yeasts-msg – 8/2/15

Medieval use of yeast. Using it in the CMA.

NOTE: See also these files: BNYeast-art, bread-msg, beverages-msg, beer-msg, mead-msg, breadmaking-msg, leavening-msg.

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From: Richard Bainter <pug at interval.net>
Subject: Re: brewing yeasts
To: bryn-gwlad at eden.com
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:08:45 -0500 (CDT)

> >I am hoping it will be worth it in just better taste. (Things sitting
> >around my house too long will start fermenting on the yeasts floating
> >around in the air from the amount of brewing of late.)
> Oh yuck. I can just see it now. Yeast growing on cheese, and milk and
> sausage and tea and... old shoes and...

Not that bad at all. Only had problems with juices left out.

> How do you keep the wrong yeasts from the wrong beverage?

You steralize and stop (lots of different methods) the yeasts in whatever
you are brewing. Then when you pitch the yeast you want and it has the
highest chance of taking hold. (You give it a head start by either using
liquid yeast or a yeast starter.)

> I'm assuming you are using different yeasts for beers, ales and wines.

And many different kinds. There is a good yeast FAQ at:

http://alpha.rollanet.org/library/yeast-faq.html

> You're not doing bread making are you?

Nope. My mother-in-law does that.

> Yes, with commercial yeasts you may not
> have to leave them open to the air for long, but..

Lots of people still use an open style fermintation. This means you just
leave it open and let whatever lands in it go. This works in places that
have high concentrations of the yeast you want. (And of course doing this
successfully means that the yeast then has a higher chance of being the
one you want due to it multiplying. Nice cycle.)
-- 
Phelim Uhtred Gervas  | "I want to be called. COTTONTIPS. There is something 
Barony of Bryn Gwlad  |  graceful about that lady. A young woman bursting with 
House Flaming Dog     |  vigor. She blinked at the sudden light. She writes
pug at pug.net           |  beautiful poems. When ever shall we meet again?"


From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com>
To: sca-cooks at eden.com
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:27:16 -0400
Subject: Re: sca-cooks Greetings

Sharon L. Harrett wrote:

>         A thread has been heating up on my other listserver and I would like
> to ask you all your opinions. The discussion is on "yeast", for brewing and
> baking. The argument seems to be split between those who believe that
> "yeast" was unknown in period and therefore should not be used in any
> authentic period cooking, baking or brewing. The other side is that although
> folks in period did not neccessarily call their leavening "yeast" we know
> now that most starters work because wild yeasts have taken up residence in
> them, and that therefore to ensure a quality product for SCA consumption it
> would not be a leap of logic to use packaged yeast for baking and brewing.
> Ceridwen

I don't see what the problem is with using commercial yeast. It provides
a reasonably sure, unmutated yeast culture that does the job with a
greater level of consistency than any sourdough can. Sourdough is a
southern European thing anyway, and while it is very ancient, you cannot
assume all baking was done that way. Northern European recipes generally
call for barm, which is a byproduct from brewing ale, using a
top-fermenting ale yeast.

While this must at one time have been developed from wild yeasts, the
ale recipes often call for adding an existing yeast starter. Considering
the amounts produced by some of the brewing recipes, and the records of
the disappointment expressed when a feast day's entire batch of ale or
beer turned out to be bad, I wouldn't think they'd want to mess around
taking chances

By the way, where do people think the little blocks of fresh yeast,
wrapped in foil, come from? If you read the label carefully, you'll
generally find that much of it is produced by a subsidiary of
Anheuser-Busch.

Q.E.D.

Adamantius


From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (Nancy Wederstrandt)
To: sca-cooks at eden.com
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:43:05 -0600
Subject: sca-cooks yeast in cooking

While I can't tell you the date of the recipe (it is during the 16th
century) it is taken from A Booke of Cookry.

To seeth Roches, Flounders, or Eeles.
Make ye good broth with new yest, put therin vergious, salt, percely, a little
time, and not much rosemary and pepper, so set it upon the fire and boile
it, and when it is well boyled put in the Roches, Flounders, Eeles and a
little sweet butter.

Almost all the sauce for fish include yeast, which I found interesting.
Many thanks to Katerine Rountre for her notes on yeast.  They were what I
needed since I haven't started redacting yet.  Next question is how do you
think the yeast was used....(what consistency)

Clare St. John


From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
To: sca-cooks at eden.com
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:44:41 -0500
Subject: sca-cooks yeast

Hi, Katerine here.  Tibor said:

>  Many thanks to Katerine Rountre for her notes on yeast.  They were what I
>  needed since I haven't started redacting yet.  Next question is how do you
>  think the yeast was used....(what consistency)
>
>Wow.  I have NO ideas.  I'd scoop up a tablespoon of ale barm from a bottle
>of home-made  beer, and taste it.  And see how it works.  (Damn shame if I'd
>have to drink the beer to get to the barm, wouldn't it be? :-)

I don't know either.  I do know that yeast and barm show up as *alternatives*
in some recipes, so there seems to have been some other form available; and
since using sourdough occurs rarely relative to yeast, I doubt that's it.
More than that, I can't say.

Cheers,
-- Katerine/Terry


From: MaryGraceB at aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:34:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - More on Yeast...for real this time

Ok guys....my mouse died and I am trying to learn to navigate without one
until I can get to the store to get another....so that is hopefully a
plausible excuse for sending out a message that did not have anything in
it....<g> Following is the message that I intended to send regarding the
yeast issue.  

MGB

From:	rayc at totcon.com (Ray Caughlin)

Another older timer and I spend a couple hours on the phone and she said
that I needed to inform people that yes yeast did exist during our societal
time period: in its wild and natural form. She continued to tell stories of
ways that our early ancestors used to harvest these yeastie beasties.

Alewives, would make rush brooms which they used only to stir their brew.
When not in use, they were hung near the open door way of their home. In
essence the broom was being soaked in the ale makings and then it collected
the wild yeast organism.

Toast or bread was added to some brews to impart "their flavor."

Our knowledge of yeast is modern. We know how to cultivate it and package
it. We have been able to break it down and discover that different forms of
yeast help produce food and beverages of varied kinds.

Taken from a work by Duke (?)Caraidoc and his Lady Wife, " Chemical
Leavenings

So far as we can discover, both baking soda and baking powder are far out
of period. According to the 1992 Old Farmer's Almanac, Saleratus (Potassium
Bicarbonate) was patented as a chemical leavening in 1840. Hartshorn
(Ammonium Carbonate) was used for stiffening jellies by about the end of
the sixteenth century (Wilson) but we have found no reference to its use as
a leavening agent prior to the late 18th century."
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/cooking_from_primary_sources.html

I think all will find this link filled with useful information concerning
food and cooking for the Society.

So I return to my statement that our ancestors had to gather the wild yeast
by creating leavenings or starters which encouraged the growth of these
wild wonders, but that yeast (by that name or as a purchasable product) did
not!

I am sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes by standing by my research, but if
I didn't believe it, I wouldn't have written it. This does prove that
having a host of awards after one's name does help. The you might have
realized that I have done a great deal of research concerning food and food
preparation.

Still active (like proofed yeast)
Lord Mandrigal of Mu, Master Oldenfeld Cooks Guild.


From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com>
To: sca-cooks at eden.com
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:26:50 -0400
Subject: Re: sca-cooks Greetings

Aonghas MacLeoid (B.G. Morris) wrote:

> Yeast, as we know it, would most definitely have been used in period times.
> To achieve the yeast, and rising of today, periods cooks would leave a bowl
> of flour, water (or milk) and sugar. This was used to collect *wild* yeast,
> that would form the basis for bread, with a *natural* rising take place. It
> is my opinion that medieval breads could be likened to *sour dough* bread.
> 
> Regards,
> Ealasaid

The sourness of a given batch of sourdough starter depends on the number
of generations that have passed, and mutated, since the capture of the
original yeast. Wild yeasts of fairly recent vintage  can still produce
a not-especially-sour dough. It is only when it is recycled quite a few
times that it becomes really sour, or in some cases, bitter. When it
reaches that stage it is (and presumably was, or may have been) common
practice to throw it away and start a new batch.

Adamantius


From: Deloris Booker <dbooker at freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:20:15 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks Greetings

Re Yeast in period,

May I refer one and all to two books: 

English bread and yeast cookery : Elizabeth David

Food in England : Huxley (long oout of print, but now available again in a
vastly overpriced edition from Little Brown)

Both books spend a lot of time on yeast in english cookery.

Aldreada of the lakes


From: Ilkka Heikki Salokannel <Rennes at xl.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 23:37:40 PDT
Subject: SC - Re yeast, chewets, and confits

Greetings Cooks,

Re Yeast: - You are quite correct in that the medieval cook 
couldnít go to a store and buy a package of dried yeast BUT  
both the word "yest" and "berme" or "barm" (ale yeast) were 
used in medieval sources (to give just a few examples):
[Royal 17. A. iii MS. British Library, London. (c. 1370)] Ad 
faciendum brakott - "...put therto newe berm..."
[MS BL Add. 5016 British Library, London (c. 1380) known as 
Form of Cury ] Frytour of erbesî - "... a lytel yest..."; 
Bragget - "... do gode berme aboue..."
[Rawlinson MS. D1222 Bodleian Library, Oxford (c.1380)] 
Mynceleek - "...do theryn a litel berme or a litel sourdoug"
[Harleian Ms. 279. (c.1420)] Cryspey - "... a lytel 
Berme..."; Fretoure - "take whete floure, Ale yest, Safroun, 
& Salt..."; Rastons - "...than take warme Berme...". 
[Holkham Collection (c. 1460) known as "A Noble Boke off 
Cookry ffor a Prynce Houssolde of eny other Estately 
Houssolde"] To mak rostand - "...a litill yest of new ale..."
Leavening could be done two ways in the Middle Ages by either 
the sourdough method or by using the froth or "barm" from the 
top of fermenting ale. This was "ale yest".  (Beer yeast 
ferments on the bottom.) They, of course, had no idea what 
yeast was (first discovered by Louis Pasteur in the 19th 
century). The "yeast" in the sourdough method was airborne 
wild yeasts of two kinds in medieval Europe. In the north the 
wild yeasts are what were later domesticated into modern 
"ale" and "beer" yeasts. In the south the wild yeasts are 
what become "wine" yeasts. As the temperature increased the 
limit of grape growing and airborne wild "wine" yeast moved 
north and the medieval climate was, on the whole, warmer than 
modern day. Modern "bread" yeasts are derived from the 
domestication of North American wild airborne yeasts. 
(Sourdough yeasts for starters came from N.America to France 
not the other way around.) Yeasts are differentiated by their 
tolerance for alcohol - a toxic waste product to the yeast. 
Here in N. America we can make very good sourdough without 
buying expensive starter packages, but have to protect our 
wine and beer during fermentation from wild yeasts. [I worked 
in R&D for Wine-Art in the seventies and read my way around 
an entire room of  books about wine, wine history, wine 
tasting, the chemical composition of wine, and yeasts. - 
thought I should explain how I know this.]

Mistress Rowenna de Roncesvalles OL. OP
Barony of Lions Gate, Kingdom of An Tir
- -------------------------------------
Name: Ilkka Heikki Salokannel
E-mail: Ilkka Heikki Salokannel<Rennes at xl.ca>


From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:48:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Scottish Recipes

  In some of my older German recipe books, an ingredient is called for that
  translates as 'hartshorn'.  It is used in place of baking powder.  Is
  there a zoologist out there who could tell us if grated deer antlers
  would perform like baking powder or soda?  If so, we could use the modern
  substitute for health reasons. 

If I recall correctly, hartshorn is an ammoniated equivalent to baking
powder, still available in England, and which produces a slightly different
flavor and texture.

	Tibor


Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:46:50 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - beer bread recipe (was re: small feasts)

Par Leijonhufvud wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, Stephanie Rudin wrote:
> 
> > gently and then dispose of the sediment.  Would you want to keep that
> > sediment
> > when using it to cook with?  Or is it just nasty stuff that should be
> > disposed of?
> 
> It should be usable as a "substitute" for yeast (it is yeast:-). IIRC
> there are comments by Roman writers (with these words I hereby invoke the,
> Adamantius! ;-) that the Germans had bread that was much nicer that their
> own, without the sour taste and all.

Pliny the Elder, Historia Naturalis, IIRC, is what you are referring
to...the problem is that most of what comes to us as homebrew is
top-fermenting ale, and what sinks to the bottom is almost completely
dead yeast. You might be able to take  a solution of water and sugar
(preferably malt extract or actual brewer's wort) and use that trub at
the bottom to create a live yeast starter. When you've got that, you can
skim some of the foamy glop off the TOP, and use that for leavening,
since it's now live yeast. Bear in mind that in period both brewing and
baking were not so much frequent events as constantly ongoing processes,
and the raw materials for one were regularly being produced by the
other.

Adamantius


Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:47:50 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: SC - beer bread recipe (was re: small feasts) 

The Romans used grape must from wine making as bread leavening.  This
produces a sourer leavening than the ale barm used by the German tribes.

If you do use the sediment, try "cleaning" it by mixing it with a cup
lukewarm water and a small pince of sugar.  Keep the mixture warm and
decant the liquor when the yeast grows.  Use the liquor for leavening.
To be honest, I haven't tried cleaning barm, but I'm working a deal with
a local brewer to get ale barm to experiment with cleaning and growing
it.

Bear 


Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:07:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ladypeyton at aol.com
Subject: Re:  Re: SC - beer bread recipe (was re: small feasts)

>You might be able to take  a solution of water and sugar
>(preferably malt extract or actual brewer's wort) and use that trub at
>the bottom to create a live yeast starter. When you've got that, you can
>skim some of the foamy glop off the TOP, and use that for leavening,
>since it's now live yeast. Bear in mind that in period both brewing and
>baking were not so much frequent events as constantly ongoing processes,
>and the raw materials for one were regularly being produced by the
>other.

I'm fairly positive that beer yeast used to make bread will not have a taste
that you expect.   Bear in mind that brewing & vinting yeasts are only
distant cousins of bread yeasts today.  I tried a wine with a bread yeast as
an experiment.  Yeuchhhh!  I have never tried the reverse but I wouldn't be
surprised if the same yeuchhh result was the outcome.  If you try it I would
be extremely interested in what your results were.

Peyton   


Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:53:16 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: Re: SC - beer bread recipe (was re: small feasts)

There are many different kinds of yeast, each of which works best for
specific purposes.  The brewers I know carefully choose their yeasts and
sterilize their carboys and equipment to reduce the possibility of
introducing wild yeast.   For baking I tend to use dry active yeast
purchased by the pound and stored in a jar in the refrigerator.  Trying
to swap one kind of packaged yeast for another usually doesn't work.

We know that for bread leavening the Romans used grape must, the
Germanic tribes used ale barm, and that ale barm continued to be used
into period.  Brewing and baking were ongoing activities about the
manors and probably remained that way through the period we recreate.
They were among the first forms of work to become commercial enterprises
as towns and urban centers began growing.  Commercial medieval brewers
cultivated their yeasts and I expect medieval baker's did the same,
although I have found no evidence to support this.  

We do know that bakers did grow their own yeast in the 18th and 19th
centuries.  In the first half of this century, home bakers could still
buy yeast from the local bakery.  The commercial breweries, who had to
cultivate yeast anyway, began to cultivate baker's yeast as well,
providing a cheaper, better source of yeast to commercial bakers and the
general public.  

The idea of growing yeast from the dregs and using the barm for baking
is similar to the practice of cleaning barm.  The gathered ale barm is
allowed to settle, the liquor is then decanted  and added to a warm
solution of water and barley malt extract.  The mixture is kept warm and
the yeast is allowed to grow.  The liquor is decanted and used as
leavening.  The process can be repeated indefinitely, but there are many
reports of the yeast culture weakening over time.  Unless you are really
feeling experimental, starting with an ale barm is probably advised. 

Ales are top fermenting and are fairly light tasting.  The use of ale
barm (the foam on top of the ale pot) as bread leavening is documented.
The active fermentation is at the top of the pot, so it makes a fast
acting yeast (relatively) and it can be dried and stored for periods
when no ale is brewing.  The ale itself can be used as leavening (as
long as it has not been pastuerized) since there is yeast throughout the
product, but the action will be slower.  Almost all American commercial
beers are some form of ale.

Beers are bottom fermenting and usually are heavier and more bitter than
ale.   The taste is carried over into any bake goods.  And in any case,
collecting beer yeast really would be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

If you are interested in further research Stefans Floregium has some
good information on yeast and Elizabeth David's English Bread and Yeast
Cookery covers all of the ingredients in baking and covers a number of
historical practices.  

Bear


Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 05:30:33 +0200 (METDST)
From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei at ki.se>
Subject: Baking (was: Re: SC - beer bread recipe (was re: small feasts))

On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Decker, Terry D. wrote:
> into period.  Brewing and baking were ongoing activities about the
> manors and probably remained that way through the period we recreate.

Recent historical records (19th century and onwards to modern times in
Finland) describe how a continous sourdough culture was maintained in the
wooden baking trough. Enough yeast-containing dough always remained in the
trough, and subsequently "restarted" each time baking was done. 

/UlfR
- --
Par Leijonhufvud                  par.leijonhufvud at labtek.ki.se 


Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:29:45 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Manchet (LONG POST)

><< e: adding the salt to the liquid...wouldn't that kill the yeast and
>prevent
> the bread from rising?   >>
>
>Adding the salt to the recipe would slow down the growth of the yeast. This
>is good. Fast growing yeast produces unwanted compounds which could, for
>instance, cause a decided bitter flavor in the finished product.
>
>Ras

Good point.  Salt is generally added to improve the flavor of the bread,
which is why I'll increase the salt the next time I make manchet. It
does slow yeast activity and by doing so "sweetens" the bread.  The
ratios of yeast/salt/flour differ based primarily on the length of the
rise.     

In the case of the recipe for manchet, the major rise of the bread is
during baking and the rise times are so short that you really don't
worry about fast growing yeast.  Standard bread recipes usually call for
1 teaspoon of salt to one or two teaspoons of dry active yeast and about
two pounds of flour with a two hour first rise and a one to two hour
second rise.

The place where the balance gets tricky is when you create a slow rise
bread or a starter.  Either of these may rise for as much as twelve
hours.  Some of the recipes I've seen call for tablespoon of salt to a
teaspoon of yeast and two pounds of flour.

Bear


Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:22:18 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Manchet (LONG POST)

I learned some things about using yeast in solution over the weekend.
Since I normally use dry active yeast, I am unfamiliar with the
characteristics of keeping and using yeast in solution.  The following
is from a message I sent earlier and describes a test I ran this
weekend.

I learned a little more about yeast as a liquid over the weekend after I
read about "cleaning" ale barm.  Ale barm which is skimmed from the
active fermentation at the top of the ale pot is poured into a gallon of
fresh, clean water, stirred and left to sit overnight.  This is to
remove some of the taste of the bittering agents (like hops) in the ale.
No actively fermenting, the yeast settles to the bottom.  The water is
decanted, except for the pint or so containing the yeast.  Since I
normal use dry active yeast, and I am unfamiliar with the
characteristics of yeast being kept in solution, I decided to
experiment.

As a test, I decanted 1/2 cup of the yeast solution and added it to 1/2
cup lukewarm water and a pinch of sugar.  I then stirred the yeast
solution and decanted 1/2 cup into a 1/2 cup lukewarm water with a pinch
of sugar.  I covered the two test batches and let them stand in the
kitchen for several hours.  Then I stirred each solution and decanted 1
ounce of the solution into a 1/2 cup of lukewarm water and mixed in 1
cup of flour to make two starters.  The remainder yeast solutions were
returned to the yeast jar.

After four hours, the stirred solution starter was about three times the
size of the other.  The starters were then used to make bread.  They
were added to dough mixtures of 2 cups of flour sifted with 1 tablespoon
of salt, 2 tablespoons of melted butter, and 2 eggs.  Two additional
cups of flour were kneaded into each mixture.  They were allowed to rise
for two hours, then punched down kneaded slightly, formed into four one
pound loaves, placed in greased baking tins and allowed to rise for two
hours.  They were baked at 400 degrees F for 45 minutes.

The stirred yeast produced 2 one pound country loaves with superb taste
and density.  The unstirred yeast produced loaves with half the rise, a
doughy texture and a taste which could be kindly described as terrible.

This morning I looked at the yeast jar.  There were three defined
layers.  A clear translucent layer at the top, solids at the bottom, and
a yellow translucent layer in between.  So apparently without active
fermentation, the yeast concentrates toward the bottom of the solution
and you get the best mix of yeast by stirring before decanting. 

This also means that the difference in rise between my second and third
batches of manchet may be due to a difference in agitation as I decanted
the yeast solution. 
 
Bear 


Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:42:22 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: Unit alert! (was: SC - Long-Period food, bread, etc.)

Par Leijonhufvud wrote:
> > It is two envelopes primarily to get a good rise quickly. 
> 
> When you say; "an envelpe of yeast"; just how much yeast is this? If
> given the amounts we non-US cooks have some chance of figuring out what
> is equivalent, but not when it comes to packages.
> 
> /UlfR
> (Who buys yeast is 50 gram cakes)

The recipe I based the peri-oid "white" bread recipe I posted called for
2 envelopes of dry yeast, or 1 ounce of fresh "cake" yeast. An envelope
of dry yeast in the USA is a fairly standard measurement equivalent to
1/4 ounce per envelope (roughly 1 Tablespoon, if you buy it by bulk in
jars or some such. So two envelopes is 1/2 ounce dry yeast, or roughly
equivalent to a 1-ounce cake of fresh yeast, in the States,  or
approximately 1/2 of one of Ulf's 50-gram cakes in Sweden.

Now, I should also point out that the recipe I posted was in response to
a request from a lady looking for a bread recipe for an event,
presumably to be baked in bulk. Yes, an experienced baker can get by
with much less yeast, given things like sufficient time to start a
sponge the night before, a six-hour rise time, give or take an hour, and
a proper oven. And, yes, there are certainly ways to make the recipe
produce a loaf that would be closer to some forms of period bread. This
was an informed compromise, since I don't yet have a recipe scaled to
make fifty loaves using freshly washed ale barm ;  ), and I would want
to be a bit more experienced in the technique before spending event
money on it. 

Adamantius


Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:17:38 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Beer yeast for bread

> Over the weekend, my husband bought a version of Red Hook
> beer with a German name I don't recall at the moment (hefe something?).
> It has active yeast in it and I thought all weekend of how to turn it
> into yeast for bread.
>
> Anne

I've estimated that you need about 1 oz. of fresh ale barm to leaven 2 lbs.
of flour and I would expect it to take 12 to 24 hours to rise.  The leas,
having a lot of dormant yeast, aren't as active as fresh barm and need time
to grow, which is why it took a couple of days for Charles Ragnar to produce
bread.  If you want the yeast to work faster, you probably need to cultivate
it.

If you want to try cultivate the yeast, sterilize a quart cannning jar, lid,
and a large metal spoon, dissolve a couple of tablespoons of barley malt
into two cups of boiling water, empty the canning jar, put the spoon into it
(to dissipate heat) and pour in the boiling water, remove the spoon and
cover the jar loosely with the sterile lid.  Allow to cool below 100 degrees
F.  The idea is to kill off the molds and bacteria which can make your barm
unusable.

Wash off the neck of your beer bottle with hot water.  Open the bottle and
decant your drink, leaving an ounce or so in the bottle.  Swirl it around to
stir up the leas, and decant the leas into the solution in your canning jar.
Loosely cover the jar.  Agitate it mildly every few hours.  Give it a few
days.  Then agitate and decant and ounce or two as needed.  At this point
the barm can be stored in the refrigerator  for several weeks to months.

If the barm is cold,  agitate it and decant what you need, then allow the
decanted solution to come to room temperature before mixing it into your
bread making liquor.

The process is not as simple as using the leas and there is the problem of
infection.  I've lost my last two barm experiments to mold.  Must be El
Nino.

BTW, Your idea of using half a bottle as starter for beer bread is a good
one.  Active yeast should be in suspension in the liquid as well as in the
leas.  I hadn't thought about using Hefeweiss (I believe that's what you
have) as a bread starter, but it would be an interesting experiment.

Bear


Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:21:27 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: SC - yeast - LONG & OOP

While on a trip to New Orleans, I had the opportunity to stop at a bookstore
in Shreveport and come up with a couple of treasures.  One of these is
Tullie's Receipts, a book of recipes assembled from various 19th century
sources by the Kitchen Guild of the Tullie Smith House Restoration, Atlanta
Historical Society.  The recipes are from cookbooks published in the period,
Southern manuscript cookbooks written in the period, the odd recipe glossed
into a printed cookbook and venerable family recipes of undeterminable age.

I found the entries for yeast interesting, and am transcribing a couple of
them here.

Dry Yeast

Put four ounces of hops to six quarts of water; boil it away to three
quarts.  Strain, boiling hot (as directed for the Soft yeast) upon three
pints of flour, a large spoonful of ginger, and another of salt.  When it is
cool, add a pint of sweet yeast.  When it is foaming light, knead in sifted
Indian meal enough to make it very stiff.  Mould it into loaves, and cut in
thin slices, and lay it upon clean boards.  Set it where there is a free
circulation of air, in the sun.  After one side has dried so as to be a
little crisped, turn the slices over; and when both sides are dry, break
them up into small pieces.  It thus dries sooner than if not broken.  Set it
in the sun two or three days in succession.  Stir it often with your hand,
so that all parts will be equally exposed to the air.  When perfectly dry,
put it into a coarse bag and hang it in a dry and cool place.  The greatest
inconvenience in making this yeast is the danger of cloudy or wet weather.
If the day after it is made should not be fair, it will do to set the jar in
a cool place, and wait a day or two before putting in the Indian meal.  But
the best yeast is made when the weather continues clear and dry; and if a
little windy, so much the better.

To use it, take, for five loaves of bread, one handful; soak it in a very
little water until soft, which will be in a few minutes; stir it into the
sponge prepared for the bread.  This yeast makes less delicate bread than
the soft kind, but it is very convenient.

Mrs. M.H. Cornelius, The Young Housekeeper's Friend (1859)

Baker's Yeast

To a gallon of soft water put two quarts of wheat bran, one quart of ground
malt, (which may be obtained from a brewery,) and two handfuls of hops.
Boil them together for one half an hour.  Then strain through a sieve, and
let it stand till it is cold; after which put to it two large tea-cups of
molasses, and half a pint of strong yeast.  Pour it into a stone jug and let
it stand uncorked till next morning.  Then pour off the thin liquid from the
top, and cork the jug tightly.  When you are going to use the yeast, if it
has been made two or three days, stir in a little pearl-ash dissolved in
warm water, allowing a lump the size of a hickory-nut to a pint of yeast.
This will correct any tendency to sourness, and make the yeast more brisk.

Miss Leslie, Directions for Cookery (1847)

Strong yeast is barm from the brew pot.  Pearl-ash is cream of tartar.


Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:26:04 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Sourdough

> Does anyone out there have any experience with making sourdough starter? I
> started a batch a week ago and have been diligent about stirring several times
> a day. At first (days 1-3) it bubbled up and tried to escape and was real
> active and *smelled* like sourdough. But now (the 8th day -- the recipe said
> 5-10 days) it just sort of lays there in the bowl.
>
> Is this normal, or should I start again? Any tips?
>
> Renata

You probable should have sealed it in a jar and put it in the refrigerator
about day 5.  The starter needs to be used about once a week and you should
replace the amount of starter you use with an equal amount of lukewarm water
and flour mixed 1:1.

To see if your starter is still useable, break 1 cup of starter apart in 1
cup of luke warm water (80 to 90 degrees F).  Add a Tablespoon of honey or
sugar to the mix and stir to dissolve.  Stir in 1 cup of flour sifted with 1
Tablespoon of salt.  Stir in more flour until the dough forms a ball
(probably 2 cups).  Knead on a floured surface, adding flour as necessary
until the dough becomes smooth and elastic.  Put the dough in a greased
bowl, cover and let it rise until doubled (if it doesn't rise much, let it
rise for 3 hours).  Punch the dough down and form it into loaves (this
recipe should make about 2 pounds of bread).  Put the loaves on a greased
baking sheet or into greased tins.  Cover and let rise until doubled (or for
2 hours).  Bake in a preheated oven at 375 degrees for about 35 minutes or
until the loaves are brown and sound hollow when thumped on the bottom.

If the bread is too dense, you've probably killed off most of the yeast in
your sourdough starter and need to start over.  If you like the results,
replenish the starter and store it in a sealed container in your
refrigerator.

Bear


Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:44:54 EDT
From: Balano1 at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Sourdough

For the sourdough to get quiet after a fews days is perfectly normal.  I grew
up with fresh homemade Sourdough bread bread and waffles every weekend when my
dad had the time to cook.  Have kept my own starter going for years.  When you
take out half to make your bread or whatever and add it to the other bread
ingredients, it will perk right up!  BTW, that vinegar like substance is
hooch and will become alcoholic in a short time!

 - Nadene


Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 08:14:19 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Sourdough

> Just as a little aside, if the liquor of a starter has gone a sort of
> orange/brown colour it probably shouldn't be used. I too grew up with
> exclusively homemade bread (and had big jars of starter on the counter)
> and that was the sage advice my mom gave me a long time ago. Does anyone
> know why this is? I've always assumed that there are unwelcome guests in
> the starter if this happens.
>
> Coll

It's probably a mold.  Normally, you will get green ones, but there are some
red ones which attack grain products.  My last yeast experiment failed when
it became infected with mold.

Bear


Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 15:18:03 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Sourdough

> Bear says:
> >>You probable should have sealed it in a jar and put it in the
> refrigerator about day 5.<<
>
> The recipe says to keep it in the fridge covered with cheesecloth, not
> sealed.
>
> What to do, what to do...?;)
>
> Renata

If you leave it unsealed, be ready to use it every day or two.
Refrigeration reduces humidity and it will take the water out of the
starter.  Covering and refrigeration extends the life of the starter and
helps keep out molds and other undesirable critters.

If you use it often, you could leave it in a jar on the counter with a loose
top.  There are a number of comments about the Alaskan "sourdoughs" carrying
their sourdough starter in a pocket.

Bear


Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:00:25 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei at algonet.se>
Subject: RE: SC - Sourdough

On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Decker, Terry D. wrote:
> If you use it often, you could leave it in a jar on the counter with a loose
> top.  There are a number of comments about the Alaskan "sourdoughs" carrying
> their sourdough starter in a pocket.

There is, of course, another method of keeping a sourdough starter. This
is to use a wooden baking trough, and letting the remains of the last
dought form part of the next. This was done in country-side Finland up
until quite recently. I tried a version of this a few months ago. After
baking I left the bowl (plastic) stand on the counter until dry. The
next weekend I then simply mixed down the crusty remains with some
flour and water. And it started to rise after having been left alone
overnight, and worked well as a starter.

Or you could just freeze it between uses if you aren't going to bake
every week.

/UlfR
- --
Par Leijonhufvud                           parlei(at)algonet.se


Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:00:01 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Sourdough

> There is, of course, another method of keeping a sourdough starter. This
> is to use a wooden baking through, and letting the remains of the last
> dought form part of the next. This was done in country-side Finland up
> until quite recently. I tried a version of this a few months ago. After
> baking I left the bowl (plastic) stand on the counter until dry. The
> next weekend I then simply mixed down the crusty remains with some
> flour and water. And it started to rise after having been left alone
> overnight, and worked well as a starter.

I got to thinking about this the last time you mentioned it.  The wooden
baking trough works for small batches, but I don't think it is effective for
commercial quantities.  I expect large batches of bread were boosted with
ale barm to get a good rise in a reasonable time.

However, let's take your technique a little farther.  Create your leaven,
let it rise and bubble for a few days, then dry it out.  (Most bakers won't
do this because reconstituting a leaven in quantity is a pain.)  Grind the
dried leaven to powder.  At that point you have a high yeast content powder
which can be added to the dough to leaven it.  The powder should retain its
potency up to about 120 degrees F and, as long as you kept it dry, could be
easily transported in a pouch or a flask.  The technique is similar to some
stuff I've found in 19th Century recipes.

> Or you could just freeze it between uses if you aren't going to bake
> every week.

Good idea.  Bread dough will rise after freezing without a lot of problem,
so a leaven should freeze just fine.  I would let it come back to room
temperature before mixing dough.

> /UlfR

Bear


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 16:26:08 -0600
From: upsxdls at okway.okstate.edu
Subject: Re[2]: SC - Sourdough (getting further and further from topi

Ok, Bear, this is exactly what I'm looking for (although I didn't
know it until late yesterday afternoon).  All of my starter recipes
have been "cheaters" (using store-bought yeast to make the starter).

     Several years ago I stumbled across a bread cookbook entitled "The Garden
     Way Bread Baker's Almanac" or something like that.  It contains several
     receipes for making sourdough starter without store-bought yeast.  If I
     recall, it even contains some special recipes for unusual diets.  I can
     either post to the listserv, or you may email me privately:
     upsxdls at okstate.edu

     Good luck!  Leanna McLaren of Sparrowhaven


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:55:08 -0400
From: Nick Sasso <Njs at mccalla.com>
Subject: Why Sour? (Re[2]: SC - Sourdough (getting further and further)

Ok, Bear, this is exactly what I'm looking for (although I didn't
know it until late yesterday afternoon).  All of my starter recipes
have been "cheaters" (using store-bought yeast to make the
starter).............

The things that give sourdough its characteristic tartness (as well as
too many carboys of my beer!!) are the wild yeast, acetobaccili (makes
acetic acid) and lactobacilli (makes lactic acid) that are in the wandering
air about us.  There are certainly other things, but healthy yeast from
the store will not generally do the same.

On a tangential note, there is a yeast strain that will give beer a banana
and clove character when used in conjunction with wheat malt.  Might
ber a hoot to try in bread......or a starter...........(weihenstephan or
wheat beer yeast).

niccolo difrancesco


Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 18:59:59 -0400
From: "Alma Johnson" <chickengoddess at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: Yeast

>I got a coupon for a free strip of Rapid-Rise yeast and it got me
>wondering. I was hoping Adamantius or Bear or someone could answer this.
>What exactly is rapid-rise yeast? What do they do to it to make it rise
>faster?

To the best of my knowledge, there are 2 differences.  One is the strain of
yeast.  Some are more vigorous than others, and just about every yeast
manufacturer has it's own, which is why you'll find that the "same" yeast
from different companies will act differently.  Next is the process by which
the yeast is deactivated, to keep it dormant till you wake it up when
_you're_ ready for it to work.  The process often used is a heat drying
process.  This does, however, kill off some of the yeast.  Instant yeast is
dried at lower temps than active dry, killing fewer yeasties in the process,
so you get a faster start, and generally more bang for your buck.

Rhiannon Cathaoir-mor
Not Adamantius, nor Bear, but a baking freak, nevertheless.


Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:16:46 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - Yeast

Sigh.  From http://www.breadworld.com/products/ , The Fleischmann's Yeast
website:

 "Fleischmann's Active Dry yeast:

 This yeast is the original active dry yeast product. It is highly stable and
known for its consistent performance and works best when dissolved in
water prior to mixing. Fleischmann's Active Dry Yeast comes in two types
of packaging: a strip of three 1/4-oz packets and a 4-oz glass jar. "

 "Fleischmann's Rapid Rise Yeast:

 This is an instant active dry yeast. It is a highly active strain that can be
 mixed directly with dry ingredients before use. Since the yeast does not
  need to be dissolved first and only one rise is required, the process of
 baking is significantly shortened. Fleischmann's Rapid Rise Yeast is
 available in a strip of three 1/4-oz packets. "

"DESCRIPTION:
 a finely granulated, highly active instant dry yeast that hydrates and
 activates quickly does not need to be dissolved before using--best when
mixed directly into dry ingredients

     HISTORY:
 Introduced in 1984

     AVAILABLE FORM:
 Strips of three 1/4-oz packages

     DIETARY CONCERNS:
The yeast is permitted for use in gluten-free, lactose-free, corn-free,
soy-free, sugar-free, no-MSG and vegetarian diets.

     EQUIVALENTS:
 One 1/4-oz package = 2 1/4 teaspoons dry yeast

     SUBSTITUTIONS:
     One 1/4-oz package can be substituted for, or used in place of the
following:
 0.6-oz cake of Fresh Active Yeast

 Can also be used interchangeably (equal parts) with:
 Active Dry, Bread Machine or other instant yeast

There is more info on the Fleischmann's site.

Cindy/Sincgiefu


Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:44:28 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Re: Kvass and yeasties

> Although none of my sources are good "period" sources, I would assume
> (yes, I know the dangers) that wild yeasties have been around for a very
> long time.

Yeasts are one of the older lifeforms on the planet.  They were first used
to leaven bread in Egypt about 5000 years ago and were used prior to that to
make beer.

> You can make bread by just putting flour and water (a little
> sugar or honey helps) in a container and leaving it open, or preferably
> covered with thin cheesecloth.

Except in a sterilized environment, yeast spores appear to be ubiquitous.
Flour contains yeast spores which accumulated on the wheat and passed
through the milling process.  So, you can mix flour and water together in a
covered container and still get fermentation.

> Also, you never
> know what types of yeasts you are collecting and the flavors they create
> can be unpredicatable.  Sometimes new and exciting, othertimes not so
> nice.

Many yeasts appear to be localized, so that some very fine flavors can only
be created in a small geographic area.  The chief problem with collecting
wild yeast is that you also collect molds.  This has little effect on a
flour and water paste, but as you increase the sugar content of the mix,
molds are more likely to form.  I've lost a couple yeast experiments this
way.

> I know that I have seen statements about brewing mead done this way in
> period, though I can't tell you the books and sources offhand.  I am
> sure that adding some already baked bread or fermented but not baked
> dough to a brewing mixture would be a faster and more predicatable way
> to get your brew a-bubbling.  But there I go making the "they could have
> done it in period" assumption that I am so well known for.
> :-)
>
>  -Failenn

Actually, I think it may have originated as a way to keep from wasting stale
bread, although Adamantius does point out the Egyptians produced a special
bread for brewing.  Yeast dies at about 140 degrees F, so baked bread
contains no yeast internally.  The Sumerians used a barley flat bread
augmented with crushed barley for their brewing.

In period, it would be more common to leaven your dough from the ale pot
rather than boost your brew with dough, although I wouldn't put it past some
crazy brewer who had the ale pot die.

Bear


Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:13:32 -0600
From: upsxdls at okway.okstate.edu
Subject: SC - Sourdough starters

     The following starters come from "The Garden Way Bread Book: A Baker's
     Almanac" by Ellen Foscue Johnson.  Garden Way Publishing. Charlotte, VT
     05445

     #1 Flourless Potato Starter

     3 medium potatoes          4 cups water
     1 tablespoon dry yeast     3 tablespoons sugar or honey

     Cook potatoes in water until soft.  Drain, saving the water.  Mash the
     potatoes, or puree in a blender  When the cooking water has cooled to
     lukewarm, put it in a large glass, plastic or crockery bowl.  Add the other
     ingredients, including the mashed potatoes.  Stir to mix.  Cover with a
     towel, and let it sit in a warm place, not over 90 degrees, for two days or
     longer.  When the mixture is frothy and smells sour, place in a covered
     container and store in the refrigerator.

     #2 - Potato Water Starter

     1 tablespoon dry yeast     2 teaspoons sugar
     2 cups warm water in which potatoes have been cooked
     2 additional cups water    2 cups unbleached white flour

     Dissolve the yeast and sugar in the warm potato water.  Put in a glass,
     plastic, or crockery bowl; cover with towel and let it sit in a warm place
     for 48 hours.  At the end of this time stir in 2 cups warm water and 2 cups
     flour.  Cover.  Let it stand overnight or longer, until the whole mixture
     is frothy and smells sour.  Make sure your bowl is large enough to all for
     expansion.  STore in a covered jar in the refrigerator.

     #3 - Milk Starter without Yeast

     3 cups milk, whole or skim         2 cups unbleached white flour.

     Let the milk stand in a glass, plastic or crockery bowl, covered,
     twenty-four hours.  Stir in the flour, cover and let stand for several days
     in a warm place.  When the mixture is bubbly and smells sour, store in a
     covered jar in the refrigerator.  For a little extra insurance (not for the
     purist), add one tablespoon sugar and on-half tablespoon dry yeast with the
     flour.

     #4 - Raw potato starter without yeast

     1 cup warm water                   1 teaspoon honey
     1 cup unbleached white flour       1 cup raw, peeled, grated potato
                                           (about one medium large potato)

     Combine all ingredients in a plastic, glass or crockery bowl.  Cover with
     towel and let sit in a warm place for several days, until foamy and soured.
      Don't get impatient; it may take three to seven days.  Store in a covered
     jar in the refrigerator.

     #5 - Honey starter with yeast

     1 tablespoon dry yeast             2 tablespoons honey
     2 cups warm water                  2 cups unbleached white flour

     Dissolve the yeast and honey in the water in a glass, plastic or crockery
     bowl.  Stir in the flour.  Cover with a towel and lst sit in a warm place
     for several days or until foamy and soured.  Store in a covered jar in the
     refrigerator.

     These sour dough starters tend to foam and expand as the wild yeast
     beasties do their thing.  I recall I have used the raw potato starter with
     good results, but when my Herman died, I went to the health food store ad
     purchased "sourdough starter in a packet."  Now, I guess I'll try to bring
     another Herman to life.  Hope these recipes help.  Leanna of Sparrowhaven
     (upsxdls at okstate.edu)


Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 16:32:25 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - oh-oh...Totally OOP

> Hi there, Bread virgin here...
>
> I am atempting to make Sticky Buns. In the recipe it specifically calls for
> "Robin Hood SAF Yeast". So off I went shopping this a.m. and couldn't find
> this puppy anywhere to save my life. What I did get was Fleishmanns Active
> Yeast.
>
> Now, in pre-reading the recipe it states that I include the yeast right in
> with the flour, sugar, salt in a large bowl????? Add milk, butter and egg,
> knead and place in a greased bowl. And then let it stand for 1.25 hours.
>
> Okay, I may have never baked real bread since I was a kid but I have used
> yeast in the past. Don't you have to start it with sugar and water? Is SAF
> yeast something entirely different? Will putting the Fleishmanns Active
> Yeast in place of the other screw this up?
>
> Micaylah

I don't know diddly about RH SAF Yeast, but from the way the recipe is
written, it calls for a dry active yeast.

Dry active yeast can be added directly to the dry ingredients and is
supposed to activate when the liquid dissolves it.  This is sometimes done
to keep the yeast from losing potency when quickly blended with hot or cold
liquids.  Only problem, you don't know if the yeast has activated until the
dough doesn't rise.

These days, I cheat and proof the yeast with a little water and pinch of
sugar and stir it into the dry ingredients before adding the liquids.  You
really don't need the sugar, but it activates the yeast faster and better.

Bear


Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 20:15:56 EDT
From: SigridPW at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: proofing yeast

<< Now, in pre-reading the recipe it states that I include the yeast right in
 with the flour, sugar, salt in a large bowl????? Add milk, butter and egg,
 knead and place in a greased bowl.  >>

I've baked bread for years, and you may rest assured, if you follow the recipe
as it is written, it will be fine.  Dissolving yeast in warm water or milk
mixed with sugar (or "proofing" as it is called) is not necessary.  Just be
sure the milk you use is heated till warm and double check your foil packet of
yeast to be sure it is not "expired".  On some things that date is useless,
but on yeast it is dead serious!  A day later and your recipe will indoubtedly
be flat.  Happy baking!

Lady Madeleine de la Chatte Enfumee


Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:10:50 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: SC - oh-oh...Totally OOP

> Bear, Micaylah:  Watch the expiration dates on your yeast packets, they're
> fairly accurate.  I recently used up my last dab of yeast (expired 3 mos
>  ago) and opened a new jar.  The first batch did rise (finally), but not as
>  rapidly as the fresh yeast.

>  Leanna of Sparrowhaven

I buy in bulk and keep the yeast in a jar in the refrigerator.  Kept cool,
dry active yeast will keep indefinitely.  Liquid yeasts and compressed yeast
have a shorter shelf life.  I do tend to proof the yeast, so that I don't
get caught by surprise.

Bear


Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:47:16 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - once again bread

> But I have a question...I love making sour dough bread.....but to me it is
> never sour enough....can it be made sourer ? is that the proper way to say
> it even?
> Stacie

The best sourdoughs are produced by a symbiotic reaction between Candida
milleri, a strain of Saccharomyces exiguus, and Lactobacillus sanfrancisco.
The reaction does not occur with S. cerevisiae (regular bread yeast).

C. milleri strengthens the gluten and L. sanfrancisco improves the
fermentation of the maltose and provides the characteristic sourness.
Unfortunately, most of us are not in San Franciso where this combination is
readily available.

To make a sourdough starter, in a bowl, mix 2 cups of flour with one cup of
water.  Place the bowl on the counter and wait.  It does not matter whether
the bowl is covered or uncovered.  The water and the flour will activate a
natural amylase reaction to convert starch into sugar.  The yeasts present
in the flour will use the sugar to ferment the dough and create a sourdough.

Exposing the starter to the air increases the probability of gathering wild
yeasts and lactobacilli in the starter.  None of this insures a good starter
or decent sourdough.  That is the luck of the draw.  If you have problems
with bugs, tape a couple layers of cheese cloth over the starter bowl.  If
it is sealed to the sides of the bowl, it will keep most bugs out, but let
the yeasty beasties in.

In my opinion, most recipes for sourdough starter are too complex and depend
on S. cerevisiae to boost them, which defeats the idea of wild yeast and
lactobacillus.  I am considering trying a little sour cream or buttermilk to
initially boost the lactobacilli in the starter, but this introduces other
organic compounds which may be susceptible to molds and other infections.

If you have a starter.  Try leaving it on the counter and feeding it twice a
day with 1/4 cup of water and 1/2 cup of flour.  Use a big bowl, and be
ready to bake two or three times a week.  Keeping the starter on the counter
makes it more active than keeping it in the refrigerator and it needs to be
fed regularly to keep it from dying.

If the bread still isn't sour enough, try baking bread made with starter,
water, flour and salt.  Leave out the shortenings, the sweeteners, and the
yeast.  Your first rise will likely take 8 to 12 hours.  Your second rise
will take 1 to 2 hours.

Bear


Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:34:28 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - once again bread

> > The reaction does not occur with S. cerevisiae (regular bread yeast).
>
> Whose name, ironically, suggests it is, or was, in fact a brewer's
> yeast, which might help account for the phenomenon.
>
> Adamantius

Saccharomyces cerevisiae is the yeast found in ale barm.  Today's baker's
yeast is a variant of S. cerevisiae, so if you use compressed yeast or dry
active yeast to leaven your bread, you are using the equivalent of ale barm.
Most, if not all, of the top fermenting brewer's yeasts are variants of S.
cerevisiae.

Just to add to the confusion, variants of S. cerevisiae have been bred to be
bottom fermenting and these are replacing the variants of S. carlsbergensis
which were previously used in beer making.

The symbiosis between C. milleri and L.sanfrancisco occurs because C.
milleri can not use maltose, but can use all of the other sugars released by
the amylase reaction.  This leaves the maltose free to be used by L.
sanfrancisco.  Additionally, C. milleri is more resistant to the acidic
environment created by the lactobacilli than many other yeasts.  This
fortuitous combination optomizes fermentation and sourness.

Apparently, S. cerevisiae is a little wimpy in high acid environments.

Bear


Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:58:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Lorine S Horvath <lhorvath at plains.NoDak.edu>
To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: Bread & Soup

In "Food and Drink in Anglo-Saxon England"  Ann Hagen discusses drying
yeast by dipping a thread into the yeasty mixture which settles to the
bottom when making mead or beer...  Something like making candles by
dipping.  My impression was that this would result in something very like
the cakes of yeast used today, which give results not too different from
the packets...  Fiona nicAoidh


Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:16:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: cclark at vicon.net
Subject: Re: SC - Trenchers-Long

>Here is the Wroclaw Trencher receipe
> ... 2 cups thick beer
>1 cup active beer barm or 1/2 oz. active dry yeast ...

Unless this is a late period recipe (and probably even if it is), I would
assume that both the beer and the barm are ale and not lager beer. Ale yeast
is top-fermenting, which means that it produces enough gas to lift it to the
top. Lager yeast would be less useful as a leavening. Lager is also supposed
to have been made only in Bohemia until fairly late in the SCA period.

Modern bread yeasts are different varieties of the same species as ale
yeast. In period, the same yeast was used for both.

Alex Clark/Henry of Maldon


Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:03:17 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - OOP - Sucess!!

Interesting recipe.  You might want to dissolve a pinch of sugar in the
water before adding the yeast to help it along.  No need to stir the yeast
in, just sprinkle it on the water and let it dissolve.  It will sink to the
bottom, then you'll start getting a yeast colored scum on the surface.  This
is called creaming the yeast.  The more active the yeast, the more scum.

The water should be about 90 F.  Above 110 F inhibits activation and begins
killing the yeast.

A teaspoon of yeast is approximately 1 package.  I buy baker's yeast in bulk
from a healthfood store rather than the grocery for about 1/3 of the
grocery price.  Baker's supply houses are also a good place to get bulk
yeast (usually sold in 2 lb bags).  Keep your excess yeast in a jar in the
refrigerator.

As for giving away bread, I tend to bake 4 to 8 loaves at a time and spread
the wealth around.

There are four period bread recipes from the European corpus and I believe
you will find all of them in Stefan's Florilegium.  If you can't locate
them, let me know and I'll locate and send you a copy of a previous posting.

Bear


Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:25:44 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - re: SC-OOP - Sucess!

And it came to pass on 19 Feb 00,, that Marian Deborah Rosenberg wrote:

>Brighid wrote:
>> When you say that you proofed your yeast... did you actually see signs of
>>life before you continued on?  After ten minutes in warm water, the yeast
>> should be foaming noticeably.

> I can say for certain that it was warm in the kitchen as the entire
> apartment is nice and cozy warm (being on the third floor and having a
> nicely overheated office on the first floor).  I can't say for certain
> about much else as I was working with an ear infection that wouldn't let
> me sleep, and then working with an ear infection that wanted to go to
> sleep NOW halfway through my getting something started. ---

If the kitchen was warm, but you didn't get risen dough in 6 hours, then 
you probably had some dead yeast.  The next time you bake, look 
carefully for signs of life when you proof your yeast.  If you don't see 
foaming, discard the yeast/water mixture and start over with fresh yeast.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)


Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:25:44 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: RE: SC - OOP - Sucess!!

And it came to pass on 19 Feb 00,, that Decker, Terry D. wrote:
> A teaspoon of yeast is approximately 1 package.  

I thought a package was about 2-1/4 teaspoons -- a short tablespoon.

> I buy baker's yeast in
> bulk from a healthfood store rather than the grocery for anbout 1/3 of the
> grocery price.  Baker's supply houses are also a good place to get bulk
> yeast (usually sold in 2 lb bags).  Keep your excess yeast in a jar in the
> refrigerator.
[snip]

> Bear

I buy my yeast in 2-pound bags at Costco.  I keep one working 
container in the fridge, and the rest (in tightly-sealed plastic containers) 
in the freezer.  Lasts for about a year.  Sometimes the tail-end of the 
bag dies off before I can use it, but it's still much more cost-effective 
than the little envelopes, or even the little jars.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)


Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 08:15:38 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - OOP - Sucess!!

> And it came to pass on 19 Feb 00,, that Decker, Terry D. wrote: 
> > A teaspoon of yeast is approximately 1 package.  
> 
> I thought a package was about 2-1/4 teaspoons -- a short tablespoon.
> 
> Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
> Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
> mka Robin Carroll-Mann
 
The yeast they sell in strips of three packages used to be 1/4 oz. per
package.  1/4 oz of granulated dry active yeast is approximately 1 slightly
rounded teaspoon.  Two packages will give you a short tablespoon.

Bear


Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:29:53 -0700
From: "Browning, Susan W." <bsusan at corp.earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: SC - sourdough experiment #1 alternate method

I believe King Arthur Flour sells Lactobacillus SF.
http://kingarthurflour.com

Eleanor


Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:38:36 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - sourdough experiment #1 alternate method

> The starter sponge that I use isn't the San Francisco
> lactobacillus.  But it does have a strong sour taste.
> 
> My recipe is two cups of flour and one cup of flat
> beer.  I usually use rye flour and, if I am fortunate,
> I will use home brewed beer.  It takes about three
> days to start to bubble.  I usually keep it on the
> counter next to the oven.  I personally think that the
> introduction of beer gives the bread a closer flavor
> to breads that were baked using barm.
> 
> Huette

Rather than beer, I would suggest unhopped brown ale, but let's not quibble,
I've used beer for flavoring.  A rye based starter is produced by different
strains of yeast and lactobacillus than a wheat based starter and is
generally sourer than wheat based starters.

A point to remember is that the breads made with barm are primarily a
northern European thing in period although Gothic bakers brought the
technique to Rome in the 1st Century BCE.  Most southern European bakers
used leavens.

In France, the use of ale barm was considered bad practice.  At some point
using anything other than a levain was prohibited by law and remained that
way until some time in the 19th Century, if I remember the dates, when the
prohibtion was lifted so Parisian bakers could produce some of their highly
aerated breads.

If you have a good starter, you might consider drying some of it and
wrapping it in foil to give to people who are interested in trying it.

Bear


Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 07:28:39 EDT
From: CBlackwill at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - finally! A baking success! and re: honey butter

kelan at mindspring.com writes:
> Seriously does yeast just not like some people?  Is bread like gardening?
>  I don't think I'm the only one who can't get a ball of dough to do anything
>  but mock my wishes for it to rise. 

Yeast just doesn't like _you_!  :)

Seriously...what temperature are you trying to proof your bread at?  How hot 
is the water when you put the yeast into it?  How long do you give the bread 
to rise?  Is your yeast still alive?  A good way to check is by taking a 
portion of the water, adding a little of the flour and some sugar, and 
stirring your yeast into it.  Let it sit in a warm place for about 10 
minutes, and if it begins to bubble, it's alive.  This will also help your 
dough, because it sort of "kick-starts" the yeast.

Balthazar of Blackmoor


Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:24:17 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - finally! A baking success! and re: honey butter

> Seriously does yeast just not like some people?  Is bread like gardening?
> I don't think I'm the only one who can't get a ball of dough to do anything
> but mock my wishes for it to rise.  I have taught foods in high school for
> three years now and each year I teach over a hundred kids to make perfect
> yeast bread.  How can my students get perfect results and my dough resemble
> the density one would look for in oak furniture?
> 
> Nyckademus

Think kind thoughts at the miserable little yeastie beasties.  

Store yeast in a sealed container in the refrigerator. 

I assume you are using granulated dry active yeast, which is the most common
kind in the US.  One teaspoon will raise a dough containing 2 to 4 pounds of
flour, but if you are having problems, try using a teaspoon yeast to each 2
pounds or less.  One teaspoon equals a 1/4 oz. package.

Proof your yeast.  Take a cup of water at 90 to 110F put it in a bowl.
Dissolve a teaspoon of sugar in the water (not necessary, but it does
improve the action).  Sprinkle a teaspoon of yeast on the surface of the
water and let it dissolve.  Within fifteen minutes, a very active yeast will
bubble up and cover most of the surface.  Usually, the less surface are
covered, the less active the yeast.  If you can't get it to "cream", the
yeast may not be dead, but it certainly isn't very active and any rise will
be very long.  

Most non-commercial recipes use more yeast than is really needed and a rise
to doubled should take no more than 4 hours.  If you use some of the old
professional methods which use less yeast, the entire process takes much
longer, the rises are extended, while retaining a good flavor.  I usually
use the faster rise, except when making sourdoughs.

Plain bread of flour, water, yeast and salt should rise properly as long as
the dough is around 3 cups of flour to 1 cup of liquid.  Denser dough
requires more rise time to aerate and expand.

Enriched breads made with fats, sugar, eggs, milk, etc.  may not rise to
double, but often will aerate nicely, and reach proper proportions from
exuberant oven spring.

Check the percentage of protein in your flour which can be anywhere from
around 6 to 17 percent.  Most all purpose flours fall in the 9 to 11 percent
range (IIRC), which make them adequate for bread.  Flours with 13 to 17
percent are primarily commercial high-gluten flours and a bread bakers
dream.  Below 9 percent, the flours are better suited for cakes and
pastries.  From previous discussions, there are some all purpose flours
available in the deep south which fall below 9 percent.  

Check your kneading technique. Under-kneading and over-kneading can affect
the rise and the density of the bread.

Bon Chance

Bear


Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 05:42:45 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - finally! A baking success! and re: honey butter

> You may also be wary of your salt usage.  It is a yeast inhibitor of
> sorts, and its over use can certainly affect the environment the little
> fellas like to live in.
> 
> niccolo
 
On the otherhand, salt strengthens the gluten.  You should be able to add as
much as a tablespoon of salt to 2 pounds of flour without seriously
impacting the yeast.

Bear


Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 04:42:14 EDT
From: CBlackwill at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Small Beer?

mermayde at juno.com writes:
> It's two cups of sugar. And it's also a good idea to use just plain old 
>  Fleishman's Baking Yeast. I tried making it with Champagne yeast and it
>  came out bitter.

Another advantage to using baking yeast in a low/non-alcoholic brew is that 
baking yeast will die off at lower alcohol levels.  However, since we are on 
the subject, "Eagle" brand baking yeast (professional yeast) is composed of 
nothing less the sachromyces cerivicea (sp?), or our tried and true ale 
yeast.  I have used it to make ales, and have been marginally satisfied with 
the results.  While there has never been a "bready" flavor, it does fizzle 
out at lower alcohol levels (about 3.8 to 4.3 percent in my experiments).  

Balthazar of Blackmoor


Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 09:20:15 -0400
From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Small Beer?

> Nope, the recipe very specifically states Fleishman's, and now that I
> went back looking for it, guess who posted it?
> Christianna
<snippo> 
> It's two cups of sugar. And it's also a good idea to use just plain old 
> Fleishman's Baking Yeast. I tried making it with Champagne yeast and it
> came out bitter.
> 
> Glad you like the recipe.

POPPA!!!  Poppa said this?
Poppa, 
I think judging all brewing/vintning yeasts by champagne is a bit 
premature...

"Premier cuvee" yeast, which I suggested is a "sweeter" yeast than 
Champagne, which is a very specialized yeast designed to ferment 
out as dry as possible, so it is used for dry and high alcohol wines.
Champagne is also not able to use table sugar very well, and so has 
to produce more enzymes to breake sucrose into simple sugars, and 
these enzymes add bitterness.  
Premier cuvee is the one that seems to get distributed with those
"make your own soda" kits that use Table sugar, and is the one that 
is frequently sent in most of the "sweet" wine kits, like "raspberry merlot".

That is why I recommended it for this purpose. 
I think you should at least give it a try.

brandu


Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:21:48 -0500 
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Small Beer?

> since we are on  the subject, "Eagle" brand baking yeast (professional yeast) 
> is composed of nothing less the sachromyces cerivicea (sp?), or our tried 
> and true ale yeast. 
> 
> Balthazar of Blackmoor

Saccharomyces cerevisiae.  

Pliny first noted the use of barm for leavening bread by the Germanic
tribes.  Because S. cerevisiae is top fermenting, it the active yeast can be
skimmed from the surface of the ale pot.  Three of the four known period
bread recipes use barm for the yeast.

Bear


Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:41:22 -0500 
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - yeast/alcohol was: small beer?

> I could be wrong, though, but I seem to recall that 
> the yeast is cultured to enhance its carbon-dioxide production qualities over 
> its alcohol production.
> 
> Balthazar of Blackmoor

You are correct.  Modern baker's yeast is cultivated to improve the
carbon-dioxide production and reduce the alcohol production.  It improves
both the rise and flavor of the bread.  It also makes the yeast less tolerant
of acid environments.

Bear


Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 20:08:16 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Collecting Yeast from Birch Trees
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I seem to remember that this question came up before. The early birch
wine recipes
(used Cindy's book to start) all seem to add yeast to the sap. Nothing
is said about yeast coming off a birch tree there. I don't find it
listed in E. David's English Bread and Yeast Cookery in the full rundown
she has on yeast. Maybe they meant that sometimes the sap ferments on
its own without the addition of yeast. Sap might do that, although what
you end up with is ???

I did an involved Google search and turned this up---
A Handbook of Anglo-Saxon Food & Drink:
Processing and Consumption and Production & Distribution
one review mentions this--

   One of my favorite bits: the Saxons would dip birch twigs in liquid
yeast, hang dry, and store it that way -- their equivalent of today's
modern yeast packets.

Might this be the source?

Johnnae llyn Lewis


Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:00:03 -0400
From: Avraham haRofeh <avrahamharofeh at herald.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] barm for bread
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> I'll be looking at your blog with keen interest  -- as I too want to try
> my hand at using beer barm for breadmaking.  So just what is barm?  Where
> in the beer making process is it taken from?  How much did you get, and
> will you be able to sustain it for some time?

Barm is the floating, yeast-laden foam on the top of the beer (or other
fermentable). It would be skimmed off just before the beer was racked the
first time. Barm, dried and crumbled into powder, was the first "baker's
yeast".
****************
Reb Avraham haRofeh
      (mka Randy Goldberg MD)


From: Katja <katjaorlova at yahoo.com>
Date: May 19, 2004 7:57:15 PM CDT
To: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [sca-ae-cooks] Links: The Staff of Life

Funnily enough, I discovered something just last week regarding medieval leavening that you might find interesting.

While perusing Dawson's fine cakes recipe from The
good huswifes Iewell, I noticed the instruction "and a
little Gods good about a sponfull if you put in too
much they shall arise..."

Curious, I looked up the phrase "God's good" in the
OED and discovered that one of the archaeic meanngs of
the phrase is barm or yeast. :)

toodles, Katja


Date: Wed,  5 Jan 2005 13:46:48 -0500
From: "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1 at iconn.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Stefan finaly succeeds in making cider
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Is "Wyeast" the name of a company?

Yes
It is one of the largest suppliers in the US for live Brewing and 
vinting yeast cultures.

Most home brew stores stock a refrigerator full of their products
http://www.wyeastlab.com/

Capt Elias
-Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas


Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:51:49 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Barm yeast
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Martinsen at ansteorra.org wrote:
> Here's a question: I have a starter made from beer barm. (flour, water
> & barm only).  Now when a recipe calls for barm, (and it is a
> bread-type dish, would using my starter be acceptable, or should I
> start with fresh barm?
> Has anyone worked out a ratio for how much "sediment" should be used
> to how much flour?  How about starter?  I know it depends on how stiff
> your starter is, how lively it is, so I'm guessing the answer is no.
> 
> BVitha

My guess is that this is going to be a matter of trial and error.
It's gonna depend on how active your starter is. Some are fast;
some are slow. It also varies to how warm the kitchen is and
what the weather is like on the day of preparation. I've always
found I had to play with all my sourdough mixtures on the day of baking.

I discovered through the years that it's sometimes better to
use fresh yeast and a bottle of ale when making recipes like
the great cakes found in Martha Washington's Booke of Cookery
which require "A full quart of Ale barme".
One gets better results that could be duplicated and it meant I could
construct a recipe that didn't involve making an ale barm to start.
You might check out
http://www.sourdo.com/culture.htm  and see what Ed Wood has to say
there about his various starters.

Johnnae


Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 08:52:03 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Barm yeast
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Sediment?  Whachoo want sediment for?  Proper barm is taken from the top of
an active ale pot where the top fermenting S. cerevisiae bubbles merrily
along.  S. cerevisiae is the yeasty beast found in baker's yeast or brewer's
yeast.  If you're doing beer, that is usually S. carlsbergensis (sic?) and
is bottom fermenting.  It will work, but it is not the barm being discussed
in the recipes.  There are some 18th and 19th Century recipes for washing
sediment to extract yeast, so it may be that any malt liquor was fair game
later on.

With a starter, you use about one cup for one to two pounds of flour, replacing one cup of the liquor [liquid] in the recipe.  Using a barm, I would do the
same, replacing one cup of water with one cup of barm for one to two pounds
of flour.  The first rise may take anywhere from 2 to 12 hours, depending on
the potency of the yeasty beasties.  The second rise will be faster.

With a very stiff starter (like the dough balls the French use), you would
pull of a chunk weighing six to eight ounces and break it apart in the
liquor to help scatter the yeast through the dough.  Again, roughly a cup
for one to two pounds of flour.

You may want to modify the amount of starter you use as you get a feel for
how your starter works.

Best of luck on the project.

Bear


Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:24:37 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Barm yeast
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> So I don¹t want to be using the "dredges" from when my brewer friend racks
> his carboy?  I want instead the bubbles from the top?  Sorry...I'm not a
> brewer....
>
> The starter I have running right now I made from sediment that I dried out
> and then "reconsitituted" about 3 months later.  It is working well -  made
> 2 loaves from it.
>
> Vitha

Actually, I was quibbling about your terminology and just pointing out that
there are distinct differences between beer and ale yeasts and that it was
top fermenting ale yeast that is commonly used for baking.  The dry active
yeasts you get at the grocery are all developed from ale yeast,
Saccharomyces cerevisiae.  If you are working with an ale, then skimming the
top of an active fermentation should produce a good barm for bread.  A
bottom fermenting beer would be best siphoned from the bottom of the
fermentation where the yeast is most active although you could probably get
enough yeast by skimming the top.

In either case, barm is "the yeasty foam that rises to the surface of malt
liquors."  Barm is not sediment.  And for bakers from Pliny to the
Renaissance, barm meant top fermenting ale barm.   You might talk to your
brewing friends about setting up a simple ale pot with a wide neck for
dipping (a one gallon jar perhaps) using malt extract and brewers yeast.
It's inexpensive, so if the experiment fails you aren't out much and it can
be repeated as necessary.  The ale produced is usually a mediocre drink, but
that wouldn't be the object of the exercise.

As for your starter, that's good work.  It is not an experiment I have
tried, so please keep me posted on how it is doing.

Bear


Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 09:41:59 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] How long does bread keep (was Was bread
	served warm?)
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> I've also found that the type of yeast makes a difference. Bread made with
> brewer's yeast keeps much better than bread made with commercial bread
> yeast.  Based on this, it seems to be worth considering that in period
> bread that was several days old might have been quite tasty.
>
> -Katherine

Brewer's yeast and bread yeast are both Saccharomyces cerevisiae, so there
is no difference in the base yeast.  What you are seeing is a difference in
crumb density.  A lighter crumb (more aeration) tends to give up moisture
faster than a dense crumb.  Commercial bread yeast is selectively grown from
strains that produce more CO2 to produce a lighter crumb, but that doesn't
preclude any given brewer's yeast from being more active than a commercial
bread yeast (I've encountered this a few times, probably as a result of
shelf life or storage).

You can more effectively control the aging of the bread by the size of the
loaf and the flour mixture.

Bear


Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 22:16:54 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Observation on Leavenings
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Making a few loaves of whole wheat bread, and experimenting a little.
>
> One set was made with yeast from a local brewer's recent endeavors,  
> and the other with my starter.
>
> Interestingly enough here in the cold months the sourdough was very very
> slow, but the yeast was quite perky, much like using regular yeast.
>
> I ponder this, is it true that the northern countries used a primarily ale
> barm starter for breads, while lower (aka warmer) countries used dough
> starters?
>
> Simon Hondy

You are probably seeing the difference between a normal starter and a fresh
active yeast.  It is fairly common to use coolers to slow the rise of yeast
breads, while allowing sourdoughs to rise at room temperature, because of
the difference in the activity.

The common view (to which I subscribe) is Northern Europe tended to use
yeast in the form of ale barm while the area around the Mediterranean where
wine was the common beverage used sourdough.  Note that the use of yeast or
starter is not geographically exclusive, but a tendency reinforced by
climate.  Ale doesn't do well in warmer climes.

The Egyptians are the first people known to make leavened bread and from the
little we know, it was sourdough.  Dupaigne disagrees, stating that the
Egyptians used ale barm, but doesn't provide any evidence to support the
claim.  It is possible that the Egyptians used both methods of leavening

There are Roman recipes which use fermented grape must as leavening.  To my
knowledge, the earliest record of ale barm being used to leaven bread is a
description in Pliny about the Vandals method of making bread.  Yeast breads
were probably being prepared by Gallic bakers in Italy by the time of
Pliny's death in 71 CE (based on some of the finds from Pompeii, and
information from David and Toussaint-Samat).

The period English bread recipes use ale barm, which appears to have been
the favored method into the 19th Century.  Platina, on the otherhand,
describes bread made from a dough starter.  Dupaigne states that during the
Middle Ages, natural starters were the standard in France until the 17th
Century, when a mix of yeast and starter came into use.  From other sources,
I gather that starter was required by law in France until the developement
of the baguette (which requires a very active yeast).  Again Dupaigne
provides little documentation and I have yet to find when the French limited
breadmaking to natural starter.  The evidence suggests that ale drinking
regions used ale barm and wine drinking regions used starters.  I still
don't have a copy of that French text on Baking and Bakers in the Middle
Ages (IIRC), so my answers may lie there.

Bear


Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 22:41:29 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fermentation Sponge Question
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

For the sponge, the gluten content shouldn't matter.  Sponges are meant to
feed yeast growth, which means the available sugars are more important than
the gluten.  When you use the sponge to leaven a batch of bread the gluten
level of the flour becomes an issue.  If you wanted to boost a sponge, I
think a teaspoon of diamalt added to the flour would do more than the  
gluten level of the flour.

Bear

> Does anyone have experience in whether starting the sponge with certain
> kinds of flour determine what kind of sponge it will ultimately become?
> For example using a lower gluten flour versus a higher gluten flour.
>
> Aldyth


Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 22:55:14 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fermentation Sponge Question
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Point of terminology:  a sponge is an initial dough created from flour and
some form of leaven.  It is usually used within 24 hours.  A starter is a
leaven that is continually replenished, which can be used to leaven a
sponge.

Bear


Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 21:53:59 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] yeast reservoirs?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> In the thread on pretzels, Master Cariadoc mentioned:
>
> <<< Note 3: The recipe is for a leavened bread, but
> no leavening is mentioned. My guess is that it is
> using either sourdough or a kneading trough with
> its own yeast culture. I used sourdough. >>>
>
> Interesting point about the impregnated kneading trough and a good
> thing to keep in mind when wondering if a bread is leavened or not.
>
> Anybody ever used one of these kneading troughs or something similar,
> long enough that it might become a reservoir for some yeast and then
> found that the new dough would pick up enough yeast from the trough
> that it would affect the dough?
>
> Thanks,
>   Stefan

While I've never experimented with a wooden dough trough, other experiences
suggest that if you exploited a yeast culture embedded in a wooden dough
trough, it would probably take a couple of days to get enough yeast to
produce a decent rise.  A cup or two of dough left in the trough to  act as a
starter would be more practical and , in the case of a commercial baker,
provides greater control and consistency (although the commercial starter
would probably be closer to 5 pounds than two cups).  Leavening a lot of
dough with a miniscule amount of yeast is largely a matter of technique,
temperature and time.

Bear


Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 18:58:20 -0500
From: "Michelle LR" <melbrigda at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Yest resevoirs
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Written was:
Anybody ever used one of these kneading troughs or something similar,
long enough that it might become a reservoir for some yeast and then
found that the new dough would pick up enough yeast from the trough
that it would affect the dough?

Answering thusly:
I haven't, but my grandmother and her mother both did.  Both of them had
these old wooden bowls that were large and shallow.  There was always flour
in them.  My greatgrandmother left her bowl out on the counter open with a
dish cloth draped over it.  My grandmother wrapped her bowl in a plastic bag
and stored it under the counter.  Neither of them ever bought much yeast,
yet they made bread almost on a daily basis.  I lived with my grandmother
for several years and I remember asking about the yeast.  I was told it
wasn't needed because it was already there.  Rarely did we have "stone
bread" (as we called it) that didn't rise.

Interestingly enough, they used these same bowls to also make biscuits and  
dumplings using baking soda and buttermilk.  They would change from whole wheat to white flour interchangeably and even rye on occaission.  My biscuits could  
be used as ballistics in a seige battle and I've always blamed it on not  
having one of those bowls.  :)
-- 
Mel.


Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 10:18:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Yeast reservoirs
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Bear says:
> While I've never experimented with a wooden dough trough, other experiences
> suggest that if you exploited a yeast culture embedded in a wooden dough
> trough, it would probably take a couple of days to get enough yeast to
> produce a decent rise.  A cup or two of dough left in the trough to act as a
> starter would be more practical and , in the case of a commercial baker,
> provides greater control and consistency (although the commercial starter
> would probably be closer to 5 pounds than two cups).  Leavening a lot of
> dough with a miniscule amount of yeast is largely a matter of technique,
> temperature and time.

Many Italian bread recipes of today that I have found refer to a  
"lievito madre" (leavening mother), which is a bit of the leavened  
dough kept from the previous batch of bread. In Sicily they call this  
a criscenti. Seems logical that in a time when bread needed to be  
baked every day in the palazzo kitchens to feed the household, the  
baker kept a lievito madre or criscenti goimg at all times in the  
kneading trough or taken out and set aside in a bowl for the next  
day's baking. And it would be such a matter of course that it may not  
be mentioned in the recipes.

Is "lievito madre" is a period term? Admittedly I have not done any  
real research into period Italian bread to know, therefore I'm  
throwing this one to the list.

Gianotta


Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 00:03:43 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Yeast reservoirs
To: "Christiane" <christianetrue at earthlink.net>,	"Cooks within the
	SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I can't address the history of the term "lievito madre," but from your
description, it refers to a continuous starter rather than a "biga" which is
a one use starter or sponge.  The practice of the maintaining a starter is a
long-standing tradition in much of the Mediterranean, where starters were
more common that baker's yeast until the Modern era.  In France and Italy,
the starter will normally be a ball of dough rather than the semi-liquid
starter you are likely to find in the US.  The technique with which I am
familiar is to break the dough starter apart in the liquor, so that it will
be spread through the new batch of dough and expedite yeast production in
the dough.  I normally use 1 cup of starter for one to two pounds of bread,
but you can get away with half that amount if you extend the first rise.
The size of the dough ball you reserve is dependent upon the quantity of
bread one needs to bake.  From limited descriptions of the starters,
commercial bakers retain five to ten pounds of dough as starter.

For large establishments, baking would more likely be done in a seperate
bakehouse rather than the kitchens and you might be baking bread every
second or third day rather than daily depending on the number of people in
the household.

Bear

> Many Italian bread recipes of today that I have found refer to a  "lievito
> madre" (leavening mother), which is a bit of the leavened dough kept from
> the previous batch of bread. In Sicily they call this a criscenti.  Seems
> logical that in a time when bread needed to be baked every day in the
> palazzo kitchens to feed the household, the baker kept a lievito madre or
> criscenti goimg at all times in the kneading trough or taken out and set
> aside in a bowl for the next day's baking. And it would be such a matter
> of course that it may not be mentioned in the recipes.
>
> Is "lievito madre" is a period term? Admittedly I have not done any real
> research into period Italian bread to know, therefore I'm throwing  
> this one to the list.
>
> Gianotta


Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 07:19:57 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Yeast reservoirs
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I came across good drawings of a farm bakehouse and a dough trough over the weekend in Food in England. If you search under dough trough in Google images,
there are a number of images that can be found.

Johnnae

<<< For large establishments, baking would more likely be done in a separate
bakehouse rather than the kitchens and you might be baking bread every
second or third day rather than daily depending on the number of people in
the household.

Bear >>>


Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 13:43:16 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Salt Rising Bread
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Salt rising bread is a sourdough bread made from a spontaneously leavened
batter created about 8 to 24 hours before making bread, rather than from a
continuously maintained starter.  Unlike a continuous starter which should
only contain water and flour, these batters often have milk and sugar added
to them to feed the the leven.

The earliest recipe I have in my collection is from 1879 (Tyree, ed.,
Housekeeping in Old Virginia):

Salt-Risen Bread

Make into a thin batter:
  1 pint of flour.
1 tablespoonful of corn meal.
Half-teaspoonful of salt.

Set in a warm place to rise.  After it has risen, pour into it two quarts of
flour, with sufficient warm water to mke up a loaf of bread.  Work it well,
set it to rise again, and when risen sufficiently, bake it.---Mrs. T.  
L. J.

I question the accuracy of the claim that the leavening is by C.
perfringens.  In my opinion, the leavening bacteria are more likely to be
members of Lactobacillus as in the case of normal sourdough.  As with
sourdoughs, any of the organisms in the batter are likely to vary with
location.  I would like to see a microbiological analysis of the batter
before accepting any statements about how the bread is leavened.

These batters are probably not Medieval in origin.  To my knowledge,
Medieval starters were kept as balls of dough, batters being more easily
infected by mold than the more solid continuous starters.   From experience
(and having read a number of different recipes for salt rising bread), I
think that the batter leavens are a response to mold infections in starters
that weren't used daily, but I have no direct evidence to support my
position.

"Salt rising" is something of a misnomer.  The function of the salt  
is not to leaven the bread, but to slow and even out the rise.

Bear

>  On one of my left turns associated with my paper on bread, I came across a
> reference to salt rising bread, leavened with the bacterium Clostridium
> perfringens.  All I have been able to find so far is that this seems to be
> an american bread.  I am not particularly pushing it to be period, but  could
> this have happened in period?  Like most of the recipes I have found, it seems
> to have "appeared".
>
> Aldyth


Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:54:22 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bread Yeasts
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Sure, and it is probably correct, except that rather than beer the yeast is
taken from ale.  Bakers yeast is Saccharomyces cerevisiae, the top
fermenting yeast used in ale.  S. carlbergensis is usually used making beer
and is bottom fermenting.  Baker's yeast was taken from the barm on the top
of the ale pot.  The first reference to this practice can be found in  
Pliny.

The practice does not hold with sourdough breads where a combination of
yeast, usually some variety of Candida, and lactobacilli are the  
leavening agents.

Until the 19th Century, when yeast started being packaged for sale by
grocers, home bakers would often buy yeast for baking from brewers.  Even
today, most of the packaged yeast for baking is produced by subsidiary
operations of major breweries.

Bear

> from another list that I monitor, there is a suggestion that brewerys and
> bakerys in the Abby were located close together and further suggested that
> the wort: juice from unfermented beer mash:(what we called 'squeezins')
> was used as yeast for the making of bread.
>
> Anybody ever hear of this?
>
> Anybody ever try it?
>
> Malkin
> Otherhill
> Artemisia


Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:42:59 -0800
From: Susan Fox <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bread Yeasts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Kimberly Vallance wrote:
> Out of curiosity I have a place close by that sells brewers yeast... is
> that usable in bread... 

If it's a health food store, selling Brewers Yeast as a supplement, then
no, you can't use it.  The yeast is lightly killed and taken for its
B-Vitamin and mineral value, but is won't grow.

If it's from a Brewing store, what the heck, go for it.

Selene


Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:47:08 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bread Yeasts
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I often use Brewers Yeast from the health food store.  What I get is a dry
active yeast sold in bulk and stored under refrigeration.  It can be used as
a supplement or for baking, but it is not sold specifically as a commercial
supplement.

Bear

> If it's a health food store, selling Brewers Yeast as a supplement, then
> no, you can't use it.  The yeast is lightly killed and taken for its
> B-Vitamin and mineral value, but is won't grow.
>
> If it's from a Brewing store, what the heck, go for it.
>
> Selene


Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 13:15:36 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] German Breads
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Commercial yeast are grown in molasses, they are adapted for using
> the easy food they get from sugars and don't do well in the long run.
> The wild yeasts are adapted to a different food source (the grain).

What's your source for wild yeasts growing on grain?

To my knowledge, all yeasts use sugars for food.  The yeasts we have been
discussing all feed on simple sugars and can not directly feed on grain.
They can't even directly use the primary sugar in the molasses, sucrose.
However, in commercial manufacture, the initial prue yeast infusion is fed
on molasses malt to kickstart the process.

Commercial yeasts have been bred to produce varying quantities of alcohol
and CO2, but they eat the same sugars as wild yeasts of the same species.

> There has been a lot of argument over this in the sourdough community
> and the scientific arena. However, at least a few of the
> microorganisms (and possibly the yeast that occurs naturally in
> flour) appear to produce amylase (a starch degrading enzyme) and
> maltase (an enzyme that breaks down complex sugars to simple sugars).
> Though it is possible that these enzymes are also of plant origin and
> may occur in the grain naturally, they definitely are produced in the
> grain if it is germinated (that's part of the reason for malting
> grain, to make these enzymes available for mashing and brewing).

Grains have an outer coating bran which consists of a number of things that
can't be converted to sugars.  The outermost layer is called the aleurone
layer consisting of a complex protein, aleurone.  Among the things in the
aleurone are hydrolytic enzymes and the triggers for releasing them,
including diastase (alpha amylase).  So there is no question that the
enzymes in question are of plant origin and occur naturally in grain.
Comparisons of fermentation between high and low alpha amylase flours
demonstrates that some of the grain enzymes are released in fermentation.
That almost certainly enhances the yeast enzyme production, which  
tends to be rather slow.

During germination, gibberellin hormones trigger the release of the enzymes
to break down the starch in the endosperm, so that it can be used by the
plant embryo, which is why malting works the way it does.  Malting is
usually associated with beta amylase production.

If anyone is interested, Lallemand (a yeast manufacturer) has quite a bit of
information on measuring and standardizing enzyme levels in flour at
http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_15ENFL.PDF .
One tidbit they mentioned (that I vaguely remember from long ago, that means
more now than it did then) is that most breadmaking flours have .25 percent
malted barley of wheat flour added.  The enzymes are ready to go and the
starch conversion has already started in these flours (and it should be
noted on the label).  Such a flour should give a nice kick to a sourdough
starter.

>> nor does it usually grow on the
>> grain kernals.  If they did, they would attack the flour  
>> immediately after milling.
>
> Yeast require a relatively large quantity of water to survive in
> their active state, there is not enough moisture for this to occur in
> the grain or the resulting flour. Even with relatively "green" grain.

Water is a requirement of the hydrolytic enzymes that produce the sugars on
which yeast feed.  If it was simply that yeast need water, then they should
be cheerfully chomping away on the rice in every rice paddy in the world.
Oh, and that pesky bran layer that gets in the way.

>> Yeast spores settle on the grain and are processed through with
>> the wheat into the flour, which is why you can cover a bowl of  
>> starter with plastic and it will still ferment.
>
> Yeast are anaerobic organisms, they do not require oxygen except for
> reproduction. While you feed a starter, a sufficient quantity of
> oxygen is usually mixed into the slurry to enable the synthesis of
> protein and the budding of new yeast cells. Once they enter the
> fermentation stage, the yeast can survive just fine without oxygen

It is immaterial to this argument whether they are anaerobic or not.  The
point is that there are yeast spores that go through flour milling and are
in the flour we purchase.  You can work in a totally sterile environment,
but if you make a starter in that environment with off the shelf flour, it
will likely be "alive!"

BTW, aerobic fermentation promotes yeast growth while anaerobic  
fermentation increase the output of alcohol and CO2.

<clipped>
>> I have encountered an interesting statement that I have yet to check out,
>> that the yeast in San Francisco sourdough is now named Candida humilis,
>> previously C. milleri, and originally identified as Saccharomyces exiguus.
>
> Again, genome sequencing needs to be done to determine if it is a
> unique species, I'm not too hung up on that part of it really. It may
> be unique, it may not. I think the difference in results that are
> achieved have more to do with the way the starters are grown and
> maintained than anything else.
>
> Dragon

You don't consider the Stanford Yeast Genome Database extensive enough?
Usually, it's a problem of finding the right paper.

Checking Doctor Fungus shows C. humilis, C. milleri, and S. exiguus as
seperate species and they still appear that way in some recent papers.  It
may be that there is a move afoot to consolidate them taxonomically, but
that hasn't occurred, as yet.

Understanding the particular yeast/lactobacilli combination of a given
starter is a key to optimizing the maintanence of the starter.  Also, it
might make it possible to seed and maintain starters with specific
characteristics.

Bear


Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:51:26 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Arts and Sciences; bread
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Mar 31, 2009, at 5:39 PM, Johnna Holloway wrote:
<<< I use a dry yeast and a bottle of ale when I make these sorts
of recipes.

Johnnae >>>

I'd tend to agree that active dry yeast (which, remember, is still an  
active yeast culture which, when moistened, is no longer dry) is a  
perfectly good source of the same yeast you'd get from a top- 
fermenting ale. And given the percentage of non-yeast ale-related  
chemicals found in the aggregate dough mass once you use it for bread,  
the finished product probably shouldn't taste particularly like beer

I'm not sure that adding even the bottle of ale is, strictly speaking,  
necessary to get the effect. Either way, the yeasts are still going to  
be breaking down a little of the starches and sugars found in the  
flour, and producing much the same metabolic byproducts.

Adamantius, sticking his two-cent oar in... 


Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:58:05 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Arts and Sciences; bread
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I don't know that it has that it lends that much ale taste. I use it in that
yeasted great cake recipe. The original recipe calls for a full quart of ale
barm for a peck of flour.
(Truth be told--people like the idea that it has ale in it, I think.)

Johnnae

Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
<<< I'd tend to agree that active dry yeast (which, remember, is still an 
active yeast culture which, when moistened, is no longer dry) is a 
perfectly good source of the same yeast you'd get from a 
top-fermenting ale. And given the percentage of non-yeast ale-related 
chemicals found in the aggregate dough mass once you use it for bread, 
the finished product probably shouldn't taste particularly like beer.
I'm not sure that adding even the bottle of ale is, strictly speaking, 
necessary to get the effect. Either way, the yeasts are still going to 
be breaking down a little of the starches and sugars found in the 
flour, and producing much the same metabolic byproducts. >>>


Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 01:22:57 -0400
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] rich yeasted cake
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Johnna Holloway wrote:
<<< That should work. Yeast depends on the packet.
From the Red Star website
A 1/4 -ounce packet of active dry yeast contains approximately 2-1/2 teaspoons; the measurement will not be exact as yeast is packaged according to weight rather than volume. A packet of yeast is sufficient to raise 4 cups, approximately 1-pound, of flour. >>>

Ooh, heck, I use one packet of yeast for a *lot* more than 4 cups of flour...
-----------

Yeast is alive.  A vigorous starter is much better than using the dry yeast straight.  If I'm doing a lot of baking, the night before, I'll take a packet and make a starter with water and flour, then feed the starter more flour and water a time or two.   I don't use more than one packet, even for dozens of loaves.  I don't bake often enough to keep a starter going, but that would be the period answer.

Ranvaig


Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 23:00:55 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] rich yeasted cake
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< I don't bake often enough to keep a starter going, but that would be 
the period answer.

Ranvaig >>>

It's not that hard. A jar of sourdough starter will last in the 
refrigerator for a long time with no attention--I'm sure I've left 
mine unused for more than a month on multiple occassions. The trick 
is to then spend about three days getting it lively before you use it.

1 c flour + 1c water + 1/2c starter, leave 24 hours at room temperature.

1 c flour + 1c water + 1/2c starter (from the above), leave 24 hours 
at room temperature.

1 c flour + 1c water + 1/2c starter, leave 12 hours at room temperature.

Repeat. Repeat, leaving 6 hours this time, and use it.

I think that's the sequence I've been using, although I may have put 
in one too many 12 hour steps.

Works very well for bread. A bit wasteful, since at each stage you 
are throwing out the surplus of the starter you made--unless you have 
friends who would like some starter of their own.
-- 
David/Cariadoc


Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:10:41 +1200
From: Antonia Calvo <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] rich yeasted cake
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< Yeast is alive.  A vigorous starter is much better than using the dry yeast straight.  If I'm doing a lot of baking, the night before, I'll take a packet and make a starter with water and flour, then feed the starter more flour and water a time or two.   I don't more than one packet, even for dozens of loaves.  I don't bake often enough to keep a starter going, but that would be the period answer. >>>

I've made starter that way, but I often kick-start yeast with a little 
malt syrup-- yeast *loves* maltose. 
-- 
Antonia di Benedetto Calvo


Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 23:58:38 -0400
From: "Kingstaste" <kingstaste at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Wild Fermentation Book
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Yeah, familiar with his book, and have heard him speak in person.  He is
very passionate about his subject, and has some very good ideas for how to
make it work.  The book is colorful with lots of pics.  
Christianna

-----Original Message-----
Is anyone familiar with this book?
Wild Fermentation: The Flavor, Nutrition, and Craft of Live-Culture Foods
(Paperback)by Sandor Ellix Katz  (Author), Sally Fallon (Foreword)

ISBN-13: 978-1931498234
Chelsea Green Publishing Company (September 2003)

Aldyth


Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 21:54:09 -0700
From: Susan Fox <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Wild Fermentation Book
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Yes, I like it very much.  It makes the whole subject very accessible.   
I use the basic pickle recipe frequently and I'm about to do the 
sauerkraut again for an upcoming weenie roast.  No SCA-usable 
documentation, but he demystifies the whole thing because he's tried out 
every recipe in there.  Also, he answers his own email and conducts 
workshops on the east coast.

Selene

Deborah Hammons wrote:
<<< Is anyone familiar with this book?
Wild Fermentation: The Flavor, Nutrition, and Craft of Live-Culture Foods
(Paperback)by Sandor Ellix Katz  (Author), Sally Fallon (Foreword)

ISBN-13: 978-1931498234
Chelsea Green Publishing Company (September 2003)

Aldyth >>>


Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 21:54:59 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Leven: yeast or sourdough?

Berme is Middle English for barm, so your assumption is essentially correct. 
It is not beer residue, but the active fermentation from the top of the ale 
pot.  S. cerevisiae, brewers or bakers yeast, is a top fermenter while most 
beer yeasts are bottom fermenters.

In general, beer drinking regions use ale barm for leavening while other 
areas tend to sourdough.  The earliest reference (that I have located) to 
using ale barm is found in Pliny.  Imperial Rome is an exception in that 
after the Gallic Wars the practice of using ale barm for leavening move from 
Gaul into Rome and other parts of Italy.  Other than that, most 
Mediterranean countries leaven with sourdough.  At some point, which I have 
not yet determined, France required all bakers to leaven with sourdough, the 
law being changed at some point in the 20tgh Century.  I would have to dig 
for the references, but I think Toussaint-Samat gives a basic Francocentric 
interpretation of the expansion of baking and Michael Grant gives other 
details in his works.  There is a smattering of French baking law in 
Boulanger (IIRC).  Most of the information on the subject is in snippets 
scattered among works on other subjects.

Sourdough is the product of an environmental created symbiosis between a 
yeast (often on of the Candida) and some variety of lactobacillus.  The 
actual combinations are very localized and vary widely in rise and sour 
taste.

Bear

<<< Recipes frequently don't say--and if they do refer to yeast, especially in 
a translation, the word might actually mean sourdough. I gather that 
sourdough, technically, is not yeast but a different organism with similar 
effects, but even assuming that's right, there is no reason to expect 
people in period to know.

Our working assumption is that "berme" means yeast from beer residue and 
that otherwise the leven is beer yeast in beer drinking areas, sourdough 
in areas that don't drink beer, including the Islamic world. But I don't 
think we have any really solid evidence on the subject--does anyone else?
-- 
David/Cariadoc >>>


Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 08:12:58 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Leven: yeast or sourdough?

OED on barm defines it as
"1. a. The froth that forms on the top of fermenting malt liquors,  
which is used to leaven bread, and to cause fermentation in other  
liquors; yeast, leaven."

And there's a quotation attributed to Pliny but it's slightly different:

1601 HOLLAND Pliny II. 145 The froth or barme..[has] a property to  
keepe the skin faire and cleare in womens faces.

Johnna

On Oct 10, 2010, at 10:54 PM, Terry Decker wrote:
 <<< The earliest reference (that I have located) to using ale barm is  
found in Pliny. >>>


Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 06:57:21 -0700
From: "Daniel Myers" <dmyers at medievalcookery.com>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Leven: yeast or sourdough?

-------- Original Message --------
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Recipes frequently don't say--and if they do refer to yeast, 
especially in a translation, the word might actually mean sourdough. 
I gather that sourdough, technically, is not yeast but a different 
organism with similar effects, but even assuming that's right, there 
is no reason to expect people in period to know.

Our working assumption is that "berme" means yeast from beer residue 
and that otherwise the leven is beer yeast in beer drinking areas, 
sourdough in areas that don't drink beer, including the Islamic 
world. But I don't think we have any really solid evidence on the 
subject--does anyone else?
------------

While most of the recipes I've seen either call for "yeast" or "barm",
there are some that specifically call for "ale yeast" or "beer yeast". 
The following three are good examples:

19 - To make bisket bread, otherwise called French bisket. Take halfe a
peck of fine flower, two ounces of coriander seeds, one ounce of anni
seeds, the white of foure eggs, half a pinte of Ale-yeast, and as much
water as will make it up into stiffe paste; your water must be but bloud
warm: then bake it in a longroll as big as your thigh: let it stay in
the oven but one houre, and wne it is a day old pare it and slice it
overthwart: then sugar it over with fine powdred sugar, and so dry it in
an oven again: and being dry, take it out, and sugar it again: then box
it, and so may keep it all the yeere.  [Delights for Ladies (England,
1609)]

BOUCHET. To make six sixths of bouchet, take six pints of fine sweet
honey, and put it in a cauldron on the fire and boil it, and stir
continually until it starts to grow, and you see that it is producing
bubbles like small globules which burst, and as they burst emit a little
smoke which is sort of dark: and then stir, and then add seven sixths of
water and boil until it reduces to six sixths again, and keep stirring.
And then put it in a tub to cool until it is just warm; and then strain
it through a cloth bag, and then put it in a cask and add one chopine
(half-litre) of beer-yeast, for it is this which makes it the most
piquant, (and if you use bread yeast, however much you like the taste,
the colour will be insipid), and cover it well and warmly to work. And
if you want to make it very good, add an ounce of ginger, long pepper,
grains of Paradise and cloves in equal amounts, except for the cloves of
which there should be less, and put them in a cloth bag and throw in.
And after two or three days, if the bouchet smells spicy enough and is
strong enough, take out the spice-bag and squeeze it and put it in the
next barrel you make. And thus you will be able to use these same spices
three or four times.  [Le Menagier de Paris (France, 1393)]

To mak rostand tak and mak a stiff bater of egg and pured floure sugur a
goodelle and alitill yest of new ale and set it by the fier or els in a
pot with boillinge watur that it may take alitile heet when it riseth
swinge it to gedur and let it fall agayne and let the ovene be heet and
clene swept and put the floure in an ovone to bak that it ryse as
frenche bred then tak it out and cut away the cruste about the brod of a
noble and mak a hole and raise it all about under the cruste and longe
and ouer thwart as thyk as thou may with a knyf and so doun to the botom
hole the crust all about set on the crust aboue and set them in the
ovene till they be somdele dried and serue it furthe.  [A Noble Boke off
Cookry (England, 1468)]

Also, the following recipe calls for "new berme" - while not
conclusively yeast, I'd think that "new" would be an unlikely term for
sourdough starter.

To rost eggs in lent tak and blowe out the mete at the end of the egg
and washe the shelles with warme water then tak thik mylk of almonds and
set it to the fyere till it be at the boiling then put it in a canvas
and let the water run out and kep all that hangethe in the clothe and
gadur it to gedure in a dyshe put it to whyt sugure and colour the tone
half with saffron and put ther in a litill newe berme and pouderd
guinger and canelle and put som of the whit in the eggshell and in the
mydl put in of the yallow to be the yolk and fill it up with whyt then
set it in the fyere to rost and to xl eggs tak a lb of almond and a
quarter gyngyure and canelle.  [A Noble Boke off Cookry (England, 1468)]

- Doc


Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 09:13:57 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Leven: yeast or sourdough?

<<< Does wine making (from grapes, although I guess other fruits and honey as 
well) produce residue which includes yeast?

If so, can't that yeast be used to produce yeast for bread and such? Or is 
that a different yeast unsuitable for use as a bread leaven?

Stefan >>>

Most alcohol producing yeasts can be used to make bread, but aside from the 
flavor issues, the big question is how much CO2 do they produce.  S. 
cerevisiae generates a lot of CO2 which translates into lighter bread.

Bear 


Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 09:16:55 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Leven: yeast or sourdough?

I was referencing the Natural Histories of Pliny the Elder.  The Pliny II in 
the quote suggests that this reference is to Pliny the Younger.

Bear

<<< OED on barm defines it as
"1. a. The froth that forms on the top of fermenting malt liquors,  which 
is used to leaven bread, and to cause fermentation in other  liquors; 
yeast, leaven."

And there's a quotation attributed to Pliny but it's slightly different:

1601 HOLLAND Pliny II. 145 The froth or barme..[has] a property to  keepe 
the skin faire and cleare in womens faces.

Johnna >>>

On Oct 10, 2010, at 10:54 PM, Terry Decker wrote:
 The earliest reference (that I have located) to using ale barm is found 
in Pliny. 


Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 15:20:19 +0000
From: Holly Stockley <hollyvandenberg at hotmail.com>
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Leven: yeast or sourdough?

It isn't really the residues (lees) that you want.  Been there - tried that.  The resulting loaf tastes TERRIBLE.  Blech.   You want to get the actively fermenting foam on the top (presuming you're using Ale yeast...  which you should be).  But along with the yeast, you get a fair amount of liquid proto-beer.

CAN you leaven bread with wine?  Yep.  But wine strains tend to be a little different than ale strains.  They're not quite so aggressive, produce a bit less CO2 and tend to be more alcohol tolerant (as a group - there are some ale yeasts that are VERY tolerant).  Wine is normally of a higher alcohol concentration than ale, so this makes sense.

IF you use wine - you are essentially dumping a bunch of grape must into your bread with the yeast.  And you get - grape flavored bread.

Basically, it's easier to use ale yeast from beer and the result is better.  Ale yeasts take to flour fairly well, and attenuate into nice baking yeasts within about a dozen uses.  A lot of it is just greater compatibility for the substrate.

Femke

<<< Does wine making (from grapes, although I guess other fruits and honey as well) produce residue which includes yeast?

If so, can't that yeast be used to produce yeast for bread and such? Or is that a different yeast unsuitable for use as a bread leaven?

Stefan >>>


Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 20:13:43 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Leven: yeast or sourdough?

Johnnae quoted:
<<< OED defines leaven as a noun as "A substance which is added to dough
to produce fermentation; spec. a quantity of fermenting dough reserved
from a previous batch to be used for this purpose (cf. sour-dough)."

With quotations such as:
1471 RIPLEY Comp. Alch. IX. viii. in Ashm. (1652) 175 Lyke as flower
of Whete made into Past, Requyreth Ferment whych Leven we call.
1699 EVELYN Acetaria 53 Add a Pound of Wheat-flour, fermented with a
little Levain. >>>

So, does this mean that baking soda, baking powder, hartshorn etc. are not 
considered leavens, since they don't work through fermentation?

Stefan
----------

A leaven is any substance that when added to dough causes it to rise.  Since 
the process of fermentation was not understood until the 19th Century 
anything that caused the effect of raising dough might easily be considered 
an act of fermentation in period.

Bear 


Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 14:48:13 -0400
From: Guenievre de Monmarche <guenievre at erminespot.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Pretzels, yet again...

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Terry Decker <t.d.decker at att.net> wrote:
<<< Bear, this may be a dumb question, but have you baked directly from the
ale barm? How was it different from, say, the powdered yeast you can buy at
the grocery? I know when I was brewing small mead, I would skim off the
foam and wonder if I could scoop it off and use it for bread. Never tried
because even then I was having serious hand/wrist issues. Haven't made
bread in about 15 years. I might give it a try if it was part of an
experiment...

Liutgard
--
My limited experience with ale barm was that it wasn't as potent as modern
dry active yeast, which has been carefully bred for the past 100 years to
reduce alcohol production and increase the CO2.  As I remember it, the
bread took about 6 hours to rise.  This was before I took copious notes on
these kinds of experiments, so I have only memories to rely on.  I should
be in New Mexico full time by year's end and I'm thinking about getting a
stone crock and running up an ale pot just to test the leavening.

Terry
>>>

I actually have been playing around with bread-from-fermenting beer lately,
just hadn't had time to reply to the list until now (thus the zombie
thread). I got intrigued by a quote out of that Peter Brears book mentioned
lately - Cooking and Dining in Medieval England - from page 118:

"?Since the sourness produced by these methods was unsuitable for the
finest white manchets and paindemain, they were replaced by a leaven of the
frothy yeast carefully skimmed off the top of ale around the second day of
its fermentation ... When required, a volume of it equal to one twentieth
of the white flour was mixed with salt and warm water, mixed to a batter in
the flour in the dough trough, and then processed just like the cheat
dough."

I have a Resident Brewer, and so I got to experiment. I found it made
*very* tasty bread, but there were a couple of "gotchas" that affected the
end result.

1. The first batch I tried was using a stout as the leavening, and even at
only using 1/2 cup of beer foam to 24 oz flour (plus extra water, of
course) that significantly affected the color of the bread. Here's a
picture -
http://www.erminespot.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/154128_10151787910267119_1644233747_n1.jpg
- that's with *all white flour*, and it came out looking like
half-whole-wheat. With a lighter beer - something along the lines of a
newcastle brown - this effect was lessened.

2. The yeast was far more heat sensitive than the commercial yeast I
usually work with - I usually proof bread in a briefly-heated oven,
probably around 100 degrees or a bit more, for speed. The beer yeast just
*stopped* at that temperature, but happily rose in a 65 degree house.

3. You could definitely taste a little beer in the final bread - it wasn't
necessarily identifiable as beer if you didn't know that was what you were
tasting, but it was there. I possibly could have used less beer foam and
let it rise longer to reduce that effect while still getting a high-enough
yeast population.

Overall, though, the results were good, and much better than those a friend
of mine achieved playing with "spent" beer barm.

Guenievre


Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 15:26:38 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Pretzels, yet again...

One of the things I haven't tried and and you haven't apparently tried 
either, is washing the yeast.  Skim the froth from the active ferment and 
rinse it with repeated baths of cold water until white yeast settles out. 
The process shows up in a plantation cookbook from the early 19th Century. 
IIRC, the same cookbook discusses creating an active ferment (cream yeast) 
on potato water.

I don't recall anyone who has used lees for leaven as having stated that 
they washed out the yeast to purify it.  So such baking was done with all of 
the brewing impurities intact.

English baking was done with ale barm, which based on 16th Century usage, 
would be the active ferment of an unhopped barley malt beverage.  The ale 
might or might not have been bittered with gruit.  So you might want to try 
this with a batch of traditional unhopped ale.

Sounds like you had fun.

Bear

----- Original Message ----- 
<<< I actually have been playing around with bread-from-fermenting beer lately,
just hadn't had time to reply to the list until now (thus the zombie
thread). I got intrigued by a quote out of that Peter Brears book mentioned
lately - Cooking and Dining in Medieval England - from page 118: <snip>
>>>


Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 15:48:29 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Use of Yeast

First, yeast in this context is not derived from the dregs of anything.  The 
recipes are English and from the late 16th Century so the yeast in question 
will be ale barm, the scum found on the top of an active ale pot.  The 
particular yeast is Saccharomyces cerevisiae AKA baker's or brewer's yeast, 
so you can fake this with some bread yeast, malt extract and water or 
dissolve a little baker's yeast in water then add a bottle of unhopped ale 
(I like Dundee's).  I haven't tried faking it with powdered barley malt, but 
I will one of these days.

In Elizabethan England, ale barm would be be provided from a family's ale 
pot, a manor's ale house or purchased from a brewster.  Neither recipe 
specifies whether this is "cleaned" yeast, where the barm is washed to 
remove impurities.

Bear

-----Original Message----- 

When digging up recipes for rock fish, I found some that called for yeast.
Here are two examples:

To seeth Roches, Flounders, or Eeles.
MAke ye good broth with newe Yeast, put therein Uergious, Salt, Parsley, a
litle Time, and not so much Rosemarie and pepper. So set it on the fyre and
boyle it, & when it is wel boyled, put in Roches, Flounders, Eles, and a
quantitie of sweet Butter.
- The good Huswifes Handmaide for the Kitchin

A Pyke sauce for a Pyke, Breme, Perche, Roche, Carpe, Eles, Floykes and al
maner of brouke fyshe.
Take a posye of Rosemary and time and bynde them together, and put in also
a quantitye of perselye not bounde, and put into the caudron of water,
salte and yeste, and the herbes, and lette them boyle a pretye whyle, then
putte in the fysshe and a good quantitye of butter, and let them boyle a
good season, and you shall have good Pyke sauce....
- A Proper newe Booke of Cokerye

What are we talking about here? Is this dregs from a wine or ale barrel or
is it bread yeast in sugar water? Any ideas?

Guillaume


Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 09:07:00 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Use of Yeast

<<< And no matter whether the yeast source is from wine or ale or bread, Why 
would you want to do this? There?s no dough or batter to use the yeast for a 
rising agent, as far as I can see. Is this to simply add a taste?

Stefan >>>

The yeast acts as a thickener and flavor enhancer rather than a leaven. 
This is an early version of what is now known as "nutrional yeast."

Bear


Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2014 12:26:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Non-leavening/non-brewing use of yeast

My guess is that these would be in Germanic countries where beer was  
popular. The same countries were more likely to use yeast as a leavening for  
beer, whereas the French, for instance, used sour dough until the late  
seventeenth century (and even then use of yeast was fitful) despite knowing that  
the Flemish, for instance, used yeast and had lighter bread as a result.

There's really no mystery here: more beer, more brewer's yeast, which is  
pretty much all there was until the nineteenth century.

Jim Chevallier


Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2014 16:49:35 -0400
From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Non-leavening/non-brewing use of yeast

<<< My guess is that these would be in Germanic countries where beer was popular. >>>

I checked Rumpolt (1581) for mentions of Hefen (yeast). I only found 
it used for pastries and brewing.  (Rumpolt doesn't include bread 
recipes, apparently they purchased bread from a baker).

Menus:
Bischgoten (biscuit or biscotti) of white flour and Bierhefen (beer yeast).

A dough mixed with white flour/ with eggs/ and with Bierhefen (beer 
yeast)/ of such a dough one can make many and various pastries.

Large Piscoten (biscuit, biscotti) made of Bierhefen (beer yeast).

Gebackens 8. Take warm milk and beautiful flour/ put beer yeast with 
it/ and mix the dough with it/ sprinkle a little with salt/ and work 
the dough well/ set it to the fire/ that it goes over itself (rises)/ 
wash the fists clean/ and grab into the dough/ take a piece of it/ 
and pull finely from each other/ until it becomes thin and nicely 
long/ throw into hot Butter/ in a longish pan/ like this you fry the 
dough rapidly/ give it warm or cold on a table. You might sprinkle 
with sugar or not. And in Bavaria one calls it fried Steigleder 
(climbing leathers).

Gebackens 20. Take warm milk and beat eggs with it/ mix a dough with 
fair white flour/ take little beer yeast and butter to it/ let it 
stand a while behind the oven/ that it rises/ make it again into a 
ball/ and salt it a little/ then roll it out cleanly/ throw black 
raisins over it. Take a Walger (roller)/ that is warm/ and rubbed 
with butter/ and lay it on the dough/ wrap the dough over/ and tie it 
together with a twine/ so it does not fall off/ lay it to the fire 
and turn slowly/ like this will it roast cleanly. And when it becomes 
brown then take a brush/ and put it into hot butter/ and coat the 
cake with it/ like this it will be a beautiful brown. And when it is 
roasted/ so take it off the roller spit/ and put into both holes with 
a clean cloth/ that the heat remains/ let it remain like this/ until 
it is cool so give cold on a table/ so it becomes tender and good. 
And one calls it Spiesskuchen (spit cake).

Gebackens 41. Make a dough with milk/ eggs/ and fair white flour/ put 
a little beer yeast in it/ and make a good dough/ that is not 
completely stiff/ and do not over salt it/ set it to the warm/ that 
it nicely risen/ punch it down on a clean board/ and do little black 
raisins around it/ make strutzel from it/ throw it in hot butter/ and 
fry/ like this it will nicely puff up/ give cold or warm on a table/ 
sprinkle it with sugar/ like this it is a good Gebackens (pastry).

There are several mentions of Hefen (yeast),  Urhab (=urheb or 
sourdough), and Mutter (mother, or culture) in the Kellermeisterey 
section.

Ranvaig

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	yeasts-msg	Page 54 of 54