bread-stamps-msg - 3/19/08 Stamps used to leave insignia in bread loaves. NOTE: See also the files: bread-msg, brd-mk-flat-msg, breadmaking-msg, yeasts-msg, BNYeast-art, religion-msg, leavening-msg, casting-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:05:23 -0800 From: "Deborah Schumacher" Subject: SC - Byzantine Bread Stamps I was perusing some Byzantine links and came up with these really neat bread presses. Looking at them I'm not so sure how they would be used though. Pressed into flat breads? Or just indented into a normal round loaf before you bake it? Anyone have any ideas? here is the link to the Bread Stamps http://www.rom.on.ca/galleries/byzantine/byzdivbread.html Zoe Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:35:44 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Byzantine Bread Stamps These stamps aren't for general use. One is a Eucharist stamp, which would be used for imprinting the consecrated bread for Communion. The bread might have been similar to the modern Communion wafers or it might have been a small unleavened loaf. The other is a eulogia stamp for bread given to the faithful, which suggests that it was for loaves prepared for the Greek Orthodox Church for specific religious purposes. These stamps would like have been used only for sacremental baking. Depending on the dough and the manner of preparation, the loaves could have been pressed before being put in the oven or the stamps could have been heated in the oven and the bread pressed on them to bake. The second technique is similar to the method used to press baker's marks in loaves. Bear Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:13:59 -0500 From: "Alderton, Philippa" Subject: SC - Fw: Prosphora Stamps (was Byzantine Bread Stamps) I asked my Byzantine List, and just got a very interesting and detailed response on the usage of the bread stamps. I hope this helps- I found it very interesting. Phlip Philippa Farrour Caer Frig Southeastern Ohio - -----Original Message----- From: jgulka at pil.net To: BYZANS-L at lists.missouri.edu Date: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 12:38 PM Subject: Prosphora Stamps Philippa: From the dating of the Prosphora Seals ( Sphragis) you detail, the bread would have been leavened, as was the Byzantine traditional usage. The issue of leavened/unleavened was an issue manguÈ until the 11thc, when the issue of leavened vs unleavened emerged in high (rhetorically and theologically) as an issue in Greek/Latin practice. As is well known, the Latin use of unleavened bread (azyma) instead of leavened bread in the Eucharist was condemned by the Greeks (among other reasons) as being a "Jewish practice", and hence suspect of creeping "Judaizing".Incidentally, when in 1054 the Latin Azyma had been condemned by Patriarch Michael Cerularios, the practice of unleavened bread on the part of the Armenians was at the same time attacked by the mystical theologian Nicetas Stethatos on the grounds of "Judaizing". Clearly, by 1274, the time of LYONS II,the term 'Azymite' had become highly significant to the Byzantine mind as connoting one with Latin or "Latinizing" views. The stamp/sphragis would have been sealed to the topmost center of the loaf, where, despite the portions of the loaf removed for specific commemorations, it became the central locus for the ritual re-enactment of the passion narrative. Josef Gulka http://www.rom.on.ca/galleries/byzantine/byzdivbread.html Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:56:29 -0500 From: "Alderton, Philippa" Subject: SC - Fw: Prosphora Here's more on the bread molds. Phlip Philippa Farrour Caer Frig Southeastern Ohio - -----Original Message----- From: Peter Raftos To: phlip at morganco.net Date: Thursday, March 16, 2000 1:04 AM Subject: Prosphora >Hi Phillipa, >I've seen your posts concerning prosphora on Byzans-L and the SCA cooks >list. As you know, bread and grain were "controlled substances" - >especially in C'nople- because of their sometime scarcity as well as the >fact that commercial life was controlled in a pretty sophisticated way >( see the 9th C Book of the Eparch by Leo VI >To eparchikon biblion. The book of the Eparch. >Ed as Le livre du Prefet. With an introd. by Ivan Dujcev. (London: >Variorum Reprints, 1970) >English trans. The Book of the Eparch. Byzantine Guilds, Professional >and Commerical Ordinannces of Leo VI. C. 895 from the Book of the >Eparch, trans. E. H. Freshfield, (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, >1938) >English trans. Book of the Prefect, trans A.E.R.Boak, Journal of >Economic and Business History, 1 (1929), 600-19 ) > >This book out lines wonderful things like when fires had to be put out >and who had exemptions from specific rules. Breadmaking and supply were >a "big deal" which for many of us, with supermarkets and >industrialisation, is literally a thing of the past ( >http://crh.choate.edu/history/_discfall/00000087.htm ). Outside of the >church I believe that bread stamps were used to denote point of origin >and to control the supply of bread ( not to mention paying taxes). The >church's practice seems to be a vestigal imperial practice which may go >back to Late Antiquity or earlier. I have no references yet as it is >something that needs more research time than I have. Modern prosphora >stamps can be of wood or plastic. In the past they have been made of >wood, ceramic, and metal. Designs have varied over the ages but have >settled at one (at least in the Greek Orthodox Church). Anti-doron is >the bread given out to those not participating in communion. I can't >recall seeing it stamped but it may have been in Byzantine times for the >reasons mentioned above. > >Here are some helpful links. The first link is the most comprehensive >and also has Orthodox Paschal, Lenten and Festal recipes as well as a >recipe for Kollyva...boiled grain offering for the dead, a lovely pagan >practice which goes back to Ancient Greece. The other two are useful for >understanding the Orthodox perspective on bread. > >http://www.prosphora.org/ >http://www.theologic.com/oflweb/inchurch/prosphor.htm >http://www.suc.org/culture/library/religious/Lord_Teach_Us_To_Pray/Prosphor a.html > >If you have a local Orthodox church they sometimes have a good library >and will often let you research there if not borrow books. Yes these >books have an orthodox ecclesiastical bent but if you read between the >lines much information and other sources can be culled. Another nice >essay on Byzantium is to be found at found at >http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/epstein_trends.html > > And did you know sauerkraut is period for Byzantium. Monasteries today >still make the stuff. Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 19:22:43 -0700 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: "Laura C. Minnick" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roman Baker's Mark photo >Forwarded this news from SCA-bakers. Saw the photo and it's wonderfully >clear. I only wonder how it would be used. I thought the marks were put >UNDER the loaf..... > >Aoife > >Photo of roman Baker's mark: >http://www.ancient-art.com/images/a511.jpg If you put it underneath it's obliterated during baking. Baker's stamps (at least to my knowledge) in the MA were done on top. I'll bet Bear has more info though... 'Lainie -thought it was cute though- a foot, with lettering... From: "Terry Decker" To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roman Baker's Mark photo Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 00:02:39 -0500 Jeremy Fletcher is the man when you are discussing baker's marks. He is about the only person who has done any recent research on them. In fact, the original message on the bakers list was directed to him. Bear >If you put it underneath it's obliterated during baking. Baker's stamps (at >least to my knowledge) in the MA were done on top. I'll bet Bear has more >info though... > >'Lainie Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 16:20:23 -0700 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: david friedman Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roman Baker's Mark photo 'Lainie wrote (about a month ago): >If you put it underneath it's obliterated during baking. Baker's stamps (at >least to my knowledge) in the MA were done on top. I'll bet Bear has more >info though... My understanding of baker's marks (this is from memory from talking with Wulfric the Mad Baker/Jeremy Fletcher of the West Kingdom) is that the baker's mark is a little lump of some shape, that being the shape you want imprinted in your bread, and you put it under the loaf while it bakes; when you take the loaf out of the oven and remove the baker's mark, its shape is baked into the bottom of the bread. Elizabeth/Betty Cook From: "Lis" To: , Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roman Baker's Mark photo Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 15:17:48 -0400 Thanks for your comments re: bakers marks. I was puzzling over this one as well. It makes no sense to place the mark on the top of the loaf, as that would impede the rise. In addition, I've seen many images of loaves from our period of study, and NONE of those images showed a stamp, mark or shape, etc on top, though many DID show other marks such as cuts common to improve the rise of the bread in the oven. I've looked at the websites and other webinfo on the subject and I'm not convinced. However, this is why I was puzzled by the assertion that this was a baker's mark----it wouldn't be possible to put this one UNDER the loaf due to it's handle. Is there any reason to suppose that the marks weren't on the SIDE? I'm aware that baking practices in ancient Rome and M.A./Ren England wouldn't necessarily be the same, but.... Aoife Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 01:24:31 -0400 From: John Kemker Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Need help with a translation [Slightly OT] To: Cooks within the SCA Carole Smith wrote: > Wulfric told me you have to leave the baker's mark in the bread while > it bakes. > > Cordelia That's what I gathered, merely from his pictures. He shows the baker's mark sitting on the hearthstone in his oven. He then places the loaves of risen dough on the marks and bakes them. When the bread comes out, he pops the mark off the bottom of the loaf and you can see the impression on the bottom. Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:45:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Kathleen Madsen Subject: [Sca-cooks] Squirrels and Bread Marks To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org BTW, there was much talk last week about the baker's mark that Master Wulfric uses. He was out at our house on Saturday doing a cooking demo for the Barony, making sausages and bread. The marker, he says, almost always makes a clear impression where the word that is part of it can usually be read. The marker is a 1.75 inch diameter disk and you can see it on his website. http://www.whirlwind-design.com/madbaker/marks.html I have two loaves baking in the oven right now for this weekend's event. I know, I know, it should be fresh - but I work two Farmer's Market's on Friday's and my day is *completely* booked. I'm lucky if I can get an hour to nap between the two. ;) Eibhlin Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:59:27 -0400 From: "Saint Phlip" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Byzantine bread stamps To: "Cooks within the SCA" From the Byzantine List: <<< On both of these pages are Byzantine bread stamps. The second page has info on why they were used, but I wonder how they were used. Were bread loaves baked on top of them? Samia >>> -- Saint Phlip Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 08:26:35 -0400 From: "Saint Phlip" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Byzantine bread stamps To: "Cooks within the SCA" More on bread stamps, from a modern site, that gives links to early information. http://www.prosphora.org/ Edited by Mark S. Harris bread-stamps-msg Page 7 of 7