschen Ordensritter", published in Prussia 31 (1935) 118-129. Might be worth a look. An electronic version of the original German text is on my website. Not easy to read, however. Best, Thomas Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:51:00 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" <wandapease at bigfoot.com> Subject: SC - Book on Hungarian/Nomadic Cooking While browsing the same site that has the Melitta Weiss Adamson translation of "Ein Buck von Guter Spise" I came on another that might be of interest to the list. It is: Sonderband VII (Special Binding?) Jzsef Laszlovszky (ed.), Tender Meat under the Saddle. Customs of Eating, Drinking and Hospitality among Conquering Hungarians and Nomadic Peoples Istvn Fodor, The Culture of Conquering Hungarians Jzsef Laszlovszky, Research Possibilities into the History and Material Culture of Eating, Drinking and Hospitality during the Period of Hungarian Conquest Gbor Vkony, Feasting and Hospitality among Eastern Nomadic Peoples Pter Tomka, Customs of Eating and Hospitality among Nomadic Peoples of the Migration Period Mikls Takcs, How Did Conquering Hungarians Prepare and Serve their Food? Ferenc Gyulai, Archaeobotanical Sources in Investigating the Diet of Conquering Hungarians Lszl Bartosiewicz, Mobile Pastoralism and Meat Consumption: an Archaeozoological Perspective ISBN 3-90 1094 10 5 Krems 1998 Sonderband VIII http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/maq/Verzeichnis.html imareal at oeaw.ac.at I have ordered the Buch von der Guter Spise. A Ms. Birgit Karl has been very helpful in answering my questions and setting up the "buy" (books-drugs, both are addictive!). Regina Romsey <the end> Edited by Mark S. Harris fd-Hungary-msg Page 11 of 11