sops-msg – 5/4/10

Medieval sops. Slices of bread soaked in a sauce.

NOTE: See also the files: breadmaking-msg, flour-msg, French-Toast-msg, soup-msg, pancakes-msg, trenchers-msg, bread-msg, French-Toast-art, fried-breads-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:16:14 GMT
From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Feast Stories from 11th Night Investiture (LONG)

>The chicken was all thigh fillets, sprinkled with pepper and salt before
>baking. Placed each on a white bread toast slice and topped with the
>spiced wine sauce. The sauce 'felt' too thin to me. I might try cooking
>it down more, or adding something to thicken next time.

Not having your recipe in front of me I'm not sure of this suggestion.  But
here it is anyway. It may not be the sauce but rather the serving method.
At least some  of the "something with sops" recipes give instructions to put
sauce over the sop, and let it sop it up, and then repeat and repeat until
some just right, yummy, texture is reached.  The little experimentation I've
done indicates that if you use a bread with a strong crumb (not store sponge
bread!) and it should be fairly dry at least, better if toasted.  The
consistency I stop at is much like bread pudding or dressing/stuffing.
Bready and moist but not drippy.

Bonne


Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:02:24 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Feast Stories from 11th Night Investiture (LONG)

Bonne of Traquair wrote:
> At least some  of the "something with sops" recipes give instructions to put
> sauce over the sop, and let it sop it up, and then repeat and repeat until
> some just right, yummy, texture is reached.  The little experimentation I've
> done indicates that if you use a bread with a strong crumb (not store sponge
> bread!) and it should be fairly dry at least, better if toasted.  The
> consistency I stop at is much like bread pudding or dressing/stuffing.
> Bready and moist but not drippy.

Sounds about right. I forget where I recently saw detailed instructions
for this; one of the seventeenth-century sources, either Digby or
Markham, I forget which, but it reminded me of some of the early coffee
recipes: if not done right there's not much point, if you know what I mean.

I think the adjective we need for sops is "fluffy"...

Adamantius


Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:27:58 GMT
From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Feast Stories from 11th Night Investiture (LONG)

>I think the adjective we need for sops is "fluffy"...
>
>Adamantius

Yeah.  And stop too soon rather than too late.  Too soon is still edible.
Too late is slimy, icky.  I've seen the detailed instructions also, but as
those are the two I'm reading, I can't say off hand which it is.  Maybe
both.

Bonne


Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 07:47:17 -0500
From: Margo Farnsworth <mfarnsworth at mfgraffix.com>
Subject: Re: SC - medieval menu

One of my favorites - Sops!  It's similar to French Onion Soup, only we make it
much thicker.  Here's a version I usually make when camping:

Sops (for 6 servings)
6 medium onions
4 tbs.. butter
4 c. vegetable broth (2 Knorr vegetarian bouillon cubes)
1 c. wine (either red or white, it's flexible)
Bread
Cheese (any kind you like) (optional)

Saute the onions in butter until they are soft (even better if you let them
caramelize a bit!).  Pour in the broth and wine and simmer for at least 20
minutes.  Place hunks of bread in your eating bowl, and hunks of cheese
(optional) and spoon some of the onion mixture over.  The bread "sops" up the
juices.

I have also seen a version of this with leeks.  We have made it with beef
bouillon and without the wine or cheese.  It's really flexible, and hard to mess
up.  Yummy!

Faoiltighearna


Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:08:36 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Cippits

And it came to pass on 29 Jun 00,, that ALexandria Doyle wrote:
> The recipe itself doesn't seem difficult, until you get to
> the "serve y wth Cippits" part.  I also found another reference, same book
> in a Rump of Beefe recipe, to "then send it in with browne Cippits"
> 
> What are Cippits?

I believe this is an alternate spelling of "sippets".  According to food 
historian Karen Hess, sippet is the dimimutive of "sop" -- a toasted, 
fried, or dried piece of bread which is used to sop up liquid.  In other 
words, serve your frigasy over toast.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)


Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:45:09 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Cippits

ALexandria Doyle wrote: 
> I'm getting ready to try my hand at a period recipe for an upcoming
> competition and have located a couple I'd like to try in the "Mrs. Sarah
> Longe Her Receipt Booke C1610", in the back of _foolles and fricassess:
> Food in Shakespeare's England_  One is "A white ffrigasy"- basically a
> chicken dish.  The recipe itself doesn't seem difficult, until you get
> to the "serve y wth Cippits" part.  I also found another reference, same
> book in a Rump of Beefe recipe, to "then send it in with browne Cippits"
> 
> What are Cippits?

Sippets are toasts. Unlike trenchers, sippets are used to line a platter
or bowl, aren't designed for structural integrity, and seem usually to
be eaten as a sort of sauce-soaked pudding, kinda like the
custard-soaked cake slices in a modern trifle. I believe there are
pretty detailed instructions in both Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book
and Digby's Closet Opened, for alternately saucing and heating the toast
slices so that they swell up for maximum lightness without turning into sludge.
 
Adamantius


Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:32:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sops and etiquette

> Jeanne served them at her house at Easter.
> They would not go over at my house because
> my family wouldn't eat them.

Well, it was just me and mom eating them-- but my brothers would have
eaten them too. But then, they are not picky eaters and besides they  
both work in food service/catering.

But when I saw 'slyt soppes' I immediately thought: 'fried onions on  
Fried bread', and we used to eat that a lot for a treat.

> At feasts, I would think that it would depend on
> how soggy they were. I have never served them, so
> others will have to speak about if or how many were
> eaten and how many were tossed. Many people used to
> eat bread torn in pieces and served with milk as an evening
> meal; that doesn't mean that many would eat it today as part
> of the feast or a supper.

The closest modern analog I can think of is the bread at the top of the
french onion soup...

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa


To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sops and etiquette
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:35:58 -0400
From: Kirrily Robert <skud at infotrope.net>

Stefan asked:
> So, why don't you think they would go over well? isn't this very
> similar to chipped beef on toast? Or even Savory Tosted Cheese over
> bread? Or the maple syrup or honey my brothers and I used to pour over
> bread? :-)
> But no, it doesn't seem like "high feast" food. But I imagine it could
> be dressed up a bit. Ideas folks? How would you garnish this type of
> food? A sprig of parsley? A sprinkling of chopped nuts?

When I serve any kind of "sops" I usually arrange toasted bread around
the edge of the plate, then put a pile of the topping in the middle,
just slightly on top of the sops but with them mostly still sticking out
the sides, trying not to make it *too* wet.  Then you can just grab a
sop, and spoon stuff on top of it, and it's still kind of crunchy and
holds its shape while you try to eat it, rather than being a sodden
mess.  I think historically they would have just had the sodden mess,
but I'm happy with my solution as a "sop" to modern tastes.

Katherine
--
Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
katherine at infotrope.net  http://infotrope.net/sca/
Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere


Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 02:19:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] mustard soup, sops and bread
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

--- "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"<adamantius.magister at verizon.net> wrote:

>> Hmmm. I'd gotten the impression that sops were bread put into a
>> bowl with the broth then poured over them, although I don't know if
>> the bread was just dampened or totally immersed such as you usually
>> see in "French Onion Soup". As opposed to the bread being dipped
>> into the soup/sauce/drippings. "Sop" is apparently the root for
>> "soup". Comments anyone?
>
> In reasonably modern usage, and possibly archaic as well, "sop" can
> be a verb, more or less interchangeable with "soak", so you'd use
> bread to sop up the sauce on your plate. Active rather than passive
> sopping, hence with the fingers or a fork manipulating the bread. I
> believe that's the usage you're seeing in this case. Maybe someone
> has the OED handy...?
>
> Adamantius

Your wish is my command ...  I have only copied the pre-1600 examples  
listed.

Huette

Sop. n.

[OE. sopp, sop-, app. f. the weak grade of súpan SUP v.1 In ME. prob. reinforced
by the synonymous OF. sope, soupe (see SOUP n.), and in later senses partly from SOP v.
   The exact relationship of the OE. to the OF. word is not clear.  
Cf. also MDu. soppe,
zoppe (WFlem. zoppe), sop, ON. soppa (a foreign word), in the same sense.]

     1. A piece of bread or the like dipped or steeped in water,  
wine, etc., before being eaten or cooked.

a1100 in Napier O.E. Glosses lvi. 10 Offulam, sopp. 1340 Ayenb. 107 Ase is a zop of hot bryead huanne me hit poteth in-to wyn. c1375 Sc. Leg. Saints iii. (Andrew) 375 thane gaf he ilkane a sope with his hand of his awne cope. c1420 Liber Cocorum (1862) 53 yet sugurt soppes I nyl forete, thou tost shyves of gode manchete [etc.]. c1450 Two Cookery Bks. 90 Then cast the same licour vppon the Soppes, and serue hit forthe fore a good potage. 1484 CAXTON Fables of Æsop V. xii, Euery daye the sayd dogge hadde soppes of brede, and of drye breed he hadde ynough. 1520 Calisto & Melib. in Hazl. Dodsley I. 79 With a toast in wine by the fire I could sit With two dozen sops the colic to  quell. 1589 R. HARVEY
Pl. Perc. (1860) 9 Go to then, and take salt to your soppes, lest sorrow attaint them.

attrib. a1000 in Thorpe Dipl. Angl. Sax. (1865) 527 Anæ soppcuppan an thrym pundan. 1012 Ibid. 553 Ic ann minæn cinæhlafordæ..anræ sopcuppan.

fig. 1377 LANGL. P. Pl. B. xv. 175 If he soupeth, ette but a soppe of  
spera-in-deo.

b. to eat (or take) a sop, to make a slight repast. Obs.

c1330 R. BRUNNE Chron. Wace (Rolls) 7547 Preyenge..that he  wolde..herberwe him wyth, A day to ete a sop, & drynke, & se his werk. 13.. Gaw. & Gr. Knt.  1135 the leue lorde..Ete a sop hastyly, when he hade herde masse. c1400 Laud Troy Bk. 7932 Than thei yede and toke a sop, Thei ete a sop, and afftir dranke. c1440 Gesta Rom. xii. 39 (Harl. MS.), If that ye woll voche-safe to take a soppe with me.

c. Const. in (or of) the liquid in which the bread, etc., is dipped  
or steeped.

c1386 CHAUCER Prol. 334 (Harl.), Wel loved he in the morn a sop of [v.r. in] wyn. Merch. T. 631 Thanne he taketh a sope in fyne clarree. a1450 Knt. de la Tour (1868) 28 She made euery day dresse..for hem disshes withe soppes of mylke. c1491 Chast. Goddes Chyld. 13 Hit is nede that he take a soppe in ale or in wine before mete. c1530 LD. BERNERS Arth. Lyt. Bryt. (1814) 363 Suche as wold, toke a sop in wine. a1533  Huon xiv. 38 They toke a soppe of wyne.

sop, v.

[OE. soppian f. sopp SOP n.1 Cf. WFris. sopje, MDu. and Du. soppen (WFlem. zoppen) in sense 1; also WFlem. zoppen, Da. dial. soppe, in sense 2a.]

1. a. trans. To dip, soak, or steep (bread, etc.) in some liquid.  
Also absol.

c1000 Sax. Leechd. II. 228 Asgenim hlaf, asgeseoedh on gate meolce,  
soppasgie on sutherne.

a1529 SKELTON E. Rummyng 558 This ale, sayde she, is noppy, Let vs syppe and soppy, And not spyll a droppy. 1570 LEVINS Manip. 169/20 To soppe, offam intingere. 1597
A. M. tr. Guillemeau's Fr. Chirurg. 28/1 We must first let him suppe in a soft dressed egge, or a morsell of breade sopped in wyne.


Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 17:49:30 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OOP: Frozen sauces
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Jun 3, 2006, at 4:22 PM, Tom Vincent wrote:
> They were called 'sops' for a reason, you know.

Yes. Sops, even through the Renaissance, were toasts of bread or
similar soggy crusty items, served in a dish, sopping with some
liquid. For the most part, it was not the diner's job to decide which
crudite he would dunk in the liquid. See sops chamberleyn, soppes
d'oree, etc.

Adamantius


Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:08:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: <tom.vincent at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sops
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I'm going to disagree with that.  Sops are liquids dishes, not bread.

A Sop of Onions
(R.A. Beebe Sallets, Humbles & Shrewsbury Cakes)
1/2 cup butter
4 large onions, sliced into rings
salt and pepper
1 cup sour cream
1/4 tsp. nutmeg

Melt the butter in a deep frying pan and add onions. Saute over low  
heat, stirring frequently, until the onions soften. Add salt and  
pepper to taste, sour cream and nutmeg. Heat thoroughly, but do not  
boil, or the cream will curdle. Serve as is, or add broth and serve  
as a soup. Serves 4.

'Eenen seer schoonen ende excellenten Cocboeck', Dutch 1593, talks  
about sops with porridges and gravies. "A rough inventory of the  
Cocboeck shows
about 16 porridges and gravies. Porridge consisting of wine or milk,  
thickened with flour and/or eggs; gravy or sop is a solid ladle food  
that requires odorous liquid, sprinkled over roasted bread. The book  
also contains a 'Spanish porridge' and a 'Spanish sop'. Only one  
recipe of  pottage, carp! The 'Creym van Moerbeke' is a froth of  
sweet creamy custard."

"Sops glazed. Slice onions, and fry them in oil; then
take Wine, and boil with (the) Onions, toast white
Bread and put it in a dish, and place there-on good
Almond Milk, & temper it with wine: then do the
onions in sauce about and serve it forth. "
(Harleian MS 279 recipe 30)

Duriel


----- Original Message ----
On Jun 3, 2006, at 4:22 PM, Tom Vincent wrote:
> They were called 'sops' for a reason, you know.

Yes. Sops, even through the Renaissance, were toasts of bread or
similar soggy crusty items, served in a dish, sopping with some
liquid. For the most part, it was not the diner's job to decide which
crudite he would dunk in the liquid. See sops chamberleyn, soppes
d'oree, etc.

Adamantius


Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:31:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: <tom.vincent at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sops
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

===
They're two different recipes, as is shown by the different  
ingredients and references.  The one doesn't reference sops, it is a  
recipe for sop.  It references bread, which is an ingredient.  It is  
not a recursive recipe.

Duriel
===

I couldn't tell if the recipe you quote at the end of your message is
the original of the redaction quoted at the beginning.  If so, it does
reference "sops"...in that it states that you should "...toast white
Bread and put it in a dish, ..." etc.  This is the classic use of sops
as I've seen it.

Kiri


Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: <tom.vincent at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sops
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Maybe it's more clear in the originals:

Soupes dorroy. Shere Oynonys, an frye hem in oyle;
?anne take Wyne,an boyle with Oynonys, toste whyte
Brede an do on a dysshe, an caste ?er-on gode
Almaunde Mylke, & temper it wyth wyne: ?anne do
?e dorry a-bowte an messe it forth. (Harleian MS 279
recipe 30)

Soupes dorrees. Nym oynons, mynce hem, frie hem in
oille de olyue: nym onyons, boille hem with wyn, tost
whit bred, & do it in dishes and cast almand mylke
theron, & ye wyn & ye oynons aboue, & gif hit forth.
(Laud MS. 553 recipe 17)

Duriel


Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:44:15 -0400
From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sops
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--On Monday, June 05, 2006 9:31 AM -0700 tom.vincent at yahoo.com wrote:
> They're two different recipes, as is shown by the different ingredients
> and references.  The one doesn't reference sops, it is a recipe for sop.
> It references bread, which is an ingredient.  It is not a recursive
> recipe.

According to the OED a sop is both the bread used to sop up liquid, and
corresponding with that, the liquid used to dress a sop.  That certainly
reflects what I've seen of recipes that use the word sop. The quoted
recipes may not be recursive, but the sop reference itself certainly is.
The sop is both the bread and the mess that goes with it -- but I don't
think it's can properly be called a sop without the bread. Notice that both
the original recipes quotes use toasted white bread in a very  
specific way.

toodles, margaret


Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:11:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: <tom.vincent at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sops
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I don't disagree that 'sop' later became a verb and the tool rather  
than the liquid, but here are four period sop recipes.

You could just have easily claimed that 'sop' is another word for  
'onion'.

You can now more clearly see that bread is what sop is served *on top  
of* and not what sop *is*.  The last, especially, makes that clear.

Harleian MS. 279, Potage Dyvers
xxx. Soupes dorroy. Shere Oynonys, an frye hem in oyle; [th]anne take Wyne,
an boyle with Oynonys, toste whyte Brede an do on a dysshe, an caste
[th]er-on gode Almaunde Mylke, & temper it wyth wyne:  [th]anne do [th]e
dorry a-bowte, an messe it forth.

Laud MS. 553
17 Soupes dorrees.  Nym oynons, mynce hem, frie hem in oille de olyue:  nym
oynons, boille hem with wyn, tost whit bred, & do it in dishes/ and cast
almand mylke theron, & ye wyn & ye oynons aboue, & gif hit forth.

Harleian MS. 279 - Potage Dyvers
xxxiij.  Oyle Soppys.  Take a gode quantyte of Oynonys, and mynse hem not
to smale, an sethe in fayre Water:  [th]an take hem vp, an take a gode
quantite of Stale Ale, as .iij. galouns, an [th]er-to take a pynte of Oyle
fryid, an caste [th]e Oynonys [th]er-to, an let boyle alle to-gederys a
gode whyle; then caste [th]er-to Safroune, powder Pepyr, Sugre, an Salt, an
serue forth alle hote as tostes, as in [th]e same maner for a Mawlard & of
a capon, & hoc qu?re.

Harleian MS. 4016
130 Oyle soppes.  Take a good quantite of oynons, and myce hem, no[3]t to
smale, & seth hem in faire water, And take hem vppe; and then take a good
quantite of stale ale, as .iij. galons, And there-to take a pynte of goode
oyle that is fraied, and cast the oynons there-to, And lete al boyle
togidre a grete [while];  and caste there-to Saffron and salt, And [th]en
put brede, in maner of brewes, and cast the licour there-on, and serue hit
forth hote.

Duriel


Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:42:46 -0400
From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sops
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--On Monday, June 05, 2006 10:11 AM -0700 tom.vincent at yahoo.com wrote:
> I don't disagree that 'sop' later became a verb and the tool rather than
> the liquid, but here are four period sop recipes.
> You could just have easily claimed that 'sop' is another word for 'onion'.
>
> You can now more clearly see that bread is what sop is served *on top of*
> and not what sop *is*.  The last, especially, makes that clear.

That interpretation is only possible if you are looking at these four
recipes specifically. There are others sops recipes, and some that make it
clear that sop = bread.  There are also other references inliterature to
sops that make the interpretation of "something that goes on bread" rather
than "bread" a little less likely. Here's what I've found in a search of
the Corpus of Middle English website (which includes the 2 15th C  
cookbooks)

Here's the Oyle Sops recipe from the Douce manuscript MS 55 (about 1450)
  Oyle  Soppes  . Capitulum lxiiij.?Take and buille mylke, and take yolkes
of eyren tryed fro the white, and draw hem; then cast to the milke and hete
it, butt lete it nat buille, & [leaf 34b.] styrre it well till it be
summe-whate thikke: then cast ther-to sugre and salte, and cutt feyre
paynemayne in  soppes  , & cast the  soppes there-on, & serue it forth in
maner of potage.

**Note that this explicitly states that the sops are cut from white bread
and cast into the mess.

The Soppes pour Chamberleyne in the Harlein MS 4016 also makes an only
slightly less explicit statement that "sops" is the bread.

Soppes pour Chamberleyne. ? Take wyne, Canell, powder ginger, sugur/ of
eche a porcion?; And cast all in a Streynour, And honge hit on? a pyn?, And
late hit ren? thorgh a streynour twies or thries, til hit ren? clere; And
then? take paynmain, And kutte hit in a maner of Browes, And tost hit, And
ley hit in a dissh, and caste blanche pouder there-on? ynogh; And then?
cast the same licour vppon? ?e Soppes  , and serue hit forthe fore a good
potage.

and then there's Creme Boyled from the same manuscript that says to "cut
then fair painmain sops"

Creme boiled. ? Take mylke, and boile hit; And ?en? take yolkes of eyren?,
and try hem fro the white, and drawe hem thorgh a streynour, and cast hem
into ?e mylke; and then? sette hit on? ?e fire, and hete hit hote, and lete
not boyle; and stirre it wel til hit be som?-what thik; And caste thereto
sugur and salte; and kut ?en? faire paynmain soppes  , and caste the
soppes there-on?, And serue it in maner of potage.

The Lamprey I-bake recipe from the same manuscript has an almost identical
line: "And lete boyle ouer ?e fire; And take paynmain, and kutte hit and
wete hit yn?, And ley ?e soppes yn? the coffyn? of ?e lamprey"

The recipe for Lyode Soppes (which appears right above the Soupes Dorroy
Harlien MS 279, 1420) says pretty much the same thing:

Lyode  Soppes  .?Take Mylke an boyle it, an ?anne take yolkys of eyroun
y-tryid fro ?e whyte, an draw hem ?orwe A straynoure, an caste hem in-to ?e
mylke, an sette it on ?e fyre an hete it, but let it nowt boyle; an stere
it wyl tyl it be somwhat ?ikke; ?enne caste ?er-to Salt & Sugre, an kytte
fayre paynemaynnys in round  soppys  , an caste ?e  soppys  ?er-on, an
serue it forth for a potage.

Then there are the two Chaucer references that make clear that a sop is
something put into a broth:

In the prologue, about the Franklin is written "Wel louede be ?e morwe a
soppe in wyn"

and in the Clerks tale: "Thus labourith he tyl the day gan daweAnd thanne
he takyth a soppe in fyn clarree" (He worked until the day was done, and
then he ate a sop in fine claree wine)

The Boke of Curtasye instructs the young lad
"Of breed with ?i tee? no soppis ?ou make;"
(Don't make sops by biting the bread {yuck!})

Given all this, I'll stand by my original statement.

toodles, margaret


Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:20:18 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sops
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

tom.vincent at yahoo.com wrote:

> Maybe it's more clear in the originals:
>
> Soupes dorroy. Shere Oynonys, an frye hem in oyle;
> ?anne take Wyne,an boyle with Oynonys, toste whyte
> Brede an do on a dysshe, an caste ?er-on gode
> Almaunde Mylke, & temper it wyth wyne: ?anne do
> ?e dorry a-bowte an messe it forth. (Harleian MS 279
> recipe 30)
>
> Soupes dorrees. Nym oynons, mynce hem, frie hem in
> oille de olyue: nym onyons, boille hem with wyn, tost
> whit bred, & do it in dishes and cast almand mylke
> theron, & ye wyn & ye oynons aboue, & gif hit forth.
> (Laud MS. 553 recipe 17)
>
> Duriel

But in both cases, the onions are fried, then boiled with wine.  White
bread is toasted, put in a bowl and almond milk, along with the onions
are poured over the toasted bread.  The bread isn't, as I interpret it,
actually mixed into the onion/wine/almond milk mixture, but is used as a
vehicle for the other ingredients...it's not a thickner as is seen in
other recipes where the directions call for grating or grinding the
bread.  I have done a late period recipe for cauliflower where the
cauliflower is cooked in a milk sauce, then served over toast just as
described here.

Kiri


Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:24:49 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sops
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Jun 5, 2006, at 1:42 PM, Gretchen Beck wrote:
>
> In the prologue, about the Franklin is written "Wel louede be ?e
> morwe a soppe in wyn"
>
> and in the Clerks tale: "Thus labourith he tyl the day gan daweAnd thanne
> he takyth a soppe in fyn clarree" (He worked until the day was done, and
> then he ate a sop in fine claree wine)
>
> The Boke of Curtasye instructs the young lad
> "Of breed with ?i tee? no soppis ?ou make;"
> (Don't make sops by biting the bread {yuck!})
>
> GIven all this, I'll stand by my original statement.
>
> toodles, margaret

Well, it's pretty clear that introducing one modern-adapted recipe
from a secondary source and one period recipe specifically calling
for toasted bread to be laid in the serving dish before pouring
liquid on it is not a way to establish the premise that sops aren't
characterized/identified throughout their history by pouring some
kind of liquid over toasts.

If my statements allowed any susceptible person to interpret my claim
that sops are toasts (admittedly, vague) to be taken as literal and
reversible equivocation, in spite of phrases like "generally
speaking", I guess I owe some people an apology. If I could just get
a show of hands...?

Incidentally, since, so far, the only close-to-period recipe for sops
that don't specifically call for toasts or sippets (the recipe quoted
and rather liberally adapted by Beebe in her book) that we've seen
here actually comes from The Second Part of Thomas Dawson's "The Good
Hus-wives Jewell", and while it doesn't mention toasts, it doesn't
rule it out (while dozens of others in contemporary sources do
mention them). There's a very strong chance that any contemporary
cook would see the word "soppes" and immediately put some bread on
the gridiron while making this dish. Certainly there's nothing in the
original about serving it as a vegetable side dish (also nothing
about sour cream), nor thinning it down with broth to serve as a
soup. That's all Beebe, not Dawson. Dawson, BTW, includes several
recipes for broths and stews (To Boyle X...) served upon sops of
bread, while not naming them as sop dishes.

Adamantius


Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:59:16 -0500
From: "margaret" <m.p.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sops
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> I'm going to disagree with that.  Sops are liquids dishes, not bread.
> Duriel

The usage of "sop" to denote bread soaked in liquid or the act of soaking
bread in liquid dates at least as early as 1000 CE.  The extension to "sops"
as liquid dishes seems to occur in the early 14th Century.

Bear


Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:50 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sops
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The recipes you have cited are all 14th Century or later and most of them
are written in Middle English which came into use around 1100.  "Sopp" has
its origins in Old English (5th to 11th Centuries) and the first known
reference is, IIRC, in a Saxon Leechbook from about 1000 CE and it refers to
the act of dipping bread in liquid.  This means that Elaine's usage predates
the usage you reference by at least 300 years.

Your argument is just the reverse of the reality and you have been bitten
(as I have been at other times) by failure to check the etymology of  
a word.

Bear

> I don't disagree that 'sop' later became a verb and the tool rather than
> the liquid, but here are four period sop recipes.
>
> You could just have easily claimed that 'sop' is another word for  
> 'onion'.
>
> You can now more clearly see that bread is what sop is served *on top of*
> and not what sop *is*.  The last, especially, makes that clear.
>
> <recipes clipped>
> Harleian MS. 279, Potage Dyvers
> Laud MS. 553
> Harleian MS. 279 - Potage Dyvers
> Harleian MS. 4016
>
> Duriel


Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:57:08 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sops
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I just counted and we lemmatized 29 recipes on page 91
and another 8 on page 92 under Sops so that's at least 37 recipes
in English. It's fairly easy to take that list in the Concordance, the
sources, and then go through and see what each recipe says, noting the changes over time. Add in the Anglo-Saxon, MED and OED definitions, and it has the makings of an interesting article, but not for me.

I hear the Elizabethans calling. My printing bibliography arrived today, so
I am going to immerse myself in that for a spell.

Johnnae

> Actually thereare numerous entries for sops. The Concordance
> (my concordance?; our concordance? the CER? that book? I have to
> figure out what to call it) lists a full page of entries followed by
> another 8 on the next page.Sops chamberleyn or chamberlain is in 5  
> entries. Sops Dops dorre
> is in another 13. That's just the English references of course.
>
> Johnnae


Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 00:49:53 -0400
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sops
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

This thread made me hungry, so I had sops for dinner.  I chose a Spanish
recipe (surprise!) from de Nola.

LOMBARDY SOPS (SOPAS A LA LOMBARDA)

Make broth from good meat which should be quite fat; and cast much
saffron into it, that it should be quite yellow and
very deep in color; and the broth should be well-salted; and then take
slices of bread, removing the crust, and toast them
and scrape off the burnt part, and scald these sops with the said broth;
and when they are scalded, place them in an iron
casserole, making a layer of sops and another layer of buttery cheese of
Parma, or of Aragon, or of Navarra; and so fill
all the casserole; when it is full, set it on the fire to cook over good
coals or in the oven, and cook it little by little; and
as it cooks, cast in that broth, from time to time, fatty and yellow, by
spoonfuls inside the casserole, sprinkling it over
the sops; and when it is more than half cooked, cover the casserole or
frying pan with an iron lid which should be laden
with coals on top; and cook it in this way for an hour, looking and
ascertaining occasionally that it should not dry up
too much, and  that it should be well supplied with said broth, which
should be the fattest; and when you put it on the
table, do it in such a manner that they go dry.  And having done this,
prepare dishes or if you wish to make plates of
them, let it be as you wish.

http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-MANUSCRIPTS/Guisados1-art.text

This was a last-minute decision, so some of my choices were based on
convenience.  I took a loaf of French bread and cut it into thick
slices.  I would have preferred a round loaf, but none were available
tonight in the supermarket bakery section.  I did not remove the
crusts.  I toasted the slices on a baking sheet in the oven.  Meanwhile,
I simmered some packaged chicken broth with a pinch of saffron.  I
soaked the toasted bread briefly in the hot broth, then layered it with
cheese in a casserole.  The cheese was pre-shredded.  I chose a 6-cheese
Italian blend, which included Fontina, Provolone, Parmesan, Mozzarella,
Asiago, and Romano.  I sprinkled some additional broth over the sops,
and added more when it seemed necessary.  The sops baked for 45 minutes
in a 325 F oven.  After the first 25 minutes, I covered the casserole.

The result was tasty, though the texture could have used some
improvement.  A firmer bread would have worked better, and I think I
added a little too much broth.  There's a fine line between too dry and
too soggy.  Definitely worth trying again.

To further add to the discussion, here's a second sops recipe from de  
Nola:

GOLDEN SOPS (SOPAS DORADAS)

Take a loaf of bread and make slices of it.  And toast them moderately,
so that they do not burn, and take good broth and
cook it in a separate pot with all your provisions, and skim it well,
and then have ready grated cheese, and when you
want to eat take some egg yolks, and blend them with the best fatty beef
broth of the pot.  And cast in a little ginger
and then take those toasts, and soak them in the broth, and when they
are done soaking, remove them from that broth;
and prepare dishes of those slices of bread or sections; and cast upon
them the broth with the eggs.  Then cast the cheese
on them.  And these are called golden sops.
-- 
Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom


Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:18:01 -0800
From: Ian Kusz <sprucebranch at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sops and sippets

He's probably thinking of this quote:

"About three quarters after eleven, have your slice dried bread ready in a
dish, and pour a ladleful of the broth upon it. Let it stew covered upon a
Chafing-dish. When that is soaked in, put on more. So continue till it be
well *mitton?e*, and the bread grown spungy, and like a gelly. Then fill up
the dish with broth, and put the Hen and Veal upon it, and cover them over
with herbs, and so serve it in."
-- 
Ian of Oertha
-----------------------
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:50 PM, Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com
wrote:

Adamantius said:
<<< The other question to be addressed is whether our target audience ate
much toasted bread that wasn't sops, and whether this was considered
healthy, or even if everybody concerned could chew it.

I mean, the recipes from the sixteenth and seventeenth century that go into
detail as to how sops are prepared and slowly moistened, seem to suggest
that sops are pretty well puffed up and jellylike by the time they're
served. You have to wonder whether this could be accomplished by the kind of
over-reduced pottage being spoken of. >>>

Unfortunately, I don't seem to have any original recipes in there. What are
some of the recipes you are referring to, Adamantius?

The redactions I do have pretty much say to put the bread in the bottom of
the bowl and pour the soup or the soup/wine mixture over it. I don't see
time for it to get "well puffed up and jellylike". There is a quote from you
(Adamantius) in the file of "I think the adjective we need for sops is
"fluffy"..." but I don't seem to having anything about why you say this.

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
 Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas


Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:49:54 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sops and sippets

Digby
As a potherb: The Closet of Sir Kenelm Digby Opened, 1669: POTAGE DE SANT?
Florilegium file titled
Cucumbers-Hst-art - 10/16/09
"Medieval and Ancient History of the Cucumber" by Ian of Oertha.

Johnnae
--------------
On Jan 26, 2010, at 9:18 PM, Ian Kusz wrote:
<<< He's probably thinking of this quote:

"About three quarters after eleven, have your slice dried bread ready in a
dish, and pour a ladleful of the broth upon it. Let it stew covered upon a
Chafing-dish. When that is soaked in, put on more. So continue till it be
well *mitton?e*, and the bread grown spungy, and like a gelly. Then fill up
the dish with broth, and put the Hen and Veal upon it, and cover them over
with herbs, and so serve it in." >>>

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	sops-msg	Page 16 of 16