fd-n-Shkspear-msg - 12/23/08 Mentions of food in Shakespeare's works. NOTE: See also the files: fd-in-Chaucer-msg, books-food-msg, online-ckbks-msg, rec-in-verse-msg, rec-tim-pray-msg, fd-paintings-msg, Bread-Hist-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:25:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vincent <tom.vincent at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Funeral foods ... To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> From Romeo & Juliet (Act 4, Scene 4): LADY CAPULET: Hold, take these keys, and fetch more spices, Nurse. NURSE: They call for dates and quinces in the pastry. Enter CAPULET CAPULET: Come, stir, stir, stir! The second cock hath crowed. The curfew bell hath rung. 'Tis three o'clock. Look to the baked meats, good Angelica. Spare not for the cost. So maybe dates and quinces and pastry and baked meats go together? http://shakespeare.about.com/library/blglossB.htm considers 'baked meats' to mean 'meat-pies, pastry'. "Judith L. Smith Adams" <judifer50 at yahoo.com> wrote: ====== Sandra Kisner wrote: > >Well, the first thing that comes to mind is Hamlet's little joke >> about Gertrude and Claudius' wedding being so soon after the death of >> Hamlet the Elder that they could recycle the leftover pies from the >> funeral for the wedding feast... >> >> Adamantius Just for clarification, the quote actually goes: "Thrift, thrift, Horatio! the funeral baked meats Did coldly furnish forth the marriage tables." I wasn't under the impression that specifically meant pies. Sandra So, scholars and cooks, what do we know about what Shakespeare meant - or didn't - by "baked meats"?? Judith ====== Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 07:24:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion? To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> --- Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps <dephelps at embarqmail.com> schrieb am So, 6.7.2008: <<< Shakespeare mentions in his plays oranges twice, lemons once and limes twelve times. In the case of limes this would suggest more than a passing acquaintance with the fruit. >>> Which opens the question which fruit Shakespeare was talking about. A problem in the German corpus is that loan words from various languages are used to describe citrus fruit. The common 'Limon(i)e/Limun(i)e', e.g., probably actually describes the lemon (modern German Zitrone) rather than the lime (modern German Limone). Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 04:08:38 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion? To: <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>, "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Volker Bach" <carlton_bach at yahoo.de> --- Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps <dephelps at embarqmail.com> schrieb am So, 6.7.2008: <<< Shakespeare mentions in his plays oranges twice, lemons once and limes twelve times. In the case of limes this would suggest more than a passing acquaintance with the fruit. >>> Which opens the question which fruit Shakespeare was talking about. A problem in the German corpus is that loan words from various languages are used to describe citrus fruit. The common 'Limon(i)e/Limun(i)e', e.g., probably actually describes the lemon (modern German Zitrone) rather than the lime (modern German Limone). -------- I've found several references to lime in Shakespeare. In Richard II, the reference appears to be to limestone. In Henry IV, it's a reference to the practice of adding alkaline earth to fortified wine with a similar reference in The Merry Wives of Windsor. Midsummer Night's Dream appears to be a reference to either limestone or cement. In Henry VI are references to using bird lime to trap birds and meaning "to cement". I haven't found anything to suggest that Shakespeare was referring to the fruit of C. medica, in fact all such references in English appear to begin in the mid-17th Century. Also, lime or lime tree can be a reference to a linden tree, although the reference I have found are 17th Century. I would like to know where the references I haven't found appear in Shakespeare, so that I might review the context. Bear Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 10:08:19 -0500 From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion? To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> I have a book that lists all the food references in the Bard's plays. It is titled "Butter on the Bard." That is where I found the number of references to oranges, lemons and limes. I will need to look for it. Daniel Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 09:51:33 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Food in Shakespeare To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> Here's an interesting site on food references in Shakespeare's works: http://www.soupsong.com/ibard.html . On the question of citrus in the Bard's plays, it shows two references to oranges in Much Ado About Nothing and a reference to lemons in Love's Labor Lost, but nothing about limes. Bear Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 19:37:29 +0000 (GMT) From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it> Subject: [Sca-cooks] (No) Limes in Shakespeare To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org <<< Here's an interesting site on food references in Shakespeare's works: http://www.soupsong.com/ibard.html . On the question of citrus in the Bard's plays, it shows two references to oranges in Much Ado About Nothing and a reference to lemons in Love's Labor Lost, but nothing about limes. Bear >>> Also, Alexander Schmidt, in his two-volume Shakespeare-Lexicon does not mention the fruit in the entry "lime": "Lime, subst. 1) a viscous substance laid on twigs to catch birds, bird-lime, ... 2) the matter of which mortar is made ..." (volume I, page 655). E. Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 14:50:39 -0700 From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion? To: carlton_bach at yahoo.de, Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> --- Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps <dephelps at embarqmail.com> schrieb am So, 6.7.2008: <<< Shakespeare mentions in his plays oranges twice, lemons once and limes twelve times. In the case of limes this would suggest more than a passing acquaintance with the fruit. >>> Which opens the question which fruit Shakespeare was talking about. A problem in the German corpus is that loan words from various languages are used to describe citrus fruit. The common 'Limon(i)e/Limun(i)e', e.g., probably actually describes the lemon (modern German Zitrone) rather than the lime (modern German Limone). ----------- Other possible sources of confusion, depending on just what Shakespeare says, are that "lime" is also used for the linden or basswood tree and for Calcium Hydroxide. I did a Google search of the site http://shakespeare.mit.edu/, which has all of Shakespeare on it, for "lime." None of the 13 hits appears to refer to the fruit. Most of them are references to the chemical, used either for catching birds ("Like lime-twigs set to catch my winged soul") or in mortar ("Within the limits of yon lime and stone:"). -- David Friedman www.daviddfriedman.com Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 22:56:05 -0500 From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion? To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> Let me see thee, froth and lime. Host, The Merry Wives of Windsor, 1,3 While the title is "Butter in the Bard", after the pervious discussion I cannot speak for the author's ability to tell lime quick or otherwise from the citrus fruit. Daniel Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 23:08:04 -0500 From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion? To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> Biron: A lemon. Longaville: Stuck with cloves. Loves Labour's Lost, 5,2 Daniel <the end> Edited by Mark S. Harris fd-n-Shkspear-msg Page 5 of 6