bagels-msg

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bagels-msg- 1/10/08

Period bagels.

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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:12:45 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Travel Bread

> Just a general question..... Dr. Henry Lumpkin in his lecture series "The

> History of Warfare" Made the statement that travel bread was made in a bagel

> shape, threaded through rope and hung around the horses neck when traveling

> light (Such as a Knight on horseback).

> I was wondering if any of you bread experts

> out there could point me to an actual written historical reference to

> this?

> Did traval bread sometimes come in the form of a bagel and was the

> function to be hung on a rope?

> Corwyn

I've never come across this one. I'm not sure I would find a bagel salted

with horse lather very palatable.

Frankly, most of the travel breads I am familiar with are double baked

breads like hardtack or flat bread. These would most likely been wrapped in

a cloth and carried in a pack or a saddle bag. Hanging food around the neck

of a horse is the kind of thing I would expect of a post rider or by troops

on a forced march, rather than just travelling.

A water bagel with its tough skin and its' moisture retaining properties

might make a good travel bread, but I haven't seen a reference to bagels

being used this way.

Most breads with center holes are shaped that way to insure they bake

properly. That they can be hung from a staff and sold is an added

advantage.

Apocryphally, the bagel was first made in 1683 to Jan Sobieski's victory

over the Turks. But there are supposed to be some earlier references to

them. There is some archeological evidence that a bread of this type was in

use by the Uighurs as early as 100 CE.

Bear

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 22:58:46 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Views on British Food

>> (and don't get me started on bagels!)

> I would love to here about bagels...

> found a period reference in a chronology of the history of food on soured

> cream cheese recently and so was actually just thinking of bagels

> Lady Gwyneth Blackrose

> Graywood

The earliest known reference to beygls is found in the regulations of

Cracow, Poland from 1610. The bread itself may be much older, but the

sources are sketchy.

Bear

Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:33:23 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pretzels & bagels

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

>>>

This whole "malted water" thing has me fascinated. I had many bagel

making discussions with a Hebrew chef. He didn't add anything to the water,

nor have any of the recipes I have seen added stuff to the water. He did

insist of refrigerating them for an hour before baking....

Samrah (who used to make a good batch of bagels and still makes a good bread)

<<<

IIRC, malted water appears in Bernard Clayton's book of French breads, so it

may be a French thing. Having tried it, dropping the bagels into malted

water improves the flavor without being overpowering. BTW, not all bagel

recipes call for the bagel to be dropped in boiling water.

Traditionally, the bagel was created by Austrian bakers to celebrate John

III Sobieski's raising of the Siege of Vienna (the same one that saw the

start of coffeehouses in Vienna) in 1683. Unfortunately for tradition,

there are apparently regulations from Krakow in 1610 covering the bagel.

That there are no particular religious regulations attached to the bagel

suggest that it was a bread made by all manner of bakers and that the

"Jewish affinity" to the bagel is a latter phenomenon.

I'm still trying to locate a source for the baking regulations in Krakow.

They get mentioned in passing in various sources, but copies of the actual

regulations seem to be elusive.

Bear

Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:57:08 -0800

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] bagels

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Pennsic before last (I think) we attended a

class on Italian cooking, which included a

handout which included what appears to be a bagel

recipe from Messibugio. I think the class was by

an apprentice of Master Basileus Phocas (sp?),

but am not sure. The recipe is on page 39 of my

copy of Libro Novo and is the second recipe

given. In the original, the title is:

Brazzatelle di latte, e zuccaro

It occurs to me, after reading Bear's post on

pretzels and bagels, that the word is probably

related to "pretzel" and one could interpret the

recipe as a pretzel rather than a bagel recipe.

Are pretzels boiled and then baked?

Here is the translation that was handed out, and how I made them.

Bagels of Milk and Sugar

from Messibugio, Libro Novo 1557

To make fifty bagels of four ounces each you will

take fifteen lbs of best flour, three ounces of

rose water, three pounds of milk, two pounds of

white sugar, 25 eggs, four ounces of butter, and

you will knead these things together very well.

Then you will make your bagels according to the

method you want to use, and then you will let

rise with careful attention, and after it has

risen you will boil your water, and then you will

place inside the above-mentioned bagels to cook,

and when they come to the top you will take out,

and then you will put in fresh water, and when

you have removed them from within you will put

them to cook in the oven, and if you want to put

inside anise it is a good deed.

-----------------

Here is how I did it:

(1/6 quantities)

2 1/2 lb flour--about 8c

1/2 oz rose water

1/2 lb milk--about 1 c

1/3 lb sugar=2/3 c

4 eggs

8/9 oz butter

(1 c sourdough)

Aniseeds

Note 1: The recipes says it produces fifty bagels

weighing four ounces each, but uses about 18-20

lbs of ingredients, after allowing for cooking

off the water in the milk. I concluded that it

was using a 12 ounce pound, like the troy pound

or the Islamic ratl, rather than a 16 ounce

pound. The finished bagels weighed about 7

avoirdoupois ounces, which is still a little

heavy; on my assumption it should have been 5 1/3

ounces.

Note 2: The recipe is for a leavened bread, but

no leavening is mentioned. My guess is that it is

using either sourdough or a kneading trough with

its own yeast culture. I used sourdough.

Note 3: The reasons for interpreting this as

bagels are the boiling/baking sequence, the size,

and the reference to making the bagels according

to the method you want to use, which suggests

some special shape or shapes.

Combine flour and sugar; cut in the (softened)

butter. Combine the liquid ingredients, including

the sourdough, mix, add to the dry ingredients

and knead until you have a smooth dough. Cover

with a damp towel, let rise at least nine hours.

Then divide into nine equal portions, roll each

into a cylinder about 9-10" long, join the ends

to form a torus (i.e. bagel shape). Leave it

until it has risen again, which should be another

five hours or so at room temperature (i.e. 70°

F). Your rising times may differ from this,

depending on your sourdough culture.

When the bagels have risen, fill a pot at least

five inches deep with water, if possible more.

Bring the water to a boil. Put in as many of the

bagels as you can manage without to much of a

problem of sticking. Boil until they rise to the

top, which should start happening in three or

four minutes. Make sure they have not stuck to

the bottom; if they have loosen with a spatula

(pancake turner). When each bagel floats to the

top take it out, dunk it briefly in a bowl of

water, drain, put on a cookie sheet or the like.

Bake them in a 400° oven until brown--about 20

minutes.

If you like, before putting them in to bake sprinkle on aniseed.

David/Cariadoc

www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:17:43 -0700

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period pretzel recipes?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> I'd like to make some pretzels and was wondering if anyone has

> come across any period recipes.

> I see them in the pictures in later period paintings, but so far

> haven't found a recipe.

> Grace

There is an Italian recipe for Brazzatelle, or some name close to

that, from Messibugio, Libro Novo 1557. I haven't been able to find a

translation of the word, but it looks as though it is either bagels

or pretzels.

Here is the recipe as translated by someone who thought it meant bagels:

---

Bagels of Milk and Sugar

from Messibugio, Libro Novo 1557

To make fifty bagels of four ounces each you will take fifteen lbs of

best flour, three ounces of rose water, three pounds of milk, two

pounds of white sugar, 25 eggs, four ounces of butter, and you will

knead these things together very well.

Then you will make your bagels according to the method you want to

use, and then you will let rise with careful attention, and after it

has risen you will boil your water, and then you will place inside

the above-mentioned bagels to cook, and when they come to the top you

will take out, and then you will put in fresh water, and when you

have removed them from within you will put them to cook in the oven,

and if you want to put inside anise it is a good deed.

David/Cariadoc

www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:50:39 -0400

From: "Mairi Ceilidh" <jjterlouw at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Not bagels, pretzels

To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

With all due respect to His Grace, Master Cariadoc, I must, as I did when we

had this discussion at Pennsic two years ago, disagree with his

interpretation of the translation of this recipe. I am not the person who

taught the class referenced here, but I have translated, researched,

interpreted and prepared this recipe. I did an Art/Sci entry based on it

some years ago.

My main concern is the necessity to leave the language in which to recipe

was originally written, and go elsewhere to stretch an association of

words.

In the 1611 edition of John Florio's Italian/English dictionary, which uses

Messisbugo's Libre Novo (the book in which thich recipe is published) as a

word source, we find a reference to the word brazzetto which sends us to the

alternates spelling braccietto. Braccietto translates to "a little arm" or

"bracer". The OED tells us that a bracer is something that goes around the

arm as a protector (loosely interpreted from multiple references). The

circular form of a bagel is much more likely to match this definition than

the multi-twist form of a pretzel. Extend the search to other forms of the

word in Florio's dictionary and we find Bracciatillo, a kind of roule or

bisket bread, we call them round simnels.

It seems obvious that it is not necessary to go outside the Italian language

to discern what Messisbugo is making in this recipe. Rolls formed in a

circle. Maybe not bagels, but certainly not pretzels.

Actually, it doesn't matter what you call the things. They are good, and

well worth the effort to make. Here is my interpretation of the recipe:

Brazzatelle Di Latte, E Zuccaro

Modern Redaction (as I interpreted the translation and prepared the

recipe)

4 pounds bread flour

1 ? T. rose water

1C. milk

? C. sugar

6 large eggs

2T. butter

2 t. salt

1 T. active dry yeast

1C. warm water

Several pinches anise seeds (optional)

Dissolve yeast in 1 C. warm water and set aside.

Scald the milk in a small saucepan, add the butter and allow to melt,

add the rosewater and cool.

In a large bowl, beat the eggs well. Add the yeast and milk mixtures

and stir well.

Add about 4 cups of flour and the salt to the liquid mixture. Stir until

roughly combined; continue adding flour, about a cup at the time until it is

difficult to stir. Turn onto a floured surface and knead until the dough is

smooth and elastic, about 10 minutes, adding flour if needed.

Leave the dough to rise, punch down. Cut dough into 4 ounce pieces. Shape

each piece as you like; preferably roll into a rope about 12 inches long,

joining the ends to make a ring. Place the rolls on an oiled baking sheet

and allow to rise for 45 minutes, or until about double in size.

Preheat the oven to 400 F. Heat a large pot fill with water to a simmer.

Boil the rolls, four to six at the time (do not let them be crowded in the

pot) for about five minutes on each side, or until they are well puffed and

float. Place the boiled rolls on an oiled baking sheet, sprinkle with anise

seeds, if desired. Bake for 40 minutes, or until golden brown.

If anyone would like a copy of my documentation, which is four years old and

possibly not as detailed as it might be were I writing it today, please

contact me with your email address. It is in a word document which I can

send as an attachment.

Mairi Ceilidh

<<<<

Messibugio has a recipe which I originally encountered in a class at

Pennsic some years ago, with the title translated as "Bagels of milk

and sugar." The italian original is "Brazzatelle di latte, e

zuccaro." When we tried the recipe, it occurred to me that the

process--boil then bake--could describe either bagels or pretzels, as

would the implication of some specific (but not stated) shape. And

the name could be related to "bracelets" for bagels, or to "pretzel."

It finally occurred to me to check the etymology of "pretzel."

"[German Brezel, Pretzel, from Middle High German bremacr.gifzel,

premacr.gifzel, from Old High German brezitella, ...

I think that's close enough to establish a strong presumption that

it's a pretzel recipe.

David/Cariadoc

www.daviddfriedman.com >>>