bread-stuffed-msg - 9/7/09 Period stuffed breads - Breads stuffed and baked with various mixtures. Rastons. NOTE: See also the files: bread-msg, breadmaking-msg, Bread-Hist-art, pretzels-msg, ovens-msg, pasta-msg, butter-msg, flour-msg, rice-msg, grains-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:48:52 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: SC - Rastons (was: dumb Bread trencher Question) At 10:39 PM -0600 11/7/98, Decker, Terry D. wrote: >To my knowledge, there is no evidence that bread bowls were used in period. >However, rastons come close. Rastons are a white bread fortified with eggs >on which the top has been carefully cut away, the soft inner bread scooped >out, crumbled and fried with spices, then returned to the loaf and to top >placed on before serving. > >Bear My rastons recipe (from Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books) calls for you to crumble the inside of the bread while keeping the sides and bottom crust whole, adding butter to the crumbs and mixing, putting the top back on, and rebaking the whole thing briefly. No frying and no spices. Where is your recipe from? Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:03:44 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Rastons (was: dumb Bread trencher Question) > My rastons recipe (from Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books) calls for you > to crumble the inside of the bread while keeping the sides and bottom crust > whole, adding butter to the crumbs and mixing, putting the top back on, and > rebaking the whole thing briefly. No frying and no spices. Where is your > recipe from? > > Elizabeth/Betty Cook No recipe. The only reference I had handy was a set of general notes. I'm running some comparisons between various authors. This particular entry is from the general commentary in Sass's To The King's Taste. As you raised the question, I located my copy of Sass and checked the raston recipe, rather than the commentary. It is from Harleian and is as you stated. Sass interprets this as mixing the butter and crumbs in the skillet used to melt the butter. Bear Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:44:12 -0500 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" Subject: Re: SC - Rastons (was: dumb Bread trencher Question) On the topic of "bowls as containers", here's a 16th century Spanish recipe for stuffed bread. The recipe is from a 1971 reprint of the 1599 edition of _Libro Del Arte De Cozina_ by Diego Granado. The translation is mine; feel free to play with it. To Stuff a Large Bread Take a round bread of two pounds, cooked the day before [1], and make a round opening in the middle of the bottom crust, and take out all the crumb in such a manner that nothing remains but the crust, which you must scrape on the outside before taking out the crumb. Have a composition made of a cooked capon breast pounded in a mortar with the yolks of hard-cooked eggs, and marzipan paste, and mostachones [2], mixing everything with raisins and chopped herbs, and raw eggs, cinnamon, and saffron, a good deal. Stuff the bread and fasten the opening with the crust that you took out, and put said bread in a proportionately-sized copper stewpot, in such a manner that it is neither very big or very small, with fatty broth, and have it cook gently for the space of an hour and a half, and when the bread has swollen, it is cooked. Drain the broth from the vessel and put the bread on the plate with dexterity, for otherwise it cannot be removed intact. You can cook it in another manner, and it is this: having stuffed the bread, put it in a napkin or cloth [3], and being fastened put it in a little caldron with boiling broth and let it cook held with a little cord fastening the napkin, so that with the boiling it does not go hither and thither: the bread being cooked in one of the aforesaid manners, serve it hot with sugar and cinnamon, and a little of the fatty broth on top. In this bread can be cooked little birds with their insides cleaned, and entrails, and testicles of a young goat. [1] "de un dia" -- I interpret that as one day old. [2] "mostachones" -- my modern dictionary compares them to gingerbread, and my guide to Spanish cuisine says that they are for dipping in coffee or hot chocolate. [3] "estame~na" This is a cloth of wool or serge, used in many other recipes as a strainer. Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:21:08 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: SC - Stuff inside bread (was: Bread Soup Bowls) At 10:46 PM -0800 11/10/98, Laura C Minnick wrote: >... In one area, there is >two men and a woman looking over a crenellated edge at the scene below, >and one of the men is holding in his hand what I can only describe as a >Hostess Fruit Pie- you know, the half-moon shape, filled, and crimped >along the rounded edge. Given the particular contortions his face is in, >it looks as though he's eating, so I would gather he's nibbling on his >pie. What might be in the pie, I don't know. Maybe this? Ryschewys Closed and Fried Two Fifteenth Century p. 45/97 Take figs, and grind them small in a mortar with a little oil, and grind with them cloves and maces; and then take it up into a vessel, and cast thereto pines, saunders and raisons of corinth and minced dates, powdered pepper, canel, salt, saffron; then take fine paste of flour and water, sugar, saffron and salt, and make fair cakes thereof; then roll thine stuff in thine hand and couch it in the cakes and cut it, and fold them in ryshews, and fry them up in oil; and serve forth hot. [end of original, spelling modernized] 25 black mission figs 2 t oil 1 t cloves 1 t mace 1/4 c pine nuts 1/4 t saunders 1/3 c currants 5 1/2 oz dates 1/8 t pepper 1 t cinnamon 1/4 t salt 4 threads saffron pastry: 2 c flour, 1/2 c water, 1 T sugar, 1/8 t salt, 1 thread saffron more oil for frying Chop dates. Grind figs with oil cloves, and mace, then mix with rest of filling ingredients. Mix pastry ingredients; take a lump of dough and roll out into a flat circle about 4"-5" across. Put some filling on, fold the circle in half and seal the edges. Fry them in oil, flipping them over when the first side is done. I think some versions of this recipe call them "rischews is lent" which implies that there is a meat-day version as well, though I don't have a recipe. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:10:03 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: SC - Stuff inside bread (was: Bread Soup Bowls) At 12:10 AM -0500 11/11/98, Stefan li Rous wrote: >What did period folk do for food on the go? Did they always sit down to >eat? We can't seem to find proof of sandwiches or breadbowls or flatbreads >with meats in them (such as Greek Gyros or tortillas). > >Now, Elizabeth and Bear have brought up rastons recently. This was a bread >with stuff stuffed inside it, but it appears to be only buttered bread. >Is there evidence of anything else being stuffed or cooked inside bread >which would then fit into the same niche as modern sandwiches? Here is an Islamic recipe for precisely that. Recipe for the Barmakiyya Andalusian p. A-9 It is made with hens, pigeons, ring doves, small birds, or lamb. Take what you have of it, then clean it and cut it and put it in a pot with salt and onion, pepper, coriander and lavender or cinnamon, some murri naqi, and oil. Put it over a gentle fire until it is nearly done and the sauce is dried. Take it out and fry it with mild oil without overdoing it, and leave it aside. Then take fine flour and semolina, make a well-made dough with yeast, and if it has some oil it will be more flavorful. Then stretch this out into a thin loaf and inside this put the fried and cooked meat of these birds, cover it with another thin loaf, press the ends together and place it in the oven, and when the bread is done, take it out. It is very good for journeying; make it with fish and that can be used for journeying too. [end of original] Note: The Barmecides were a family of Persian viziers who served some of the early Abbasid Caliphs, in particular Haroun al-Rashid, and were famed for their generosity. 1/2 c sourdough 3 T olive oil for dough 1 1/2 t (lavender or) cinnamon 3/4 c water 1 lb boned chicken or lamb 1 t salt 1 1/2 c white flour 10 oz chopped onion 1 T murri (see the _Miscellany_) 1 1/2 c semolina 1/2 t pepper 3 T olive oil (1 t salt in dough) 1 t coriander 3 T more olive oil for frying Cut the meat fairly fine (approximately 1/4" slices, then cut them up), combine in a 3 quart pot with chopped onion, 1 t salt, spices, murri, and 3 T oil. Cook over a medium low to medium heat about an hour. Cover it at the beginning so it all gets hot, at which point the onion and meat release their juices; remove the cover and cook until the liquid is gone, about 30 minutes. Then heat 3 T oil in a large frying pan on a medium high burner, add the contents of the pot, fry over medium high heat about five minutes. Stir together flour, semolina, 1 t salt. Gradually stir in 3 T oil. Combine 3/4 c water, 1/2 c sourdough. Stir this into the flour mixture and knead to a smooth dough (which should only take a few minutes). If you do not have sourdough, omit it; since the recipes does not give the dough much time to rise, the sourdough probably does not have a large effect on the consistency of the dough. Divide the dough in four equal parts. Take two parts, turn them out on a floured board, squeeze and stretch each (or use a rolling pin) until it is at least 12" by 5". Put half the filling on one, put the other on top, squeeze the edges together to seal. Repeat with the other two parts of the dough and the rest of the filling. Bake on a cookie sheet at 350° for 40 minutes. For the fish version, start with 1 1/4 lb of fish (we used salmon). If it is boneless, proceed as above, shortening the cooking time to about 35 minutes; it is not necessary to cut up the fish fine, since it will crumble easily once it is cooked. If your fish has bones, put it on top of the oil, onions, spices etc., in the largest pieces that will fit in the pot, cover the pot, and cook for about 10-15 minutes, until the fish is almost ready to fall apart; in effect, it is being steamed by the liquid produced from the onions and by its own liquid. Take out the fish, bone it, return to the pot, and cook uncovered about 30 minutes until the liquid is mostly gone. Continue as above. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:28:28 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Rastons experiment Sass used 1/2 cup of butter to what I believe is a 2 lb. loaf. She also says reheat at 350 degrees for a few minutes. I translate that as being between 5 and 10 minutes. Bear Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:36:15 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Rastons experiment > . What did you serve this with? Sounds like it > would be best with stewed meat and onions poured over a serving size > portion. > > Ras The recipe for rastons uses an egg enriched dough. It might have been used as you suggest, but I think it may be a predecessor to fruit breads. There is supposed to be a recipe earlier than this one for "Wastels yfarced" (IIRC) which I do not have and may shed some light on how stuffed breads were served. Bear Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:01:39 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Rastons experiment "Decker, Terry D." wrote: > There is supposed to be a recipe earlier than this one for "Wastels yfarced" > (IIRC) which I do not have and may shed some light on how stuffed breads > were served. If I remember correctly (hah!) Wastels yfarced are boiled in a cloth like a pudding. The stuffing is slightly different, too. Adamantius Østgardr, East Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:11:03 -0500 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: RE: SC - Rastons experiment >The recipe for rastons uses an egg enriched dough. It might have been used >as you suggest, but I think it may be a predecessor to fruit breads. > >There is supposed to be a recipe earlier than this one for "Wastels yfarced" >(IIRC) which I do not have and may shed some light on how stuffed breads >were served. > >Bear Hello! I also use 1/2 cup clarified butter, & re-heat the bread in a warm oven for about 10 minutes. The problem I have with this recipe is that it is very messy to eat. The buttered crumbs fall all over the place, & leave greasy stains. The recipe for Wastels yfarced (Forme of Cury, p. 72): Take a Wastel and hewe out [th]e crinnes. take ayren & shepis talow & [th]e crinne of [th]e same Wastell powdor fort & salt wt Safron and Raisons corance. & medle alle [th]ise yfere & do it in [th]e Wastel. close it & bynde it fast togidre. and see[th] it wel. As you can see, this one is tied & boiled like a pudding. Cindy/Sincgiefu renfrow at skylands.net Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:33:01 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Rastons experiment At 11:30 PM -0500 11/24/98, Stefan li Rous wrote: >I just tried my hand at making Rastons using the following message posted >here recently: .... >I started with a nine inch round sourdough loaf from the deli area of my local >grocery. It was several days old when I got around to making it. I would think >this would actually be more likely than a freshly baked loaf, anyway. ... >I cut off the top. I had originally thought I could crumble the bread inside >the crust, but ended up scooping it out into a bowl first, crumbling it there >and mixing it back into the bread while adding margarine (I didn't have any >butter). I first cooked it for six minutes at 400 degrees. When I checked it, >the center was still cool and the margarine unmelted. So I put it back in >the oven at 200 degrees for about 15 minutes more. I cooked it in a cake pan >on the top rack of a gas oven. > >The end result was good, but not great. When I tried to cut it, the crust >burst into pieces. I don't think that is what I wanted. Here is the original recipe plus our version out of the Miscellany. Note that the bread dough has sugar and eggs in it, which your sourdough bread probably lacks. Note also that since you are told to bake the bread and then to cut it, etc, with no indication of a break, several-day-old bread is probably not more accurate. Rastons Two Fifteenth Century p. 52/63 Take fayre Flowre, and the whyte of Eyroun, and the yolk, a lytel; than take Warme Berme, and putte al thes to-gederys, and bete hem to-gederys with thin hond tyl it be schort and thikke y-now, and caste Sugre y-now ther-to, and thenne lat reste a whyle; than kaste in a fayre place in the oven, and late bake y-now; and then with a knyf cutte yt round a-boue in maner of a crowne, and kepe the crust that thou kyttyst; and than pyke al the cromys with-ynne to-gederys, an pike hem smal with thyn knyf, and saue the sydys and al the cruste hole with-owte; and than caste ther-in clarifiyd Botor, and mille the cromes and the botor to-gederes, and keuere it a-gen with the cruste, that thou kyttest a-way; than putte it in the ovyn agen a lytil tyme; and than take it out, and serue it forth. [end of original; thorns replaced by th] 2 1/4 c flour 2 egg whites 1 egg yolk 1/2 T dried yeast (mixed with 1/2 c water) 1/2 c sugar 1 c butter After mixing all ingredients except for butter, let the dough rise 45 minutes to an hour. Mold the dough on a greased cookie sheet, let rise a little more. Bake at 350° about 1 hour. Cut off top as described, mix insides of loaf with melted butter, and replace top. Second baking is about 5 minutes at the same temperature. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:00:44 -0500 From: MAUREEN.L.MARTIN at DFAS.MIL Subject: SC - I Fired My Bread! Now that I have (more or less) gotten all put back together from Lilies I have time to report on my adventure in baking bread with real fire. But first let me take this opportunity to say that Lilies' weather this year was the best ever since I have been attending (6 years): Days in the 70's and nights in the 50's with low (for Missouri) humidity; perfect camping weather (for those of us who brought blankets)! And only 1 day of rain (I'm not counting the nights)! We should be so lucky again. I am presuming the Weather Gods felt mildly guilty for last year and were trying to make things up to us--contributions must have been down. And now for our story... I started about 11:00 a.m. stoking the fire. Used mostly Pin Oak kindling and some mystery logs someone brought. Our fire pit was roughly 3' by 3' by 18" deep. There was a little keyhole notch, 1' by 1' by 6" deep, dug on the up-wind side. Fire Pit Illustration (this may not come out O.K., but you can kinda get the picture): |---------------| | | | \-----| | | <---Nitch for coals | /-----| | | |---------------| Once the fire was going I mixed up the dough using Cindy Renfrow's redaction of Rastons in *Thousand Eggs* (Cindy, may I print your recipe on this list?). Since I forgot modern measuring implements I fell back on the time tested method of Guesstimation (I used eating implements as rough measures). Since temperature was only in the low 70's by the time I finished mixing it, to keep it warm and cozy I covered it with a damp towel and put it in the (normally) hot (but now just uncomfortably warm) old mundane tent I was using as a storage closet. It took 2ish hours to rise to double in bulk. I punched it down, shaped it into a ball and placed it on a greased 9" stoneware pie plate, that being a close approximation to a stone hearth AND the right size to fit into my little Coleman-type oven. I returned the mass with dampened towel to my improvised "proofing oven" for another rise. Since by now it was honestly hot in the tent the dough rose much more quickly this time. Also, I didn't quite let it double in size since I was afraid that with the spring in the oven it would grow too large for its baking confines: my oven is roughly one foot square. In the mean time, I kept the fire stoked; the neighbors cooked lunch on it and I placed my oven on the ground over its little niche in the dirt to warm up. Conveniently, the fire was sufficiently burned down to coals when the bread was ready to bake, and the pit was nice and hot. After removing the oven, I took a shovel and rounded up all of the coals that were ready (which were most of them), scooping them into the niche the oven had been on. I replaced the oven over the niche with its coals and put my little 9" bun it the oven. I then sat impatiently in front of the oven's glass window to watch the show. After 3 minutes of the wind switching directions and blowing smoke from a smoldering bit of wood into my face I gave it up and puttered around camp for half an hour, checking the bread frequently. Its initial spring was good, but things slowed down after that, I think because the breeze came up, or maybe because the coals were too far gone after the first 20 minutes. At any rate, its size was good, but it was too pale. By now it was time to stoke the fire for dinner, so I dropped some more mystery wood on the pit and built up a nice blaze behind the oven. And, Lo, the bread began to take on some color! I turned it once, obtaining a nice, fairly even, golden color. The texture was a little moist and could have used a little more time in the cooker, but I was afraid at the rate it was browning it would just burn if I left it in longer. The recipe calls for scooping out the guts and mixing the cut up bits with clarified butter. Unfortunately, I forgot the butter and was forced to use (shudder) Shedd's Spread. It tasted fine anyway. I was supposed to wait for the loaf to cool before I gutted it, but I forgot that part in the excitement of the moment and did it while it was (very) warm. I might have gotten a better texture if I had waited until it was cool. After replacing the crumbs in the cavity of the crust, the loaf sat around and got quite cool waiting for dinner to be served. However, after returning it to the oven for a few minutes we ate the bread for dinner. My camp mates seemed surprised but they pronounced it not only edible but "Very Good." However, for my personal palate I think I will add some salt next time even though none of the original recipes called for it. That's all for now. Let me know what you think. I plan to do this again; it was so easy! I want to build an earthen oven at home and play with that. Does anyone have any specs on something like that? Melisande Saucheverel Calontir Barony of Forgotten Sea Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:17:37 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - I Fired My Bread! Bravo! Here you are (I changed it a bit in the 2nd. edition): Harleian MS. 279 - Dyuerse Bake Metis xxv. Rastons. Take fayre Flowre, & [th]e whyte of Eyroun, & [th]e [3]olke, a lytel; [th]an take Warme Berme, & putte al [th]es to-gederys, & bete hem to-gederys with [th]in hond tyl it be schort & [th]ikke y-now, & caste Sugre y-now [th]er-to, & [th]enne lat reste a whyle; [th]an kaste in a fayre place in [th]e oven, & late bake y-now; & [th]en with a knyf cutte yt round a-boue in maner of a crowne, & kepe [th]e crust [th]at [th]ou kyttyst; & [th]an pyke al [th]e cromys with-ynne to-gederys, an pike hem smal with [th]in knyf, & saue [th]e sydys & al [th]e cruste hole with-owte; & [th]an caste [th]er-in clarifiyd Boter, & Mille [th]e crome3 & [th]e botere to-gedere[3], & keuere it a-[3]en with [th]e cruste, [th]at [th]ou kyttest a-way; [th]an putte it in [th]e ovyn a[3]en a lytil tyme; & [th]an take it out, & serue it forth. 25. Rastons. Take fair Flour, & the white of Eggs, & the yolk, a little; then take Warm Barm, & put all these together, & beat them together with thine hand till it is short & thick enough, & cast Sugar enough thereto, & then let rest a while; then cast in a fair place in the oven, & let bake enough; & then with a knife cut it round above in manner of a crown, & keep the crust that thou cut; & then pick all the crumbs within together, and pick them small with thine knife, & save the sides & all the crust whole without; & then cast therein clarified Butter, & Mix the crumbs & the butter together, & cover it again with the crust, that thou cuttest away; then put it in the oven again a little time; & then take it out, & serve it forth. The ale yeast or "barm" called for in this recipe is a solution of active yeast skimmed from working ale. Since modern commercially available beer and ale are not active enough, extra yeast has been added here. 2 Tablespoons sugar 2 eggs, beaten 1 cup warm ale or beer (105 degrees to 115 degrees F.) 1 package yeast 3 1/2 cups bread flour 1/2 cup butter, clarified Put 2 cups of flour and the yeast in a large mixing bowl. Add sugar. Add ale and eggs. Stir. Add enough additional flour to make a stiff dough. Turn out onto a floured board and knead until the dough is smooth and elastic. Form into a round loaf and place on a greased baking sheet. Cover and let rise in a warm place until doubled in bulk. (Optional: brush the loaf with milk for a shiny finish.) Bake at 400s F. for 25 to 30 minutes, or until the loaf sounds hollow when tapped. Remove the loaf from the oven and place it on a wire rack. When it has cooled completely, cut off the top crust and scoop out the center of the loaf. Cut the crumbs into pieces and mix with the clarified butter. Put the crumb mixture back into the loaf and cover with the top crust. Put the loaf in a warm oven for 10 minutes to heat the butter before serving. Remove from oven and serve hot. Makes one large loaf. Serves 6 to 8. (from "Take a Thousand Eggs or More", copyright 1990, 1997, Cindy Renfrow.) Cindy Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:11:03 PDT From: "pat fee" Subject: RE: SC - OOP - Cheese Bread Here is the "stuffed bread" recipe. Makes two long loaves 1 pkg yeast(dry or cube) I use a yeast that I get from a local boutique bakery. They collect it, by using wine grapes and letting the natural yeasts inoculate a starter mix. No it is not sourdough 1 tsp. Honey or sugar when I make the Italian version 1 Table spoon salt Optional, but it works better if you use it. 3 Table spoons good olive oil 3 1/2 cups flour (hard wheat, with i/2 cup of this being whole wheat flour to approximate period flour) 2 good size leeks chopped and cooked in butter 3 of cloves of garlic finely chopped and adder to the above and cooked with it 1 to 2 cups shredded cheese, of your choice. I use a three year old white english cheddar like cheese, or munster. Finely sliced cooked beef or ham, or other meats of your choice. This is really good done with venison or game bird. (add up to 1/2 pound per loaf. Make the bread as usual to the first raising stage. Place in a greased bowl and let raise till double. Cut in half and place on a floured board and roll out the dough half until about 1/2-1/4 inch thick. Sprinkle with 1/4 of cheese. Lay out the meat until the dough is covered to about 1/2 inch from all sides. arrange 1/2 of cooked vegies over meat. Top with another 1/4 of cheese. Roll up starting with long side tucking in ends. Place on a buttered flat pan to rise until double in bulk. Repeat with other half of ingredients. Bake in a warmed 350 degree oven 35 minutes until golden and it sounds hollow when tapped. Cool and serve. L.Katherinen Mc. Barony of Califia Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:11:23 PDT From: "pat fee" Subject: Re: SC - stuffed breads Yes this recipe is based on an Mediterranean recipe that appeared in a book called the Doge's Pantry. I'm at work now and don't have the ISBN# or the author's name handy but will post it if you want. The recipes are based on pages found in a palace in Fluoresce Italy during a restoration. in the middle 60's L.Katherine Mc Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:58:22 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Foods: How to Fake It! To: Cooks within the SCA > What are they filled wth? Barmakiya is meat and stuff between two > layers of bread/pastry like stuff, and Sanbusak is a fried dough > filled with stuffing, but off hand I can't think of period recipes I > would describe as "filled rolls." Examples? The leftovers wrapped in bead dough mentioned in the Domostroi... -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 17:01:09 -0600 From: "margaret" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for Recipes and Documentation To: , "Cooks within the SCA" > My first thought was that yeast-raised bread with meat stuffing didn't > really exist in our time period, did it? Yeast-raised breads were pretty > much post-period, weren't they? Any help with period recipes for the > above would be appreciated. > > Alys Katharine Yeast raised breads are fairly common in any culture that drinks ale. The yeast that ferments ale is the same yeast that is used for bread. Yeast breads with meat stuffings are a different matter. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is a Sicilian dish presumably adopted from the Moors. I think the lack of recipes may stem from the fact that bread was a price and quality controlled food in most of Europe. The standards often worked against new and uncontrolled types of bread with feastday limitation being put on the preparation of fancy and filled breads. Another consideration is that breads in Medieval Europe were baked and used or sold over several days. Meat stuffed yeast bread is more perishable than other bread or hard shelled pies. Bear Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:29:32 -0600 From: Michael Gunter Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A question pardon if it has been asked To: Cooks within the SCA > So would it not be a logical thought that other stuff may have > > been presented this way? [as Rastons. Bread crumbs hollowed out of a loaf, mixed with butter and put back in the loaf] Well, the first thing that comes to mind are the lobster rolls. To make Lobster-Loaves. PICK out all the Meat of three little Lobsters shred it a little; take a piece of Butter, and brown it with Flour in a Sauce-pan: the stir in a very little Onion and Parsley shred very fine, and put in a little Pepper, a Spoonful of Anchovy Liquor, three or four Spoonfuls of good Gravy, three Yolks of Eggs well beat; stir all these over the Fire in the brown Butter, then put in the Lobster, and stir it a little together: Take three French Rolls, and cut a round Piece off the top of each, and pick out the Crumb, but do not Break Holes through the Sides of the Bread; fill up the Roll with the Mixture you have prepared; put on the Piece of Top you cut off, close and tie them round with a Piece of Tape: Make some Dripping boiling hot in your Frying-pan; and when you have just dipt the Roll in Milk, throw it in to the Pan-full of scalding Liquor: When they are crisp, take them out, and take off the Tape: Be sure to put in three times as much Parsly as Onion. Thus you may do Shrimp or Oyster-Loaves. http://tudorcook.blogspot.com/ > Anne de la Mare Gunthar Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:51:00 -0500 From: Gretchen Beck Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A question pardon if it has been asked To: Cooks within the SCA --On Friday, January 18, 2008 3:41 PM -0500 Amy Cooper wrote: > I don't have a heck of a lot of experience redacting. I *think* I get the > gist of the recipe (making a sort of roux-thickened lobster sauce to put > into the bread bowls), but what is meant by Piece of Tape? And is it > saying to deep-fry the taped bowls? It's probably a sort of string -- perhaps something like bias tape. The OED has Tape: 1. a. A narrow woven strip of stout linen, cotton, silk, or other textile, used as a string for tying garments, and for other purposes for which flat strings are suited, also for measuring lines, etc. dating to 1000 So, yup either deep frying or pan frying with the tape on to keep the roll together. toodles, margaret Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:53:33 -0600 From: Michael Gunter Subject: [Sca-cooks] Lobster Roll To: Cooks within the SCA > but what is meant by Piece of Tape? And is it saying> to deep-fry > the taped bowls? My guess would be to take a strip of parchment paper and put over the seam where the top was cut off, then secured with string. And the roll isn't so much deep fried as panfried in maybe a half inch or less of hot oil. Still, it looks really good. > Ilsebet Gunthar Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:53:36 -0500 From: "Ron Carnegie" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A question pardon if it has been asked To: "Cooks within the SCA" My cooking experience is more 18th century than pre 17th century. So to is my technical knowledge of period terms for textiles. Sometimes it applies, sometimes it does not. In the 18th century however, tape is a long thin piece of cloth, like a ribbon. The term still survives today as "bias tape". Bureacratic "red tape" is supposed to come from the same textile. Your receipt certainly seems to be applying to the same thing, since it mentions tying it around the rolls. String ought to work just as well. It is not clear to me if the receipt is calling for deep frying or pan frying. I suspect pan frying, I suspect deep frying would be better though. Ranald de Balinhard Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:15:46 -0600 From: Michael Gunter Subject: [Sca-cooks] More on lobster rolls To: Cooks within the SCA I found the archive page with a picture of the roll. http://tudorcook.blogspot.com/2007_06_01_archive.html Looks like it is quite a bit out of period, though. Gunthar Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:48:58 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn pan and bread bowls To: "Cooks within the SCA" Both of the Harleian recipes for Rastons call for cutting them "round about (or above) in the manner of a crown" then recovering the bottom and its contents with the top. How this is done depends on one's concept of a crown, but any dagging or crenelation would be easier done in a larger loaf. I think a loaf of eight ounces to one pound would best suit this dish. Bear >> Rastons certainly present an argument for filling rolls with butter >> soaked bread, but translating that into a larger-than-a-roll piece >> of bread filled with stew is a bit of a stretch. > > I thought Rastons were relatively large. And apparently I thought > wrong, or at least not absolutely correct: the 15th century recipe > doesn't specify size or number of servings. On the other hand, since a > cover at a feast often served two, it might be considered a large > roll. > > Adamantius Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:56:43 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Christiane Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bread bowls To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org OK, did anyone mention bazmaward from "A Baghdad Cookery Book" for things served in a bread loaf? It's almost identical to the chicken in bread loaf from Sicily; both dishes call for loaves of bread, hollowed out, stuffed with cooked meat and nuts pounded finely with liquid (vinegar and rosewater, in the case of bazmaward, straight lemon juice for the pasticcio; walnuts in the bazmaward, but almonds and pistachios for the Sicilian dish, as they are plentiful on that island). The main difference is that bazmwards are sliced "into medium elongated pieces" and packed into an earthenware dish with mint leaves, and the Sicilian dish is baked again on its own. But it is sliced and served cold like bazmaward, and like bazmaward, even better-tasting the next day. The pasticcio, because it is associated with ibn al-Thumna, seems to be a reworking of bazmaward for him by his creative cooks. But that will just have to be speculation because they did not leave us behind a recipe, and I a m sure that the way it has descended to us these days leaves out things the original probably included. It definitely ain't soup or stew in a bread bowl, though. Gianotta Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:52:18 -0500 (EST) From: Christiane Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Meat/Bread to make ahead To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Dame Serena gave her version of the pasticcio; here's mine: 1 boneless chicken breast 1 or 2 boneless chicken thighs (depends how big they are) Spices: 1 TBS of sumac 1 TBS of white pepper 1 TBS of ground cubebs 1 TBS of cumin 1/2 cup of white balsamic vinegar sea salt to taste olive oil for sauteeing 1 cup of coarsely chopped fresh parsley 1 or 2 TBS of capers (the ones in brine, not vinegar) 1 large onion, minced finely Juice from two large lemons 2 eggs 1 cup chicken broth 1/4 cup of toasted almonds 1/2 a cup of pistachios 1 large round loaf of Italian bread Sautee the chicken with the spices, onions, and olive oil; when the onions have caramelized, deglaze with the vinegar and let cook until the vinegar mostly evaporates and mellows. Set aside to cool. Take your bread load, take a slice off the top to act as a lid, and hollow it out. I use a small ice cream scoop. Reserve the bread chunks. Some you can use let get stale and use any time you need bread crumbs to thicken a dish; you'll really need only about 1 or 2 cups of bread crumbs at the most for this recipe. Grind the nuts in a food processor, put in a mixing bowl with the bread crumbs. When the chicken has cooled, grind that in the food processor, using the juices from the pan and a bit of olive oil to create a paste. Add that to the bowl as well, and mix everything with the chicken broth, eggs, and lemon juice. Finally, stir in the capers and parsley. Put the mixture into the hollowed breadloaf, and bake at 350 degrees for 20 minutes. Cool and wrap for travel. You can cut it into wedges like a cake. This also tastes wonderful if you add a bit of garlic when cooking the chicken and white wine instead of vinegar. Gianotta Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 19:34:40 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OK, this is weird ... To: "Christiane" , "Cooks within the SCA" I wonder how old this recipe is. There is a calzone recipe in Martino in which he suggests a filling of almond paste, but the phrasing leaves open the possibility of other fillings. The combination of ingredients make me think this might be Renaissance or even Medieval in origin. The cherry jam called for is not necessarily sweet. It might be sour or tart depending on the cherries used. Bear <<< I was poking around on one of those "Itanglish" Websites that give you details about festivals and events off the beaten tourist track in Italy and found a recipe for onion calzones from Puglia. The filling was fried onions, black olives, sugar, sultanas, and ... A spoonful of cherry jam. I'm half-tempted to try this out. The combination of sweet and savory flavors is intriguing. Gianotta >>> Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 21:10:22 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for OK, this is weird ... To: Cooks within the SCA I just googled onion calzones from Puglia and found this http://www.deliciousitaly.com/ricetta.php?id=154®ione_id=12 Onion Calzone A well made calzone is a meal in itself and comes as close to a Cornish pastie as we have found in Italy. ingredients For the pasta: 500 gr flour, 50 gr sugar, 100 gr extra virgin olive oil, 150 gr white wine, 1 spoon of fine salt. For the filling: 500gr onions or leeks, black olives, sultanas, cherry jam. making it Mix all the pasta ingredients together and work well until a decent dough has been formed. Divide the dough into two parts and with one half form a classic calzone shape onto which the filling should be placed. The onions or leeks for the filling should first be lightly fried in olive oil and salt. To them 50gr sugar should be added as well as the olives (without the stones), the sultanas (softened up with warm water) and a spoonful of jam pasted over the onions. Then close the calzone with the other half of the pasta or pastry and seal the edges with egg yolk beaten with sugar. Cook in the oven at 180? for around 25/30 minutes. Johnnae Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 21:20:59 -0700 From: Dragon Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for OK, this is weird ... To: Cooks within the SCA Johnna Holloway did speak thusly: I just googled onion calzones from Puglia and found this http://www.deliciousitaly.com/ricetta.php?id=154®ione_id=12 Onion Calzone ---------------- End original message. --------------------- Interesting, it seems that it would be a lot sweeter than I had thought. While probably not dessert sweet, it is definitely not exactly a savory item either. I also find it interesting that it says to lightly fry the onions, I would cook them considerably longer over low heat to caramelize them. Though if you use leeks, you definitely do not want to do that as they get bitter when they brown instead of sweet like an onion. Other than those two things, it sounds almost as I had envisioned it. Dragon Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 21:27:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Maria Buchanan Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for OK, this is weird ... To: Cooks within the SCA I'm assuming that's 180 C. Maria Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 07:24:35 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for OK, this is weird ... To: "Cooks within the SCA" <<< I'm assuming that's 180 C. Maria >>> That is a curious temperature, 356 F. I would have expected 200 C to 260 C (400-500 F) with 215 C (425 F) or 230 C (450 F) being the most common. Bear Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 09:47:01 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for OK, this is weird ... To: Cooks within the SCA I did some more searching and came across these mentions: http://www.cooking.com/recipes/static/recipe1476.htm calls for 475 degrees F Supposed to be a recipe in Nancy Harmon Jenkins Flavors of Puglia. I did check and Culinaria Italy doesn't mention it. Johnnae Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 10:34:02 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Christiane Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OK, this is weird ... To: Terry Decker , Cooks within the SCA <<< I wonder how old this recipe is. There is a calzone recipe in Martino in which he suggests a filling of almond paste, but the phrasing leaves open the possibility of other fillings. The combination of ingredients make me think this might be Renaissance or even Medieval in origin. The cherry jam called for is not necessarily sweet. It might be sour or tart depending on the cherries used. Bear >>> It very well could be Renaissance or medieval in origin. That's the problem with these regional recipes; they're completely undocumented. As far as the jam goes, I'm with you in thinking it could be a sour cherry jam. The only local Puglian jam recipe I have been able to find so far has sugar, cinnamon, and sherry in it, but that's only how that particular cook does it, and sour cherry jam is available commercially there. Gianotta Edited by Mark S. Harris bread-stuffed-msg Page 19 of 19