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Stefan's Florilegium


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cookbooks4-msg - 1/23/09


Reviews of cookbooks with medieval recipes posted between June 1999 and June 2000.


NOTE: See also the files: cookbooks-msg, cookbooks2-msg, cookbooks3-msg, cookbooks5-msg, cooking-bib, cookbooks-bib, cookbooks2-bib, cookbooks-SCA-msg, cb-rv-Apicius-msg, cb-novices-msg.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.


Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org



[See cookbooks-msg for cookbook review messages posted before September

   1995. See cookbooks2-msg for reviews posted between September 1995 and

   November 1997]


Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 23:44:30 +0200

From: "ana l. valdes" <agora at algonet.se>

Subject: SC - primary sources


I come across two really wonderful books and I wonder if someone of the

list know them and can tell me if they are as good as I think they are.

One of them its written by Michele Savonarola, the italian humanist and

doctor and the title is "Libreto de tutte le cosse che si magnano;

un`opera di dietetica del sec XV". Its edited by the university in

Stockholm and curated and edited by a scholar named Jane Nystedt. He was

the oncle of Girolamo Savonarola, the famous priest. This work is a

complete treaty about vegetables, meat and fishes and I found this book

really fascinating.

The other one is a Spanish manuscript from 1593, written by Rodrigo de

Zayas, and discovered by a bookseller in London 1938.

I have the French version, "Mes Secrets ą Florence au temps des Médicis

1593", annotated by Stefano Francesco di Romolo Rosselli.

Are they good enough to be trusted as "primary sources"?

Mylord Ras, lord Stefan, messire Adamantius, messire Cariadoc, are these

books "reliable"?

(I am going to use some of their recipes about cooking methods of that

time, thats I need their "validation".

Yours in Seeking the Truth

Ana L. Valdés



Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 12:58:36 -0500 (CDT)

From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming)

Subject: SC - Old Cookery Texts: Bancroft Library (Long)


While in San Francisco, I found this book in a used book store.  Some

of the books listed below are “old friends”, having been put into the

popular press, so to speak.  But others were works I had never heard

of.  In general, I have only copied the information on books within the

SCA period, but I did include #1 because of our relatively recent

discussion of cat as food.  Because of the limitations of my computer,

I have not included the umlaut on German words, but would be glad to

inform anyone where they are.  Also, if anyone is interested, I would

be glad to list the full name of the references that are only given by



Questions:  Do libraries such as the Bancroft copy these materials for

dissemination?  Do they web any of them?


Alys Katharine



_One Hundred Sixteen Uncommon Books on Food & Drink_, From the

Distinguished Collection on Gastronomy of Marcus Crahan, published at

Berkeley by The Friends of The Bancroft Library, 1975.


1.  Altamiras, Juan.  Nuevo arte de Cocina, Sacado de la Escuela de la

Experiencia Economica, Madrid, Joseph Garcia Lanza, 1756. No copy

cited by any gastronomic bibliographer.  “The author stresses great

cleanliness on the part of the cook, and writes that giving stew meat

is cheating the master, like serving cat instead of hare.”


4.  Apicius.  Appicius Culinarius.   Mediolani, Guilermus le Signerre,



5. Argote de Molina.  Gonzalo (1549-1596?).  Libro, de la Monteria, que

Mando Escrivir el Muiy Alto y Muy Poderoso Ray Don Alonso de Castilla,

y de Leon, Vltimo Desde Nombre.  Acrecentado por Gonzalo Argote de

Molina.  Sevilla, Andrea Pescioni, 1532.  (Small folio, 6, 25 (i.e. 23)

(1), 91 f., much misnumbered.  Ex Libris William Stirling-Maxwell;

Thomas W. Streeter copy.   “There are thirty-seven plates (some used

more than once).  Many hunting sports are included, such as lion and

tiger hunting, ostrich huntin in Peru, pig-sticking and bullfighting in

the ampitheater.  Schewerd, page 44 and plate 97, describes this book

about hunting as ‘the earliest Spanish treatise on the subject,’ and

the edition as the first recorded.  He agrees with Gutierrez de la Vega

(Bibioteca Venatoria) in attributing the work to King Alfonso XI.”


6.  Arnaldus de Villanova (d. 1313?).  Hie nach Volget ein Loblich

Tractat eins Furneemen Doctors der Ertzney mitt namen Arnoldi de Nova

Villa der ein Kunigs vo Frankrich Gewesen ist.  Diser Tractat Haltet

inn von Bereitung vn Bruchung der Wein zu Gesuntheit der Menschen.

Wellisches Buchlin der Wilham vo Hirnkofen...von Latin zu Teutsch

Transferiet...Strassburg, Martin Schott, 1484.  (Small folio, (11) f.,

lacks initial blank, bound in new limp vellum.  Hain 1809; GKW 9 copies

only; BMC I: no copy in America; Goff A-1082, College of Physicians of

Philadelphia.  Ex Libris Harry Schraemli.  “The subjects treated

include wine making and the therapeutic use of wine.”


8.  Athenaeus, of Naucratis (fl. Third Century). Athenaevs

(Deipnosophistou.  Libri XV.  “Banquet des Savants.”) (In Greek

characters)  (Venetiis, Apvd Aldum, et Andream Socervm, 1514).  Large

folio, 38, (2), 294 (2)p., contemporary vellum binding enclosed in a

chamois lined chemise, itself encased in a half Niger, chamois lined

folding case.  Panzer VIII, 421, no. 689; Renouard, 1834, p. 67-68.

Proctor 12837.  “The Marcus Musurus version from the parchement

manuscript (A), brought by Aurispa from Constantinople in 1423.  That

manuscript is now lost.  The book is a symposium held by 21 artists,

writers, musicians and surgeons, disculling all things which, according

to Greek custom, shoule adorn a banquet.  The names of the most famous

gastronomists and of the most celebrated cooks are recorded.  The

virtues and qualities of wines are the subjects of long discourses.

Table ornament and decoration are also treated.”


9. Augustinus, Aurelius, Saint, Bishop of Hippo (354-430). Incipit

Liber Sancti Augustini de Anima et Spiritv...De Ebrietate...De Vanitate

Saeculi...De Vita Christiana...Ad Virgines de Ebrietate et de

Sobrietate... (Lauingen, Typographus Augustini de Consensu

Evangelistarum, 1472).  4*, (148) p., vellum binding, in a red Niger

solander case by Marcus Crahan.  Goff A-1224, 8 copies, this being the

eighth.  The BM and Huntington copies are defective.  “The first of two

books by an unknown printer in Bavaria, the second consisting of two

leaves.  The two tracts on sobriety and drunkenness are interesting for

the study of ancient medicine.  The designation of the author as

Augustine of Hippo is generally questioned.”


10.  Averroes (1126-1198).  Collectaneorvm de re Medica...Sectiones

tres. I. De Sanitatis Functionibus, et Aristot. & Galeno. II. De

Sanitate Tuenda, ex Galeno.  III. De Curandis Morbis. Lugdvni, Seb.

Gryphivm, 1537.  4*, (72) f. vellum binding.  Wellcome I. 568 (lacks

last leaf), not in Osler, Cushing or Waller.  “The first edition of

three medical treatises by the great medieval philosopher, the last of

the great Arab physicians.  The translator and editor of the present

volume, Jean Baptiste Bruyerin, a nephey of Symphorien Champier, was

physician to Henri II of France.”


11.  Bacci, Andrea (d. 1600).  De Natvrali Vinorvm Historia.  De Vinis

Italiae, et de Conuiuijs Antiquorum.  Libri Septem... Romae, Nicholai

Mutis, 1596.  Folio, (26), 370, (1) p., vellum binding.  “This is the

very rare first issue unknown to all bibliographers excepting De Bure

(Bibliotheque Instructive).  The author was physician to Pope Sixtus V,

and Professor of Medicine at Rome.


15.  Bavaria.  Bairische Lanndtsordnung.  1553. Ingolstadt (A.

Weissenhorn) 1553.  Folio, 197 f., (39) p., 19th century boards.

STC-German 71; SBG 164, who notes “how to deal with the habitual

drunkard.”  “The engraved title depicts Albrecht V of Bavaria

surrounded by courtiers.  There are woodcut crests to each subheading,

six double page woodcuts of fish representing the legal size of various

fish that may be caught, handsome initial letters, text in red and

black throughout, and a two page holographic extract at the end in an

early hand.  This constitutes an all-encompassing list of regulations

for beer, brandy, woodmen, hunters, fishermen and all craftsmen, with a

register for each part.  It is the masterwork of the Weissenhorn



17.  Belon, Pierre (1517?-1564).  La Nature and Diuersite’ des

Poissons, auec leurs Pourtraicts, Representez au Plus Pres du

Naturel... Paris, Charles Estienne, 1555.  Oblong 8*, (37) 448 p.,

vellum binding.  Ex Libris William Beebe.  “This is the first French

edition of a work first published in Latin, in Paris, two years

earlier.  Belon is looked upon as the founder of modern ichthyology,

and as one of the first workers in the science of comparative anatomy.

The work contains 189 woodcuts.”


18.  Berners, Juliana, Dame (b. 1338?) supposed author.  A Treatyse of

Fysshynge wyth an Angle by Dame Juliana Berners:  Being a Facsimile

Reproduction of the first book on the Subject of Fishing Printed in

England by Wynkyn de Worde at Westminster in 1496.  With an

Introductory by Rev. M. G. Watkins, M.A.  London, Elliot Stock, 1880.

Folio, xiv p., facsimile (23) p., printed on vellum, bound in dark

green levant morocco, with blind tooling in the panels, floral and

other tools, on sides, t.e.g. Bookplate of the Earl of Derby; from

Knowsley Hall.  “There is said to be only one copy on record of the

original of this book, whose contents were freely sampled by Walton,

Burton and others who followed the authoress’ philosophy of the

gentility of the angler, and of the moral as well as the physical

benefits of fishing.”


24.  Brunschwyg, Hieronymus (ca. 1450-ca. 1512). Medicinarius.  Das

Buch der Gesundheit.  Liber de Arte Distillandi Simplicia et Composita.

Das nuv Buch d’Rechte Kunst zu Distilliere.  Ouch vo Marsilio Ficino

vn anderer Hochberopmter (sic) Artzee naturlich vn gute Kunste zu

behalte den gesunde Leib vnd zu Vertryben die Kranckheit mit Erlengerug

des Lebens...(Strassburg, Johanne Grueninger, 1505). Large 8*, 130 f.,

blind stamped vellum over oaken boards.  “The text of this first

edition is rubricated throughout, and there are some decorated letters.

There are 256 plates of stills, herbs, and other plants and objects,

many hand colored.  Bound in before the text are four leaves in

manuscript; at the end there are 94 manuscript folios, dated 1604, with

6 folios following, in another hand.  (The text, in medieval German,

has not been translated, but it has been suggested that this manuscript

may be more valuable than the book itself.)  Inserted loosely is a 10

page index of plant names for Brunschwyg’s Liber de Arte Destillande

(1500), in recent script.”


25.  Bussato, Marco.  Giardino di Agricoltvra di Marco Bvssato da

Ravenna...Venice, Appresso Giouanni Fiorina, 1592.  4*, (8) p., 53 f.,

(3) p., bound in half vellum, marbled sides.  Brunet I, 1419; SBB II,

117 cites the third edition of 1599; L 76 cites the edition of Venice,

1612.  Not in B, Ma., Schr. or Westb.  “This first edition has 20 large

woodcuts, engraved chapter headings and initial letters, and a calendar

of months, each with an engraved scene appropriate to the seasons.  A

beautiful book of vines and fruit trees, and evidently quite rare.”


26.  Butler, Charles (1560-1647).  The Feminine Monarchie: or the

Historie of Bees....London, Iohn Haviland for Roger Iackson, 1623.  4*,

(190) p., 3/4 morocco, marbled sides, top edges gilt.  STC 4193, two

copies only, Library of Congress and Harvard.  None in England, more

rare than the first edition of 1609.  Ex Libris Sir John Stainer, with

a note in his hand.  “The frontispiece bee-hive is not unlike

Christopher Wren’s transparent hive.  There are twelve text figures, a

sound review of the history and management of bees, with recipes of

waxes, salves, mead, metheglin and hyssop, but most important is ‘The

Madrigal of the Bees,’ set to triple-time music on four pages to be

read from above and below.  This second edition is the first printing

to show the musical scores.  With the third edition the author, who was

a philogist, adopted phonetic spelling.”


28.  Castellano, Petro.  Preophagi’a (In Greek characters) Sive de Esv

Carnium, Libri IV....Antverpiae, Hieronymi Verdvssii, 1626.  8*, (8),

296 p., contemporary vellum binding.  V 153.  Not in B, Ma., Pen. or

SBG.  “The first edition of a curious learned work on the history of

all animals and birds that have served man for food.”


35.  Colerl, Johann (d. 1639).  Calendarium Perpetuum, et Libri

Oeconomici:...unnd netige Hausbucher, vor die Hauswirt/ Acker leut/

Apotecker/ Kauffleute/ Wandersleute/ Weinhern/ Garnter/ den gemeinin

Handwercksleuten/ unnd all den jenigen/... Wittenberg, Paul Helwig,

1592-1600.  4*, (92) f., (4) f., 207 p., (156) f., (118)f., original

blind and gold stamped panelled calf, with two brass clasps intact,

over wooden boards, arms stamped into both covers, I.H.A.S. (achsen?)

Graesse II 213 who has not seen the book.  Otherwise completely

unrecorded.  “Each title is in red and black, each has large vignette

arming scene in two colors, and the calendars are also in two colors.

Each text page is bordered in type ornaments with woodcut initials and

tail-pieces.  A woodcut shows the lunar cycle.  The second part is said

to be the first work on household and farm management. Part three

discusses the vine, fruits, vegetablels and cookery.  Part four treats

of agriculture.  The first edition.”


41.  Corti, Matteo (1475-1542).  Matthaei Cvrtii Papiensis de Prandii

ac Caenae Modo Libellus.  Romae, Apud Paulum Manutium, Aldi F., 1562.

4*, (4) p., (1) f., 90 p., full green morocco, blind and gilt stamped,

with the Aldine Device deeply stamped into both covers, inner

dentelles, bound by R. Storr of Grantham.  Gr II 310; STC Italian 207;

V 240; B 111 (1566 only).  Ex Libris Syston Park Library; Ex Libris Sir

John  Hayford Thorold; Ex Libris Henry J. B. Clements.  “This is the

first edition of this work on dietitics, published posthumously by the

author’s son Raphael Corti, and dedicated to Carl Borromeo, Pope Pius

IV.  The author was physician to Pope Clement VII, and to Cosimo I,

Grand Duke of Tuscany.  The title and last leaf have a red, blue and

gold Cardinals Arms.  The first edition is rare:  the National Library

of Medicine has only the second, octavo edition (Rome, 1566).”


42.  Crescenzi, Pietro de (1230?-1320?).  Ruralium Commodorum.

(Augsburg) Iohanne Schussler, “Circit” 14 Marcias 1471. Folio, (211)

f., blind stamped red vellum over oak boards, brass corners, bosses,

clasps, one missing.  Goff C-965; Simon BB I-32 dates his (this) copy,

as does Goff, “circiter 16 ferier 1471.” evidently copying another

collation, since the colophon in this copy reads “circit” 14 Marcias

1471.  Ex Libris A. L. Simon.  “Initial leaf, recto, illuminated in

red, green, purple, gold and silver with an Italian coat of arms on

outer margin.  Text is rubricated in red, blue and green throughout.

Edition Princips of the first printed book on agriculture and



43.  Culpeper, Nicholas (1616-1654).  Culpeper’s Last Legacy:  Left and

Bequeathed to his Dearest Wife, for the Publicke Good, Being the

Choices and Most Profitable of those Secrets which while he Lived wre

Lockt up in his Breast, and Resolved Never to be Publisht till after

his Death....Never Publisht before in any of his other Works.  By

Nicholas Culpeper, late Student in Astrology and Physick. (London) N.

Brooke, 1655.  8*, various pagings, contemporary calf rebacked in a

solander case by Marcus Crahan.  Win C 7523 two copies only, BM and

Yale.  “This first edition includes a frontispiece portrait.  The text

is divided into three parts, with three titles and separate

paginations.  The advice covers many subjects:  for a corn on the toe,

‘Take a black snail and roast him well in a white cloth, bruise him and

lay him hot to the Corn, and it will take it away in a very short



46. Dodoens, Rembert (1517-1585).  Historia Vitis Vinique: Et Stirpivm

Nonnvllarum Aliarum.  Item Medicianlium Obseruationum

Exempla....Colonae, Apud Maternum Cholinum, 1580.  8*, (16), 169, (6)

p. Gr. II 416, only edition; SBB II 197; STC German 250; V 284.  Not in

B, L, Ma., Rothamsted or Westb.  Ex Libris A. L. Simon.  “This work on

wine includes a long list of authorities, and a history and

consecration of the vine, wine and eau de vie.  It is extremely rare.”


52.  Elyot, Sir Thomas (1490?-1546).  The Casell of Helth Corrected and

in Some Places Augmented by the first Author therof, Sir Thomas Elyot

Knight, the yere of our Lorde 1541.  (London, Thomoas Berthelet) 1541.

Small 8*, (7) 90f. (f. 74 is misnumbered 68 and the error continues to

the end, making a total of 97 + 7f.) eighteenth century calf in Niger

case by Marcus Crahan. Oxford 3 1539; SBB II 205 1539 second edition;

STC 7645, Q only, cites 15 editions from 1539 to 1610. Not in B,

Bish., L, Schr., V., or Westb.  “The tital has an engraved border with

column and arch, dated 1534.  The author, a diplomat, is said to have

incurred the wrath of physicians for writing this wrok on the physical

effects of various articles of diet, which was out of his field.  His

book called _The Governour_ gained him an appointment as ambassador to

Charles V.”


53.  Epulario, E Recettario, E Secreti Diuersi, E Mascalcia.  Folio,

(382) f., various pagings, bound in contemporary boards.  “A manuscript

collection of cookery, medicine, instructions for dyeing, perfumes,

varnishes, beautifying preparations, chemical procedures, etc., written

in a clear hand by an Italian scribe in the earliest years of the

seventeenth century.  Bound at the end are two large broadsides:

‘Diuerse Infermita, che possono Venire alle Bestie Bouine...di Gio.

Battista Ferrari Cavallerizzo Napolitano,’ Bologna, Gioseffo Longhi,

(ca. 1610), an engraing of an ox; and ‘Diuerse imfermit, che patiscono

I Caualli, con li suoi rimedij infallibili, e prouati,’ Bologna,

Gioseffo Longhi, (ca. 1610), an engraving of a horse. Loosely inserted

in the volume are three menus of banguest, two given to an English

Ambassador in 1612 (?).  An extraordinary manuscript, undoubtedly

composed by the maitre d’hotel of a great Italian household.  On the

verso of the title ‘La Mascalcia Toscana’ is inscribed ‘Della Libreria

di Gualterotto Guicciardini.’”


55.  Fioravanti, Leonardo (d. 1588).  Dello Specchio de Scientia

Vniversale, ...Libri Tre.... Venetia, Vincenzo Valgrisi, 1564.  8*,

(12), 313, (1) f. 18th century vellum.  STC Italian 252; V 365; Westb.

103; Gr. II 581 cites 1567 edition; SBB II 262 cites 1572; SBG 674

cites other title.  Not in B or L.  “The first edition of a general

work on arts and sciences, including art, architecture, cosmography,

geometry, medicine, perfumery, alchemy, law, distillation, aromatics,

agriculture, cookery and philosophy.”


58. (Galenus, Caludius, Pseud. Galen’s Calendar on Meus and Drynkys.

England, ca. 1420.)  18x13 cm., 6 f. illuminated manuscript on vellum,

20 lines to the page, vellum binding, solander case by Marcus Crahan.

“The names of the months are rubricated, with gold illuminated capitals

and foliated borders.  The three leaves of Galen’s Calendar on Metys

and Drynkys have been disbound and removed thogether with their cognate

leaves; with three illuminated manuscript pages in Latin. The Galen is

in Transition Middle English in humanist script retaining the

transition Middle English symbols.”


“A litteratim transcription of the beginning reads as follows:

   ‘Affter the furste prime afftyr the pyphyam rekyn x days affter and

the sonday nexte folewying schal all be closyd...’

   The Calendar continues with advice on such subjects as the dangers

of blood-letting, the values of wines at times of fasting, the choice

of figs and raisins in March.  In June one should eat ‘sawgw and

letuse;’ in July keep from ‘leccheri;’ in September eat all ripe fruit;

in Octover use most ‘newe wyne.’  In October blood may be let save on

the first and fifteenth days, which are perilous.”


67.  Hollyngus, Edmunds (1556?-1612).  De Salvbri Stvdiosorvm Victv,

hoc est:  De Literaturvm Omnivm Valetvdine Conseruanda, vitaq;

diutissime` producenda, libellus.... Ingolstadiii, Typis Ederianis, per

Andream Angermarium, 1602.  8*, (14), 145 p., contemporary vellum.  V

446 (wrong collation); Wellcome Cat. I 3285.  Not in B; Cushing; Gr.;

L; Osler; Schr.; SBB; Waller; Westb.  “Hollings, an English physician

born in Yorkshire, received his B.S. at Oxford. Renouncing

Protestantism, he withdrew to Rome and finally settled at Ingolstadt,

where he was appointed Professor of Medicine.  The section of this work

on food and drink includes quotes of Abernathy on English beer.”


79.  Missisbugo, Christoforo Di.  Banchetti Compositioni di Viviande,

et Apparecchio Generale, di Christoforo Di Missisbvgo, Allo

Illvstrissimo et Reverendissimo Signor il Signor Don Hippolito Da Este,

Cardinale de Ferrara.  Con gratia et Priuilegio.  Ferrara, Giovanni De

Buglhat et Antonio Hucher Compagni, 1549.  4*, (8), 71, (8) f., vellum

binding.  B 322, 1559 only; Ma. 1549, but with the title and two other

leaves missing; SBG 1048, 1549; Schr. 349, 1549; STC Italian 436, 1549;

V 596 cites 1549 with the wrong collation; Westb. 348, 1549.  Ex Libris

Joseph D. Vehling, noted bibiliograher of Apicius, with his three

labels.  “Illustrated with a large engraved portrait of Hippolito

d’Este, Cardinal of Ferrara, and two magnificent full-page woodcuts, a

banquetting scene, and interior of a kitchen.  Printed in an elegant

Italic type, this work is typographically as beautiful as it is rare.”

     “It contains valuable accounts of the banquets, balls, receptions

and fetes given at the Court at the time of Renee of Ferrara, daughter

of Louis XII of France, sister of the wife of Francis I, wife of

Hercules II d’Este.  The handsome woodcuts are by Antonio Hucher who

worked with the printer, engraver and priest of the diocese of

Clermont, Giovanni di Bulghat.”

    “This is probably the most important renaissance cookery book for

the history of manners and customs and food items of the period.”


83.  Muffett, Thomas (1553-1604).  Health Improvement: or, Rules

Comprizing and Discovering the Nature, Method, and Manner of Preparing

all sorts of Food used in this Nation.  Written by that ever Famous

Thomas Muffett, Doctor in Physick:  Corrected and Enlarged by

Christopher Bennet, Doctor in Physick, and Fellow of the Colledg (sic)

of Physitians in London.  London, Tho. Newcomb for Samuel Thomson,

1655.  4*, 296 p., mottled calf, elaborate gilt border, red gilt label

on spine.  B 327; Oxf. 27; Pen. 133; SBG 1063; Schr. 361; V 613; Westb.

C. 360; Wing M 2382.  Not in L or Ma.  “The author, a prominent London

physician and father of ‘Little Miss Muffet,’ compiled this essay on

foods and the manner of eating in about 1595.  He intended to

supplement it with a similar work on ‘drinks’ (page 221). He became

the MP for Wilton in 1597.  Facing the title page is the Imprimatur

leaf of the President and Censors of the College of Physicians.”


87.  Nun~ez de Coria, Francisco.  T.S.D.Aviso de Sanidad que Trata de

Todos los Generos de Alimentos, y del Regimento de la Sanidad,

Coprouado por los mas Insignes y Graues Doctores.... Madrid, Pierres

Cuisin, 1572.  8*, (18) 320 f., bound in later vellum. Palau 197378; V

632, 1586 edition.  Not in B, L, Ma., Pen., Schr., Simon, Waller,

Welcome or Westb.  Ex Libris A Conovas del Castillo.  “This is a highly

interesting and uncommon work on food, its properties and qualities, by

a 16th century Spanish physician.  There is a long chapter on wines,

followed by a treatise on women, dealing mainly with sex life.  Except

for Palau, this first edition is wholly unrecorded.”


92.  Plat, Sir Hugh (1552-1611?).  The Jewell House of Art and Nature.

Conteining diuers rare and profitable Inuentions, togehter with sundry

new experimentes in the Art of Husbandry, Distillation, and Moulding.

Faithfully and familiarly set downe, according to the Authors owne

experience, by Hugh Platte, of Lincolnes Inne Gentleman. London, Peter

Short, 1594.  4*, various pagings, contemporary calf binding, restored.

Huntington only in the U.S.; STC 19991, four copies.  “This is the

first issue of the first edition.  The book is divided into three

parts, each with separate title page and pagination.  Each title page

has an engraved border.  The arms of the Earl of Essex are on the verso

of the first title.  There is a large (26x36 cm.) folding plate with

sixteen mechanical and other figures, this plate being known in only

one other copy.  There are also seventeen text woodcuts and woodcut

initials, and type ornament tail pieces.”


93.  Platina, Bartholomeo (1421-1481).  Platynae de Honesta Volvptate

et Valitvdine Libriprimi Capita.  (Venice, Laurentius de Aquila and

Sybillinus Umbri, 1475).  Folio, (93) f., without signature or

catchword, 32 line, Roman letter, extremely wide margins, bound in

later limp vellum.  An allegedly earlier updated printing (Rome, Ulric

Han, ca. 1475) is cited by BMC V 239; Hanin 13051; and Proctor 3380.

“This copy has manuscript initials, some slightly decorated.  Before

acquiring this Platina, the present owner mentioned it in New York to

Bernard Rosenthal, who suggested it might be more than the ‘first

dated, printed cook book.’  Cary Bliss, at the Huntington, arranged an

inspection of all Ulric Han titles available to see whether there was

any pattern of dating or not dating his books, and whether his

typography was as sloppy as on his Platina.  It seemed probable than

(sic) Han had not printed the Platina.”

    “At length a note arrived from L. W. Hanson, Keeper of Printed

Books at the Bodleian:  ‘Mr. L. A. Sheppard, who is revising our

incunable catalogue, thinks that the dated Platina (this copy) is

earlier than the Rome edition.  He has noted that in the latter the

type is worn.  The book (printed in Rome) is therefore not likely to be

as early as 1475, but is more probably circa 1479.’”

    “Frederick R. Goff, of the Library of congress:  ‘I am interested

in your discussion of the probable first edition of Platina’s _De

honesta voluptate et valetudine._  Your case supported by Mr. L.A.

Sheppard has real merit.’”

    “This is the only book from this press.  Brunet IV, 690; Goff P

762, listing this copy; Gr. V 311; SBB I 78; Stillwell 693.  Not in

Westbury’s _Handlist of Italian Cookery Books_, but his estate lists a

copy.  The first edition of the first printed cook book.”


97.  Ryff, Fualtherum.  New Kochbuch Fur die Krancken. Wie mann

krancker Personen/ In mancherley fehl vn Gebrechen des leibs pflegen/

Mit zurichtung unnd kochung vieler nutzlicher gesunder Speiss/

Getranck/ un allen eusserlichen dingen warten sol.  Den

Branckenwartern/ unnd sunst tederman in der noturfft zu underweisung

gestelt/ Durch Gualtherum Ruff, Medicum.  Mit Keys. Gnaden un

Priuilegien.  (Franckfurt am Meyn, Christian Egenolff, 1545).  4*, (4),

152 f., Contemporary blind-tooled calf, repaired.  “Indexed with two

title-pages, the first printed in red and black with a red and black

woodcut of a kitchen, dining area and distant sick room; the second,

following the register, in black and white with a woodcut of nurses and

children around a sick-bed.  There are five woodcut illustrations in

the text.  This copy is clean and crisp with no defects. The first



98.  Ryori Monogatari.  (The Story of Cookery.  No place or publisher),

1643.  (In Japanese characters.)  4*, (50) f., in paper wrapper.  “This

is the first Japanese cook book.”


99.  Ryori Monogatari.  (The Story of Cookery.  No place or publisher),

1644.  (In Japanese characters.) 8*, (40) f., paper wrapper.  “This

first illustrated Japanese cook book shows a kitchen in which a large

fish is being carved, another large fish is being fanned while cooking,

and utensils and containers are shown on counters.  There is a large

screen in the background.”


100.  Scacchi, Francisci.  Francisci Scacchi Fabrianensis de Salvbri

Potv Dissertatio.  Romae, Alexandru Zannettum, 1622.  8*, (10), 235,

(13) p., contemporary vellum, leather spine label.  B 417; Ma, 110; SBG

1355; V 771.  Not in L, Schr. or Westb.  “This first edition is

illustrated with an engraved title and six gigure engraving of vessels

for hot and cold drinks.  This work, divided into 22 chapters,

discusses warm and cold drinks, wines, waters, wines with meals,

nutritive value, dilutions, bouquet, etc.  It is perhaps the earliest

book on making sparkling wines.”


105.  (Standish, Arthus) (fl. 1611).  The Commons Complaint.  Wherein

is Contained Two Speciall Grievances:  The first, the generall

destruction and waste of Woods in this Kingdome, with a remedy for the

same:...The Second Grievance is, The Extreme Dearth of Victvals.  Foure

remedies for the same:  I.  By a generall planting of Fruit-trees,...2.

By an extraordinary breeding of Fowle and Pullen...3. By a general

destroying of all kinde of Vermine, ...4. Prouing the abundance of

Corne that is yearly deuoured and destroyed by the infinite number of

Pigeons, kept and maintayned in this Kingdome.  London, Printed by

William Stansby, 1611.  4*, (16), 42 p., in a handsome panelled levant,

gilt with inner dentelles, marbled ends, by Marcus Crahan. STC 23 200,

Sir R.L. Harmsworth; Huntingon only, calling for 50 pages in error;

Bishop adds one copy at Yale.  Ex Libris Sir Richard Newdigate, Arbury.

“This is the first edition.  There were two others in the same year,

and a fourth in 1612.  The folding plate, shoing a plan for a mote,

gives the following advice:  ‘In the casting of the Mote, the best

earth must bee cast into the Plot, to raise it so as the House may

stand three or foure yards higher then (sic) the sides to the Moteward,

that the water may descend; and for pleasure there may be some king of

Quick-wood set about it....’”



Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 02:14:36 +0200

From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de>

Subject: SC - The winebook of Arnaldus de Villanova - was: Old Cookery Texts: Bancroft Library (Long)


Hi Alys/Elise,


thanks for this great list of books!


One of my old favourites is the treatise on wine by Arnald of Villanova:



6.  Arnaldus de Villanova (d. 1313?).  Hie nach Volget ein Loblich

Tractat eins Furneemen Doctors der Ertzney mitt namen Arnoldi de Nova

Villa der ein Kunigs vo Frankrich Gewesen ist.  Diser Tractat Haltet

inn von Bereitung vn Bruchung der Wein zu Gesuntheit der Menschen.

Wellisches Buchlin der Wilham vo Hirnkofen...von Latin zu Teutsch

Transferiet...Strassburg, Martin Schott, 1484.  (Small folio, (11) f.,

lacks initial blank, bound in new limp vellum.  Hain 1809; GKW 9 copies

only; BMC I: no copy in America; Goff A-1082, College of Physicians of

Philadelphia.  Ex Libris Harry Schraemli.  “The subjects treated

include wine making and the therapeutic use of wine.”



The textual tradition of this winebook shows several "adventures":


The first edition of the german text probably was published 1478 in

Esslingen by Fyner. A facsimile of this version together with an ENGLISH

TRANSLATION by Henry E. Sigerist was published 1943 in New York ("This

edition of the earliest printed book on wine limited to three hundred

and fifty copies...").


The German text of this first edition is based on two sources:

- -- Arnald's 'Liber de vinis' (e.g. available in his Opera omnia, Basel


- -- The 'tractatus de vino et eius proprietate' (publ. by Sigerist in the

Bulletin of the history of medicine, 1944), which is itself a version of

the 'Pelzbuch' of Gottfried von Franken (see: G. Eis, Gottfrieds

Pelzbuch, Muenchen 1944, repr. Hildesheim 1966).


The text of all the subsequent editions from 1479 onwards I have seen

differs from this first edition in three respects:

- -- the preface is reduced

- -- from the second printing (Augsburg: Baemler) onwards a new section on

the use of wine is inserted from the so called Hohenberg Regimen

sanitatis (first printed also by Baemler in Augsburg; the manuscript

tradition edited by Christa Hagenmeyer).

- -- a short section on mixing water and wine is inserted.


I have transcribed two versions of this text:

(1) the most important version of the second edition of 1479

(2) the quite unimportant version of the edition Strassburg 1483 (which

I transcribed in a time when I was happy to have _this_ edition which is

better than nothing)


NOW: If anyone is willing and able to web the Sigerist-translation of

the version 1478, I could web the transcription of the 1479 edition

together with a translation of the 1479-additions. I would love to web

the Sigerist-translation myself, but I do not sufficiently know the

American copyright and I do not want to get in jail by providing

electronic texts.





Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:17:42 EDT

From: THLRenata at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - cookery books


Seton1355 at aol.com writes:


_The Medieval Kitchen_

Recipes from France and Italy

Odile Redon >>


This is one of the best books in my (admittedly small) collection!


I made the Roasted Onion Salad for Caid's Pelican meeting potluck yesterday

and it got rave reviews.  It's quickly becoming our Barony's favorite dish as

well -- it was part of our prize-winning bring-your-own-banquet at Coronation

last month.



Barony of Altavia

Kingdom of Caid

Los Angeles, CA



Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:49:55 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Query re. Lorna Sass book


Susan P Laing wrote:

> Whilst looking for a supplier for Sass's book "To the King's taste" I found

> reference to another of her books.


> Can anyone give a quick review of this and advise if it's worth purchasing??


>      Sass, Lorna J.: Christmas Feasts From History ; NY, Met. Museum of Art &

>                 Chalmers CkBks, 1981, Paperback, VG Great American Cooking

> Schools


It's not bad as commercial secondary sources go; my best scenario would

be to pick it up off the remainder table at a discount. There are some

good recipes in it, as well as some [reasonably] well-researched menus,

some relying on heavy speculation, such as her Anglo-Saxon Yule feast. I

like the plum pudding in her Dickensian section.


And yes, of course, not all her work falls in the scope of the SCA, but

then this should only serve as a reminder that Sass, as with Cosman,

McKendry, et al, aren't working with SCA members specifically in mind,

and what we might view as inauthenticity is to them only common sense.





Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:31:27 -0400

From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)

Subject: Re: SC - Hroar Delurks!



>>Hroar, Curye is usually sold at Pennsic, that's where I got my copy.



Just FYI, Greg & I have webbed Forme of Cury as .jpg files at:



Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu

renfrow at skylands.net



Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:11:52 +0200

From: "ana l. valdes" <agora at algonet.se>

Subject: SC - Carole Lambert new book


I want warmly recommend Carole Lamberts new book, "Fetes Gourmandes au

Moyen Age". I got it today from France and its a wonderful fine arts

book with great photos from period utensils and artifacts, plus ten or

fifteen recipes from Taillevent, Menagier du Paris and other French

books. The recipes are reproduced facsimilar, translated later to modern

French and a modern adapted recipe is given too, plus comments about the

dietary uses at that time. A really enjoyable book!


For Frenchspeaking too: Libraire Gourmande, in Paris, have at last got

their online cathalog on the net. Great books and great cathalog.

The URL is http://www.librairie-gourmande.fr/





Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:46:40 -0500

From: Jenn/Yana <jdmiller2 at students.wisc.edu>

Subject: SC - Domostroi Recipes


Anya wrote on the original subject of Lefse/hleifr:

>for those intrested, there is a copy of the Domostroi in english now, and

>lists alt, rye, wheat and oats as grains avaliable in the time of Ivan the

>Terrible. Granted that's right at the end of period, but considering that

>it's Russian it's probably a bit behind the times.


>It also has chapters on feast foods, and two chapters of "recipies" on

>drinks and maily veggie dishes.


I just want to caution people on using the English translation of the

Domostroi for Russian food research.



The Domostroi is a great research aid, but the text underwent several

changes in its history.  The sections with recipes (chapters 64:2 through

66) are not period and may be of a _foreign_ origin, as Pouncy points out

in her introduction.  She says that they were added on sometime between

1600 and 1625.  The wedding section (chapter 67) and its menus do not

appear until after the addition of the recipes sections, again out of

SCA-period.  Now, I _am_ an advocate for making the cut-off date for

SCA-period Russia sometime in the mid-17th cen (pre-Peter the Great), but

the recipes sections should be used with recognition of their OOP-ness (as

Anya did).



While looking at Russian-language versions of the Domostroi, I have

discovered that Pouncy mistranslated and/or needlessly translated several

costume and food terms.  I feel that she should have left all the

"difficult" words untranslated or at least provide the original, (which she

did do for some terms).  For example, she calls a "dushegreya" a blouse,

something that it definitely is NOT (visit the Slavic Interest Group if you

want to find out what it really is).


I have been working on re-redacting the recipe "Russian Cabbage or Greens"

(found at http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Recipes_Done.html), in which

Pouncy translates "smetanka" as cream, when it could actually be any number

of foods (I tried to find my redaction notes, but they are under my Pennsic

and school stuff at the moment, sorry) including sour cream (which would be

nice since we don't have any evidence of sour cream in SCA-period Russia).

It is kind of fun to read it in Russian, it has the same feel as medieval

European recipes.


The gist of my tirade is that I do not fully trust the English translation

of the Domostroi (at least on my two pet subjects of clothing and food) and

I am mostly relying on it as a guide to help me quickly find references in

the Russian text.  Now, I am not fluent in Russian and I am _definitely_

not a scholar at the level that Pouncy is and her translation was a _great_

addition to the relatively few medieval Russian sources in English that we

have.  But unfortunately for us Pouncy did not do her translation with

historical reenactment in mind (my husband spoke to her on the subject at a

conference they both attended).


While I'm at it Anya, why don't you come on over and join us at the Slavic

Interest Group?  We could always use another cook for the Russian wedding

project (hint, hint).


Ilyana Barsova (Yana)  jdmiller2 at students.wisc.edu


Slavic Interest Group http://www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschp/slavic.html



Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:46:52 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Sour Cabbage Soup?


Varju at aol.com wrote:

> troy at asan.com writes:

> << After a bell went off in my head, I went and looked for the relevant

>  passage in Paul Kovi's "Transylvanian Cuisine". >>


> Could I get more information on this title?  It sounds like something Ireally

> need to add to my library. .. .


> Noemi


Oh, yeah, you do need this, especially for the Saxon recipes. (No, not

_those_ Saxons, the ones that came from Saxony in the 13th century to

live in Transylvania, silly!)


"Transylvanian Cuisine"

Copyright 1985 Paul Kovi

Crown Publishers, New York

ISBN 0-517-55698-7





Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 17:47:55 -0400

From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain at snet.net>

Subject: SC - Book question - *A Feast for the Eyes*


Got a catalogue from Yale University Press the other day - it ha a book in

it called *A Feast for the Eyes*, by Gillian Riley.  Two reviews are quoted

in the catalogue, as follows:


     "This handsomely designed offering, with 115 colour plates, a lively,

     witty text tracing the social history of food over some six centuries

     in Italy, Netherlands, Spain, England and France, and a [sic] array of

     recipes drawn from contemporary sources is a visual, mouth-watering

     delight. - David Mitchell, *Lookou*


     "This book seems almost edible; it is stuffed with gorgeous pictures,

     delicious recipes, and tasty stories about food and art.  Gazing on

     paintings from the National Gallery, Riley evokes the past through

     food.  Not all recipes will appeal to modern taste, but the tales and

     115 color illustrations surely will." - *Virginia Quarterly Review*


So - anybody seen this book?  Opinions?  Comments?


Laird Alasdair mac Iain of Elderslie

Dun an Leomhain Bhig

Canton of Dragon's Aerie  [southeastern CT]

Barony Beyond the Mountain  [northern & southeastern CT]

East Kingdom



Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 18:24:04 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Book question - *A Feast for the Eyes*


> Got a catalogue from Yale University Press the other day - it ha a book in

> it called *A Feast for the Eyes*, by Gillian Riley. Two reviews are

> quoted in the catalogue, as follows:


> So - anybody seen this book?  Opinions?  Comments?


> Alasdair mac Iain


I haven't seen this one, but I have seen some of her other works, even have

one or two.


She doesn't quote the original recipes, doesn't reference sources and her

bibliographies leave a lot to be desired.  The paintings are often more

interesting than the text.





Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:10:45 EDT

From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - SPICES


Seton1355 at aol.com writes:

<< My good lord husband recently gifted me with the book SEVEN CENTURIES OF

ENGLISH COOKING: A Collection of Recipes by Maxime de la Falaise.

This is from the back of the book. >>


Be very careful with this book.  While she is much more scrupulous about

listing the source, and often includes the original recipe, she makes a lot

of substitutions, omissions, and additions in her modern versions.  As an

example, she has a recipe entitled "Green pea soup with onions" or some such,

which she interprets as a green pea soup with sauteed onions and *green

beans*.  The original she's working from is Longe wortes de pesoun, which is

a pea soup with chopped up greens and onions.  Apparently she decided that

"wortes" were green beans and didn't realize that green beans weren't used in

European cookery at the time of this recipe.  She also adds an egg binder and

a variety of spices unnamed in the original to her "hedgehogs or yrchuns"


I find the book mostly useful for the originals, and occasionally for cooking

techniques or times, but compare the original and modern versions very

carefully, and don't expect her to have followed the original closely.


Brangwayna Morgan



Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:46:51 SAST-2

From: "Jessica Tiffin" <jessica at beattie.uct.ac.za>

Subject: SC - Petit Propos Culinaires - website


The latest edition of Petit Propos Culinaires, the food history

journal, advertises their new website at


The site apparently offers "what may be the biggest available

resource in the English language for food historians": "the

consolidated index to issues 1-55 of PPC and also the consolidated

index to the Oxford Symposium Proceedings 1981-1994."


Since my web browser has marked the occasion by refusing to function

this morning, I have been unable to see for myself, but hopefully

passing the URL on to all you food-types will relieve the frustration

a little!


in service,



Jehanne de Huguenin, called Melisant  *  Seneschal, Shire of Adamastor, Cape Town (Jessica Tiffin, University of Cape Town)



Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 08:31:31 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - favorite sweet


swbro at mail.telis.org wrote:

> Speaking of Esther Aresty's _The Delctable Past_, I picked up a copy of it

> at an auction this weekend.  It looks like a survey type of book, has

> anybody read it, and what do you think about it?


As I recall it had two or three recipes that were immensely popular (and

incidentally good food) and which were considered state-of-the-art in

the SCA 25 or 30 years ago, when there were fewer primary source

materials easily available. As with a lot of the older, less-used source

materials, it lives in the buried-and-only-semi-accessible layer of my

bookshelves, along with things like "Dining With William Shakespeare". I

recall Aresty's adaptations of such period recipes as the Mustard Sops

from Le Viandier de Taillevent, and an adapted eighteenth-century recipe

for Richmond Maids of Honor doing double-duty for both the

Georgian/Regency sweet and medieval darioles, even though they're pretty

different. Aresty is also the source of the recent hubbub on this list

regarding the Great Rosti Question.


In general I'd say she represents state-of-the-art SCA cookery, also

incidentally tasty food, from 30 years ago, which has been superceded by

just as tasty food made through better research.


As I've frequently said in the past, many of us unfairly revile books

like "Fabulous Feasts", and the one discussed above, for their

inadequacies, while at the time of their publication there wasn't a lot

else available in the way of source materials for those who didn't want

to deal with untranslated or unmodernized primary sources. There was no

"Take a Thousand Eggs or More", no second edition of "Pleyn Delit". No

first edition, in fact. Also, these books don't address the specific

needs of SCAdians very well at all, but they weren't designed to. They

were designed more for people to play at home with doing a medieval

feast that was more about costume-party fun than about education.

Authenticity wasn't considered important, and since it sold fewer books,

why include it as a criterion?


In any case, I have a soft spot in my heart for such books, and can't

bear to get rid of them, but I rarely cook from them today.





Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 12:32:32 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Re: Welcome to sca-cooks


ChannonM at aol.com wrote:

> "Maino de Maineri's early 14th century Opusculum de Saporibus, roughly,

> Little Book of Condiments, a sauce book in Latin,"


> Any chances of getting ahold of that one, for us liguistically challenged

> folk, in English?


> Hauviette


Speculum, Volume 9, Issue 2 (April, 1934), pp. 183-190


"A Mediaeval Sauce-Book", by Lynn Thorndike


Thorndike gives a brief precis or summary of the text in English, but

doesn't really translate the recipes word-for-word. Those are pretty

simple, though, because they are largely ingredients lists and fairly

simple to tackle with a dictionary even if you can't deal with the

grammar. The entire article is seven pages long, of which three are the

Latin text and one an excerpt from Villanova's Regimen Sanitatis for

comparison, the remaining three being Thorndike's commentaries and

footnotes. This was, of course, written for scholars in 1934, when it

was pretty much assumed that anyone studying Latin texts would simply go

ahead and learn Latin, so the commentary isn't completely geared for

those with no exposure to Latin at all. You can get a pretty good idea

of what the text says without much translation, though. The Latin is

also a medieval Milanese variant, not classical, so that Cassell's

dictionary won't be entirely helpful at times.


I got this through the JSTOR database which actually has the issues of

Speculum and a bazillion other journals online, but you have to be a

subscriber. I was afraid to ask what's involved to subscribe as an individual.


The site is http://www.jstor.org/


They also give a list of subscribing libraries; you could look and see

if there's a subscribing library close to you, and go and have the

librarian hook you up. In my case it was for the cost of $.20/printed

page, and all the ogling you want for free.


Another such subscribable database is ABC-CLIO, which seems to provide

abstracts of published articles, including ones from Smithsonian. I

don't _think_ you can get to the actual articles online via CLIO, though.


The maddening thing is that both these database systems, and others as

well, are accessible from a regular home dial-up internet connection,

but you can only get to the useful stuff by subscribing to the system,

and while a major university can afford one or several such

subscriptions, I probably can't.





Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 10:32:55 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: SC - Grewe's Almohade Cookbook edition


Hullo, all!


I thought people might be interested, if not happy about it.


Rudolf Grewe's translated edition of a Hispano-Arabian 12th-century

cookery text, tentatively entitled "The Almohade Cookbook", and referred

to as forthcoming in a Grewe article in Lambert's "Du manuscrit a la

table", appears never to have been published. At least not by E.J.

Brill, of Leiden, as Grewe had suggested.


I finally got an e-mail from a human being at Brill & Co., saying that

while they'd been interested in publishing it, they never did. The lady

gave no reason, but I suspect Grewe's final illness and passing intervened.


The manuscript in Arabic is still presumably out there, though.





Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 00:04:10 +0100

From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de>

Subject: SC - Grewe's Almohade Cookbook edition


<< I suppose there is no chance of getting a copy of the manuscript [of

the Almohade Cookbook]? >>


What Grewe called 'Almohade Cookbook' is part of what he called the

'Colin manuscript'. There is already an edition of this cookbook by

Huici Miranda (in two versions: one as a self contained publication in

1965, on in the 'Revista del Instituto de estudios islámicos 9/10

(1961/62), both mentioned by Grewe. Then there seems to be a translation

into modern Spanish by Huici Miranda (not mentioned by Grewe):

- -- A. Huici Miranda: Traduccion espan~ola de un manuscrito anónimo del

siglo XIII sobre la cocina hispano-magribi. Madrid 1966.


I had this translation in hands recently, but did not see the editions



Grewe said that the edition is not satisfactory mainly because of the

lack of notes and because the editor did not see, "that some of the

folios had been misplaced when the manuscript was bound", and thus,

"many recipes are truncated and improperly connected" (p. 142).


Thus, I assume that we have:

(1) two versions of a printed edition (that Grewe thought


(2) a translation into modern Spanish (based upon the edition Grewe

thought unsatisfactory),

(3) a manuscript "in poor physical condition": the whereabouts should be

mentioned in the Huici Miranda edition.





Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:07:20 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Maestro Martino da Como


- --- Thomas Gloning

<Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de> wrote:

> Would or could some kind soul say a few words about

> the following edition:


I wish I could, but my linguistic skills are



> -- Maestro Martino da Como, Libro de arte

> coquinaria. A cura di E.

> Montorfano e con introduzione di E. Travi. Milano

> 1990.


This is available in the Library of Congress, the

Folger Library, in Washington DC, Harvard Univ.

Library, and NY Public.  It has no ISBN.


> Should be a facsimile of the 15th-century manuscript in the Library of

> Congress together with a transcription. [I am aware of the edition in

> Faccioli (1966), the modern Italian rendering on the basis of another

> manuscript in Bertoluzza (1993) and the re-edition of the Faccioli-text

> together with the Platina-facsimile, that appeared in Udine in 1994.]


This last book:


Martino, da Como, 15th cent.

  Libro de arte coquinaria / Martino de Como ;

premessa e commenti de Paolo Micoli.  Udine : Societa

filologica friulana : Arti grafiche friulane, 1994.



was published with a Platina facsimile and without.


Without is availabe in Harvard Univ. Library and Yale

Univ. Library.


Maestro Martino has also been translated into Spanish

in 1997/1998, in this book:


Cruz Cruz, Juan.

  La cocina mediterranea en el inicio del Renacimiento

/ Juan Cruz Cruz.  Huesca [Spain] : La Val de Onsera,

1997 [1998]. 415 p. ISBN 8488518390


This contains a translation of Maestro Martino and of

Roberto de Nola, 15th cent. "Libro de guisados,

manjares y potajes" [1529] in Spanish.


Only Library of Congress has this book.


Roberto de Nola also wrote a book called "Libro de

cozina" in 1525.


Roberto de Nola's various books can be found in UC

Berkeley, UC Davis, Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, U.

of Penn. U. of Iowa, U. of Minnesota, and several

other university libraries.


> It seems to me that Maestro Martino plays not a very important role in

> reenactment activities, while Platina, who heavily relied on Martino, is

> mentioned more often, and while Maitre Chiquart, who seems to be of the

> same calibre as Martino, is sort of a hero of 15th century cuisine. Is

> it due to the (lack of) English translation(s) we have?


I think that is exactly it.  We cannot use, study or

quote that which we cannot read.


> Thomas

> PS.: Is the Perry-translation of the Almohade-cookbook online?>


No. Not yet.





Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 13:01:37 -0400

From: Ann & Les Shelton <sheltons at conterra.com>

Subject: SC - Martino citations


I'm making my way through Mary Ella Milham's 1998 translation/critical

edition of Platina's De Honesta Voluptate and she includes several

citations for Martino, although they're probably not easily accessible:


Milham, "Martino and His De re coquinaria," Medieval Food and Drink, The

Center for Medieval and Early Renaissance Studies, vol. 21 (Binghampton,

NY, 1995), 62-66.


Bruno Laurioux, "I libri di cucina italiani alla fine del medioevo: un

nouvo bilancio," Archivio storico italiano 154 (1996): 45-54.


Aldo Bertoluzza, Libra di Cucina del Maestro Martino de Rossi.


Claudio Benporat, "Il recettario di Martino de Rubeis nel contesto della

cucina rinascimentale italiana," Appunti di gastronomia 13 (Feb. 1994):

5-14 and "Maestro Martino e i soui ricettari," Appunti di gastronomia 14

(June 1994): 5-13.


Milham, "Platina and Marino's Libro de arte coquinaria," Acta Conventus

Neo-Latini Hafniensis:  Proceedings of the Eigth International Congress

of Neo-Latin Studies, edited by Ann Moss, Philip Dust, Paul Gerhard

Schmidt, Jacques Chomarat, and Francesco Tateo; general editor, Rhonda

Schnur, MRTS, vol 120, Binghampton NY, 1994: 669-673.


Emilio Faccioli, L'Arte della cucina, 2 vols, Milan 1966. Vol 1:

Martino, 115-204.


Milham, "The Manuscripts of Platina's De Honesta Voluptate and of its

source, Martino," Scriptorium 26 (1972): 127-129.


E. Montorfano, Libro de arte coquinaria, Maestro Martino da Coma (Trent,



Joseph Vehling, "Martino and Platina: Exponents of Renaissance Cookery,"

Hotel Bulletin and Nation's Chefs (October 1932): 192-195.


In addition to the Libro de arte coquinaria, she notes the other

manuscripts of Martino are MS. Washington: LC Med. MS. 153; MS Vatican

Urb. lat. 1203; MS. Milan: formerly Chiesa Coll.  I have no idea what

any of this means, but I'm sure someone out there can explain it.  She

says that the recently discovered 4th manuscript at Riva del Garda

proves that his name was Martino de Rossi, and he was employed by the

Dukes of Milan before he became chef to Cardinal Tresvisan.


John le Burguillun

Barony of Nottinghill Coill




Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:59:56 +1000

From: "HICKS, MELISSA" <HICKS_M at casa.gov.au>

Subject: SC - Food and Feast in Tudor England - Book Review


Sim, Alison (1997) Food and Feast in Tudor England, Sutton Publishing: Great

Britain.  ISBN: 0-7509-1476-9


Chapter Headings:

Intro: Food and Society in 16th C

Kitchens & Kitchen Equipment

Staffing and Provisioning in the Kitchen

Beer and Brewing


Health and Diet


Table Manners

Feasts, Entertainment and Luxury Food



This book gives an OVERVIEW if foodways in Tudor England. It contains no

recipes, but the bibliography and illustrations (and the few photographs of

extant kitchenware) makes up for it.


Overall I was disappointed with the book.  Sim has a tendency to make

sweeping statements and over-generalisations.  She uses extensive footnotes,

but these are only referring to the well-known primary sources many of us

already know and use.  In some cases she draws information from other

secondary sources such as Banquetting Stuffe.  She doesn't seem to do much

analysis on the information she has.


An example taken at random, umm p154, 3rd para:


Originally marmalade was made from quinces, and was imported from Portugal.

The name comes from the Portuguese word for 'quince', which is 'marmelo'.

The marmalade was boiled for longer than our version, so that it was fairly

solid, then it was dried in the sun.  It was eaten as chunks.


The footnote for that paragraph was: "The Evolution of the Banquet Course"

in Banquetting Stuffe p 22-5.



If you are complete beginner in this area then this is an excellent book.

The bibliography is very extensive and although I do not like the way she

has written the text, it does provide a wide-ranging overview.  It is a good

starting point.


If you are moderately experienced in renaissance cooking, then don't bother.

You would already have most of relevant primary sources (such as those

Master A mentioned in a previous post) and can do this level of analysis



If you want info on Banquets, spend your money on "Banquetting Stuffe"

instead.  It goes into a lot more analysis and provides recipes.


IF anyone has a differing view, please advise - I would love to see a

differing viewpoint.






Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 21:27:50 -0000From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>Subject: Re: Subject: SC - Something other than Hungarian and beets.Gunthar wrote:>That would be wonderful since I don't have anything for Portuguese>or Dutch to work with.You said Danish in your earlier post - is it Dutch or Danish recipes you arelooking for? If it is the latter, there is the Danish Koge Bog from 1616which I have. Ięve also just got a new and very interesting Danish book -Middelaldermad by Bi Skaarup and Henrik Jacobsen - with 99 recipes fromvarious sources, both originals and modern interpretations of the recipes.About half are Danish, the rest are German, English, and one each French andDutch.Nanna


Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:11:46 -0000From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>Subject: Re: SC - Nanna's Danish CookbookHuette wrote:>Is this book you mention recently published?  What>language is it written in?  Could you give the>publisher and ISBN number for this book, if it is a>recent publication?It is in Danish, with recipes in original languages, published by Gyldendalin 1999 - the ISBN is 97-00-37304-4. It has recipes from the followingsources: The Harpestreng manuscript (Danish version); the 1616 Danish KogeBog; a cookbook in Danish by Anna Weckerin, published in 1648 (probably atranslation of the German book); Forme of Cury; and one or two recipes fromeach of the following sources: Das buch von guter speise; Koch undKellermeisterey; Kookboek (Dutch, 1510); Pleyn Delit; To the Kingęs Taste;An Ordinance of Pottage; Taillevent; and one previously unpublished Danishrecipe dating from before 1552.All recipes have been worked out/redacted from originals by the authors(both are archaelogists and gastronomes); I compared those taken from PleynDelit and they are not translations of Hieattęs work or anything like that.BTW, I missed some of the recent discussion on beets/beetrots and havedeleted some of the posts so Ięm not really sure what the issue was but ifanyone is interested, there is a recipe for pickled beetroots in the DanishKoge Bog.Nanna


Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:56:43 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Liber Cure Cocorum: I.L.L. Follies of 1999 (long)




I looked up Liber Cure Cocorum on RLIN and found that

these libraries have copies of the reprint:


Columbia / Butler (NY)

Cornell (NY) (has 2 copies, which is why they loaned you one)

Folger Library, Washington DC

Northwestern Univ. (IL)

Harvard Univ. (MA)

Univ. of Rochester (NY)


and the British Museum Library has a microfilmed copy.


It might have been easier to get the British Museum to

print off the pages from their microfilmed copy.


As for the Furnivall, this is the most recent edition:


Furnivall, Frederick James, 1825-1910, ed.

  Early English meals and manners: John Russell's Boke

of nurture, Wynkyn de    Worde's Boke of keruynge, The

boke of curtasye, R. Weste's Booke of demeanor,

Seager's Schoole of vertue, The babees book,

Aristotle's A B C, Urbanitatis, Stans puer ad mensam,

The lytille childrenes lytil boke, For to serve a

lord,  Old Symon, The birched school-boy, &c. With

some forewords on education in early England. Edited

by Frederick J. Furnivall. London, N. TrŹubner, 1868.

  Detroit, Singing Tree Press, 1969.

    c, 388, xvi p. illus. 22 cm.


There seem to be four different editions available:

1868, 1898, 1931 and 1969.


You can find these in these libraries:


Rutgers (NJ)

Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara.

Stanford (CA)

Berkeley (CA) Public Library

Folgers Library, Washington DC (Several copies)

Univ. of Iowa

Harvard Univ. (MA)(Several copies)

Dartmouth (NH)

Cornell (several copies)

Univ. of Rochester (NY)

New York Univ. (Several copies)

SUNY (Buffalo)

Univ. of Calif., Berkeley (Several copies)

Univ. of Minn., St. Paul

Univ. of Minn., Minneapolis

Univ. of Mich. (Several copies)

Univ. of Penn.

Columbia Univ.

Huntington Library (San Marino, CA)

Pierpont Morgan Library (NY)

Florida State Univ.

Getty Center (Malibu, CA)

Univ. of Calif., Davis

Temple Univ. (PA)

Univ. of Chicago

Brigham Young Univ.


Anyway, if you ever need a book looked up and where to

find it, I will be only too happy to do so for you.





Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:04:45 -0500 (EST)

From: alysk at ix.netcom.com

Subject: SC - Re: Liber Cure Cocorum


Greetings.  I missed the beginning of this thread, but I have a copy in my house

in a book dating from 1864, _Philological Society's Transactions_.  Said book also contains "The Pricke of Conscience",a Northumbrian poem by Richard Rolle, and "Castel Off Loue" (Chasteau d'Amour), an early English translation by Robert Gresseteste, Bishop of London. Found the book (at Pennsic, IIRC) for $35.


What recipe were you looking for?  Also, the introduction to this says that it is printed from a "transcript of the Sloan MS 1986, where it occurs as an appendix to the 'Boke of Curtasye'.  It is written in a Northern dialect of the IVth century, probably not much earlier than the time of Henry VI."


Alys Katharine



Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 15:27:51 -0500 (EST)

From: alysk at ix.netcom.com

Subject: SC - Re: Liber Cure Cocorum


I own a copy of _Liber Cure Cocorum_.  It is in the Philological Society's Early English Volume, 1862-4 and was printed in London in 1865.  Found it (IIRC) at Pennsic at either Esmeralda's books or the Armoury.  Cost all of $35.


The "Liber" that I have was "copied and edited from the Sloan MS. 1986 by Richar Morris. It is mentioned that it dates from around 1440 and is written in a Northern dialect.  The preface written by Morris includes Northumbrian dialect words and says "From internal evidence it would seem that the author of this poem was a native of North-West Lancashire..."


Alys Katharine



Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:28:11 -0500

From: Angie Malone <alm4 at cornell.edu>

Subject: Re: SC - Liber Cure Cocorum: I.L.L. Follies of 1999


Here's what the Cornell Library catalog says about the book:


     TITLE: Liber cure cocorum. Copied and edited from the Sloane ms. 1986


        NOTES:   A curious poem on cookery "now first printed from a transcript

                   of the Sloane ms. 1986, where it occurs as an appendix to

                   the 'Boke of curtasye'. It is written in a northern dialect

                   of the XVth century."--Pref.

                 "Supplement to the Transactions of the London Philological

                   Society for 1862"--Brit. Mus. Catalogue.





Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:39:00 -0500

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Liber Cure Cocorum: I.L.L. Follies of 1999 (long)


And it came to pass on 5 Nov 99,, that Philip & Susan Troy wrote:

> Valoise Armstrong wrote:

> > Adamantius,

> > You're looking for The Boke of Nuture? I'm pretty sure the Early English

> > Text Society version has been reproduced on ultrafiche. It should

> > probably be listed in OCLC, I don't know if it's in RLIN.


> Most likely. I really haven't investigated it yet, it's just something

> I'll get to the next time I have time for this kind of thing.


I have used the following book from the Early English Text Society.  It is

at the Alexander Library at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, NJ.  IT

contains several period books of courtesy.


Personal author: Furnivall, Frederick James, 1825-1910, ed.

Title: Early English meals and manners:

Publication info: London, N. Trübner & co., 1868.

Physical descrip: 4 p. l., c p., 3 l., 388 (i. e. 390) p. cvi pl. 28 x 22 cm.


On www.bookfinder.com, I found a reprint for sale:


Furnivall, F.J., ed.: The Babees Book. Early English Meals and

Manners. ;  Oxford EETS, 1997. Facsimile, New, 674, Facsimile of

1868 edition. Includes  Modus Cenandi, Bokes of Nurture of Rhodes and

Russell, Boke of Kervinge, Boke of Curtasy, Hardcover, 15th century

table manners etiquette carving courtesy England British Medieval

Acanthus Books USD72.00


It shouldn't be too hard to get a copy via ILL, from Rutgers or elsewhere.

I don't have direct access to OCLC, but maybe someone else can

check it for you.


Brighid (in librarian mode)


Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)



Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 19:36:28 -0800

From: Lilinah biti-Anat <lilinah at grin.net>

Subject: SC - Stere Htt Well


Another question, as i'm out on the web looking for books. I know

this book has been mentioned here. I found what appear to be two

editions. Does anyone know if the text is the same or are these two

significantly different versions?


(1) Samuel Pepys. "Stere Htt Well - Medieval Recipes and Remedies

from Samuel Pepys's Library." Publisher: Cambridge: 1972.


Describes as: "Facsimile edition of a medieval recipe and remedie

book in the library of Samuel Pepys. English facing translation and

introduction by... Delia Smith."


(2) Hodgett, Gerald A.J. "Stere Htt Well - A book of medieval

refinements, recipes and remedies from a manuscript in Samuel Pepys's

library." Publisher: Mary Martin Books, Adelaide/(N.D.)


Describes as: " Black and red facsimiles of recipes, along with

Hodgett's modern English versions. With an introduction by Delia



Again, my thanks for any elucidation,




Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 23:45:35 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - The Pantropheon


Lilinah biti-Anat wrote:

> I was tooling around on line and found this title:

> The Pantropheon or a History of Food and Its Preparation in Ancient

> Times by Alexis Soyer


> I am assuming it covers cuisine a bit before the usual SCA time.


> Anyone here familiar with it?




It contains about every pitfall bad Victorian scholarship can scare up.

An interesting read, but it's kind of like a cross between the Larousse

Gastronomique's articles on Asian cookery and the English translation of

Vehling's Apicius. It ridiculously presupposes a French supremacy as the

wellspring of all creativity in matters culinary, and appears to have a

fair amount of outright fantasy as the basis for some of the material. A

complete, entire, pan-global culinary timeline as seen through the eyes

of someone who comprehends nothing but the cooking of 19th-century

France. Soyer definitely did understand that, but then he _also_ felt

that the main reason there were so many poor, starving people in

late-19th-century Europe was that too few of these poor devils

understood how to make a good, cheap soup. To that end he wrote a famous

pamphlet designed to end world hunger through soup. He was kind of a nut.


A very interesting literary document, though, and I always enjoyed

reading it. I think, though, that it's not a very good tool for learning

about culinary history. Others' mileage may vary.





Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:15:29 -0800

From: Lilinah biti-Anat <lilinah at grin.net>

Subject: SC - New Book: Art, Culture and Cuisine


I got permission from the woman who wrote this to forward it hear.

She said she'd be interested in hearing folks' opinions. FYI, i am

NOT on any Middle lists. Her post was forwarded to another list i'm

on, but i thought folks here might be interested.




- ------- Forward -------


Subject: [Mid] Interesting new book!

To: sca-middle at midrealm.org (Middlebridge)

From:  Sally Burnell <sburnell at acorn.net>

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 11:39:54 EST


We just got in a very interesting book here at the library called "Art,

Culture and Cuisine: Ancient and Medieval Gastronomy" by Phyllis Pray

Bober, ISBN 0226062538, University of Chicago Press, 1999, $50.00. It

not only has recipes but is filled with quite interesting gastronomic

information, for all you cooking types, as well as a lot of other

fascinating stuff about art history and period culture. You might wish

to take a look at this if you are into any of these areas. I cannot speak

for the accuracy of the information presented, since I am not a cooking

person, but still, take a look at it anyway. Perhaps someone out there

with greater expertise might be able to speak on whether this is a good

book or no? Anyone?



Lady Saradwen Ariandalen

Marche of Gwyntarian

(Akron/Kent, OH)--



Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:33:10 -0700 (MST)

From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Wanted: opinions on these 2 cookbooks


On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Stefan li Rous wrote:

> Another notable new title just given a wonderful review on National Public

> Radio...

> A Mediterranean Feast

> by Clifford A. Wright


> The story of the Birth of the Celebrated Cuisines of the Mediterranean,

> from the Merchants of Venice to the Barbary Corsairs, with more than 500

> recipes. Full of history and culinary facts, this is a must for the person

> who loves food history.

> R105            $24.50


this is a wonderful culinary history book.  i bought it a few weeks ago

from amazon for a lot more than $24.50.  but be careful. the author says

right up front, this is a book of mediterranean culinary history with

- -modern- recipes.  all of the recipes are modern, mediterranean fare.

buy it for the illustrations and the commentary, but don't try to make out

that the recipes are period.





Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 22:16:00 -0600

From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com>

Subject: SC - Period Cookbook


I just found this cookbook for sale for those

who can afford it.  The rest of us will just

have to salivate:



Pegge, Samuel J. Nichols


Price:  $1,250.00

Format: Hardcover - First Edition

Publisher: London 1785

Associated Dealer: Food Words    Portland, OR

Condition: 2nd ed 188 pp VG First printed ed of the

1390 manuscript with notes by Pegge in the 18th cen.

Full leather boards, Front board detached, but text

tight and clean. Superb copy of this significantly

important early text. A foundation of English cooking.

The 2nd ed, about which there is some confusion,

came shortly after the orig pub date of 1780.


Is this currently in print and available at a more

affordable price?





Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 22:30:40 -0800

From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>

Subject: Re: SC - Period Cookbook+ temporary bye-bye





> Is this currently in print and available at a more

> affordable price?


Well, _Forme of Cury_ is usually grouped in the larger document we call

_Curye on Inglyshe_. I don't know about in-print-ness, but it is usually

obtainable from someone who carries Early English Text Society stuff.

The one they have at UO is slim, brown, and barely used. Like most EETS,

there's nifty glosses and a glossary in back. I made a copy when I was

working on a class project years ago, and I have it in a three-ring

binder, which is quite useful in the kitchen!


I don't know of _Forme of Cury_ published on its own- it is a small text

and would hardly make a pamphlet.





Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 01:42:48 EST

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Period Cookbook


ringofkings at mindspring.com writes:

<< Is this currently in print and available at a more

affordable price? >>


Yes, Cariadocs Collection includes this manuscript as well as many others for

a mere pittance (e.g. less than 24 dollars for a couple of dozen manuscripts)

compared to the outrageously high price quoted in you post for a mere 200

year old REPRINT of a period manuscript./ Give me a break! :-0





Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:23:20 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Period Cookbook



> Pegge, Samuel J. Nichols


> Is this currently in print and available at a more

> affordable price?


> Akim


Cindy Renfrow has scanned the Pegge version of the Forme of Cury.  It is

webbed on Greg Lindahl's site at:







Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:36:44 -0500 (EST)

From: cclark at vicon.net

Subject: RE: SC - Period Cookbook


Bear wrote:

>Cindy Renfrow has scanned the Pegge version of the Forme of Cury. ...


And there's a new edition in _Curye on Inglysch_ by Hieatt and Butler, based

on a comparison of Pegge's transcription and all of the known period FoC

manuscripts, including versions that Pegge never saw.


Alex Clark/Henry of Maldon



Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 10:16:29 -0800

From: Valoise <varmstro at zipcon.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Hi


For Joachim Von Schwabia:


Welcome to the list. Sorry for the belated greeting - I'm a few days

behind in getting to the digests. If your persona is late period,

there is a cookbook from Swabia (from Augsburg) available on the web.

Das Kochbuch der Sabina Welserin (1553) is at



The translation is mine. There are no redactions but from your message

I got the idea you would definitely like the challenge of working out

your own recipes.





Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 01:03:52 +0100

From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de>

Subject: SC - information access / Hungarian cuisine


"Of course, many other people are able to use the collection for various

research projects." This is quoted from an article by Louis Szathmary

about "The Szathmary Culinary Archives", a collection of about 18.000

cookbooks and related culinary material. If I understood correctly, part

of this collection was donated to the University of Iowa and is now part

of their special collections; the other part seems to be housed "above

my restaurant (The Bakery) in Chicago" (I may have got that wrong).


The Szathmary collection seems to be especially strong in Hungarian

cookbooks ("... contains just about every cookbook ever printed in

Hungary"). Szathmary says that Marx Rumpolt (the author of the famous

'Ein new Kochbuch', 1581) is an Hungarian. I didn't recall that, so I

reread Rumpolt's preface. Rumpolt says, that he was "an vieler Herrn

Höfen" and that he learned about the cuisines of "Jtalien/ Niderlanden/

Reussen/ Preussen/ Polen/ Vngern/ Böhem/ Osterreich vnd Teutschlandt".

And, yes, he says that he is "ein geborner Vnger", who had to leave the

land when he was young because of the Turkish invasion in that time.


Thus, it seems to me that we can take Rumpolt's recipes 'in an Hungarian

style' to be somewhat more close to Hungarian cuisine than the Hungarian

style recipes of other collections.


Louis Szathmary mentions another interesting document in his collection:

"a leather-covered document, handwritten on vellum in Hungary circa



Looking from Europe, it seems that Chicago has at least two good

culinary collections to visit (the other one being the John Crerar

Library). If I ever drop by there ...


Here is the URL of the four pages portrait of "The Szathmary Culinary






(I am still collecting 'Hungarian recipes from non-Hungarian sources' to

put on the web sometimes in the new year; contributions are welcome.)



Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:58:47 +0100

From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de>

Subject: SC - book & bibliography


I want to share good news with you. Trude Ehlert just told me, that a

new facsimile edition of 15th century German cookery manuscripts will be

out _soon_:


- -- Ehlert, T. (ed.): MŁnchner Kochbuchhandschriften aus dem 15.

Jahrhundert. In Zusammenarbeit mit G. Brembs u.a. DonauwŲrth/ Frankfurt

a.M. (Auer/ Tupperware) 1999.


As soon as I have seen the book myself I will give you some more



I updated my long and unsystematic bibliography on food and wine to

include this title; this bibliography is now on my Marburg site (the

Giessen site will expire soon):



   (280K; 1405 titles; mainly, but not only 1350-1800;

    NO SYSTEMATIC ORDER up to now; will try to improve this)





Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:35:08 -0500

From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>

Subject: Re:  SC - 16th Century Recipes


Aldyth at aol.com wrote:

>Greetings all.  Does anyone have ideas of "late" period sources for recipes?

>Our Gracious Queen would like 16th century recipes at her A&S.  It does not

>appear to be an issue as to the type of cuisine, or location, just 16th



While I am sure others far more knowledgeable that I can make much better

suggestions this is what I have in my library which I suggest might both fit

the bill and be generally available with modest effort:


The Sensible Cook; Dutch Foodways in the Old and New World, Translated and

Edited by Peter G. Rose ISBN 0-8156-0241-3


Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book; Elizabethan Country House Cooking, Hilary

Spurling, ISBN 0-670-81592-6


Martha Washington's Book of Cookery, Edited and annotated by Karen Hess

(No this is not colonial American cookery book but a copy of two earlier

English family books with additional out of period recipes included.


Renaissance Recipes, by Gillian Riley ISBN 1-56640-577-7


Pepys at Table; Seventeenth century recipes for the modern cook.

Christopher Driver and Michelle Berriedale-Johnson  ISBN 0-520-05386-9


All of the above span out of the 16th and into the 17th century, some more

than others. They all have the advantage of being generally available and if

used judiciously they should give a good spread, English, Dutch and Italian...


Daniel Raoul le Vascon de Navarre' called by many people many things but by

the English, Leadenpenny.



Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 07:46:33 EST

From: WOLFMOMSCA at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - 16th Century Recipes


Greetings, Aldyth:


16th century cookbooks:


Thomas Dawson,  The Good Huswifes Jewell... newly set forth with additions,



Epulario, or the Italian Banquet, English translation in 1598 from original

Rosselli published in Italy in 1516


The Good Huswives Handmaid for Cookerie, 1588


The Good Hous-wives Treasurie, 1588


John Partridge,  The Treasurie of Commodious Conceites, 1584


A Proper Newe Booke of Cokerye, 1560


The Second Part of the Good Hus-wives Jewell, 1597


A Booke of Cookry Very Necessary for All Such as Delight Therein, Gathered by

A. W., 1584





Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 06:23:38 -0800

From: Valoise <varmstro at zipcon.net>

Subject: Re: SC - 16th Century Recipes


Aldyth wrote:

> Greetings all.  Does anyone have ideas of "late" period sources for recipes?

> Our Gracious Queen would like 16th century recipes at her A&S.  It does not

> appear to be an issue as to the type of cuisine, or location, just 16th

> century.  Platina and Apicius are just a little early...


There are two German books translated into English and available on

the web.

Das Kochbuch der Sabina Welserin (1553) is entirely translated and at:



Parts of Ein New Kochbuch by Marx Rumpolt (1581) are at:






Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:39:48 EST

From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Seven Centuries of English Cooking


Aldyth at aol.com writes:

<< Is anyone familiar with this book?  >>


Yep.  It's one of the first period cookbooks I got, and you're correct in

your interpretation - she significantly alters both ingredients and cooking

techniques from the originals in nearly all her recipes. She also does not

pay attention to period vs non-period ingredients.  In her version of Longe

Wortes de Pesoun, which she calls something like Green Pea and Onion Soup,

she uses green beans for the "wortes" rather than greens.

At least she gives the originals and sources for nearly all her recipes, so

it is possible to figure out where she's changed things around.  At this

point, I use it primarily for the originals.


Brangwayna Morgan



Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:08:57 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Seven Centuries of English Cooking


Bronwynmgn at aol.com wrote:

> Aldyth at aol.com writes:

> << Is anyone familiar with this book?  >>


> Yep.  It's one of the first period cookbooks I got, and you're correct in

> your interpretation - she significantly alters both ingredients and cooking

> techniques from the originals in nearly all her recipes.  She also does not

> pay attention to period vs non-period ingredients. In her version of Longe

> Wortes de Pesoun, which she calls something like Green Pea and Onion Soup,

> she uses green beans for the "wortes" rather than greens.


She may have been confused about the worts for some reason...it looks as

if she reasoned that the recipe called for mature peas and snap peas in

the shell (they're long, aren't they???), and may have resorted to green

beans for expedience.


> At least she gives the originals and sources for nearly all her recipes, so

> it is possible to figure out where she's changed things around.  At this

> point, I use it primarily for the originals.


Some of her adaptations aren't that bad. I still use her doucette recipe

(entitled, I think, Honey-Saffron Quiche), and occasionally the saffron

bread that she unfortunately fails to attribute. But yes, she has been

known to pull some extreme Cosmans. And where in the works of Andrew

Boorde is there a meatball soup recipe???





Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:14:19 EST

From: RuddR at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Terence Scully book


Angeline writes:

>I just got the new book of Scully's from Amazon.com.


>I had preordered it around Christmas.  I only leafed through it last night

>before going to sleep, but it had a lot of interesting information.


>What do other people think about it?


>1 of "The Neapolitan Recipe Collection : (New York, Pierpont Morgan

>Library, MS Buhler, 19) : A Critical Edition and English Translation"

>  Terence Scully(Editor), Pierpont Morgan Library;

I have just acquired a copy.  It is a large, handsome volume, full of

Scully's intense scholarship, but lacking the traces of whimsy sometimes

found in his other works.  There is a detailed analysis of the late-15th

century manuscript, and full discussion of its relation to other works of the

era, especially to Catalan recipe collections.


The recipes themselves seem to have been compiled by a single individual,

well-versed in the art of cooking, and frequently contain specific

measurements and cooking tips, as well as an occasional witty remark!  It is

divided into "chapters" of general foods, meats, "marvels", stuffings,

sauces, tortes, eggs, Lenten dishes, fritters and fish. There are also seven

banquet menus, of some complexity, some of which are attributed to specific

individuals of note.


Among the recipes are numerous, familiar pasta dishes (just waiting for

tomato sauce to be introduced!), lots of elegant sauces (some of which Scully

thinks may be the invention of the cook responsible for this work), and a

detailed recipe for eggplant, which Scully claims is unique in recipe

collections of the era (at least in non-Arabic sources). There are lots of

"foreign" recipes, including many Catalan and French dishes. I was personally

pleased to find a Lombard sauce (a simple green garlic sauce with vinegar).


I was disappointed that Scully chose not to translate the banquet menus.  

Anyone wishing to recreate one of these feasts, not familiar with this

archaic Italian dialect, will have to spend a lot of time referring to the

very comprehensive glossary.


All in all, a splendid work, and I trust we will be seeing redactions and

adaptations of these recipes coming forth before too long. (I'm considering

making a Papal Torte for Mid-Lent.)


Rudd Rayfield



Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:39:26 -0500

From: Angie Malone <alm4 at cornell.edu>

Subject: Re: SC - Terence Scully book


At 09:14 AM 2/25/00 EST, Rudd Rayfield wrote:

>All in all, a splendid work, and I trust we will be seeing redactions and

>adaptations of these recipes coming forth before too long.  (I'm considering

>making a Papal Torte for Mid-Lent.)


I too thought it was neat, I don't know why but I was awestruck at what I

considered a wealth of information.  I felt like I was unlocking a chest

that was just discovered hidden.


I guess I have just had a rough week, but what I found interesting, after

only leafing through the book is that it talks about most commonly used

spices, methods of cooking, more of the 'how/what they did'.  


It made me feel like I could do feasts closer to the time period then I

could just using a redacted recipe book like Pleyn Delit.





Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 07:34:37 -0800From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net>Subject: SC - hooray! new 15th century cookbook!!Its here! Its here!and at first glance it looks really neat too :)...- --AMThe Neapolitan Recipe Collection : (New York, Pierpont Morgan Library, MSBuhler, 19) : A Critical Edition and English Translation by Terence Scully(Editor), Pierpont Morgan Library Publication date: March 2000 Publisher: Univ of Michigan Pr Binding:Hardcover Subjects: Cookery, Italian; Southern style; Early works to 1800 Click here for more information Our Price: $31.88 | You Save: $10.62 (25%) (Amazon.com)


Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:08:10 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Mediaeval cookbooks to begin with


> I have also found "To the King's Taste", published by the

> Metropolitan Museum of

> Fine Arts to be very helpful, with lots of good recipes.


> Kiri


Sass' "To The King's Taste" and "To The Queens Taste" were both out of print

last time I checked, although they are still on library shelves.  I bought

my copies used for less than $10.


The adaptations of the recipes do not necessarily follow the instructions of

the original, but Sass does provide you with the original recipe and a

translation to modern English for comparison.





Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:55:21 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: RE: SC - Brussels sprouts, Rosenkohl // What is "Tyffan"? // Bohe mian cookbook 1591?


- --- "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> wrote:

> I have some conflicting references (tertiary and quaternary sources at best)

> for brussels sprouts which place them anywhere from the 13th Century to the

> 18th Century.


> The best potential reference I have seen is that brussels sprouts and

> kohlrabi are first mentioned in Rembert Dodoens' (Dodonaeus) "Cruydeboek" of

> 1554.  I have not been able to locate a copy of this work to verify the

> statement.  The original work is in Dutch.


> Bear


It was translated into English in 1578 and called "A

Nievve Herball, or Historie of Plantes"


Lots of libraries have various editions of this in

English, Dutch, and French.


You can find this in these libraries:




Library of Congress

Brigham Young Univ.

Univ. of Minnesota

Univ. of Syracuse

Univ. of Rochester, NY

Univ. of Chicago

Univ. of Calif. Berkeley

Stanford Univ.

Univ. of Iowa


Temple Univ.

Univ. of Pennsylvania

Brown Univ.

Univ. of Michigan

Univ. of Florida

British Library


There is a library in Missouri that has this also, but

they are new to RLIN and are not on my list of RLIN

subscribers yet.


This book also has been translated into Japanese and

is called "Ensai Dodoneusu Somokufu"!





Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 20:00:06 -0400

From: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net>

Subject: SC - Fw: Martino


I asked Thomas Gloning for some insight into the Martino/Platina question,

and this is his response. While we've discussed this matter before, I think

his comments and the references he included will provide us with additional

insights on the matter.





I think the latest question about Martino is the relationship of the

different stages of the Martino corpus and the 'Neapolitan recipe

collection', recently published by Scully:


"That the person whom we call the _cuoco napoletano_ was patently a

professional cook leaves room to surmise that he may have been a

respected master, contemporary or apprentice of Maestro Martino, a

colleague with considerable initiative. Some direct antecedent of his

work may have inspired Martino himself; alternatively the Neapolitan

cook may have enjoyed access to an early draft of his _compagno_'s

masterwork. In any case, the Neapolitan collection sprang from a legacy

at some point before this had given rise to either the _Libro de cosina_

or the _Libro de arte coquinaria_" (Scully p. 21).


I append some titles about Martino (did not see them all up to now).





Benporat, Cl.: Maestro Martino e i suoi ricettari. In: Appunti di

gastronomia 14 (June 1994) 5-13.


Benporat, Cl.: Il recettario di Martino de Rubeis nel contesto della

cucina rinascimentale italiana. In: Appunti di gastronomia 13 (Feb.

1994) 5-14.


Benporat, Cl.: Cucina italiana del quattrocento. Florenz 1996

(Biblioteca dell'Archivum Romanicum 272). -- Contains a transcription of

the Vatican ms. and the Riva del Garda ms. ("with some evidence of haste

and misreadings"; Scully, Neapolitan recipe collection, p.11 n.27).


Bertoluzza, A.: Libro di cucina del Maestro Martino de Rossi. Cucina

tardomedioevale in uso alle corti degli Sforza, dei Visconti e nel

Principato Vescovile di Trento. Trento 1993.


Faccioli, E.: Arte della cucina. Libri di ricette, testi sopra lo

scalco, il trinciante e i vini dal XIV al XIX secolo. Zwei Bšnde.

Mailand 1966.


Laurioux, B.: I libri di cucina italiani alla fine del medioevo: un

nuovo bilancio. In: Archivio Storico Italiano 154 (1996) 45-54.


Martino da Como (Maestro Martino): Libro de Arte Coquinaria. In:

Faccioli, E. (ed.): Arte della cucina. Vol. I. Milano 1966, 115-204.


Martino da Como: Maestro Martino da Como, ĽLibro de Arte Coquinariaę. A

cura di E. Montorfano e con introduzione di E. Travi. Mailand 1990.

[Faksimile und Transkription der Handschrift `Washington, Library of

Congress, De Ricci 153'.]


Martino da Como: Libro de arte coquinaria. Premessa e commenti di P.

Micoli. Udine (Societŗ Filologica Friulana/ Arti Grafiche Friulane)

1994. [Text nach der Ausgabe Faccioli 1966.]


Milham, M.E.: The manuscripts of Platina ĽDe honesta voluptateę and its

source, Martino. In: Scriptorium 26 (1972) 127-129.


Milham, M.E.: Platina and Martino's Libro de arte coquinaria. In: Acta

Conventus Neo-Latini Hafniensis. Ed. by. A. Moss et al., general editor:

Rh. Schnur. Binghampton, NY 1994, 669-673 (MRTS 120).


Milham, M.E.: Martino and his De re coquinaria. In: Medieval food and

drink. The Center for Medieval and Early Renaissance Studies, vol. 21.

Binghampton, NY 1995, 62-66.


Platina: On right pleasure and good health. A critical edition and

translation of ĽDe honesta voluptate et valetudineę by M.E. Milham.

Tempe, Arizona 1998 (Medieval & Renaissance Texts & Studies 168).


Scully, T. (ed.): Cuoco Napoletano. The Neapolitan recipe collection

(New York, Pierpont Morgan Library, MS BŁhler, 19). A critical edition

and English translation. Initially with the collaboration of R. Grewe.

Ann Arbor (Univ. of Michigan Press) 2000.


Vehling, J.D.: Martino and Platina, exponents of Renaissance cookery.

In: Hotel Bulletin and Nation's Chefs (October 1932) 192-195.



Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:39:55 -0400

From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>

Subject: SC - Emeril on medieval cooking, Regards Dunton's book


>The potage recipe came from the Mallinkrodt translation of Platina; the

>bread recipes came from Black's The Medieval Cookbook; and the "Maid of

>Honor cakes" came from Dutton's Good Fare and Cheers of Old England.


>know this book???)


Got a copy of Dunton's, it is definitely the lightest reference of the

three.  No bibliography, very little in the way of reference to anything at

all in period, most of the history mentioned is quite clearly post period.

The Maids of Honour recipe is attributed in a footnote to "Andre L. Simon,

Guide to Good Food and Wines"


The full reference for the book is "The Good Fare and Cheer of Old England"

Joan Parry Dutton, Reynal & Company, New York, 1960. I don't remember when

or where I got it but a notation in the fly leaf has it marked down from 39

to 25 cents.


Daniel Raoul



Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:07:28 -0600

From: "UnruhBays, Melanie A" <UnruhBays.Melanie.A at broadband.att.com>

Subject: RE: SC - help with Elizabethan feasts plans Requested


I *highly* recommend BANQUETING STUFF. It's been my primary (not a "Primary"

source)source for the two Elizabethan banquets that I've done. When it comes

to decorating food (and decorative food) this is a wonderful book.


Now some caveats - it's expensive ($31 US, if I remember correctly for a

rather small book), the dry measures are in ounces which really threw Rivka

and me for a loop in the wafer recipe (I really *must* get that kitchen

scale), and the recipes and practices cross over *way* in to the late 17th

and 18th centuries. Just be careful and read everything carefully.


On the other hand, it's a great resource not only for the recipes, but for

the entire practice of banqueting in the very late part of our period. It

also relates some of the most interesting social background surrounding the

banqueting practice, and more background on the profusion of cookbooks that

appeared in the late 1500s and early 1600s.


Now I have to get THE APPETITE AND THE EYE.... Thanks, Stefan!





Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:27:09 +0200

From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>

Subject: SC - Catalan Cooking?


As far as I am aware, from the 6 or 7 known catalan sources on cooking

and eating up to 1520, none is translated into English up to now (Tom

McDonald/Master Thomas Longshanks is working on a translation of the

Libre de Sent Sovi).


BUT you could try one thing: Terence Scully gives around 30 Catalan

recipes from the _De apereylar_, from the _Libre de Sent Sovi_ and from

Mestre Robert. These recipes have close relatives in the Neap0litan*

Recipe collection, that Scully has edited and translated into English.

Thus, the translation of the Italian recipe could be a rough help to

understand the Catalan parallel recipe (see Scully p. 249ss.).


In addition you might try these books:

- -- Andrews, C.: Catalan cuisine. Europe's great culinary secret. New

York 1988.

- -- Santich, B.: L'Influence italienne sur l'ťvolution de la cuisine

mťdiťvale catalane. In: Manger et Boire au Moyen Age. Vol. 2. Paris

1984, 131-140.

- -- Thibaut-Comelade, E.: La table mťdiťvale des Catalans. (Les Presses

de Languedoc) 1995.


More books and articles are at:







Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 16:24:53 -0400

From: Ann & Les Shelton <sheltons at conterra.com>

Subject: SC - Cookbook Advice {long}


I will be sliding over the hill to age 40 in 2 weeks {proof you can grow

old without growing up}.  Since there's really nothing I desperately

need, I've decided to request additions to my library of cookbooks.

After digging around on a few lists, I've identified the following

potential candidates.  Any comments the list may have on any of these

would be appreciated {I couldn't find any comments in the Florilegium}:

John le Burguillun



1)  Mennell, Stephen.  "All Manners of Food:  Eating and Taste in

England and France from the Middle Ages to the Present,"  $15.16, ISBN

No. 02520664909.  Couldn't tell from the description how much related to

our time period of interest.

2)  Dembinska, Maria.  "Food and Drink in Medieval Poland:

Rediscovering a Cuisine of the Past," $20.97, ISBN No. 0812232240.

Looked interesting, not too expensive, an area of Europe I don't have

any information on currently.  Is this based on period documentation or

just on "traditional" folk recipes?

3)  Baber, Phillus Pray.  "Art, Culture and Cuisine: Ancient and

Medieval Gastronomy," $50.00, ISBN No. 0226062538.   Somewhat pricey,

don't know how much of it is foodstuffs versus pretty pictures versus

culture, got great on-line reviews {for what little that's worth!}.

4)  Wright, Clifford.  "A Mediterranean Feast:  The Story of the Birth

of the Celebrated Cuisines of the Mediterranean from the Merchants of

Venice to the Barbary Corsairs, with more than 500 recipes."  $24.50,

ISBN No. 0688153054.  A cook I respect swears by Clifford Wright, but

this book got a blistering review, to wit "A pretentious and extremely

poorly organized book which purports to be both history and a cook

book.  The history sections are, in many instances, superficial and/or

pure speculation and the recipes are mostly regurgitations of recipes in

other (and better) cook books."  I've developed an interest in this

region {Platina, Santich, etc.} and this book appeals to me, but this is

a pretty rough review to overcome.

5)  Scully, Terence.  "The Neopolitan Recipe Collection: (New York,

Pierpoint Morgan Library, MS Buhler 19): A Critical Edition and English

Translation," $47.50, ISBN No. 0472109723.  My first choice; a little

expensive, but Scully's fairly reliable.  I have library access to

"Early French Cookery" and "Art of Cookery in the Middle Ages," so I've

never bothered to buy either, although they're certainly other options.

6)  Dalby, Andrew and Sally Granger.  "The Classical Cookbook," $17.47,

ISBN No. 0892363940.  Covers ancient cuisine {Rome, Greece, etc}; don't

know anything about these authors, so it could be great or it could be

another "Fabulous Feasts."


Just FYI: all the prices listed came from amazon.com.  You can probably

find better prices elsewhere.



Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 14:38:59 -0500

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: RE: SC - Question Re Platina, was Thanks re Florence


Lorix and Bear were discussing the relations among Platina's

cookbook, Martino's cookbook and Epulario, and Bear wrote:


>There are four known existing manuscripts of Martino, so it is possible that

>one could have been found in Florence at the appropriate time.  While I

can't comment on whether the recipes in the Epulario are taken from Martino...


I've seen a late period English translation of Epulario--Falconwood

Press published an edition that was being sold at Pennsic a few years

ago. There were not just recipes, but sequences of recipes that were

the same across all three cookbooks. There was even one typo/scribal

error that was the same across all three: a place where there are a

set of torta (pie) recipes with quantities given, with an ounce of

ginger in one and then a pound (!) of ginger in the next one, which

has got to be a mistake.


Elizabeth/Betty Cook



Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 00:27:55 EDT

From: allilyn at juno.com

Subject: Re: SC - Scully's Viandier


I asked Amanda if the Scully she could get me was substantially different

than the Bennet version in Cariadoc's volume, or the Prescott

translation, both of which I have.


>>As for the Bennet and Prescott translations of Viandier, I don't know how

different these are than Scully, but I do have Cariadoc's volumes so may

be able to compare the Bennet with Scully. If you have ever seen anything

else by Scully, you know his work is full of footnotes and incidental

information, a very thorough investigation of the subject at hand. Scully

transcribed the text of, IIRC, four Viandier manuscripts, and compares

them line by line. They are in French but with his footnoted comments in

English. Then in another separate section he provides an English

translation of one of the manuscripts.


Whether the Bennet, Prescott and Scully translations are substantially

different might be a good question to ask on SCA-cooks.<<


So, I'm asking--those of you who have seen all the books, do I need to

buy Scully's book, too?  I do love to read his notes and comments, but my

book expense is growing pretty high.



Allison,     allilyn at juno.com



Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 22:58:30 -0000

From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>

Subject: Re: SC - Re: Help-Scottish recipes


Cariadoc wrote:

>By the late sixteenth century there are printed recipe collections in

>England, so it is possible there is evidence of one of them being

>known in Scotland. But it sounds like a hard problem, given how

>narrow the window is between the earliest English printed cookbooks

>(anyone know exactly when that is? I don't) and the end of our period.


I suppose that depends on how you define a cookbook. According to The Oxford

Companion to Food (which devotes almost 2 pages to pre-1700 English

cookbooks), the first printed book relating to cookery is probably a Noble

Boke of Cokery (1500) followed by The Book of Kervynge (1508); however A

Proper Newe Booke of Cookerye (1575 or earlier) is probably the first book

that focuses on cookery itself, and was closely followed by several others.


The earliest printed Scottish cookbook was written by a Mrs McClintock and

pbulished in 1736. F. Marian McNeill’s The Scots Kitchen is probably the

best source for old and traditional Scottish recipes, with lofts of history

thrown in.  (Which reminds me - Ūt has been on my "must have" list for quite

some time, so now I’m off to search for a copy of the original edition.)





Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 23:55:28 +0200

From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>

Subject: SC - Earliest cookbooks (was: Help: Scottisch ...)


<< The earliest European manuscript cookbook, so far as I know, is

Apicius, which predates Platina, believed to be the first printed

cookbook, by a thousand years or so. >> (David/Cariadoc)


There is some dispute as to whether the work of Platina or the

"KŁchenmeisterei" is the "first printed cookbook". To be sure, it is

only a matter or words ("what are the conditions for calling something a

cookbook?"). Personally, I don't care much about priority, but the

question has some consequence for Apicius ...


The question is, whether or not the work of Platina is a cookbook. Those

of you who have read or flipped through the book, would perhaps be

inclined to say that it is a dietetic work that _contains_ a very large

section with cookery recipes (that come from Martino) together with

passages on other dietetic matters (nature of food stuffs without

recipes, notes on sexuality, wake and sleep, exercise, etc.).


In case [A] you are inclined to call this dietetic work with a large

section of cookery recipes a cookbook, the first printed cookbook is

indeed the work of Platina, otherwise [B] it would be the

"KŁchenmeisterei" (1485).


In case you prefer option [A] the first European manuscript cookbook

would not be Apicius, but could be something like Cato's 'De agri

cultura': an agricultural treatise that _contains_ a section with

cookery recipes.



(The earliest cookery recipes, I know of, are those in the Yale

Babylonian collection, ca. 1700 B.C.; edited by Jean Bottťro).



Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 15:59:56 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: SC - Catalan cookbook (was honey strawberry spread)


And it came to pass on 17 Jun 00,, that Serian wrote:

> name of book please?

> Serian


"Libre de totes maneres de confits".  It's a 14th century Catalan

manuscript, containing 33 recipes for preserves and candies.  It has not

been published in book form.  The text was reprinted in a 1947 issue of

a Spanish journal.  The recipes are in 14th century Catalan; the notes

and glossary are in modern Spanish.  I have a photocopy. I can read it

well enough to understand and paraphrase, but not to really translate.


Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)



Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:18:26 -0400

From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Roman recipes


> Leaving Apicius for the moment I'm thinking of picking up

> "A Taste of Ancient Rome" by Giacosa as translated by

> Herklotz. I've heard good things about this and was thinking

> of adding it to my personal library.


> Gunthar


I not only have read it, but used it to create part of a feast I did some years

ago.  It contains recipes not only by Apicius, but also by others, like Cato.

The recipes, if I recall correctly, are given in the original Latin, a

translation and a redaction (for most).  The redactions, those that I looked

closely at, looked pretty good.


She also includes some great information about culinary history, food service,






Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:32:35 -0400

From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>

Subject: Re: SC - "Dining with William Shakespeare"


I have found it to be an excellent source, one that was recommended to me by one

of Atlantia's premier cooks.  It not only contains wonderful recipes, but it also has a lot of additional information about the foodways of the period.  Most of this information is integrated into the sections with the recipes themselves.

All of the recipes are given in their original form, followed by a redaction.

Most of the redactions seem to be quite reasonable.


However, finding a copy of the book to purchase is easier said than done.  I

finally got my own copy this past fall after searching for several years.  I

would up paying several times what the book originally cost, but consider the

money well-spent!  I feel certain, however, that the Library of Congress should

have a copy of it, and you should be able to borrow it on Inter Library Loan from them.  If you'd like, I can check with a friend of mine who works for the Library to see if they have the book and if it can be borrowed ILL.





Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:57:49 -0500 (CDT)

From: Jeff Heilveil <heilveil at uiuc.edu>

Subject: SC - Waffles and Books


Was hunting in the library today and found some interesting

books...  The Art of Dining by Sara Paston-Williams. It was originally

published by the national trust enterprises ltd. in 1993 and is

destributed in the US by Harry N. Abrams, Inc.  I REALLY like what I have

seen of this one so far.  She gives the original, along with the source

right in the open (along with the date written for those of us who can

never remember) and then her redactions (which aren't that great, but the

original is there) and any pictures she has found that are relevant.  She

also talks about dining practices, but I just got home from work and

haven't looked at it yet.  The book also covers some post-period

confections and beverages, but she is real clear about giving dates.  

However, there is a picture there that is intruiging... "A dutch kitchen

scene by Joachim de Beukelae painted in the 1550s" so there's this tray of

waffles, and a long handled waffle-iron like you could purchase for

camping...  Didn't know waffles were period.  It doesn't look like

pastilles (SP), just rectangles with a grid on it like a... waffle.  Do we

have any period recipes for the batter?  Looks like they are eating

flounder too, or at least some other flattened fish with both eyes on top

of the head...  There's also a loaf of bread with some need oval shapes

pressed into it.


The two other books I found I'll have to translate out of German, but I

will try to get a recipe or two done from one of them each day (err, well,

I did say I would TRY).

The one I am starting with is Kuchenmeysterey (Passau: Johann Petri, um

1486)  By Rolf Ehnert.  It's a small book, but a facsimile of the

Kuchenmeysterey with an afterword.  copywrite 1981.


The other is Wildu machen ayn guet essen.... by Doris Aichholzer.

Published by Peter Lang.  copywrite 1999.




Jeffrey Heilveil M.S.                  Ld. Bogdan de la Brasov, C.W.

Department of Entomology  A Bear's paw and base vert on field argent

University of Illinois                   


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