fd-in-Chaucer-msg - 12/22/08 Mentions of food in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. NOTE: See also the files: cookbooks-bib, online-ckbks-msg, fd-Anglo-Saxn-msg, fd-Wales-msg, England-msg, Tavern-Feast-art, pilgrimages-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 13:52:31 -0500 From: johnna holloway To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Food mentions in Chaucer Stefan li Rous wrote: > Has anyone ever researched the food references in Chaucer? I know > Adamantius recently mentioned there were some, and I found a more > complete reference to this in the Florilegium, but right now I > don't remember what subject was being discussed. http://www.godecookery.com/chaucer/ccookery.htm has A Chaucerian Cookery: examines the references to food and dishes in all of Chaucer's writings, studies the dietary habits of his characters, and gives a complete list of all foods Chaucer refers to. Included is A Chaucerian Feast, which presents an authentic Medieval feast based on the writings of Chaucer and corresponding 14th c. recipes. Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 14:35:58 -0500 From: johnna holloway To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Food mentions in Chaucer See also: http://icg.fas.harvard.edu/~chaucer/special/lifemann/manners/feast.html and the paper by Hieatt, Constance B. " A Cook of 14th-century London: Chaucer's Hogge of Ware." Cooks & Other People. Oxford Symposium on Food, held in 1995. published 1996, pp. 138-143. Johnna Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 02:45:29 -0700 From: "Laura C. Minnick" Subject: [Sca-cooks] [Fwd: Nutmeg in stale ale] To: SCA-Cooks So, what do you all think? Why is the nutmeg in 'stale ale'? 'Lainie -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Nutmeg in stale ale Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 11:22:26 +0200 From: Brian S Lee To: CHAUCER at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Fresh from a reading of John Keay's history of _The Spice Route_ (2005), I can better appreciate the absurdity of Thopas's adventuring into the forest of exotic spices incredibly located in Flanders. Chaucer selects the rarest and so most valuable of spices, cetewale (zedoary) from Java, cloves from Ternate, and nutmeg from Banda, each further east than the last, but their origins in the mysterious regions beyond India totally unknown in medieval Europe. Pepper, the commonest spice, he significantly doesn't mention. Thopas's world is one of precious luxury, marred by the sudden injection of reality, that stale ale which was doubtless all too common in the experience of readers (hearers) of tail-rhyme romances. Nutmeg, apparently, is a prestigious thing to keep in the kitchen cupboard ("in cofre"). You wouldn't waste your most valuable spice (would you?) in stale ale. Would it help to improve or disguise the flavour if you did? Never having tried it, I await the comments of the culinary experts on this list. The Host wanted a drink of moist and corny ale to help him recover from the Physician's Tale: does moist simply mean fresh? Isn't all ale moist? Is stale the opposite of moist, the result of neglect or poor brewing perhaps, or are these technical terms for different kinds of ale? Why put nutmeg in both kinds, or is "stale" simply Chaucer's hint at the thoughtless use of cliches for rhyme in the romances he's burlesquing? Brian Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 07:45:07 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] [Fwd: Nutmeg in stale ale] To: Cooks within the SCA On Aug 2, 2008, at 5:45 AM, Laura C. Minnick wrote: > So, what do you all think? Why is the nutmeg in 'stale ale'? "Stale", as in "stale ale", and in fact as in, "English ale, good and stale," is regarded by brewers and drinkers as a good thing, in case that matters. It means it's fully fermented, and is not only at full potency, but also doth not engendyr wynde, etc. So while I have no idea as to why the nutmeg's there, it's probably not a matter of throwing good money after bad. Adamantius Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 08:23:15 -0700 From: "Laura C. Minnick" Subject: [Sca-cooks] [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Nutmeg in stale ale]]] To: SCA-Cooks More questions! -'Lainie -------- Original Message -------- Which raises the further question: is the moist ale which the Host and Pardoner seem to want or expect on the pilgrimage a cheaper or inferior brew likely to be more readily available or perhaps easier on the palate and stomach in the quantities ale drinkers seem to prefer? Is there evidence that anyone in the Middle Ages expected the nutmeg to have hallucinogenic properties? There is at least one Google site that suggests that if you can bear to eat enough of it you may start to see little pink men from Mars, or the like. I don't advise the testing thereof -- a poor druggie self-centered enough to describe his experiment on the internet found it tasted so horrible that he was obliged to mask it with so many other substances that it's hard to know what caused his mild disorientation during his excruciatingly boring day diarized in detail while his mother had left him alone. Brian Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 12:34:56 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Nutmeg in stale ale]]] To: Cooks within the SCA On Aug 2, 2008, at 11:23 AM, Laura C. Minnick wrote: -------- Original Message -------- Which raises the further question: is the moist ale which the Host and Pardoner seem to want or expect on the pilgrimage a cheaper or inferior brew likely to be more readily available or perhaps easier on the palate and stomach in the quantities ale drinkers seem to prefer? >>> You might take a look here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=601639 I gather that "moist" in Chaucerian ale terms is the polar opposite of "stale". Neither is bad and either can be appropriate for certain specific conditions, but it's conceivable that moist ale was cloudy and still had bits of unsettled grain and yeast in it, and while deprecated by some later medical authorities such as Boorde, it may have been considered more robust and more filling for someone on a journey. On the other hand, a bellyful of active yeast isn't necessarily the first thing I'd be looking for to get ready to walk all day. <<< Is there evidence that anyone in the Middle Ages expected the nutmeg to have hallucinogenic properties? >>> I don't think that's a period concept; I believe that's a discovery made in the 20th-century American prison system, and one highly disputed, at that, but everyone seems to agree that it takes a large amount of nutmeg to have any effect. Adamantius Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 13:43:07 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] [Fwd: Nutmeg in stale ale] To: "Cooks within the SCA" <<< So, what do you all think? Why is the nutmeg in 'stale ale'? 'Lainie >>> In the this context, Chaucer is likely using "moist" to mean "new" and "stale" to mean "old." Considering that traditional ale is unhopped and meant to be drunk immediately, that "old" is probably relative and may relate to a higher alcohol content as the fermentation will continue until all of the sugars are consumed. IIRC, Falstaff also adds mutmeg to his ale in one of Shakespeare's plays. I suspect the nutmeg is being added to the ale to give it some bite. The traditional ales I've encountered tend to be a little on the sweet side. Bear Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 14:50:26 -0400 From: Gretchen Beck Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] [Fwd: Nutmeg in stale ale] To: Cooks within the SCA --On Saturday, August 02, 2008 11:09 AM -0700 "Laura C. Minnick" wrote: <<< S CLEMENGER wrote: > Can you quote the original (pertinent) passage from Chaucer, for > context's sake? > --Maire From CT, Sir Thopas' Tale. I'm on my way out to an event- I'll try to find it when I get home if someone else hasn't found it first. 'Lainie >>> Ther spryngen herbes grete and smale The lycorys and Cetewale And many a clowe gylofre And Notemuge to putte in Ale Wheither it be moyste or stale Or for to leye in cofre ------------- There sprange herbes great and small, The liquorice and the setewall,* *valerian And many a clove-gilofre, <12> And nutemeg to put in ale, Whether it be moist* or stale, *new Or for to lay in coffer. toodles, margaret Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 15:20:55 -0400 From: Gretchen Beck Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] [Fwd: Nutmeg in stale ale] To: Cooks within the SCA --On Saturday, August 02, 2008 1:43 PM -0500 Terry Decker wrote: >> I suspect the nutmeg is being added to the ale to give it some bite. The >> traditional ales I've encountered tend to be a little on the sweet side. I think it's also being added to balance the humors of the ale (of course, in medieval cooking, I'm always amazed how taste and humors often follow each other:-)). Here's some lines: from Robert Greene (contemporary of Marlowe and Shakespeare), Looking Glass for London and England: "...I am a Philosopher that can dispute of the nature of Ale; for marke you sir, a pot of Ale consists of foure parts, Imprimus the Ale, the Toast, the Ginger, and the Nutmeg...The ale is a restorative, bread is a binder, mark you sir, two excellent points in physic: the ginger, O, ware of that! the philosophers have written of the nature of ginger, 'tis expulsitive in two degrees; you shall hear the sentence of Galen: "It will make a man belch, cough, and fart, And is a great comfort to the heart," a proper posy, I promise you; but now to the noble virtue of the nutmet; it is, saith one ballad (I think an English Roman was the author) an underlayer to the brains, for when the ale gives a buffet to the head, O the nutmet! that keeps him for an while in temper..." The ditty "The Nut-Brown Ale" by John Marston (1575-1634) more or less repeats this (or perhaps vice versa, or perhaps both just make fun of conventional wisdom) The nut-brown ale, the nut-broen ale Puts down all drink when it is stale! The toast, the nutmeg, and the ginger Will make a sighing man a singer. Ale gives a buffet in the head, But ginger under-props the brain; When ale would strike a strong man dead Then nutmeg tempers it again. The nut-brown ale, the nut-brown ale, Puts down all drink when it is stale! toodles, margaret Edited by Mark S. Harris fd-in-Chaucer-msg 6 of 6