bagels-msg- 10/4/14
Period bagels.
NOTE: See also the files: pretzels-msg, fried-breads-msg, pizza-msg, leavening-msg, trenchers-msg, jumbals-msg, yeasts-msg, wafers-msg, salmon-msg.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:12:45 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Travel Bread
> Just a general question..... Dr. Henry Lumpkin in his lecture series "The
> History of Warfare" Made the statement that travel bread was made in a bagel
> shape, threaded through rope and hung around the horses neck when traveling
> light (Such as a Knight on horseback).
>
> I was wondering if any of you bread experts
> out there could point me to an actual written historical reference to
> this?
>
> Did traval bread sometimes come in the form of a bagel and was the
> function to be hung on a rope?
>
> Corwyn
I've never come across this one. I'm not sure I would find a bagel salted
with horse lather very palatable.
Frankly, most of the travel breads I am familiar with are double baked
breads like hardtack or flat bread. These would most likely been wrapped in
a cloth and carried in a pack or a saddle bag. Hanging food around the neck
of a horse is the kind of thing I would expect of a post rider or by troops
on a forced march, rather than just travelling.
A water bagel with its tough skin and its' moisture retaining properties
might make a good travel bread, but I haven't seen a reference to bagels
being used this way.
Most breads with center holes are shaped that way to insure they bake
properly. That they can be hung from a staff and sold is an added
advantage.
Apocryphally, the bagel was first made in 1683 to Jan Sobieski's victory
over the Turks. But there are supposed to be some earlier references to
them. There is some archeological evidence that a bread of this type was in
use by the Uighurs as early as 100 CE.
Bear
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 22:58:46 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Views on British Food
>> (and don't get me started on bagels!)
> I would love to here about bagels...
> found a period reference in a chronology of the history of food on soured
> cream cheese recently and so was actually just thinking of bagels
>
> Lady Gwyneth Blackrose
> Graywood
The earliest known reference to beygls is found in the regulations of
Cracow, Poland from 1610. The bread itself may be much older, but the
sources are sketchy.
Bear
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:33:23 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pretzels & bagels
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>>>
This whole "malted water" thing has me fascinated. I had many bagel
making discussions with a Hebrew chef. He didn't add anything to the water,
nor have any of the recipes I have seen added stuff to the water. He did
insist of refrigerating them for an hour before baking....
Samrah (who used to make a good batch of bagels and still makes a good bread)
<<<
IIRC, malted water appears in Bernard Clayton's book of French breads, so it
may be a French thing. Having tried it, dropping the bagels into malted
water improves the flavor without being overpowering. BTW, not all bagel
recipes call for the bagel to be dropped in boiling water.
Traditionally, the bagel was created by Austrian bakers to celebrate John
III Sobieski's raising of the Siege of Vienna (the same one that saw the
start of coffeehouses in Vienna) in 1683. Unfortunately for tradition,
there are apparently regulations from Krakow in 1610 covering the bagel.
That there are no particular religious regulations attached to the bagel
suggest that it was a bread made by all manner of bakers and that the
"Jewish affinity" to the bagel is a latter phenomenon.
I'm still trying to locate a source for the baking regulations in Krakow.
They get mentioned in passing in various sources, but copies of the actual
regulations seem to be elusive.
Bear
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:57:08 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] bagels
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Pennsic before last (I think) we attended a
class on Italian cooking, which included a
handout which included what appears to be a bagel
recipe from Messibugio. I think the class was by
an apprentice of Master Basileus Phocas (sp?),
but am not sure. The recipe is on page 39 of my
copy of Libro Novo and is the second recipe
given. In the original, the title is:
Brazzatelle di latte, e zuccaro
It occurs to me, after reading Bear's post on
pretzels and bagels, that the word is probably
related to "pretzel" and one could interpret the
recipe as a pretzel rather than a bagel recipe.
Are pretzels boiled and then baked?
Here is the translation that was handed out, and how I made them.
Bagels of Milk and Sugar
from Messibugio, Libro Novo 1557
To make fifty bagels of four ounces each you will
take fifteen lbs of best flour, three ounces of
rose water, three pounds of milk, two pounds of
white sugar, 25 eggs, four ounces of butter, and
you will knead these things together very well.
Then you will make your bagels according to the
method you want to use, and then you will let
rise with careful attention, and after it has
risen you will boil your water, and then you will
place inside the above-mentioned bagels to cook,
and when they come to the top you will take out,
and then you will put in fresh water, and when
you have removed them from within you will put
them to cook in the oven, and if you want to put
inside anise it is a good deed.
-----------------
Here is how I did it:
(1/6 quantities)
2 1/2 lb flour--about 8c
1/2 oz rose water
1/2 lb milk--about 1 c
1/3 lb sugar=2/3 c
4 eggs
8/9 oz butter
(1 c sourdough)
Aniseeds
Note 1: The recipes says it produces fifty bagels
weighing four ounces each, but uses about 18-20
lbs of ingredients, after allowing for cooking
off the water in the milk. I concluded that it
was using a 12 ounce pound, like the troy pound
or the Islamic ratl, rather than a 16 ounce
pound. The finished bagels weighed about 7
avoirdoupois ounces, which is still a little
heavy; on my assumption it should have been 5 1/3
ounces.
Note 2: The recipe is for a leavened bread, but
no leavening is mentioned. My guess is that it is
using either sourdough or a kneading trough with
its own yeast culture. I used sourdough.
Note 3: The reasons for interpreting this as
bagels are the boiling/baking sequence, the size,
and the reference to making the bagels according
to the method you want to use, which suggests
some special shape or shapes.
Combine flour and sugar; cut in the (softened)
butter. Combine the liquid ingredients, including
the sourdough, mix, add to the dry ingredients
and knead until you have a smooth dough. Cover
with a damp towel, let rise at least nine hours.
Then divide into nine equal portions, roll each
into a cylinder about 9-10" long, join the ends
to form a torus (i.e. bagel shape). Leave it
until it has risen again, which should be another
five hours or so at room temperature (i.e. 70°
F). Your rising times may differ from this,
depending on your sourdough culture.
When the bagels have risen, fill a pot at least
five inches deep with water, if possible more.
Bring the water to a boil. Put in as many of the
bagels as you can manage without to much of a
problem of sticking. Boil until they rise to the
top, which should start happening in three or
four minutes. Make sure they have not stuck to
the bottom; if they have loosen with a spatula
(pancake turner). When each bagel floats to the
top take it out, dunk it briefly in a bowl of
water, drain, put on a cookie sheet or the like.
Bake them in a 400° oven until brown--about 20
minutes.
If you like, before putting them in to bake sprinkle on aniseed.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:17:43 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period pretzel recipes?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> I'd like to make some pretzels and was wondering if anyone has
> come across any period recipes.
>
> I see them in the pictures in later period paintings, but so far
> haven't found a recipe.
>
> Grace
There is an Italian recipe for Brazzatelle, or some name close to
that, from Messibugio, Libro Novo 1557. I haven't been able to find a
translation of the word, but it looks as though it is either bagels
or pretzels.
Here is the recipe as translated by someone who thought it meant bagels:
---
Bagels of Milk and Sugar
from Messibugio, Libro Novo 1557
To make fifty bagels of four ounces each you will take fifteen lbs of
best flour, three ounces of rose water, three pounds of milk, two
pounds of white sugar, 25 eggs, four ounces of butter, and you will
knead these things together very well.
Then you will make your bagels according to the method you want to
use, and then you will let rise with careful attention, and after it
has risen you will boil your water, and then you will place inside
the above-mentioned bagels to cook, and when they come to the top you
will take out, and then you will put in fresh water, and when you
have removed them from within you will put them to cook in the oven,
and if you want to put inside anise it is a good deed.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:50:39 -0400
From: "Mairi Ceilidh" <jjterlouw at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Not bagels, pretzels
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
With all due respect to His Grace, Master Cariadoc, I must, as I did when we
had this discussion at Pennsic two years ago, disagree with his
interpretation of the translation of this recipe. I am not the person who
taught the class referenced here, but I have translated, researched,
interpreted and prepared this recipe. I did an Art/Sci entry based on it
some years ago.
My main concern is the necessity to leave the language in which to recipe
was originally written, and go elsewhere to stretch an association of
words.
In the 1611 edition of John Florio's Italian/English dictionary, which uses
Messisbugo's Libre Novo (the book in which thich recipe is published) as a
word source, we find a reference to the word brazzetto which sends us to the
alternates spelling braccietto. Braccietto translates to "a little arm" or
"bracer". The OED tells us that a bracer is something that goes around the
arm as a protector (loosely interpreted from multiple references). The
circular form of a bagel is much more likely to match this definition than
the multi-twist form of a pretzel. Extend the search to other forms of the
word in Florio's dictionary and we find Bracciatillo, a kind of roule or
bisket bread, we call them round simnels.
It seems obvious that it is not necessary to go outside the Italian language
to discern what Messisbugo is making in this recipe. Rolls formed in a
circle. Maybe not bagels, but certainly not pretzels.
Actually, it doesn't matter what you call the things. They are good, and
well worth the effort to make. Here is my interpretation of the recipe:
Brazzatelle Di Latte, E Zuccaro
Modern Redaction (as I interpreted the translation and prepared the
recipe)
4 pounds bread flour
1 ? T. rose water
1C. milk
? C. sugar
6 large eggs
2T. butter
2 t. salt
1 T. active dry yeast
1C. warm water
Several pinches anise seeds (optional)
Dissolve yeast in 1 C. warm water and set aside.
Scald the milk in a small saucepan, add the butter and allow to melt,
add the rosewater and cool.
In a large bowl, beat the eggs well. Add the yeast and milk mixtures
and stir well.
Add about 4 cups of flour and the salt to the liquid mixture. Stir until
roughly combined; continue adding flour, about a cup at the time until it is
difficult to stir. Turn onto a floured surface and knead until the dough is
smooth and elastic, about 10 minutes, adding flour if needed.
Leave the dough to rise, punch down. Cut dough into 4 ounce pieces. Shape
each piece as you like; preferably roll into a rope about 12 inches long,
joining the ends to make a ring. Place the rolls on an oiled baking sheet
and allow to rise for 45 minutes, or until about double in size.
Preheat the oven to 400 F. Heat a large pot fill with water to a simmer.
Boil the rolls, four to six at the time (do not let them be crowded in the
pot) for about five minutes on each side, or until they are well puffed and
float. Place the boiled rolls on an oiled baking sheet, sprinkle with anise
seeds, if desired. Bake for 40 minutes, or until golden brown.
If anyone would like a copy of my documentation, which is four years old and
possibly not as detailed as it might be were I writing it today, please
contact me with your email address. It is in a word document which I can
send as an attachment.
Mairi Ceilidh
<<<<
Messibugio has a recipe which I originally encountered in a class at
Pennsic some years ago, with the title translated as "Bagels of milk
and sugar." The italian original is "Brazzatelle di latte, e
zuccaro." When we tried the recipe, it occurred to me that the
process--boil then bake--could describe either bagels or pretzels, as
would the implication of some specific (but not stated) shape. And
the name could be related to "bracelets" for bagels, or to "pretzel."
It finally occurred to me to check the etymology of "pretzel."
"[German Brezel, Pretzel, from Middle High German bremacr.gifzel,
premacr.gifzel, from Old High German brezitella, ...
I think that's close enough to establish a strong presumption that
it's a pretzel recipe.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com >>>
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 14:34:38 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Baker of Bagels in the 11th C
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
<<< I ran across a passing comment about a Jewish "ka'ki" or "Baker of Bagels"
in Vol. 2 of Goitein's _A Mediterranean Society_.
Does anyone have more specific information, or recipes for 11th- 12th C
bagels?
Samia >>>
I wonder if this may not be a mistranslation due to a shift in usage.
According to a chance reference I encountered, the earliest appearance of
the term beygl is from 1610 in the city ordinances of Cracow.
Apochryphally, bagels were first created to celebrate Jan III Sobieski's
breaking of the Siege of Vienna in 1683. There is some archeological
evidence that a bagel-like bread was being produced by the Uighurs around
100 CE, but there isn't enough detail to determine the extent of similarity.
Arguably, the earliest possible recipe for bagels is from Messibugio's Libro
Novo ( 1557), but there is disagreement as to whether the recipe is a bagel
or not. To my knowledge there are no bagel recipes from the 11th or 12th
Centuries and, IIRC, the time frame predates all known bread recipes in
Europe.
Bear
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:52:52 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Baker of Bagels in the 11th C
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
<< I ran across a passing comment about a Jewish "ka'ki" or "Baker of
Bagels" in Vol. 2 of Goitein's _A Mediterranean Society_.
Does anyone have more specific information, or recipes for 11th- 12th C
bagels?
Samia >>
<< I wonder if this may not be a mistranslation due to a shift in usage. ... >>
In volume I, page 254, the author says: "A Jewish ka'ki, or maker of cakes".
The source mentioned in note 152 on page 464 is a document from the Cairo Geniza collection from the year 1010.
On the Cairo Geniza:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Geniza
As for 11th century recipes, the only chance I can think of is that huge Arabic collection, translated by someone whose name escapes me for the moment. The color of the book is red.
E.
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:24:56 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] I: Baker of Bagels in the 11th C
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
I was mistaken. The source I mentioned from memory in my last post is 10th century. See the mail I sent last year quoting some bread recipes. On the other hand, 1010 and 10th century makes not so much of a difference.
Where there are bread recipes, there might be other baking recipes. I don't have the book at hand now.
E.
----- Messaggio inoltrato -----
Da: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
A: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Inviato: Venerd? 22 febbraio 2008, 22:12:16
Oggetto: Four 10th century bread recipes from al-Warraq (including samidh flour)
Gianotta wrote:
<< Still looking for some recipes, and I realized that I've seen several references to samid (semolina) bread, but no recipes for the bread itself. >>
There are four such recipes in the tenth century cookbook of Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq. I quote two of them for your convenience:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens. Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's Tenth-Century Baghdadi Cookbook. English Translation with Introduction and Glossary by Nawal Nasrallah. Leiden, Boston 2007, page 119-120. (several bars, underlinings, italics and notes omitted)
MAKING KHUBZ (FLAT BREAD) AND RUQAQ (VERY THIN BREAD)
A recipe for Nabatean water bread (Khubz al-ma' al-Nabati):
Take 1 makkuk (7 1/2 pounds) good quality samidh flour and sift it in a big wooden bowl (jafna). Mix with it 3 uqiyyas (3 ounces) yeast, and add 30 dirhams (3 ounces) salt that has been dissolved in water and strained.
Knead the mixture into very firm dough, as firm as stone (hajar) and press it well. Continue pressing it while rubbing the bottom of the dough 120 times with water in doses of 5 dirhams (1 tablespoon) each until it develops a consistency which is a little firmer than that of the zalabiya dough. Cover the dough and let it ferment. With the help of some oil of hulled sesame seeds {shayraj muqashshar) divide dough into portions and shape them like farani.
Light the tannur and wait until the fire starts to smolder gently. Wipe clean the inside of the oven [with a piece of cloth]. Rub each portion of the dough with 2 dirhams (1 teaspoon) sesame oil or zayt anfaq (olive oil extracted from unripe olives) then flatten it by hand and stick it to the inside of the smoldering oven (tannur hadi'). This recipe will make 15 pieces of bread.
When you are done sticking all the portions in the tannur, cover it with its lid for a short while. As soon as the breads are set (jamuda), sprinkle them lightly with water, about 1/2 kuz (1/2 cup), and return the lid as it was before. Wait for a short while, then remove the cover, and open up the bottom vent hole ('ayn al-tannur) to expose the breads to more heat. (24r) As soon as they brown (ihmarra), take them out. Scrape their backs with a knife and wipe them with a small amount of water. Stack the breads, enclose them in a damp piece of cloth, and set them aside for an hour or so.
Serve this bread whenever you need it, it will be the best, God willing.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens. Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's Tenth-Century Baghdadi Cookbook. English Translation with Introduction and Glossary by Nawal Nasrallah. Leiden, Boston 2007, page 120. (several bars, underlinings, italics and notes omitted)
A recipe for bread called khubz al-qanani (bottle bread):
Make soft dough similar in consistency to zalabiya dough, using as much as needed of good quality, fine samidh flour (high in starch and bran-free) [and water].
Pour a little pure olive oil (zayt naqi) or sesame oil into wide-mouthed heatproof thin bottles and sprinkle the inside with rose water. Pour the batter into the bottles until they are almost full. Place the filled bottles on flat tiles (qaramid) spread in the bottom of the tannur, and let them bake in medium heat {mu'tadila) until done. To test for doneness, insert a toothpick (khilal) into the baking dough. If it comes out clean, it is done.
When you take out the bottles and break them, the breads will come out looking like bottles, God willing.
[To serve] moisten the breads, if you like, with refined sweetened milk perfumed with mastic and rose water, or with milk and honey, or eat it plain, God willing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are two more bread recipes with samidh flour on page 123-124 of:
Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens. Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's Tenth-Century Baghdadi Cookbook. English Translation with Introduction and Glossary by Nawal Nasrallah. Leiden, Boston 2007.
Emilio
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:45:14 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Baker of Bagels in the 11th C
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Regarding S.D. Goitein A Mediterranean Society--
the author died in 1985, so he could not have been using Annals of the
Caliphs' Kitchens. Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's Tenth-Century Baghdadi
Cookbook. English Translation with Introduction and Glossary by Nawal
Nasrallah.
So the question remains -- is there a footnote with the source indicated?
Once we know that we can track it. I own the Annals so if it can be
traced to Ibn Sayyar I can look it up.
Johnnae
emilio szabo wrote:
<<< I was mistaken. The source I mentioned from memory in my last post is 10th century. See the mail I sent last year quoting some bread recipes.
Where there are bread recipes, there might be other baking recipes. I don't have the book at hand now.
E. >>>
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:18:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Baker of Bagels in the 11th C
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
<<<
Regarding S.D. Goitein A Mediterranean Society--
the author died in 1985, so he could not have been using Annals of the
Caliphs' Kitchens. Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's Tenth-Century Baghdadi
Cookbook. English Translation with Introduction and Glossary by Nawal
Nasrallah.
So the question remains -- is there a footnote with the source indicated?
Once we know that we can track it. I own the Annals so if it can be
traced to Ibn Sayyar I can look it up. >>>
Sorry. Pointing to the Nasrallah translation, I did not mean to give the source of the Goitein, volume II, quotation, Samia mentioned. I assume the source for this quote will be one of the Cairo Geniza documents as well. (I guess, Samia will look up the footnote in question herself and let us know.)
Rather, my points were:
first: there is another passage in volume I ("A Jewish ka'ki or maker of cakes"). This might be important for what exactly we are looking for.
Second: the Nasrallah translation _might_ contain some contribution to Samia's question:
<< Does anyone have more specific information, or recipes for 11th- 12th C bagels? >>
Johnnae, if you could check the Nasrallah translation and see whether or not there are any recipes for bagel-like things, that would be great.
E.
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:12:08 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another leavening agent was Baker of Bagels
in the 11th C
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
On Mar 31, 2009, at 6:53 PM, Johnna Holloway wrote:
<<< Ok while checking in the circa 950 AD
Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens. Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's Tenth-
Century Baghdadi Cookbook. English Translation with Introduction and
Glossary by Nawal Nasrallah.
I came across mention of another leavening agent---
On Page 563 under an entry for khamir /khumra
/Nasrallah writes: "fresh yeast, usually a piece of fully fermented
dough saved from a previous batch. Medieval bakers also used
/buraq/ 'borax' as a leavening agent. Adding generous amounts
of yeast and borax is recommended in making bread because
fully fermented bread is believed to be easier to digest.
(Ibn al-Baytar 228)"
Borax?!?
Johnnae >>>
I understand borax is sometimes used in small amounts in hand-pulled
noodles in China, and I think it may appear in some of the wheat-dough
recipes for mantou in "A Soup for the Qan," although I could be
remembering that last part incorrectly.
I believe it's roughly akin to baking soda in pH, and it can be used
industrially as an antifungal, so one possibility is as a yeast
inhibitor, but for all I know it could have something to do with
gluten extensibility, hence its use in pulled noodles.
If that's the case, I could see it appearing in bagels for a lighter,
more elastic dough.
Bear? Tag, you're it.
Adamantius
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:32:46 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another leavening agent was Baker of Bagels
in the 11th C
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Curious. Sodium tetraborate decahydrate (borax) shouldn't react in a way to
act as a leavening. It is, however, a water softener and as such could
improve the quality of the bread. I note that it is used with yeast and not
as a separate leaven.
This might also be the reason for the "soda" in the recipe for bread in
Feast for the Qan.
Bear
<<< Ok while checking in the circa 950 AD
Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens. Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's Tenth-Century
Baghdadi Cookbook. English Translation with Introduction and Glossary by
Nawal Nasrallah.
I came across mention of another leavening agent---
On Page 563 under an entry for khamir /khumra
/Nasrallah writes: "fresh yeast, usually a piece of fully fermented
dough saved from a previous batch. Medieval bakers also used
/buraq/ 'borax' as a leavening agent. Adding generous amounts
of yeast and borax is recommended in making bread because
fully fermented bread is believed to be easier to digest.
(Ibn al-Baytar 228)"
Borax?!?
Johnnae >>>
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:07:47 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another leavening agent was Baker of Bagels
in the 11th C
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
On Mar 31, 2009, at 7:50 PM, I wrote:
<<< And, of course, I now can't find a single word in reference to it in A Soup for the Qan. Probably sometimes next year I'll find it in Ni Tsan or in a footnote. Generally my memory loses or misplaces things, but almost
never manufactures something I haven't actually seen. Of course,
there's always a first time. >>>
http://slurpandburp.blogspot.com/2006/01/imbb-22-lamian-chinese-stretched.html
This is a fairly lengthy blog diary on northern Chinese pulled
noodles, containing something of an argument between readers/posters
on whether they do, or should, contain a small amount of borax, and why.
The consensus among the people that think it belongs in those noodles
seems to be that in noodles, it's about gluten extensibility, which,
given the high gluten flour traditionally used for bagels, could be
said to make some sense.
Adamantius
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:47:59 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another leavening agent was Baker of Bagels
in the 11th C
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
David Waines did this article
Cereals, Bread and Society: An Essay on the Staff of Life in Medieval Iraq
David Waines Journal of the Economic and Social History of the Orient,
Vol. 30, No. 3 (1987), pp. 255-285 (article consists of 31 pages)
It's in JSTOR so I will get in later and get it.
Borax is mentioned in it. "Another type, bardzidhaj, differed from the
above in containing /borax/ *..."
It's rather hard to find but *Soup for the Qan does list Borax. It's on
page 77 in a section on breads.
It's said to be connected with a bread coming out of Armenia.
Johnnae
From: lilinah at earthlink.net [Add to Address Book]
To: MiddleEasternPersonas at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MiddleEasternPersonas] Baker of Bagels in the 11th C
Date: Mar 30, 2009 4:08 PM
Samia al-Kaslaania wrote:
<<< I ran across a passing comment about a Jewish "ka'ki" or "Baker of
Bagels" in Vol. 2 of Goitein's _A Mediterranean Society_.
Does anyone have more specific information, or recipes for 11th-12th C
bagels? >>>
Generally, in the SCA-period Arabic world, ka'k are what we'd call cookies. They are made of a soft flour or semolina dough enriched with butter. Bits of the dough are formed into rings or "bracelets" (but not big enough to put your hand through :-), placed on a "baking sheet", and baked in a "bread oven" (as opposed to a tannur). They are sweet, sometimes filled with chopped nuts and sugar, and are generally not yeasted.
In bagel making, yeasted dough is made, kneaded, allowed to rise, etc.; when that process is complete, bits of dough are pulled off and formed into rings, which are then allowed to rise again; then the dough rings are boiled for some time; when they've boiled enough, they are removed and drained; and finally the bagels are baked. This is similar to medieval European bretzels (thus written in some period sources), as they were also originally boiled then baked, and soft, not hard and crunchy, although differently shaped.
There are ka'k recipes in a number of surviving SCA period Arabic language cookbooks. If you'd like, i'll post them here.
There's an interesting discussion of ka'k, bagels, bageleh (which seem to be like simit), and pretzels at:
http://www.balashon.com/2008/04/bagel.html
This discussion of ka'k on Wikipedia discusses only modern or recent types, not medieval:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka%27ak
I'll have to get around to editing that to add more historical info (yeah, i'm a wikipedian)
There's also a very interesting discussion of bagels on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagel
I need to check the SCA-Cooks list, because i know bagels have come up there...
[Disclaimer: i have not edited or contributed to either of those articles]
If there's more to Goitein's interpretation of ka'k as bagels beyond the shape, i'd love to know.
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 19:05:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Baker of Bagels in the 11th C
To: SCA-Cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it> wrote:
<<< Here is the passage from volume II, where G. comments on "baker of cakes" and "baker of bagels":
http://books.google.com/books?id=QH3BHQulNpsC&;printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:ISBN0520221621&hl=de#PPA297,M1
Alas, the note 27 is not part of the preview. >>>
Footnote 27 gives the source of "the same Jewish baker of bagels" taking a loan from a Muslim miller before paying back the first loan. It sheds no light on Goitein's interpretation of "ka'k" as "bagel". (yes, i have the complete 6-vol. set of "A Mediterranean Society")
As i posted, in medieval Arabic language cookbooks "ka'k" are usually what we'd call "cookies" (more archaically "cakes"). Some area formed into rings, some have sweet filling (e.g., almonds with sugar), some are dipped in syrup. Some are not formed into rings, but are formed with a mold and stuffed with date filling, basically like modern mamoul. I'll be happy to post some SCA-period recipes, if anyone likes. Apparently another item called "ka'k" is a ring-shaped bread that is intentionally dry, handy for travelers - i forget where, but somewhere i read it referred to as a type of "hardtack".
In the modern Middle East, there are, to the best of my knowledge, two items called "ka'k". One is a "cookie" very similar to the medieval kinds. The other is a bread ring, unlike any bagels i know, covered with sesame seeds, and which seems to me to be like, if not identical to, the modern Turkish simit. Neither is boiled before baking.
Apparently in Israel in the 20th and 21st centuries, the simit-like sesame-coated bread is called by the Yiddish "bagaleh", the diminutive of the Yiddish "bagel" (Yiddish being a dialect of High German). However, the modern Israeli bagaleh is not smaller than a typical bagel, and is baked in an oven without being boiled first, which is typical of bagels as i've known them. I've also read that "bagaleh" can also refer to something like what we in the US called a "soft pretzel" (since most of ours are hard and dry and crunchy).
So i am skeptical of calling a "ka'k" a "bagel" just because it's make of flour, formed into a ring, and baked in an oven.
P.S., why is a bagel boiled before baking?
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 23:40:04 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Baker of Bagels in the 11th C
To: <lilinah at earthlink.net>, "Cooks within the SCA"
<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
<<< P.S., why is a bagel boiled before baking?
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) >>>
Boiling the dough gelatinizes the starch on the surface of the dough sealing
the crust, producing the even sheen on the surface, and setting the shape of
the bagel. The bagel's moisture retention and chewy texture are also
results of the gelatinized crust.
Bear
<the end>