brd-manchets-msg - 6/12/09

Small medieval bread loaves of the finest white flour.

NOTE: See also the files: bread-msg, breadmaking-msg, flour-msg, trenchers-msg, brd-mk-flat-msg, brd-mk-sour-msg, boulting-msg, brd-mk-ethnic-msg, grains-msg.

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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

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Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: marian at world.std.com (marian walke)
Subject: Re: Medieval cooks didnt make bread
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 16:41:30 GMT

>>In London, there were *two* guilds of bakers, the Brown Bakers and the White
>>Bakers.  (One baked only brown bread, the other only white bread.)
>>
>>    Franz Joder von Joderhuebel (Michael F. Yoder) [mfy at sli.com]

>Interesting indeed! Where did you find this? And were both
>guilds subject to the same Assize of Loaves? (or is it Assize of
>Bread?)

>Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, O.L. (Mike Andrews)
>Barony of Namron, Kingdom of Ansteorra

Old Marian commenting here:
 (major source: C Anne Wilson, "Food and Drink in Britain" - at least, I 
think that's the title - my much-used paperback lost its cover a few 
years ago! Items in square brackets [] are my own comments.)

Medieval bread was not just divided into white and brown - there were 
several gradations, and since the same names were not used in all places, 
there is some confusion about where each kind of bread was placed in the 
spectrum from whitest to brownest.  However, quoting from Wilson:

"The best white wheaten bread, made of the finest flour which had been two 
or three times sieved through woollen and linen bolting cloths, was in 
the Middle Ages called wastel bread (from the Norman French GASTEL or 
cake) or pandemain (probably originally from PANIS DOMINI, the 
sacramental bread, because that was made of the most delicate flour 
obtainable....  Cocket, another fine white bread, but a slightly less 
expensive one, was produced until about the beginning of the 16th 
centruy.  But before that time the name manchet had begun to be applied 
to white bread of the finest quality.  Manchets were made up as rather 
small loaves: in Elizabeth I's reign they were supposed to weigh 'eight 
ounces into the oven, and six ounces out', and forty were to be made out 
of the flour bolted from one bushel of corn [i.e., wheat].  Bread 
described as being 'of whole wheat' was of wheat flour more coarsely 
sieved than that used for wastel or cocket; while a still coarser and 
more branny wheat bread was made under the name of 'bis' or 'treet'."

Wilson says all these breads were taken into account in the Assize of 
Bread, which was in operation (with many amendments) from 1267 (our 
earliest extant version) through 1815.  There may be earlier versions no 
longer extant; it is said to date back to King John (ca 1200).  In large 
towns there were variants of the Assize to cover local variations in bread.

"In London the white bakers and the brown or TORTE bakers for a long time 
had separate guilds.  The 'White Book' of the city of London laid down 
'that a tourte baker shall not have a bolter nor make white bread'.  His 
brown bread was to include all the husks and bran in the meal, just as it 
came from the mill.  But he was permitted to bake the dough which people 
brought to him ready made up [a function bakers served for people who 
made their own dough, but did not have their own ovens], and to make 
horsebread of peas and beans.  In Ipswich, on the other hand, the bakers 
who baked the fine white loaves...were also allowed to make treet bread 
from the leavings, after they had sieved their meal and removed the 
whitest and finest flour....

The same farthing could buy you a given amount of finest white wastel 
loaf, or twice as much brown or treet loaf.  It bought you a loaf of 
cocket a little larger than the finest white wastel or a wholewheat loaf 
weighing half again as much as the cocket or a loaf of "other cereals" 
weighing twice as much as the cocket.  However, the actual amount of 
bread you got for that farthing varied from Assize to Assize; the object 
was to keep the price of bread steady, and the weight of bread you got 
for your farthing varied according to the success of harvests and other 
economic factors.

"The rougher breads of servants and laborourers and their families were 
made of of maslin [mixed rye and wheat] or the local grain: rye in 
Norfold, barley in northwest England, lowland Scotland, parts of Wales 
and Cornwall, oats in upland Wales and the Pennines and the Scottish 
highlands...."  [So what kind of dark bread you ate depended on where you 
lived as well as your social status.  The reason for these regional 
variations was that wheat demands a longer growing season and better soil 
than were present in the upland and rocky areas.  And remember, these 
variations were all just for Britain, which all together is only about 
half the size of the state of California.  Imagine the variations you get 
when you're looking at the whole of Europe.  This is why there is no ONE 
"Medieval Bread"!]

As for the combining of the two London guilds: According to Wilson, in 
1304 there where 32 brown and 21 white bakers.  In 1574 there were 36 
brown and 62 white bakers.  They joined in the 17th century, and the 
separate guild of brown bakers disappeared.

[However, it should be noted that lots of craft guilds amalgamated as time 
went on, probably to have more clout as one large than as several small 
guilds.  In the 16th C you start seeing combined guilds of "Carpenters 
and Joiners" or "Masons and Tilers" or "Weavers and Dyers" or "Cooks and 
Innkeepers."  So joining the brown and white bakers may have reflected 
the temper of the times as much as the demand for brown bread in London.]

--Old Marian
(Marian of Edwinstowe, Carolingia, East Kingdom (marian at world.std.com) 


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: steve.mercer at network.com (Steve E. Mercer)
Subject: bread (was Re: meadmaking help.....)
Summary: bread recipe, manchet
Organization: Network Systems Corporation
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 23:09:00 GMT

>> Oh please, where?  I've been looking for period recipes for bread for
>> a decade, and not only have found none, but have found no rumor of any.
>> The closest I seem to be able to find are cakes and cookies, which of
>> course are made quite differently.  Could you point me to these references
>> to bread making, and to any others?
>> -- Angharad/Terry

From "The Good Huswife's Haindmaide for the Kitchen", 1594

THE MAKING OF FINE MANCHET
Take half a bushell of fine flower twise boulted, and a gallon 
of faire luke warm water, almost a handful of white salt, and 
almost a pinte of yest, then temper all these together, without 
any more liquor, as hard as ye can handle it: then let it lie 
halfe an hower, then take it up, and make your Manchetts, and 
let them stand almost an hower in the oven.  Memorandum, that 
of every bushell of meale may be made five and twentie caste of 
bread, and every loaf to way a pounde besyde the chesill.

Some notes about this recipe:
Information from Elisabeth David, "English Bread and Yeast Cookery -
New American Edition", Biscuit Books Inc., Newton Massachusetts USA,
Copyright 1994, ISBN 0-9643600-0-4

Manchet was a soft white bread.  It was eaten by the rich,
although probably only in relatively small quantity and as an
alternative, or in addition, to more ordinary brown or yeoman's
bread.

A bushel of flour weighed 56-60 pounds.

Boulting is a process of sifting the flour through very fine 
cloth.  This separates the finest, whitest flour from the rest 
of the stuff (bran, coarser flour, etc.).  

Liquor in this context is the baker's term for any liquid added
to the dough.  It does not imply an alcoholic liquid.

A 'caste' of bread was either two or three loaves according to 
size, two manchets being reckoned as one loaf.  In this recipe 
there would have been two loaves (four manchets) to the caste, 
each manchet weighing eight ounces.  One hundred manchets could 
be made from one bushel of flour.

Chesill is the stuff left over after boulting the flour.

Later (out of the SCA period) recipes for manchet include other
ingredients such as butter, lard, milk, and eggs.
---
Justin Silvanus
Barony of Nordskogen, Principality of Northshield, Middle Kingdom
Steve Mercer
steve.mercer at network.com


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: shafer at ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
Subject: Re: bread (was Re: meadmaking help.....)
Organization: NASA Dryden Flight Research Center
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 04:10:41 GMT

Elizabeth David, in her book "English Bread and Yeast Cookery", has a
chapter titled "Manchets and Mayn and Payndemayn", which includes the
recipe posted about two messages back from this, plus one from Gervase
Markham, "The English Hus-wife", 1615, and a modern version.  (Mostly
scaled down, since the posted recipe wanted half a bushel of flour and
David notes that a bushel was 56 to 60 lb, which makes somewhat more
bread than many of us are interested in).  Scattered throughout the
book are information about how bread was cut in c. 1508 (from "the
Boke of Kervynge) and a number of period and near-period recipes
(Kendal Oatcakes from 1698, for example).

If you want to know everything to know about English bread and yeast
cookery, buy this book.  It's really excellent--it tells you
everything from which stone to use in your mill onward.  It's in print
in a US version and is ISBN 0-9643600-0-4 (the original, British
edition has a different ISBN).  Even if you never bake a single thing
from it, you'll enjoy reading it and you'll learn a lot from it.

This book finally explained to me why English supermarket white bread
is so dreadful (even worse than Wonder Bread)--it contains, quite
legally, a great deal more water than does its US counterpart.
--
Mary Shafer                                                
SR-71 Chief Engineer   NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
shafer at ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov  
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html


Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:52:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: SC - Bread recipes

Here they are, from the Good Hufwifes Handmainde for the Kitchen. Enjoy!

toodles, margaret

The making of fine Manchet

Take halfe a bushell of fine flower twice bolted, and a gallon of faire
luke warm water, almost a handful of white salt, and almost a pinte of
yest, then temper all these together, witrhout any more liquor, as hard
as ye can handle it: then let it lie halfe an hower, then take it up and
make your Manchetts, and let them stande almost an hower in the oven. 
Memorandum, that of every bushell of meale may be made five and twentie
calle (?) of bread, and everie loafe to way a pounde beside the chesill
(?)

The making of manchets after my Ladie Graies use

Take two peckes of fine flower, which must be twise boulted, if you will
have your manchet verie faire: Then lay it in a place where ye doe use
to lay your dowe for your bread, and make a litle hole in it, and take a
quart of faire water blood warme, and put in that water as much leaven
as a crab, or a pretie big apple, and as much white salt as will into an
egshell, and all to breake your leven in the water, and put into your
flower halfe a pinte of good Ale yest, and so stir this liquor among a
litle of your flower, so that ye must make it but thin at the first
meeting, and then cover it with flower, and if it be in the winter, ye
must keepe it verie warm, and in summer it shall not need so much heate,
for in the Winter it will not rise without warmeth.  Thus let it lie two
howers and a halfe: then at the second opening take more liquor as ye
thinke will serve to wet al the flower.  Then put in a pinte and a halfe
of good yest and so all to breake it in short peeces, after ye have well
laboured it, and wrought it five or sixe tymes, so that yee bee sure it
is throughlie mingled together, so continue labouring it, still it come
to a smooth paste, and be well ware at the second opening that yee put
not in too much liquor sodenlie, for then it wil run and if ye take a
little it will be stiffe, and after the second working it must lie a
good quarter of an hower, and keep it warme: then take it up to the
moulding board, and with as much speede as is possible to be made, mould
it up, and let it into the Oven, of one pecke of flower ye may make ten
caste of Manchets faire and good.

(Then there is a recipe that appears to be puff pastry of some sort)

To make leavened bread
Take five yolkes of Egs, and a litle peece of Butter as big a Walnut,
one handfull of verie fine flower, and make al these in paste, and all
to beat it with a rolling pin, till it be as thin as a paper leafe, then
take sweet Butter and melt it, and rub over all your paste therewith
with a feather: then roll up your paste softly as ye would roll up a
scroll of paper, then cut them in peeces of three inches long, and make
them flat with your hands, and lay them upon a sheet of cleane paper,
and bake them in an Oven or panne, but the Oven may not bee too hot, and
they most bake halfe and houre, then take some sweete butter and melt
it, and put that info your paste when it commeth out of the Oven, and
when they are verie wet, so that they be not drie, take them out of yoru
butter, and lay them in a faire (ash? word obscured) and cast upon them
a litle Sugar, and if you please, Synanion and Ginger, and serve them
forth.


Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:16:28 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Plum Pudding

To get back on subject, the penny loaf was the price of a loaf of bread
under the Assize of Bread established in 1266.  There were three
qualities of flour listed and three different weights of loaf.  In terms
of 17th and 18th century recipes, what is usually meant is the penny
white loaf (a manchet) which weighed between 6 and 8 ounces.  A wheat or
brown loaf would weigh 12 to 16 ounces.  

Elizabeth David recommends using 81 to 85 percent extraction wheat meal
with a small proportion of unbleached white flour enriched with milk and
eggs to approximate Jacobean or Georgian manchets.  

So, my guess at a 1 lb. loaf is half off.

Bear


Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:58:26 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: SC - beer bread recipe (was re:  small feasts) 

<snip>

My current project is to produce a period manchet.  My first attempt
produced what I call Francis Drake's bowling balls.  My second attempt
was much better, producing roll-like breads with an exterior like a
brotchen and a muffinish interior.  The color was off due to the choice
of flours.  I'll post a full report sometime next week after I sort out
some problems with the baking temperature.  I hope you will do the same
with the beer bread.

Bear


Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:36:23 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - bread recipes--??

> Does anyone know where I might find some period bread recipes? Also, does
> anyone know what you're supposed to do with rolled oats to make oatcakes?
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Isabelle

Since baking was a seperate art from cooking and had a strong guild, there
are very few recipes for bread among the cooking texts.  Four are known to
have appeared prior to 1600.  A fifth was mentioned in passing on the list,
but I have not seen a copy of it.  Just after 1600, there are a number of
recipes for bake goods which were probably in use before the turn of the
century.

You can find the recipes online in Stefan's Florilegium, but I think copying
a couple pages from a handout I'm preparing will be a little quicker.  I
think you can find redactions for all of these in the Florilegium or
Cariadoc's Miscellany.

Bear

The Recipes

In the European corpus of recipes from 500 C.E. to 1600 C.E., there are four
known recipes for bread.

Brede and Rastons

<snip - See recipe in the bread-msg file. - Stefan]

        Harleian MS 279, approx. 1430, as taken from Austin, Thomas, Two
Fifteenth-Century Cookery-Books.

Bread from Platina

<snip - See recipe in the bread-msg file. - Stefan]

        Platina's De Honesta Voluptate

To Make Fine Manchet

Take halfe a bushell of fine flour twise boulted, and a gallon of faire luke
warm water, almost a handful of white salt, and almost a pint of yest, then
temper these together without any more liquor, as hard as ye can handle it:
then let it lie halfe an hower, then take it up, and make your Manchetts,
and let them stande almost an hower in the oven. Memorandum, that of every
bushell of meale may be made five and twentie caste of bread, and every loaf
to way a pound besyde the chesill.

        The Good Huswife's Handmaide for the Kitchen, 1594

To Make Good Restons

<snip - See recipe in the bread-msg file. - Stefan]

        The Good Huswife's Handmaide for the Kitchen, 1594


Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:15:29 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bread consumption
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

>> The idea that there wasn't much bread served at a meal is a statement by
>> someone who is either interested in seige dining or hasn't done their
>> homework.
>>
>> Bear
>
> I'm not saying bread wasn't eaten. I was just wondering if
> it were used as an appetizer. I have also seen many instances
> of a small loaf of bread being the entire meal with a mug of
> ale or somesuch.
>
> Gunthar

Don't think of bread as an appetizer, think of it as the main course.  The
illustrations suggest that it was on the table from the beginning to the end
of the feast with the smaller plates of delicacies being presented to the
table over time.

A manchet and a mug of ale are breakfast fare and are sometimes served with
a small dish or fish or other meat.  When you are talking 2 1/2 pounds and a
gallon of brew per day, a manchet and mug are just a hair over 10 percent of
the daily fare.  When and where did they get the other 90 percent?

Bear


Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:50:07 -0500
From: "Michael Gunter" <countgunthar at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Final thoughts from my Laurel's Prize Tourney
	entry
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

LPT is finally over and my display didn't do too bad. People
liked the documentation with the color photographs and
that I displayed the dishes in the pans that they were
cooked in.  It also helped that it tasted good.

<snip>

The manchet loaf came out well with a nice thick and chewy
crumb. I did a major headslap moment just as I put the loaf into
the oven. I gave it a quick brush with milk to brown the top. And
then I realized I was making a manchet loaf and it should be as
white as possible. I, without thinking, fell into a modern mindset
to serve a browned loaf. Oops. But the interior was white as snow
and tasted very nice. Especially when sprinkled with a small pinch
of salt.

Two problems with the loaf were that it had risen oddly in the oven
and there was a split on the side and an air bubble had developed in
the top. One of the Laurels talking with me said she had watched
the cooks at Hampton Court make manchets as short cylinders and then
the top was dimpled with the thumbs. So, it appears I DID make the
loaf right because a "fix" had to be created. Now I know how to avoid
that problem next time.

<snip>

Gunthar


Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:00:31 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Final thoughts from my Laurel's Prize Tourney
	entry
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Sep 11, 2007, at 11:50 AM, Michael Gunter wrote:

> The manchet loaf came out well with a nice thick and chewy
> crumb. I did a major headslap moment just as I put the loaf into
> the oven. I gave it a quick brush with milk to brown the top. And
> then I realized I was making a manchet loaf and it should be as
> white as possible. I, without thinking, fell into a modern mindset
> to serve a browned loaf. Oops. But the interior was white as snow
> and tasted very nice. Especially when sprinkled with a small pinch
> of salt.
> Two problems with the loaf were that it had risen oddly in the oven
> and there was a split on the side and an air bubble had developed in
> the top. One of the Laurels talking with me said she had watched
> the cooks at Hampton Court make manchets as short cylinders and then
> the top was dimpled with the thumbs. So, it appears I DID make the
> loaf right because a "fix" had to be created. Now I know how to avoid
> that problem next time.

I think browning the loaf, per se, would not be a problem, as long as
you don't have a really thick, crisp, hard crust, but you probably do
want a reasonably hot oven so they're light inside with plenty of
oven spring.

I STR Gervase Markham discussing manchets and saying they should be
slashed with a sharp blade around the waist, or circumference, of the
loaf, before baking, and this makes them expand like a cylindrical
bellows into a sort of hatbox shape, with a nearly flat top and
nearly straight, vertical sides. At least this is what happened the
couple of times I followed those instructions. It also occurs to me
that, if one wanted to trim the crust off them in this shape, it
would be pretty easy, with relatively little waste. And then, of
course, Markham is not medieval, and there's no telling, without
reading other sources which may differ, whether what he says applies
to earlier period manchets.

Amazing, BTW, how much Dunkin' Donuts French Rolls look like manchets.

Adamantius


Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:10:03 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Final thoughts from my Laurel's Prize Tourney
	entry
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> I STR Gervase Markham discussing manchets and saying they should be
> slashed with a sharp blade around the waist, or circumference, of the
> loaf, before baking, and this makes them expand like a cylindrical
> bellows into a sort of hatbox shape, with a nearly flat top and
> nearly straight, vertical sides. At least this is what happened the
> couple of times I followed those instructions.

Hm... that sounds like what Elizabeth David says to do for "Cottage
Loaves" but those poof out at the top. Are the slashes vertical or
horizontal?
-- 
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net 


Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:26:56 -0500
From: "Michael Gunter" <countgunthar at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Manchet
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

> I think browning the loaf, per se, would not be a problem, as long as
> you don't have a really thick, crisp, hard crust,

My main "d'oh" reasoning is that the period mindset was to have things
as white as possible. Looking at illuminations of manchets or pretty much
any bread, they appear yellowish and not the dark brown that modern
folk seem to enjoy. So painting on the milk actually diminished the visual
appeal to a period diner.

The crust was thick and took a bit of sawing, especially on the bottom,
but it was not hard or unpleasant, it was plesantly chewy.

> but you probably do
> want a reasonably hot oven so they're light inside with plenty of
> oven spring.

The oven wasn't particularly hot. I baked it at 350 F for an hour. This
came from a modern bread recipe since there were no guidelines
to go on in the original recipe. The bread baked up just fine although
the inside was dense and chewy and not light. Still, it felt like real bread
should feel. Like the true staff of life. This was bread that could be grated
into proper breadcrumbs. Were I to make it again I'd add a little more
salt, but as I explained at the demo there aren't any references in period
manuals about spreading butter or anything on bread. I have seen
references about bread being sprinkled with a little salt. This bread
bore that out. A pinch of salt would have really brought out the flavor.

> I STR Gervase Markham discussing manchets and saying they should be
> slashed with a sharp blade around the waist, or circumference, of the
> loaf, before baking, and this makes them expand like a cylindrical
> bellows into a sort of hatbox shape, with a nearly flat top and
> nearly straight, vertical sides.

I think that would have worked for this recipe. The bread rose
in the oven which caused the scar on one side. Making it more of
a cylindar and slashing the sides would have prevented this. There
was also the air bubble at the top that either slashing or dimpling
the top would have prevented.

> Adamantius

Gunthar


Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:02:36 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Final thoughts from my Laurel's Prize Tourney
	entry
To: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Sep 11, 2007, at 1:10 PM, Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise wrote:

>> I STR Gervase Markham discussing manchets and saying they should be
>> slashed with a sharp blade around the waist, or circumference, of the
>> loaf, before baking, and this makes them expand like a cylindrical
>> bellows into a sort of hatbox shape, with a nearly flat top and
>> nearly straight, vertical sides. At least this is what happened the
>> couple of times I followed those instructions.
>
> Hm... that sounds like what Elizabeth David says to do for "Cottage
> Loaves" but those poof out at the top. Are the slashes vertical or
> horizontal?

He says to "mold it into manchets, round and flat; scotch around the
waist to give it leave to rise, and prick it with your knife at the
top".

The scotching I took to mean a simple slash running around the
circumference, or perhaps a series of cross-hatched diagonals running
around the edge. Either way, the effect seems to be the same: instead
of being blown up to a would-be spheroid, all the distortion is
allowed to take place in the region around the edge, and the almost-
flat top crust is simply lifted into the air -- a hatbox.

I suspect the poofing out at the top might be prevented somewhat by
the pricking with a knife.

Markham says "a gentle oven", BTW, Gunthar. You might try for 325F
and see what happens. Also, how big did you make them?

Adamantius


Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:54:36 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Manchet
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Sep 11, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Michael Gunter wrote:
> That's why I went with 350F. Any hotter and I didn't consider it a
> "gentle oven". I also just used the modern bread recommendation.
> 325F could work.

I'm thinking if you want them pale brown, with a soft crust, it might
work, especially if you scale them down a bit.

>> Also, how big did you make them?
>
> It was bigger than recommended in period. I probably would have
> been better off cutting the risen dough in two pieces and making two
> loaves. The loaf was formed in about a 6" diameter circle and 3" or so
> domed. It rose to around twice that size when baked.

My vague recollection is that manchets are bigger than a modern roll,
but otherwise a rather small loaf: maybe twice the size of a man's
fist when baked. Bearing in mind this is not trencher bread, but
"eating" bread, it probably equates to two decent-sized servings,
especially sensible if you trim them, and allow for the shared two-
serving cover concept... I haven't looked it up, but I wonder if the
name is intended to indicate size.

Adamantius


Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:38:01 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Manchet
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Ivan Day's manchets are pictured here along the side--
http://www.historicfood.com/baking.htm  I remember his
being a man's fist sized. There should be a picture someplace
among those that we took.
Brears also has pictures in his books.

Johnnae

Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
> My vague recollection is that manchets are bigger than a modern roll,
> but otherwise a rather small loaf: maybe twice the size of a man's
> fist when baked. Bearing in mind this is not trencher bread, but
> "eating" bread, it probably equates to two decent-sized servings,
> especially sensible if you trim them, and allow for the shared two-
> serving cover concept... I haven't looked it up, but I wonder if the
> name is intended to indicate size.
> Adamantius


Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:43:29 +1200
From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Manchet
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Michael Gunter wrote:
>> I think browning the loaf, per se, would not be a problem, as long as
>> you don't have a really thick, crisp, hard crust,
>
> The crust was thick and took a bit of sawing, especially on the bottom,
> but it was not hard or unpleasant, it was plesantly chewy.
>
>> but you probably do
>> want a reasonably hot oven so they're light inside with plenty of
>> oven spring.
>
> The oven wasn't particularly hot. I baked it at 350 F for an hour.  This
> came from a modern bread recipe since there were no guidelines
> to go on in the original recipe. The bread baked up just fine although
> the inside was dense and chewy and not light.

OK, this is one area where I can provide advice.  Assuming that you've
got the kneading and rising down pat, the one thing you can do to make
your bread a bit fluffier and give it a bit thinner crust is bake it at
a higher temperature.  350 is not hot enough for most breads. I do small
manchets at 400.  I suspect from your description of the bread
developing a crack and the crumb being dense that you may also have
kneaded in a bit more flour than is ideal.
-- 
Adele de Maisieres


Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:50:41 +1200
From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Manchet
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:

>>> Also, how big did you make them?

>> It was bigger than recommended in period. I probably would have
>> been better off cutting the risen dough in two pieces and making two
>> loaves. The loaf was formed in about a 6" diameter circle and 3"  
>> or so domed. It rose to around twice that size when baked.
>
> My vague recollection is that manchets are bigger than a modern roll,
> but otherwise a rather small loaf: maybe twice the size of a man's
> fist when baked. Bearing in mind this is not trencher bread, but
> "eating" bread, it probably equates to two decent-sized servings,
> especially sensible if you trim them, and allow for the shared two-
> serving cover concept... I haven't looked it up, but I wonder if the
> name is intended to indicate size.

That's certainly my understanding of manchets.  From 6-7 cups of flour,
I get six manchets about five inches in diameter.  (They'd be bigger
around if I were more of a bread-flattener, but I'm a show-off, and not
flattening means they come out nearly spherical on a good day).
-
Adele de Maisieres


Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:27:37 +1200
From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Manchet
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Michael Gunter wrote:
> Just for reference, does anyone have the data on a "hot" woodburning
> oven, such as when the coals are first raked out and the roasts are put
> in as compared to a "soft" or cooler oven? Is 400 about right? What
> temp would constitute a "soft" oven?

I'm not certain.  I know you _can_ heat up a brick bread oven _much_
hotter than 400F.  A quick peruse of the 'net suggested that some pizza
bakers think 850F is a reasonable sort of starting temperature and 500F
or so wouldn't be unusual for bread bakers.  How hot a medieval bread
baker would have started with and when he would have considered the oven
temperature "soft" I don't really know.

>> I suspect from your description of the bread
>> developing a crack and the crumb being dense that you may also have
>> kneaded in a bit more flour than is ideal.
>
> That might be, but the raw dough was still slightly sticky by the time
> it was placed in the oven. And it looks like, from the various descriptions
> I've found and have been mentioned on here that the dough is supposed
> to rise.

It is indeed supposed to rise :-)  The dough should have a nice silky
texture when you put it in the oven and not be very sticky at all.
Sticky vs. silky is as much a function of sufficient kneading as
proportion of flour, though.

Here's my manchet recipe-- it's definitely perioid, not period, but it
does include my kneading/raising/baking method.
http://cunnan.sca.org.au/wiki/Adele%27s_Manchet

> You may be very correct on the crumb. It's kind of hard to tell
> what it is supposed to be. One thing I'm basing my ideas of the crumb to
> be is the fact that bread was often "grated". Too light of a crumb and
> I don't think they would be grating even stale bread. A thicker crumb
> leads more to grating for decent crumbs.

I think mine would probably be dense enough to grate if there were ever
any left :-)

> Thank you for your input as well, the more information we get the  
> better chance we have of figuring all of this out.

No worries-- this is one of my favourite subjects.  And I'm teaching a
bread-making class this weekend, so this is helping me get all my
thoughts in order :-)
-- 
Adele de Maisieres


Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:51:37 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Final thoughts from my Laurel's Prize Tourney
	entry
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> The manchet loaf came out well with a nice thick and chewy
> crumb. I did a major headslap moment just as I put the loaf into
> the oven. I gave it a quick brush with milk to brown the top. And
> then I realized I was making a manchet loaf and it should be as
> white as possible. I, without thinking, fell into a modern mindset
> to serve a browned loaf. Oops. But the interior was white as snow
> and tasted very nice. Especially when sprinkled with a small pinch
> of salt.

If you look at the paintings with manchet loaves, they tend to be a light
golden brown.  It's the interiors that are supposed to be white.
Interestingly one of the experiments I did was with an ale barm that
imparted a brown color to the interior of the loaf.  I obviously need  
to run some tests on cleaning barm.

If you want to keep the loaf from getting too dark, don't put anything on it
and about halfway through the baking cover the loaves.

> Two problems with the loaf were that it had risen oddly in the oven
> and there was a split on the side and an air bubble had developed in
> the top. One of the Laurels talking with me said she had watched
> the cooks at Hampton Court make manchets as short cylinders and then
> the top was dimpled with the thumbs. So, it appears I DID make the
> loaf right because a "fix" had to be created. Now I know how to avoid
> that problem next time.
>
> Gunthar

Without seeing the full process, I can say that these problems are usually
caused by the yeast working too fast, the dough being raised at too high a
temperature or incomplete kneading.

Bear


Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:57:08 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Final thoughts from my Laurel's Prize Tourney
	entry
To: <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>,	"Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

>> I STR Gervase Markham discussing manchets and saying they should be
>> slashed with a sharp blade around the waist, or circumference, of the
>> loaf, before baking, and this makes them expand like a cylindrical
>> bellows into a sort of hatbox shape, with a nearly flat top and
>> nearly straight, vertical sides. At least this is what happened the
>> couple of times I followed those instructions.
>
> Hm... that sounds like what Elizabeth David says to do for "Cottage
> Loaves" but those poof out at the top. Are the slashes vertical or
> horizontal?
> -- 
> -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

The slash is around the circumference of the loaf.  It needs to be done with
a sharp blade to about one half inch depth.  It allows the loaf to expand
more from the oven spring and should produce a lighter crumb.

Bear


Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:08:43 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Manchet
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> My main "d'oh" reasoning is that the period mindset was to have things
> as white as possible. Looking at illuminations of manchets or pretty much
> any bread, they appear yellowish and not the dark brown that modern
> folk seem to enjoy. So painting on the milk actually diminished the  
> visual appeal to a period diner.
>
> The crust was thick and took a bit of sawing, especially on the  
> bottom, but it was not hard or unpleasant, it was plesantly chewy.

A basic dough of flour, water, yeast and salt baked at around 400 to 450
degrees should give you the light golden yellow crust.  Enriched doughs,
especially those made with milk or sugar, tend to produce darker crusts.

If you are looking for a white crust, check out German semmel rolls.

> The oven wasn't particularly hot. I baked it at 350 F for an hour.  This
> came from a modern bread recipe since there were no guidelines
> to go on in the original recipe. The bread baked up just fine although
> the inside was dense and chewy and not light. Still, it felt like real bread
> should feel. Like the true staff of life. This was bread that could be grated
> into proper breadcrumbs. Were I to make it again I'd add a little more
> salt, but as I explained at the demo there aren't any references in period
> manuals about spreading butter or anything on bread. I have seen
> references about bread being sprinkled with a little salt. This bread
> bore that out. A pinch of salt would have really brought out the  
> flavor.
>
> Gunthar

If you didn't have enough salt in the dough, your yeast may have been
over-active.  Salt moderates the yeast and the rise.

Bear


Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:14:21 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Manchet
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> My vague recollection is that manchets are bigger than a modern roll,
> but otherwise a rather small loaf: maybe twice the size of a man's
> fist when baked. Bearing in mind this is not trencher bread, but
> "eating" bread, it probably equates to two decent-sized servings,
> especially sensible if you trim them, and allow for the shared two-
> serving cover concept... I haven't looked it up, but I wonder if the
> name is intended to indicate size.
>
> Adamantius

As I recall, manchet is "eight ounces in, six ounces out."  That  
would make it about the size of petit pan or possibly a little larger.

Bear


Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 09:21:52 -0400
From: "Anne Murphy" <afmmurphy at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Manchet
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I have my grandmother's books from the late 19th and early 20th
century, when they were just starting to use gas. They're translating
the other way - giving temperatures for those who are perfectly used
to judging by feel.

A hot/quick oven was about 400 - anything from 375-425.

Medium/moderate etc was about 350.

Slow is about 325.

Now, this, of course, is for home ovens attached to wood or coal
stoves, not a professional brick bread oven. But it is what I was
going by when I was doing the Small Cakes a few years ago, and baked
them at 400, rather than the more SCA common 350, because the recipe
called for a quick oven...

AEllin

On 9/11/07, Michael Gunter <countgunthar at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Just for reference, does anyone have the data on a "hot" woodburning
> oven, such as when the coals are first raked out and the roasts are  
> put in as compared to a "soft" or cooler oven? Is 400 about right? What
> temp would constitute a "soft" oven?

> Gunthar


Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:10:10 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Manchet Size/Weight
To: kat_weye at yahoo.com, Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Katheline van Weye wrote:
<<< I know that in Elizabethan times, the manchet size was described as "...everie loaf weigheth 8 ounces, into the oven, and 6 ounces out."

Does anyone know if the ounces mentioned in Elizabethan times is the same weight that we use today when we say the words "weighs 8 ounces"? >>>

The definition as given by the glossary at Prospect Books reads:
"MANCHET BREAD: Fine bread made from the best wheat and the whitest 
flour available. Made in small loaves weighing 6 to 8 oz. Manchet was 
the bread of the privileged. (John Nott, 1726) "
http://www.florilegium.org/?http%3A//www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-BREADS/brd-manchets-msg.html
has more information.
http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/custom.html  has information on 
weights and measures.

Here commonly an ounce ought to be the avoirdupois ounce which is 7000/16.

Johnnae


Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:42:24 -0600
From: Georgia Foster <jo_foster81 at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Arts and Sciences; bread
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I made and entered Manchet for one of two entries  in our local Arts and Sciences competition.  I am sort of ashamed to say ... I sort of cheated ....

I took the original, converted weight to cups and divided the whole by 12 ... giving me a recipie that started with 10 cups of flour instead of half a busheland 1.5 cups of water instead of one gallon.

Here is what I used

10 cups flour
2 teaspons salt
1.5 cups warm water
1 cup yeast (sponge)

mixed it, kneeded it for 20 minutes, and left to rise near the heater outlet for an hour.  Then I formed into 8 loaves, made relief cuts around each.  Those were set to rise 1.5 hours.  by that time they were each about the size of a mans two fists.  I baked them at 400 for 30 minutes.

Here is where I kind of cheated the competition.

I was running late (what a surprise) so the bread came out of the oven and went into the basket as I was going out the door.   There is something to be said for wafting the aroma of fresh-baked bread past the entire hall on the way to the display table.

The Manchet got max points.

The other entry also got max points.

I am now the Otherhill Arts and Sciences Champion.

AND

I left with eight loaves.  I came home with ZERO.  So, I had to make more.  While I was doing that, I was also minding the children of a friend.  The 10 year old daughter was watching me make bread (mmmm   bread!!  SHE LOVES bread!!!).  So I had her help.  We talked about yeast, and why it works.  I explained the need for the relief cuts, (why would you want to cut the crust off?  Dunno ... I LIKE the crust!!).  Then, I sent her home with a cup of yeast starter, instructions on how to fead it, and a copy of the documentation I used for the competition.  We have a new devote' in the bread making arena.  She took half the Manchet home with her and we ate the rest with (OOP) Ham and Beans for supper last night.

have to make more tonight.

Malkin


Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 16:49:12 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Arts and Sciences; bread
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< I took the original, converted weight to cups and divided the whole  by 
12 ... giving me a recipie that started with 10 cups of flour  instead of 
half a busheland 1.5 cups of water instead of one gallon. >>>

Congrats on your achievement -- it sounds like you'll approach the  role 
of champion with integrity, which is what's important.

Can you tell us more about the original recipe you used? Who's this 
making a bushel of flour's worth of manchet? I STR Markham giving a 
recipe with instructions on how to shape them and all, but I don't  have 
it in front of me right now... I just remember following his  shaping 
instructions and getting little loaves that were almost  perfect little 
hat-box-shaped cylinders, which was way cool.

Glad to hear you're having fun, and hoping to hear more...

Adamantius
--------------

Malkin appears to have used the recipe from "The Good Huswife's Handmaid for 
the Kitchen" (1594, and appended below)..

I would like a little more detail on how the conversion was calculated. From my calculations, she used the weight of a Winchester bushel (70 lbs.) 
and failed to account for the removal of the chesill.  If Malkin had used 
one of the smaller Elizabethean bushels, I would have expected her results 
without subtracting the chesill to be between 8 and 9 cups of flour and with 
the chesill removed to be between 5 and 7 cups of flour

In any event, the recipe worked, which is what counts.  As a baker, I can 
only applaud the win.

Bear

To Make Fine Manchet. Take halfe a bushell of fine flour twise boulted, and 
a gallon of faire luke warm water, almost a handful of white salt, and 
almost a pint of yest, then temper these together without any more liquor, 
as hard as
ye can handle it: then let it lie halfe an hower, then take it up, and make 
your Manchetts, and let them stande almost an hower in the oven. Memorandum, 
that of every bushell of meale may be made five and twentie caste of bread, 
and every loaf to way a pound besyde the chesill.

The Good Huswife's Handmaide for the Kitchen, 1594 


Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:34:23 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Arts and Sciences; bread
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< Personally, I find it's best not to worry too much about measuring the 
flour-- I just measure the liquid and add flour 'til it be enow.

10 cups of flour does sound like an awful lot to mix with just 1.5c. of 
water, though... just on a notional basis, I would have said ~5c. would do 
it.
-- 
Antonia di Benedetto Calvo >>>

When I adapted the manchet recipe from the Good Huswife's Handmaid for an 
Elizabethan feast in 2001, I got 5-6 cups of flour to 1.5 cups of water.  So 
I'm a little curious about the calculations.

When doing seriously large batches of bread, measuring by weight is the only 
way to go to get the ingredient ratios right.  Small batch recipes have 
enough wiggle room that the measures approximate the correct ratios.  I too 
tend to measure the liquids, add yeast, sponge or starter, as appropriate, 
then add any other solid ingredients with the first couple of cups of flour, 
adding additional flour a cup or a half cup at a time until I get the 
consistency of dough I want.

Bear 


Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 01:49:08 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Arts and Sciences; bread
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The recipe states "every bushell of meale may be made five and twentie caste 
of bread, and every loaf to way a pound besyde the chesill."  A caste is two 
or three loaves, in this case two loaves, which is four manchets or 100 
manchets to be made from the flour "besyde the chesill."  The assumption you 
appear to have made is that the full bushel of flour is usable, but the 
recipe is actually calling for the removal of the bran (chesill) before use. 
The chesill was commonly one peck per bushel, or in the case of a 56 pound 
bushel, 14 pounds.  Based on your bushel size, the actual weight of the 
flour is between 41.25 pounds and 45 pounds or between 160 and 180 cups, 
given a 4 ounce cup.

Based on the recipe and a 56 pound bushel, 100 manchets will require 42 
pounds of flour, 2 gallons of water (256 fl. ozs. based on the Elizabethan 
wine gallon) and 1 quart of ale barm (32 fl. ozs.) and perhaps 4 ounces of 
salt depending on the size of your fist.

Rather than try to figure out the sponge requirements, I'd use a couple 
teaspoons of dry active yeast to a quarter cup of warm water to approximate 
the ale barm.

You got me interested in playing with the recipe again, so maybe I'll make 
up a batch for SCA hospitality tent at the Medieval Fair this coming 
weekend.

Bear

<<< had to wait to respond until I had the actual documentation in hand.  I 
used "The Good Huswife's Handmaid for the Kitchen".  The conversion of 
flour was from an Almanac.  A bushel of flour weighs between 55 and 60 
pounds, equivelent to  255 - 265 cups.  With that kind of variance ... I 
was concerned about how that would translate down.  I made a few 
test-drives before I made the competition batch.

Oh

And ... the flour was carefully measured the first time I made it.  The 
second and third ... not so much.  The last batch (Sunday) I was less 
careful about measuring (scoop and dump).  The total liquid was slightly 
more than 2.5 cups.  I used yeast starter or sponge ... and I keep mine 
quite liquid so I was at odds on how much liquid to actually USE and still 
get enough yeastie beasties to grow the dough.  On the tests runs I played 
with the amound of liquid.    I used one cup of the starter and one cup of 
warm water and then added more as it needed. On the second test run I paid 
close attention to how much yeast starter and how much water.  On the 
competition batch I measured very carefully.  I also reported the 
test-runs, lessons learned and the actual competition batch in the 
documentation submitted with the entry.

The coolest thing about the Manchet is ... no sugar.  Tastes sweet ..... 
but not a bit of added sweetner in it.  That worried me a little at first 
but it is a GREAT bread.

Judging sheet included (I believe ... I don't have the sheets in hand 
right now) 1-10 points for presentation, 1-10 for period style, 1-10 for 
the product and (1-5) for documentation.

cheers

Malkin >>>

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	brd-manchets-msg	Page 21 of 21