bagels-msg- 10/4/14 Period bagels. NOTE: See also the files: pretzels-msg, fried-breads-msg, pizza-msg, leavening-msg, trenchers-msg, jumbals-msg, yeasts-msg, wafers-msg, salmon-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:12:45 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Travel Bread > Just a general question..... Dr. Henry Lumpkin in his lecture series "The > History of Warfare" Made the statement that travel bread was made in a bagel > shape, threaded through rope and hung around the horses neck when traveling > light (Such as a Knight on horseback). > > I was wondering if any of you bread experts > out there could point me to an actual written historical reference to > this? > > Did traval bread sometimes come in the form of a bagel and was the > function to be hung on a rope? > > Corwyn I've never come across this one. I'm not sure I would find a bagel salted with horse lather very palatable. Frankly, most of the travel breads I am familiar with are double baked breads like hardtack or flat bread. These would most likely been wrapped in a cloth and carried in a pack or a saddle bag. Hanging food around the neck of a horse is the kind of thing I would expect of a post rider or by troops on a forced march, rather than just travelling. A water bagel with its tough skin and its' moisture retaining properties might make a good travel bread, but I haven't seen a reference to bagels being used this way. Most breads with center holes are shaped that way to insure they bake properly. That they can be hung from a staff and sold is an added advantage. Apocryphally, the bagel was first made in 1683 to Jan Sobieski's victory over the Turks. But there are supposed to be some earlier references to them. There is some archeological evidence that a bread of this type was in use by the Uighurs as early as 100 CE. Bear Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 22:58:46 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Views on British Food >> (and don't get me started on bagels!) > I would love to here about bagels... > found a period reference in a chronology of the history of food on soured > cream cheese recently and so was actually just thinking of bagels > > Lady Gwyneth Blackrose > Graywood The earliest known reference to beygls is found in the regulations of Cracow, Poland from 1610. The bread itself may be much older, but the sources are sketchy. Bear Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:33:23 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pretzels & bagels To: "Cooks within the SCA" >>> This whole "malted water" thing has me fascinated. I had many bagel making discussions with a Hebrew chef. He didn't add anything to the water, nor have any of the recipes I have seen added stuff to the water. He did insist of refrigerating them for an hour before baking.... Samrah (who used to make a good batch of bagels and still makes a good bread) <<< IIRC, malted water appears in Bernard Clayton's book of French breads, so it may be a French thing. Having tried it, dropping the bagels into malted water improves the flavor without being overpowering. BTW, not all bagel recipes call for the bagel to be dropped in boiling water. Traditionally, the bagel was created by Austrian bakers to celebrate John III Sobieski's raising of the Siege of Vienna (the same one that saw the start of coffeehouses in Vienna) in 1683. Unfortunately for tradition, there are apparently regulations from Krakow in 1610 covering the bagel. That there are no particular religious regulations attached to the bagel suggest that it was a bread made by all manner of bakers and that the "Jewish affinity" to the bagel is a latter phenomenon. I'm still trying to locate a source for the baking regulations in Krakow. They get mentioned in passing in various sources, but copies of the actual regulations seem to be elusive. Bear Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:57:08 -0800 From: David Friedman Subject: [Sca-cooks] bagels To: Cooks within the SCA Pennsic before last (I think) we attended a class on Italian cooking, which included a handout which included what appears to be a bagel recipe from Messibugio. I think the class was by an apprentice of Master Basileus Phocas (sp?), but am not sure. The recipe is on page 39 of my copy of Libro Novo and is the second recipe given. In the original, the title is: Brazzatelle di latte, e zuccaro It occurs to me, after reading Bear's post on pretzels and bagels, that the word is probably related to "pretzel" and one could interpret the recipe as a pretzel rather than a bagel recipe. Are pretzels boiled and then baked? Here is the translation that was handed out, and how I made them. Bagels of Milk and Sugar from Messibugio, Libro Novo 1557 To make fifty bagels of four ounces each you will take fifteen lbs of best flour, three ounces of rose water, three pounds of milk, two pounds of white sugar, 25 eggs, four ounces of butter, and you will knead these things together very well. Then you will make your bagels according to the method you want to use, and then you will let rise with careful attention, and after it has risen you will boil your water, and then you will place inside the above-mentioned bagels to cook, and when they come to the top you will take out, and then you will put in fresh water, and when you have removed them from within you will put them to cook in the oven, and if you want to put inside anise it is a good deed. ----------------- Here is how I did it: (1/6 quantities) 2 1/2 lb flour--about 8c 1/2 oz rose water 1/2 lb milk--about 1 c 1/3 lb sugar=2/3 c 4 eggs 8/9 oz butter (1 c sourdough) Aniseeds Note 1: The recipes says it produces fifty bagels weighing four ounces each, but uses about 18-20 lbs of ingredients, after allowing for cooking off the water in the milk. I concluded that it was using a 12 ounce pound, like the troy pound or the Islamic ratl, rather than a 16 ounce pound. The finished bagels weighed about 7 avoirdoupois ounces, which is still a little heavy; on my assumption it should have been 5 1/3 ounces. Note 2: The recipe is for a leavened bread, but no leavening is mentioned. My guess is that it is using either sourdough or a kneading trough with its own yeast culture. I used sourdough. Note 3: The reasons for interpreting this as bagels are the boiling/baking sequence, the size, and the reference to making the bagels according to the method you want to use, which suggests some special shape or shapes. Combine flour and sugar; cut in the (softened) butter. Combine the liquid ingredients, including the sourdough, mix, add to the dry ingredients and knead until you have a smooth dough. Cover with a damp towel, let rise at least nine hours. Then divide into nine equal portions, roll each into a cylinder about 9-10" long, join the ends to form a torus (i.e. bagel shape). Leave it until it has risen again, which should be another five hours or so at room temperature (i.e. 70° F). Your rising times may differ from this, depending on your sourdough culture. When the bagels have risen, fill a pot at least five inches deep with water, if possible more. Bring the water to a boil. Put in as many of the bagels as you can manage without to much of a problem of sticking. Boil until they rise to the top, which should start happening in three or four minutes. Make sure they have not stuck to the bottom; if they have loosen with a spatula (pancake turner). When each bagel floats to the top take it out, dunk it briefly in a bowl of water, drain, put on a cookie sheet or the like. Bake them in a 400° oven until brown--about 20 minutes. If you like, before putting them in to bake sprinkle on aniseed. -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:17:43 -0700 From: David Friedman Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period pretzel recipes? To: Cooks within the SCA > I'd like to make some pretzels and was wondering if anyone has > come across any period recipes. > > I see them in the pictures in later period paintings, but so far > haven't found a recipe. > > Grace There is an Italian recipe for Brazzatelle, or some name close to that, from Messibugio, Libro Novo 1557. I haven't been able to find a translation of the word, but it looks as though it is either bagels or pretzels. Here is the recipe as translated by someone who thought it meant bagels: --- Bagels of Milk and Sugar from Messibugio, Libro Novo 1557 To make fifty bagels of four ounces each you will take fifteen lbs of best flour, three ounces of rose water, three pounds of milk, two pounds of white sugar, 25 eggs, four ounces of butter, and you will knead these things together very well. Then you will make your bagels according to the method you want to use, and then you will let rise with careful attention, and after it has risen you will boil your water, and then you will place inside the above-mentioned bagels to cook, and when they come to the top you will take out, and then you will put in fresh water, and when you have removed them from within you will put them to cook in the oven, and if you want to put inside anise it is a good deed. -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:50:39 -0400 From: "Mairi Ceilidh" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Not bagels, pretzels To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" With all due respect to His Grace, Master Cariadoc, I must, as I did when we had this discussion at Pennsic two years ago, disagree with his interpretation of the translation of this recipe. I am not the person who taught the class referenced here, but I have translated, researched, interpreted and prepared this recipe. I did an Art/Sci entry based on it some years ago. My main concern is the necessity to leave the language in which to recipe was originally written, and go elsewhere to stretch an association of words. In the 1611 edition of John Florio's Italian/English dictionary, which uses Messisbugo's Libre Novo (the book in which thich recipe is published) as a word source, we find a reference to the word brazzetto which sends us to the alternates spelling braccietto. Braccietto translates to "a little arm" or "bracer". The OED tells us that a bracer is something that goes around the arm as a protector (loosely interpreted from multiple references). The circular form of a bagel is much more likely to match this definition than the multi-twist form of a pretzel. Extend the search to other forms of the word in Florio's dictionary and we find Bracciatillo, a kind of roule or bisket bread, we call them round simnels. It seems obvious that it is not necessary to go outside the Italian language to discern what Messisbugo is making in this recipe. Rolls formed in a circle. Maybe not bagels, but certainly not pretzels. Actually, it doesn't matter what you call the things. They are good, and well worth the effort to make. Here is my interpretation of the recipe: Brazzatelle Di Latte, E Zuccaro Modern Redaction (as I interpreted the translation and prepared the recipe) 4 pounds bread flour 1 ? T. rose water 1C. milk ? C. sugar 6 large eggs 2T. butter 2 t. salt 1 T. active dry yeast 1C. warm water Several pinches anise seeds (optional) Dissolve yeast in 1 C. warm water and set aside. Scald the milk in a small saucepan, add the butter and allow to melt, add the rosewater and cool. In a large bowl, beat the eggs well. Add the yeast and milk mixtures and stir well. Add about 4 cups of flour and the salt to the liquid mixture. Stir until roughly combined; continue adding flour, about a cup at the time until it is difficult to stir. Turn onto a floured surface and knead until the dough is smooth and elastic, about 10 minutes, adding flour if needed. Leave the dough to rise, punch down. Cut dough into 4 ounce pieces. Shape each piece as you like; preferably roll into a rope about 12 inches long, joining the ends to make a ring. Place the rolls on an oiled baking sheet and allow to rise for 45 minutes, or until about double in size. Preheat the oven to 400 F. Heat a large pot fill with water to a simmer. Boil the rolls, four to six at the time (do not let them be crowded in the pot) for about five minutes on each side, or until they are well puffed and float. Place the boiled rolls on an oiled baking sheet, sprinkle with anise seeds, if desired. Bake for 40 minutes, or until golden brown. If anyone would like a copy of my documentation, which is four years old and possibly not as detailed as it might be were I writing it today, please contact me with your email address. It is in a word document which I can send as an attachment. Mairi Ceilidh <<<< Messibugio has a recipe which I originally encountered in a class at Pennsic some years ago, with the title translated as "Bagels of milk and sugar." The italian original is "Brazzatelle di latte, e zuccaro." When we tried the recipe, it occurred to me that the process--boil then bake--could describe either bagels or pretzels, as would the implication of some specific (but not stated) shape. And the name could be related to "bracelets" for bagels, or to "pretzel." It finally occurred to me to check the etymology of "pretzel." "[German Brezel, Pretzel, from Middle High German bremacr.gifzel, premacr.gifzel, from Old High German brezitella, ... I think that's close enough to establish a strong presumption that it's a pretzel recipe. -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com >>> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 14:34:38 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Baker of Bagels in the 11th C To: "Cooks within the SCA" <<< I ran across a passing comment about a Jewish "ka'ki" or "Baker of Bagels" in Vol. 2 of Goitein's _A Mediterranean Society_. Does anyone have more specific information, or recipes for 11th- 12th C bagels? Samia >>> I wonder if this may not be a mistranslation due to a shift in usage. According to a chance reference I encountered, the earliest appearance of the term beygl is from 1610 in the city ordinances of Cracow. Apochryphally, bagels were first created to celebrate Jan III Sobieski's breaking of the Siege of Vienna in 1683. There is some archeological evidence that a bagel-like bread was being produced by the Uighurs around 100 CE, but there isn't enough detail to determine the extent of similarity. Arguably, the earliest possible recipe for bagels is from Messibugio's Libro Novo ( 1557), but there is disagreement as to whether the recipe is a bagel or not. To my knowledge there are no bagel recipes from the 11th or 12th Centuries and, IIRC, the time frame predates all known bread recipes in Europe. Bear Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:52:52 +0000 (GMT) From: emilio szabo Subject: [Sca-cooks] Baker of Bagels in the 11th C To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org << I ran across a passing comment about a Jewish "ka'ki" or "Baker of Bagels" in Vol. 2 of Goitein's _A Mediterranean Society_. Does anyone have more specific information, or recipes for 11th- 12th C bagels? Samia >> << I wonder if this may not be a mistranslation due to a shift in usage. ... >> In volume I, page 254, the author says: "A Jewish ka'ki, or maker of cakes". The source mentioned in note 152 on page 464 is a document from the Cairo Geniza collection from the year 1010. On the Cairo Geniza: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Geniza As for 11th century recipes, the only chance I can think of is that huge Arabic collection, translated by someone whose name escapes me for the moment. The color of the book is red. E. Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:24:56 +0000 (GMT) From: emilio szabo Subject: [Sca-cooks] I: Baker of Bagels in the 11th C To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org I was mistaken. The source I mentioned from memory in my last post is 10th century. See the mail I sent last year quoting some bread recipes. On the other hand, 1010 and 10th century makes not so much of a difference. Where there are bread recipes, there might be other baking recipes. I don't have the book at hand now. E. ----- Messaggio inoltrato ----- Da: emilio szabo A: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Inviato: Venerd? 22 febbraio 2008, 22:12:16 Oggetto: Four 10th century bread recipes from al-Warraq (including samidh flour) Gianotta wrote: << Still looking for some recipes, and I realized that I've seen several references to samid (semolina) bread, but no recipes for the bread itself. >> There are four such recipes in the tenth century cookbook of Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq. I quote two of them for your convenience: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens. Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's Tenth-Century Baghdadi Cookbook. English Translation with Introduction and Glossary by Nawal Nasrallah. Leiden, Boston 2007, page 119-120. (several bars, underlinings, italics and notes omitted) MAKING KHUBZ (FLAT BREAD) AND RUQAQ (VERY THIN BREAD) A recipe for Nabatean water bread (Khubz al-ma' al-Nabati): Take 1 makkuk (7 1/2 pounds) good quality samidh flour and sift it in a big wooden bowl (jafna). Mix with it 3 uqiyyas (3 ounces) yeast, and add 30 dirhams (3 ounces) salt that has been dissolved in water and strained. Knead the mixture into very firm dough, as firm as stone (hajar) and press it well. Continue pressing it while rubbing the bottom of the dough 120 times with water in doses of 5 dirhams (1 tablespoon) each until it develops a consistency which is a little firmer than that of the zalabiya dough. Cover the dough and let it ferment. With the help of some oil of hulled sesame seeds {shayraj muqashshar) divide dough into portions and shape them like farani. Light the tannur and wait until the fire starts to smolder gently. Wipe clean the inside of the oven [with a piece of cloth]. Rub each portion of the dough with 2 dirhams (1 teaspoon) sesame oil or zayt anfaq (olive oil extracted from unripe olives) then flatten it by hand and stick it to the inside of the smoldering oven (tannur hadi'). This recipe will make 15 pieces of bread. When you are done sticking all the portions in the tannur, cover it with its lid for a short while. As soon as the breads are set (jamuda), sprinkle them lightly with water, about 1/2 kuz (1/2 cup), and return the lid as it was before. Wait for a short while, then remove the cover, and open up the bottom vent hole ('ayn al-tannur) to expose the breads to more heat. (24r) As soon as they brown (ihmarra), take them out. Scrape their backs with a knife and wipe them with a small amount of water. Stack the breads, enclose them in a damp piece of cloth, and set them aside for an hour or so. Serve this bread whenever you need it, it will be the best, God willing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens. Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's Tenth-Century Baghdadi Cookbook. English Translation with Introduction and Glossary by Nawal Nasrallah. Leiden, Boston 2007, page 120. (several bars, underlinings, italics and notes omitted) A recipe for bread called khubz al-qanani (bottle bread): Make soft dough similar in consistency to zalabiya dough, using as much as needed of good quality, fine samidh flour (high in starch and bran-free) [and water]. Pour a little pure olive oil (zayt naqi) or sesame oil into wide-mouthed heatproof thin bottles and sprinkle the inside with rose water. Pour the batter into the bottles until they are almost full. Place the filled bottles on flat tiles (qaramid) spread in the bottom of the tannur, and let them bake in medium heat {mu'tadila) until done. To test for doneness, insert a toothpick (khilal) into the baking dough. If it comes out clean, it is done. When you take out the bottles and break them, the breads will come out looking like bottles, God willing. [To serve] moisten the breads, if you like, with refined sweetened milk perfumed with mastic and rose water, or with milk and honey, or eat it plain, God willing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ There are two more bread recipes with samidh flour on page 123-124 of: Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens. Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's Tenth-Century Baghdadi Cookbook. English Translation with Introduction and Glossary by Nawal Nasrallah. Leiden, Boston 2007. Emilio Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:45:14 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Baker of Bagels in the 11th C To: Cooks within the SCA Regarding S.D. Goitein A Mediterranean Society-- the author died in 1985, so he could not have been using Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens. Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's Tenth-Century Baghdadi Cookbook. English Translation with Introduction and Glossary by Nawal Nasrallah. So the question remains -- is there a footnote with the source indicated? Once we know that we can track it. I own the Annals so if it can be traced to Ibn Sayyar I can look it up. Johnnae emilio szabo wrote: <<< I was mistaken. The source I mentioned from memory in my last post is 10th century. See the mail I sent last year quoting some bread recipes. Where there are bread recipes, there might be other baking recipes. I don't have the book at hand now. E. >>> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:18:29 +0000 (GMT) From: emilio szabo Subject: [Sca-cooks] Baker of Bagels in the 11th C To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org <<< Regarding S.D. Goitein A Mediterranean Society-- the author died in 1985, so he could not have been using Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens. Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's Tenth-Century Baghdadi Cookbook. English Translation with Introduction and Glossary by Nawal Nasrallah. So the question remains -- is there a footnote with the source indicated? Once we know that we can track it. I own the Annals so if it can be traced to Ibn Sayyar I can look it up. >>> Sorry. Pointing to the Nasrallah translation, I did not mean to give the source of the Goitein, volume II, quotation, Samia mentioned. I assume the source for this quote will be one of the Cairo Geniza documents as well. (I guess, Samia will look up the footnote in question herself and let us know.) Rather, my points were: first: there is another passage in volume I ("A Jewish ka'ki or maker of cakes"). This might be important for what exactly we are looking for. Second: the Nasrallah translation _might_ contain some contribution to Samia's question: << Does anyone have more specific information, or recipes for 11th- 12th C bagels? >> Johnnae, if you could check the Nasrallah translation and see whether or not there are any recipes for bagel-like things, that would be great. E. Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:12:08 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another leavening agent was Baker of Bagels in the 11th C To: Cooks within the SCA On Mar 31, 2009, at 6:53 PM, Johnna Holloway wrote: <<< Ok while checking in the circa 950 AD Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens. Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's Tenth- Century Baghdadi Cookbook. English Translation with Introduction and Glossary by Nawal Nasrallah. I came across mention of another leavening agent--- On Page 563 under an entry for khamir /khumra /Nasrallah writes: "fresh yeast, usually a piece of fully fermented dough saved from a previous batch. Medieval bakers also used /buraq/ 'borax' as a leavening agent. Adding generous amounts of yeast and borax is recommended in making bread because fully fermented bread is believed to be easier to digest. (Ibn al-Baytar 228)" Borax?!? Johnnae >>> I understand borax is sometimes used in small amounts in hand-pulled noodles in China, and I think it may appear in some of the wheat-dough recipes for mantou in "A Soup for the Qan," although I could be remembering that last part incorrectly. I believe it's roughly akin to baking soda in pH, and it can be used industrially as an antifungal, so one possibility is as a yeast inhibitor, but for all I know it could have something to do with gluten extensibility, hence its use in pulled noodles. If that's the case, I could see it appearing in bagels for a lighter, more elastic dough. Bear? Tag, you're it. Adamantius Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:32:46 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another leavening agent was Baker of Bagels in the 11th C To: "Cooks within the SCA" Curious. Sodium tetraborate decahydrate (borax) shouldn't react in a way to act as a leavening. It is, however, a water softener and as such could improve the quality of the bread. I note that it is used with yeast and not as a separate leaven. This might also be the reason for the "soda" in the recipe for bread in Feast for the Qan. Bear <<< Ok while checking in the circa 950 AD Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens. Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's Tenth-Century Baghdadi Cookbook. English Translation with Introduction and Glossary by Nawal Nasrallah. I came across mention of another leavening agent--- On Page 563 under an entry for khamir /khumra /Nasrallah writes: "fresh yeast, usually a piece of fully fermented dough saved from a previous batch. Medieval bakers also used /buraq/ 'borax' as a leavening agent. Adding generous amounts of yeast and borax is recommended in making bread because fully fermented bread is believed to be easier to digest. (Ibn al-Baytar 228)" Borax?!? Johnnae >>> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:07:47 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another leavening agent was Baker of Bagels in the 11th C To: Cooks within the SCA On Mar 31, 2009, at 7:50 PM, I wrote: <<< And, of course, I now can't find a single word in reference to it in A Soup for the Qan. Probably sometimes next year I'll find it in Ni Tsan or in a footnote. Generally my memory loses or misplaces things, but almost never manufactures something I haven't actually seen. Of course, there's always a first time. >>> http://slurpandburp.blogspot.com/2006/01/imbb-22-lamian-chinese-stretched.html This is a fairly lengthy blog diary on northern Chinese pulled noodles, containing something of an argument between readers/posters on whether they do, or should, contain a small amount of borax, and why. The consensus among the people that think it belongs in those noodles seems to be that in noodles, it's about gluten extensibility, which, given the high gluten flour traditionally used for bagels, could be said to make some sense. Adamantius Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:47:59 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another leavening agent was Baker of Bagels in the 11th C To: Cooks within the SCA David Waines did this article Cereals, Bread and Society: An Essay on the Staff of Life in Medieval Iraq David Waines Journal of the Economic and Social History of the Orient, Vol. 30, No. 3 (1987), pp. 255-285 (article consists of 31 pages) It's in JSTOR so I will get in later and get it. Borax is mentioned in it. "Another type, bardzidhaj, differed from the above in containing /borax/ *..." It's rather hard to find but *Soup for the Qan does list Borax. It's on page 77 in a section on breads. It's said to be connected with a bread coming out of Armenia. Johnnae From: lilinah at earthlink.net [Add to Address Book] To: MiddleEasternPersonas at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [MiddleEasternPersonas] Baker of Bagels in the 11th C Date: Mar 30, 2009 4:08 PM Samia al-Kaslaania wrote: <<< I ran across a passing comment about a Jewish "ka'ki" or "Baker of Bagels" in Vol. 2 of Goitein's _A Mediterranean Society_. Does anyone have more specific information, or recipes for 11th-12th C bagels? >>> Generally, in the SCA-period Arabic world, ka'k are what we'd call cookies. They are made of a soft flour or semolina dough enriched with butter. Bits of the dough are formed into rings or "bracelets" (but not big enough to put your hand through :-), placed on a "baking sheet", and baked in a "bread oven" (as opposed to a tannur). They are sweet, sometimes filled with chopped nuts and sugar, and are generally not yeasted. In bagel making, yeasted dough is made, kneaded, allowed to rise, etc.; when that process is complete, bits of dough are pulled off and formed into rings, which are then allowed to rise again; then the dough rings are boiled for some time; when they've boiled enough, they are removed and drained; and finally the bagels are baked. This is similar to medieval European bretzels (thus written in some period sources), as they were also originally boiled then baked, and soft, not hard and crunchy, although differently shaped. There are ka'k recipes in a number of surviving SCA period Arabic language cookbooks. If you'd like, i'll post them here. There's an interesting discussion of ka'k, bagels, bageleh (which seem to be like simit), and pretzels at: http://www.balashon.com/2008/04/bagel.html This discussion of ka'k on Wikipedia discusses only modern or recent types, not medieval: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka%27ak I'll have to get around to editing that to add more historical info (yeah, i'm a wikipedian) There's also a very interesting discussion of bagels on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagel I need to check the SCA-Cooks list, because i know bagels have come up there... [Disclaimer: i have not edited or contributed to either of those articles] If there's more to Goitein's interpretation of ka'k as bagels beyond the shape, i'd love to know. Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 19:05:40 -0400 (EDT) From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Baker of Bagels in the 11th C To: SCA-Cooks emilio szabo wrote: <<< Here is the passage from volume II, where G. comments on "baker of cakes" and "baker of bagels": http://books.google.com/books?id=QH3BHQulNpsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:ISBN0520221621&hl=de#PPA297,M1 Alas, the note 27 is not part of the preview. >>> Footnote 27 gives the source of "the same Jewish baker of bagels" taking a loan from a Muslim miller before paying back the first loan. It sheds no light on Goitein's interpretation of "ka'k" as "bagel". (yes, i have the complete 6-vol. set of "A Mediterranean Society") As i posted, in medieval Arabic language cookbooks "ka'k" are usually what we'd call "cookies" (more archaically "cakes"). Some area formed into rings, some have sweet filling (e.g., almonds with sugar), some are dipped in syrup. Some are not formed into rings, but are formed with a mold and stuffed with date filling, basically like modern mamoul. I'll be happy to post some SCA-period recipes, if anyone likes. Apparently another item called "ka'k" is a ring-shaped bread that is intentionally dry, handy for travelers - i forget where, but somewhere i read it referred to as a type of "hardtack". In the modern Middle East, there are, to the best of my knowledge, two items called "ka'k". One is a "cookie" very similar to the medieval kinds. The other is a bread ring, unlike any bagels i know, covered with sesame seeds, and which seems to me to be like, if not identical to, the modern Turkish simit. Neither is boiled before baking. Apparently in Israel in the 20th and 21st centuries, the simit-like sesame-coated bread is called by the Yiddish "bagaleh", the diminutive of the Yiddish "bagel" (Yiddish being a dialect of High German). However, the modern Israeli bagaleh is not smaller than a typical bagel, and is baked in an oven without being boiled first, which is typical of bagels as i've known them. I've also read that "bagaleh" can also refer to something like what we in the US called a "soft pretzel" (since most of ours are hard and dry and crunchy). So i am skeptical of calling a "ka'k" a "bagel" just because it's make of flour, formed into a ring, and baked in an oven. P.S., why is a bagel boiled before baking? Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 23:40:04 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Baker of Bagels in the 11th C To: , "Cooks within the SCA" <<< P.S., why is a bagel boiled before baking? Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) >>> Boiling the dough gelatinizes the starch on the surface of the dough sealing the crust, producing the even sheen on the surface, and setting the shape of the bagel. The bagel's moisture retention and chewy texture are also results of the gelatinized crust. Bear Edited by Mark S. Harris bagels-msg 15 of 15