fd-East-Eur-msg - 7/3/05 Period food of Eastern Europe. Recipe sources. References. NOTE: See also the files: East-Eur-msg, fd-Hungary-msg, fd-Poland-msg, fd-Russia-msg, fd-Greece-msg, Hungary-msg, Poland-msg, Gypsies-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:11:31 EST From: Varju at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Re: eastern European fare LrdRas at aol.com writes: << Actually it's not at all clear whether there is documentation or not. Historically these countries were heavily influenced by al-Islam which is a continuing influence behind the problems in this region in the Current Middle Ages. I would be hesitant to say rhat their is no documentation.>> I first want to start by saying to Ras that I am not disputing this very true statement, I am only trying to narrow it down to avoid any confusion. Heaven knows the history of the region is complicated enough without any help. :-> The influence of the middle and near east, in the form of the Ottoman Turks, was the strongest in the Balkans (Albania, Macedonia, Serbia, Bosnia, and Croatia) as well as Romania because they came under Turkish rule relatively early. In contrast Hungary did not come under Turkish rule until relatively late (after the battle of Mohacs in 1527) so the influence on cuisine, as was pointed out to me here probably did not occur until outside our period. The modern Czech Republic (Bohemia and Moravia) and Poland were never invaded by the Ottoman Turks so they never had that type of influence. Slovakia, while it was a part of the medieval kingdom of Hungary was not a part that was conquered by the Turks so that influence would be lacking there also. As I mentioned before, I know for sure that there are collections of period recipes that are in Hungary. The question is not of access but of language, because anyone can go to the Szechenyi library and request them, they just are not in English and have never been fully translated. (George Lang includes several translated recipes from two manuscripts in _Cuisine of Hungary_) I believe that will hold true of most of the states of Eastern Europe, that the documents are there and not been translated, not through any political reason, just that it has not been done. (The states that came out of the former Yugoslavia may be an exception, there the documents may have been destroyed during the continued conflict.) I think it is one area where national sentiment may have been useful, in that these documents would have been saved because they represented a piece of the national identity. Noemi Windkeep, Outlands Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:11:25 EST From: Varju at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Re: eastern European fare chickengoddess at mindspring.com writes: << Stew cultures are those whose primary method of preparing food was as a stew, and whose primary method of service of these stews was that the family or other grouping ate from a communal pot. >> At least for Hungary this is a bit of a stretch. There are some period descriptions of what the Magyars ate while they were raiding, which was usually a stew of some sort eaten out of a communal pot, but that was traveling food, not what you would eat every day. I'm also not sure how going from anthropological slant would help much, I would personally find an archeological slant more helpful since it would look at the actual cooking utensils and related items. And there are some documentably period recipes for Hungary, they just aren't in English, which I think is probably true of all parts of Eastern Europe. Noemi Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 02:46:18 EST From: Varju at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Re: eastern European fare ddfr at best.com writes: << Actually, I believe a few, late period Hungarian recipes were published, in English, in a book on Hungarian cooking. >> Yep. . .silly me. . .there are a few in _Cuisine of Hungary _ by George Lang. Noemi Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:08:19 EST From: Varju at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Re: eastern European fare ddfr at best.com writes: << Also, there is supposed to be a Hungarian manuscript c. 1400, although I have no idea if it has ever been published, and am pretty sure it has not been translated. >> Again it gets mention in _Cuisine of Hungary_ and George Lang provides a translation of the Savanyu Vetrece (Sour Vetrece), which I'm still working on the redaction for. Noemi Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 22:38:09 -0800 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: david friedman Subject: [Sca-cooks] An Early Romanian Cookbook An eastern European acquaintance recently sent me a copy of an early Romanian cookbook. As best I can figure out, with the help of a friend who knows some Romanian, it probably dates from the end of the 17th century. That's pretty late but, given how little we have from eastern Europe, still interesting. I have webbed a few pages of it as part of my project to find translators for previously untranslated cookbooks. They are at: http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/For_Translation/O_Lume/O_Lume_Intr_O_Carte_de_Bucate -- David Friedman Professor of Law Santa Clara University ddfr at best.com http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:07:04 -0500 (CDT) From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Romanian period recipes This collection, which I found last night while researching 12th Night, has some articles that might be useful. I didn't pay a huge whole lot of attention, but there was a lot of stuff on Eastern Europe (which is why I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to it) and I distinctly remember Moldavia showing up in a title. So it may or may not be helpful. Food in change : eating habits from the Middle Ages to the present day / edited by Alexander Fenton and Eszter Kisb=E1n. Published: Edinburgh : John Donald Publishers in association with the National Museums of Scotland ; Atlantic Highlands, N.J. : Distribution by Humanities Press, c1986. Description: viii, 166 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. Contributors: Fenton, Alexander. Kisb=E1n, Eszter. International Conference on Ethnological Food Research 5th (1983 : M=E1traf=FCred, Hungary) Notes: "Essays based on contribution to the Fifth International Conference on Ethnological Food Research, organised by the Institute of Ethnology of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, at M=E1traf=FCred ... Hungary, in October 1983"--Introd. Includes bibliographies. ISBN 0859761452 Margaret Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:39:00 -0400 From: johnna holloway To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] Romanian period recipes I own this and I can find it!!! And no it's not going to solve your problems. The Romanian article is 18th and early 19th centuries. Johnna Holloway Johnnae "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" wrote:> snipped > This collection, which I found last night while researching 12th Night, > has some articles that might be useful. ... I distinctly remember > Moldavia showing up in a title. So it may or may not be helpful.> > Food in change : eating habits from the Middle Ages to the present > day / edited by Alexander Fenton and Eszter Kisb=E1n. Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:36:02 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: [Sca-cooks] FW: paprika and spikenard To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" Cc: "'Charles.Perry at latimes.com'" While most secondary sources credit the Turks with bringing paprika peppers to Hungary, the possibility that they came through the Croatian spice traders can't be ruled out. The Turkish claim is based mostly on the timing of the incursions of the 1520's and the presumption that peppers came to the Ottomans from Spain via the Venetians then were brought into Central Europe by Ottoman troops. The Ragusans were active competitors with the Venetians during the 15th and 16th Centuries. Historically, the area was ruled by Hungary from the 12th to the 16th Century when it came under Ottoman control. Dubrovnik proper was controlled by the Venetians from 1205 to 1358, when it was ceded to Hungary. There is a connection to Spain in that some of the spice merchants were Jewish and took in refugees from the Marrano persecutions in Spain. There is a new book, that I am looking forward to reading, from the Central European University Press, The Long Journey of Gracia Mendes, which ties to all of these subjects during 1510 to 1569. The author is Marianna D. Birnbaum, Professor Emeritus from, wonder of wonders, UCLA. I am interested in reading the thesis and I hope Mr. Perry would be so kind as to provide a bibliographic citation that can be used to find copies. As a small point for anyone chasing references to Ragusa, there are two Ragusas. One is Dubrovnik, the other is a town in Sicily. Bear >>>>> I just received this by email and thought some of you might be interested as we have discussed both of these items here before. I am in fact honored to have gotten this email, for if my guess is correct, this is the same Charles Perry and his book which have been previously mentioned on this list. Perhaps some of you studying eastern Europe or the Balkans might want to check out this thesis. Bear? Stefan -----Original Message----- From: Perry, Charles [mailto:Charles.Perry at latimes.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 5:54 PM To: Mark.S Harris Subject: paprika and spikenard I just came across a collection of historical spice threads collected by you. I had two observations to contribute, didn't know where else to send them. Paprika: -ika is a Slavic suffix used on plant names; paprika means "pepper plant." It was not introduced to Hungary by the Turks but by Croatian merchants from Ragusa (now Dubrovnik). There is a thesis on file at UCLA on this subject, complete with maps of the spice routes through the Balkans. Spikenard: It has a musky, resinous scent, and its commonest use throughout history has been as a hair tonic or perfume (it is still probably used for that purpose -- I suspect its presence in Vitalis), but occasionally it has flavored foods and beverages. My translation of the 14th-century Arabic cookbook "Kitab Wasf al-At'ima al-Mu'tada" (in "Medieval Arab Cookery," Prospect Books, 2001) gives some recipes that call for it. At present, spikenard is available at markets that sell Iranian food products. It comes in little cellophane packages -- looking like a tangle of brown wires -- under the name "valerian." In Perso-Arab script, however, the packages call it by its Arabic name, "sunbul al-tib," "fragrant spikenard." <<<< Edited by Mark S. Harris fd-East-Eur-msg Page 5 of 5